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Texas Invokes Invasion Clause In Rio Grande Case
"In view of this constitutional authority, this Court should construe the Rivers and Harbors Act narrowly to avoid the constitutional questions presented by the interaction between the State’s constitutional authority to repel invasions and the Rivers and Harbors Act."
Recently, Texas installed a 1,000-foot-long floating buoy system in the Rio Grande. The United States filed suit against Texas. (For those playing at home, the suit was field in Austin, where the Capitol sits, and not in the Rio Grande valley, where the case arose.) DOJ argues that Texas has violated the Rivers and Harbors Act, which prohibits placing certain structures in navigable waters. Texas has now filed its reply. Texas makes several arguments based on the statute:
The segment of the river where the buoy system has been deployed is not navigable; even if it were, the buoy system does not decrease the navigable capacity of the river; and the buoy system is not a boom or other structure prohibited under the Act.
However, Texas also makes an alternative argument based on constitutional avoidance:
Because Texas has a federal constitutional right to defend itself against invasion from even non-state actors, the Court should construe the Rivers and Harbors Act narrowly to avoid a collision between that constitutional right and the federal statute.
The constitutional provision at play here is somewhat obscure. Article I, § 10, cl. 3 provides, "[n]o state shall, without the Consent of Congress, . . . engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay." The Invasion Clause, on its face, seems to give the states additional authorities when they are "actually invaded." Governor Abbott argues that he, as the Commander in Chief of the state, has the power to determine whether there is an invasion. And Abbott has made such a declaration.
The brief provides some history about the Invasion Clause:
Texas's sovereign power is not limited to repelling invasions by state actors. By its terms, Article I, § 10, Clause 3 applies to all types of invasions, including invasions from non-state or quasi-state actors, like the cartels. Indeed, throughout American history, States have had to use military force to respond to hostile non-state actors. For example, James Madison explained at the Virginia Ratifying Convention how state militia were customarily utilized: "There were a number of smugglers, who were too formidable for the civil power to overcome. The military quelled the sailors, who otherwise would have perpetrated their intentions." 11 James Madison, Debate From Virginia Ratifying Convention (June 16, 1788). And in 1792, Congress exercised its power "[t]o provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions," U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, by authorizing the President to call forth the militia "whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe." An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions, 1 Stat. 264, 2d Cong., Sess. I, Ch. 28 (1792) (emphasis added). Congress reenacted the same provision in 1795. See An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions; and to repeal the Act now in force for those purposes, 1 Stat. 424, 3d Cong., Sess. II, Ch. 36 (1795) ("imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe"). Any notion that "invasion" somehow hinges on the difference between state actors and non-state actors would seem wholly artificial to the Framers: After all, the Constitution gives Congress power to "grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal" authorizing private actors to cross international borders to commit hostile acts. U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 11.
The brief also cites several founding-era dictionaries to define the word "invade" and "invasion."
Texas argues that the court should avoid any reading of the Rivers and Harbors Act that would run afoul of the Invasion Clause.
In view of this constitutional authority, this Court should construe the Rivers and Harbors Act narrowly to avoid the constitutional questions presented by the interaction between the State's constitutional authority to repel invasions and the Rivers and Harbors Act. See United States v. Hansen, 143 S. Ct. 1932, 1946 & n.3 (2023) (applying constitutional avoidance in immigration context). "Under the doctrine of constitutional avoidance, '[w]here an otherwise acceptable construction of a statute would raise serious constitutional problems, the Court will construe the statute to avoid such problems unless such construction is plainly contrary to the intent of Congress.'" Hersh v. U.S. ex rel. Mukasey, 553 F.3d 743, 753–54 (5th Cir. 2008) (quoting Edward J. DeBartolo Corp. v. Fla. Gulf Coast Bldg. & Constr. Trades Council, 485 U.S. 568 (1988)). Here, the State has deployed the buoy system to prevent cartels from trafficking an unprecedented number of aliens, an unknown number of terrorists, and illegal drugs such as fentanyl across the Rio Grande. To prevent a collision between the Rivers and Harbors Act and the State's constitutionally guaranteed right to protect itself, the Court should hold that the terms of the Rivers and Harbors Act do not apply here.
