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"Providing Information About or Referring Patients to Legal Out-of-State Abortion Services" Is Protected …
by the First Amendment, even if the abortion would be illegal in the state, holds a federal judge in Idaho.
From Planned Parenthood Greater Northwest v. Labrador, decided Monday by Judge B. Lynn Winmill (D. Idaho) (and already appealed):
This case involves a challenge to Attorney General Raúl Labrador's interpretation of Idaho's criminal abortion statute, Idaho Code § 18-622. Earlier this year, Attorney General Labrador drafted a letter interpreting this sentence of Section 18-622: "The professional license of any health care professional who … assists in performing or attempting to perform an abortion … shall be suspended …." That letter interprets the "assisting" language to include providing information about or referring patients to legal out-of-state abortion services….
Interestingly, the State did not engage [plaintiffs' First Amendment] argument in any way, relying instead entirely on its jurisdictional challenges [which the court rejected -EV]…. [T]he Court finds that the Medical Providers are likely to succeed on their First Amendment cause of action.
In particular, the Medical Providers contend that the Crane Letter interpretation violates the First Amendment because it impermissibly regulates speech based on content and viewpoint. The Medical Providers explain that the interpretation's prohibition of medical providers offering "support or aid" to a woman seeking an abortion, including "refer[ring] a woman across state lines to an abortion provider[,]" is content-based because health care providers are silenced on a single topic—abortion—and is viewpoint discretionary [sic] because health care providers can provide information and referrals about out-of-state resources like anti-abortion counseling centers or prenatal care. The Medical Providers note that the interpretation is therefore subject to strict scrutiny.
The Medical Providers explain that Crane Letter interpretation "furthers no legitimate state interest, much less a compelling one." They further contend that the State cannot prove that the interpretation is narrowly tailored to further whatever compelling interest could be found because it sweeps in a large swath of obviously protected speech. Because the State has not opposed the First Amendment claim, and because the Court finds the Medical Providers' argument persuasive, the Court finds that the Medical Providers have shown that they are likely to succeed on the merits of their First Amendment challenge.
The correct result, I think. Plaintiffs are represented by Colleen R. Smith (Stris & Maher LLP and ACLU-Idaho Cooperating Attorney), plus too many other lawyers to list here.
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Clinton judge.
So what? It would be completely antithetical to the First Amendment (as well as completely antithetical to the values of this country and to the rights of women) to allow a state to de-license doctors who discuss abortion with their patients.
Its a dog bites man decision. The case was over the day he [or any Democrat] got the assignment.
So much easier than engaging with the legal arguments. You can always be counted on for the least interesting take on any case.
The case would have been over the day almost any Republican got the assignment. The Idaho law is so blatantly unconstitutional I doubt even Clarence Thomas would have upheld it.
Trump judges have often shown an equal respect for the First Amendment. Maybe you could try following their example.
This is one where I agree with the decision. If I tell a person in Kommiefornia how to go to change his residence to Arizona where he has a second house and buy a gun there, it shouldn't be illegal. I don't see much of a distinction.
Have any states criminalized travel out of state for the purpose of getting an abortion? I recall hearing about a bill that had not yet passed. If it's illegal to drive to Washington to get an abortion then the state would have a better reason to forbid advising women to do so. I suspect not a sufficient reason, not in the Ninth Circuit, but a better reason.
Our future may have abortion clinics at the first exit off the Interstate in a "blue" state. Like Nevada has casinos near the state line and some states have fireworks stores.
. If it’s illegal to drive to Washington to get an abortion then the state would have a better reason to forbid advising women to do so.
So your position is that if a state violates their citizens' right to travel, the state can then also violate their free speech rights as well?
That's crazy. Seriously, pro-lifers need to just stop it. There are going to be places in America where people can get abortions, because the populace in those places doesn't agree with pro-lifers about abortion. The sooner pro-lifers grow up about the fact that they live in a pluralistic society the better.
The standard of Brandenburg v. Ohio applies. It can't be illegal in general to observe that Washington has liberal abortion laws. There will be a threshold beyond which generalized discussion turns into soliciation of a crime or aiding and abetting.
