The Volokh Conspiracy
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Kurt Lash: "The Meaning and Ambiguity of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment"
"Section Three does not expressly (1) apply to future rebellions or insurrections, (2) apply to persons elected as President of the United States, (3) apply to persons seeking to qualify as a candidate for the Presidency, or (4) indicate whether the enforcement of Section Three requires the passage of enabling legislation."
Professor Kurt Lash has posted an important new paper to SSRN, titled "The Meaning and Ambiguity of Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment."
Here is the abstract of Kurt's article:
Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment disqualified anyone from serving in the House or Senate, or as a presidential elector, if they had betrayed their oath of fealty to United States and joined the Confederacy during the American Civil War. Whether Section Three accomplishes anything more remains unclear as a matter of history and ambiguous as a matter of constitutional text. Section Three does not expressly (1) apply to future rebellions or insurrections, (2) apply to persons elected as President of the United States, (3) apply to persons seeking to qualify as a candidate for the Presidency, or (4) indicate whether the enforcement of Section Three requires the passage of enabling legislation.
Prior drafts of Section Three included versions that expressly named the office of the President of the United States, expressly banned presidential candidates from qualifying as a candidate, and expressly applied to both past and future rebellions. Congress omitted all of this language from the final version of Section Three. This final language led the best lawyer in the House to assume that the text did not include the office of the President. Although a single member disagreed, their exchange went unreported in the press, leaving open the possibility that less sophisticated members of the public might also read the text as excluding the office of the President. The exclusion would not have been "absurd" since the Electors Clause ensured that only loyal electors could vote for the President.
Key framers and ratifiers also expressly insisted that Section Three would not be self-executing. As Thaddeus Stevens explained, Section Three "will not execute itself," and at least some participants in the ratifying assemblies expressly agreed (no one claimed otherwise). As far as future rebellions were concerned, the historical record reveals both framers and ratifiers dividing over the text's possible application to future insurrections. In sum, the historical record supports Jacob Howard's explanation of the original understanding and scope of Section Three: The provision was "intended to put some sort of stigma, some sort of odium upon the leaders of this rebellion, and no other way is left to do it but by some provision of this kind." Whether the public understood the ambiguous text as allowing for anything more remains historically unclear.
I welcome this new addition to the literature. Lash's article responds to recent publications by Will Baude and Mike Paulsen, Mark Graber, Gerard Magliocca, and others. Many of Kurt's findings are consistent with the arguments that Seth and I presented in our article. (We will post an updated version of our article, which is forthcoming in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, early next week).
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Kurt Lash, the clinger who teaches at PragerU?
Apparently so. Good catch. Thanks.
Whew -- now that we've dredged up some sort of mildly odious-sounding association, we can safely disregard what the man actually says without any pesky, inconvenient analysis. Ad hom is such a time saver!
This guy is the kind of right-wing asshole who voluntarily associates with the "educational institution" known as PragerU.
He's also the kind of fringe asshole who can't get enough mutual back-patting with Prof. Blackman.
You may see this as irrelevant, or as a feather in Prof. Lash's cap . . . but this blog purports to be an academic blog, making disclosure of a clinger's affiliation with PragerU relevant.
More ad hom to try to justify the first ad hom. Sounds like Charlie Brown's teachers.
Nothing wrong with calling a clinger a clinger. People deserve to know what they're dealing with, especially among advocates who use affiliations with legitimate law schools as a credential.
Ok, great -- you're a clinger.
[For any in doubt, just wait about 7.3 hours for Artie to get back to his regularly scheduled broadcast of wailing about how Eugene quite rightly put him in his place a decade ago.]
You mean, the thing Kirkland fabricated from 20 years ago that when challenged he always claims someone else could prove but not him?
Prof. Volokh admitted it. Essentially boasted about it. You might have missed it while your nose was pressed to his ass.
You may get another chance to see it soon enough. The Volokh Conspiracy may be less inhibited with respect to partisan censorship when the leader is working for wingnuts rather than trying to keep a job on a mainstream campus.
What do you think of UCLA quite rightly putting Prof. Volokh in his place (which is not on the UCLA campus)? Do you think the proprietor’s conduct with respect to this blog is part of the reason he is relocating to a position in the clingerverse?