I have not given much thought to the Invasion Clause. Nor have the courts--until now.
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"in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay"
Texas loses because there is time to ask the federal government for help.
Given the combination of federal control over waterways and borders and the existence of a treaty on border control, I think the Biden administration wins. Right or wrong, this is a situation where the president has the right to be wrong.
You can't get much more "imminent" than "happening right now", though. The fact that the federal government approves of the invasion, and so won't help fend it off, doesn't make it NOT an invasion.
The question of whether this is "imminent danger as will not admit of delay" seems like a question for the trial court?
What happens if the State and Feds disagree? Does the President have the final say?
Earlier this week, Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey declared a state of emergency over the influx of illegal immigrants to the commonwealth. Now, she is asking residents to take illegals into their homes.
I’m sure that people in places like Cambridge, Wellesley and Martha’s Vineyard will be all over this.
K think they are claiming that they have been actually oinvaded, so the "imminent Danger" threshold is irrelevant.
Be that as it may, I don't see how the invasion clause permits states to violate Federal law. It just allows them to "engage in war".
Keep trying, you'll hit that "i" key yet.
crappy laptop and fat fingers
Violating Mexican treaty rights would be an "act of war."
But as I read this, he could invade Mexico and hold Mexican territory on the far side of the river.
He could deploy concintina wire on Mexican territory and shoot anyone crossing it -- that's legal in war.
Heck, he could start lobbing WP rounds across the river -- that'd clear people out damn fast....
Post the full quote:
[n]o state shall, without the Consent of Congress, . . . engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
It says "or", not "and". If actually invaded, the consent of Congress in unnecessary. Abbott's claims exactly that.
Which is completely irrelevant anyway because Texas is not engaging in war, it is repelling invasion.
Yes. One would think the difference between AND and OR would be obvious even to posters here.
If there is an award for legal chutzpah, I nominate Patrick Sweeten for it.
Sometimes you're asked to provide a legal argument where virtually none seems possible, on the cases. That's what the excerpted portion reminds me of - a paper I might have written in law school, and not one I would have gotten a good grade on.
But I think we should not chortle too much at this display of incompetence, because the argument, if accepted, would logically extend to all manner of lethal force against any illegal immigrants, wherever found. Crossing the border outside entry points? Well, how do we know you're not an "invading" drug trafficker? Is it our job to confirm you're not? Ah, you've been living here for a year? How do we know you're not a drug trafficker? Could be a spy! Etc., etc.
SimonP,
Simple, if you care to research American history you will find that Kentucky, Oh, Ga, Il, Orleans (now La) other territories and states enacted laws to prevent, punish, assist, etc in any "invasion" by Spanish in West Florida, Native American Tribes in the South, West, migratory groups of roaming non-Americans from the South to Canada. Groups perhaps residing in the state or territory were legally designated invaders.
A few years ago, I suggested in a post that immigration law researchers should look at these state and territorial laws and their history. They are informative on who are aliens, their rights, if any, citizenship - Federal or State or Other, obligations of citizens to prevent invasions, settlements, use your preferred term.
_
Well, this is a fair bit less coherent than the excerpt presented in the OP.
Here's the question. The Constitution clearly forbids states from engaging in war. The rationale for this seems obvious - in a union like ours, we need a single national policy when it comes to engaging in war. But the Constitution also draws a narrow exception to this general rule, when states cannot turn to the federal government for timely aid; that is, when "actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
So, we need to understand what the framers meant to refer to by "invasion" or other "imminent danger as will not admit of delay."
