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Court Rejects Lawsuit by Sorority Members Against Sorority for Admitting Transgender Member
The sorority, the court held, had a First Amendment freedom of expressive association right to choose which students to admit (logic that suggests that a sorority would equally be free to exclude transgender members).
From Westenbroek v. Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity, decided today by Judge Alan Johnson (D. Wyo.) (the defendant is, for historical reasons, labeled a "fraternity," but today it would be described as a sorority):
Embittered by their chapter's admission of Artemis Langford, a transgender woman, six KKG sisters at the University of Wyoming sue their national sorority and its president. Plaintiffs, framing the case as one of first impression, ask the Court to, inter alia, void their sorority sister's admission, find that KKG's President violated her fiduciary obligations by betraying KKG's bylaws, and prevent other transgender women from joining KKG nationwide. A "woman", say Plaintiffs, is not a transgender woman.
Unadorned, this case condenses to this: who decides whether Langford is a Kappa Kappa Gamma sister? Though given the opportunity to vote this past fall, not the six Plaintiffs. Not KKG's Fraternity Council. Not even this federal Court. The University of Wyoming chapter voted to admit—and, more broadly, a sorority of hundreds of thousands approved—Langford. With its inquiry beginning and ending there, the Court will not define "woman" today. The delegate of a private, voluntary organization interpreted "woman", otherwise undefined in the non-profit's bylaws, expansively; this Judge may not invade Kappa Kappa Gamma's freedom of expressive association and inject the circumscribed definition Plaintiffs urge. Holding that Plaintiffs fail to plausibly allege their derivative, breach of contract, tortious interference, and direct claims, the Court dismisses, without prejudice, Plaintiffs' causes of action….
[Plaintiffs'] derivative claim condenses to this: from 1870 to 2018, KKG defined "woman" to exclude transgender women; any new definition may not be enacted, ultra vires, without a KKG bylaw amendment. Expectedly, Defendants counter: private organizations may interpret their own governing documents and define "woman" as including transgender women.
Defendants are correct. Defining "woman" is Kappa Kappa Gamma's bedrock right as a private, voluntary organization—and one this Court may not invade….
First, Ohio law is highly deferential to associational interpretation. "As a general rule, Ohio courts are unwilling to interfere with the management and internal affairs of a voluntary association." More specifically:
[T]hose who become members of non-profit corporations are presumed to have joined them with knowledge of their nature and the law applicable to them, and to have consented to be bound by the principles and rules of government, or the policy which they have adopted, or may adopt … [T]he member has, by voluntarily becoming a member of the order, chosen his forum for the redress of his grievances, and unless there has been some palpable violation of the constitution or laws of the corporation whereby he has been deprived of valuable rights, the civil courts will not interfere.
I turn to guidance from the United States Supreme Court. In Boy Scouts of Am. v. Dale (2000), the Court held that the application of New Jersey's nondiscrimination law, requiring the Boy Scouts to appoint James Dale, an openly gay man as a scoutmaster, ran "afoul of the Scouts' freedom of expressive association." The Court found that a state compelling the Scouts to include Dale would "interfere with the Boy Scouts' choice not to propound a point of view contrary to its beliefs." "[T]he First Amendment simply does not require that every member of a group agree on every issue in order for the group's policy to be 'expressive association.' The Boy Scouts takes an official position … and that is sufficient for First Amendment purposes." Chief Justice Rehnquist concluded:
'While the law is free to promote all sorts of conduct in place of harmful behavior, it is not free to interfere with speech for no better reason than promoting an approved message or discouraging a disfavored one, however enlightened either purpose may strike the government.'
Dale's takeaway for the Court: the government may not defy the internal decision-making of a private organization, including the criteria governing that entity's membership.