Of course people have freedom to go elsewhere and do stuff that's illegal in your state.
"Right on! Freedom!"
"Unless it's people fleeing your broken state because of your policies, then you want to impede their movement with an exit tax."
"Shut up!", he explained.
“Blah blah blah,” responds someone who fancies themselves a thinker.
I suppose Texas could apply a “temporary exit tax for those seeking an abortion.”
“SHUT THE HELL UP!” screetched the purple-faced apoplectic.
"pro-lifers need to just stop it"
I don't think we will.
So fine, you can keep losing elections over it.
Lots of wishcasting based on Kansas and one or two other places.
Dobbs was a shock to the system, its effects will mitigate in time, IMHO.
But some things are more important than elections.
Has an anti-abortion referendum won in any state since Dobbs was decided? I am not aware of that happening.
Unfortunately, yes. Here in Nebraska we knocked the tike limit down from 20 weeks to 12.
Wasn't that by legislation rather than referendum?
By legislation, not referendum. In several states the Right is scurrying to erect roadblocks to prevent referendums on abortion.
Oh yes, my mistake. I wasn't reading carefully.
Aren't legislators in Nebraska chosen by erections? Maybe they should require the Governor to sign legislation.
"Has an anti-abortion referendum won in any state since Dobbs"
I do not think there have been any so probably not.
No aborted baby has grown up to vote for or against anything
"county line" liquor stores, General; don't forget "county line" liquor stores.
Such a law is unconstitutional for another reason, i.e., it infringes on the freedom of travel.
You don't reach the Freedom of Speech issue because the law falls on impermissibly banning interstate travel.
Soliciting, attempting or assisting in an act legal in the target jurisdiction but illegal where the solicitation, attempt, or assistance occurs is routinely done. Sex with minors (different ages of majority across jurisdictions) and drugs are prime examples.
Given the Dobbs deecision, abortion should be handled the same way as any other crime.
You may agree or disagree with the policy. In most cases it’s the common practice in the United States not to make this type of conduct illegal, for example not to make trips to Nevada for gambling or prostitution, or to Spain tor bullfighting, illegal. It may be sound policy not to. But it is a policy question.
“Come to the Netherlands and enjoy our hash bars and red light district!”
Illegal? How about 20 years ago?
When you immediately try to obfuscate the issue by ignoring the central point being made in a discussion, are you aware that you're acting in bad faith, or does this somehow all happen on a subconscious level?
We're speaking here specifically of referring patients out of state or providing information that they can use to seek care out of state. We're not talking about taking a minor across state lines to have sex with them, or structuring a drug transaction so that it occurs just outside of a state where it would be illegal.
Referring patients to doctors out of state for abortion care is like telling someone where they can go to legally gamble or buy weed. It's not "customary" not to punish such referrals; it's unconstitutional. And you people really should be far more concerned about eroding that constitutional protection than you seem to be.
One could look at things from your point of view. One cod also look at things from the state’s alternative point of view, which likely considers what’s involved akin to taking a citizen of the state to a jurisdiction where performing hits is legal for purposes of performing a hit on the citizen.
But while the point of view one takes will likely affect the policy choices one prefers, I don’t see how it affects the constitutiional analysis in the slightest.
Consider a husband who feels his wife is annoying him to the point of damaging his mental state. He takes her to some place where there’s some jurisdictional black-hole anomaly – and kills her. He feels better mentally. Suopose this actually shows up on before- and after- psychological test. he is actually less clinically depressed, and doing this has actually measurably helped his mental health.
He has done exactly what you said, left the state to obtain health care in a place where this form of health care is legal.
Same analysis?
Does it make a difference if a licensed doctor is involved, perhaps prescribes or recommends a poison for use on the wife?
As one of many possible examples, Consider Florida’s “travelling to meet a minor” statute, similar to laws in many other states, which prohibits travelling “from this state” to perform a sex act with a minor as Florida defines a minor. It prohibits use of a computer to facilitate such travel, among many other things. It doesn’t matter in the slightest if the destination jurisdiction regards the “minor” involved as a fully consenting adult.