The OP - and your examples - do not really shed light on this question. Madison's statement about repelling smugglers with military force does not really shed light on whether such responsibility should fall to states or the federal government. The various contemporaneous statutes enacted by Congress similarly do not tell us whether the "invasions" they might have been intended to address are the sorts of "invasions" states are meant to have some right to repel by military force. Attacks on territories prior to their admission to the union similarly fail to settle the question.
The focus on whether "invasion" requires a "state actor" is, in fact, something of a red herring. I don't know whether that was prefigured by the Biden lawsuit itself, or just a Texas attorney giving it the good ol' college try. But conceding that an "invasion" can be effected by an Indian tribe or even by a criminal syndicate does not establish that what's happening in Texas is an "invasion," much less one that Texas has a constitutional right to repel with physical barriers placed on an international border.
The Constitution does not say that states may "wage war" in the event of an "invasion, if the do-nothing Biden administration refuses to do its job in securing our border." It does not say that states may "wage war" against "invasions, understood for some reason to include organized criminal activity that is not seeking to seize territory, attack state assets, or do anything within the state besides traffic drugs." It says that states can step in to repel invasions or other imminent dangers when the federal government cannot act quickly enough to address it, on its own.
Put another way - if Texas's argument is right, what stops Abbott from invading and seizing territory on the other side of the Mexican border? The way, say, ye olde states and territories may have done?
"Madison’s statement about repelling smugglers with military force does not really shed light on whether such responsibility should fall to states or the federal government."
Nobody is claiming that it does. They're claiming that it sheds light on whether "invasion" is limited to just uniformed armies marching across borders.
OTOH, I don't think the reference to "invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe." really implies what he wants; Indian tribes WERE nations, they just weren't foreign nations, being internal to our borders. But they were still regarded as separate sovereigns, NOT non-state actors.
That's why we made treaties with them, after all. You don't make treaties with non-state actors.
Simon, as I have been arguing, that's EXACTLY what it authorizes.
Texas has a Constitutional right to open up with a .50 cal machine gun and mow them all down.
I'm not saying "should", I'm saying "could."
And there is nothing in the rules of war about determining the motive of the individual enemy combatant. John Kerry shot a VC in the back as he was running away and that was OK...
>Texas has a Constitutional right to open up with a .50 cal machine gun and mow them all down.
I suspect that's a violation of international law. But I'm not a lawyer and I haven't looked it up.
NYC Mayor Adams wants Biden to declare emergency due to overwhelming influx of illegal aliens (i.e. "asylum seekers" *wink* lol) being let in by the Biden administration, says it is costing the City $12 billion.
Adams is a lazy SOB who would prefer to pass blame rather than to accept responsibility. He's planning a "tent city" that's precisely intended to shift the visuals and politics in favor of shipping migrants anywhere but here. You'll see pics of it all over right-wing media when it happens.
He seriously thought he would "swagger" into office, re-set the city to pre-COVID times, and everything would sort itself out. He's not ready to work, and he isn't.
His strength is blaming others for whatever befalls the city.
Like blaming parents for not knowing where their kids were as the cause of the Union Square riot.
Good parent that he is he made sure to text his adult son to make sure he was safe.
What responsibility does the Mayor of NYC bear for the Biden administration's heinous open border pro-illegal immigration policies?
"This mess is all a plain, foreseeable consequence of New York having proudly designated itself a Sanctuary City." (source)
I think there is some truth to the fact that NYC policy, which requires housing migrants, has acted to draw them to the city. It seems like a good demonstration of what kinds of government benefits do attract immigration flow, in contrast to the bugaboos conservatives like to cite.
Meanwhile, governors like Abbott and the Meatball are showing what a more draconian approach can do - you drive migrants away, businesses hurt for workers, the mess is more out of sight, out of mind.
So, the lessons seem to be - you can be a sanctuary city, if you like, but you need to have a plan for what to do with the migrants who seek that sanctuary, because they will come. And you can be more punitive in approach, but you should acknowledge that punishing and criminalizing migrants will distort your own economy and impact citizens in ways that are not liberty-promoting (e.g., by punishing individuals who employ or provide aid to undocumented immigrants).