{Advanced by Defendants, Bostock v. Clayton County (2020), by contrast, is inapposite today. There, the Court held that "it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being … transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex" because "to discriminate on th[is] ground[] requires an employer to intentionally treat individual employees differently because of their sex." Justice Gorsuch concluded that Title VII "prohibit[s] [employers] from firing employees on the basis of … transgender status." Both sides misapply Bostock. Defendants say that if the Supreme Court interpreted "discrimination because of sex" as protecting transgender individuals, so too may Kappa interpret its bylaws "to be similarly inclusive." Plaintiffs respond that the law's ordinary meaning at enactment (i.e., KKG's definition of "woman" in 1870) "usually governs." Neither argument assists the Court today. Had the UW chapter or KKG denied Langford admission because she was transgender, Bostock, though addressing employer discrimination, would certainly amplify. On the other hand, Bostock concerned the Court's statutory interpretation of Title VII and not a private organization's internal bylaws.}
Voluntary organizations beget benefits and drawbacks. KKG provides community on campus and a professional network for life. Forty-four women in Laramie seemingly prioritized those benefits when they rushed. Membership, on the other hand, relinquishes a dose of personal autonomy. That organization may say or publish something anathema to one or a faction of members. Take the 2018 Guide, speech that Plaintiffs undoubtedly disagree with. Just as the Boy Scouts were "an expressive association" entitled to First Amendment protection, so too is Kappa Kappa Gamma. See Dale ("It seems indisputable that an association that seeks to transmit such a system of values engages in expressive activity."). The law, or this Court, may not interfere with—whether promoting or discouraging—that speech. Dale controls today, interestingly with the shoe on the other foot. Whether excluding gay scoutmasters in Dale or including transgender women in Kappa, this Judge may not invade Kappa's sacrosanct, associational right to engage in protected speech. KKG's "official position" of admitting transgender women, even if decreed by a mere "delegate", is speech which this Court may not impinge.
Plaintiffs respond that Kappa's freedom of expressive association does not insulate the organization from amendment of its own bylaws. I disagree, especially where Plaintiffs cannot point the Court to the bylaw that defines "woman" the way they wish.
Of course, an organization binds itself via its bylaws. Those bylaws state that a new Kappa "shall be a woman". The parties diverge from there. Whereas Plaintiffs circumscribe "woman", their delegate augmented the same. In the Court's view, that is a lawful interpretation—explicitly authorized per the sorority's Standing Rules—of an otherwise-silent bylaw. See ECF No. 6-1, at 119 ("The administrative duties of Fraternity Council shall include … [i]nterpreting the Fraternity Bylaws and Standing Rules[.]"). Plaintiffs' plea that the Court interpret "woman" as it was in 1870 clashes with this and other Courts' deference to organizational autonomy, or the notion that organizations deserve considerable latitude to interpret their own bylaws. For instance, the Powell court in Ohio spotlighted an exception to courts' general unwillingness to interfere with a voluntary association when "there has been some palpable violation of the constitution or laws of the corporation whereby [the member] has been deprived of valuable rights." Plaintiffs make no such showing. Instead, they ask this Court to overrule one interpretation and inject another. The Court refuses to do so….
In summary, the delegate of a private, voluntary organization, in pursuit of "inclusiv[ity]", broadened its interpretation of "woman". The Court will not interfere with its result, nor invade the organization's freedom of expressive association.
The court also concluded that KKG didn't breach any contract with plaintiffs: "Giving effect to the membership contract before the Court, KKG undertook no contractual obligation to reject transgender women."
KKG is represented by Brian W. Dressel and Natalie Marie McLaughlin (Vorys Sater Seymour and Pease LLP) and by Scott P. Klosterman.
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Yet again, more from the transgender sorority drama beat than with respect to the aggregate developments involving John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, Donald Trump, and more than a dozen other un-American right-wingers whose circumstances have precipitated important and prominent legal issues regarding freedom of expression, federalism, and other areas of ostensible interest to this white, male, conservative blog.
Today is another Transgender Sorority Drama Day at the Volokh Conspiracy. Tomorrow might be Muslim Day. Or Drag Queen Day. Or White Grievance Day. Or Transgender Rest Rooms Day. Or Lesbian Day. Or Safe Spaces For Bigots Day. Or Black Crime Day. Or Transgender Parenting Day.
Anything but John Eastman Day, or Donald Trump Day, or Jeffrey Clark Day.
#Cowardice #PartisanHackery
Trump is the antithesis of important, but prominent I’ll grant.
Word is Sen Memdezes (D-NJ) is going to be indicted.
Again? What is he alleged to have done now?
As best I can tell, bribery involving the Egyptians. Its SDNY.
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/prosecutors-weigh-charges-against-sen-bob-menendez-5c56755d
Is Dr. Ed having another stroke? It's "Menendez," of course — a common Hispanic surname — not "Memdezes."
NPC Alert.
KKG (and the court) uses the Humpty Dumpty definition of woman.
Based on my admittedly cursory understanding of this case, it's hard to see why the First Amendment is involved at all.
You have a private actor vs. a private actor and what seems to me to be a breach of contract / organizational governance dispute. Dale involved an assertion of governmental power.
A court rendering judgment is governmental action, which is subject to First Amendment limitations. For example, New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964), involved a dispute between private litigants.