A state is entitled to say an individual is a minor for purposes of its laws regardless of how anywhere else sees things. And it can prohibit travel from the state to do an act legal in the destination state. Many states have done exactly this where sex with a minor is concerned.
Sure, states don’t tend to do that with things like gambling. But they COULD if they wanted to. There’s no constitutional difference. And they can do it with abortion. Whether abortion is to be regarded as a positive form of health care, a relatively minor crime like gambling, or a crime of violence against children (like sex with a minor) of a sort that justifies extending their jurisdiction to reach as far as they can reach, are all questions that, after Dobbs, are up to each state to decide.
Furthermore, it has been established that a crime need not happen within a legal jurisdiction to be prosecuted (see the Bush signed law for sex with foreign minors overseas)
Bullfighting is illegal in the United States. Can a state pass a law prohibiting travel agencies from booking trips to Spain for travelers wishing to see a bullfight? Prohibiting travel agencies from telling travelers bullfighting is legal in Spain?
What if pigs traveled to your state, having done something illegal, but not once they enter?
Could they forbid export of happy pigs to miserable states, where illegal activity, to you, will be applied to them?
For the record, I think it’s fine for a state to ban meat from shoddily-treated animals, not be able to stop abortion travel, and not be able to stop abortions at all. But I am not running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to have my situational ethics poppy strudel and eat it, too.
See my answer to Queen above. Yes, the US can pass and enforce a law prohibiting travelers from taking part in an activity that is nevertheless legal in the country you're visiting. There are several examples where they already do.
Subject only to the Supremacy Clause, individual states can do the same. It might be very stupid to do so but unambiguous that they can.
The US government can definitely prohibit you from traveling to Thailand and purchasing underage sex, so I would assume they can prohibit you from going to a bullfight in Spain too.
But that wasn't my hypothetical. (1) States, unlike the federal government, don't have the benefit of the Foreign Commerce Clause; indeed it works against their position on that sort of issue; and (2) this is a speech regulation. Can a state bar a travel agent from talking to you about bullfights in Spain?
States do bar you from things like online betting despite the activity beyond the booking being legal in one jurisdiction.
I'd suggest shifting your hypo to something germane. Could your state charge you for arranging for your kid to star in CP in Thailand if they have proof it happened? How about getting a referral for someone to commit murder for you?
You want to focus on the transitory, mundane and ultimately minor to avoid what you're really suggesting.
You can’t seem to comprehend the difference between things that are legal in another jurisdiction and things that are not legal in another jurisdiction.
You don't seem to understand what murder is. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
Calling a legal act murder is so perfectly doctrinaire. There’s no sense paying attention to you because you’re not able to recognize what’s real.
re: "that wasn't my hypothetical." You asked two questions in your first comment.
1. Can they stop you from booking the trip? As addressed in my reply, yes.
2. Can they stop you from talking about it? Not addressed in my reply but no.
Interesting point about the Foreign Commerce Clause but I don't think it resolves the question. That might prevent a state from outlawing international travel (but perhaps only if the feds have already spoken on the specific topic). But it doesn't speak at all to the original questions about regulating behavior of your citizens while they are in other states.
Consider Florida’s statute, not an atypical one, prohibiting “travel to meet a minor” which specifically prohibits traveling “from this state” to meet a minor, as Florida defines a minor, anywhere in the world, regardless of the age of majority in the destination jurisdiction. It would prohibit exactly the travel-to-Thailand hypothetical in your comment.
This sort of thing is rarely done, only for a few crimes states consider really, really serious or otherwise specially focus on. But it can be done and has been done, where states really, really, really want to make a point. The differences are policy differences, not constitutional differences,
Interesting. I gather that this means that someone 30 years old from (I'm totally making up the state laws at play here, because I'm too lazy to look them up.) California can get in trouble for going to Thailand to have sex with a 15 year old, while a similar person from Alaska would not be charged, and a person from Idaho might or might not, depending on the age-gap between this last person and the 15 year old Thai boy/girl.
I'm not sure why I expected that laws that target "overseas travel-"related behavior would be standardized nationwide, but I did assume that.