Personally, I would rather live in a sanctuary city with an imperfectly run system for feeding and housing migrants, than I would in a city where any personal effort to lessen the hardships of migrants could lead to my being informed on by a neighbor to the state immigration police.
We already have an immigrant-related "emergency" in Massachusetts. I am so far unaffected by the migrant crisis or the government's reaction. They can't afford to live in my town. If they are working as cleaners, landscapers, or roofers at least they are gainfully employed.
Was filing in Austin rather than the Rio Grande Valley forum shopping by the federal government?
With Judge Yeakel's retirement, Austin is a single judge division. Current standing order assigning the business of the Court (May 1, 2023), gives Judge Pitman 50% of Austin civil docket and "oversight and management of the remaining fifty percent" of the Austin civil docket.
I am sure this has nothing at all to do with Austin being the bright blue dot in a red state.
I am sure the same two Texas senators control federal judgeship nominations in Austin as in the rest of Texas.
The politics of the city is irrelevan. If you are going to claim forum shopping just point to Judge Robert Pittman being an Obama nominee
That is, of course, what Josh is trying to insinuate, since he has written repeatedly on how "everyone forum shops," so we shouldn't be too upset when a coalition of Republican-led states consistently decides to file all of their anti-Biden, politically-motivated lawsuits in one or two districts in Texas.
I would agree that all good private lawyers forum shop when they can. Whether government lawyers should is a bit more complex. I haven't given that much thought beyond the notion that they also have obligations to to public.
"A wall of steel cargo containers and miles of coiled razor wire.
There is also razor wire under the water’s surface, a hazard for anyone who might stumble upon it.
...
there are serrated metal plates that look like circular saw blades between each buoy to deter anyone from climbing over it.
...
In recent days, bodies of migrants have been discovered near the buoy barrier.
Texas officials say the men likely drowned upstream. One body was caught in the buoys."
Are we the baddies?
Open embrace of cartoon super-villainy. And this is the stuff the old elected politicians embrace. Just wait until the groyper-fied young Republican staffers start getting into office. We’re a few years away from open praise of the El Paso shooter and encouragement of similar acts.
Cartoon super-villainy would be doing this where people were actually entitled to be.
Pit trap in the walking trail at your local park? Super-villainy.
Pit trap in your own backyard surrounded by "trespassers will end up in pit trap" signs? At worst ordinary villainy.
You know that the heroes aren't entitled to be in the supervillain's lair either?
And of course you're defending this. You're a demonstrably bad person who routinely demonstrates a sociopathic disregard for human life despite you're supposedly serious Catholic faith. Tell me where in the Catechism people are permitted to set up death traps that can mutilate children are morally okay because they "aren't entitled to be there."
I mean, he did call it "ordinary villainy." I feel like that's progress.
It's only progress if he suggests ordinary villainy should be rejected.
Governments routinely engage in ordinary villainy, which is to say, conduct we don't permit non-government to engage in. We have a whole parallel vocabulary to describe acts by government an non-government.
For instance, if I threaten to do horrible things to you if you don't give me money, that's robbery, extortion, or so forth, depending on the details. If the government does it?
Taxation.
So, if you or I place a death trap where other people have no business being, the government punishes us.
If the government places a death trap where people have no business being, that's just a mine field, or whatever.
Now, if you REALLY want to hold government to the standards of ordinary, non-governmental morality? Cool, let's discuss anarchism.
But I don't think you're anarchists, you're only too happy to have government engage in ordinary villainy if you approve of the aim. You're just invoking villainy here because you disapprove of the policy.
I regret my error.
No. I am invoking villainy because they are using cruel traps designed to mutilate people (including children) so that they die for the "offense" of trying to cross a river. You are supporting that, that makes you a villain.
