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Jack Goldsmith Responds to Critics on the Dangers of Prosecuting (or not Prosecuting) Trump for Trying to Overturn the 2020 Election
I was one of the critics he responded to, and in this post I offer a rejoinder.

In a piece at the Lawfare website, Harvard law Prof. Jack Goldsmith responds to critics of his New York Times article arguing that the dangers of prosecuting Donald Trump for trying to overturn the 2020 election may exceed the benefits. One of the critiques he addresses is my own. In this post, I will offer a rejoinder. But note that both Goldsmith's analysis and mine are focused on the federal indictment of Trump filed by special counsel Jack Smith. We do not address the more recent Georgia indictment.
Here's the part of Goldsmith's response that addresses my critique:
I agree that "letting Trump off the hook" might be far worse than prosecuting him. My main point is that we cannot now know, and the answer is not obvious, at least to me, especially in light of our broken politics, the novelties and uncertainties in the legal case against Trump, the weight of past Justice Department mistakes and excesses in investigating Trump, and (to add a point not in my piece) Eric Posner's reminder that "trials in which legal proceedings are used to remove political opponents from power or prevent them from taking it … have a long and storied history of backfiring on their perpetrators." If Trump is convicted, and the trial is and seems fair, and the Supreme Court upholds its validity, Smith may well be a triumphant savior of American democracy, especially if Trump self-destructs in ways that diminish him politically. But what if only a few of these things happen, or none of them?
Somin says, for example, that if Trump is not prosecuted, future presidents will be emboldened to repeat his experiment. Maybe, but maybe not, in light of the financial and reputational costs Trump has suffered. The larger point, however, is that the prosecution might go off the rails in ways that make things worse. Somin's argument appears to assume that conviction is assured. What if Trump is acquitted (including via jury nullification), or his conviction is thrown out? What if it becomes clear that what he did was not unlawful, as may well happen? What if Trump wins the presidential election and perceived overkill by the Biden Justice Department is seen as a contributing cause? These outcomes might well embolden a future Trump more, perhaps much more, than non-prosecution. Very hard to say. In assessing the upsides and downsides of the prosecution, one must think in terms of all plausible futures and counterfactuals. Yes, as I said in the opening, the future may be such that non-prosecution would be worse, perhaps much worse, than prosecution. But the opposite might be true as well. We cannot be confident now.
I appreciate Goldsmith's thoughtful response, and am flattered he devotes more space to my piece than any of the others addressed. But I remain unconvinced that the risks of prosecution outweigh the benefits, or even that this is a close question.
Goldsmith is right that Trump could potentially get away with his crimes and be emboldened to further wrongdoing, even if he gets prosecuted (e.g. - he might be acquitted). But if he's not prosecuted at all, that possibility becomes a virtual certainty.
I do not, in fact, believe conviction is certain. But I do think there is a high likelihood of it, given the strength and seriousness of the charges against Trump. I discussed some of the reasons for that legal assessment here and here. I see little chance that a conviction would be reversed, given that the prosecution's position on most relevant legal issues is backed by longstanding Supreme Court precedent, and the Court has a strong presumption (recently reaffirmed) against overturning statutory precedent.
The risk of jury nullification is harder to gauge. But I think it, too, is relatively modest, given that strong partisans are likely to be removed for cause from the jury pool and jurors generally do a better job of controlling bias and evaluating issues fairly than voters (admitted a low standard of comparison). Moreover, the case will probably be tried in Washington, DC, where the jury pool is unlikely to include many hard-core Trump supporters.
If the chance of getting a conviction were very low or nonexistent, that would be a good reason not to prosecute. But that's pretty obviously not the situation here.
Goldsmith suggests future politicians might not be emboldened to repeat Trump's experiment, if he escapes prosecution, because of the "the financial and reputational costs Trump has suffered." It seems to me any such costs are greatly outweighed by the ways in which his Big Lie has enabled Trump to remain the lead contender for the GOP nomination, and avoid the kind of political repudiation usually suffered by presidents who lose their reelection bids.
I'm also skeptical the prosecution will somehow catapult Trump to victory in the 2024 election. It's possible the various indictments helped in him the GOP primary. But his lead over his rivals there is so large (consistently at 20-30 points or more over the last several months) that any marginal boost from this indictment is unlikely to be decisive. By contrast, survey data consistently show that indictments and conviction are likely to harm him with general election voters. If the election is close, even a small shift against Trump could be significant.
I'm not convinced that electoral calculations should play any significant role in decisions to indict and prosecute Trump. Ultimately, they should be guided by the severity of the crime, and considerations of retribution and deterrence. But for those who disagree, the available evidence suggests prosecution is more likely to harm Trump's electoral prospects than help him.
Finally, I agree we should consider "all plausible futures and counterfactuals." But there should be a heavy presumption against giving a president guaranteed impunity for the heinous crime of trying to use force and fraud to stay in power after losing an election. The scenarios and risks posited by Goldsmith are nowhere near sufficient to overcome that presumption. Indeed, they are much less grave than those on the other side of the ledger.
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We should not loose focus: Adam Schiff has been censured whereas Donald Trump has been thrice vindicated of any wrongdoing (twice in formal trials, once in the style of Lincoln whose unconstitutional actions were tacitly approved by the House). Regarding Schiff, who still looms in the colon of Congress like a dried piece of shit, history records "Whereas the allegation that President Donald Trump colluded with Russia to interfere in the 2016 Presidential election has been revealed as false by numerous in-depth investigations, including the recent report by Special Counsel John Durham, which documents how the conspiracy theory was invented, funded, and spread by President’s Trump’s political rivals; [...] Whereas for years, Representative Schiff ABSUED this trust by alleging he had evidence of collusion that, as is clear from reports by Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Department of Justice Inspector General Michael Horowitz, and Special Counsel Durham, never existed; [...]"
The Committee on Ethics continues its investigation "into Representative Adam Schiff’s FALSEHOODS, MISREPRESENTATIONS, and ABUSES of sensitive information." Who knows: Schiff, a domestic enemy of the Constitution, may be found to have used his position in a manner which threatened or undermined our democracy. Back in 2015, Orrin Kerr had some things to say about such things, as did others of this blog's Conspirators: I hope the "scholarly legal analysis" hasn't changed simply because the players have changed.
If you think a censure is worse than an impeachment, you might be in a cult.
If you think the impeachments of Trump were anything other than a partisan c clownshow you are DEFINATELY in a cult.
What's a definate?
It's an a [sic] misspelled adjective, you Muphry-compliant numpty. Adjectives don't take articles like "a", and unless you are a lawyer, you almost never form an adverb by appending -ly to a noun. (For some reason lawyers sometimes treat "timely" as an adverb rather than only an adjective; I guess that "to file timely" saves a word relative to "to file in time" when they cannot find a better place to trim verbosity.)
Not to worry, though -- they usually make up for it on the flip side with their preference for "filed out of time" rather than the more succinct (and symmetrical!) "filed untimely." Consistency, hobgoblins, &c.
Hopefully you can clearly and definitely see that the Tiny Dancer's use of the adverb was not one of those abuses of adverbs that are so frightfully common. Zhe was claiming that some are in a state of being in a cult and used the adverb as an intensifier to modify the verb "are". That zhe is a dimwit is beyond dispute but not indicated by his grammar in this case.
Whereas that's a lie, there's not much point in reading on.
I stopped at "...Donald Trump has been thrice vindicated of any wrongdoing..."
Don't forget that while an acquittal would be magnificent for Trump, it would still deter future ex-presidents.
Mainly because the precedent would be set for prosecution rather than against it. It would be really difficult to prosecute a future ex-president for similar behavior if we hadn't prosecuted Trump for it.
But also because courting an indictment and counting on an acquittal is pretty fucking risky.
Deter future ex-presidents from what?
Like the impeachment of Trump will deter future Presidents from making telephone calls to foreign heads of state?
No, the actual effect of that was to trivialize impeachment. Nobody gives a damn about whether a president gets impeached. Only partisan nitwits like you imagine ("If you think a censure is worse than an impeachment...", above) that you are getting away away with claiming that getting impeached by an enemy House is a bad thing. It's a big yawn.
Deter them from trying to extort allies into starting fake investigations into their political rivals, one would hope.
...except Biden did exactly what the investigation was a request for.
Any thoughts on GA filing charges BEFORE the grand jury was finished deliberating?
Crowdstrike? The server? Biden did what?
I gather they're just going to pretend it didn't happen.
I gather you're going to pretend something of enormous significance occurred that somehow negates any and all actual evidence.
Dunno -- seems like "FAKE DOCUMENT" may have ran into red-face problems and now the lemmings are all swerving back to saying it's real.
For example, the current version of this article is titled "Trump and 18 allies charged in Georgia election meddling as former president faces 4th criminal case," while the twice-archived prior version was titled "Georgia court website publishes, then takes down, list of criminal charges against Trump."
Can't post all the links, but current PBS article says "was indicted on Monday," and so on.
How they're going to square away the original pesky "still deliberating" problem that likely spurred the original "FAKE DOCUMENT" bandaid remains to be seen.
Oh, wow, yeah that sounds...um, conspiratorial!
You think it is bad process to have the indictment written before the Grand Jury returns? Or was posting it early a sign the court was insufficiency impartial during the grand jury process, somehow?
This is grasping at straws.
I gather you're taking the position that it's garden variety standard operating procedure and happens all the time -- particularly for a case this high profile and supposedly consequential, where back in the parallel universe the rest of us occupy the actors typically would want to be extra careful to insulate themselves from witch-hunt optics?
I think it looks like someone screwed up in posting it early, and it got taken down. I fail to see what substantive issue you think this goes to.
Some might consider evidence that the grand jury for this supposedly earthshattering of a case truly is just the proverbial rubber stamp to be a rather important aid in sizing up the merits of lather/rinse/repeat cycle #4, even before we get into the inevitable ivory tower fart-sniffing exercises over whatever avant-garde legal theories this particular set of charges may require.
Others might be more concerned at the optical level -- that the mask is fully slipping and we just don't care to pretend anymore about pesky things like rule of law and due process.
Then there are people like you, so doggedly determined to normalize anything that comes across your viewscreen that you kick the Overton window in the shins on almost a daily basis.
How is any of that shown by posting the indict,ent or early for a sec then taking it down?
Also grand juries are basically a rubber stamp. Maybe a speed bump is a better analogy.
And your some would say is some bullshit. Stand by your arguments.
OH. Then why is the entire national media and those that worship it swooning over this as though it's something more than just the latest prosecutorial wet dream?
Brian, just stop. You’re turning into Chucky: 100% Static Cling, no actual substance.
You think the DA waits to write a 97 page indictment until after the grand jury votes? “Ok boys, start typing!”
That’d be weeks of speculation and leaks… and all of you whining about “Why didn’t she have the indictment ready to go? This delay is an intentional gambit by a rabid prosecutor to persecute Trump with strategic leaks and innuendo rather than a legitimate indictment!”
You’ve become pathetic. Find better defenses.
Randal, I'm not going to bother addressing your army of straw men -- not one goes to my exquisitely narrow point re optics and norms that y'all seem desperate to distract from. Even kangaroo courts at least try to wrap themselves in some level of plausible deniability, and bit by bit we seem to be losing the desire to even bother with any of that silliness.
I will, however, bookmark this exchange for the next time you guys whine about anything like this in situations where you're not swilling beer and cheering for the preplanned outcome. As is increasingly common, the current mob is pretending that pendulums don't swing and that precedents like this don't boomerang down the road.
I'll allow to to refine your point down to the extraordinary banal "the prosecutor was gunning for an indictment all along!"
Yeah, can't wait for you to throw that brilliant insight back in my future face!
Refine? The thread is here for all to read. If that's what it takes for you to save face as you bail out of the discussion you parachuted into with your snippy straw men, whatevs.
And the fact that prosecutors routinely gun for pet projects is not the point here. We still follow our chosen and established rule of law by going through the process even when the outcomes are mostly predictable -- "mostly" being rather important in a situation like this. After the indictment was "accidentally" posted, was it realistically possible for the grand jury to no-bill it?
True dat! Allow me to refer the audience to this gem from just above:
Because... a prosecutor gunning for an indictment somehow violates the rule of law and due process? Amazing.
I really, truly can't believe you posted that as a supposed gotcha directly in response to me saying: "We still follow our chosen and established rule of law by going through the process even when the outcomes are mostly predictable . . ." Talk about bookends!
I'd ask if you even try to read what I say and think about it before reflexively belching out your next response, but the question is increasingly rhetorical.
I'll also note you went full-on ostrich on my question about what remaining level of latitude this particular grand jury realistically had after being backed into a corner via the "accidental" sneak preview of their decision. Unsurprising, I suppose, since it too was fairly rhetorical.
Oh, I just assumed that was a throwaway attempt to save your face.
Let’s see… so you think the DA asked the court to post the indictment early, and they agreed, and then took it down again to make it look like an accident, and then the DA told the grand jury about it, thinking that it would force the grand jury’s hand, and it did force the grand jury’s hand, because they’re totally fine with being unethically manipulated? And of course, as with all conspiracy theories, everyone’s going along with it, even the grand jurors! No leaks!
Wonderful theory. Now I know what you’re going to say: “I don’t believe that, but someone might! Optics!”
If someone believes that, they’re already in the conspiracy theory cult. It’s impossible to accommodate that crowd, their minds are made up.
So what are we left with? Someone made an embarrassing but harmless clerical mistake?
Once again, I’m willing to let you refine your argument down to “It sure does look incompetent to have posted the indictment early!” and then I'll point out that it’s hardly a harbinger of the end of the rule of law and due process.
And once again, I note your compulsive need to throw around double handfuls of distractive confetti so that maybe -- just MAYBE -- I won't notice that you once again ducked my very simple question: regardless of whatever innocent excuses you may wish to concoct for why this particular exceptionally low-key case is the only one that seems to have suffered from this sort of "accident," what realistic choice did the grand jury have once it was done?
Clearly the answer is straightforward enough that not even you can honestly contest it. Maybe there's hope!
Accident in scare quotes, we are going in deep folks!
What if the grand jury returned no bill? Would they have been killed by the Hillary death squads?
Do you know how grand juries work in practice? It seems like you don’t!
Yeah, what Sarcastr0 said. Why would the grand jury care? What, are they checking their phones and then are like oh no! If I vote against, it'll... embarrass the court clerk look even worse? I don't get it.
So if what you really really want is a literal answer to your literally stupid question:
The exact same choice they had before it was done.
GA shows that these are all show trials -- as we watch a once-great nation collapse. They are blasting out the piers in the foundation one by one with no thought of the whole society collapsing into civil war.
How does GA show anything unfair is going on?
Histrionics yes, civil war no.
The civil war will be because they won't let us go -- it's gonna be a national divorce. And I'm so glad I blocked Nimrod....
I'm still waiting to see what Georgia does to Fulton County.
Our states don’t work like that anymore.
He didn't try to extort an ally into starting a fake investigation into his political rival. He tried to extort an ally into announcing a fake investigation into his political rival. He didn't want an actual investigation because he knew that wouldn't help him, since there wasn't anything there. He just wanted the illusion of one.
It was easy to trivialize impeachment without the chance of conviction. It's not going to be easy to trivialize prosecution in multiple jurisdictions with centuries of prison time on the line. And you indict somebody on enough charges, in enough jurisdictions, you ARE going to convict them of something, particularly if you can hold the trial someplace their party only gets 5% of the vote.