That's true, but one can give up one's rights by contract. And contract interpretation is something courts do every day.
The Court here recognized that, when it stated the following:
Of course, an organization binds itself via its bylaws. Those bylaws state that a new Kappa "shall be a woman". The parties diverge from there. Whereas Plaintiffs circumscribe "woman", their delegate augmented the same. In the Court's view, that is a lawful interpretation—explicitly authorized per the sorority's Standing Rules—of an otherwise-silent bylaw. See ECF No. 6-1, at 119 ("The administrative duties of Fraternity Council shall include … [i]nterpreting the Fraternity Bylaws and Standing Rules[.]"). Plaintiffs' plea that the Court interpret "woman" as it was in 1870 clashes with this and other Courts' deference to organizational autonomy, or the notion that organizations deserve considerable latitude to interpret their own bylaws.
So the real question here is not whether the sorority has a First Amendment right to include or exclude trans-women. The question is, was it true to its by-laws. That's the nub.
IMO, the court here stretched the concept of "interpretation" far beyond what it means. From 1870 until at least 2010, a "woman" was not understood by anyone to mean anything other than a woman. Not a trans-woman.
The reality of what has happened here is that the by-laws were amended under the guise of "interpretation." (Sounds like a lot of liberal SCOTUS decisions.) That a court went along with it is another sad reflection of our times.
The RNC decided to make this a culture war issue in the early 2010's since they needed a new target to hate. Trans women were happily going around as "women" for at least 20 years prior to that, maybe many more for all I know. Y'all just didn't care 'cause you were busy hating gays at the time.
1972:
Holly came from Miami, F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
So, at least 50 years ago, again could be 100 years, I don't know. There probably were trans women in 1870!
The Nazis shut down a whole institute devoted to studying it in the 1930s.
No, the DNC decided to make this a culture war issue when they passed a law in NC mandating that men be allowed into women’s locker rooms. Before that, trans people were happily going around as whatever for at least 20 years and there was no problem, but the left just couldn’t leave well enough alone.
That Charlotte law didn't happen until after the RNC started making noise about bathrooms, so Charlotte tried to play defense and protect the status quo. It didn't work though: NC shut it down with a right-wing Bathroom Bill before it ever went into effect.
Your comment seems right to me.
A "first amendment right" to breach contract and violate corporate governing documents? Interesting.
I knew patriarchy would eventually rise again! Patience was all that was required! The men are back in control, baby!
It appears that Ohio law principles of standing require litigants to show, at a minimum, that they have suffered (1) an injury that is (2) fairly traceable to the defendant's allegedly unlawful conduct, and (3) likely to be redressed by the requested relief. Progressohio.Org, Inc. v. Jobsohio, 139 Ohio St.3d 520, 13 N.E.3d 1101, 1104 (Ohio 2014). I am not clear from reading the linked opinion what injury the pecker checker plaintiffs are claiming to have resulted from the defendants' conduct.
The injury is that they paid dues to an organization in the belief that they would be living with women only, not men. They also suffered loss of privacy from men. At the very least, that's false advertising and a breach of contract. The sorority has the right to admit who they want. But at a minimum, the plaintiffs should get their dues back.
If only you applied such a minimal level of scrutiny to your latest pet theory about how a Secretary of State could claim injury sufficient to support a DJ action simply from having to follow their state's statutorily-defined administrative procedures to put Trump's name on the state's election ballot.
Let’s suppose the sorority had contracted with Voyeur Video to install a hidden camera in the showers, to be viewed only by a single private paying client.
Still no standing? The plaintiffs would, just as in this case, experience only the emotional feeling of ick that comes from someone they regard as male viewing them in a setting they regard as private
I agree with the merits decision, although Ohio law suffices to reach the fesult without going into federal constitutional issues. But there is obvious standing here. It doesn’t matter to standing if the plaintiffs are correct here. That’s a merits question.
After all, they wouldn’t object to a woman they agreed to live with viewing them in the shower. The only difference is it’s someone they regard as male that they didn’t agree to live with and don’t want viewing them. So it’s just a question of pecker checking here as well, right? So no standing.
"Admitting Transgender Member"
I know I'm usually the one molesting the Engrish Language here, but shouldn't it be...
"Transgender's Member" ???
and if I get it right the "Transgender Member" will be "Entering" the Sorority?
"Breaking through" (Penetrating??) that
"Glass Ceiling"?
and I see this judge was nominated by Ronaldus Maximus in 1985 and is 3 years older than Parkinsonian Joe, maybe that "Lifetime" appointment thang does need to be looked at..