From what I can tell from the coverage, they aren't using "cruel traps", they have the buoys in the water, which are decidedly sharp edge free, and then they have barbed wire along the shore. It's possible in a few places the barbed wire has strayed into the water, either due to flooding, or illegals dragging it around to try to get it out of the way. But I can't find any information indicating that anybody is deliberately putting barbed wire where it isn't visible.
I don't want children dying because their parents drag them along while illegally crossing a river, any more than I want children dying because their parents drag them along while illegally crossing a desert. I don't want children dying because their parents drag them along while breaking into military bases, or robbing banks, or any other crime the parents might get it into their heads to commit.
As I wrote below, a nearby factory has barbed wire atop their fence. It would be a tragedy if some moron took their kid along while breaking in to the plant, and the kid got injured. But avoiding that is on the moron, not the factory; They put the barbed wire in plain sight, and nobody has to get cut on it.
they have the buoys in the water, which are decidedly sharp edge free
Incorrect.
It’s possible in a few places the barbed wire has strayed into the water, either due to flooding, or illegals dragging it around to try to get it out of the way.
It is possible you're making excuses for some heinous shit.
And why bother knowing the facts when you know you'll be defending it no matter how awful it is.
I read several news articles, after searching for "Texas buoys razor wire", trying to find where you'd found something about razor wire wrapped buoys with saw blades underwater. Everything I came up with said that the barbed wire was on the shore, all the pictures I saw showed it mounted well onto dry land.
I think it's possible some of the wire accidentally found its way into the water, but I'm finding absolutely nothing suggesting it was deliberate on the part of Texas.
Pretty sure dragging the kids along while doing an illegal border crossing was deliberate on the part of the parents, though.
You're quite skeptical of a widely reported story.
There are pictures of the saw blades. For whatever reason you don't seem that into discussing the saw blades.
As for the razor wire: https://www.tpr.org/border-immigration/2023-08-06/up-close-look-at-gov-greg-abbotts-floating-wall-in-the-rio-grande
Yeah, I found and linked to a similar story almost an hour ago.
Serrated disks, can’t see how sharp they are; Lose a finger sharp, or unpleasant to lean on sharp? The video I saw had the guy prodding them, so I lean towards unpleasant.
And razor wire on land.
I see no trap there. I see a barrier that would scream “don’t cross me” even if it didn’t literally have signage saying that. I don’t think it’s legally different from any normal application of razor wire as an entry deterrent.
There is reporting of razor wire in the water. You're going to demand photos or it isn't true.
They *can't* have razor wire in the water because it wouldn't stay there!!!
Razor wire in the water would snag *all* floating debris, which would then drag the wire downstream. At this point the wire would either break loose from whatever it was fastened to (and be gone) or take that with it as well (and also be gone downstream).
I don't think you realize the power that even slowly moving water has.
So if they were bright enough to attach it with shear bolts or something designed to break and let the wire go, they'd still be out at least daily replacing it. And the wire going downstream doesn't vanish, it very quickly would be causing any number of problems somewhere downstream -- problems which can usually only be solved with dynamite.
No, this isn't happening -- we'd hear about it if it were.
Underwater barbed wire?
Who would consider attempting to defend that?
A bunch of societal rejects who embraced torture, too.
Or, in the case of this guy, an antisocial, disaffected, autistic, bigoted, right-wing stain and drain on modern American society.
Kirkland, underwater barbed wire would grab all debris and be quickly ripped loose. It would then continue downstream, grabbing more debris until it blocked the river and caused massive flooding.
And the only thing one can do at that point is blast it out with dynamite. Trust me, we'd hear about that....
Incidentally, where are you getting the underwater razor wire and serrated blades from? I've found some news accounts, and it appears to me that all the razor wire is on dry land.
I see this account says some of it ended up in the water. Maybe due to flooding?
I was struck by this remark:
“I don’t understand: If they were just going to arrest us and let us go, why do they have to put all that up?” he said. “It doesn’t seem right.”
