The Volokh Conspiracy
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Was There Standing in 303 Creative?
The Court had ample reason to find a "credible threat" of enforcement, consistent with existing case law.
This series of posts, written by Prof. Richard Re (Virginia), is based on his draft article, "Does the Discourse on 303 Creative Portend a Standing Realignment," which is forthcoming in the Notre Dame Law Review Reflection.
In my first post, I critically discussed some popular objections to 303 Creative v. Elenis and noted that case law established a "credible threat" test for standing. Now, I'd like to explore the issue of standing more extensively. Was the credible threat test satisfied in 303 Creative? Here's an edited excerpt from my paper:
Drawing on the court of appeals decision below … the Court adduced three reasons why the threat facing the designer [plaintiff Lorie Smith] was credible. First, "Colorado has a history of past enforcement against nearly identical conduct." This factor is very powerful. If someone has done something and been enforced against, that would seem to make it credible that a new person would suffer enforcement for similar conduct.
Second, "anyone in the State may file a complaint against Ms. Smith and initiate 'a potentially burdensome administrative hearing' process." So, even if most or nearly all people in Colorado would decline to initiate enforcement against the designer, it would only take one person to initiate proceedings and generate alleged censorship. This too seems like a significant point in favor of standing.
Third, "Colorado [has] decline[d] to disavow future enforcement proceedings" against the plaintiff. With the case pending at the Court, the State was obviously well aware of what the plaintiff had in mind and could have put everyone at ease by disavowing any interest in enforcement – as sometimes does happen as late as oral argument. Yet Colorado declined to do so. Instead, the State stayed conspicuously quiet about whether it would enforce. Given the circumstances, that silence speaks loudly. Who wouldn't view the threat as very credible indeed?
The Court then wrapped up: "Before us, no party challenges these conclusions." The dissent, too, declined to take any issue with this persuasive and largely undisputed analysis.
If any justice or party before the Court had managed to cast doubt on these conclusions, there was even more that the majority could have said. As the dissent pointed out at length, the designer wanted to issue a notice on her website that she would not provide her services in connection with same-sex weddings. In other words, the designer wanted to advertise what many, many people—including the dissenters—would view as a policy of express, invidious discrimination. Isn't it not just credible or likely, but extremely likely that the State of Colorado would take the same view? Wouldn't many people on the left be outraged if the State took no action in the face of such a declaration?
And it turns outs that the designer's right to post the notice depended in part on her right to turn away work relating to same-sex marriage. Whether you have a right to advertise a certain activity often depends on whether you can legally perform the activity. For example, First Amendment doctrine cares whether an advertisement regards unlawful discrimination or a restriction in restraint of trade, as opposed to voting and politics. That point carries over to 303 Creative. As the majority put it, "Ms. Smith's Communication Clause challenge" (that is, her claim to post the notice) "hinges on her Accommodation Clause challenge" (that is, her claim to turn away work regarding same-sex marriages). Thus, the designer's standing to challenge the notice effectively entitled her to adjudication of whether she had a right to turn away work expressing support for same-sex marriage.
Some sophisticated critics of 303 Creative have argued that the decision reflects a kind of double standard or inconsistency. Liberal claimants challenging things like Texas's restrictive abortion laws end up not being heard, whereas conservative claimants do. In various forms, this kind of criticism is very old and quite plausible. Justices on both the left and the right sometimes find standing where doing so seems convenient in light of their merits views.
In light of what I have argued, however, this kind of allegation is inapt as applied to 303 Creative. This is a case where the existing rules were followed. Leading cases in the area are unanimous. And no appellate judge—whether of the right or the left—disputed standing in 303 Creative itself. So this critique alone cannot explain, much less justify, the intense jurisdictional criticism leveled in this case.