Frank "all new Members, Rise!!!"
"[Plaintiffs'] derivative claim condenses to this: from 1870 to 2018, KKG defined "woman" to exclude transgender women; any new definition may not be enacted, ultra vires, without a KKG bylaw amendment."
This seems pretty reasonable. How can a contract even be considered to BE a contract, if the words making it up are subject to being unilaterally redefined by just one of the parties? And not just at the margins in this case, but to encompass its polar opposite.
Did you ever read 1984, or its description of Newspeak?
Will someone be publishing a Newspeak dictionary any time soon?
This is not top down mandated speech.
The right these days cries that popular cultural shifts away from their shittiness as tyranny. Not a recipe for keeping with the times and voters.
You didn't, and you don't know what Newspeak actually was, and you don't care, either.
The Double(dumbfuck) Twins have arrived.
The 'thanks for showing us who you really are' gang having a good one today I see.
What contract is there here?
You continue to suck as a libertarian: “Defining "woman" is Kappa Kappa Gamma's bedrock right as a private, voluntary organization—and one this Court may not invade”
I'm struggling to see why a club or society which has membership fees payable for being a member of a club or society with a constitution set out here and saying that, and stating that members are entitled to this or that, does not involve a contractual relationship between the club and its members, or between its members.
How does this differ from say a law firm ? ie if the partnership agreement says that all equity partners, who are partners for the whole year, are entitled to an equal share of the profits, does the senior partner get to define "equal" against all comers ? The courts can't adjudicate a claim by Partner Minion that he got only a half what everybody else got ?
It may be so, for the law is a very strange animal. But I should like the ravening pack of lawyers who roam these threads to confirm that it is so.
A contract stating what? The terms were not laid out; there was no meeting of the minds.
Is there a sororityship agreement specifying what a woman is? Your partnership agreement analogy fails so hard it shows why there isn't a contract. (I like your analogy below about turkey BTW).
I don't know, I haven't read the organisation's by-laws. But these legal doofuses seem to think memberships of clubs involve contractual relationships :
https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/consumer-protection/consumer-protection-law/responsibilities-when-belonging-to-a-club.html
If your country club offers an indoor swimming pool at the time you sign up, it usually can't remove the pool and install an indoor driving range in that area instead. If it does, you can probably cancel your contract.
Not a great analogy, man.
Analogy ?
I'm saying that they seem to think that club membership typically involves contractual rights. And that's what they say in the piece you quote :
If it does, you can probably cancel your contract.
Clue in the last word. Your view seems to be that there isn't a contract. OK, tell me what these lawyers have got wrong. Or what it is that distinguishes a fraternity from a country club to the extent that the latter involves contractual rights, but the former does not.
You provided guidance about a pretty different situation from the sorority.
Did I give you too much credit that you were reasoning by analogy?
I think the area we are having trouble communicating is this: I'm saying that the bylaws do not a binding contract, certainly not about the definition of a woman, not that the sorority has zero obligations to it's members.
What you actually said was "there isn't a contract."
And here it is :
"Your partnership agreement analogy fails so hard it shows why there isn’t a contract. "
I’m saying that the bylaws do not a binding contract
This obviously got a bit jumbled, but "there isn't a contract" means that the member does not have a contract with the society, at all. Not that there is a contract but the by laws are not legally binding contractual terms.
Which btw is not what the judge said :
"unless there has been some palpable violation of the constitution or laws of the corporation whereby he has been deprived of valuable rights, the civil courts will not interfere."
Which implies that if there has been some palpable violation of the constitution or laws of the corporation etc, the civil courts may interfere.
So just to be clear, do you continue to maintain that the paying members of a fraternity do not have a contract with the fraternity ?
It absolutely is a contract. But the contract, incorporating relevant state law as all contracts do, says that the organization’s leadership gets to interpret ambiguous terms.
I find it highly implausible that in 1870 the bylaws mentioned anything at all about transgender women.
Is your contention that the 1870s founders contemplated and approved of accepting transgender members, or are you just being a disingenuous putz?
My contention is that the claim that "From 1870 to 2018, KKG defined woman to exclude transgender women" is empirically false. What they "contemplated" has nothing to do with the claim about what they "defined."
In 1870 to 2018 they defined "woman" to exclude "transgender woman", because they defined "woman" to exclude "man", and transgender 'women' are men.
I would assume they implicitly used the definition everyone else used, as opposed to a definition where anyone can simply declare themselves as such. They didn't define it explicitly because it didn't need such treatment.
