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Professor's Claim That She Was Fired for Objecting to Superiors About Mask Mandate Can Go Forward
From Griffin v. University of Maine System, decided Aug. 16 by Chief Judge Jon Levy (D. Me.):
Plaintiff Patricia Griffin's employment as a [tenured] Professor of Marketing at the University of Southern Maine was terminated by the University of Maine System … in September 2021…. Griffin asserts that her termination was unlawful retaliation for her having spoken out against the University's facemask and vaccination policies adopted in response to the COVID-19 pandemic….
On August 18, 2021, in preparation for the University's fall semester, the Chancellor of the University of Maine System announced a mandatory mask policy (the "Policy"). On August 24, Griffin participated in a luncheon meeting via Zoom at which Cummings was a speaker. She alleges that during the event, [University President Glenn Cummings] did not wear a mask. On the same day, Griffin sent an email to the Dean of the College of Management and Human Service pertaining to the University's recently implemented mask and vaccine policies. The email reads in pertinent part:
I first want to say how much I love teaching at [the University of Southern Maine] as well as working with such a great faculty. It really has been the highlight of my career and I owe a lot to you for sticking with me. The reason for this email is because I have been following the science, data, and evidence regarding SARS-CoV-2 and searching for anything that will support wearing a mask while indoors as well as vaccinating an entire school population as the optimal method for stopping the transmission of the virus. The reality is that my research has found no evidence to support these measures. I wanted to share the information I gathered and relied upon when making my decision regarding these mandates before the start of classes next Monday to see that my decisions are science, evidence, and data based. However, I do not want to cause any issues, especially for you, if I come to campus on Monday morning to teach my one face to face class so I wanted to give you enough time.
Griffin attached a separate letter to her email, also addressed to the Dean, summarizing the results of her research on the effectiveness of mask mandates and vaccines. She concluded the letter as follows:
In conclusion, I have followed the science, data, and evidence and cannot find any overwhelming support for the wearing of masks nor the mandating of vaccines, especially since the overall survival rate is 99.7% if infected with Covid. And finally, from a legal perspective, asking for my vaccination status is a violation of HIPAA.
My expectation is the University of Southern Maine will appreciate a faculty member who embraces critical thinking and applies both inductive and deductive reasoning rather than emotions when making decisions. I am teaching three courses this fall, two online and one face to face. I welcome any evidence you can provide to the contrary of what I have found which will convince me that my conclusions about the efficacy of wearing a mask and vaccinating an entire population are wrong.
On August 25, Griffin met with the Dean via Zoom, where she reiterated her request for data supporting the University's Policy and vaccination requirement and asserted her view that Cummings had violated the Policy at the luncheon. {Griffin does not specify whether Cummings attended the lunch in person or whether he spoke via Zoom. Based on the nature of her allegations, I infer that he was present in person. In any event, whether Cummings appeared in person or by Zoom is not material to the issues decided in this Order.} Griffin alleges that she never refused to wear a mask and never stated that she would violate the Policy.
Griffin asserts that immediately following the Zoom meeting, her fall semester courses— one face-to-face class and two asynchronous online classes—were removed from the fall class list. Two days later, University administrators convened a pre-disciplinary conference at which Griffin was present and at which she reiterated her request for data supporting the Policy. The administrators allegedly told her that she would not be allowed to teach courses 100% online unless she resigned and accepted a part-time position….
On September 8, 2021, Griffin received a letter from Cummings suspending her and informing her that the University would be moving to terminate her employment. Griffin alleges that the letter falsely asserted that her email to the Dean had indicated that she refused to comply with the Policy, and that the letter included additional false assertions about her refusal to wear a mask and her intention to violate the Policy. She alleges that the letter caused her severe emotional distress and that it was sent in retaliation for her earlier communications with the Dean. University administrators scheduled a Grievance Hearing, and Griffin learned that Cummings would attend the hearing. Because she had previously filed a Human Resources complaint alleging that Cummings had created a hostile work environment, Griffin asserts that she felt intimidated by Cummings's presence and did not feel comfortable attending the hearing. The hearing went forward in Griffin's absence, resulting in the termination of her employment effective September 22, 2021….