Troll harder. You're still a nobody who pretends to have had a successful career, while Prof. Volokh actually has one, and no matter how many times you pretend he left UCLA involuntarily, it won't change those facts.
Jerry Sandusky? the disgraced Penn State Foo-Bawl Coach and Turd-Burglar?
I notice that the free speech clause of the First Amendment doesn't expressly apply to speech that might occur after the amendment was ratified. Perhaps after a deep dive into the legislative history of the amendment we could offer some guesses about whether the amendment was intended to cover such speech, but the text itself is as deeply ambiguous as the text of the Fourteenth Amendment.
There is no enforcement clause.
There's no Santa Claus, either.
Chico Marx didn't think so either.
No Sanity Clause.
Sure there is. Section 5 is the enforcement clause.
If originalism means the President isn't covered by Art. 3, so much the worse for originalism.
(I reserve judgment on whether any specific person is disqualified for the Presidency, and maybe this disclaimer can get people to avoid the But Trump clause of the Constitution)
Instead of rummaging through Congressional or convention debates or newspaper editorials, even if we admit that the language admits of multiple interpretations, why not choose the interpretation by which a person who is excluded from serving as a postmaster is likewise excluded from serving as President?
Common-good constitutionalism is looking better and better every day.
(See previous thread)
Their concerns, to the extent that they were about more than just punishing rebel leaders, were directed at disloyal segments of the people electing disloyal people. No one could become president, though, without the North voting for them.
And for reasons the people of the time understood far more palpably than you or I, ol' Jeff Davis wasn't getting any Northern votes.
Well, if you want to get even more specific about subjective intent, they were targeting prominent ex-Confederates.
So logically, then, Victor Berger should never have been excluded from the House of Representatives because he’d never been a Confederate. Nor should anyone in the 21st century be excluded from office under Section 3.
Yet it’s expressed in language broad enough to cover major insurrectionists in general, not merely certain Confederates.
And if we can go beyond the subjective intent in that regard, we can go beyond it in disqualifying certain prominent insurrectionists for President.
Since the language is at best vague, I think we’re entitled to pick the interpretation which is more just.
And which is more just –
-saying that conduct which would exclude someone from being elected to a City Council would still allow the same person to serve as President?
or
-saying that whatever is dangerous enough to the republic to keep him off the City Council is dangerous enough to keep him out of the White House (unless pardoned by Congress)?
Speaking of specific intent, I’m not saying Trump is an insurrectionist, the jury is still out – or rather, the literal jury hasn’t been convened yet.
So much for "textualism"
The best answer is given by the text: "No person...shall hold any office ... under the United States, or under any State...".
Being a Senator or Representative did not make one an officer of anything. Electors, likewise weren't officers. And disbarred persons could still be elected to state legislatures. So (a)federal offices, (b) state offices, and (c) certain non-office positions are covered. The presidency and vice presidency are included in (a).
Likewise, there is a parallel construction argument: No one could seriously conclude that "under any State" fails to include governorships, as the holders of these would both possess great prestige (I say this for those who view the amendment as punitive) and enormous power to engage in mischief - most notably control over the state militia. It is proper then to say that the preceding phrase "under the United States" encompasses the Presidency.
As far as its activation, it is certainly possible that it is self-executing while also lacking the means of federally controlled enforcement. States have no obligation to keep a candidate off a presidential ballot, nor an obligation to keep members of the electoral college from voting for an ineligible person.
Federal courts do not possess the authority to reject an elector's vote, as challenges are limited to votes "[ir]regularly cast". The question is fundamentally political. It would fall to the Congress to decline to seat an ineligible person, and given the stakes, the ineligibility must be clear beyond reasonable doubt. In the real world, such a person simply would not get elected unless they were also someone highly deserving of having disability removed.
The people will decide – and that is as it should be.
Just in case it needs to be said:
In the unlikely but still very possible event that one of the major parties manages to nominate a certain bloated infantile self-worshiping peach, he will lose the general election. BIGLY.
After all, the last one to run lost by 11 million votes. This one could only do worse.