Just because the right-wing grievance machine recently informed you that trans women exist (in order to fund-raise off you I guess) doesn't mean they just started existing.
Nieporent is quoting Bellmore who is quoting the judge, who is not quoting the plaintiff, but "condensing" the plaintiff's argument.
In other words the plaintiff claimed no more than that "woman" in the 1870 document could not possibly encompass a meaning that would include what are now described as "transgender women" since the idea that "women" could include some men, as opposed to excluding all men by definition, had not yet occurred to anybody.
So if a gun wasn’t invented in 1789, some feel it can be banned, that this matters.
Now it doesn’t in another domain? Something uncontemplated reaches back in time and inserts itself as if there all along, in one case, but not the other?
For the record I am fine with what the sorority did, and yes I know that gun rule is not the law of the land. I just like poking holes.
The issue is not "what" the sorority did, it is how it did it.
Transgender women are men/males.
If the bylaws exclude men/ males in 1870 Then they exclude transgender women in 1870 and the exclude transgender women in 2023 unless they changed the bylaws
Just to be clear for those individuals that don’t understand biology - a transgender women is a male and it’s biologically impossible for a transgender women to ever become a female
Turns out there is sociology as well as biology to this whole woman man thing. Sorry if that is above your ability to deal with.
Actually, no, turns out there isn't. Sex is biology, all the way down. Unlike sexual orientation.
But we understand that your ideology is a jealous master, and this is one of the ways you confirm your fealty to it.
Then you will always be having the wrong argument. As usual.
we understand that your ideology is a jealous master, and this is one of the ways you confirm your fealty to it.
Oh fuck off with that ‘I’m the reasonable one you’re the ideological one’ ipse dixit shit talk.
There are plenty of liberals who don’t come down on this side of gender stuff. It’s a novel area. And I do think there are plenty of edge cases to discuss (sports, women exclusive spaces, irreversible treatments for minors).
Meanwhile you and Dallas have zero nuance, zero exceptions, just anger, semantics, and high-handed assholery.
Sacastro get pissed off because Brett points out the evil ideology of woke who wish to harm those suffering with a mental illness.
Brett’ I would prefer treatment that cures the mental illness instead of causing permanent harmful
evil ideology of woke
Do you realize how this makes you sound like a clown?
Oh hay guess what you and Brett (and me) are not experts in? Deciding what's a mental illness! Which is why none of us should be saying what's mental illness.
That's not a policy question. And calling a subgroup mentally ill, especially for political reasons, has a pretty authoritarian history; maybe you shouldn't pretend an expertise you don't have.
Transgender women are women – it really doesn’t matter how you define women or what you think of transgender people, all you have to do is append ‘and transgender women’ to the definition.
Yeah, transgender 'women' are women, just like O'Brien was holding up five fingers in 1984. It's the lie you folks have chosen to demand of people as proof of loyalty.
It was never important exactly what the lie would be, just that you prove you could force people to accept it, as a way of demonstrating who was in charge. As a way of breaking the public's will to put up a fight against your orders.
Transgender people are real, the fifth finger isn't. So you're doing a reverse Orwell. Attempting to wipe something you don't like from existence. The something happens to be people, of course, but once you've forced them to pretend to be what you would prefer them to be, then you and O'Brien can high-five, or high-four, whichever.
The fifth finger is real. It's on the guy's hand. It's just not being held up.
Transgendered people are real people. They exist. They just aren't what they are claimed to be.
They're 'claiming' to be transgender.
Nige 6 hours ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
"Transgender women are women "
Nige - quit being stupid
Transgender women are men / males. Absolutely nothing can change a scientific fact. Its basic biology.
The Nazis agreed with you.
Actually scientists / biologists agree with me.
Woke activists agree with you
Josef Mendeleev would also agree with you
Gatekeeping science as what agrees with you, and calling everyone else ideologically impure and irrational? That's the actually Nazi thing to do.
Who in this thread is doing that, I wonder?
Calling people nazis for adhering to actual biological science is a pretty weak argument and shows how weak your social science is
Try to discuss Try substance if you are capable
Comparing people to the Nazis for persecuting a minority the Nazis also persecuted? How unfair.
I note the passionate adherence to (some supposed version of) biological science always falls short of accepting medical science on the issue in terms of diagnosis and treatment.
Nige - no one on the right is persecuting those suffering a mental illness.
Brett Myself and others are only pointing out the evil perpetuated on those suffering a mental illness with induldging their delusions with the woke anti science based fad treatment the prevents a long term cure and instead perpetuates the long term damage.
