The Volokh Conspiracy
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Retribution, Deterrence, and the Case for Prosecuting Trump for Conspiring to Overturn the 2020 Election
His attempt to stay in power despite losing an election is well worthy of prosecution and punishment, on grounds of retribution and deterrence.

Donald Trump was recently indicted for his efforts to use fraud and coercion to overturn the result of the 2020 election and stay in power despite the fact that he had lost. The four counts in the indictment filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith all arise from various ways in which Trump conspired to nullify the election result through fraud and deception, including by conspiring to replace duly chosen electors with fraudulent ones, and pressuring state and federal officials - including Vice President Mike Pence - to illegally overturn election results.
Reason's Eric Boehm has a helpful summary of the charges:
The first charge is focused on the attempt, allegedly organized within the White House, to have Trump-friendly state lawmakers appoint alternate slates of electors to the Electoral College as part of a scheme that would see Trump named as the winner of states where President Joe Biden received more votes.
The second and third charges are aimed at Trump's (and his allies') behavior on and near January 6, 2021, when Congress was scheduled to certify the election results. That includes the pressure allegedly applied to Vice President Mike Pence, who refused to go along with the Trump-backed plot to discard the electoral votes from some states.
Finally, the third alleged conspiracy includes a civil rights charge that strikes at how Trump's machinations aimed to rob Americans of their right to choose the president.
More specifically, Trump is charged with:
a. A conspiracy to defraud the United States by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair, obstruct, and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the presidential election are collected, counted, and certified by the federal government, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371;
b. A conspiracy to corruptly obstruct and impede the January 6 congressional proceeding at which the collected results of the presidential election are counted and certified ("the certification proceeding"), in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(k);
c. A conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one's vote counted, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241.
It is important to recognize that Trump isn't being charged simply because he wrongly claimed he won the election. In and of itself, that is no crime. Rather, he went far beyond that and organized a wide-ranging conspiracy to overturn the result using fraud and deception, and by attempting to enlist state and federal officials to assist him. The indictment goes into the means he and his co-conspirators used, in great detail.
It's worth taking a step back and asking why we punish crimes at all. The most widely accepted reasons are retribution and deterrence. In other words, we seek to punish criminals because they deserve it due to the heinous nature of their deeds, and because it's important to deter others from engaging in similar wrongdoing.
If these are the justifications for punishment, there are many situations where inflicting it is unnecessary or unjust, even if the defendant has violated the law. That may happen if the law in question is itself unjust, or if the violation is insignificant and there is little value to deterring it. Trump's indictment by New York prosecutors earlier this year may well be an example of such a dubious case. The later federal indictment for taking and refusing to return classified documents is a much more defensible prosecution.
Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence. For the head of state in a democracy, there are few more serious crimes than using fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election. If successful, such action would transform the nation into a despotism, usually a deeply illiberal one to boot. Subversion of the republic by the very person who has a special duty to defend it is obviously deserving of severe retribution, given the extraordinarily serious nature of the crime.
It is also important to deter future presidents and other high-ranking officials from similar misconduct in the future. Here too, there is a strong case for severe punishment, given the enormous magnitude of the harm this kind of crime can cause. Severe punishment is also justified by the need for sanctions great enough to outweigh the potential gains of this kind of criminal activity in the eyes of would-be perpetrators. Becoming dictator for life is a major prize for unscrupulous power-hungry politicians. To outweigh that temptation, we need an appropriately severe punishment, one that will strike fear in the hearts of even the kinds of ruthless risk-takers who too often reach high political office.
Trump's most obvious defense to these charges is that he didn't engage in fraud and deception because he honestly believed he had won the election, and that the Democrats had "stolen" it from him. If so, one could argue he didn't deserve retribution, because he didn't know he was doing anything wrong. And, likewise, there is arguably no point to trying to deter people who don't know they are committing a crime.
But the indictment recounts extensive evidence indicating that Trump in fact knew he had lost. Among other things, it notes numerous occasions when his own advisers, law enforcement officials, and election experts told him there was no fraud anywhere near large enough to change the election result. He also could have learned he lost from the numerous court decisions rejecting his legal challenges to the election results, including some issued by judges he himself had appointed.
In addition, there are instances where Trump himself actually admitted he had lost. For example, the indictment notes an incident in which Trump berated Vice President Pence for being "too honest" after the latter noted there was no legal basis to overturn the results. The report of the January 6 Committee (pg. 20 of the executive summary) recounts how Trump told his chief of staff that "I don't want people to know we lost." That obviously implies Trump himself did know he lost, but was trying to hide that fact from the public.
Even if Trump did manage to delude himself into believing he had actually won the election, his conduct was still culpable. If I steal your valuable ring because I have persuaded myself (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that I am its true owner, I am still guilty of theft. The same logic applies here. Trump had every reason and opportunity to learn he had lost. If instead he chose to indulge in self-delusion, which he then used to justify his scheme to overturn the election, he is guilty for much the same reasons as the thief who - without any justification - imagines himself to be the rightful owner of the object he steals.
Perhaps that reasoning doesn't apply to a defendant who is simply incapable of understanding the truth, as in the case of people suffering from some types of mental illness. But Trump is not sick, just evil. Still, the option of pursuing an insanity defense is open to him, and perhaps he can attempt it at trial.
Some philosophers and legal theorists deny that either retribution or deterrence is a justifiable ground for punishment. If that's your view, I'm not going to suggest you make an exception for Trump. But if, like most people, you believe that prosecution and punishment are sometimes justified on one or both of these grounds, than this case is a particularly compelling one. Jack Smith is right to prosecute Trump over his schemes to overturn the 2020 election because the man deserves severe punishment, and because it is important to deter future leaders from following in his footsteps.
In a previous post, I have addressed claims that prosecuting Trump is an example of "banana republic" behavior, and the idea that it is wrong to go after him when others, such as Biden, Pence, and Hillary Clinton may also be guilty of wrongdoing. The points made there also apply to claims that it is wrong to prosecute Trump because President Biden's son Hunter Biden apparently got off lightly for his own offenses. Even if it is true that Hunter Biden got an unjustified sweetheart deal, that in no way justifies letting Trump off the hook for vastly more serious crimes.