Other critics have focused on SBA List v. Driehaus, arguing that it's distinguishable from 303 Creative. SBA List involved a group that spoke out against an electoral candidate. Under state law, any private person could initiate enforcement actions against false public speech, and the criticized candidate did so. Once the candidate's election ended, the enforcement action was dismissed as moot, but the group (SBA List) sought prospective relief against future enforcement actions in connection with future speech. The Supreme Court unanimously concluded that SBA List had standing, and for reasons that should sound familiar. The group faced a "credible threat" of future enforcement actions that could be initiated by any number of persons in response to the group's future speech. On its face, then, SBA List seems to support standing in 303 Creative.
Critics have pointed out that the plaintiff in SBA List had already been the target of an enforcement action, whereas the designer in 303 Creative hadn't been. Under precedents like City of Los Angeles v. Lyons, however, personal enforcement history in itself isn't relevant to the availability of prospective relief. At most, that kind of personal history is one potential way of establishing a credible threat in the future. And that is precisely why SBA List pointed to it: what the plaintiff had to show was a "history of past enforcement," full stop. It just so happened that the plaintiff in SBA List made that key showing by pointing to its own experiences. While the designer in 303 Creative didn't have that particular type of evidence of a credible threat, she had other evidence, as discussed above. So this distinction, while true, doesn't make a material difference.
I don't want to overstate the foregoing points. A good-faith judge could read SBA List narrowly, or otherwise construe case law to avoid standing in 303 Creative. Even so, a good-faith judge could certainly decline to distinguish or narrow the relevant precedents. And agreement on that is enough to let the Court off the hook for most of the jurisdictional criticism it has received.
But legal arguments about standing formed only part of the case against jurisdiction in 303 Creative. Factual concerns also played an important part—as discussed in my next post.
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"Whether you have a right to advertise a certain activity often depends on whether you can legally perform the activity. "
"Often" is the operative term here. In discrimination law, not always. The Fair Housing Act exempts the sale of single family homes from its prohibitions, or the renting of rooms in small owner-occupied dwellings. 42 USC sect. 3603(b). But Section 3604(c) prohibits advertising any discriminatory preference (including for an exempt dwelling). Challenges have been made to the constitutionality of that as applied to exempt dwellings, but, as far as I'm aware, without success.
Interesting. So it looks like every flyer that says "Female roommate wanted" is actually illegal.
When the movie Single White Female came out in the mid-1990s, lawyers pointed out that you can't do that. ("SWF" was from the personals, not the apartment rental classifieds.)
See the Ninth Circuit's Roommate.com decision, which suggests that there's a constitutional right to discriminate in choosing a roommate, and that federal housing law should be interpreted as exempting such discrimination (and advertising expressing such preferences as to roommates).
Drat! I thought I could get me some of those sweet, sweet qui tam damages rooting out all those retrograde misogynists.
Ah, but see, Seeberger v. Davenport Civ. Rights Comm'n, 918 NW2d 502, 2018 Iowa App Lexis 361 at *13 (Iowa Ct. App. 2018) (state analogue to 3604(c) is constitutional because it advances the interest in preventing discriminatory statements). In an older case, United States v. Hunter, 324 F. Supp. 529, 534 (D. Md. 1971) held similarly. So the law is hardly clear.
303 Creative is a First Amendment case, with the relaxed overbreadth doctrine, whereas the Supreme Court never adopted the overbreadth doctrine for abortion cases. The case fits the overbreadth doctrine.
But absent the overbreadth doctrine, there seems to be a serious fact dispute whether the plaintiffs actually had a viable business or would hace ever actually done the activity leading to the lawsuit if the law hadn’t been there.
We'll never know what Lorie "would have ever actually done" but for the existence of the law, at least in the past.
But even if we could know, that knowledge (or way or the other) probably shouldn't effect the legal analysis.
Whether this was really a "fake" or "made up" case in a legal sense is different than if it is in a practical sense. It might be practically "made up" if Lorie never makes any credible effort to pursue her non-gay wedding website business. I haven't seen any news about what she has done since the ruling, but if a few years go by and she has made no credible effort to pursue the non-gay wedding website business, then I'd say that the case was practically "made up". But that still shouldn't effect the legal analysis.