Your calling others who oppose your vision of woke science nazis is what it takes for you to justify the evil you wish to inflict.
Denying someone their medical treatment is persecution.
Tom - no-one is persecuting trans people.
Also Tom: allowing trans people access to medical care is evil.
I'm not calling anyone a Nazi. I'm just pointing out that you're not the first to find trans people a handy target.
Scientists / biologists do not agree with you.
Randal 8 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Scientists / biologists do not agree with you."
Randal - you, Sarcastro and Nige are displaying the highest level of stupidity.
There are absolutely zero scientists , absolutely zero biologists that believe a transgender women is a women. A transgender women is male and will always be a male. There is absolutely nothing that can change that.
Your version of science is from Trofim Lysenko school of anti science.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
The general rule, which Ohio follows. is that a private membership organization gets to interpret its own bylaws, including those relating to the qualification of its memmbers, and courts will not decide between competing reasonable interpretations. And given the social debate over transgender issues I think a court is bound to regard both interpretations as legally reasonable. The fact that you personally interpret one interpretation and are strongly opposed to the other doesn’t make the other interpretation legally unreasonable. Exactly the same applies to Not guilty, who takes the position opposite yours and thinks the plaintiffs position is so obviously wrong that the plaintiffs don’t have standing. Because the plaintiff’s interpretation is also legally reasonable, there is indeed standing here.
Private non-commercial associations generally get to do what they want, and they have discretion in interpreting their own by-laws. It’s a free country. Freedom means the law doesn’t generally interfere with these matters. And that’s true regardlesss of which side one may personally side with. Judges have to be careful to judge fairly and apply the law fairly even in, perhaps especially in, situations where they may personally feel strony.
If these plaintiffs don’t like it, they can attempt to join another, more conservative sorority, or found their own. It’s a free country. If a more conservative sorority takes the opposite view, courts should uphold its interpretation of its by-laws as well. The sisters here need to find people they are comfortable living with. They, too, are free to do so.
It seems to me that is best to think about this in a context other than the current fuss about “women” and focus on what legal principles are involved.
So let us conjure up the Thanksgiving Turkey Dinner Society, formed in 1870 for the purpose of serving a slap up Turkey Dinner, each Thanksgiving, to paid up Members of the society. In 2022, the governing council – tired of turkey – decide to make it a German Wurst and Kartoffel Dinner. (Let us stipulate that starting about 20 years ago, a small group of people who think turkey is unutterably boring and tasteless have taken to calling German Wurst “turkey” in a bid to spice up their thanksgivings, while still affecting to celebrate traditional Thanksgivings. )
Members of the Society who are committed to old fashioned actual turkey turkey, sue.
1. Is a Society of this type regarded differently from other forms of voluntary association, such that its governing body is given deference by the courts in a way that would not be done for other forms – eg in actions between members and corporations, do the courts usually defer to corporate Boards interpretation of their Articles of incorporation ? What about things like the NBA or law firms in dispute with their partners ? Are voluntary societies “special” – and why ?
2. Assuming the court decides it has some power to second guess the Turkey society’s governing council, does “originalism” apply to the interpretation of the governing documents of a voluntary society or other body ? Or would the recent minority usage of “turkey” be relevant in the interpretation of 1870 text ? (Assuming there has been no relevant statutory rule imposed in the interim on interpreting contracts etc.)
3. If there is a provision in the society’s by laws providing a mechanism for changing the governing documents, would it count against the governing council if it had not followed this process ?
In short, outside the current sturm and drang about “women”, would we expect the same result and judicial reasoning in the “turkey” case ?
Thank god it was unanimous.
https://youtu.be/LFrdqQZ8FFc?si=TgLdR5RjEzE0xzpV
It's not a small group of people who consider transwomen to be women, and there's a huge difference between turkey and wurst. Add in that the analogy suggests that turkey dinners are completely eliminated; the analogous situation might be that some members are eating a different main dish (perhaps because of poultry allergy) which annoys members who are eating turkey who sue over meals served which they are not eating but are in the same room. (Is the analogy a turkey, or is it the wurst?)
How about plant-based turkeys instead? If the national organization accepts that chapters can serve plant-based turkeys as well, and some members of one chapter sue to keep their chapter's main dish exclusively animal based?