Heck, there's a factory near here that has razor wire on the fence. If you somehow manage to get past it, they're just going to arrest you... I agree the "and let us go" is problematic, a lot of Americans are ticked off about that, too.
Look, every adult involved, every damned one of them, knows that they're breaking the law, crossing the border illegally. If they endanger children in the process, all the worse for them. That nearby factory doesn't have to strip away their barbed wire fence just because some lunatic decides to take their kid along with them while breaking in.
If they endanger children in the process, all the worse for them.
What about the children? No thought about them, as if their parents acts morally permits them to be mutilated too. Like I said, cartoon supervillainy and you are a demonstrably bad person under pretty much every notion of human morality ever conceived and a heretic to boot.
What about the children?
Maybe you should ask their parents about that? Their parents, who have agency here, and deliberately decided to bring their children along while dangerously engaging in criminal acts? Their parents who knew going in that it was dangerous and illegal, and brought their children anyway?
I have all sorts of sympathy for the children, let's prosecute the parents for child abuse as well as criminal entry into the country.
So you murder the children then you prosecute the parents for being poor and desperate. Getting mighty fascist, but this has a 'pay for the bullet you're shot with' flavour, too.
Sarcastro loves to "quote" things while not providing the source, and also always attacks anyone on the other side who does the same thing.
I neglected to provide a source, it is true. I did not expect people to claim that facts were other than as they have been widely reported.
You can google any of the phrases and find the source.
Razor wire under the water.
Jeeus would be proud. I think it's one of the Beattitudes.
Heck, I one time ran into barbed wire underwater, and it wasn't on the border, or anywhere I wasn't supposed to be. It was, as near as I could tell, just a case of a fence post washing into the lake during a storm. So I'm personally aware that barbed wire can end up where it isn't supposed to be.
That's why I'm willing to tentatively credit the existence of a bit of underwater razor wire, though I've seen no objective proof of it. Doesn't in any way imply somebody deliberately put it in the water.
If you put up a barrier to keep people in, then you're the bad guy.
If you put up a barrier to keep people out, that's an expression of sovereignty.
Is Obama the baddie for having high security fences?
'a barrier.'
Go lose another Civil War.
My side WON the first one, and we'll WIN the second one...
Ed, shut up with that bullshit. You're just a bullshit keyboard warrior who doesn't have the stones to say things publicly, much less take a gun and start trying to shoot people who are armed and shooting back. You'd piss your pants in the first five minutes.
Hey, Texas won a war for liberty from a dictator before it was on the losing side in the Civil War. So we’re 1-1.
But your comment was a bullshit response to his point. The feds have razor wire all over the place at every prison they run. Have all of our presidents been cruel sadists? Biden is overseeing such facilities right now. Is he a cruel sadist?
I don’t know what I think about this but I know that if your precious unfailing federal government would do its fucking job it wouldn’t have occurred to anyone to do it. And it’s easy to avoid. Take your choice, either don’t try to come at all or try to cross at a place where there’s no razor wire – you know, the vast majority of the border. It’s not rocket science. But saying that makes the migrants have a consequence for their own decisions. Can’t have that. They’re entitled to cross at whatever place they want, right? You and your side are all about entitlement and none about consequences.
I called ML out for just calling it ‘a barrier' when the issue under discussion here is largely about the specifics of the barrier. Which he knows, but ignores because it'd wreck his argument.
As for your attempt to update his analogy, the border is not a prison; crossing illegally is not a criminal act. Nor is it an invasion.
I'm all for reforming our immigration policies and including a well funded, *humane&* policy of border security in that.
This shit? It's not about policy, it's about performative cruelty against an outgroup. You know, like authoritarians do.
Well said.
Meanwhile, this barrier is already killing people. Basically it's less of a barrier than a death trap.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rio-grande-buoy-barrier-body-texas-abbott/
Bullshit. Bodies are pulled out of the Rio all the time. But of course it does fir the narrative.