It matters legally a great deal. If you don’t actually do the activity the law prohibits, you have no risk or threat at all, credible of otherwise, of being injured by the law. That means you don’t have standing.
I don’t agree with Dilan Esper on everything here. But I do agree the plaintiffs in this case represented that they intend to operate a certain business, and that representation was central to their standing claim. If, having won their case in the Supreme Court, they don’t now proceed with that business, they either have a good explanation for what thwarted them, or they’ve perjured themselves.
And if they've perjured themselves, there's a serious problem with the process that allowed them and their lawyers to obtain a hugely consequential carve-out of the civil rights laws based on a case where standing was generated through perjury.
" they either have a good explanation for what thwarted them, or they’ve perjured themselves."
Or she changed her mind because of hysterical overreactions like Dilan's.
Changing your mind and filing a false affidavit are different.
Sure, but saying you changed your mind is not going to be particularly credible in this situation.
Why not?
I mean, something tells me that if Roe had gotten her injunction in time and changed her mind, you wouldn't be screaming that she perjured herself.
A pregnancy is as different from this as an apple is from a battleaxe.
"If, having won their case in the Supreme Court, they don’t now proceed with that business, they either have a good explanation for what thwarted them, or they’ve perjured themselves."
I don't think that's how the criminal process works.
(FWIW if a prosecution were brought and a jury didn't believe her story as to why she changed her mind, the perjury charge would probably stick.)
What's the prima facia case? That she said she had an intention to do something, and a few years later didn't do it?
1. Lorrie Smith is not credible. She says she will serve gay couples but just won't write an announcement celebrating a gay wedding. Why should we ever allow her into court with that posture absent actual evidence that she indeed hews to that?
2. Lorrie Smith is also not credible because she and her lawyers lied in court documents about what requests she allegedly did receive. Why not force her to prove her standing before adjudicating her constitutional claim? Take her deposition. Make her say under oath exactly what she will do. And then if she violates it in any way, prosecute her for perjury- and let her know that she WILL be prosecuted for perjury if she does not tell the entire truth. See what she says under oath and under cross-examination.
3. There is no probability of ANYTHING here. There's no evidence that any gay person wants anything to do with Lorrie Smith's sorry-ass no customer homophobic business. And there's no evidence that Colorado would actually prosecute her if she did. So why are we letting her and her lawyers go into court strip gays of their statutory rights?
The reason the Left reacted to standing in this case is because it was a phony case concocted by lawyers who didn't want to put an actual plaintiff up there who might be subject to cross-examination establishing their homophobia. And there's no reason the American legal system should have let them get away with that.
I should add one other thing. The notice on the website was unprotected speech under the Pittsburgh Press case. So the notion that it creates standing to challenge the underlying regulation is specious. IF Colorado had told her to take down the notice (which it didn't), she could have challenged that (and should have lost her challenge under Pittsburgh Press, because advertising your intent to discriminate isn't protected speech).
But even then, that shouldn't give her standing to litigate the underlying right to discriminate against a customer. Without an actual customer that she discriminates against, that claim is purely hypothetical- and her lawyers wanted to keep it that way and keep her out of the witness chair, lest she be exposed as a homophobe.
Thank you for mentioning the Pittsburgh Press decision.
You know other people can read cases, too, right? From Pittsburgh Press:
"The illegality in this case may be less overt, but we see no difference in principle here. Sex discrimination in nonexempt employment has been declared illegal under [*389] § 8 (a) of the Ordinance, a provision not challenged here. And § 8 (e) of the Ordinance forbids any employer, employment agency, or labor union to publish or cause to be published any advertisement "indicating" sex discrimination. This, too, is unchallenged. Moreover, the Commission specifically concluded that it is an unlawful employment practice for an advertiser to cause an employment advertisement to be published in a sex-designated column."
The plaintiff in 303 challenged the legality of the act being described. The premise of the argument was that the advertisement saying they wouldn't provide services for same-sex weddings was protected speech. This is literally what Re says in the article.