The court allowed Griffin's First Amendment case to go forward, to the extent that it sought reinstatement rather than damages (which were barred by Eleventh Amendment immunity and qualified immunity):
Griffin asserts that she engaged in protected speech when she made her requests to the Dean seeking data supporting the University's COVID-19 policies, and that she was speaking as a citizen on a matter of public concern. Accordingly, she contends that the Defendants violated her First Amendment rights by terminating her employment in retaliation for that speech.
To establish a prima facie case of retaliation under the First Amendment, a plaintiff must show that: "(1) she engaged in protected conduct; (2) she suffered an adverse employment action; and (3) … 'a causal nexus exists between the protected [conduct] and the adverse action.'" The "threshold inquiry" to determine whether a public employee engaged in protected speech is "whether [the employee] spoke as a citizen on a matter of public concern." If the answer is no, the employee has no First Amendment retaliation claim. If the answer is yes, then the possibility of a First Amendment claim arises. "In order to survive a motion to dismiss, a plaintiff need not conclusively establish that her speech was made as a citizen; 'it is sufficient that the complaint alleges facts that plausibly set forth citizen speech.'" …
"Speech involves matters of public concern 'when it can "be fairly considered as relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community," or when it "is a subject of legitimate news interest; that is, a subject of general interest and of value and concern to the public.'""The Defendants argue that Griffin's speech "was not plausibly lodged on a matter of public concern … [but] was lodged as a complaint regarding her employer's policy." However, the Defendants do not meaningfully dispute that the underlying subject matter of Griffin's speech—the COVID-19 pandemic and the response of public institutions to it—has generated significant public debate and controversy in Maine and elsewhere over the last three years. Thus, the decisive question here is the other element of the threshold inquiry: whether Griffin's speech was made in her capacity as a public employee or as a private citizen….
For purposes of the First Amendment, public employees do not speak as citizens when they "make statements pursuant to their official duties." …
The Supreme Court has recognized that not all speech that "simply relates to public employment or concerns information learned in the course of public employment" is deprived of First Amendment protections. This is because certain speech—for example, a public employee's sworn testimony related to misuse of public funds—has "special value precisely because [an] employee[ ] gains[s] knowledge of matters of public concern through their employment." Speech by public employees related to their employment holds "special value" because "[g]overnment employees are often in the best position to know what ails the agencies for which they work," and because they "'are uniquely qualified to comment' on 'matters concerning government policies that are of interest to the public at large.'"
Accordingly, the fact that the speech at issue here related to Griffin's employment is not dispositive of whether she was speaking pursuant to her official duties as a public employee. Instead, as set forth by the First Circuit in Decotiis, several non-dispositive factors must be evaluated:
[(1)] [W]hether the employee was commissioned or paid to make the speech in question; [(2)] the subject matter of the speech; [(3)] whether the speech was made up the chain of command; [(4)] whether the employee spoke at her place of employment; [(5)] whether the speech gave objective observers the impression that the employee represented the employer when she spoke (lending it "official significance"); [(6)] whether the employee's speech derived from special knowledge obtained during the course of her employment; and [(7)] whether there is a so-called citizen analogue to the speech.
The factors suggest that the context in which a public employee speaks bears heavily on whether the employee was speaking pursuant to her or his official job responsibilities.
As applied to the allegations of Griffin's Amended Complaint,4 an evaluation of the first two Decotiis factors—whether the employee was commissioned or paid to make the speech in question, and the subject matter of the speech—produces a mixed result. Because Griffin was employed to teach students, and not to analyze and assess the University's health and safety policies, her speech can fairly be treated as outside the ordinary scope of her duties and instead merely related to her duties. Viewed in this light, although Griffin's email and letter were related to her employment at the University, that is, without more, insufficient to deprive her speech of First Amendment protections …. On the other hand, a practical inquiry into her employment duties, beyond her official job description, suggests otherwise. The subject matter of her email and letter concerned what she might do in the classroom and expressed concerns regarding the University's internal policies and the conditions the University had imposed on her in-person teaching responsibilities, thus bearing directly on matters within the scope of her employment.