I agree that we need more evidence of cause/time of death before we can say anything like, "the barrier caused this person to die."
Query whether any of that evidence will be sought by the people in a position to do so.
As bumble noted, illegal immigrants who cant swim die frequently trying to cross the Rio. The bouy probably reduces the risk of drowning by giving the non swimmer a place to rest.
Remember the ropes in the swimming pool you hung onto as a kid.
Do the ropes in swimming pools have razor wire coiled around them?
No evidence I've seen that the buoys do. The barbed wire is along the shore.
The razor wire is easily avoidable.
Yes. It can be avoided by removing it and not using it as a trap to mutilate desperate humans.
It can easily be avoided by not criminally engaging in illegal border crossing.
I swear, if these people literally catapulted their children over a border wall, you'd blame Texas for not lining the far side with pillows. They can't do any wrong in your eyes.
Dodge dat point. Bob and weave and avoid it at all costs.
It’s not intended as a trap to mutilate human beings. And it’s easy to avoid. The fact that you won’t admit it doesn’t change that fact. You can avoid it and still try to cross the river.
So your piety is noted but you might consider getting off of your high horse.
Stop making shit up. There is NO razor wire on the buoys.
Oh its underwater. That's such a difference.
It CAN'T be -- it would get ripped loose if it were!
I know you know nothing about the power of moving water -- just trust me on this...
law talking point guy
do you have actual information that the bouys are strung with razor wire - or is that a typical unfounded talking point.
I'm sorry I was being imprecise the buoyed have serrated edges. Not razor wire. That's elsewhere. My apologies for not being hyper-specific about which maiming devices are where. That's such an important point that makes all the moral difference in the world.
Law talking point guy
do you have any actual citations . documentation or other factual support for the razor wire, serrated edges, barbed wire or any other variation of the maiming devices you have claimed have been placed in or near the rio ? Huff post Vox or another discredited news source
I am kinda dubious for the claim.
Definitely razor wire, installed on dry land adjacent to the water.
Serrated disks between the buoys, maybe dangerous, maybe just uncomfortable, but not doing to do you any harm if you don't try climbing over them.
I couldn't find any actual evidence of deliberate underwater razor wire, though I'm willing to believe it could happen accidentally.
But all of it is perfectly avoidable by just not crossing the border.
Or by attempting to cross somewhere along the border where the barbed wire isn’t.
So, I found your serrated edges.
Yeah, look unpleasant. They're also entirely visible, not hidden. Like barbed wire, won't hurt you a bit if you don't try to climb over them, And there's a prominent sign on each buoy saying in Spanish, "Do not cross".
The unstated but obvious premise here is that these people are somehow entitled to be where they're injuring themselves. They're not. They're knowingly engaging in a criminal activity, and dragging kids along while doing it.
Prosecute them for child abuse.
Thanks brett
A several statements about the razor wire, but no actual pictures.
I remain skeptical of the razor wire claim.
I'm not totally skeptical of it being present in one or two places, because I know from personal experience that barbed wire can end up where it isn't supposed to be. I am VERY skeptical of the idea that Texas is deliberately placing it underwater.
People who disagree with them have to be monsters, though, so it must be deliberate if it's there...
The unstated but obvious premise is this is not a reasonable use of force for what it's attempting to deter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney
No, that's the fallback premise. The actual claim above is that it's a sadistic murderous death trap aimed at little kids.
I don't see how it's legally any different, the Rivers and Harbors act aside, from any regular use of barbed wire. It's not hidden, it's in plain sight, and it's where these people have no legal business being, they encounter it only because of premeditated illegality.
No difference legally from a roll of barbed wire atop any fence in a bad neighborhood or around a facility that needs to be secure. Any of those uses of barbed wire can result in children being injured if parents take their children along while illegally crossing the fence.
If you had a kid, and took him along while breaking into a utility lot to steal copper, that had barbed wire atop the fence, who would that be on, Sarcastr0? The utility company, or you?