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None of the alleged acts were crimes. The third alleged conspiracy is even more nonsensical than the first two.
The alleged acts do not constitute a crime. And attempting to enlist the aid of state and federal officials is merely the petition to the government for the redress of grievances.
The alleged acts are not crimes, but constitutionally protected political speech.
The same is true with the whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign, which was started by the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton). it was and is constitutionally protected speech to say that. The only criminal prosecutions that should have arose were those involving perjury, forgery, bribery, or extortion.
Another Somin post that makes the argument for stricter immigration standards.
So who are the alleged co-conspirators and will they be indicted?
The 80,000,000 who voted for "45"
We're going to need a bigger jail.
That's why the Federals just militarized the IRS and gave them $80B exta over the next few years.
They are coming for us. I royally fucked up donating to Trump's campaign twice and putting myself on their list. I'm already getting some of the Democrat IRS treatment.
Voltage!
I pay my kids each year to help with my business. Last year I paid them each $12,000. The 2022 standard deduction for filing Single is $12,950.
The IRS recently sent them letters saying they owed federal taxes on that amount and gave me about six weeks to respond, after which their assessment and penalties were permanent and unchallengeable.
From what you know about Federal taxes, does someone earning below the standard deduction owe taxes?
How did the IRS find out? did you give them a 1099?
I expect he reported the expense on his taxes.
Well that was stupid, I mean, I deduct my "Medical Marriage-a-juan-a" as a medical expense but not my "Recreational Marriag-a-juan-a" (unless it's business related, what kind of business?? Monkey Business!! OK, I never claim the Recreational Stuff, mainly because the guys that sell "Recreational" Marriage-a-Juan-a- in Georgia and Texas don't give itemized receipts.
Always did the "Gift" deduction with my daughters, if they wanted to use it for flight training that was on them.
Frank
Why would that be stupid?
I have a business, it reduces my income.
Yeah, reduces your income and apparently triggers income taxes for your kids, which is hilarious because you’re stupid. An accountant could probably have spared them that expense. And before you answer, I mean a CPA, not that jackass from behind the donut shop you gave $20 to handle your books.
Otis you fucking dumb retard.
You don't pay federal taxes on income under the standard deduction.
You are either a foreigner or a child and that's why you don't know this.
My CPA does my taxes, I’m sure it was listed as an expense.
I’ve been doing this for a few years without any problems until this year. Election Year -1.
My kids take $6k and make an IRA contribution. It was an awesome setup while we were living in an income tax-free state.
See: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/who-needs-to-file-a-tax-return
They might be saying they are self-employed -- read Publication 501.
What they'll probably get you on is the FICA.
IANAA-TINLA...
And on second thought, I would go see a tax attorney, or at least a CPA -- soonest! One of my relatives got hit with a major tax bill/fine because of what one of his customers was doing, the relative didn't technically owe the taxes -- third parties did -- but the IRS went after him because he had deeper pockets.
And while they're not quite written in English, the IRS does have all its regs published.
My CPA does my taxes. I've been doing this for years.
My kids then, in turn, make contributions to their IRA's with half the money.
Its never a problem until its a problem
Amen to that. I seem to get into IRS troubles around election years.
Especially when I give contributions to Republicans.
Voltage!
The payment for services performed by a child under 18 for work done in the parents business is not subject to fica/medicare. most likely what happened was that 1099's were issued and were matched to the childs return. There is no info on the 1099 to indicate that it is for service rendered in the parents business, therefore the IRS processing software automatically assessed the SE /fica tax.
The correct thing to do is compensate the children via wages instead of contract services. The 941's w-2 's etc have boxes to check to indicate work for parents, and/or not subject to fica.
the other point is the compensation needs to be a fair compensation for the services actually performed. Depending on their age and the complexity of the work performed, max comp is only going to be in the 12-15 per hour range. $20is going to be seriously pushing the reasonable comp for a teenager.
The IRS told them they "owed federal taxes" or "must file a tax return"?
Congratulations on your $>400,000 salary.
Oh man, I remember when I hit the 400K mark,
also remember when that was real money, If Senescent Joe's "improved" inflation of 3% stays where it is (how are they calculating that? the price of Joe's Absorbent pads??) prices will double in 23 years (see "70, rule of" should actually be "Rule of 69" but gets so M!ssundaztood (HT Pink)
Frank "Where's my Visor?"
You can say that again. How gullible does one have to be to give money to someone whose claim to fame is that he's supposedly a billionaire?
Co-Consp #1 Rudy Giuliani
Co-Consp #2 John Eastman
Co-Consp #3 Sidney Powell
Co-Consp #4 Jeffrey Clark
Co-Consp #5 Kenneth Chesebro
Co-Consp #6 currently unidentified political consultant
...and will they too be indicted?
Bumble has never heard of an unindicted co-conspirator.
Or more like he's so angry this imaginary straw is worth grasping.
Co-Conspirator #6 is obviously Patrick McGoohan
Well played, sir, well played.
Pretty sure there’s Rudy and Eastman, Jeffrey Clark and Sidney Powell. Some guess Kenneth Chesebro is the fifth. Don’t think anyone has confidently guessed the sixth yet.
Several media outlets have suggested, based on the descriptions set forth in the indictment, that co-conspirator (1) is Rudolph Giuliani, (2) is John Eastman, (3) is Sidney Powell, (4) is Jeffrey Clark and (5) is Kenneth Chesebro.
Co-conspirator (6) is a bit more murky, but my bet is Peter Navarro.
I surmise that they will be indicted in the future unless some or all reach plea/cooperation agreements, in which case they will be charged by criminal information.
I’ve seen speculation that #6 is Jim Troupis (which I find personally embarrassing as a Wisconsinland resident).
Just because you keep saying that, doesn't make it true.
(Though it might make for a nice example of what prof. Somin is talking about when he writes about a person deluding themselves into believing something that isn't true.)
Are the laws cited in the indictment all unconstitutional, I guess? Is that what you are going with?
I've taken shits that didn't stink as much as these Bullshit charges. What next? Charge "45" for calling the charges Bullshit?
Why yes! That's conspiracy to defraud obstruction of Sacred Democracy.
That's the highest crime in the Constitution! It's a hair higher than hurting the feelings of a protected class.