The third and fourth Decotiis factors—whether the speech was made up the chain of command, and whether the employee spoke at her place of employment—support the conclusion that Griffin's speech was communicated in her capacity as an employee and not as private citizen. All of the speech at issue was communicated by Griffin directly up the chain of command to the Dean of the College of Management and Human Services. Further, the speech was communicated exclusively within the channels of her employment via her official work email account and at face-to-face meetings with the Dean and other university administrators…. [A] complaint or concern "made up the chain of command … is the quintessential example of speech that owes its existence to a public employee's official responsibilities." {I do not address the fifth factor, as there were no objective observers of Griffin's speech.}
The sixth Decotiis factor—whether the employee's speech is derived from special knowledge that she obtained during the course of her employment—weighs against concluding that Griffin spoke as a private citizen. Griffin does not allege that she was "uniquely qualified," to share information about the effectiveness of mask mandates and vaccine requirements as a result of her employment, nor did she obtain special information regarding the Policy through her position. Accordingly, Griffin's speech does not hold that "special value" of protected speech that pertains to an employee's official responsibilities ….
The seventh Decotiis factor—whether there is a so-called citizen analogue to the speech—ultimately weighs in favor of a finding that Griffin's speech was made outside the scope of her employment. On one hand, unlike a letter to a newspaper or other "kind[s] of activit[ies] engaged in by citizens who do not work for the government," Griffin's email and letter were sent directly to her superior through her University email account and pertained to her disagreement with the Policy and its impact on her face-to-face teaching conditions. Similarly, the communication that occurred during Griffin's meeting with the Dean was plainly a private, employment-related encounter. Moreover, Griffin states in her email that she had made a "decision regarding these mandates," from which one could fairly infer that she was informing her employer that she might not comply with the Policy based on her research.
However, at the motion to dismiss stage I must draw all reasonable inferences in Griffin's favor. In that light, it is also possible to infer that Griffin's "decision" represented the conclusion or conclusions she had drawn regarding the Policy and its efficacy, and not a final decision not to comply with it. The substance of Griffin's email and letter also communicated her concerns about the University's response to the pandemic and the efficacy of mask mandates on college campuses. Viewed in this manner, Griffin's speech could be considered "sufficiently analogous to the speech of other citizens in the community troubled," by facemask and vaccine policies implemented by public institutions during the COVID-19 pandemic, thus warranting a conclusion that there is a plausible citizen analogue to Griffin's speech.
Assessing the allegations of Griffin's Amended Complaint in relation to the Decotiis factors produces an uncertain result. However, accepting all of Griffin's factual allegations as true, the question that I must ultimately decide at this preliminary juncture is whether the Complaint has provided "enough facts to state a claim to relief that is plausible on its face." …
Here, Griffin has pleaded sufficient facts to make it more than merely possible that once fully developed, the facts will support the conclusion that although Griffin's speech related to her official duties as a public employee, the subject matter of her speech pertained to a matter of great public concern and was outside the scope of her duties as a professor of marketing. Whether the same conclusion may be true after the parties have completed discovery is another matter for another day. "[I]t is entirely possible that additional facts might show" that Griffin is not entitled to the relief that she seeks, but "absent factual development, dismissal is unwarranted" at this stage….
Note that Griffin's allegation "that she never refused to wear a mask and never stated that she would violate the Policy" seems quite central here; it wouldn't violate the Free Speech Clause to fire her for not wearing a mask, or for refusing to wear a mask, but her claim is that she was fired simply for arguing that the policy was unsound.
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I think she should've been fired just for this brand of social media idiocy.
But she did her own research!
So did Laura Glass.
Lots of results searching for Laura Glass. Can you be more specific?
https://www.abqjournal.com/news/local/social-distancing-born-in-abq-teens-science-project/article_c8344f40-6c18-5c79-8b6f-3dbecb555053.html
She does not appear to have coined the name, and it was practiced in the 1918 influenza pandemic and earlier. But sure, doing your own research doesn't have to be bad; it just usually is with people who make such complaints about HIPAA violations.