So, no, this WILL have a deterrent effect. It will deter people who care about their good name from running for the Republican nomination, or working for Republican candidates. Republican administrations will have increased staffing problems going forward. Lawyers will think twice about accepting Republican judgeship nominations, when they're sure to be accused of raping somebody at an unknown location and time decades earlier.
And it's not even going to be symmetric.
You do enough crimes in enough jurisdictions you're going to get into a lot of trouble.
'And it’s not even going to be symmetric.'
There's such an hilarious assumption here.
I am puzzled by your suggestion about deterring Republicans. The fact is there are many honorable members of the Republican party. Many of these people stood up to the former President. Many testified against the former President. When the smoke clears from this chaotic period these people will be able to stand tall. They will be like Margaret Chase Smith.
When they get the civil war that the Democrats are inexorably working toward, it will be symmetric with "the unity of the graveyard."
Children paying with fire can be quite dangerous.
'We will fight and kill and die for this crook who tried to overturn an election' isn't exactly a rousing battle cry or anyone's idea of a just cause.
To them it’s a just cause because they are stupid enough to believe that Trump is neither crook nor blackguard, and unprincipled enough to think it permissible to overturn an election shown to be legitimate in countless court cases in order to put their Dear Leader
on the throneback in the White House, rather than a Democrat.No, we think that, with few enough exceptions, politicians are all crooks and blackguards, so we don't particularly see the difference between Trump and a hell of a lot of people who never get prosecuted. Watching the way all the evidence leading from Hunter's dirty deals back to Joe gets dismissed sure hasn't refuted that belief.
Would I prefer a President who was neither a crook nor a blackguard? Sure. On the day Rand Paul gets elected President, I'll hold a pig roast for the neighborhood! But I don't expect to see that in my life.
Your investment in Trump’s factual innocence belies this attempt to appeal to general cynicism.
Which is itself a fallacy - to take the general for the specific.
Yes. From experience, his "above it all" cynic routine is a hard sell.
Did those hell of a lot of other people try to steal an election or stage an insurrection?
Trump is a special case. He didn't merely loot the treasury, which, sadly, you are correct that other politicians do as well. His crimes go to the very nature of our democracy itself and our basic democratic institutions. He launched an attack upon the system itself. Had he succeeded, it would have been the functional equivalent of a coup. Like I keep telling you about whataboutism, if you must engage in it, try to find cases that are apples to apples.
Watching the way all the evidence leading from Hunter’s dirty deals back to Joe gets dismissed sure hasn’t refuted that belief.
Brett - on the one hand, you dismiss all politicians as dirty liars. On the other hand, you take Republican spin on a bunch of disconnected facts about Hunter as gospel truth. And you wrap your arms around Trump, who was renown for his lies and corruption, well before he ever got serious about running for President.
It makes no sense. One group of lying, corrupt politicians pretends that they want to help people. The other group just lies to you without any promise of any benefit to anyone besides themselves, and doubles down on their corruption as it comes to light. Yet you embrace the latter.
No, Nige -- but "we will fight and kill to overthrow a corrupt system" *is* and historically has been.
John Hancock was a notorious smuggler -- the Revolution wasn't about him and his profits but the larger sense of injustice. So too here.
As the SYSTEM is increasingly shown to be corrupt, the revolt will be against THE SYSTEM and not on behalf of Trump, more than he becomes a maytar to the cause.
Read Machiavelli sometime...
Nobody believes the right gives a shit about corruption, because they voted for Trump, they rioted for Trump, they claimed to believe Big Lies for Trump, they support Trump despite his multiple indictments. You fight for Trump, you're fighting for corruption and venality and the abuse of power.
No, that's stupid. No one's going to fight a civil war against a generalized "system" if you can't explain what's wrong with it, how you're going to fix it, and why that fix requires a war.
If your problem is just "there's too many Democrats around..." that's a very lame war. Let's say you win and form Redmerica, and then have some liberal children. Are they supposed to move to Bluemerica? If so that's a little sad. If not then your "fix" will only last a generation or two.
I remember when threats to fight and kill to overthrow the government were criminal. Or at least enough to prevent one from things like admission to the bar. I can’t believe so much to our country has devolved this far.
I will go with what Alan Dershowitz believes: what we will get are some convictions that will be overturned on appeal. That will be disastrous for the country.
He’s more advocate than analyst. I wouldn’t lean on his expertise; he has said some laughable stuff lately.
He's also one of the country's most successful criminal appeals lawyers. Ignore his thoughts and concerns at your own peril.
He may have legitimate concerns, but in this article he says:
That's delusional.
Why is that delusional? Why should I discount the views of the man who litigated the 2000 election? Why should I discount the views of the man who has been winning criminal and constitutional battles for over 50 years?
His legal argument is based on the non-legal delusion that Trump had a legitimate basis for believing he won. Thus, his legal background is not relevant to evaluating his argument.
Also, Gore was asking for legal recounts under the normal process. Trump was asking for extralegal vote tally manipulation.
I mean, come on.
No, Gore was asking for recounts and vote finding that the US Supreme Court determined to be illegal. Trump was not asking for anything extralegal.
Wrong. Just stupid.
I refuted the entire premise of his blog yesterday with two simple sentences.
He says simultaneously that it's clear what the 14th refers to, while also concluding that it's 'too vague.'
He's an idiot, and the people who think otherwise aren't much better.
Dershowitz's opinion that article 3 of 14A only applies to Civil War Confederates seems ridiculously wrong to me. But I suppose we'll see, when SCOTUS eventually grants cert.
I agree it is impossible to know in advance the consequences of prosecuting Trump. Given that our politics is broken, the rule of law cannot be one of the casualties. It is when the times are dire and the outcome is uncertain that adhering to the rules becomes most important. Rules and norms have a way of getting us through rough times in a way that ignoring rules and norms does not. Four grand juries have independently concluded that there is enough to justify criminal trials; let those trials go forward.
The cherry on top of the sundae in Atlanta is that Trump will be ineligible for a pardon from the president or the governor.
The cherry on top of that cherry is that neither will the other 18 coconspirators. That means Trump has very little to offer them.
Why would he be ineligible for a pardon from the governor? Most states allow governors to pardon for nearly any conviction in the state. Is Georgia different?
True. Except as it happens, the current Governor of Georgia is a Republican with Integrity (an "RWI") whom Trump considers and enemy, and tried but failed to unseat. So for the near future, seems as though the governor's position will be held by an RWI or a Democrat. Neither of whom would be in a pardoning mood.
A politician of integrity would not have run for governor while continuing to hold the office that oversees elections.
I typed “Georgia pardon governor” into Google and got the answer in five seconds.
To answer your question: yes, Georgia’s governor doesn’t have a pardon power; that power is vested in the State Board of Pardon and Paroles.
My understanding is that in Georgia, you have to have served five years of your sentence before you can request a pardon.
From what I see today, the five year thing is a norm, not a requirement. And we've seen how GOPs respect norms. More worrying is that GA recently created a board with the power to remove prosecutors. They were asked the obvious question, whether this was targeted at Fani Willis, and they replied it didn't become effective until mid 2015. Just before passage they changed that to this October.
Yes, Georgia is different. Pardons there are handled by the State Board of Pardons and Paroles.
The Democrat D.A. in Fulton County didn't just order the arrest of Trump, but of twenty opposition leaders. Even Xi Xiping and Vladimir Putin haven't done that yet.
Excepting those charged with war crimes, no Confederate leaders were prosecuted for anything. But "malice toward none" is not in the nature of the modern Democrat party or Somin and his ilk, who favor petulance and division.
Being from Texas, I am familiar with repugnant Democrat prosecutors bringing frivolous, ludicrous indictments against Republicans, i.e., Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, Gov. Rick Perry, and, currently, state Attorney General Ken Paxton. None of those resulted in convictions, but, in the case of DeLay and Perry, ended their political careers, which was largely the point of the indictments anyway. Texas Republicans did nothing to retaliate, as I suspect the national Republicans will likewise not do. The Trump D.C. indictment is very reminiscent of the Perry indictment. Perry had threatened to veto funding for the Travis County D.A.'s office if the D.A. did not resign. He was charged with "coercion of a public official". The Texas Court Criminal Appeals ruled that the governor's threat to exercise gubernatorial power was not criminal.
As for "jury nullification", even Somin is bright enough to know that has no chance of happening in D.C., where a jury would convict Trump of literally anything, and he'll have no aid from the most conflicted, anti-Trump political hack of a judge who has already decried Trump not being in prison in a previous January 6 case.
As for deterring a future President, that will only apply to future Republican presidents (should we ever have one with our corrupt election system). Democrat presidents know they will never be charged, much less convicted by a jury in America's sleaziest, most corrupt city. And as for "retribution" for dubious "crimes" with zero victims, unsurprisingly, the great libertarian endlessly caterwauling about overcriminalization, overcharging, and overincarceration, is suddenly thrilled at the prospect of a politician he has been screeching about for 8 years spending the rest of his life in federal prison.
Or, maybe Trump really did break the law and really does deserve to be criminally prosecuted.
Nope.
The guy behind Trump University break the law? Inconceivable!
https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1691425147985506304
Gandy, "(i)f Trump is convicted, and the trial is and seems fair, and the Supreme Court upholds its validity," would you change your position?
Or would you remain a petulant, little boy with balled up fists and a pouty lip?
So now the SCOTUS is legitimate?
Of course, until it isn't.
BCD misses the point again (which is surprising considering his superior intellect).
In other words, if the totality of the process is deemed to be fair, would any of you Magaroonis be willing to acknowledge that.
Apedad, you are repeating what was the Klan's justification for lynching Black men. I somehow don't think you realize that...
Pretty sure the KKK didn’t talk much about the process being fair, actually.
States rights was their argument.
T-hey believed that the Black men whom they were lynching were guilty -- and some probably were.
Same thing with all-White juries -- "Bubba and the boys are good Christian men who go to church every Sunday, they wouldn't convict some n***** or something they didn't think he did..."
That's equally true, they wouldn't convict a Black man of something they didn't *think* he did...
But never think that the Klan was merely murdering Black men -- they were murdering Black men (and some White men, don't forget that) whom they thought were guilty of crimes warranting execution --- the worst part of all of it is that they thought they were doing the right thing.
THAT is why I am drawing the references back to the current attempts to lynch Trump.
And it's amazing that somehow with every explanation it only gets fucking stupider and stupider. That it's grotesque and offensive and aggrandising is all a part of the fascistic mythologising of Trump as some sort of kitsch All American warrior/athlete martyr/messiah being persecuted for his principles, even though his major selling point has always been that he doesn't have any principles.
No Queen, more like trying to rape White women.
That dosn’t make sense because Trump has also been accused of rape and sexual asault but the KKK support him.
It's coming from the same guy who told us about all the good things Hitler did.
Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner were rapists. Who knew? And, Metger Evers -- rapist. Martin Luther King -- rapist.
As others have noted, this is pretty stupid.
Crimes have laws associated. The KKK wasn’t into US laws.
They didn’t think of the blacks they murdered as criminals.
The Republican party may not retaliate, but there are plenty of people who are angry at the establishment - made up of Republicans and Democrats - who possibly will retaliate.
The idea that people like Sidney Powell and John Eastman, much less Robert Cheeley or Shawn Still, are "opposition party leaders" is laughable. Nice try, though.
You think Putin hasn't arrested and/or had murdered more than 20 of his political opponents?
Wrong. Just stupid.
Care to elaborate? I would enjoy reading a well-reasoned Putin defense. Are you capable of such?
That was a mispost due to some weird error on my end. It was posted further up top. And no, I don’t see any argument that Putin hasn’t arrested or murdered at least 20 political opponents.
Well, I assure you I am more than capable of being both wrong and stupid.
And possibly the only honest comment in this thread so far...
"Moreover, the case will probably be tried in Washington, DC, where the jury pool is unlikely to include many hard-core Trump supporters."
Conviction is guaranteed.
I find it troubling that one of the primary arguments lately is "Just try Trump in DC".
DC is an incredibly biased district, as compared to Florida or Georgia where the voting population is better split. A reasonable person should understand this, and understand why it's problematic to be relying on.
It's like saying "oh, just try the black man for murder in the district that has 95% KKK members".
I think it might be more troubling that suddenly trial by jury is unacceptable, because Trump.
Nice strawman. No one is making the argument that trial by jury is unacceptable. They're saying that, when the venire is incredibly biased against the defendant (as indicated by 95% of the district voting against the defendant), you might question whether that district is the proper place to conduct the trial. In fact, ArmchairLawyer's comment about Florida or Georgia being better venues makes it quite clear that they regard trial by jury as acceptable; it just has to be in a less biased locale.
They think a partisan Jury will convict him so instead, by their lights, they want pro-Trump juries that will acquit him. I think this throws the jury system out the window, conceptually.
They don't care, because the left don't have to worry about anything similar. There isn't any jurisdiction in the country that's remotely as right-wing Republican as DC is left-wing Democratic, so they can always count on a few Democrats being on the jury.
The worst part of this is that the situation isn't remotely symmetric between the parties. The Democrats genuinely don't have to worry about tit for tat, because this is a tool only they have access to.
You know, maybe Trump should stop handing the Democrats so much ammunition. I've expressed this earlier: Trump spent all his life being a crook and simply failed to appreciate that with the presidency comes intense scrutiny. If you're president, and you break the law, someone will find it just because you've got so many people watching you.
So yeah, the Democrats have put him under a microscope to see what they will find, but that doesn't change that he really is a crook who broke the law. Nixon was run out of town on far less provocation.
Krychek,
I don't particularly like Trump. But I do see the prosecutions against him as being unjust. The FBI literally manufactured evidence in order to keep investigating him and his campaign.
If you don't see that as a problem, I don't know what to tell you.
I don't see it as a problem because I don't believe it happened. Why would the FBI need to manufacture evidence when we've got Trump himself gloating on tape that he broke the law?
Sigh.. Seriously?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/19/us/politics/kevin-clinesmith-guilty.html
The article is behind a paywall so I couldn't read it, but I was able to see the headline; the story seems to be about the FBI and the Russian investigation. None of Trump's indictments has anything whatever to do with Russia. Not one. They all involve attempts to steal the 2020 election, stealing money from his New York charities, and the events of January 6. Yes, there was a rogue FBI agent or two who inserted themselves into the Russian investigation and they've since been fired and jailed, and the FBI was being run by Republicans at the time.
So . . . do you have any actual evidence that the FBI manufactured evidence falsely charging him with stealing the election, January 6, or stealing money from his New York charities?
The article is about how the FBI fabricated evidence in an earlier investigation against Trump. Here's a non-paywall account:
FBI Attorney Admits Altering Email Used for FISA Application During "Crossfire Hurricane" Investigation
"Prior to the submission of the fourth FISA application, and after Individual #1 stated publicly that he/she had assisted the U.S. government in the past, an FBI Supervisory Special Agent (“SSA”) asked Clinesmith to inquire with the OGA as to whether Individual #1 had ever been a “source” for the OGA. On June 15, 2017, Clinesmith sent an email to a liaison at the OGA (“OGA Liaison”) seeking clarification as to whether Individual #1 was an OGA source, and the OGA Liaison responded via email to Clinesmith. On June 19, 2017, Clinesmith altered the email he received from the OGA Liaison by adding the words “not a source,” and then forwarded the email to the FBI SSA. Relying on the altered email, on June 29, 2017, the SSA signed and submitted the fourth FISA application to the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The application did not include Individual #1’s history or status with the OGA." {"Individual #1" was Carter Page.}
Armchair cited it as evidence of the FBI being unprofessional in going after Trump. For "Criminal actions" values of unprofessional...