As applied, they appear to be. Every single one has, as part of the alleged criminal conduct, protected free speech.
> “Trump in fact knew he had lost. Among other things, it notes numerous occasions when his own advisers, law enforcement officials, and election experts told him there was no fraud anywhere near large enough to change the election result. ”
He also had advisors, officials, and election experts telling him the opposite. You’re punishing someone for believing one person instead of another.
Anyway, the real problem wasn’t “fraud”. It was “illegal changes to election administration”. For instance, if you keep the polls open an hour later in an area where one party gets a lot of votes, you can skew election results without even a hint of fraud. (This was a routine thing back in Michigan when I lived there. You could basically count on some judge finding a pretext to extend polling hours in Detroit or Flint, to harvest a few more votes, every election. Like clockwork.)
Covid was used as an excuse to make all sorts of changes to election administration without bothering to go through the legislature, or even contrary to specific directions enacted into law by the legislature. That’s not technically ‘fraud’, but it’s still cheating, even if the courts decide to sign off on it. That just makes the courts complicit.
Illegal changes to election administration is not a thing, Brett. And even if it were, state courts trump your personal take when it comes to what's illegal.
Illegal changes in election administration is absolutely a thing.
Name the law being broken, and how it applies to the facts of courts making rulings you personally really don't like.
In each case the law being broken would be the election law specifying the procedure that wasn't followed.
Judicial review of a law does not break that law, even if you disagree with the court.
I'm not a legal realist, Sarcastr0; Judges are just as capable of corruptly breaking the law as anybody else, they just do it by issuing rulings.
No like there are procedures and structures you are ignoring in your extra legal legalish analysis.
Like RFK Jr said, just because there are more thangs on Heaven and Earth than dreamt of in your Philosophy doesn't mean they aren't "Thangs"
I've seen the Hunter Biden Video (What? I have C-Span) there's definitely a "Thang" involved.
Frank "It's a Southern Thing/Thang"
So what?
The losers in any Presidential election can point to ways the winners “cheated” - and they’ll be right about some of it. Both sides do crap in every race trying to get an edge. So long as the actual votes aren’t tampered with it doesn’t affect the legitimacy of the result.
No matter how many times you say this, it won't make Brett Bellmore's determination that something was an "illegal change" any more valid than graffiti on a bathroom wall.
The changes were illegal, because the Constitution says that the legislature makes the rules for elections, and those were not done that way, but by elections officials and other bureaucrats.
The Supreme Court let the nation down by not declaring the rules changes in PA were unconstitutional, sending a signal to lower courts to stay out of the election issues.
Oh, are we now admitting that all the "stolen election" ballot stuffing and election night computer shenanigans didn't actually happen?
Now it's just "illegal changes to election administration", making the 2020 election somehow unfair...
That is not in fact what the Constitution says, nor what it means.
"Among other things, it notes numerous occasions when his own advisers, law enforcement officials, and election experts told him there was no fraud anywhere near large enough to change the election result. ”"
At least now they are admitting there WAS fraud in the 2020 election. Their position is that it was just not enough to change the election result. How do they know that since no one actually looked at the evidence provided? And what law makes it illegal to question the amount of fraud committed?
Also, Trump wasn't insisting on staying in the White House. He was packing and planning to move even as he was stating the election of Biden was fraudulent. Which I still suspect is true.
No, Trump's officials were telling him this.
What are you actually talking about? No one realistically claims a nationwide election occurs with zero instances of fraud. That’s why the indictment refers to “outcome determinative” fraud.
How do they know? I refer you to para 31(c) of the indictment, for example (emphasis added):
To recap, everyone sane acknowledges the election was not 100.0000000% perfect. This is not rocket surgery.
As to your assertion that “no one actually looked”, again you’re factually wrong.
https://www.ajc.com/politics/election/five-fraud-claims-what-investigators-found/ISF2NV2RKBF2TIEI4ULXWJFZNA/
So because Trump was at least somewhat successful at replacing anyone who told him the truth with yes-men willing to parrot his story, he gets to blame everything on his subordinates? The yes-men just happened to be jn the room, and his efforts to stuff the room had nothing to do with it?
RRR III GGG HHH TTT.
I suppose you’ll say that since Don Corleone involved his consigliere in his hit decisions, he was relying on legal advice that they were all completely legal to do. And all those hits on those who crossed him don’t have anything to do with his being at the complete mercy his subordinates, with no responsibility for anything that happened.
And when Don Carelone says the family would be better off if somebody disappeared, that’s just opinion, exercising his right to free speech. Any subsequent disapearance is entirely a coincidence.
Ok, lets ignore the lazy derogatory language. Even IF Clinton knew the Russian collusion charges were false (not a point I cede) she never actually tried to change the outcome of the election.
WHICH IS THE WHOLE FRIGGIN POINT HERE
Now, back to the article:
In addition, there are instances where Trump himself actually admitted he had lost. For example, the indictment notes an incident in which Trump berated Vice President Pence for being “too honest” after the latter noted there was no legal basis to overturn the results. The report of the January 6 Committee (pg. 20 of the executive summary) recounts how Trump told his chief of staff that “I don’t want people to know we lost.” That obviously implies Trump himself did know he lost, but was trying to hide that fact from the public.
Trump knew he lost the election. And he undertook a long and organized campaign to not only convince people that he won, but to violate their duties in order to make him President.
If there’s not serious criminal consequences in trying to overthrow the results of a fair election then you don’t have a Democracy.
So challenging elections will now be criminal going forward? Have you considered the consequences of making election challenges a crime? It would make win at any cost the most important thing. It basically legalizes fraud to win election since challenging that fraud is criminal if you don't win the challenge. Or is this just another "but Trump" exception to the administration of laws?
No one is trying to make it a crime to contest an election, so long as the contestant refrains from fraud and other crimes.
And what fraud was committed?
Crickets from Mr. Toad.
Too busy catching flies to answer.
Presenting alternative electors as though they were legitimate ones?
Not much different than impersonating a police officer. Is that covered under the 1st Amendment as well?
A trick from the Democrat playbook?
Yeah, kind of. In 1960, Hawaii participated in its first Presidential election. Nixon won the state, but a recount was conducted. The recount couldn't be finished by the deadline, so the governor certified Nixon as the winner. At the same time, Kennedy's electors declared that Kennedy was the winner, even though Nixon had been certified the winner.
