Today in Supreme Court History: August 19, 1937

8/19/1937: Justice Hugo Black takes the oath.

Justice Hugo Black

 

Comments

[Dan Schiavetta]

Corpus Christi School District v. Cisneros, 404 U.S. 1211 (decided August 19, 1971): Black reinstates stay dissolved by Fifth Circuit of desegregation order granted by different trial court judge than the one who issued the order saying he would grant no stays; “it is apparent that this case is in an undesirable state of confusion and presents questions not heretofore passed on by the full Court, but which should be” (the Fifth Circuit later modified the order and cert was denied, 413 U.S. 922, 1973) (Black himself was in an undesirable state of confusion; at age 85 his mind had been failing and he resigned a few weeks later; I recommend this comprehensive historical review available online, Garrow, Mental Decrepitude on the United States Supreme Court, 67 U. Chi. Law Rev. 995 (2000); see the discussion of Black at pp. 1050 - 51)

Rose v. Raffensberger, 143 S.Ct. 58 (decided August 19, 2022): Black voters won in suit claiming at-large voting for Georgia Public Service Commission violated Voting Rights Act and obtained permanent injunction against at-large voting. The Eleventh Circuit granted stay pending appeal. Here Thomas vacates the stay because the Circuit Court applied the wrong analysis (changing voting method would not be possible before November 2022 elections) instead of traditional analysis (likelihood of success on the merits). Thomas refers back to the Eleventh Circuit for reconsideration. (Georgia did not seek stay again, but postponed elections to 2023 until appellate course has run; Circuit Court heard argument on full appeal in December 2022, but stayed decision pending the Court’s decision in a Congressional apportionment case, Allen v. Milligan, 143 S.Ct. 1487, which was decided on June 8, 2023 under an analysis that favors the black voters here; no decision on appeal yet.)

[SRG2]

That Decrepitude paper: https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5893&context=uclrev

I liked the cool objectivity of this remark:In the spring of 1937, a constitutional amendment mandating retirement at age seventy-five would have been approved by the Congress with virtual acclamation had only President Franklin D. Roosevelt not been so pigheaded as to utterly reject any such substitute for his own badly designed and abysmally presented plan.

[Dan Schiavetta]

The author, while giving us a lot of facts, has strong opinions. The subtitle of the article is "the case for a 28th Amendment" by which decrepit Justices can be removed. He is upset at a lot of people including FDR who he feels dropped the ball when a solution was possible.

[not guilty]

I have heard that Hugo Black, Jr. once said that as a young man his father put on white robes and scared hell out of black people. As an older man he put on black robes and scared hell out of white people.

[not guilty]

Justice Black is the author of an opinion that I expect we will hear much discussion about as it relates to the prosecution of Donald Trump, especially the following excerpts:

It rarely has been suggested that the constitutional freedom for speech and press extends its immunity to speech or writing used as an integral part of conduct in violation of a valid criminal statute. We reject the contention now.

Giboney v. Empire Storage & Ice Co., 336 U.S. 490, 498 (1949).

It is true that the agreements and course of conduct here were, as in most instances, brought about through speaking or writing. But it has never been deemed an abridgment of freedom of speech or press to make a course of conduct illegal merely because the conduct was in part initiated, evidenced, or carried out by means of language, either spoken, written, or printed. . . . Such an expansive interpretation of the constitutional guaranties of speech and press would make it practically impossible ever to enforce laws against agreements in restraint of trade, as well as many other agreements and conspiracies deemed injurious to society.

Id., at 502.

[Magister]

I appreciate that this comment is really about Hugo Black, and interesting in its own right.

But I still want to take the opportunity to advance the suggestion of as little Trump in the SCOTUS history threads as possible. Someone suggested that every other open thread be Trump-free. Maybe the SCOTUS history threads could lead the way, when there's really nothing new reported about Trump, and therefore Trump comments would mostly just rehash the same well-worn paths. The movie reviews and long ago Supreme Court cases present plenty of fodder for new discussion, heated though it may be.