Is there any actual evidence they "went after" Trump for the stuff he's actually under indictment for? As I said before, no real need for them to make stuff up with all the stuff they've got on tape.
You mean, is there any evidence that a previously proven corrupt FBI didn't magically clean up its act? I suppose that could have happened, without anybody noticing.
You know, when Lavrenty Beria famously said, "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime." he didn't mean he'd necessarily invent a fake crime. Often he wouldn't have to, though he wasn't above doing it.
Politics in this country are dirty enough that, once the authorities decide they're going to nail somebody to the wall, if they devote enough resources to it they'll eventually find some sort of crime. Most politicians survive only because those resources are never deployed against them.
I'll gladly grant that Trump made it easier than it had to be for them to find that crime. But they WERE determined to find one even if they had to invent it.
Actual evidence, not handwriting attacks on the FBI being bad.
They are; that doesn’t change the indicted facts.
All these facts are made up and it’s all a conspiracy, cry about Soviet Russia, and you can’t believe anything is a place some are going. But no one will follow them there, that’s just denying reality.
So Trump can't be guilty based on all the evidence because all the politicians and the FBI are guilty based on the no evidence.
Do you mean how he committed the crimes in a very obvious way?
Kevin Clinesmith is not "the FBI." And it wasn't an investigation against Trump. Other than that, spot on.
And yet, weirdly, they didn't do that. It's been eight years since Trump came down that escalator, and this is the first time they've actually tried to prosecute him.
Just like we have Biden on video literally bragging that he broke the law. The difference is that the Establishment cheers Biden on, while the Establishment feverishly works to get Trump thrown in jail or kept off the ballot.
I like it when the right brings up some thing they have been yelling about in their media and assume we all know what they’re talking about.
They can bring the tape of Trump to court as evidence of his guilt; you could bring the video of Biden to court as proof of his innocence - other than that they're exactly the same!
What law did Biden brag that he broke?
I don’t like Trump but is new GOP song.
Anyone who reads your comments knows that’s a bunch a crap.
It's telling that you, Brett, and others focus on Clinesmith rather than the Durham Report more generally.
Clinesmith altered one piece of evidence with information he wrongly believed to be accurate. The Durham Report otherwise (claims to have) found that the FBI didn't always follow all of its rules when evaluating evidence, for purposes of opening investigations, didn't seek enough "exonerating evidence," and wasn't always fully open with the FISA court when seeking warrants.
This is a far cry from your characterization - which, at best, may be said to have only a slight kernel of truth to it. Most of the FBI's evidence was authentic. Most of the FBI's actions were in accordance with its own rules. And, importantly, most of the FBI's actions were legal. Durham sought, but did not find, a "deep state" willing to do anything to stop Trump. He hardly brought any charges, and lost many of the ones he did bring, and he made no recommendations for changes to the FBI's procedures. He just concluded, "Hey, do better."
The FBI does a lot of bad things and has certainly made up evidence against a lot of people.
Is your theory that because of the FBI's previous bad behavior, the federal government should not be able to prosecute any crimes? Or what's the limiting principle? If the FBI does something bad in relationship to one particular individual, they're not allowed to investigate that person ever again? It seems hard to imagine that any approach other than looking at their behavior with regards to any particular case or investigation is going to be workable, so it's probably more helpful to explain why you think a particular current case or set of evidence is politically motivated rather than relying on an investigation that did not produce any charges against Trump.
You beat me to making that point. Which was good, because you made it more clearly than I would have.
"You know, maybe Trump should stop handing the Democrats so much ammunition."
I've said something like that myself; If Trump came into office thinking he'd be allowed to get away with the shit Presidents normally get away with, that illusion should have been dispelled within weeks.
The moron KNEW they were out to get him. He had to know it! He'd been under continual legal assault from practically the time he announced for President, and even the DOJ didn't let up after he took office: Rosenstein literally wrote the memo recommending firing Comey, and then used Trump acting on it as an excuse to appoint a special counsel! If that didn't tell Trump he had a target on his back, what would?
And he kept leading with his chin anyway! He never learned anything the whole time. I liked a lot of his policies, but even if people were out to get him, he did keep making it easy for them, and I found that infuriating.
I’ve said something like that myself; If Trump came into office thinking he’d be allowed to get away with the shit Presidents normally get away with, that illusion should have been dispelled within weeks.
Correction:
Trump came into office thinking he'd be allowed to get away with the shit he thought Presidents normally get away with.
I mean Bill Clinton got impeached for lying about an affair, is that really a standard Trump would want to be held to?
One thing that's clear is that Trump never really understood the job he was applying for.
He saw the results of Presidential power (President says X and X happens) but he never understood the constraints (lots of internal discussion to understand the parts of the Constitution and statutory law that allows the President to say X).
Not to mention all the norms in place to stop Presidents from abusing their power and/or generally doing dumb things.
Rosenstein literally wrote the memo recommending firing Comey, and then used Trump acting on it as an excuse to appoint a special counsel!
A memo (and conclusion) that Trump ordered him to write.
Either way motivation matters, the reason Rosenstein wanted to fire Comey was quite legitimate, Comey completely bungled the Clinton email investigation and broke DOJ policy with major announcements days before the election.
It turns out Trump's actual motive was killing the investigation into himself, which obviously necessitated the investigation be continued by a special council investigation that would be far harder to kill.
And of course, Trump spent much of the first 2 years working to do exactly that.
"I mean Bill Clinton got impeached for lying about an affair, is that really a standard Trump would want to be held to?"
Didn't get prosecuted afterwards, now, did he? And it wasn't just the perjury, he also suborned perjury from others, and had evidence destroyed. His flunky got off pretty easy after robbing the National Archives to get rid of some embarrassing documents, too.
"A memo (and conclusion) that Trump ordered him to write. "
So what? He still wrote it. If he was going to sic an independent counsel on anybody who acted on it, he should have had the principle to refuse to write it. If it wasn't awful enough to refuse to write, it wasn't awful enough to justify the independent counsel.
I think he was NOT any friend to Trump, and was glad enough to have an excuse to sic Muller on him, and that's why he wrote it.
"It turns out Trump’s actual motive"
Casually assuming evil motives isn't the same thing as their BEING "actual motives".
'Casually assuming evil motives isn’t the same thing as their BEING “actual motives”.'
Wise words. You should tattoo them somewhere.
Casually assuming evil motives isn’t the same thing as their BEING “actual motives”.
So are you claiming that Trump didn't actually fire Comey to get rid of the Russia investigation?
Trump did not “act on it.” Trump first decided to fire Comey, and then asked Rosenberg to write up a memo to justify firing him. And then Trump, being Trump, admitted that he actually did it to stop the Russia investigation. At that point, Rosenstein had no choice but to appoint a special counsel.
The DC issue is a long term issue, that may require radical realignment of the federal government and lawsuits regarding the federal government.
Congress can pass a law moving lawsuits concerning the federal government or federal government employees in DC to a randomly selected district around the country. That would help alleviate the extreme partisan bias of the jury there.
This isn't a lawsuit; it's a criminal prosecution.
The solution is to abolish DC -- give it back to Maryland.
Better yet, turn it to glass. Nothing of value would be lost.
Or better yet, make it a state.
If the actions at issue took place in DC then that is where the trial should take place. That’s ordinary procedure.
The DC trial is inherently unfair is ignorance of the jury system, of human nature, and an utter lack of actual meaningful evidence. Well, ignorance and lies. And sometimes racism!
The increasing volume of the argument I take as a sign of lack of confidence Trump will escape without consequence.
"It threatens the nation's freedom and democracy! The whole nation this, the whole nation that! Oh, try him in this one little biased place, just a coincidence, so it's ok."
It's facetious to pretend there isn't method to this madness.
Ah yes a conspiracy to try Trump where he is accused of doing crimes.
"It’s facetious to pretend there isn’t method to this madness."
Keeps me laughing.
The 6th amendment requires an impartial jury, in addition to the jury being in the state and district the crime was committed in. Interestingly, DC isn't a state....but that's an aside
More importantly how ever, when the district cannot have an impartial jury, it is important to remove the trial to a place where there can be one. As with the example, a district where the jury base was 95% KKK members, the trial would be moved to a more fair district. If you just wanted to convict the black guy, and didn't care about a fair trial, do it in the 95% district.
Likewise, if you actually want a fair trial, the trial can't be in DC. If you just want to convict Trump, and don't "care" about a fair trial, do it in DC.
I find it concerning Somin is concerned about "hard core Trump supporters" in a state that voted for Biden by a narrow margin, but finds no issue with the inherent issues in DC. Fair trial, impartial jury? These seem not to be needed.
Saying DC cannot have an impartial jury is an embarrassing argument for anyone who went to law school to make.
You seem to be analogizing voting for Biden with being in the KKK. You are a ridiculous person.
The example is clearly hyperbolic to prove a point. You use such tactics all the time on this site. Pot, meet kettle.
I have no problem with trying to find an impartial jury in DC. However, for supporters of the Orange Clown, there is an obvious optics problem. Is that bad? Maybe. Is it best avoided by having a change of venue to MD or VA? Maybe.
But, it seems that you are afraid of the venue being outside of DC. Why?
You don't do it, because nobody else has ever been afforded such a bullshit excuse for moving their trial either.
Trump shouldn't be treated any differently than any other defendant.
" Fair trial, impartial jury? These seem not to be needed."
Reminds me of the trial of the Scottsboro Boys. Didn't SCOTUS throw that out?
What ever would the left do if SCOTUS tossed this all out?
Again, equating living in DC with being in the KKK says more about you than DC.
I think the fact that Trump defenders' apparently complete lack of confidence that he can convince even one juror out of 12 in D.C., is telling. (Disclosure, I am from and live in D.C.)
In D.C. the 2020 presidential vote broke down 92 - 5 for Trump vs. Biden. One-third of the D.C. electorate (which I believe is substantially the same as those eligible for D.C. jury duty) did not vote -- many, perhaps most of those people are politically disengaged or otherwise apathetic toward Trump. If at least half of the non-voters are fair, that alone is about 16% of the total eligible jurors, on top of the 3% of the total electorate who voted Trump.
And, of course, voting for Biden in 2020 does not automatically turn someone into a Trump-hating zombie. There are plenty of those people, for sure, but plenty of Biden voters (like Trump voters) are rational, too.
So odds are high that any D.C. jury is going to have rational members who can prevent a unanimous conviction. Yet I repeatedly see Trump defenders implying they expect his defense will not persuade any of those jurors.
The District of Columbia's voting behavior in presidential elections is not relevant to a defendant's request for change of venue. United States v. Haldeman, 559 F.2d 31, 64 n.43 (D.C. Cir. 1976) (en banc).
Yeah no doubt the choice of venue for the January 6 case is ironclad. I am simply making a point about how unpersuasive Trump supporters implicitly admit the defense is going to be.
No, not legally relevant. Just relevant to whether half the country will think he got a fair trial.
Trump is being indicted for things he’s admitted to and has even boasted about. Some of it is even on tape.
Seriously, you could listen to a tape of Trump ordering a submarine sandwich, and hear him confessing that he robbed a bank, you're that far gone. Putting sneer quotes around the word "find" doesn't make a request for access to voting records into a demand that they be falsified.
It is pretty obvious that the former President was asking for votes that did not exist. Brad Raffensperger was badgered by Trump but continue to explain the vote count was good and that the then President lost.
It doesn't matter if Trump was asking for a chance to find something that didn't exist. All that meant was that he wouldn't find it. Asking to do a futile search for evidence that doesn't exist isn't the same thing as demanding that evidence be fabricated!
This is a ridiculous comment. Asking for something he knew wasn’t there, threats if it didn’t happen, subsequent attacks on Twitter.
At a time when it looks like a whole bunch of other illegal stuff was being attempted to overturn the election.
The dignity one must give up to make these arguments is astounding.
And given how nasty he was to Brian Kemp, no real probability that Kemp will pardon him. It's harvest time.
Kemp couldn't pardon him in any case, Georgia is one of the few states whose constitutions don't give the Governor that power.
"Asking for something he knew wasn’t there"
And there you are, assuming he was guilty. You were certain they weren't there, so HE had to be certain of it, too.
I’m assuming he knew the votes weren’t there.
On account of an election occurring and the vote number not being what he wanted it to be.
If that is evidence he is guilty, that seems a Trump problem. And a you problem because you’ve really tied yourself to him.
Show me the part where Trump offered a bribe.
I didn’t say that.
Also you don’t care. You think overturning elections is legit payback for the left being bad.
Look, if he wants to go with an insanity defense, let him. Otherwise, he was certain of it.
Give up? Brett strikes me as the kind of person who never had dignity to begin with.
"Asking to do a futile search for evidence that doesn’t exist isn’t the same thing as demanding that evidence be fabricated!"
Brett -- Trump didn't say "search," he said "find." Because it is literally impossible to "find" something that both people know doesn't exist, there is an implied meaning here. You seem to be suggesting that Trump avoids liability because he didn't literally spell out what he meant.
Funny that they didn't mention that in the charges. Hmm..I wonder why that could be?
? That's Count 28.
Sorry, you're right.
Bluntly, this is a blindered distortion. In the 2000 election, both parties moved Heaven and Earth to find more legal votes, and in ways particular to benefit them.
You hear what you want to hear, like a stupid, sarcastic, public joke that maybe Amrica's enemies could find Hillary's emails where she couldn't, was a loud crypto request for illegal spying.
It must be fun to be someone who tosses things into the various echo chambers to see if the rubes take a bite. We know this is mocked by one side on the other, while the other side is clearly nothing but honest, true beliefs of serious nature.
Now tell me again how, after bipartisan shutdown of the economy during covid, why the Democrats ran scary ads of "30 million unemployed" on a black backdrop with low-frequency somber music.
You sure are going way off topic to find something to get mad about!
"In the 2000 election, both parties moved Heaven and Earth to find more legal votes, and in ways particular to benefit them."
"Find" is doing a lot of work here. In 2000 the opposing camps were litigating what qualified as a proper vote. I don't believe there was any need to "find" *evidence*, because there were no significant disputes of fact. I think Gore's camp was wrong on the law but neither his camp nor Bush's was allegedly *lying* about what happened in the election.
Bluntly, this is a blindered distortion. In the 2000 election, both parties moved Heaven and Earth to find more legal votes, and in ways particular to benefit them.
Fun fact, the butterfly ballots confused thousands of Gore voters into voting for Pat Buchanan (well more than Bush's margin of victory).
I just want to take a moment to appreciate how insanely livid Trump, the GOP, and all the alt-right folks here would be if they had a claim about 2020 that was remotely as strong as that.
Hell, if they even had one as strong as 2016, with Comey repeatedly breaking DOJ policy in the Clinton investigation, right down to dropping a huge October surprise.
Given that they are Democrats I see their confusion as it’s 1000% projection of what they were doing and Democrats do nothing but project their sins on others.