Since when is advertising your intent to discriminate legal under Colorado state law?
Since the 14th Amendment applied the First Amendment to the states.
I don't understand your response. The excerpt from Pittsburgh Press obviously suggests that if the newspaper challenged the underlying restrictions, the analysis would be different. They didn't mention the lack of such a challenge twice for no reason. The 303 plaintiff challenged the underlying restriction, which if found to be invalid, was an unconstitutional restraint on speech.
"A provision not challenged here" does not mean "just challenge it and you win the case".
But it does suggest that what would happen if it were challenged remains an open question and might in the future be decided differently.
You guys are reading a heck of a lot into a throwaway phrase.
>There’s no evidence that any gay person wants anything to do with Lorrie Smith’s sorry-ass no customer homophobic business.
Like no gay person wanted anything to do with Masterpiece Cakeshop? Only they did.
You don't get standing by osmosis.
Maybe you do if you claim a disability.
And yet, every court that heard this case didn't question her standing, and neither did the defendant. That's some might powerful lying skills Lorrie Smith posses, to flummox the opposition from discovery all the way to SCOTUS.
So what?
There are literally lots of examples of cases where standing was found by multiple courts and rejected by SCOTUS, for instance.
In how many of those cases did the defendant not raise standing as an issue?
It's happened. Standing is subject matter jurisdiction and the parties raising it is literally irrelevant.
I am personally fine with living in a world in which gay people can get married but nobody is required to bake them a cake. It's a big enough world for both of them.
I also understand why not everyone takes that live and let live approach, though. It's simply a natural human reaction to being disrespected. If there were a bakery that openly refused to serve whites, or Christians, or Jews, or people born under the sign of Virgo, there would be people in every one of those groups who would make an issue of it and try to force their way in. Nobody likes being told "I'm better than you," which is what such a ban is.
Masterpiece Cakeshop had the advantage of, you know, actually baking wedding cakes. Whereas Lorrie Smith didn't actually make wedding websites, so it does indeed make it unlikely a gay couple might want to use that fictional service that she did not provide.
I think her lawyers realized this was a problem. That’s why the fake affidavit about the gay couple surfaced during the appeal
Yeah. The importance of the fake customer inquiry isn't "there's absolutely no way to find standing without the inquiry" (obviously SCOTUS did, whether I like it or not) but "these guys submitted a questionable customer inquiry because they understood that it was fairly doubtful that their client actually was ever going to do anything that drew a prosecution and needed to shore up their case". Which tells you a lot about the actual state of standing here.
"fake affidavit about the gay couple"
Oh, its been established it was "fake"?
Not to your satisfaction I’m sure. It’s clearly a manufactured lawsuit whether you want to admit it here or not (I suspect you know deep down this is the case). Carry on with your bullshit and make sure not to say anything mean on obit posts. Only bad people do that.
Apparently not to the State of Colorado's satisfaction either. I mean, nobody's been charged or sanctioned or anything, right? The manufactured stuff is just smoke people blow on the internet.
https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2023/jun/29/supreme-court-lgbtq-document-veracity-colorado
With all due apologies to Matt and Trey:
1. British rag runs "something's fishy!" story.
2. ????
3. CLEARLY FAKE!
Oy vey. Believe whatever you want. This poor woman just wanted to make wedding websites and the gays started beating down her door wanting her to endorse their sinful ways. Give me a break! Are you really this credulous in real life or just on the internet?
As is typical, you're actually the one who must hold an exquisitely specifically formed belief to make your worldview work. There are endless potential origins of a message submitted via an anonymous web form, but only one -- Lorie Smith or someone at her direction deliberately submitting a phony message to her own website -- has the effect you're looking for.
Reading the current rendition of the contact page on her website, it looks like the completely unsurprising happened and activists used it as a dumping ground. I personally think it'd be pretty damn deliciously ironic if one of them ended up torpedoing the outcome they wanted by playing an Autumn Scardina and submitting the harassing inquiry in question. But sadly, we'll probably never know for sure.