[Dan Schiavetta]

today’s movie review: When Harry Met Sally, 1989

This is a snappy, smart movie. I particularly remember the scene where Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan look at each other and realize they’re actually in love, no longer just friends. I’ve had a couple of occasions where I exchanged “that look” and if you’re lucky, you’ve experienced it too.

But the movie is based on a false premise, that if young opposite-sex people are close friends they will eventually get involved with each other. (Rob Reiner, who wrote and directed, also said this in an interview.) This was not true in my experience at all, in my years of being single. I had close female friends for years and we never got involved or even thought about it. This was true even with what are now called “friends with benefits” (in those days, we called it “friends that f**k”). Sex did not lead to a relationship, not even most of the time. And there was nothing wrong with that. We liked each other, obviously, and sometimes did things together, but it was unspoken that neither of us wanted to get involved. The f**king ended when one of us got into a relationship where we didn’t want to “cheat”. There was no “breakup”. And post-relationship we sometimes got it on again. This was not a cynical use of other people’s bodies, or emotionless sex. These were good, pleasant friendships.

This might have been a feature of single life in the 1970’s and 1980’s, but from what I read, things are about the same now.

Now let’s talk about that orgasm scene, with Meg Ryan in the restaurant. To see that in the theater was surprising to the point of being uncomfortable. But something about it rang false, or at least a little weird. It took me a while to figure out why. In the first place, Ryan gives what the audience is supposed to think is a dead-on imitation of a real orgasm. Strange, but I’ve never seen a woman have an orgasm like that, with the buildup and the “yes! yes! yes!”. B. just shook, then relaxed; L. shivered with an all-over sex flush (this is noticeable only in white-skinned girls, of course, and it was strange to see — it started under her breasts and spread all over her body); J. sounded like she was laughing; M. jabbed her heels into my butt and said “zhh – zhh – zhh”. Some women didn’t have an orgasm at all, unfortunately. As for my wife, she holds her breath, says “oh mi amor!”, then screams at the top of her lungs. (She then turns into a corpse, and finishing up I feel like a necrophiliac.)

So Meg Ryan is supposedly giving us a realistic-sounding orgasm but to me it sounded fake, like a porn-star orgasm. Maybe that’s just me. Obviously it did not seem fake to Ryan or Reiner; the point of the scene was that it was indistinguishable from the real thing.

More problematic is what the scene claims to say about women. Crystal has just said that women can lie but they don’t lie when they have an orgasm. Ryan demonstrates that yes, we women can fake orgasm quite convincingly. Afterward she pops an olive into her mouth with a big smile of triumph, having proved her point. But her point is that women can never be trusted at all, ever — not even as to orgasm. My word for that point of view is “misogynist”.

[apedad]

The restaurant scene was in Katz’s Delicatessen.

They deliver anywhere in the nation and I’ve done it several times, and it’s awesome.

The package is delivered overnight and the meats (and other perishables), come in frozen packets.

You drop them in boiling water for a few minutes to get them up to temperature.

https://katzsdelicatessen.com/

[Mr. Bumble]

Like a Jewish MRE.

[Frank Drackman]

To much trouble, always ate my MRE's room temperature.

[Mr. Bumble]

Are they stil shitty?
Remember them as LRPs when they were first introduced and the only one that was passable was the beef stroganoff. Much preferred C rations.

[Frank Drackman]

“Still”?? How would I know, I only ate them for a while in 1991, I think in 2021 they were ordering from Uber Eats as Kabul International was being Over-run. As a Doc I was allotted a small metal “AMAL Can” to bring my “Professional Equipment” probably 3-4 cubic feet, of course I filled it with canned Roast Beef, Texas Pete Chili, Hormel BBQ, Beanie Weanie, Beef Jerky. But you can go through 4 cubic feet of foot pretty fast, so eventually had to eat the MRE’s (M-eals R-ejected by E-thiopians) Favorites were the Beef Stew (made at the Hormel plant in Atlanta) Chicken & Rice, BBQ Pork & Rice (I’m Jewish, but it was Saudi Arabia dammit, and it was delicious) Spaghetti with meat sauce was straight from Chef Boy-R-Dee. Traded with some “Desert Rat” Brit’s but their old C-ration canned meals sucked, The newer Desert Storm MRE’s had Taster’s Choice instead of the Mil-Spec 7.62 NATO freeze dried, we’d sprinkle it on Tampa Nugget Cigars and smoke them for a little “Pick me up”

Everyone hated the “Charms” Candy, the chocolate cookie wasn’t bad, especially with the peanut butter you’d sometimes get, the “Oatmeal Cookie” looked like particle board but was surprisingly tasty, and would lock you up for a good 4-5 days, which was a feature, not a bug.