This is a very funny post.
Seems like the sort of question that you might put to a jury and see whose interpretation they agree with, no?
Even if you were being reasonable about what he was saying — and your position is laughable — it's a jury question.
Truly, this shows that "threats to Democracy" -- threats which must be fought at any cost, even if Democrats have to throw out the Constitution in order to ensure Democracy (rule by Democrats) -- include facts, civil order, informed voters, the rule of law, and Republicans who won elections.
For all his flaws, Trump is not half as bad as what Democrats and the Deep State have already done to fight him.
You are the one that say’s illegally overturning the will of the people os okay because libs bad, right?
You are wrong. As usual.
You forgot the special rules for SarcastrO: 1. SarcastrO is ALWAYS right. 2. If SarcastrO is wrong see rule #1.
That was Ejercito.
But your Dems are worse than anything Trump did seems at least inching towards Dems Bad as a justification for some awful Trump stuff.
Payback is justified at any and all costs!
As I pointed out, the Democratic Party has become the party of Maraxus!
https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/08/17/ethics-dunces-abc-news-jonathan-karl-and-the-sunday-morning-roundtable/#comment-225848
World-renowned legal ethicist and my Facebook friend, Jack Marshall, was alarmed about what Maraxus wrote.
And now Maraxus's ideals are the rules now.
That sounds like something people who are willing to overthrow elections results would say to justify their actions.
So you know what Kevon Clinesmith was thinking.
No, I know what you and your Facebook friend are thinking. For my sins.
Yup. Michael P. You are 100% right.
Considering that nobody is 'throwing out' any part of the Constitution, you're both wrong and you're both idiots.
By "throwing out the constitution," do you mean prosecutors bringing criminal charges against Trump before article three courts, where they will have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt?
No, by coming up with creative interpretations of criminal law.
That have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt in court. Where due process is given to Trump. Still haven't thrown out the constitution.
Prosecutors do so frequently as long as they think that they can win the case.
Isn’t the concern with the prosecution less a future President emulating Trump, than it is a future party emulating what’s been done to Trump?
I mean, let’s not pretend this has all been driven by Trump.
People were speculating about impeaching Trump before he’d even secured the nomination! Polls showed a majority of Democrats in favor of impeaching him in February of 2017! Long before he’d done anything at all to justify it, they couldn’t even identify what to impeach him over. It wasn’t him, because he hadn’t had time to DO anything. It was tolerance for the other party winning elections dropping below some critical threshold.
A political hit job being used as an excuse to wiretap his campaign was just the start, he was under continual legal assault the whole time, to a degree no prior President has ever seen.
But future ones will see it, that’s for sure.
I’m not going to say that he didn’t often make it easier than it had to be. A smarter man would have realized that he had to be cleaner than clean in such an environment, wouldn’t have assumed he was entitled to break the letter of the law just because everybody in DC was breaking it and getting away with it.
But even a smarter man wouldn’t have come through this unscathed. A synchronized legal pile on, and trials arranged to happen in places where your party has single digit support? Lawsuits where the accuser doesn’t even have to identify the time and place of the alleged assault? You don’t have to be guilty to go down in an environment like that.
Basically, our politics have now gone through a probably irreversible phase change. Yes, we ARE now a banana republic. Every future Presidential race will revolve as much around lawfare as it does campaigning, maybe more.
Trump wasn’t the cause of this, there were signs already that it was coming. But you sure made him into an excuse for it. Hope you enjoy the result.
....
And now? A prosecutor announces the charges against him before the grand jury has held a vote. Apparently grand juries are just formalities now. And you're going to find nothing suspicious about that, right?
'People were speculating about impeaching Trump before he’d even secured the nomination!'
People were chanting 'lock her up' along with Trump. So what?
Not once do you even entertain the possibility that he might be actually guilty, you ignore his crooked history, his personal amorality and make a bunch of dumb excuses for him, as if he were a child, not a grown adult man who made his own decisons and has to take responsibility for his own actons, and who has cheerfully helped ruin other peoples' lives or stood by while they ruined theirs on his behalf.
At the same time you helped elect him, and now refuse to take any responsibility for the outcome other than to plead impunity for Trump and for his supporters.
The difference is that Hillary had already DONE something to create those calls. All Trump had done was campaign for the nomination.
"Not once do you even entertain the possibility that he might be actually guilty, "
"A smarter man would have realized that he had to be cleaner than clean in such an environment, wouldn’t have assumed he was entitled to break the letter of the law just because everybody in DC was breaking it and getting away with it."
I think Trump is probably guilty of at least some of this crap. But, formerly, "no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case", as Comey said while letting Hillary off the hook for an easily prosecuted crime.
'Hillary had already DONE something to create those calls.'
Yes. Run against Trump, we know.
'But, formerly, “no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case”,'
Oops, false equivalence! Minor Democratic transgressions that didn't amount to criminal conduct MUST be treated the same as massive criminal conduct by Trump or it's not fair!
'He's guilty but he MUST be let off' is a heckuva argument.
Right, Comey held that press conference to discuss Hillary deciding to run against Trump. And that’s what Lynch and Bill were discussing in that parked airplane, too. Nothing at all to do with mishandling classified documents or responding to subpoena by wiping a hard drive.
By the way, I’d be happy to see Trump nailed to the wall if I thought this meant EVERYBODY in DC was going to be required to obey the law going forward, if he was going to have bipartisan company in prison. I don’t think anybody believes that’s going to be the outcome here.
Wow, if only you had proof for stuff instead of speculation, guesswork, inference and insinuation.
Yeah, you'd see Trump nailed to the wall if everybody, regardless of their guilt or innocence was nailed to the wall first, which is hardly a standard for law'n'order, more a kind of Trump exceptionalism. You can't complain that your guy gets indicted more just because your guy does more indictable shit and the other guys don't. Well, you can, it's dumb, but you can.
Literally, you can find Comey's press conference on youtube, and he wasn't making excuses for not prosecuting Hillary for running against Trump. It was for mishandling classified information, and wiping a hard drive whose contents were under subpoena.
When people were crying "lock her up!", they were very clear about what she'd be locked up for. When people were demanding in 2017 that Trump be impeached? They didn't have any charge in mind, they just wanted him impeached.
Too bad the circumstances were such they didn’t amount to crimes.
Yeah, they wanted her locked up because she was Hilary Clinton. You think the people who voted for the guy behind Trump University give a shit about actual law and order?
Turns out anyone predicting that Trump would commit impeachable acts was spot-on.
Comey didn't even say they weren't crimes. He just asserted that they wouldn't ordinarily be prosecuted. And he's right, until Trump came along, 'important people' got to be above the law.
But Trump isn’t being prosecuted for anything that ‘wouldn’t ordinarily’ not be prosecuted – and it’s your lazy self-serving assumption that only ‘important people’ weren’t ‘ordinarily’ prosecuted for what Comey was referring to. Whoever sent the emails that were later classified wasn’t prosecuted, either, even though theirs was the actual offence, nor were the people who were actually responsible for the server being wiped. But you already know this. You also know that the claim that no important people were ever prosecuted before Trump is hilariously stupid. That’s just sad.
"even though theirs was the actual offence"
In email, Hillary Clinton tells aide to send talking points "nonsecure"
Not if they did it at her direction.
Did you read the article, or just seize on a headline you liked? Nothing in that identified the thing she was asking for, so nothing in that says that it was classified.
What's wrong with sending talking points 'nonsecure?'
There was no hard drive "whose contents were under subpoena." You should not get your info from right wing sources, but from legitimate news outlets. Or even better, from official sources; you can find a copy of the subpoena.
Amos 5:7
“Isn’t the concern with the prosecution less a future President emulating Trump, than it is a future party emulating what’s been done to Trump?”
Turnip is indicted under almost 80 charges in four jurisdictions based on mountains of physical evidence and testimony. You can pretend otherwise all you want, nobody can stop you. But you are not worried that some future dem with mountains of physical evidence and testimony against them will be indicted. Me neither. They should be. You’re worried a criminal and corrupt ex-potus with whom you share a bond of cruelty and hate is going to prison where he will die. And that’s a pretty shitty worry.
Anyway, the question should be, if you cared about such things, “Won’t this just embolden MAGA to do more Benghazi, emails, and Whitewater charades?” The answer here is also “no.” MAGA is as likely to keep chasing Hunter’s dick through 2028 if necessary regardless whether Turnip was ever held to account.
‘People’ talked about impeaching Hillary during the campaign when it looked like she would win. Also Obama before he took office. Bush I was too young. But Bill Clinton absolutely had a right wing press already talking about impeachment as he moved in from Little Rock.
This isn’t a sea change. What is extraordinary is not the choices the Dems are making, it is Trump. His actions were extraordinary.
You can try and low key threaten that the GOP will become unhinged against Biden. But that will be on them, since Biden has done nothing like Trump.
It’s telling you dint dispute the facts here, just whine about prosecuting based in them. Because in the end the arguments boil down to Trump should get away with this because or else.
I’m an optimist. Not so I don’t think the GOP won’t try some heinous shit. But I don’t think it’ll catch on with the voters.
"But Bill Clinton absolutely had a right wing press already talking about impeachment as he moved in from Little Rock."
Ima gonna disagree there.
You are almost right in a very literal sense: "By October 1993, a petition was being nationally circulated to impeach Clinton for, among other offenses, allegedly abusing his office and causing "great prejudice to the cause of law and justice". The petition was organized by Carol and Michael Benn." (Wiki)
But note the footnote - that article was in the ... Munster, Indiana Times. Population 20K. That is the usual crank stuff you always have (cf "Impeach Earl Warren" billboards).
Contrast that with prominent senators rumbling about impeachment: "In December 2016, Democratic senators Elizabeth Warren, Dick Durbin, Chris Coons, Ben Cardin, and Jeff Merkley introduced a bill that would require the president of the United States to divest any assets that could raise a conflict of interest, including a statement that failure to divest such assets would constitute high crimes and misdemeanors "under the impeachment clause of the U.S. Constitution", (source is wiki article titled "Efforts_to_impeach_Donald_Trump").
I'm old enough to have lived through Nixon, Clinton, and Trump. The vitriol thrown at Trump even before his inauguration was unprecedented in my lifetime (dunno about, say, Lincoln). You can say 'well, sure, but that's because he was uniquely bad'. That may be true - but don't say 'he wasn't treated differently'.
I was not politically conscious then, but I listened to a podcast about the early Clinton days recently. Slow Burn is what it’s called.
The right wing radio machine was already up and running, and had some scandals from the AK days they were pushing just about as soon as the election dropped.
The National Review editorial page was who they cited as I recall. I’m on vacation so I can’t do a more exhaustive search.
I also don’t think you can say much about differing standards if the underlying individual is uniquely bad, since you have no precedent by definition.
Same podcast talked about the Nixon impeachment.
His supporters continued to support him after he resigned. But after a while they just lost interest and joined the Reagan coalition. That’s what this feels like. Ride or die till Trump is done then it’ll be ride or die for some other guy.
"I was not politically conscious then, but I listened to a podcast about the early Clinton days recently"
"Same podcast talked about the Nixon impeachment. "
I was paying attention both times, and my recollection doesn't really square with your podcast. Tricky Dick really really didn't have any supporters post resignation, in the sense that Trump does today. Even staunch conservatives had had enough of him. I just can't imagine, say, a 'Nixon 1976' or 'Nixon 1980' campaign. I think your podcast might be looking through a pretty partisan lens.
Related: "But once he was gone, the Americans were not quick to forgive and forget. In September, a 58% majority said Nixon should be tried for possible criminal charges. And they took the view that he should not be let off the hook easily, if found guilty. By a margin of 53% to 38%, the public thought that President Ford should not pardon Nixon, if he was found guilty." (and when looking at that 58%, remember politics wasn't quite as hyper-tribal than as now).
I remember being pretty unhappy about the pardon, for the same 'no one should be above the law' reasons being articulated here. In time, though, I changed my opinion. You want a norm of 'if you go quietly, you'll be left alone'. I'm a little conflicted about Trump - if he'd gone quietly, I'd apply that to him. But he hasn't exactly gone quietly.
Yeah, as I recall, even a lot of Republicans were not terribly happy with that pardon. It stank of a quid pro quo, Ford got to be President, Nixon got a pardon.
I thought it was a terrible precedent to set, one that lasted half a century. And I never did change my mind about that.
Nixon’s approval rating was about 25% when he resigned (select “8 years” in “How Biden compares with past presidents” from this link.)
Thanks for the info all.
"The vitriol thrown at Trump even before his inauguration"
That is because he was a corrupt asshole and ne'er-do-well long before his election.
Brett, will we even have an election in 14 months?
I'm starting to fear we won't.
The wild card in Georgia is the rest of Georgia -- MTG country -- which I don't think is going to tolerate a Black woman lynching White men...
Abolish Fulton County -- the legislature could do it.
Step aside democratically elected Kim Jong Un, we've got Dear Leader Biden and his "greatest election fraud machine in US history" to usher in our own great leap forward into progressive nirvana under one party rule.
“Lynching white men”. What a fucking awful thing to say. Every remembers all the grand jury time and the press conferences that went into a good ol’ fashioned lynchpin’.
And it was always a thrill when the targets were supposed to come in voluntarily for arraignment. Would they show? Usually not, of course, as they were afraid they’d get lynched.
Comparing the treatment of Trump here to the victims of actual lynching is obscene.
...
Yes, the Democrats "arranged" to have Trump commit crimes in Washington, D.C. How clever of them.
She certainly did identify the place.
Still lying about this, I see. This never happened. (Go ahead, cite one stupid headline of no significance that clearly was not acted on.)
His campaign wasn't wiretapped. (In fact, nothing was.)
A lot of people are hanging their hat on, "they'll investigate any politician in the middle of the election" conveniently leave out that they cheered this on when Hilary was running.
I say investigate them all. Too many people outside the system believe it is corrupt, so lets get the sunshine on everything.
“Yes, not prosecuting a former president solely because he’s a former president might be worse than holding that former president accountable for his crimes and corruption, but what if prosecuting him ends up worse?! So let’s not prosecute him. You know, just in case” should be embarrassing. Humiliating even.
Pretending these prosecutions are an attempt “to remove political opponents from power or prevent them from taking it in any context except as a consequence of being convicted on close to 80 charges in four felony prosecutions should be disqualifying from anything other than Dershowitz’s sad and lonely end of season party on the Vineyard.
The phony naïveté in this response is insulting. “If the trial seems fair… and the Supreme Court upholds it”?! First, Turnip, et al., will scream “unfair” every minute of every day straight through to his prison funeral. No. Matter. What. Second, what are we expecting the USSC to overturn here? Wouldn’t rely on them anyway. I haven’t seen Big Baby’s name come up as one of the Alito’s or Thomas’s hosts/benefactors. Turnip’s not the only person who never forgets a snub, he’s just the loudest.
Like the old saying goes, Mr. Goldsmith, “When lighting one’s professional dignity on fire, stop digging.”
'in light of the financial and reputational costs Trump has suffered.'
His legal troubles bolsters his support with his base and they're all paying for his legal fees via campaign donations.
And I love it because that's that much less money available for Republicans to use to campaign. Trump is literally sucking the life out of the GOP. I wonder how many Republicans secretly hope he drops dead of a heart attack within the next six months.