And that would be a great result. What would not be is disabling a political opponent you couldn't remove, twice, because you couldn't convince his supporters he was so bad he needed to go (like Clinton, unlike Nixon) as an end run to deny democracy, is not democracy at all.
I don't care, but I am not the one screaming democracy uber alles in all other contexts.
"Self-executing" translates as "any yokel can do it", concensus be damned. It is a massively fraudulent power grab and lie.
Must have missed it, pretty sure Hillary Rodman Clinton lost in 0-16
Not according to her and her flying monkeys.
I think we've beaten this subject to death, reanimated the corpse, and killed it again. Is there anything new being presented here?
I don’t know, the dumbness of this argument seems a bit novel to me.
It isn't actually beaten to death until the Supreme Court has administered the coup due grace.
And perhaps not even then, after all, the Supreme Court has very clearly killed the "there is only a right to bear arms in a militia" theory to death, and lit the corpse on fire, but sure as shooting you'll still see people asserting it here, and in Congress, and on every conceivable editorial platform.
I've heard that restrictions on first trimester abortions were beaten to death by the Supreme Court in 1973; how did that work out over the next five decades?
When the Supreme Court is forced to moderate (whether by expansion, replacement or something else), you can expect plenty of currently burning corpses to turn out to have actually only suffered a flesh wound.
I expect enlargement (and continuing American progress) to solve most of the problems associated with the current Supreme Court.
Gun nuts, anti-abortion absolutists, old-timey bigots, and religious kooks hardest hit.
See, you make my point for me: legal topics may well get beaten to death here and throughout legal blogs, articles, and law journals.
But they are ever ready to rise from the grave.
Your point is correct; even the Supreme Court cannot permanently dispense with anything, demonstrated even in the time of greater regard for precedent than the current Court.
My point is to expect that opponents of gun rights overreach will battle in the same way that opponents of abortion rights did; and they have an advantage in public opinion that will steadily increase disapproval of the Supreme Court.
Let's state that a little more honestly, shall we?
Since Section 3 neither expressly applies nor expressly denies application to [propositions 1, 2, 3, or 4], I'm going to go on as if that means the first of the two conditions must be what it really says!
Josh: Count me in!
Well I'm certainly disagree that Section 3 does not apply to future insurrections.
Congress knew how to read and write the English language, and while the language does use pastence: 'have previously sworn an oath" and 'shall have engaged in an insurrection'; but that seems a thin reed to base the assertion that Section 3 is only retrospective because you can only be punished for events that have already happened. Most criminal statutes use similar language.
However, by the same token they would hardly explicitly list electors, Senators, and Congressmen as excluded offices if they wanted to include the President and VP. It that certainly makes to theleow in a catch all for minor "Offices Under the United States", but not the two highest offices in the land.
Of course it applies to future insurrections. But those are obvious, not drum beating hyperbole on the news by motivated partisans.
"shall have engaged" is the future perfect tense describing something that, at a point in the future, will be in the past.
It does expressly include future events, in fact it often suggests that the event hasn't yet occurred at the time when the statement is made. "By this time next year I will have written my novel" implies I haven't written it yet. Hypertextualism taken to this extreme would argue for the absurd conclusion that Section 3 applies only to future insurrections.
I think that's one of those cases where if everyone and their mother believed the rule they were making covered something, it does, even if the text technically contradicts it.
Now if only there had been an "insurrection" all of this might be important.
January 6th has been declared an insurrection by the New Mexico Supreme Court, the January 6th Committee, Mitch McConnell, the President of the United States and many, many others. (I told you that a month ago, Bumble; you should seek medical care whether you're having delusions or memory issues.)
You forgot to mention the Queen, Nige and SarcastrO.
Quite a list you have there; however, none of them matter and to date I don't believe anyone anywhere has been charged with participating in an "insurrection".
The New Mexico Supreme Court specifically considered the case of a public official who participated in January 6th, and who was disqualified from office by the Fourteenth Amendment because of participation in that insurrection. That mattered for that one official, certainly.
Lots of criminal things happen without anyone getting charged for them, or with people being charged for lesser offenses; that they are not convicted doesn't mean the crime didn't happen. But Bumble is mistaken that nobody was so charged; Trump was impeached for inciting an insurrection; the House passed the impeachment 232-197, and the Senate voted 57-43 (with some Republicans voting against it because of the procedural issue that Trump was no longer in office, not because he didn't do it or that it wasn't an insurrection) to convict, a majority but not the required two thirds.