Biggest Joke was the tissue paper sized “roll” of toilet paper, see “Oatmeal Cookie”

Frank

[Frank Drackman]

Good Video here of someone trying Desert Storm Error MRE's after being in a Freezer for 15 years
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=MRE+Barbecue+pork+and+rice&mid=E61101ABF09E990DF537E61101ABF09E990DF537
Frank

[Mr. Bumble]

Sheryl Crow use only. C ration meals had the equivalent folded pack but they did have a 4 pack of cigs and there were a few P-38s in each case to open the cans. Still have mine on my key ring. Smallest multi-tool ever.

[Frank Drackman]

Still have my P-38, goes through TSA without a problem (and for any Potential Moe-Hammad Atta's, I can slit a Carotid with one stroke), met Sheryl C. later on in the 90's in Aviano, got called to the flightline for a "VIP" with a medical problem, usually some State Department Flunkie with "Airsickness" (AKA Hungover) this time it was an actual VIP, got tickets to her USO show, Homo AF Flight Surgeon tried to make me turn them in, what were they gonna do? shave my head and send me to Saudi Arabia?

Frank

[Dan Schiavetta]

Looks more like a restaurant, at least to me.

To my mind a deli has no seating, at least not to that extent. I grew up in one, owned by my father and my uncle. I’m marked for life: my right index finger is cut off at the tip: on June 14, 1977, I used the cold cuts slicer without putting the guard on. Another difference with Katz’s is that nobody thought I was having an orgasm.

Fortunately I was doing an order for hard salami, which is sliced thin; if it was liverwurst, I would have lost the entire joint.

[Mr. Bumble]

Katz's Deli still hangs a sign above the table that says, "Where Harry met Sally... hope you have what she had!"

[Magister]

I’m marked for life: my right index finger is cut off at the tip: on June 14, 1977, I used the cold cuts slicer without putting the guard on. Another difference with Katz’s is that nobody thought I was having an orgasm.

I laughed at the second sentence and then felt a tiny bit bad about laughing because of the first sentence.

[Dilan Esper]

Katz's Delicatessen was also party to the case that made poker games illegal in New York City.

https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-katzs-delicatessen-v-oconnell-1

[The Margrave of Azilia]

OK, congratulations, I've forgotten all about Justice Black now.

[Magister]

I think the opposite, the point of the scene being that women can be deceptive just like men, which supports feminism as the radical idea that women are human beings. Even to the extent of doing bad things, deception being one of the lesser. And men faking orgasms is a thing too.

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

I don't see how it's reasonable to conclude that if women sometimes convincingly fake orgasms they can never be trusted about anything. Weird jump. I think Ryan was just deflating Crystal's egotistical claim that women never fake orgasms with him.

I enjoyed the movie overall. Perhaps because of my dislike of Harry Connick's singing, one thing that always stuck with me was how Reiner uses Connick's version of songs throughout the movie, but right at the end when Crystal realizes he wants to be with Ryan, he switches to Sinatra singing 'It Had To Be You,' and it hits hard, for me because of the contrast with Connick's weak voice.

[Dan Schiavetta]

My memory might be off, but the general topic was “what do women want”? It’s so hard to tell — the worst way to find out is to ask them. Either they don’t know themselves, or they’ll just tell you what they want to be seen as wanting. If the only orgasms they have are real, at least you know for sure something that they want, and they’ve gotten it. Alas, no.

P.S. As I’ve pointed out before, the above applies mostly to young women. Once they get past 30 or 35 they know themselves better. Not that men are any more advanced but with them it’s different.

[Dr. Ed 2]

The other part of the faked orgasm was that Ryan's mother was present, she is the person who then says "I'll have what she's having."