Americans consume 46 million (animal-based) turkeys each Thanksgiving; Forbes estimates 4.5 million plant-based turkeys, a significant fraction.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkart/2021/11/12/an-estimated-45-million-plant-based-turkeys-will-be-gobbled-up-this-thanksgiving/?sh=3ee58f227323
I recall litigation over whether things like "veggie burgers" can be used on labels, although I'm not sure it was discussed at the Volokh Conspiracy. For example:
https://www.courthousenews.com/federal-judge-blocks-louisiana-law-regulating-meat-substitute-labels/
Actually, it is a small, if very strategically placed group, (Though you've got a larger group intimidated into playing along.) and there's a huge difference between men and women.
Polling shows that you are wrong, unless you subscribe to a really nutty conspiracy theory about pollsters or have a weird definition of small when it comes to groups. (Either of which would be completely on brand for Brett.)
Despite public pressure, polling shows that around 30-40% of people would agree in any sense with the statement "Trans women are woman", would allow someone to change their legal sex, or would agree that "gender can be changed". This is pretty consistent between polls: Pew, NYT, Gallup, YouGov, NPR from 2017 to 2022. That position doesn't break 50% in any subcategory except single women under the age of 40.
In the practical questions, about 70% of people say transwomen should not be allowed to compete in women's sports, and about 60% say they should be be allowed into women's bathrooms.
You tend to get a 15-25% "Don't know" answer for these questions.
Only about 40% responding to the gentle position, and 25% (at best) of the practical questions show support for the trans position, heavily biased by young women. I'm not sure that's a "small" group, but it is majorly outnumbered by the opposition position, so it certainly isn't a "large" group.
And those polls would be coming from the USA, which comprises about 20% of worldwide English speakers. I'm doubtful that "transgender woman" usage would fare particularly well amongst the other 80%.
Single women under 40 in the US are heavily represented in sororities at American universities. But ignoring that, 40% is not a small group, unless the vehemently opposed group (after taking out the undecided/don't know) is also a small group.
For reference, can I get a list of all the issues in the US that worldwide English speakers are allowed to vote on? Thanks in advance!
It would be my position that a lot of people have been intimidated into playing along, and would revert back to the majority "trans 'women' are men" position if they didn't feel threatened.
Refusing to play along has consequences, we see that daily.
Your support for that position is, as usual, ipse dixit.
I'm willing to allow opinion polls are not the most accurate thing, but they are better evidence than your ass.
Just doing your Gaslightro thing again.
You can, as Brett says, find a new example of someone being punished for trans wrongthink pretty much every day.
eg
https://news.yahoo.com/alice-cooper-claims-being-trans-154942652.html
Lol.
Afraid to tell pollsters anonymously what they really think? OK, nutty conspiracy theory about pollsters it is.
That 40% is nearly all comprised of individuals who vote for democrats which is the party that has adopted woke science. The lysenki version of science.
Ah yes, the science that is politically inconvenient for you.
For reference, can I get a list of all the issues in the US that worldwide English speakers are allowed to vote on? Thanks in advance!
Why ? Were you proposing to legislate word usage, rather than merely observing it ?
You seem to think what other English-speaking countries believe can determine what words mean here in the US; what else are they allowed to dictate to the US? You should be aware that the rest of the world thinks our freedom of speech and right to bear arms are excessive, so why should we care what they think about who our sororities admit or don't admit?
https://www.cnn.com/style/vermont-law-school-slavery-mural-lawsuit/index.html
Ahh yes, concealing is not "modifying." Only left wing judges can come up with this nonsense. The three "judges" in the majority are Livingston, appointed by the RINO Jorge Bush, Cabranes, a despicable Puerto Rican who specializes in bad faith appointed by Klinton, and Rachel Kovner, a left wing Jew, albeit appointed by Trump.
Of course, I disagree with the 1990 law, and thinks it violates private property rights and constitutes a 5th Amendment taking.
Judge Kovner is
a Wilkinson III clerk;
a Scalia clerk;
a Trump appointee;
a Federalist Societeer; and
daughter of a billionaire right-wing megadonor from the American Enterprise Institute board.
She does not appear to be "left wing."
That leaves the "Jew" part. But don't worry -- the record demonstrates that Prof. Bernstein will provide a pass to you on that one because . . . well, just because.
Other than that, though . . . great comment!
Nearly every Jew ultimately becomes left wing when push comes to shove. Remember, I grew up in that community. Fortunately off the derech now.
Was that before or after I was Super Bowl MVP?
I'm really surprised that someone with a crush on a KKG sister hasn't pushed him off one. Remember why Hinkley shot Reagan?
I also don't understand why they don't have a false advertising claim here.
Remember Mathew Shepard?
Same university....
Because feminazis and trannies are mutually exclusive -- and I am enjoying watching them fight....