What is overlooked in the proposed science project and covid is that the isolation has to be implemented very early. covid was already too deeply embedded into the general population when the mitigation protocols were implemented in march 2020. It might have worked if implemented in Jan 2020, but was never going to work when implemented in March 2020.
Guys, nobody tell Tom who was President in 2020. Thx!
Go easy on people. I have been dealing with a chronic serious disease for almost four years after 60+ years of very healthy, so I’ve been getting a masters in our health care system and OMG what a clusterfuck this is. The providers are quite good, but the information dispersal, the insurance, the billing are awful.
I’m a degreed engineer that is top 10% in math and most of the sciences, and there are times when I can’t understand the path through this stuff.
And if what people below are saying that complied with the policy but bitched about, that’s not grounds for firing.
And those of y’all who are gonna shout “see, single payer!! don’t go there. I’m in an online support group that covers the globe, so we are all following each other’s paths and so on. If I were in most of the single-payer countries I’d be dead already. No access there to the drugs that have been keeping me stable. And some of the people that died were in Canada and GB. This is not developed vs undeveloped thing.
If she were complying with the policy but complaining about, that shouldn’t be fir-able.
By late July 2021 or early august 2021 it was well established/known that the A) vaccine had very little protection against transmission, B) the effectiveness of reducing severity of the covid illness substantially waned after 5-6 months and C) the vaccine provided little reduction in severity for an otherwise healthy individual and virtually no benefit for a young individual. The vaccine did provide protection against severity for elderly and those individuals who health issues (over weight, diabeties , etc).
By October/Nov 2020 it was known by Fauci's and the pharma's that the way the virus atttached to the cells in the lungs and how the vaccine worked that the vaccine would be very ineffective against transmission - See fauci's emails from the oct nov 2020 time frame.
By Nov 2020 , it was well known that masking was very ineffective in reducing the spread in the general population. A lot of reliance is place on the Bangladesh study and the kansas mask study. The bangladesh study has serious flaws. The kansas study that showed a benefit of masking in the mask mandated counties for a period of approx 8 weeks. However, the per capita infection rate was higher in the mask mandated counties after end of the study period. s
Now THAT'S a gish gallop.
Maine State Law precludes that -- note that the requirement is only "acting in good faith" and "reasonable cause."
" A. The employee, acting in good faith, or a person acting on behalf of the employee, reports orally or in writing to the employer or a public body what the employee has reasonable cause to believe is a violation of a law or rule adopted under the laws of this State, a political subdivision of this State or the United States;
https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/26/title26sec833.html
Could you explain why you think she had reasonable cause to believe that asking her vaccination status was a violation of HIPAA?
I guess he couldn't.
Well, hooray: it just warms my heart to see two lawyers play set-and-spike over today's edition of beating up on the non-lawyer for not being a lawyer. Your folks must be so proud!
Going to the mat for treating Ed's farkakteh theories with appropriate *decorum*.
To be fair to Dr. Ed, for once his random references to Maine (and/or Massachusetts) are not completely irrelevant to the discussion!
She arguably had "reasonable cause" because the average non-lawyer has a generally good understanding that "HIPAA protects my health information (but not, for example, my banking information)" but has no clue how to parse the statute's definition of Covered Entity.
Furthermore, we've trained people (in the context of Protected Class identifiers such as race, religion, etc) that "it's protected" means "my employer is not even allowed to ask about it". The extension of that principle to health information would be legally wrong but it is a commonly-held belief that neither lawyers nor Congress is doing very much to correct.
So to the extent that Maine considers "reasonable cause" to be based on what a "reasonable man" understands and not based on what legal experts in the law can parse out, the belief that asking about her vaccination status was protected might be quite reasonable.
So this professor of marketing did enough scientific research to "know" about the efficacy of masks, but couldn't be bothered to google HIPAA to learn that the only thing it does is prevent doctors from revealing your info without permission, and doesn't say one word about "asking" for information?