And you also have to realize that we are now in the era of the 'hookup culture" -- where a girl will bed an unknown boy and then hope to develop a relationship from that the next morning.

[Magister]

Estelle Reiner? Not Meg Ryan's mother, nor is her character Sally's mother.

Dr. Ed 2's evaluation of hookup culture is at expected level. People jump into bed with unknown people because they want sex.

[David Nieporent]

Estelle Reiner? Not Meg Ryan’s mother, nor is her character Sally’s mother.

Forget it, Magister; it's DrEdtown.

[Magister]

I'm pretty sure I got an alert "Cleanup on aisle Dr. Ed 2". Probably auto-generated at regular intervals, though.

[Dilan Esper]

I agree the orgasm sounded fake. But it was probably real enough to fool many men, who are completely clueless about whether their partners are cumming. (There are still large percentages of women who have never had an orgasm with their current partner.)

As for the movie's premise, obviously the Friend Zone exists. But what the movie is really saying is that when you AREN'T in the Friend Zone-- when 2 people are obviously made for each other but are maintaining the "Just Friends" pose-- they will end up banging each other. I'm not sure that premise is completely true either, but I think it's narrower than you are stating.

Funny movie though.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Often, a woman who is about to have an orgasm looks and sounds exactly like a woman in pain. There is literally no way to tell, unless she says “oww!” or “take that thing out!!” or something similar. I've had that kind of thing happen to me. Women in general need to be more communicative and not put the burden on men to be mindreaders.

[David Nieporent]

Really think you're treading into TMI territory.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Just responding to Dilan. It is a point sometimes made.

[BravoCharlieDelta]

https://www.georgiarecord.com/elections/2022/12/25/ruby-freeman-body-cam-admissions-revealed-in-the-georgia-ballot-scanning-scandal/

RF is Ruby Freeman:

(22:10) RF: “But I do want an attorney, but nobody now its me, its all a fraud. So I do, I do wanted one, I know that I need an attorney. I have asked several different …. All about it and not heard back from. And even when I met with Secretary of State …they didn’t ask nothing else about fraud, they didn’t ask about an attorney. So, I do want an attorney. I know I need an attorney. I haven’t answered any questions because I don’t have an attorney.” “They went and asked something and said no you cannot answer that because it’s false. I didn’t even watch a lot of the Youtube, I think I saw one about the DA he said; and everything they are saying is false. Everything. From the quote unquote suitcases of the ballot boxes, to the why we opened them back up. Everything they said was false. Now if they’re they did say that they cut, they cleared, they cleared then they asked as to what happened with the ballot boxes and nobody telling me and I don’t understand that. The FBI, nobody has reached out to me. They reached out to me only to uh clear my social media”

She ended up getting a lawyer, and in an unbelievable coincidence:

Ruby Freeman’s lawyer since January 2021 is Michael Gottlieb who also was lawyer and fixer for Hunter Biden and Aaron Rich, brother to Seth Rich.

Now I know this is generally pointless around here because all these Serious People can't be moved from the beliefs they've been assigned, no matter how much evidence. Videos, audio, statistical, signed affidavits, nothing. They could even have been there in person watching everything unfold and have it narrated to them by God, but they would still see no fraud because they were told to see no fraud. Just like when they see an ugly man in a dress and are told they do ont see an ugly man in a dress. Guess what? They see a real authentic beautiful woman.

[David Nieporent]

Once again, BCD relies on something that isn't a legitimate media outlet — this is one of a string of astroturfed websites meant to look like local news — for some loony story that he bizarrely thinks reflects badly on other people for not knowing about.

1) There was no election fraud. Nothing in that random excerpt shows any fraud. The entirely-Republican government of Georgia has repeatedly told you that there was no fraud. Rudy Giuliani has admitted he was lying about it in Freeman's defamation lawsuit against him. When she's talking about fraud, she's talking about what people are saying about her, but BCD is too stupid to understand that.

2) It's unclear why it would be a significant thing — let alone something so significant as to justify a sarcastic reference to "unbelievable coincidence" — if two different people had the same lawyer; all practicing lawyers (other than in house) have multiple clients. The public defenders that have undoubtedly had to represent BCD on multiple occasions also had multiple clients.