It is sadistic. I don't find it's murdered anyone yet, and I don't think it's aimed at kids, but sure as fuck doesn't care if they get hurt.
I don’t see how it’s legally any different, the Rivers and Harbors act aside, from any regular use of barbed wire.
That would *also* be sadistic.
It doesn't matter if it's in plain sight - it's still deadly force. Which is uncalled for in this situation. You don't get to electrify you fence to a deadly degree just because you put up a sign.
Utility lots have phased out razor wire these days. Wonder why? Because they kept getting sued for people injuring themselves!
And now they have people stealing the copper ground wires, and the three phases losing reference to ground, and people's houses burning down.
It would have been cheaper to pay the barbed wire suits...
"Utility lots have phased out razor wire these days. "
Not around here, they haven't.
You are still advocating for a level of force that is not legally permitted to protect one's property, much less a border.
You gonna join Ed in the machine gun nests?
"You are still advocating for a level of force that is not legally permitted to protect one’s property,"
Nope, actually is, depending on circumstances.
" much less a border."
Much MORE a border! Not much less.
A fence is a use of force? Ridiculous. My neighbors all have 8' cedar fences around our back yards. Are my neighbors applying force toward me? How should I fight back?
But you're from the words are violence crowd, so normal meanings don't apply when you argue.
If it were just a fence, the issue would be quite different.
It is just a fence. Easily avoidable. No force is being applied to the migrants at all, except by way of their choice.
Tanks and troops with rubber bullets would be an acceptable alternative.
I'm sure any day now Steve Vladeck will be having a meltdown about the government's apparent (read: obvious) forum shopping.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA! Just kidding.
A legal commentator who has not given much thought to the invasion clause after two and a half years of unopposed invasion across our southern border by drug smugglers, slavers, and military age men of enemy nations must not be very aware of the state of our Union. The 2022 election in Arizona turned in great part on one candidates stated intent to invoke the clause and close the state's southern border. Governor Abbot's dilatory work to stem the tide, which now number greater that the population of several states, hardly constitutes rebellion against the District of Corruption.
The idea of "closing the border" is folly. The workers are needed, especially in TX and FL. Also, mexico is now essentially a manufacturing and economic contractor for the united states, mostly because of the cheaper labor there. So, the workers that don't come across the border, do other work for the US while still in mexico.
China and other nations are establishing large economic footholds in mexico, all to serve the US market. Mostly because of the "free trade" rules between the united states and mexico. Any other country can get the same "free trade" status as mexico has, just by locating in mexico.
If you think any of this can be stopped or even curtailed, there is no chance. Cheap labor and easy trade rules will always win, because moneyed interests prefer them, and also because they are already entrenched in the system.
Write your Congressperson.
Write your Congressperson.
Wait, does the buoy system count as "engaging in war?" That seems unlikely.
Texas Invokes Invasion Clause In Rio Grande Case
Wow are you the dumbest law professor or what? There is no "Invasion Clause!" Abbott made it up!
(Every once in a while, someone might call the invasion part of the Guarantee Clause -- "and shall protect each of them against invasion" -- the "invasion clause" but even that is super rare. No one has ever called "unless actually invaded" the "Invasion Clause" until like last week.)
Hahahahaha I wonder why not. Maybe because it's not a thing? What an absolute dolt.
Not even Texas's brief is stupid enough to call "unless actually invaded" the Invasion Clause. Oh my aching lolz.
Another impressive performance by This Guy.
So, any normal legal scholar wouldn't pass this information along breathlessly, but might actually take the time to bother explaining the legal issues in this action; moreover, they would probably note just how ... bad ... the legal arguments in this case are, and why the Feds chose to concentrate on the Rivers and Harbors Act.
Is that what This Guy did? Nope. Because that might require analysis, instead of just throwing out some red meat. So the question becomes- does he not know the law, or does he not care?
Why not both?
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