Sorry, you lost me in the first sentence. "Lawfare" website ? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
or
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
" Moreover, the case will probably be tried in Washington, DC, where the jury pool is unlikely to include many hard-core Trump supporters."
...and where the jury pool is heavily weighted with hard-core Trump haters.
Goldsmith is right that Trump could potentially get away with his crimes ... I do not, in fact, believe conviction is certain.
But you know he's guilty. Conviction or not, Trump is guilty. End of story. Lock him up and throw away the key. Who even needs a jury? Hell, just execute him now.
You say it's about "the law", but obviously the only thing that matters is "Trump bad".
You, too, can read the indictment.
The strawman of the anti due process anti-Trumpist continues to be without evidence of an actual person.
"But there should be a heavy presumption against giving a president guaranteed impunity for the heinous crime of trying to use force and fraud to stay in power after losing an election."
And, here it is again. The evidence free assumption that Trump was legally responsible for the January 6th break in at the Capitol. That's the "force" Ilya is referring to. Evidence he was behind that? There's none, but who needs evidence?
I'll ask you outright, Ilya: What "force"?
His speech is violence, whereas their violence is speech. Isn't it obvious?
Ilya didn't say Trump caused the force. He said he used it. It's irrefutable that Trump used the assault on the Capital, whoever caused it, in his attempt to stay in power after losing the election.
How did Trump "use" the violence in that way? The rioting was the death knell for all of Trump's actual hopes for the day.
Which might suggest who was really responsible for starting it, even if you don't believe the FBI had as many undercover agents and informants in the crowd as they claim to have had.
No; it was the linchpin of his hopes for the day.
And though Ilya didn't say Trump caused the 1/6 violence, I will. I'm not convinced yet beyond a reasonable doubt -- that's what trials are for -- but to suggest the notion is evidence-free is risible. What do you call the bloody-shirt tweets and speeches, and ordering the Secret Service to remove the magnetometers?
What bloody-shirt tweets and speeches are you referring to? The one where he entreated his audience to "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard"?
Trump supposedly asked the Secret Service to remove magnetometers at his rally, which was at the Ellipse near the White House. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55575260 has a map for people who have never been to downtown DC -- the rally and magnetometers were about 1.5 miles away from the Capitol building.
Donald Trump is not being charged with vicarious criminal liability for the actions of the Capitol rioters. What he said to the crowd is relevant as bearing on his culpable mental state, but it is not the gravamen of any offense he is being prosecuted for.
Yes the only relevance I was imputing to his order to remove the magnetomoers is his guilty state of mind. And of course I know he's not being charged with inciting the riot. On re-reading my comment I see it was confusing. My use of "yet" was a poor choice of words. The trial I was referring to is hypothetical. I'm not under the illusion this is something I'll see argued and proven in court.
Not thinking he has to worry about his own crowd indicates a guilty state of mind? I don't follow.
The normal security rule prohibits armed rally attendees because those people pose a danger to the speakers and other attendees. Abrogating that rule because the only people Trump believes will be endangered are his opponents is of course evidence of a guilty state of mind.
Mind you he'll also excuse the actions of Hillary and every co-conspirator in her administrative state coup to nullify the 2016 election.
I am shocked, and deeply disappointed, to find that Eric Posner's examples of times that criminal trials of sovereign leaders backfired includes only two examples that are... English and French monarchs? International law is supposed to be one of Posner's specialties. Surely he can familiarize himself with the several such prosecutions that have occurred in democracies over the past century or so.
People who have studied the matter more closely (or, perhaps, who have written on the topic with less bad faith than Goldsmith and Posner) have generally found that the difference between a successful and unsuccessful prosecution of a corrupt would-be authoritarian leader tends to turn on the number and comprehensiveness of the charges and prosecutions brought. According to these commentators, a single case brought by the Manhattan DA, for instance, based on a novel legal theory and convoluted argument, would probably not be enough to put an end to Trump's career. But the multiple cases being brought, and variety of charges, may be sufficient to convey to the public that Trump is simply too corrupt, too driven by self-interest, too chaotic, to be worthy of continued support.
Time will tell. But certainly I have to agree with the background observation that, win or lose, conviction or no, Trump has given no indication whatsoever that he would have weaponized and corrupted the federal government any less, had these charges never been brought. That has been Republicans' plan all along. So, certainly, trying to make that case as patent to the American people as possible won't hurt.
Well, of course it's going to turn on the number of charges. That's become a standard technique these days: Bring one or two charges, and there's a fair chance you'll fail to convict. Bring a separate count for every character in the allegedly fraudulent document? A jury, sadly, is likely to think that the very number of charges must mean guilt.
Charge stacking is SOP these days.
So is sentencing on the basis of charges for which there was no conviction, which I expect to see here, too. Our 'justice' system is a real mess.
'Charge stacking is SOP'
For example?
"Overwhelming evidence of guilt is, in fact, evidence of innocence."
"Charge stacking," in most everyday criminal trials, is typically done to achieve one of two things - to push a criminal defendant into a plea deal, or to make clear to the public that the criminal defendant has engaged in a profoundly reprehensible series of criminal acts.
Do you think Trump's prosecutors are expecting Trump to plead guilty?
Trump has not been charged, and likely will not be charged, for many crimes he in fact committed. These charges have been brought only after a long period of foot-dragging and avoidance - you might recall that Bragg initially dropped the NY investigation he inherited, and took up the new "hush money" case only after apparently being convinced that he needed to, while Garland took a long time to get around to appointing Smith, and gave every indication that he was reluctant to prosecute Trump himself - and the specific charges focus on specific acts rather than grand schemes and nebulous accusations. Trump is getting full due process and a long leash that wouldn't be afforded most criminal defendants (and still he cannot resist pulling for more leniency). He has one judge advocating from the bench for him, the first charges to be tried will probably result in an acquittal, and conviction on any of the rest is far from certain.
If you are worried for Trump, donate to his legal defense fund. Fools and money, etc. But he's getting treated with kid gloves and will beat most of these charges, one way or another.
"“Charge stacking,” in most everyday criminal trials, is typically done to achieve one of two things – to push a criminal defendant into a plea deal,"
Whether or not they're actually guilty...
"or to make clear to the public that the criminal defendant has engaged in a profoundly reprehensible series of criminal acts."
So, for purposes of jury tampering.
I don't know which is worse: How many abuses have become routine in our 'justice' system, or how accepting of them people have become. I guess they go hand in hand.
It is quite a tell you call Hillary a felon with no indictment just based on your own investigation and judgment, but ignore heaven and earth to deny Trump did anything wrong despite indictments walking you through it.
Why didn't you answer his post?
Instead you switched to Hilary, hardly illuminating to anyone.
"I don’t know which is worse: How many abuses have become routine in our ‘justice’ system, or how accepting of them people have become."
And that's why what the Dems are doing is so incredibly dangerous.
It's not just Trump but showing objectively disinterested (apolitical) people how truly corrupt our "justice" system has become -- and how racially biased it is. Throw in a large cadre of alienated White males and things could get quite nasty, quite quickly.
There’s the race card. Those blacks in Georgia and DC sure do have white folks unhappy! As though you speak for anyone but your own racist ass.
We won’t have a race war over Trump. Or anything. We aren’t that country anymore.
Oh, shut the fuck up, you disingenuous asshole. If these were stacked charges for a Black drug dealer, you would be all in favor. Throw the book at him!
It's not my fault you have to go back to your con-man-in-chief as the subject of your unpaid virtual fellatio, ever since pudding fingers imploded on the national stage. Miss me with this bullshit.
Sheesh. I have a record on topics like this, going back decades. I don't know why you're mistaking me for a drug warrior and "Rah, Rah, cops always right!" sort of guy.
I have a long record of thinking the American criminal 'justice' system is nothing of the sort.
Politically, this indictment is an escalation. The Democrats are forcing people to either sit out the election or vote for Trump on principle -- something they don't want to do, but they will if they must. That's a pretty big gamble! I predict it will turn out about as well as removing the requirement for a supermajority vote in the Senate to consent to the appointment of a Supreme Court justice.
'It's okay, guys, the Democrats are basically forcing everyone to vote for the crook who tried to overturn the results of the election where most of them voted agaisnt him!'
Nige, ever hear about "the lesser of two evils"?
Why did the US support Stalin during WWII? Because Stalin was a nice guy???
I actually agree with Ed!
I think the appropriate analogy for Trump is probably Stalin. Both of them are notable fans of the transfer of power.
Except Stalin had a much better 'stache. 🙂
(Joking aside, if the analogy you need to reach for is making an alliance with STALIN in order to defeat HITLER, then you're not really helping your case, are you?)
Prosecuting Trump for his crimes is the lesser evil to not prosecuting him for his crimes.
Republicans should want Trump off the ballot and out of the way as soon as possible.
Biden is not a strong candidate. His age is a clear liability. But as long as the Orange Clown is the opponent, he has a second term.
This.
But I'd add that we can't be certain about electoral calculations anyway. During impeachment #1, there was a lot of talk in the pundit class of what Democrats should do: what if impeachment actually helped Trump's reelection chances? Should they still pursue it? Obviously I thought about that, but the conclusion I came to was: there are lots of unknowables there. Maybe if one knew for 100% certain that impeaching Trump would get him reelected, one would factor that in, but one couldn't possibly know that. Therefore, the right thing to do was to do the right thing.
If you thought his actions merited impeachment (spoiler alert: yes) then vote to impeach, and let the chips fall where they may.
Same here. Prosecute, or not. But do it based on the normal considerations for whether to prosecute someone, not based on guesses about an election that is still a year and a half away.
Some people have (not unreasonably) speculated that the true motivations for these indictments is to make Trump even more popular with the primary voters.
While I have some sympathy towards that idea, I don’t think it’s universally held or a unifying yet secret conspiracy to make it happen. The simpler explanation, just like the first impeachment, is that indicting him feels good. It’s a dopamine hit to the body politic.
Of course, just like Harry Reid abolishing the judicial filibuster to stack the DC Circuit, the sugar high may be short lived. By dressing up these indictments as justice for election denying and trying to overturn an election (pretending such political actions are criminal), instead of focusing on possible particular lesser crimes which don’t satisfy that itch, they are but assuring a future round of retribution, late Roman Republic style.
A president is elected by the electors, not the popular vote, and the choosing of such electors and their ballot casting a fixed calendar moments. But of course the anti-Trump Resistance doesn't believe that mechanism is legitimate, because they believe in popular election legitimacy over the electoral college, so they reinforce what Trump and his loonies have been trying to pretend is possible with reinstatement talk. We get the politics we deserve I guess.
As Stephen Michael Stirling pointed out, this has not diminished his support among voters in general.
Because his supporters are fools. Politically brain damaged fools. Who hate Trump’s enemies so much they’ve lost their shit.
There is no way anyone rational could support this garbage.
Of course rational people can support this.
Have you heard of payback?
Have you heard of Maraxus?
Everyone knows Maraxus of Keld's power and toughness are each equal to the number of untapped artifacts, creatures, and lands you control.
How is that relevant?
The trial of Donald Trump and others in Fulton County is likely to be televised. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/georgia-cameras-sharpen-focus-trump-courtroom-rcna99066 The case, involving as many defendants as it does, is likely to take several weeks or perhaps months to try.
If I were a delegate to the Republican National Convention, I would want to see the trial proceed to verdict before the convention.
If people were sick up to their back teeth of Trump in 2020, I can't imagine how radioactive he's going to be after a televised trial.
He didn't try "to overturn the election," and no one reasonable thinks he did.
Yes he did and all the reasonable people do.
Only the cultists can't see that. Seek help.
He was trying to fortify the electoral vote.
Hoppy, you just keep on telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
14A requires the prosecution of Trump and his Merrie Men. It really is that simple.
In what fucking sane world is letting someone off better than not?
The law is the law. Throw the asshole/traitor in prison!
Do the same to EVERY politician if they broke the law. JFC- how is this even a debate?
Because he didn't break the law. It's a politically motivated prosecution, and you know it.
Come back to me when the jogging contingent are prosecuted for their violent crimes.
https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4152644-federal-judge-tosses-suit-against-biden-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-for-long-term-borrowers/
Time to get rid of standing once and for all.
Trumps plan seems to be to insist the Georgia election was indeed stolen from him. Good luck with that,
I have it on reasonable authority that Trump's real plan is that some guy, named John Miller, is going to call all of the judges and tell them that Trump couldn't have committed any crimes, because he's too awesome and was too busy bangin' hot babes.
Since that's obviously a component of claiming he's innocent, yeah, he's going to do that.
Doubling down on attacking the 2020 election is sure to work out great.
Gateway Pundit and Dinesen D’Souza and the like have not caught fire in America at large.
It's exactly what you'd expect somebody who genuinely thinks they were cheated to do, though.
I think Trump is simply incapable of processing the fact that he didn't win reelection.
This is separate from the question of whether he'd have won if existing election laws had been followed. It was close enough that he plausibly would have. But they weren't, and he didn't.
"I think Trump is simply incapable of processing the fact that he didn’t win reelection."
Yet he seems to vacillate, if we believe the accounts of statements he's made acknowledging he lost.
Regardless, to the extent this is correct, surely it's no legal defense that someone is "unable" to believe something that's true and contrary to their own self-interest. Somin gave that example earlier of a thief who steals a valuable ring, convinced it's "really" theirs.
...unless of course we are literally talking about the insanity defense
You don't engage in illegal activity to steal an election you think you rightfully won.
I guess Brett thinks that Not Guilty by Reason of Ignorance or Not Guilty by Reason of Megalomania are good defenses here.
You can think that, but there is arguable evidence that he in fact did understand that he had lost. We will see if and when this gets to trial.
Trump and his lawyers worked extremely hard - over many months - to prove the GA election was stolen and lost at every turn including to Republican state officials.
What rabbit-out-of-the-hat could they possible find now?!?
If they were trying to prove the GA election was stolen, doesn't that suggest they believed the GA election was stolen?
Ok....so where are you going with this?
Trump thought the election was stolen, did a bunch of legal challenges - and lost.
But now the allegations are he and his team also engaged in illegal activity as well.
What does his beliefs have to do with anything at this point?
The foundational premise to both the Smith and the Fulton County indictments is the idea that Trump knew he lost legitimately and fairly and thus all his actions were fraudulently done knowing he was trying to overturn a fair and square election.
Since you believe Trump believed he unfairly lost the election, where does that put you on the validity of these indictments?
How does it suggest that? It suggests that they wanted to be declared to have won the Presidential election in Georgia. That's it. Maybe they believed the election was stolen, or maybe they didn't. Either way, they would've pursued the same strategy.
An innocent person can claim innocence without lying. In the case of Trump, lying is obviously a component of claiming he’s innocent, so yeah, he’s going to do that.
Will that sure pulls the rug out from Smiths indictment, now doesn't it?
I am pretty sure you mean STOLLEN.
But perhaps his plan is simply to try to convince people that he actually believes it. If he can convince one juror that he did (even if wrongly), he probably hangs the jury.
"If Trump is convicted, and the trial is and seems fair . . ." In what neighborhood of Bunnyland does Somin live? Of course he'll be convicted by a D.C. jury, 97% of whom voted for someone other than DJT, and of course the elite class will call the procedure fair.
But no one knows what happens then --- no one. That's the real trouble here. You're playing with dynamite, you idiot, and you're going to get us all blown to bits.