3) In an unbelievable coincidence, BCD and his fake news sources are wrong; Gottlieb was not Hunter Biden's lawyer.

[Magister]

I am curious to what extent lawyers or law firms in politically related cases end up aligned with particular parties. While I expect Republican and Democratic politicians might go to the same lawyer to draft a will or for defense after a drunk driving arrest, I would be a little surprised if the same lawyer represented different major parties in different campaign/election related cases.

[David Nieporent]

I am curious to what extent lawyers or law firms in politically related cases end up aligned with particular parties.

It's not uncommon; there are well known biglaw firms that are conservative or liberal in orientation. Perkins Coie is a Democratic firm. (It represents the DNC, so it would be hard not to be.) Gibson Dunn is known as a Republican firm.

I would be a little surprised if the same lawyer represented different major parties in different campaign/election related cases.

Yes, because too many possibilities of conflict of interest.

[BravoCharlieDelta]

There are video and audio recordings, David.

And who cares what the GA GOP does? Just like with the TEA Party, establishment politicians will undermine any populist organic movement that takes power away from the elites.

Which of course triggers your pathological bootlicking because that's the worst case scenario for you.

[SRG2]

There are video and audio recordings, David.

...that are invariably misunderstood by people who don't understand the process. For example, there is a video of a "suitcase" full of ballots under a table that has BCD and other weak-minded Trumpists cry "fraud", as they're ignorant of the fact that uncounted ballots are stored in cases.

Affidavits aren't difficult to produce - what counts is whether they stand up as legitimate and reliable in court.

[BravoCharlieDelta]

There is video and audio of Ruby saying what she did.

It's literally right there in her own voice. She literally says her supervisors pressured her to increase the totals after being informed the vote was too low.

Ruby is on video and has audio recordings saying these things, much of it on police body cams. That's what the article has. Recordings of her.

I know, I know, that's still not enough evidence for you.

[David Nieporent]

It’s literally right there in her own voice. She literally says her supervisors pressured her to increase the totals after being informed the vote was too low.

And a normal, sane, intelligent, honest person — BCD is 0-for-4 on that score — would understand that she was saying that they were pressuring her to finish up the counting, not pressuring her to make up votes.

[Magister]

“My name is Trevian Kutti. I'm a crisis manager. Let her know that we are not affiliated with anything or anybody, but there's some things she should know”

Sure, crisis manager, not affiliated with anything or anybody. That's the part mentioned in the indictment about lying to Freeman's neighbor.

Not seeing evidence that pressure from the supervisors was to count improper votes. It seems aimed at getting more proper votes counted, if anything.

[David Nieporent]

There are video and audio recordings, David.

Indeed there are. And just like every other time you have cited a video or audio recording, it doesn't show or say anything remotely similar to what you claim it does.

And who cares what the GA GOP does?

People who aren't mentally ill conspiracy theorists and/or malicious liars.

[BravoCharlieDelta]

But I do want an attorney, but nobody now its me, its all a fraud.

It’s not a conspiracy theory that the IRS targeted TEA party groups and the DC GOP did nothing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/09/01/why-mitch-mcconnells-strategy-to-quash-the-tea-party-is-working/

Its not a conspiracy the GOP House is hiding 40,000 hours of J6 footage just like the Democrat House did.

It’s not a conspiracy that the GOP House is doing nothing about the DOJ abuses against Trump supporters. Well, check that, they are writing letters and occasionally making a mean tweet (which could possibly be felonious if it insults our Sacred Democracy).

It’s also not a conspiracy that 40,000 affidavits regarding election irregularities were dropped off at the GA SOS and they did nothing with them. Just as they did nothing when they interviewed Ruby.

It's not a conspiracy that as soon as Trump said anything about the 2020 Big Steal, Kemp couldn't get quick enough to the podium to call him a liar.

So who cares what the GA GOP thinks, other than you bootlickers? I’m not a bootlicking dipshit who heels to his political masters like you do.

[Magister]

I’m not a bootlicking dipshit who heels to his political masters like you do.