Bumble thinks that the President, the Senate, the House and state Supreme Courts matter no more than Volokh Conspiracy commenters; not that Bumble had any reputation left to shred.
Let's not overlook the important and beautiful point that the worthless, un-American assholes who participated in the attack on our Capitol are continuing to receive four-, seven, and ten-year terms in federal prisons, vindicating accountability, justice, and the American way.
Let's hope those losers get to serve the hardest time possible.
The NM Supreme Court denied cert, I recall. The decision is really only that of a single NM judge (no jury), involving a guy who failed to raise certain arguments in his briefs, and therefore forfeited them. And the judge explicitly used a preponderance of the evidence standard to address the matter, without explaining why that standard is appropriate.
And the House Managers insisted that dereliction of duty was built into the charge, which is why it wasn't separate. If willful failure to put down what was happening was impeachable on its own, it didn't matter whether the events amounted to insurrection (They did, but only for those who were actually intending to physically stop the counting); Trump still would have committed an impeachable offense.
...and no matter what the charge, he was tried by the Senate and acquitted.
As I noted, the Senate fell short of the 67 needed, but still had 57; and many Republicans who voted against impeachment did so because Trump was already out of office, among them Mitch McConnell who called it an insurrection. Impeaching for inciting an insurrection would seem to be harder to get votes for than just a resolution that there was an insurrection, and yet got majority votes in both House and Senate.
...and as I noted: There was no insurrection!
Bumble should take it up with Nameless But Highly Opinionated:
although not with respect to Trump, only those actually present, so I guess Bumble doesn't care.
With Bumble as the sole authority against the insurrection, the fact of the insurrection is pretty much without challenge.
So to recap: Your authority for claiming there was an “Insurrection” on Jan.6 is:
The failure of the New Mexico SC to grant cert on an appeal of a lower court decision keeping a local official off the ballot.
A failed impeachment.
A statement by Cocaine Mitch.
The opinion of Nameless.
Priceless.
Majority of the House; majority of the Senate; the President; the New Mexico court system; various plurality or majority of the country, depending on the poll.
On the other side, Bumble's opinion.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
The idea that there is some precedential fact finding value from proceedings where they were 10 votes short of conviction is absurd.
Yeah, I get that Trump worshipers don't acknowledge majorities. It's why they did an insurrection.
A14S3 is unConstitutional in sprit and was a reaction by the now growing Administrative State, a.k.a. Deep State ( a misnomer for those inclined to ancient notions of what government should be ).
While guarding the Republic with words like treason and such, this country was founded upon those very actions - Rebellion, therefore any laws or other to forbid our founding bedrock goes against the founding itself. Likewise Law itself is contradictory to the establishment of any government based on Freedom.
To the notion of A14S3 being valid today is laughable since no actions by the accused person in question has occurred. In fact the very words by the purported current occupier of the White House points to that person, clearly so, as one who A14S3 applies to - "We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States" - such actions stated are clearly Treasonous.
Today's moments point to future events for which all must be ready for. Thus, as the current Biden Regime is the aggressor in an Insurrection, returning lawfulness to this country is patriotic, even as I have stated LAW being contraindicated.
Yeah, a Constitutional Amendment is unconstitutional because of the hidden text in the Spirit Constitution saying Rebellion is cool and good and Freedom.
This kind of sovcit stuff is pretty dull, actually. Just don't shoot anyone please.
Today in Supreme Court History
Doe v. Gonzalez, 546 U.S. 1301 (decided October 7, 2005): Ginsburg denies emergency stay because appeal in Second Circuit is being expedited, but grants motion to file briefs under seal; discusses the case at length; librarian contested FBI order to disclose browsing history associated with a certain IP address which also ordered him not to reveal order or reveal his identity; issue was whether this prior restraint (authorized by statute) violated First Amendment; identity had already been inadvertently revealed by District Court web site and PACER (case was dismissed as moot, 449 F.3d 415)
Thanks! I'm glad to see that we had not reached the end of SCOTUS history.