I am not a Florida lawyer, but the plain text of the statute does not say what you claim it says. It prohibits traveling to meet a minor within, to, or "from this state" for the purpose of engaging in any illegal act (specified in certain statutes). If the conduct is legal where it takes place, then it is not in fact an "illegal act." Note that it does not say "for the purpose of engaging in any act that would be illegal if it happened in this state."
The cross-referenced statutes do indeed declare the acts to be illegal, in Florida. Florida doesn't have jurisdiction over the actual commission of those acts out of state, but does over the preparatory acts in the state -- here, travel for the purpose of committing same. This is a pretty typical structure for statutes touching on extraterritorial conduct.
It doesn't need to, since it explicitly references a set of statutes that themselves describe acts that are illegal if they happen in Florida. Your magic words actually would immensely broaden the scope of the proscribed conduct.
Um, yes, that's literally my point. If it used the words I proffered, the statute would be much broader. Because it doesn't use those words, it's narrower.
They declare the acts to be illegal if done in Florida. They do not declare the acts to be illegal if done in Alabama. It is not illegal in Florida to have consensual sex with a 17-year old in Alabama. It is also not illegal in Alabama to have consensual sex with a 17-year old in Alabama. (Yes, insert Alabama jokes here.) Therefore, traveling from Florida to Alabama to have sex with a 17-year old is not traveling from Florida "for the purpose of engaging in any illegal act."
Ipse dixit is not very convincing.
SCOTUS has ruled in Thornburgh and Akron that a state may regulate the speech of doctors who provide abortion services. I don't see why this is any different.
Note: SCOTUS has also ruled that the state may no regulate the speech of doctors who lie about providing abortion services.
It's clear why Roe v Wade was never passed by Congress,
"The Afro-Amurican Population Reduction Act of 1973" wouldn't have gone over very well (Well actually it would have with much of the 1973 DemoKKKrat Congress, but those damn Liberal Repubiclowns screw things up for everybody)
You know Milhouse would have signed it. There's even a White House tape where he talks about the need for Abortion for "Special Cases" Rape, Life of the Mother, Interracial Baby
It's sort of like the "Replacement" Coach/Reverend Sandusky/Kirtland is always blathering about.
Frank
Why isn't this subject to the same restrictions on professional speech as other medical advice?
I think it is subject to the same restrictions. In National Institute of Family and Life Advocates v. Becerra the Court held that California's requirement that pregnancy clinics provide information on where to obtain an abortion is an unconstitutional infringement of speech:
I'm not seeing how a proscription on providing information about an out-of-state abortion can be considered a regulation of conduct.
OK, baby-killer
Yes
But of course abortion is not a treatment because pregnancy is not a disease.
"MAGAs"
I was exactly the same when Trump was a part time actor.
The thing is, Bob openly admits it. He says that he has no principles and cares only about 'winning.' That means, of course, that the anti-abortion talk itself is nonsense; he doesn't care about it, except that the people he dislikes are for it, so he's against it. If feminists started arguing against abortion, he'd decide that it was great.
There is a line. Saying "Doctors in Washington love to kill babies" is clearly fine. Or "provide abortion care" if you're one of the euphemizers. But... "Go to Marla and Carla's abortion mart, first exit on I-90 inside Washington, tell them the Queen sent you". That's not so clear. It's clear under current law, I mean, but maybe not if Idaho bans travel with intent to abort. Like I said, the Ninth Circuit will bend over backwards, en banc if necessary, to make that legal no matter what Idaho law says. But what if it's Texas banning travel to New Mexico and the case goes to the Fifth Circuit? Is Judge Ho going to say "free speech" or "this fits into an exception"?
If a ban on abortion travel passes the only way it could be upheld is if the state has some jurisdiction over the resident fetus. The fetus distinguishes the abortion trip to Washington from the gambling trip to Nevada.
There will be four votes on the Supreme Court against such laws (liberals plus Roberts). Probably more, but I'm not sure of that.
Could a state do it? Yes, obviously. US law, for example, makes it illegal to take or offer a bribe even if that is not only legal but expected in the foreign country. If the feds can assert jurisdiction over their citizens regardless of geography, so can the states.