Well, luckily for you, Trump is being tried in DC. And Florida. And Georgia. And New York.
So of course we will find out if the process if fair, given that there will be multiple looks at the process in different areas!
All that said, I am wondering if you have the same special solicitude for all criminal defendants and the jury pool, or if this is a special Trump exception?
😀
Look Trump brought ALL of this on himself. 100%. More over, the present consequences were all predictable. He has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he is too stupid and irrational to be President
Apparently Meadows was indicted and charged with a felony over a single text message asking for a phone number.
Does the principle of Improper Animus come into play in any of these cases?
The wonders of "predicate acts"; Once they claim there's a conspiracy, perfectly innocent actions can be used against you. Claim you were conspiring to rob a bank? Gassing up your car becomes a predicate act, because you can't use it as a getaway car if the tank is empty, after all!
Georgia Law on Conspiracy
O.C.G.A. §16-4-8 defines conspiracy as when a person commits the offense of conspiracy to commit a crime when he together with one or more persons conspires to commit any crime, and any one or more of such persons does any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy.
IANAL but I'm guessing that means if they get gas two weeks before the intended act then, no, that wouldn't be conspiracy because that would not ". . . effect the object of the conspiracy."
Getting gas the night before (or morning of), maybe.
Sure. Point remains that, once they get the jury to accept there was a conspiracy, proving you 'did something to advance the conspiracy' is a given.
All the predicate acts here are just piling on, it's all on establishing the conspiracy to do something illegal in the first place.
"Apparently Meadows was indicted and charged with a felony over a single text message asking for a phone number."
Not true. Mark Meadows is charged in Count 1 with violation of the Georgia RICO Act and in Count 28 with solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer.
The GA indictment claims it's a felonious act of Trump to tweet about a public hearing of voter fraud on the RSBN network.
How the fuck are none of you Serious Democrats even remotely skeptical of any of this nonsense? Do you have zero self-awareness or have you been so manipulated that your hatred and rage is blinding you?
From the early leak of the indictment to the leaving of the jurors names on the release, to the many many many animus statements by these prosecutors, none of you are even remotely skeptical.
That's the power of the mind masters have over you. They have pumped years and years of fear and anger into you and your brains have rotted from 7+ years of constant existential stress.
Not a single one of you is ever worthy of any respect. Like Somin, you're deranged lunatics. Many of you are well credentialed but deranged nonetheless.
"The GA indictment claims it’s a felonious act of Trump to tweet about a public hearing of voter fraud on the RSBN network."
Which count of the indictment alleges that as a standalone felony, BCD?
(felonious) Act 22
Tweeting “Georgia hearings now on @OANN Amazing”
(felonoius) Act 100
Tweeting "Hearings from Atlanta on the Georgia Election overturn now being broadcast. Check it out..."
(felonious) Act 38
@RudyGuilianni retweeting "Georgia Patriot Call to Action: today is the day we need you to call your state Senate and House Reps & ask them to sign the petition for a special session. We must have free & fair elections in GA & a (sic) this is our only path to ensuring every legal vote is counted. @realDonaldTrump"
Why is the token libertarian the only Volokh Conspirator willing to discuss Trump? Why are the other Volokh Conspirators so conspicuously silent in this context?
Other than the cowardice, low character, right-wing tribalism, and fear of offending the deplorable Trump fans who constitute their target audience, I mean.
Would you like me to resurrect my Mean Girl Diary series I was doing for you?
I stopped when I discovered your closeted status, because I felt that was just too mean and cruel of me.
It was as if I had gone to a Retard Zoo and starting chunking rocks at all the drooling little helmet wearers. It’s fun at first, but then you start feeling a little bad.
But, if you’d like, I can get over it.
You are the defender and fan the Volokh Conspirators -- a bunch of disaffected, cowardly, bigot-hugging law professors operating at the disrespected, obsolete right-wing fringe of modern American legal academia -- desire and deserve.
Dear Diary,
OMG! You won’t believe what went down in the lunchroom today! Like, it was totally out of a movie scene. So there I was, minding my own business, flipping through my fashion mag while sipping on my strawberry smoothie when THAT group started talking about the Volokh Conspirators. UGH!
Like, seriously? Everyone knows they’re just a bunch of out-of-touch, totally uncool law professors. They’re SO last decade. Why can’t they get with the times? I was so done with their nonsense. So, you know me, Diary, I can’t keep my mouth shut when it comes to things like this. I may have… slightly raised my voice and said, “You are literally defending and fanning over the Volokh Conspirators? Seriously? They’re just like a bunch of loser law professors stuck in the past. Like, who even cares about them anymore? So not fetch.”
I could feel like a hundred eyes on me, Diary, but whatever. Someone had to tell them, right? Then I flounced off with my smoothie because drama is exhausting.
Till tomorrow, Diary.
XOXO,
Artie The Lonesome
“I’m also skeptical the prosecution will somehow catapult Trump to victory in the 2024 election.”
I agree with this point. These prosecutions are designed specifically to make sure he loses the 2024 election, and they will most likely succeed in doing just that. It's not about holding anyone accountable, or putting Trump in prison (as much as the fringe blind with hate would enjoy that), or anything else, just more politics. Some might call it stealing or cheating.
Or the consequences for all Trump's criming.
The alleged acts in question are not even crimes.
Of course, Kevin Clinemsith's criming (which was perjuring himself before a FISA court to get a warrant to spy on a political campaign) not only did not result in jail time, it did not even result in disbarment!
They're not crimes if Trump did them!
Clinesmith was held to account. Can Trump do no less?
Once again, the FISA warrant was not for the campaign.
"Why should I go to jail for crimes someone else noticed?"
-Donald Trump, probably.
*(cash only)
“Third, I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works.”
-John Eastman
LOLOLOLOL
If you want Prof. Volokh to ban you, keep laughing.
Or maybe it would be Prof. Bernstein, if Prof. Volokh shares censorship authority.
I mean, talk about the poor man’s Tom Hagen.
Here's the link with respect to Prof. Bernstein and un-American right-wing jerk John Eastman.
The Volokh Conspirators are free to explain, retract, amplify, modify, or reconfirm their public adoration of John Eastman any time they wish to.
I had forgotten how well this had aged!
“Looks like Chapman Law School dean John Eastman is running for the Republican nomination for California attorney general. It’s hard to believe that California voters would elect someone so competent and qualified, but good luck, John!”
-DB
I also love how David couldn’t stop at just saying something nice about Eastman, he had to throw in the dig about California. Classic! Never change.
Prof. Bernstein seems to have lost his voice with respect to John Eastman, perhaps because Eastman has been revealed to be an un-American, indicted, disgusting crackpot.
Prof. Volokh, too. And Prof. Bainbridge.
Every conservative at the Volokh Conspiracy is conspicuously avoiding the Trump-Clark-Eastman issues these days. Cowardice and partisan hackery are the obvious reasons. If there is a different explanation, let's hear it.
A different explanation that anyone would accept. Other than Brett Bellmore.
I appreciate the analysis and consistency.
Government officials have been prosecuted in this country for centuries, including governors and even a vice president or two (Burr was indicted at least; Agnew's story is well discussed in Rachel Maddow's book). It also is done in many Western democracies.
I'm unclear why we are so special in this regard. If we can survive Trump being elected, we should be able to survive his prosecution for his crimes. He is being tried in both liberal and conservative areas. He has a better option there in a fashion than many people who are prosecuted.
There is an amusing game of keep-away here. Separation of powers means impeachment is the only grounds to fully go after Trump. But, impeachment then is said to be an inappropriate remedy. Civil and criminal process is left open, even by Mitch McConnell. And, then that too is problematic.
See also the 14A remedy, even when multiple originalists argue it is a sound approach.
Jack Goldsmith, unlike some, claims it is not like he is supportive of Trump. But, the bottom line enabling gets you largely to the same location in some fashion.
I noticed that Trump is only being tried in the most "liberal" places in the United States.
New York. Washington D.C. And then Fulton County, "Fulton County is one of the most reliably Democratic counties in the entire nation. It has voted Democratic in every presidential election since 1876 except those of 1928 and in 1972.."
Probably just a coincidence.
The feds filed the documents case in the Southern District of Florida, which is certainly not among the most liberal places in the U.S. Even though legally the feds could've filed in D.C.
You're right. I forgot about that one. So many things to not keep track of.
Don't worry. Better Americans will keep track of the charges and prosecutions.
You're posting about matters you're intentionally not keeping track of?
If I'm not mistaken the S.D.Fl. is in Miami, which isn't exactly a "conservative area." Even if it was, that'd be one conservative area not multiple conservative "areas."
…
FOR THOSE KEEPING SCORE:
3/17 – Hunter admits laptop
3/18 – Trump indictment news
6/8 – FBI doc alleges Biden bribe
6/9 – INDICTMENT
7/26 – Hunter plea deal collapses
7/27 – INDICTMENT
7/31 – Devon Archer testifies
8/1 – INDICTMENT
[NEW]
8/9 – MORE damning Biden bank records released
8/11 – DOJ (illegally) designates special counsel
8/14 – FBI Whistleblower transcript released
8/14 – Trump indicted
https://twitter.com/nataliegwinters/status/1691275018871709696
Great point!
Again: Devon Archer blew up the entire GOP conspiracy theory with his testimony.
My longtime Usenet ally, Christopher Charles Morton, wrote this.
https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=379970&p=4515565#post4515565
- Chris, dba Deanimator
Chris's reasoning applies with equal force here. For what was the whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign but a racket to undermine the lawfully elected President? That racket included perjury committed by Kevin Clinemith, a lawyer for the FBI. Not only was Clinesmith spared prison, he was not even disbarred.
When will Peter Strzok be prosecuted?
When will the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) be prosecuted?
When will Obama be prosecuted?
When will FJB be prosecuted?
Chris was right!
Do you want to watch something super awkward?
Hillary gets interviewed today by some cow who thinks shes a bull.
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1691267611395330048
“A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey.”
-DJT, 8/15/23
Gee, I can’t wait! Irrefutable proof coming any day now!
“Almost complete” LOLOLOL, they’ve just been working on it really really slowly
I hope Mike Lindell, Patrick Byrne, Michael Flynn, Kari Lake, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Roger Stone, and the entire roster of Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force participate in the presentation.
Maybe a few of the Volokh Conspirators, too.
It's unfortunate Diamond and Silk will not be able to assist.
Will they be able to book a garden centre by then?
It'll be in two weeks, right after infrastructure week.
My longtime Usenet ally Christopher Charles Morton! The Lord Humungus! The Warrior of the Wasteland! The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla!
He greatly influenced my own political views for twenty-five years!
Be still my dog of war. I understand your pain. We've all lost someone we love. But we do it my way! We do it my way. Fear is our ally. The gasoline will be ours. Then you shall have your revenge.
Christopher Charles Morton sounds like an asshole.
A replaced asshole, which is the best kind of wingnut.
Most people would have the common sense to be embarrassed by that.
If you're so concerned about an ex-prez being indicted, perhaps y'all shouldn't have voted for an habitual criminal. If you didn't know he was suspected of criminal activity long before 2016 that's on you. it was widely reported.
I did not vote for FJB.
Did you?
Probably voted for Dark Brandon.
I just thought I’d post this brief explainer in a vain attempt to head off some of the more … ill-informed comments … people are making.
Conspiracy is an inchoate offense. Inchoate offenses (such as attempt, conspiracy, and solicitation) are crimes that are committed when you take a step toward the commission of another crime (the target offense). This is often referred to as an “overt act.” The reason that there is a requirement for some type of overt act is that you cannot be convicted of an inchoate crime by just “thinking” about it or even just talking about it- you have to do something to actually move the attempt forward (a substantial step).
The overt acts are usually completely legal- because (altogether now) they are not illegal – it’s the target offense that is unlawful. Instead, the overt acts are used to show the substantial step in the inchoate offense; in other words, that the alleged criminal wasn’t just “shooting off their mouth,” but actually took an affirmative action in furtherance of the inchoate offense.
So, for example, if someone was planning on attacking someone else. If the person bought a gun, and engaged in target practice, these would be completely legal acts that also happen to be the substantial step for attempted first degree assault. (Yeah, there's a well-known case that has that exact fact pattern).
What is the target offense?
In your opinion, would a propaganda campaign to frame Trump for colluding with the Russians®™ to stewal the 2016 election constitute a target offense?
Doesn’t “frame” imply a crime? What crime would “collusion” be?
The target offenses are counts 2 through 41.
Framing Trump wouldn't be the target offense. That could the overt act where the target offense is lying to state officials responsible for certifying the outcome.
Were those lies under oath?
Count 41 is for sure. I don’t know about the others, but they are illegal even if not under oath under O.C.G.A. § 16-10-20
Tangentially, the head of the FBI New York office in 2016 that kept leaking about Comey's investigation in order to damage Clinton just turned out to be a Russian asset.
That's a weird way to describe the guy who almost single handedly kicked off the Trump 'Russian collusion' investigation.
‘Trumplandia’ they called that office.
This is a fabrication. Here's what he did: Alexander Downer reported to the FBI that George Papadopoulos had been drunkenly bragging about Russia helping against Clinton. The info made it to McGonigal, who passed it on. That's all his role was.
What do you think of overt act #1: “DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election.” Seems that might be shooting off his mouth?
That was protected speech.
Were there coded messages to further a plan to forge ballots?
Shooting his mouth off: "Wouldn't it be great if we conned the bank into giving us a loan?"
Overt act: "Hi, Loan Officer Charlie, I own a trillion dollar house and I'd like a second mortgage please."
Help me out here. How is it that a county DA is prosecuting this rather than the AG?
Donald Trump and his codefendants are accused of violating Georgia state law. The District Attorney prosecutes on behalf of the state.
The acts occurred in Fulton County.
If the Fulton County DA is charging Ray Stallings Smith with giving False Statements and Writings to the Georgia Senate and one of those alleged false statements was (from Count 4)
"That 1,043 people voted in the November 3, 2020 presidential election in Georgia who had illegally registered to vote using a post office box;"
Doesn't Ray Stallings Smith have discovery rights to Georgia elections records to support his statement?
If these records are incomplete, or missing, or tampered with, or lacks chain of custody, how does the DA prove that statement was false?
Also 6.) The Fulton County election workers at State Farm Arena ordered poll watchers and members of the media to leave the tabulation area on the night of November 3, 2020, and continued to operate after ordering everyone to leave.
...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-investigating-vote-counting-delayed-by-flooding-in-democratic-county-gop-poll-watchers-told-counting
Were these false statements under oath?
The defense will almost certainly find ways to relitigate 2020 election fraud.
In fact, I almost think the DA has intentionally laid and baited that trap.
The onus is on the DA to prove guilt to some standard, right?
Do you think the DA making broad assertions about election security is sufficient? Or that she might need more than that?
The DA only needs to prove state-of-mind.
That tweet about them wanting legal ballots counted is surely going to help them do that.
Lol
The indictment describes the statements as “false,” but Smith is charged under O.C.G.A. 16-10-20, which covers “false, fictitious, or fraudulent” statements. I haven't looked the case law, but my guess is that if Smith's lawyer argues, “we have no reason to believe that any of Smith’s statements were true, but since the indictment claims they are false we are entitled to delay the case with months of discovery inquiring into whether, by some amazing coincidence, some of his statements are actually true,” the court will deny discovery. Courts generally don't like to authorize fishing expeditions, and the fact that the statute covers “fictitious” as well as false statements gives the Court a basis to refuse to authorize one here.