As it turned out though, Kennedy won in the recount. Nixon presided over the counting of the votes (he was Eisenhower's VP), and gave the Hawaii votes to Kennedy.
A historical oddity, not really a blueprint for stealing a Presidential election.
Because it was JFK so it was fine, seriously "Folks(HT Senescent Joe", JFK nearly started WW3 (and didn't "Face Down" the Roosh-uns, he gave in like a little B-word, pulling our missiles out of Turkey) had his AG (his brother, no Nepotism (folks)) wiretap MLK Jr, stalled on Civil Rights (good thing he had a "Progressive" VP), sent the first troops to Vietnam (Good thing Goldwater lost in 64'! or we'd have had a land war in Asia) Oh, but he cut taxes and fucked Marilyn Monroe, so he was cool.
Frank
Could you try writing in English? Even for one day?
my fault you have the reading comprehension of todays College students??
So is that a no?
I forget which defective system they were, but those missiles in Turkey were bad news and it is a good thing we got them out of there.
As an aside, the lost SNARK was recently found -- in Africa.
That wasn't where it was supposed to go...
Missiles in Turkey were "Jupiter" and watta ya know, you actually are right for a change, bit of a lemon, but watta ya expect, it was made by Chrysler.
Senescent Joes been impersonating a Senator/VPOTUS and POTUS for 50 years, where's his indictment??
That requires intent to have the fake ones mistaken for the real ones, which even the indictment acknowledges isn't the case - instead, they were created to (1) preserve legal challenges, and (2) give the VP something to approve if he agreed with the fraud allegations.
No one thought the fake votes were the ones promulgated by the normal process, and that wasn't the intent.
No, actually, the indictment says that the original idea was to "preserve legal challenges," but then it just became a fraudulent scheme to pretend that they were the real electors. That nobody was fooled is a separate question from the intent.
Again: in two of the seven states where Trump tried this scheme, the electors were cautious enough to expressly say, "We're only doing this to preserve legal challenges." In the other five, they did no such thing; they claimed to be the electors.
Just as the ones in Hawaii did, IIRC.
Except that the ones in Hawaii were proven right by the recount. If Trump wanted to appoint an alternate slate of electors pending some recount, with their votes to be counted only in the event he wins the recount, criminal prosecution is massively inappropriate. In fact, some of the electors (to my knowledge), were told that their electoral votes would only be counted if there was a recount and Trump was declared the winner.
Then comes the Eastman memo, which says we don't actually care if there's a recount or some intervening legal event - Pence should count the alternate electors as a way to pressure a recount. Or just as a way to win outright.
At this point, we're no longer in Hawaii 1960 territory. We've moved into the realm of making false claims to the government.
The conduct of the Hawaii electors in 1960 was never litigated, so no legal precedent or principle was determined there. When Congress met to certify the electoral count, then-Vice-president Nixon asked for and received unanimous consent that the votes of the Democratic electors would count. https://rollcall.com/2020/10/26/we-the-people-what-happens-when-a-state-cant-decide-on-its-electors/
Oh STFU about Hawaii.
Whatever happened is irrelevant to Trump.
Look, there are probably thousands of people every year that could be prosecuted for tax evasion (likely including Trump) but very few are. And it's not because they can't be identified.
So does that mean no one can ever be prosecuted for tax evasion, and that if you are charged you get to say "My friend's grandfather did the same thing in 1983 and wasn't charged, so I get off?"
I think that's really what they mean.
But they didn't think anyone was going to be tricked into thinking those were the votes certified by the state. That's the requisite intent, and it's lacking.
They thought Pence would treat them as real during the certification and had plans to take advantage of the resulting chaos should it happen. Further, the constant stream of lies from elected officials who knew this was fake and from media companies like FOX and OAN who knew it was fake convinced a great many Americans, some of whom are in this thread, that the election was stolen and the "fake" electors were, in fact, representing the real result.
The intent was to overturn the election and appoint Trump to a second term even though those planning this knew that Trump had lost fairly.
Didn’t some of them even try to get pardons lined up?
I mean, why take chances…
Where were they presented?
Most of the bogus electors submitted falsified paperwork to the Senate and the National Archives and Records Administration.
The crime isn't making an election challenge. It's making a fraudulent election challenge. I.e. a challenge that you know is false.
By way of analogy, if I call the police and report that someone's been taken hostage, that's totally protected activity. In fact, that's one of the things you're supposed to do when someone takes a hostage. Call the police.
But what if I call the police on someone who I know does not have a hostage? If I tell the police that some famous streamer has taken a hostage, because I think it'd be funny to see a streamer get arrested (or killed), I've committed a pretty serious crime.
The swatter could retort "Oh so now every unsuccessful police call is illegal?" But that's not persuasive. You can call the police and be wrong. You can't call the police and intentionally lie to them.
Fraudulent election challenges are protected by the First Amendment.
The whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign was also protected by the first Amendment, except for the proven instances of perjury and forgery.
What differentiates a fraudulent election challenge from a fraudulent tax filing or a fraudulent police report?
As for Russiagate, that entire thing happened under Trump. Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy AG nominated by Trump and confirmed by the Republican Senate, picked Robert Mueller, FBI director under Bush and Obama, to investigate. The deck was stacked in Trump's favor beyond all belief - in comparison, the guy who is investigating Hunter Biden was appointed by Trump.
Shouldn't Biden get a special counsel chosen by his AG, and a special counsel who used to work for Obama? That would mirror the Mueller report. Seems a bit unfair that Hunter Biden is being investigated by a person appointed from the opposite party, no?
There is a special counsel looking into Biden's possession of classified documents although you wouldn't know it since Robert Hur is a name that can't be mentioned.
Robert Hur was appointed by Trump to be the US Attorney for Maryland.
Meanwhile, Jack Smith was never appointed by a Democrat to be anything. Robert Mueller, in contrast, had been appointed to be FBI Director by a Republican.
Seems like Republicans investigate Democrats and Republicans investigate Republicans. Add on the fact that Trump's getting judged by a judge he appointed to the bench and it really seems like the Democrats are getting the raw end of the deal. Hunter Biden is getting judged by a Trump appointee,
Would we be okay with Trump getting judged by a Biden appointee?