If you want to make a point, you could start by not blatantly lying. (In this case, about the scope of HIPAA covered entities.)
Maine courts have interpreted this as, essentially, "intelligible and in good faith." Accuracy is explicitly not a requirement. This is pretty consistent with whistleblower laws elsewhere in the US.
This is how liberty dies. Orwell and Kafka were so right. You can be fired for refusing a government mask mandate with zero scientific basis and with admitted negative health and societal costs. This is leftist political control, nothing else. Gaslighting the nation.
This post brought to you from 1918.
C'mon Sacman, lighten up!
We all know that reading comprehension is not GPH's strongest capability.
"Griffin alleges that she never refused to wear a mask and never stated that she would violate the Policy."
What would they need time for if she were going to abide by the Policy?
OK, the court already covered that.
And let's not lose track of the depth of the religious fervor she was up against here: one of her defenses was that the dean herself violated the Policy by not wearing a mask at "a luncheon meeting via Zoom."
There's no possible pretense of any health or safety concerns that would be mitigated by such performative nonsense -- it's purely about whether you will don the badge of fealty.
I think the dean was at an in-person meeting (in the presence of other people) that Griffin attended by Zoom, not that people on Zoom (not in the presence of other people) all had to wear masks.
That's a possible reading as well. But it certainly wouldn't be the first institution to have such an asinine requirement.
And keep in mind this was back in 2021 in the height of the race to the bottom, which academia won quite handily at the time and is still stubbornly vying for.
A footnote addresses that: "Griffin does not specify whether Cummings attended the lunch in person or whether he spoke via
Zoom. Based on the nature of her allegations, I infer that he was present in person. In any event, whether Cummings appeared in person or by Zoom is not material to the issues decided in this Order." I've updated the post to include that passage.
Based on the number of people I used to see driving a car masked and alone, its not totally out of the question to believe some people might find it necessary to mask up in a zoom meeting.
...or walking the dog on an empty beach.
More often than people leaving the turn indicator on for miles on the highway?
I used to just leave my mask on in the car if I was running errands and hopping in and out. It really wasn't a big deal to wear. It was more of a hassle taking it on and off.
Not only that, but you can be fired for not wearing pants. Is there no end to this tyranny?!?
Proof positive that all analogies break down eventually, but some much sooner than others.
I'll take a cite on how you can be fired for not wearing a diaper.
It's hard to masturbate when you're wearing pants.
Ah yes the 'face diaper' a sure sign you're dealing with not only an idiot but an asshole to boot!
Once again, you're doing that thing you bitch about:
I said "diaper" -- that was my question.
You inserted the word "face" because my question was reasonable and you needed to create an angle to attack. Which you seem weirdly compelled to do, no matter what I say.
'because my question was reasonable'
I mean, for you, maybe, but it's a low bar.
That’s sarcastro’s modus operandi. Changes your argument to give himself something to actually argue with. Responding to what you said is too hard.
With him, it’s not persuading or possibly being persuaded. The thrill is in the argument itself, and the more preposterous he can make what you said sound the longer the now pointless argument will last as y’all quibble about what you actually said, which seems clear to me.
His next trick is to say “well people in the right said face diaper” in an attempt to argue with something that may not even be true, and you’ll end up sounding like you believe something that others said.
Your question was not reasonable. How would anyone know if you were wearing a diaper? Well, unless you also weren't wearing pants. But they would know if you were wearing a mask.
Your reflexive deflection is even less reasonable than your initial analogy. If visible verification were a requirement, that would kill drug-free workplace policies.
"How would anyone know if you were wearing a diaper?"
Probably when you sit down and there is either a crinkle or a squish.
She could be fired for wearing a dress? Good luck with that…
And from what I recall you can only get suspended if the reason you took off your pants was to spank your monkey in front of your colleagues.
I'm guessing that if you spanked an actual monkey on a zoom meeting you'd get fired, but I don't think that's ever been tested.