Yes, I remember that incident. The reporters present confirmed that they were all told to go home, there are multiple sworn affidavits to that effect, and it checks with the surveillance video showing people streaming out at the time.
No, The Georgia Vote-Counting Video Was Not ‘Debunked.’ Not Even Close
I really don’t see how they can claim in a courtroom that latter statement is false, and, yeah, they should actually have to prove the falsity of the first statement, too.
FFS. That video has been inspected over and over again. Raffensperger told Trump the video showed no wrongdoing. Trump better pick out clothes that match his hair color if that's his defense.
Yeah dude it's totally normal for a handful of election workers to run the same batches over and over after all the watchers were sent home.
Do you have stock in a prison clothing line?
I know right? I'm committing a felony in Atlanta by describing what I a saw in a video that's all over the internet.
Once again, not only didn't that happen, but it couldn't happen. If you run the same batch through multiple times, then you end up with more votes than ballots. And we know that didn't happen not only from the initial tallies but because there was a full audit of the vote afterwards. (The only things that get run through a second time are ones that didn't register the first time.)
You've really got to love a conspiracy theory that involves the entire GOP state apparatus, all of whom supported Trump, to be in on a conspiracy to get Trump.
You know, engaging just for intellectual purposes... (I think most of the cheating was the illegal changes to election procedures...)
You don't end up with more votes than ballots if you toss an equal number of unprocessed ballots in a landfill somewhere.
There's all sorts of dirty deeds the people running elections can get up to, if nobody is watching, which is why they're not supposed to send the observers home and then resume counting.
This requires a lot of people to keep a very big secret.
Pfft, not that many people, most of the election workers were sent home, remember?
Anyway, as I said, I'm just engaging in this as an intellectual exercise, I think what really cost Trump the election was the illegal changes to election procedures in swing states. He likely would have won if the election had been carried out according to the laws the legislatures had actually enacted.
But it's still incredibly toxic to excuse these sorts of efforts to defeat election observation. And it was going on all over the place. If it wasn't "Election observers aren't required to be permitted in satellite polling places!", it was putting them far enough from the counting that they couldn't see what was going on.
Elections demand a very high degree of transparency, and anything people do to defeat that transparency is automatically going to lead a lot of people to suspect wrongdoing.
And rightfully so. Once you refuse to permit the books to be audited, any sane person WILL suspect you're cooking them.
Like once all your claims about voter fraud turn out to be false, any sane person would conclude that you are a person who makes false claims about voter fraud.
They didn't send any observers home.
Garbage. We have multiple accounts from people there saying they did. They deny they did, but why should we automatically credit them saying they're innocent?
Except they weren't. Only the workers were sent home.
Oh god Brett, that article is self-refuting!
Yeah. Those two things aren’t contradictory. Obviously, some ballot counters got sent home, but not all, and the observers just decided to leave too.
False! Looks pretty debunked to me.
Hear that guys? The observers just decided to go home all on their own while election workers were still counting.
And when Rudy said they were sent home he committed a felony! The only legal answer was they went home voluntarily! And all the contemporary affidavits stating otherwise are also felonious lies trying to overthrow the election!
lol
You mean like this affidavit?
Sounds to me like the affidavit "debunks" your theory, Chucky, and supports the election workers' version of events.
Actually, that looks more like confirming the story: That she told them the counting was over, go home, then after they left, resumed the counting.
Brett will boldly go where even Rudy will not
If by "them" you mean the subset of election workers who were done for the day, sure. That is what it says.
If by "them" you mean the Republican election monitors, then you can't read.
What does the rest of the affidavit say about the illegal ballot counting that was going on?
I basically agree with Professor Somin’s on this one. But I would put the matter even more strongly.
The basic argument for strongman rule is that demographic governments are simply too weak and vacillating to protect the public. They hem and haw and debate in the face of danger. They worry too much. Only a self-confident strongman type can have the guts and the ego to cut through the shit and get what needs to be done done.
Professor Goldman’s position basically supports this argument. Professor Goldman explains why a republican form of government can’t be trusted to act vigorously even to save its own skin. All kinds of consequences could happen. Better to do nothing and hope things will just go away. And if they don’t, at least we can’t be blamed.
If Professor Goldman is right, then frankly, so is the strongman argument. If republican forms of government deserve to survive, if they are to be capable of surviving whether deserving or not, then when the shit hits the fan, they have stop vacillating, stop making excuses for vacillating, and act vigorously and swiftly to defend themselves.
Because at least some of the fraud charges are arguable. I think they're likely wrong, but I don't think that it's unreasonable to think that Trump crossed the line from pursuing legal theories that were unlikely to prevail, into actual fraud.
The "force" charge, though? Why the hell does he keep saying "force and fraud" when there's an utter absence of evidence for the "force" part of that? Why does he keep insisting on adding it?
I see something pathological at work here. Trump broke a lot of people. Ilya is one of them.
I'll defend it, because putting quotes around a word doesn't make it into a demand to commit fraud. I know when you type "find" you're imagining Trump doing air quotes as he says the word... over a phone yet. He's probably winking a lot, too, in your imagination.
How many votes did black run districts in cities manage to "find" in PA, GA, and OH? All while covering the windows and sending in trucks in the middle of the night
Queen, he was saying that there were a LOT MORE stolen votes, but that merely finding enough for him to win would be OK.
Which means two other things -- first, this is finally his chance to actually litigate the issue of fraud in Georgia, and if he proves that he actually won Georgia, what will that do to the legitimacy of Joe Biteme?
You are children playing with fire.
'Trump broke a lot of people'
So close to a breakthrough, and yet so far.
Strawman argument Brett.
Fallacies and arguments that no human would believe is all you got now.
State "and" District.
Had HRC been criminally prosecuted, would you have been okay with her trial being conducted in a county where Trump won 95% of the vote? Or would you have complained that the jury was biased and that the trial would thus be inherently unfair?
On what basis? Isn't it on him to explain that, when nobody has charged him with doing that?
You think there's even the slightest chance Trump wouldn't have been charged with that, if they had a scrap of evidence?
So why are charges being brought by a county DA rather than the state AG?
Florida in 2000 was lousy with people from both sides looking for more votes in ways that benefitted primarily their side. I don’t see the leap to a request for fraudulent votes, rather just dust off some of that.
Some of which may be smarmy or unfair or potentially illegal in the sense a court may throw it out later, as happened there, of course, as all happened.
Trump didn't ask Raffensperger to find diddly squat. I suggest you review that call and find out what he actually said, instead of relying on paraphrases that only quote one word. He asked for access to find it himself.
The difference would be that if a recording of such a meeting/phone call was released, the focus would be on "who released this recording" and on "how wrong it was for this recording to be released."
Queen almathea : ” … if a Democrat President called a blue state SoS and asked them to find just enough votes for them to win the state… ”
Don’t forget Trump also called Georgia’s Governor, Attorney General, and the lead investigator in the Secretary of State’s office. Let’s set aside the shear impropriety of directly approaching an investigator inside Raffensperger office and look at the big picture:
These men will all testify and who believes Trump’s huckster pitch was any more subtle with them than with Raffensperger? Remember, this is the same Trump who asked acting-AG Rosen to send out a letter asking states to delay certification due to evidence of fraud found in an ongoing DOJ investigation.
Of course Rosen had just told Trump there was no evidence of fraud and no ongoing investigation. It didn’t matter. Trump still asked for the letter to go out, telling Rosen this (in front of a roomful of witnesses):
“Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen,”
Just like he told this to Raffensperger :
“And there’s nothing wrong with saying that, you know, um, that you’ve recalculated.”
Without something more, it would be a "petition to to the Government for the redress of grievances", as well as another example of law and ethics not coinciding.
I'm sorry you think lack of evidence of wrongdoing in something that happened more than twenty years ago is somehow relevant to evidence of wrongdoing in something that happened more recently. As a defense tactic, I'm not sure it'll get very far.
Sheesh. For constitutional purposes, the federal government governs as though it were a state, in DC. That's a long standing principle. DC not being a state isn't an issue here. A Republican not being able to get an impartial jury in a pseudo state that's about as Democratic as the DNC is, though.
Brett, he told them the precise number of votes he wanted them to find. He literally used the word “find”. And he vaguely suggested a crime would have been committed if they didn’t “find” them, although in typical Trump fashion he didn’t clearly describe who would have committed it.
Yeah, the other three situations involve at least some ambiguity as to what the crimes actually are or if people are actually punished for them. This one is the real deal. He’s on tape “asking” Georgia officials to commit voter fraud.
I’m not sure what I think about indicting his entire posse, but they’ve got Trump dead to rights committing an easily understandable crime.
Trump supporters think ALL politicians are crooks.
If only that were true, it wouldn't be half as bad. They don't have goals either. They have mental urges. All they care about is pwning the libs. They don't care about substance; they don't care about policy; they don't care about consistency.
If Republicans didn't handicap elections at every twist and turn then maybe the VERY POPULOUS cities could count quicker and easier huh?
Blame your own dumbasses for such a thing.
By the way- where is the EVIDENCE big brain? All these "anecdotes" and not a single shred of evidence has ever been found.
Wake up cult member.
He told them the precise number of votes HE needed to find. Yes, he literally used the word "find", which is the reason it's the only word inside quotation marks when he's paraphrased.
"Find" and "manufacture"; They're not synonyms. He's on tape asking Georgia officials for access to voting records so that he could look for proof of his theories. That's literally what the words he used mean, even if it's not what you read into them.
People say what they say, they don't say what you imagine they really meant.
There's no evidence because the evidence was all destroyed.
Were you having gay sex while you were supposed to be in class learning about spoliation?
When I was visiting Vasquez Rocks outside of LA, I saw a ballot collection box outside the parking lot. Wow...such security.
No. Which is my point. If he meant illegal votes, prove it. Leaning in and intimating so to change the context to illegal votes is pure bias at this point.
In 2000, both sides had the marching orders of "find me votes". There was all manner of danger and potential trickery and dishonest efforts, but no attempt at raw fraud of faked votes.
There’s a difference between a lawsuit and privately calling up the SOS and asking them to “find” just enough votes so that you win, no?
Privately? There were at least 6 people on the call. Privately? No wonder you think some nefarious shit's going down, despite the actual fucking transcript being available.
Sure. Let’s focus on the people that were protecting themselves rather than the guy they needed protecting from. Does the release of the tape make Trump any more or less guilty?
“He told them the precise number of votes HE needed to find. ”
Why do you think Trump is telling Raffensberger what Trump’s needs are? Because he expects Raffensberger to meet those needs.
““Find” and “manufacture”; They’re not synonyms.”
They certainly can be, Brett. Implied meaning. Criminals can be convicted for talking in code.
The whole reason for talking in code is to give *some* plausible deniability. Just because Trump chose to talk in code, doesn't mean you have to buy it.
You are doing the same damn thing with this as those on the left do with the “requests” from the feds to the social media companies to suppress speech.
And you’re doing the opposite on this as you do with those requests. Wonder why….
This guy has destroyed your party. Fucked it up completely. I can’t for the life of me understand how you defend him. Another brain lost to politics I guess.
He also threatened them if they didn't 'find' those votes.
You can read the mind of everyone in the world when it suits you, but when the evidence is literally thrown in front of your face, you 'act' dumber and dumber.
Biden got 92% of the vote, and Trump got about 5%; One in TWENTY didn't vote for him, not one in ten.
I calculate approximately a 50% chance that a random jury in DC would have nobody on it who voted for Trump. But the jury Trump will face won't be a random jury, it will be a post voir dire jury, and the odds are extremely high that there will be so few Republicans in the jury pool that the prosecutor can eliminate every single one with his preemptory challenges.
Trump only received 5.4% of the vote.
Yeah, that's what happens when yo have a district that is half worthless white liberal government employees or consultants and half low IQ ghetto blacks.
Reminds me of the pastor who was actively involved in partisan politics. One day, one of his deacons said to him, "Pastor, you're so partisan I bet you'd vote for Satan himself if he ran as a member of your party." To which the pastor responded, "Well, not in the primary I wouldn't."
The same system that "randomly" assigns political cases to the most corrupt judges also manages the jury pool.
It's systematically and deeply corrupt.
Will questions about past voting / party affiliations be permitted in voir dire? I'm genuinely not sure.
Regardless, though, among non-voters, independents, and yes, even some Democrats, there are bound to be reasonable jurors.
Voltage!
Queen,
The grand jury that was seated by Willis was a "special purpose grand jury". It cannot issue indictments.
Did you know that?
One of Trump's felonious acts was calling Pence a wimp.
Act 140.
If he actually did that, sure, go down in flames. But bald intimation is different
Isn't this why we're having a trial?
Act 6
Mark Meadows sent a text message asking for the phone number for the speaker of the PA legislature.
During the Clinton administration, all the Clinton related cases in DC got diverted to judges Clinton had nominated. I don't know that the assignment system in DC has been reformed since.
Not even. That’s one of the sad things.
Georgia doing to Fulton County what Massachusetts did to Suffolk County (Boston) a century ago is not "sick" -- it's actually democratic.
The argument I would make here is that these charges should be brought in the name of the whole people of Georgia, not just those of Fulton County, and hence the AG ought to be bringing them. Fulton county voters should not have a disproportionate influence on the state, and hence the STATE gets to pick Fulton County officials.
Robert Bowers, a wingnut who is at least as bad as Donald Trump, was tried a few miles from the location at which he murdered 11 and wounded 6 innocents.
Trying Donald Trump in D.C., or Atlanta, or New York, or near Mar-a-Lago -- where the alleged crimes were committed -- would be justice in the normal course.
Which is what Trump fans fear.
I'm unsure of this rule myself.
So, if a Democrat commits a crime in some very strongly conservative part of the country, which includes mostly whole states in some cases, how do we try their cases?
Or, perhaps a horrible murderer, who both Democrats and Republicans will be likely to find very horrible.
"Trump law" however requires him to get a special dispensation, since after all, he is seen as a sort of messiah anyway.
Statistically speaking, what are the odds of this Tanya judge whose been hammering J6 grannies and also expressing clear animus towards Trump getting randomly selected for this case?
Zero. The courthouse clerks responsible for judge selection are not doing random assignments in cases that matter. The clerks responsible for winnowing down the jury pool are also not doing these things ethically.
The only people who believe Trump's situation in DC is fair and just are the hyper-partisan morons on this blog and their peer tribe. Look at Somin's or not guilty's statements.
You history with facts as to the Clinton administration…do you have facts for this judge diversion allegation?
Really, that should have been four acts, one for each letter.
"We must have free & fair elections in GA"
Only a Felonious RICO Mobster would demand that!
10 years in prison!
“Watch the hearings on OANN”!
CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY! STRAIGHT TO PRISON!
Rephrasing that, "So, if a prosecutor wanted to charge you with conspiracy to rob a store", texting you about buying some duct tape would become such.
And never mind if you had a leaky duct.
How so?
Were there secret coded messages in these petitions?
Believing you have a leaky duct is now a felony. In GA, NY, DC, and FL.
Using the duct tape I used to tie up the store owner to also fix a leak is a mitigating factor yeronner!