"Attorney General Merrick Garland announced the appointment of Robert Hur as the special counsel that will investigate the discovery of classified materials that may have been mishandled following President Biden’s time as vice president."
https://thehill.com/homenews/3810857-who-is-robert-hur-the-special-counsel-investigating-bidens-classified-documents/
I see you have an advanced degree in obfuscating and dissembling.
Yeah, Merrick Garland picked a Republican-appointee to investigate Biden. That avoids the appearance of bias - Trump had enough faith in the guy to make him the US Attorney for Maryland. It'd be pretty crazy to say that he was biased against Trump.
However, for Russiagate, Rod Rosenstein picked a Republican-appointee, Robert Mueller, to investigate Trump. How's that fair? Republicans investigating Republicans?
Trump made poor hiring decisions...
Why do you find it so important to identify these people by the political label of their appointers?
Is it because you assume that these government prosecutors and judges will act partisanly in favor of their patrons?
That's what other people will assume. If I paint my car yellow and write "Zach's Taxi Service" on the side, people are gonna think it's a taxi. Even if I know it's not, I may not want to create that appearance.
When we're appointing people to investigate, shouldn't we avoid the appearance of political influence? If Republicans are going to investigate Trump, Democrats should investigate Biden - no?
You think most people assume our Justice system operates in a partisan fashion based on whose the President, therefore we should have investigations by appointees from opposite parties?
Are we pretending that "NeverTrumpers" are not a thing, or that there's any corresponding movement on the Democratic side? The GOP establishment treated Trump like an unwelcome invader from day one.
Brett, I'd posit the real unifying and exclusionary theme is around foreign policy.
Are you pro endless wars and boundless foreign policy political grift for you, your families and friends, or are you America First.
Foreign Policy is what unites the UniParty and the entirety of DC. It's also what positions them against the citizenry. That lense explains so much behavior we see, I'm confident there's something to it.
Are you pretending that NeverTrumpers are a thing? They were an infinitesimal part of the conservative moment.
The GOP establishment did oppose Trump because they thought he was going to lose. That is not remotely the same thing as being NeverTrump. The minute the election results came in on 11/8/16, the GOP establishment was all in on Trump. And with a few sporadic exceptions — such as immediately after the 1/6 coup attempt¹ — they remained, and remain, all in on him.
¹For several glorious hours, they actually admitted how awful Trump was, before returning to their usual cultlike Dear Leader Can Do No Wrong state.
The political nature of election challenges.
Lying to win an election can not be a crime.
No, but lying to take over the country after you've *lost* an election can be.
Now do lying to take over a country by "winning" an election.
Why? That's (somehow) not what Trump is being accused of.
No. that's what Biden did.
Yes, that's what Trump fraudulently claimed.
Fraudulent election challenges are protected by the First Amendment.
WTF???
Go back on holiday.
Seeing steaming nonsense like that is certainly making me wish I was still on holiday, that's true.
Your homeland and your adopted country have enough problems to keep you occupied.
At least in the Netherlands and in the UK they don't let politicians within 100 miles of the vote counting or certifying.
Curious. Who does?
Various civil servants. Different countries have different systems, but they all have in common that people who owe their jobs to voting shouldn’t have a role in the counting of those votes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Returning_officer
Yeah, we're very much an outlier in terms of election administration and security, and NOT in a good way.
Just like in PA where they don't let Republican watchers observe the counting.
Martin,
The Trumpoid echo chamber is LOUD today.
Better to just ignore them.
You'll never convince them and the rest of us don't need convincing that Trump is guilty
"Fraudulent election challenges are protected by the First Amendment."
Is that so? Do you have any authority for that preposterous claim? Please specifically cite the applicable decision(s).
Still waiting, Michael Ejercito.
Do you have any authority for your claim that “Fraudulent election challenges are protected by the First Amendment”?
Perhaps if you make fraudulent election challenges as required by your sincere religious beliefs.
So if an election challenge fails was it fraudulent? As long as the challenge is conducted through the legal process why should it be a crime? Remember in 2016 the election challenge was based solely upon the phony Steele Dossier with at least Hilary Clinton and her inner circle knowing that it was based on unvetted opposition research ( and that is putting it in it's best light). They even used that dossier to get a special counsel appointed. Trump at least was attempting to use the legal process to challenge the election.
'Remember in 2016 the election challenge was based solely upon the phony Steele Dossier'
Which challenge was that?
The whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians"®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign.
You mean the investigation by DOJ officials that resulted in the Mueller Report which concluded that Russia attempted to interfere in the election on Trump's behalf and that Trump, having lied about multiple Russian connections and communications, was aware of it and at a minimum open to accepting the assistance?
Nige, born too late. Stalin would have loved you.
Nige's are created, not born
Mr Bumble, just saying random stuff.
Ejercito spews out nonsense, Nige makes a perfectly factual and rational comment dissembling that nonsense, and you suddenly think that's some awesome own of Nige.
It's honestly kinda adorable, like watching a puppy fall over and flail on the floor helplessly and then popping up triumphant thinking that it's successfully played fetch.
More like watching a puppy eat its own shit (I'm a Dog Lover, they do that, it's adorable)
Nige : "You mean the investigation by DOJ officials that resulted in the Mueller Report"
Or maybe he means the report by the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee which concluded this :
"The report concluded that the Kremlin "engaged in an aggressive, multifaceted effort to influence, or attempt to influence" the 2016 election, and that some Trump associates were keen on help from Russia. It said the Trump campaign, with many affiliates who had no government experience, were easy targets for foreign influence. The committee also highlighted the role of former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort, who was convicted of conspiracy and fraud charges during the Mueller inquiry. Manafort: Trump's former campaign chair
Manafort's contact with Russian oligarchs and intelligence affiliates - namely Konstantin Kilimnik- and his access to Mr Trump "created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump Campaign," the committee alleges.
The committee also reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin was behind the WikiLeaks effort to hack Democratic Party officials and leak information to damage Hillary Clinton's campaign."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53830374
A propaganda campaign is not an election challenge.
Anyway, Hillary immediately conceded and never challenged Trump's victory. It's hard to challenge an election after conceding. (But not impossible! See e.g. 2000.)