Jeffrey Toobin says hello!
The last line of the post:
"Note that Griffin's allegation "that she never refused to wear a mask and never stated that she would violate the Policy" seems quite central here; it wouldn't violate the Free Speech Clause to fire her for not wearing a mask, or for refusing to wear a mask, but her claim is that she was fired simply for arguing that the policy was unsound."
If true, she wasn't even fired for refusing to where it, but simply disputing the need / wisdom of the policy.
'Orwell and Kafka were so right.'
Yeah, they never shut up about the evils of people wearing masks during an airborne pandemic.
...in spite of the sheer inefficacy of doing so.
But she was not fired for refusing to wear a mask. Try and keep up.
'sheer inefficacy '
When you people decided to go dumb as a political strategy you did not hold back.
I fully support people not getting fired just for asking dumb questions about policies. She should join a union.
The sheer lack of efficacy is the evidence of inefficacy. Masks, as expected, did diddly to prevent COVID transmission.
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full
Oh dear
'The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions'
Meanwhile
https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid-19-demonstrates-their-effectiveness-real-world
Re-analysis on the statistical sampling biases of a mask promotion trial in Bangladesh: a statistical replication
Maria Chikina, Wesley Pegden & Benjamin Recht Trials volume 23, Article number: 786 (2022)
The famed bangladesh study is heavily cited yet very weak
How confusing for you.
You seem to be the one unable to keep up here.
Nige cites the Discredited Bangladesh study to prove his premise that masks work
Patrick Henry was an asshole, a dope, and as severe and unattractive nepotism case as one could expect to encounter. Who would expect much from his ghost?
Still bat$hit crazy, I see.
We call it the University of Small Minds for a reason.
But two things I don't see mentioned here but should:
A: AFUM -- the Faculty Union. How is this not her academic freedom? Or does that only apply when you advocate the bombing of Israel?
B: The Maine Whistleblower Law:
https://www.maine.gov/mdot/civilrights/docs/sfp/2022/Maine whistleblowerprotection112019.pdf
3. You reported something that risks someone’s health or safety;
4. You have refused to do something that will endanger your life or someone else’s life and you have asked your
employer to correct it;
O course General Mills went all fascist on this...
Since this decision is diametrically opposed to what the 4th Circuit held, if the 1st Circuit agrees with the District Court we’ll be headed for a circuit split.
Although not necessarily. One could perhaps argue that discussing mask-wearing is “public interest” but discussing “diversity, equity and inclusion” in teaching isn’t. But if so, this would to suggest thst what is and isn’t “public interest” can be highly subjective.
See: https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/26/title26sec833.html
As I understand it, Federal courts are bound by state law, so you have the state whistleblower act, which covers state employees.
She's arguing (a) violation of HIPPA, a Federal law or policy, and (b) health & safety. DIE doesn't meet either criteria.
The current opinion is about "violations of her rights under the First Amendment’s guarantee of Free Speech", the only contested part of the partial motion to dismiss. It's not about HIPAA.
Not that it matters to the First Amendment legal issue, but on the substance of her comments, she was absolutely correct and the university was absolutely wrong.
kkoshkin 34 mins ago
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Not that it matters to the First Amendment legal issue, but on the substance of her comments, she was absolutely correct and the university was absolutely wrong."
concur - The masking and vaccination policy was very ineffective with the exception that the vax reduced the severity of the covid infection for the elderly and health impaired individuals. for healthy and young, the vaccination for covid was counter productive.
Why is it that the pro mask mandate crowd is so anti-science?
Abdul Abulbul Amir 2 hours ago
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"Why is it that the pro mask mandate crowd is so anti-science?"
I cant answer that question unless its their inability to admit their error. The pro mask studies are incredibly weak, The highly touted Kansas mask study of mask mandated counties vs non mask mandated counties artificially cut the study period short after 8 or 9 weeks when the per capita infection rates in the mask mandated counties started to exceed the per capita infection rates in the non mask mandated counties.
It's because people who know mask work know words have meanings and just because you've been called anti-science for four years, accurately, does not mean that you calling anyone anti-science is in any way meaningful.