If you're really interested why don't you visit the capt's site where he posts these daily?
I have done so; the opportunity to discuss with Volokh Conspiracy commenters is not available there (useless as Bumble comments always are).
And hey, let’s not forget how satisfying it must feel that he’s resumed hijacking Josh’s posts (and only Josh's posts) for his own serial publication. The fact that now his subject matter is completely off-topic to the original post is likely an extra bonus.
You probably didn't attend law school, Life of Brian, so you don't have the ability to recognize how shoddy the "scholarship" offered by Profs. Barnett and Blackman at Today in Supreme Court History was.
Don't let that stop you from trying to defend them, of course.
Kirkland: Proud graduate of the Queen's school of obfuscation and dissembling.
You probably didn’t attend law school
LOL, Artie — project much?
Let’s just say that I learned far prior to law school how to cut through vitriolic braying and see the basic flaws in an argument. Here, for example, your (or anybody’s) thoughts on the quality of a given post on this blog has precisely squadoosh to do with whether it’s appropriate to hijack such posts on a daily basis as a de facto personal blog.
Each Today in Supreme Court History post was the same year after year, regardless of the (in)significance of the event and with no correction of any errors reported. Blackman posts have typically drawn a lot of harsh comments about Blackman; if he actually read the comments, I imagine he might prefer off-topic comments.
Some of the conspirators do respond in comments, so maybe they will express a preference. Some of the posts draw no comments, so it would not seem that much harm would be done. Perhaps Eugene will extend open threads as a daily practice; now with two per week, they still get rather long. A daily semi-open thread, perhaps with a general topic, might be beneficial, if only to keep comments under other posts more on topic; that's essentially what Today in Supreme Court History became.
When describing the scholarship as shoddy, I was referring more to the ample error (which was a signature element of Today in Supreme Court History) than to (1) the repetitiveness or (2) the substantial lack of relevance to the Supreme Court.
Start your own blog. Maybe join up with the capt and invite Kirkland along for the ride.
As the good Captain has already admitted, his own blog doesn't get [m]any eyeballs (I scrolled for a while and didn't see a single comment on a post), which I guess is all the justification he feels like he needs to appropriate random VC threads. To each according to their need &c.
Since your extensive comment was constrained to the original, now apparently discontinued daily SC posts, I take it you agree that it's tacky and inappropriate to just start commandeering other, random Blackman posts instead?
My post discussed Today in Supreme Court History posts, Blackman posts in general, other posts where conspirators respond in comments, and the possibility of more numerous semi-open threads.
Sorry you couldn't get past the first sentence.
The issue was whether Today in Supreme Court History constituted shoddy scholarship. If you wish to try to defend the chronically, sometimes laughably shitty work of Profs. Barnett and Blackman, take your best shot.
Nah, that was your attempted distraction from the issue of whether it's tacky to use the comments section in someone else's blog as your own spinoff blogette. It's both clear and unsurprising that you have nothing of value to contribute to that topic.
It was my declaration that Today in Supreme Court History constituted low-grade scholarship. That is the important issue.
If Eugene Volokh isn't going to enforce comments being on topic, you don't get to instead. Flag comments you don't like and we'll see if anything happens.
You and Bumble are just grumpuses.
Meh -- why don't you do the world a favor and pull your lip over your head and swallow.
Grumpus response.
Right back atcha, oh search engine allergic one. We’ll see if anyone else gets it.
You quoted Grumpy Old Men; I don’t see why “Grumpus response.” would not be a perfectly appropriate response from someone who recognized the reference.
Magister:
A pity! It would be good to have you and the other useful (ahem) commenters there. Suggestions as to how to jazz up the site are welcome.
My intention is to continue to post these “today in SC history” comments every day here, on the first post of the day, whether it’s related to the substance of the post or not, and regardless of which VC’er posts it.
Replying to Magister.
See the capt’s comment above and give him a helping hand.
A note that I came across this post while doing some reading on the Fourteenth Amendment.
But the reason to post is to say "thank you" to Reason for the ability to Mute users. Providing the ability to mute jealous, tedious, infatuated, and rude posters is appreciated. Thanks!