She had her Fusion GPS friends coordinating with the Democrats in the FBI, DOJ, and various other IC agencies to hamstring and undermine President Trump for years instead.
Voltage!
grb, don't embarrass yourself. Again.
Your extreme low-information status doesn't make me a liar.
Just your lies.
BravoCharlieDelta : “….. doesn’t make me a liar …..”
Dude, you bragged about being a systematic liar. You gushed over your cleverness lying. There’s often ambiguity whether a giver right-winger is (b) stupid, (c) gullible & misinformed, or (d) lying.
Often it’s a puzzler to decide B, C, or D.
But with you? Sincere & stupid is no longer on the table. Lying is now the safe call
grb,
If lying about my claims makes you feel better, I won't stop you.
I understand at your age there isn't much good in your life left or any hopes and dreams, for much other than for a peaceful, long sleep.
I won't take this away from you.
Objection. Nothing in that excludes the "stupid" option.
She called him illegitimate repeatedly during his term in office.
And Obama's people openly spied on Trump for years in office.
She called him illegitimate repeatedly during his term in office.
Citations.
Obama’s people openly spied on Trump for years in office.
On Trump himself, eh? Lets see that as well.
Presumably that is based on not understanding the difference between "Obama's people" and the DOJ/FBI, and not understanding the difference between "spied on" and investigated.
More important, irrelevant.
Legitimacy is a political metric, not a legal one. In 2016 Trump solidly lost the popular vote. He almost certainly would have lost the EC vote as well, except the very public investigation into Clinton's emails (that never resulted in charges against her), including the public reopening of the investigation by Comey days before the election in clear violation of DOJ policy.
Meanwhile, the investigation into Trump's dealings with Russia never went public until after the election.
That's a pretty blatant double standard, and solid evidence that Trump would have lost a fairly fought campaign. Hence, the political claim that Trump's presidency was illegitimate.
So what if she called him illegitimate? That doesn't mean she won the election. It just means Trump presidency is outside the norms of the regular order of polite society and therefore ought to be scorned. See also Illegitimate Child.
Which was practically Trump's campaign slogan. He should've taken it as a compliment.
The thing is, Trump's sycophants are convinced that the only thing people thought was wrong with Trump was "mean tweets" — a phrase they used mockingly and ironically. So Hillary saying mean things about Trump, to them, is a whatabout.
Let’s reason by analogy. Someone reports a bomb in an airport. Police investigate and find there was never a bomb. Is this criminal?
Maybe! If the person knew that there was no bomb, and intentionally lied in their report, then they committed a crime. If they made an honest mistake, there’s no crime. Intent to defraud is what you need – you need to make a false statement hoping that someone else will rely on the falsity.
Applying that to election challenges, we can see that successful election challenges are always fine (just like calling in a real bomb). Failed election challenges are likewise fine if you didn’t intentionally lie. The only prohibited activity is intentional deceit. Which mirrors pretty closely our ideas about falsely reporting things to the government – swatting (calling the police and intentionally lying about an ongoing violent crime), for example, is a crime, even though mistakenly reporting a hostage situation is not a crime.
This isn’t a particularly difficult line to police. I’ve never met someone who refused to call 911 in an emergency for fear they would be arrested for making a false report. Have you?
Speaking of bombs, how is the FBI doing in finding out who planted the bombs on Jan. 5/6" Was it Trump? Will yet another indictment be forthcoming?
Well, they tracked the guy who left them through multiple modes of transport, identified the subway card he used, and even identified the license plate on the car he got into, but somehow this wasn't enough to identify HIM. It's puzzling.
Pipe bomb investigation
Well, if the MetroCard was bought with cash, and the vehicle had a stolen license plate on it (or was itself stolen), then it might be possible not to trace it.
Sure, but they're still serious leads.
Note how these things work in MAGAworld: insurrection-adjacent Jim Jordan writes a letter, citing a Washington Times story, quoting a disgruntled former FBI agent, and Brett turns this all into fact with not the slightest bit of skepticism, because it fits his conspiratorial worldview.
You're just fouling off all the pitches today, huh?
"As long as the challenge is conducted through the legal process why should it be a crime? Remember in 2016 the election challenge was based solely upon the phony Steele Dossier with at least Hilary Clinton and her inner circle knowing that it was based on unvetted opposition research ( and that is putting it in it’s best light)."
Uh, who challenged the 2016 election? In what forum? Who adjudicated any such challenge, and when?
Please be specific.
But if they are filming a movie outside your house and you see someone get tossed into the trunk of a car that speeds away, you are absolutely within your rights to make a 911 call.
This is a great analogy, though maybe not the one you imagined.
The movie set is cluttered and chaotic. You'll *know* it's a movie being filmed because of all the cameras, booms, trailers, and mobs of people trampling your lawn. It's obvious it's a movie to even the willfully blind. So, if you make the 911 call, the police are going to be very cross with you and you'll likely be in some legal jeopardy depending on whether they think you maliciously "swatted" the film crew.
That is a great analogy for Trump's false claims because of how openly stupid he and his co-conspirators were. Remember all the "Kraken" jokes as Sydney Powell filed legal challenges across multiple states?
'So challenging elections will now be criminal going forward?'
In the sense that, rhetorcally, Republicans will treat any effort to challenge an election as equivalent to or worse than Trump’s behaviour, and I expect when in power they will do so in terms of laws and enforcement. Their rationale will be ‘Now look what you made me do.’
So when Democrats set the precedent of charging their political rivals with crimes Republicans should just ignore it? Why should only one side be held to a standard when the other side violates that standard?
Oh no, Republicans should definitely prosecute Democrats whenever they commit a crime. No one is claiming otherwise.
And therein lies the rub. Neither Republicans nor Democrats should be prosecuting anyone. Justice should not be political.
It isn't.
"Republicans should definitely prosecute Democrats whenever they commit a crime."
"It isn’t."
How does this square?
People who commit crimes should be prosecuted.
The "it" referred to the "justice" in your comment. As in: Justice isn't political.
So when the Democrats challenge an election and lose would that count as criminal?
That depends... is their claim fraudulent? Are they obviously lying? Are they attempting to use the court system as part of conspiracy to overturn a fair election result and install their candidate as President?