Sweden with no mask mandate and no lockdowns had the lowest excess mortality rate among developed countries. Ignoring that reality is but one example putting butt covering dogma ahead of science. The epidemiologist crew in Sweden deserves the Nobel Prize.
Nige - you guys lost the argument over Covid and its remedies. When are you going to just face it and take the L?
Because leftists only care about power. If "science" gets them closer to totalitarian power, they like "science". If "science" gets in their way, they hate "science".
accusation/admission etc.
Yeah, I hear the actual scientific agencies and the bulk of scientists in the field are not to be listened to, as they are ~liberals~.
You should only listen to people posting on substack. There's there the *science* is!
Why do agencies have more pull with you than actual individual scientists or doctors? The people posting on Substack are accredited scientists. They have WAY more to lose than the ones in the agencies who say nothing against the grain.
Because it became political.
Politics trumps science.
Aesops fable describes the boy who cried wolf with the moral lesson that people arent going to believe you when you get caught lying.
The CDC and the scientist promoting the mitigation protocols got caught misrepresenting the facts far too often. As of january 2023, the CDc still had 7-8 pro masking studies on their website that have been completely discredited including the bangladesh study with its massive flaws. Yet the pro mitigation people cant understand the reason for the distrust of the "scientists"
Science is about facts, changes, risks, etc.
Politics is about value decisions based on the above facts.
They are not the same. To be fair, Fauci has a problem with conflating the two.
But most scientists do not. But like the entire right wing doesn't even understand the difference.
The CDC / Fauci/ et al allowed politics to override science. With the exception of the elderly and those suffering health issues (overweight diabeties , etc) , the science showed the mitigation protocols and the vax policies were going to have very little long term benefit. The net positive benefit of vax was pretty much limited to the elderly and otherwise unhealthy individuals.
Seven million dead diabetes sufferers.
Yeah, the guys who voted for the colossal crooked liar decided that wearing masks and standing far apart during an airborne pandemic was outrageous, because they are also a death cult, apparently. It's a pure fluke they didn't decide that washing hands was a form of Satan worship. Probably saved a million lives alone.
Are you ever capable of anything other than hyperbole?
Where is IJ?!!!! This is a perfect case to weaken Qualified Immunity! I guess they only want to sue people beneath their station in life. Cowards.
Young, healthy people did not need this vaccine.
Michael Ejercito 27 mins ago
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"Young, healthy people did not need this vaccine."
As further evidence confirming your statement, there were approximately zero deaths in the US of the otherwise healthy young children and young adults that died from covid. The only young that died from covid were children who were already suffering from life threatening illnesses.
Almost as if lowering the risk of a low-risk age group catching covid has the benefit of reducing the spread of covid.
To, to pick one example, people like other children who are already suffering from life threatening illnesses or otherwise immunocompromised.
Nige - you continue to be one of the most dis-informed individuals on the planet.
It was known by October of 2020 that the mechanism of the vaccine would not have any effect on the reduction of transmission of covid. Fauci's email revealed that info in October of 2020 - before the rollout of the vax. Further the vax was far too deeply embedded into the general population of any hope of slowing the spread.
I'm about as informed about the sort of stupid disinformation you wallow in as I can stand from reading the dumbest comments from the dumbest commenters here, thanks. You are absolutely full of horseshit.
Fortunately – I have the skill set to ascertain the quality of the study and have the skill set to review the raw source data to reach a reasonable conclusion regarding the information.
Nige – you on the other hand lacks any ability understand the data and are thus both easily fooled and very dis-informed on most every scientific topic along with dis informed on the most basic of knowledge.
Every statement I have made on this post has been factually accurate.
No, Nige, he's not. All you just did was jerk your knee and avoid his actual point.
You have the skill set to open a packet of dried soup without injuring yourself roughly 70% of the time.
Every statement you have made has been stupid beyond belief.
Why on God's green earth am I arguing with people in a 2 year old thread? I really hate that Reason put's ancient articles on the front page.