She should lose anyways. Discrimination against gay people can be a personal belief but if you operate a business open to the public it is not acceptable in the country I want to live in. And I have bad news for you— a majority of people in America agree with me. What are you going to do about that?
I'm going to start by gently chuckling at this effort to find comfort (and perhaps a twinge of yappy-dog bravado) from some indescript and generally self-fulfilling polling effort, presumably to try to compensate for the mental devastation that has arisen from the latest perceived failure of the Supremes to adequately curb wrongspeak.
Then I'm back to the real world to work with people who generally prefer to work together to solve actual problems rather than constantly wearing their societal grudges on their sleeves and trying to provoke tribalistic conflicts.
"Key document may be fake in LGBTQ+ rights case before US supreme court"
So it hasn't even been established to the satisfaction of the Guardian headline writers?
Believe what you want.
An affidavit surfaced during the appeal (not in the complaint) stating that the nascent website business REALLY DID get one (1) inquiry from a gay couple. Reached by phone, the person named in the affidavit denied knowing anything about it.
It’s manufactured standing.
Even if she has standing, she should lose, see Dilan Esper below.
1. The affidavit had nothing to do with the finding that there was standing.
2. There's no evidence that the affidavit was fake, although there is evidence that the inquiry didn't come from the person it was purported to have come from.
I mean, you're forced to link to an article that says, "Key document may be fake " to support your claim that the document was clearly fake?
“1. The affidavit had nothing to do with the finding that there was standing.“
See dilan above.
“ 2. There’s no evidence that the affidavit was fake, although there is evidence that the inquiry didn’t come from the person it was purported to have come from.”
Oh. So it was a fake inquiry?
"Oh. So it was a fake inquiry?"
I have no idea. You guys are the ones making a claim, not me.
"See dilan above."
Neither Dilan, nor you, have supported your premise.
Think about what you are defending. In twenty years you are going to look so foolish. Discrimination against gay people is abhorrent. Just try to be empathetic for 5 seconds.
I see from your pathetic response you don't have credible evidence that the affidavit was "fake".
You know the story I’m referring to. Read it or don’t. Let’s not play these games, dipshit.
Just insults with you.
Your evidence is a denial to a left wing paper by a man afraid of being called a "homophobe". That does not "establish" anything.
Believe whatever you want.
by a man afraid of being called a “homophobe”.
Believe whatever you want
Still left wondering why the state of Colorado never raised any of that at any level for this case. Instead they agreed to the stipulations.
Oh, and even homophobic people have the right not to have government compel their speech. That’s what all you people seem to be missing, like protected class status is somehow a super-duper precedent, sacrosanct, and can override any other competing constitutional claim.
If you're "still wondering" about that fact, then you're ignorant of the case and timeline and have no business commenting until you educate yourself on those matters.
The fact that the alleged customer inquiry was a fabrication did not come out until after the case was resolved.
So what? Colorado litigated the case poorly. Litigating a case poorly does not confer standing.
Well, it might if the way you litigate it poorly is by stipulating to facts that confer standing.
I have often disagreed with Justice Alito on the proper interpretation of the Religion Clauses and other religion matters. But the attitude Dilan Esper projects in his comments here – his comments clearly communicate a sense that the plaintiffs in this case are revolting scum, criminals, frauds, complely disgusting, subhuman – goes a long towards explaining where Justice Alito is coming from.
I think Justice Alito’s constant projection of a sense of grievance and victimhood is generally unjustified. But if he wants justfication, all he has to do is to pull out Mr. Esper’s comments and attach them as Exhibit A, and he has his proof.
Yes, a plaintiff in every federal case has to show standing. Yes, if we take away overbreadth these plaintiffs might not have enough evidence to prove their case. Yes, conservative lawyers seeking to challenge Colorodo’s law might have been wiser to find plaintiffs with more evidence of skin in the game. But no, that doesn’t make these plaintiffs frauds, scum, or contemptible.