If so, then yes, charge them and put them in jail.
They're almost certainly using a "but Trump" standard, but Somin hasn't thought the consequences through beyond getting Trump.
Not that it'll change the mind of those who have already made up their minds. But if we do this and allow such a use of the fraud statute this way, everyone is going to regret it, including those who hate Trump.
Somin hasn’t thought the consequences through beyond getting Trump.
Except of course for about half of the actual blog post.
No, that really sounds more like "get Trump", than it does "consequences of establishing that this sort of prosecution is legitimate".
The only forward looking part of the OP was the talk about deterring future similar conduct. The problem is that the conduct he wants to deter is awfully specific, and doesn't include the prosecutor's conduct.
the conduct he wants to deter is awfully specific
So you’re saying that nobody but Trump will ever try to steal an election? That’s not much of a vote of confidence for the guy you (presumably) voted for twice.
No, I'm saying that he didn't try to steal an election, so far as I can see, for conventional values of "steal". He was throwing shit against the wall to see if it would stick, and urging people in ministerial roles to exercise discretion in his favor, and both of those are perfectly conventional parts of our political/legal system, even if they shouldn't be.
Speak to the indictment, not this gauzy zone of speculation and vibes not laws.
'Throwing shit against a wall' is a metaphor, not an argument or a defence. He actually threw condiments.
both of those are perfectly conventional parts of our political/legal system
Name someone (more recently than Watergate) who did what Trump did.
(Because yes, Kennedy definitely did steal his election.)
If you mean "what Trump did" to imply "stealing" an election that would be Al Gore.
Specifically what Trump did? Because Gore certainly pulled some dubious shit in Florida. I suppose you can argue it was OK because he had the state supreme court as a co-conspirator, but he was absolutely trying to steal that election.
He was trying to *win* an election, via a recount of a messy voting system. Didn't Trump get multiple recounts? Didn't most of them end up losing him votes? He's not being prosecuted for getting recounts.
He was trying to steal the election. He waited until just before the end of the period when candidates were entitled to request recounts, (So that Bush wouldn't have time to do the same.) and then requested recounts in four high population counties where he'd done particularly well.
Recounts typically replicate vote ratios, while increasing vote totals. By recounting only places where he'd done especially well, while both his and Bush's totals would go up, he was hoping that the increase in his vote total over Bush's would be enough to push him over the edge state-wide even if he was actually the state wide loser.
If he's just wanted a more accurate count, he'd have asked for a state-wide recount. But that would likely not have helped him, as it would have preserved the existing ratio of votes.
Of course, while this trick DID improve his vote count a bit, it didn't improve it enough, and he'd run out the time for candidate requested recounts. That's when he started getting the state supreme court involved, forcing recounts that state law made discretionary on the SoS's part, using counting guidelines that the Supreme court found 7-2 violated equal protection.
None of this was an effort to find the real winner. It was all designed to find that Gore was the 'winner' regardless of who had actually won the state.
All of this is confused as to both the timeline and the applicable laws, which is par for the course for Brett. Among other things, there was no such thing as a "state-wide recount." One had to ask for recounts on a county-by-county basis.
'He was trying to steal the election'
No, he wasn't. You are making shit up and throwing it against the wall.
"He waited until just before the end of the period when candidates were entitled to request recounts..."
So, you're saying he was entitled to ask for the recount that he ask for in the counties he asked for them in? And he lost.
Notice the conspicuous absence of a riot at the capital that year? Lack of fake electors? No proffered legal theories for how the VP (himself) can choose to ignore state approved electors? No cops beaten by US flags and fire extinguishers? The total absence of barricades to protect Congress? No death toll?
But, you know, they're exactly the same, amirite?
Fun fact:
Not only did more legal voters go out and attempt to cast a vote for Gore in Florida. (This should pretty uncontroversial)
But a statewide recount would have counted more votes for Gore.
This is actually a really important point to bring up. For all of the GOP's freakout over losing an election they clearly lost, Democrats were extremely accepting of losing an election they probably won.
...except the Dems weren't seeking a statewide recount and fought the election until the SC shut them down.
A state-wide recount using a counting standard nobody had proposed to use. They looked at all the ways the votes could have been counted, and then declared that the one way Gore would have won was obviously the only correct way to do it...
The Florida court ordered a state-wide recount, and the SCOTUS shut them down.
I'm not saying that Gore should have been made President, the election was fought by the rules of the day, butterfly ballots, faulty felon lists, and all. And the right decision or not SCOTUS did have the jurisdiction to shut down the recounts.
But it's instructive to see the extent that Democrats accepted that extremely unfair outcome, while Republicans are whining far more over an election they clearly, and fairly, lost.
Brett — broadly speaking I agree that Gore’s position was wrong in Florida, but what if any *fraud* did his campaign supposedly commit? As I recall, the controversy was over the construction of Florida’s election statutes and all of Gore’s moves consisted of petitioning courts. I think his position on the law expressed to those courts was wrong but it certainly wasn’t frivolous, much less fraudulent. (Since the controversy was about construing the law, I'm not sure how he *could* have committed fraud...aside from making up fake cases to cite, maybe.)
You know, I keep saying this: "Fraud" is only one of many forms of cheating. So stop demanding that he have committed, specifically, "fraud". He tried to cheat.
As I related above, what he attempted was selective recount designed to put him over the top even if Bush were the actual winner. The state-wide recount was only desperate plan B after that didn't work, and it is no accident that it was being pursued in a manner that violated EP. Only an EP violating recount gave him a good chance of 'winning'.
Though if you want "fraud", it's rather telling that the Palm Beach authorities decided, after the "Brooks Brothers riot", that if they couldn't recount outside of the sight of election monitors, there wasn't any point in continuing the recount.
Now, why would they think only an unwitnessed recount was worth doing?
You keep ignoring the law in favor of these false equivalences. No textualism from Brett, not today!
Today all things are the same, if you squint just right. Which makes this indictment invalid.
How much you will contort from the usual Brett tropes to defend T.
Like I said, I think Gore was wrong on the law and some of his tactics were underhanded, and if you want to call that an attempt at "stealing" then in a metaphorical sense I wouldn't disagree with you.