50 years of attacks on boys is WHY there are trannies, and now the people who attacked everything male are having everything female attacked. More Popcorn!!!
Donald Trump's supporters yap and yammer about the First Amendment constantly, never mind that speech or writing used as an integral part of conduct in violation of a valid criminal statute is not protected thereby.
Several defendants, including former Pres. Trump, have advanced ostensible First Amendment defenses. There also are First Amendment issues associated with the pretrial release terms.
John Eastman was considered newsworthy by this blog when he was running for public office and Conspirators were enthusiastically vouching for him. Why are his circumstances -- front page news elsewhere -- no longer noteworthy in the eyes of this blog?
Actually, I never really liked sororities and I'm enjoying this...
"I also don’t understand why they don’t have a false advertising claim here."
I'll bite. Who falsely advertised, and what content?
Maybe the sorority advertised itself as a sorority, you know, a group of college women? And it turned out not to be a group of college women. Bait and switch if not false advertising.
Of course, I also don't understand why they all don't resign and leave the man alone in the sorority house, wandering around saying "I have to go to the bathroom, who else wants to go?"
The district court opinion indicates that the group called itself a fraternity, not a sorority.
Skaneateles LLC was a Biden Bribery Business, but it's named after a town in New York and Chewbacca lived on Endor. If it doesn't make sense, you must acquit!
"The district court opinion indicates that the group called itself a fraternity, not a sorority."
At least they're honest.
I have to agree with you. Notice how the Boy Scouts became just Scouting and they allow girls to join, while the Girl Scouts stays exclusively female.
I've posted in several other places that as soon as the Liberal Socialists can gain no political advantage from you, be prepared to be thrown under the bus,
I don't see any First Amendment issue with the pretrial release terms in Georgia, given that Trump, through his lawyers, agreed to a consent bond. First Amendment rights, like other constitutional rights, can be waived.
The forest moon of Endor. And yes, it was originally to be the Wookee homeworld, but you know, toys, so they shrunk the wookies and renamed them wookie in sort of a pig latin, ewok.
I have (now.) And the answer seems to be yes they are special. But why they are special seems to be just past judicial spouting, aka precedent, not any actual analytical distinction.
Everything that is mentioned as a reason for deferring to the voluntary society could be said just as well for any organisation including for profit corporations. And the headline reasoning gaily skips past the question of whether the concept of ultra vires applies to the governing board - which is not a question which would be skipped past if it were a for profit corporation.
In the end, the court at last explains that even a voluntary society is bound by its by laws, and the courts will act if it acts "palpably" outside the terms of its constitution. But in this case, in the court's view, it didn't. So in the end it's not that voluntary societies are any different from any other kinds of associations, merely that judges have decided that they are going to cut the governing body a lot of slack.
The organisation is not the same thing as its governing body. So, yes, the organisation should set its own rules, including its own rules for changing its rules. If all that is delegated by the rules to the governing body then yes the governing body can change its rules as it wishes. But if the rules specify a procedure for changing the organisation's rules and new "rules" are promulgated but the procedure is ignored, then the new rules are "ultra vires."
If the constitution of the Christian Farmers club says it its membership is to be restricted to Christian farmers, and if no rule change has been constitutionally adopted to change that, it is not open to the governing body to admit Muslim bricklayers, even if they pass a resolution saying "we interpret "Christian" as including Muslims, and "farmers" as including bricklayers."
That's ultra vires and the courts could and should intervene. As this court - eventually - got round to confirming.
As I said above, at some point, "interpret" is stretched too far, and really means, "amend."
Suppose the management of a Christian Farmers' Club, which has collected dues from its members, and whose by-laws state it is for Christian farmers, suddenly decides that worshipping the Emperor of Japan as a god is a form of Christianity, and therefore it will admit members who do same. Is that "interpretation" of the by-laws?
For that matter, suppose it decides that automobile manufacturing is a form of farming, and admits auto-workers?
I don't find it all that interesting. If you want gratuitous disparaging references to people's race or religion then just look at half of Arthur's posts, and it's not like EV scolds him on most of those.
I call a bigot a bigot.*
This seems to bother people like Davy C and Eugene "Mr. Racial Slur (With Plausible Deniability)" Volokh intensely.
* And there are almost innumerable chances to do that every day at the white, male, hard-right Volokh Conspiracy.
Sure, but interpreting "women" to include "trans women" is obviously not that far.
That'd be like if I sued to keep you out of my fraternity on the theory that "men" was never intended to include "retarded men."