That appears to be exactly what you are. Your masters are those who generate the conspiracy-theory "news" you quote so frequently.

[Dan Schiavetta]

I assume BCD is BravoCharlieDelta. Mute him. That's what I did.

[David Nieporent]

It’s not a conspiracy theory that the IRS targeted TEA party groups and the DC GOP did nothing.

What exactly do you think the "DC GOP" should have "done"? Organized another attack on a government building?

[BravoCharlieDelta]

Hunter Biden also enlisted Klemm, a career diplomat, with the help of Michael Gottlieb, a partner at Boies Schiller Flexner, where Hunter was also serving as “of counsel.” When Hunter visited Romania, Gottlieb, who was pals with the ambassador, set up a meeting between Hunter, himself, Klemm and Klemm’s wife Mari, emails show.

https://nypost.com/2022/08/13/hunter-biden-met-with-dad-immediately-after-romanian-business-meetings/

Well, whaddya know? David pathologically lying again. Why do you lick the boots of these rich corrupt elites, David? It's reflexive for you.

[David Nieporent]

I am not sure whether BCD is actually illiterate or just functionally illiterate. Does that say that Gottlieb represented Biden? It does not. It says they were colleagues.

[BravoCharlieDelta]

Do you find it curious that a Crisis Management lawyer with ties to the Obama White House and Hunter Biden is down there representing Ruby Freeman some unknown election contractor?

Of course you don't, you only find it curious when the boots you lick don't taste like dog shit.

[Magister]

Unknown election worker brought to everyone's attention when defamed by Rudy Giuliani and OAN. Lawyer who represented her during her January 6th committee testimony.

[David Nieporent]

Do you find it curious that a Crisis Management lawyer with ties to the Obama White House and Hunter Biden is down there representing Ruby Freeman some unknown election contractor?

Do I find it curious that a Democratic-aligned lawyer would be representing an election worker in a case about a Republican attempt to steal an election and the Republican president and Republican president's lawyer personally targeting her? No. I would find it curious if she were represented by the local general practitioner advertising on bus benches and billboards.

[Frank Drackman]

So the first "Black" on the court wasn't Thourough(ly) Bad Marshall?? gotta use that one sometime.
And haven't checked the Wikipedia, but "White"'s gotta be one of the most common Surpeme names, funny how currently there aren't any "White's" on the Court.

Frank

[not guilty]

There have been two justices named White. Edward Douglass White (who served as an associate justice and later as chief justice) and Byron White. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_justices_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

[Magister]

Two Whites, one Black (and one Blackmun).

Still angry about Don Denkinger's series deciding call, but it was perhaps inevitable that out was safe, given that on the Kansas City Royals, Black was white and White was black.

[Dan Schiavetta]

The first black on the Court was Thurgood Marshall, who was the second Marshall, the first being a fierce defender of the slaveholding interest.

[David Nieporent]

But, fortunately and forever inevitably, no Blackman.

[Dan Schiavetta]

If Boris Johnson could become PM . . . if Donald Trump could become President . . .

[Frank Drackman]

I don't get it, despite their "faults" (I wish I had enough hair to have their ridiculous haircuts) they're both objectively (Growth Economy/Not Getting into Pointless Interminable Wars) better than any PM/POTUS since Margie Thatcher/Ronaldus Maximus.
And I'll take Net N' Yahoo over Begin any day,

Frank

[Frank Drackman]

Redbirds had their chance in game 7, trying to remember how that game went?? Extra Innings? Walk Off?? Amazing that the Royals have the same # of World's Serious Rings as the Cards since 1985, and have won one more recently (was it really 2015??)

[Magister]

Denkinger behind the plate, and John Tudor suddenly couldn't find the strike zone.

[F.D. Wolf]

And one Brown.

There was nearly another Black when President Buchanan nominated his Secretary of State Jeremiah S. Black to the Court on February 5, 1861 (one month before his Presidency would end and Abraham Lincoln's would begin). On February 18, a motion to proceed with discussion on the nomination was defeated 25-26. The Senate took no further action on the nomination which would lapse on March 4 with the end of the 36th Congress.

[Neugierige]

"Ego" Black.