For another example, states assert the right to tax your purchases regardless of the state you buy in. So clearly the state can make any of those things illegal?
Should they? No. Does the other state have any obligation to facilitate your state's enforcement? Also no. But that's very different from your state's right to make stupid laws.
Deadenders like Bob don't care about reality or truth. As you noted elsewhere, they just want power and control, and will say any lazy bullshit if they think someone will fall for it.
Just emulating their wanna-be king.
Yes. I think it's clear the decision blogged about is correct. Next year the court may have a harder case.
No way, Bob. If I invite my brother to go with me to Vegas to gamble have I violated the law? What if he consorts with a prostitute?
Your position is extreme and anti-liberty.
Ooh. Your mind reading of people you don’t know sucks almost as much as that of your evil twin.
How about just address what people say and do and stay away from mind reading. You look stupid making fun of people for attitudes that you fabricate for them.
Queen almathea : “for many paleos the thought is “I rarely have sex and when I do it’s in a very controlled way, so this issue will never bother me”
Very close. The true rendering is :
“We have sex in a very controlled way and without accidents or failures of contraceptives. So women who don’t shouldn’t have an easy out. They shouldn’t be able to just get away with it. So in this one situation we’re getting all theological with our microscopes and theorems. Because that’s what the effrontery of those women demands. IVF clinics obviously don’t count, because there you’re dealing with matrons seeking to fulfill their womanly duty, not irresponsible sluts trying to evade it. So the biology doesn’t apply then.
And if our daughter has a contraception failure? Our theological theorems would also be not applicable then. Obviously she’s not one of those irresponsible harlots who are being targeted…”
Yup, only I want "power and control", not you. Nope, you [and Queenie] are unbiased and truth telling, totally objective in your views.
I'm not following how taxing out-of-state purchases implies a state may restrict your interstate travel.
That does not, in fact, follow.
It's more like you telling your brother you know a guy in Vegas he can talk to about murdering his wife while they're there on vacation. But I don't expect the cult of moloch to understand that.
No, no it isn’t. Talking about gambling in Nevada or abortion in a different state is talking about something that is legal where you’re going.
Murdering your wife isn’t going to be legal wherever you are going. Your analogy is pathetically lame but I wouldn’t expect someone who babbles about the cult of moloch to understand that.
"says that he has no principles"
Prove that.
It politicians that can have no principles if they want to be successful.
I did not say that they could restrict your travel. I said they could regulate your out-of-state behavior. Taxation is one form of behavior regulation.
At least, as a legal matter though maybe not as a practical matter.
Assuming that the specific regulation in question does not violate the Supremacy Clause, what constitutional provision grants the feds the right to control extraterritorial behavior yet denies that same right to the states?
But now there's a name for it.
"Would this please Harlan Crowe?"
Only the white ones
Yes. Save the Zygotes!
Not a week goes by without you proving it yourself over and over.
If you were honest you'd recognize any place that legalizes abortion does legalize murder but you won't because the child sacrifice must go on.
If abortion is murder, then a woman who has one should be prosecuted for first-degree murder. Right?
You can’t reason with superstition, bigotry, or belligerent ignorance.
Because you’re an idiot you assume that I’m pro-abortion when I’ve never said any such thing. Attributing a position to me and then arguing against your made up position is just mental masturbation. The progressives around here do that a lot, so you’ve got a lot in common with them.
If you were honest you would recognize that in a state where abortion has been legalized then by definition it can’t be murder.
Taxation doesn't strike me as being the same as outlawing behavior. Off the top of my head, I would guess permitting a state to outlaw behavior committed in another state violates the federalism principle that each state decides what is legal in its own state.
Is there any case law on this issue?
The Foreign Commerce Clause permits the federal government to outlaw extraterritorial behavior. There is no similar grant of power to a state outlawing extraterritorial behavior, be it international or interstate.
Floyd George was a Zygote at one time.
So were you. Look how that turned out.
There is having a bias and there is your openly jettisoning morality and honestly.
You claim everyone does it. You are wrong.