Frankly, if Mr. Esper serves in a commission deciding a controversial religion matter, his attitudes render any decision the commission might make vulnerable to summary reversal under Masterpiece Cakeshop. And he might want to consider Justice Sottomeyor’s advice in her concurrence in that case about how one ought to conduct oneself in these matters.
That’s complete bunk.
Catholics and right-wing Protestants have every right to have wrongful prejudices against gays, which they would characterize as prejudices against sinful acts. They have a First Amendment right to hold those prejudices, AND to express them, and if we actually had a case where, say, a state human rights commission tried to prohibit homophobic speech, you would see me defend, strongly and decisively, the Christian speakers. Period.
But that doesn’t make them not homophobic. And furthermore, it doesn’t make the act of wanting a carve-out from antidiscrimination laws so that you can operate your business in a discriminatory fashion not homophobic. The reason people do that is because they hate gay people and want to exclude them from what they consider to be reputable society.
And to be clear, NONE OF THAT is actually compelled by religion. Nothing in Christian religion says “Thou Shalt Not Serve Gay People” or “Thou Shalt Not Offer Services To Weddings of People Engaging In Sin”. That’s not commanded in any way.
The desire to do this comes from hatred of gay people. It’s evil. The people who do this have the right to be evil. They shouldn’t, however, have the right to operate a commercial business and insist on an exemption from the laws the rest of us have to follow, just as a racist has the right to be racist but shouldn’t get an exemption from anti-discrimination laws in the operation of a business.
And the rest of us should always condemn anti-gay bias. Again,, this is truly evil. Indeed, the hatred of gay people has been one of the most virulent and disgusting prejudices in history. It has led to mass murder in the past, and to absolutely despicable beliefs such as wishing people died of AIDS.
And you know what is worse? These evil, disgusting, immoral bigots have the gall to claim that the Creator of the Universe wants them to discriminate, and condemns me for thinking people should be treated equally and sexual orientation is irrelevant to whether someone should provide a service to you.
This isn’t bias. Again, I can be completely fair. They have First Amendment rights, and I respect them. But they also have to play by the legal rules, and that includes not committing perjury to win their cases (a sin that, I might add, would actually send them to Hell under their religious beliefs, unlike maintaining a nondiscrimination policy), not making up standing when they don’t have it, and (it should have been) servicing all customers despite whatever moral objections they have.
Also, to say something more broadly, so much of the fight over exemptions to anti-discrimination laws is really a fight about legitimacy. When we had the civil rights revolution, not only did we pass laws prohibiting discrimination but also society came to (correctly) disrespect racists, including racists who claimed a religious justification for racism. The Southern Baptists and Mormons had to eventually change their racist policies and doctrines, Bob Jones got one vote at the Supreme Court for mantaining tax exempt segregation, etc. Quite beyond discrimination law, if you ran into a "whites only" business in 2023 most people would consider that totally unacceptable.
So much of what these cases are really about is that religiously motivated homophobes do not want to suffer the fate of religiously motivated racists. They know they've lost the gay marriage fight and most of the gay rights fight, but they at least want to maintain the notion that it is totally respectable and a matter of conscience to hold a religiously motivated hatred for gay people. That's what they are fighting so hard for.
And whether they like it or not, that DOES make them just like Bob Jones and Ollie's Barbecue and all the other people who resisted the antidiscrimination principle. They ARE going to be treated as bigots. People are going to shun them, just like they shun racist businesses. It's not going to be seen as some respectable matter of conscience.
That has nothing to do with bias. It's just the reality of a changing society that recognized that something that a lot of religious conservatives are deeply invested in is in fact deeply immoral. History repeats itself.
Congress last fall passed the "Respect for Marriage Act," which explicitly acknowledges in its recitals that good people can indeed have respectable differences of opinion about the issue.
So long as *everyone* respects each other's humanity and legal rights (which that very law affirmed).
It was a rare moment in Washington that gave me hope.