You know what's funny as shit about my IQ post?
None of you midwits even caught the obvious insinuation of IQ's being lower in blacks.
lol, given how they keep re-norming IQ's, if you extrapolated my quotient from when it was originally assessed to now, I would be overqualified for MENSA.
In the context of believing the election was stolen.
Simple: In the context of a conspiracy charge, virtually any innocent act can be construed to be proof of the conspiracy. It's virtually impossible to NOT have committed a predicate act once they pull out conspiracy law. And knowing already what potential predicate acts they can prove, they can adjust the 'conspiracy' they're claiming you were part of to match what they can prove you did.
Anyway, remember the first rule of RICO? It's never RICO!
How do all of these acts look if Trump believes the GA election was fraudulently stolen from him?
Assume that for one minute.
It's not hard to be overqualified for MENSA, 2% of the population qualify for membership. For real nerd cred you need a Triple Nine membership.
These unhinged right-wing bigots are the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience . . . and one of the reasons strong, mainstream law schools will stop engaging in affirmative action for right-wing law professors.
Which certainly gives the lie to your claims that 'they' can prosecute him for anything and everything they could possibly want to prosecte him for regardless of evidence, or with manufactured evidence.
Well, yes. Didn't you know that if you change the facts, then the facts change?
For example-
"Let me explain this to you. If you try to shoot someone with a gun, it can be attempted murder."
"Wait, so what you're saying is that if I tried to shoot a beer can off my porch, it's attempted murder? GAME, SET, MATCH SHERLOCK! Did you know that I'm in Mensa?"
Tanya is a disgusting ape.
BCD, what is your factual basis for claiming that the D.C. case against Donald Trump was not randomly assigned? Please be specific.
It really doesn't matter. Illegally manipulating the vote count isn't a legal method to correct for fraud even if he believed there was fraud which he clearly didn't.
Sure, but you have to establish an effort to illegally manipulate the vote count.
For instance, his effort to get access to the Georgia voting records to look for illegal votes wouldn't be "an effort to illegally manipulate the vote count" if he actually THOUGHT here were illegal votes to be found.
Both the Smith and Fulton County indictments are based on the premise that Trump believed he lost fairly and squarely and was acting fraudulently to overturn the election.
That’s a requirement for most of their indictments. And now look, you guys are trying to act like it doesn't even matter.
When that's the foundational premise to both these cases.
You clearly don't know shit about how judges are assigned cases.
loki13, are you claiming it’s a fact that Trump believed he lost the election legitimately and not fraudulently?
I didn’t say shit about Mensa until Krycheck brought it up, I only said 4 standard deviations out.
Krycheck the Confused started all that mess.
You were too stupid even to realize it.
Face it.
No, it wouldn’t. Wanting the government to “find” enough votes (more than 10,000!) after they’ve been counted three times already is not asking that a grievance be redressed, it’s arm twisting to change the results of an election.
Y’all need to let this narcissist go and get on to something better. He’s ruining you.
That's illegal for other reasons, namely being explicitly illegal, "written invitation" notwithstanding.
It's just illegal.
No, Brett, you can't rob a bank just because you "actually THOUGHT" the money you took was yours.
Trump looks pretty obviously guilty.
But Queen’s “if a Democrat did this” crap is no better than the “if a republican did this” crap that y’all are always shifting on. Consistency is your friend.
Obviously he did know he lost and that makes for an easier case, so sure, that's what they're going with.
But also, when the defense says "he really really thought he won," the prosecutor can say "So? Still illegal to do it that way."
What? Trump was on a private call with the SOS, who are these "fellas" he's talking to? If you can't even get that right, why would anyone listen to any other characterizations you make about the call?
He clearly references, many times, that he (and his lawyers on the "private" call) believes there are many 10's to 100's of thousands of "bad votes" (scare quotes mine, not Trump quote...), and all the SOS needs to do is open his eyes and look at them to "find" at least 11,000 of those bad votes. No votes need to be manufactured. No "just make-up 11,000 more" or any other weird shit. Just, hey, there are lots of illegal votes and they're so obvious (Trump alleges) that it should be easy to find (bad votes).
There is no "there" there. Simple reading comprehension.
Worrying, but not inherently unfair.
There's a reason verdicts need to be unanimous, even in a district where Trump (or the other candidate) won 95% of the vote you're not going to get 12 diehard partisans who will vote to convict no matter what.
There's also a reason why Trump (and his supporters) want to move the trial to Florida so badly. They know that there are a lot of Trump supporters who would acquit him no matter what, and some would even try to mislead lawyers as to that fact in order to get on the jury.
The left in America used to understand the pressure created by the presence of a large power disparity, but no more. That the FBI could break Twitter/Facebook in two creates a threat in and of itself. When Biden’s Covid guru calls multiple times to express “outrage” that’s intended to intimidate the recipient of the call.
And I went back and reread that part of the phone call. He did not clearly threaten them. He said that if the 11,780 votes the he knew were there (lol) remained uncounted “that could be a crime”. But he was unclear who would have committed the crime. Trump is the GOAT at saying something that he really means with nobody understanding what he said, exactly.
Brett has no principles. You have no principles. American politics at its finest.
It's not illegal to tweet out to get people to watch a public hearing on voter fraud.
But the Fulton County DA is saying that's proof of the conspiracy.
The indictments don't fit your analysis at all.
Arm twisting is protected.
It takes something like bribery ("here's a coupon for $1.00 off a regular soft drink at McDonald's") or extortion ("I'll publishing your texts soliciting sex from an underage girl) to take a request for government action to go outside the bounds of a "petition to the Government for the redress of grievances"
As a matter of fact, I brought this up in a Open Thread, asking if a convicted murderer applying for a concealed carry permit was protected by the First Amendment!
I note there was no allegation of bribery or extortion or perjury.
You've clearly never heard of RICO.
Arm twisting to do an illegal thing is not protected.
I haven’t gotten a chance yet, but you should read the indictment and see what crimes they are charging.
Not in furtherance of a criminal act it’s not.
And he mentioned a crime having committed by someone. Coming from someone giving orders to the FBI, that’s a threat. Which also is not covered by 1A.
First Amendment defenses might work for the DC indictments. At least it’s plausible. That’s a Show Trial, though so probably not.
But Trump done shit the bed on this one. Of his four problems this is the one that looks the strongest. By a lot.
Do you have a strict, rigorous definition of arm twisting?
Because if it is just a synonym for extortion, I already stated in my comment above that extortion would not be (and never was) protected.
which does raise the question of why you did not simply use the more commonly-understood term "extortion".
The right-wing bigotry -- racism, in this case -- always simmers just below the surface at the Volokh Conspiracy. The record indicates this bigotry does not bother the law professors who operate this white, male, conservative blog. To the contrary, at least some of them seem to court the bigots and the bigotry.
I was wondering about the "It's never RICO" angle. I had always thought that one of the difficulties in a RICO prosecution is that the criminal enterprise has to be separate to some degree from the underlying criminal conspiracy. Here they are defining the enterprise as "a group of individuals associated in fact" which, to me, is indistinguishable from any criminal conspiracy.
Maybe the argument is that there were multiple criminal conspiracies, which together constitute a single criminal enterprise.
I don't know enough about RICO to have a strong opinion.
I bet Popehat is conflicted today then.
If you think the FBI or the Covid guy were doing something illegal, as Trump was, then make the case. Fuck the FBI. But I’m not sure you can. Social media and tech companies cave to actual authoritarian regimes all the time, and flog private user data to everyone from corporations to security services. Twitter didn't comply with FBI requests, making the twitter files the least objectionable security service/tech platform interaction ever. If Facebook complied, frankly that's on Facebook.
"And you are going to find that they are — which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you’re not reporting it. That’s a criminal, that’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that’s a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard. And they are removing machinery and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can’t let it happen and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I’m notifying you that you’re letting it happen. So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state."
Emphasis mine. Those words absolutely constitute a threat.
New York, Florida and D.C. register voters by political party, so a venireman's affiliation or lack thereof is a matter of public record. Georgia does not have party registration.
I doubt that a court would permit inquiry as to whom a prospective juror voted for, due to privacy concerns and the secrecy of the ballot.
Because it is generally the job of county DAs, not state AGs to prosecute crimes, and while Trump was trying to steal the Georgia election, he was trying to do it by finding fake votes and/or throwing out legitimate votes in Fulton County.
Right. Venue is proper in Fulton County if an incident of racketeering occurred there or an interest or control of an enterprise or real or personal property was acquired or maintained there. Ga. Code § 16-14-11.
Judge Norma Holloway Johnson and her Role in the Clinton-Gore Campaign Finance Sandal
"Judge Norma Holloway Johnson directed seven prosecutions of Democratic fund-raisers to judges appointed by President Clinton, bypassing the established rules of case assignment (Associated Press, 2000 p. 5A). These seven cases were not the first cases that the Judge specially assigned. The defendants involved in the trials were; Charlie Trie, Maria Hsia, Webster Hubbell, Howard Glicken, Pauline, Kanchanalak, and Mark Jimenez. Since 1994, only two other cases have been assigned outside the established selection process Burton, 2000, p. 1). These cases were transferred to President Clinton's "Magnificent Seven" judges. The Hubble case was assigned to Judge James Robertson. Judge Paul Friedman was appointed to the cases against Charlie Trie, Maria Hsia, and Pauline Kanchanalak. In the case of Maria Hsia, the Judge started by requesting that the Justice Department assign
the case to Judge Friedman, then turned around and used her request to assign the case Rotunda (2000, p.2). Professor Rotunda stated, "Some people launder money; others launder requests. I have never heard before of a judge playing such cat-and-mouse games in an apparent effort to hide her motives" (2000, p 2). Howard Glicken's case was assigned to Judge Henry H. Kennedy Jr. Mark Jimenez's case was placed in Judge Emmet G. Sullivan's Court (Rotunda, 2000, p. 2). These case assignments were going on simultaneously as the Office of Independent
Counsel investigation of President Clinton was going on.
Aftermath
The judges first delayed the hearings for as long as possible without being looked too closely at and then gave punishments that did not suit the crimes committed. Four non-Clinton judges in the D.C. court, appointed by both Democrats and Republicans, were so upset with the actions of the Chief Judge that they anonymously advised the press of what was taking place (Rotunda, 2000, p. 2). "
Granted, too far back for you to have read the news accounts at the time, but it was a rather big scandal, in a time of big scandals.
Here's an AP news report, if you'd prefer:
Judge bypassed system on fund-raising cases
"WASHINGTON -- The chief district judge in Washington directed five prosecutions of Democratic fund-raisers to judges appointed by President Clinton, bypassing the normal system for randomly assigning cases, records show.
Clinton confidant Vernon Jordan interceded in one case, asking the sentencing judge to be lenient with the defendant, prominent Miami businessman Howard Glicken, who has been a fund-raiser for Vice President Gore. Glicken was sentenced to community service work and probation for two misdemeanors.
Rep. Howard Coble, chairman of the House Judiciary subcommittee on courts and intellectual property, yesterday disclosed the assignment of the cases of Glicken and another Miami fund-raiser, Mark Jimenez, now a fugitive in the Justice Department's campaign fund-raising probe.
U.S. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson, who assigned the cases, already was under scrutiny for specially assigning cases against presidential friend Webster Hubbell, as well as fund-raisers Charlie Trie, Maria Hsia and Pauline Kanchanalak. The Associated Press disclosed the assignments of the Trie and Hubbell cases last summer."
The Clinton appointed judges in the DC circuit, who called themselves "The Magnificent Eight", created another scandal when it was discovered that they were regularly holding secret meetings together with no non-Clinton judges permitted to be present.
The Integrity of the Federal Courts
"Perhaps it was happenstance that Judge Johnson secretly assigned the Hubbell case to Judge Robertson, a Clinton appointee. Perhaps Judge Robertson's statements in the transcript do not indicate that he, from the very beginning, had prejudged the matter and decided there would be no trial. But then another eyebrow-raiser occurred: It was discovered that Clinton-appointed judges on the D.C. district court were holding monthly caucuses from which other federal judges were excluded.
Four non-Clinton judges in the D.C. court, appointed by both Democrats and Republicans, were so upset that they anonymously told the press they questioned the propriety of these caucuses. One was quoted as saying: "We all come with political viewpoints but we try to leave politics behind. Unfortunately, the Clinton appointees have gone off on their own.""
Twitter didn't always comply with FBI requests, which is a point in their favor. But they did comply an awful lot of the time.
Seems mostly to have depended on who initially got the request, actually.
I doubt the FBI were the first to notice inconsistencies and lapses with Twitter enforcing its ToS. But if any of those examples of compliance were shown to be in breach of anyone's rights, I have yet to see one.
No new goalposts. You said arm twisting is protected under the 1A. It is not.
As for what the exceptions are, I would direct you to the crimes laid out in the indictment. If you think some of those are unconstitutional, that is where you should make your argument.
Seems bad, but hardly the only Clinton related cases in DC.
He has stated that Stare RICO laws don’t count.
I think what you are getting at when you write that “the criminal enterprise has to be separate to some degree from the underlying criminal conspiracy” is that a criminal enterprise is a criminal conspiracy, but to qualify as a criminal enterprise, the criminal enterprise must actually commit crimes. When looking for these crimes, we cannot include the criminal enterprise itself, even though the criminal enterprise is a criminal conspiracy, which is a crime.
In this case, there appears to be no shortage of crimes attributed to the criminal enterprise. The indictment lists 40 counts in addition to the RICO count, 27 of which are not conspiracy counts. I assume, but haven't verified, that each of those counts describes a crime which is attributed to the criminal enterprise. As a start, count 39 (page 88) is listed as act 113 in furtherance of the criminal enterprise (page 51). Count 5 (page 74) is listed as act 42 (page 30).
Two points about "It's never RICO"
1) That applies to federal RICO, not state laws which can be very different.
2) Even in the federal context, it applies to civil, not criminal, RICO. Popehat's basic point is that people use RICO in a civil suit to say, "I really really mean it," without having any idea how to plead an actual RICO situation. Prosecutors know how it works and how and when to use it.
There is no chance that the lawyers would be allowed to ask who the prospective juror voted for, but there are of course plenty of ways to find out about a prospective juror's political beliefs (aside from looking at what party they might be registered as affiliated with.)
I know that like everything else you say about this, it's false.
I knew you'd find some way to minimize it. Just for yucks, why don't you find a Clinton related case in the DC circuit that wasn't assigned to a judge Clinton nominated? Prior to the scandal surfacing, and Johnson being stripped of her ability to pull it off, I mean. I'll wait...
Anyway, the point here is simply that the DC circuit has an actual history of corruptly non-random judicial assignment in politically fraught cases, so it's not irrational to wonder if Trump didn't draw an extremely hostile judge purely by accident.
It is absolutely irrational to dig up something from 3 decades ago and declare that as enough for you to speculate a conspiracy with no additional facts.
That’s some clinical paranoid shit.
As irrational as it was during Clinton's tenure to be suspicious of every damn case relating to him ending up being heard by a judge he'd appointed, yeah.
Is it proof? Not remotely.
Is it a basis for wondering, and maybe checking? Sure.
No, but if you demand an audit to see where your money went, and threaten that the police will be really interested if you don't get it, that's not you really demanding that the bank embezzle you some money, if you think you've got money in the bank.