That's what you have to put in the recitals to pass it, and that's fine.
But in the real world, opposition to gay rights is going to code as bigotry very quickly. It already does in many places.
Big difference between “opposition to rights” vs. respectful disagreement with views/lifestyle/etc. without in any way trying to impose anything on anyone. Catholics keeping their traditional teaching on that issue, for example, doesn't have to affect anyone else. (This can apply to anything, really.)
I think bigotry comes in only when people don’t respect others who are different (in either direction).
There’s no reason why folks with different belief systems can’t all peacefully coexist without hating or vilifying each other.
Live and let live! Pluralism or bust!
"There is no probability of ANYTHING here. There’s no evidence that any gay person wants anything to do with Lorrie Smith’s sorry-ass no customer homophobic business."
Jack Phillips would like a word. His business was repeatedly targeted by gays and, consequently, the state of Colorado. You can say the gays and Colorado were justified to target Jack Phillips if you want. But what you don't get to do is pretend it didn't happen.
You don't get standing by osmosis.
"First, 'Colorado has a history of past enforcement against nearly identical conduct.' This factor is very powerful. If someone has done something and been enforced against, that would seem to make it credible that a new person would suffer enforcement for similar conduct."
Suffer?
Why say suffer when (assuming) CO was conducting legal action?
Do we say a speeder is suffering when they have to pay a fine or a suspect has to 'suffer' (legal) arrest?
No we don't and the author shows his bias.
Bias is all that this is about. It's just about who gets to do the discriminating. Those on one side or the other think that their discriminating is just, and there lies the bias (on either side or the other).
I don't see this as a first amendment case at all, but rather as a religious liberty case. What the religious want is the freedom to discriminate, yet they never want to be discriminated against. It is a bit paradoxical and hypocritical, but other groups want the same thing. It's just that recently, and going forward, the religious groups will tend to win the right to discriminate, and the other groups, necessarily, will lose.
The religious part of the First Amendment is a religious detente, that no religion may gain ascendancy and push itself through government.
Another way to view what you just said is to point out how bizarre it is to try to proclaim religion is a quaint lifestyle choice, and government has the honor of stripping it from important spheres of life like, say, keeping food in your mouth.
I don't have a good solution, but without that detente, these other groups would be doing far, far worse. On the other hand, they did, as the religious sentiment being gay was sinful, and therefore could be outlawed, was purely religious.
The power struggle between people is so tiresome.
Setting aside that a religious liberty case would in fact be a first amendment case, I don't know what you mean by "see this as." Smith raised both free exercise and free speech claims. But SCOTUS only agreed to hear free speech claims, and as litigated at SCOTUS, the rationale for SCOTUS's decision was entirely secular. It turned on compelled speech, not on her religious beliefs.
Since we've discussed this in the past, I wanted to bring to your attention that 303 Creative still does not offer wedding websites at all.
Then Lorie Smith may be a liar.
Right, the Supreme Court decided this solely based on speech, not religion.
We’ve been talking about standing. Overbreadth applies to Free Speech claims but not to religion claims. Since standing here was somewhat questionable, the difference might have matterered.
When assuming Colorado is conducting legal action, you’re right.
But the plaintiffs’ complaint most definitely wasn’t assuming Colorado was conducting legal action.
In fact, the complaint specifically said it was unconstitutional, therefore illegal. It assumed the opposite.
"Do we say a speeder is suffering when they have to pay a fine or a suspect has to ‘suffer’ (legal) arrest?"
A common definition of suffer is "experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant)." So... yes?
Has Lorie Smith, since winning in SCOTUS on June 30 of this year, begun designing websites for opposite sex couples? If not, and if she does not do so by June 29, 2024, perhaps the Colorado officials whom she sued could move the District Court for relief from the judgment under Fed.R.Civ.P. 60(b)(3) because of fraud on the court.
Thank you for sharing another one of your leftist fever dreams with us.
Can we get dilan esper on the mic more regularly? EV, give this mensch the keys