But as far as I'm aware, Gore and his campaign did not go about trying to gain advantage by lying en masse to federal/state authorities about what happened in the 2000 election. That seems like a very strong basis for the DOJ to treat Trump and Gore differently.
urging people in ministerial roles to exercise discretion in his favor, and both of those are perfectly conventional parts of our political/legal system, even if they shouldn’t be.
People in ministerial roles having discretion is sometimes essential, as are the tools to punish people when they abuse that discretion (or attempt to coerce others to).
Trump's complaints about Pence being too honest show that:
a) He knew he lost the election (ie, Pence would need to be dishonest to follow his instructions).
b) He was encouraging/coercing Pence to use his Ceremonial role to fraudulently award Trump the Electoral College votes.
That seems like a pretty conventional value of "steal" for stealing an election.
It's also a conventional value of abusing ministerial roles in Washington, though, which is what I meant by it being a perfectly conventional part of our political/legal system, though it shouldn't be.
Really? Do you have any other examples of federal officials inventing election fraud in an attempt to block the peaceful transfer of power?
It's telling that you had to make the request so utterly specific. Why not require that the malefactor have the initials "D.T." while you're at it?
The peaceful transfer of power is pretty much the entire point of democracy. So I'm not sure what previous abuse of ministerial roles makes you think that Trump's actions are anything but an extreme outlier.
Everyone does it so when someone does it to subvert an election and take power directly, that's totally cool?
Sorry... misspelled "coup."
Missed this howler. People in ministerial roles by definition cannot exercise discretion. "Ministerial" is literally the opposite of "discretion."
It is telling that Smith incorrectly described Pence's role as ceremonial, not ministerial, the correct term. I doubt Nixon in 1960, Gore in 2000, Pence in 2020, or even Harris in 2024 would have described there role as merely ceremonial.
Perhaps Smith isn't comfortable having to dig too deeply into the latitude of a ministerial role, not that it can be avoided if it goes to trial.
This joke just keeps rolling!
Why have a democracy if the VP, through the "latitude" granted by their "ministerial role" can just declare the losing candidate the next POTUS?
Well, now I didn't say that did i?
But Nixon in 60, Gore in 2000 did make rulings as the president of the Senate, to be sure the rulings, if challenged required a majority of the Senate to confirm, but that is hardly just a ceremonial role.
Brett Bellmore : “He was throwing shit against the wall to see if it would stick, and urging people in ministerial roles to exercise discretion in his favor”
For a Brett Bellmore comment, this is surprisingly close to being honest. Let’s break it down :
1. “He was throwing shit against the wall.”
As in, he was making noise about “fraud” while not giving the slightest damn whether it was true or false, creditable or absurd, proved or disproved. As in, he would make one set of wild accusations to a cheering MAGA crowd one day, and feed the next day’s group an entirely different load of bullshit. As in, he didn’t feel the slightest obligation to offer a consistent factual case for his claim. Just creating noise was enough.
2. “…. and urging people in ministerial roles to exercise discretion in his favor ….”
As in, Georgia’s Secretary of State would “find 1,780 votes”. Arizona’s Secretary of State would “find” the votes to steal that state’s election. Michigan Republicans would “find” grounds to cancel their vote results. States would “find” fake electors adequate grounds to overturn the election in their state houses. Trump-appointed judges and Justices would “find” vacuous fraud allegations reason enough to overturn votes. Mike Pence would “find” non-existent grounds to cancel certification. The U.S. House would “find” that reason enough to intervene in the election.
All that – per Brett – was just people exercising discretion in Trump’s favor. And they didn’t need a credible case for fraud. They didn’t need evidence consistent from one huckster speech to the next. As Brett so graciously concedes, all any corrupt politician needed was shit splattered on the wall to provide cover. That was Trump’s thinking as well.
You can see this whole process clearly in the Trump scheme to get DOJ to issue letters to states suggesting they postpone certification or void election results altogether. Georgia in particular was a target. The justification these letters would provide was a DOJ “investigation” into voting fraud that didn’t exist. But that fact didn’t trouble Trump. After all, a wholly imaginary DOJ inquiry was just more of Brett’s “shit on the wall” – the perfect excuse for crooked politicians to follow Trump’s bidding. Egged on by Jeffery Clarke, Trump pressured DOJ head Jeffery Rosen to pretend an investigation was underway. Per the indictment, Trump told Rosen:
“Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen”
"As in, Georgia’s Secretary of State would “find 1,780 votes”."
I find the insistence that Trump asking people to look for something is obviously him asking them to fabricate it rather tedious at this point. It only looks like a reasonable interpretation because you start out assuming he must be up to no good.
We know it was, because the Georgia officials patiently explained to him that the votes didn't exist — that (as quoted above) there were 2 dead voters, not thousands, that there were not thousands of people who moved out of state and voted — and Trump said "I don't care; find them anyway."
WaPo transcript-> Ctrl+F-> "find them anyway"
Phrase not found
"I don't care"-> 3 hits. None close to your "quote" though. Why lie?
Maybe, just maybe, you should actually read the transcript, instead of relying on the CNN/Vox rundown. Really, go read it. Trump never tells Raffensperger to "find" the votes in a way that suggests manifesting them out of whole cloth. It's clear that Trump and his team (especially Trump) believe that Raffensperger just isn't actually looking, and if he would just open his eyes, he would easily see at least 11,000 out of (what Trump alleges is) a much larger number (50,000-400,000 variously) of bad votes.
It's really not that complicated.
No, I don't mean the 'deterring others from making similar claims' consequences.
Like Somin, you don't realize the implications of what is happening here. I'm referring to the legal and precedential consequences of utilizing federal fraud and obstruction of proceedings statutes to criminalize Trump's conduct. Trump is lawfully permitted to challenge election results in the court of public opinion. Asking others to protest election results- even if he knows that those results are accurate- is constitutionally protected. Asking people to protest Congressional proceedings in a lawful manner is also constitutionally protected, yet SCO Smith has charged Trump under both.
Somin doesn't see the massive can of worms that this abuse of federal law opens up. It's surprising to see Somin welcome the demolition of the 1st Amendment in a "but Trump" crusade, but he'll rue the day when this gets used against his preferred politicians.
SCP Smith has contorted the fraud statute into an constitutional vehicle to get Trump. He should have probably have learned his lesson the last time he tried to zealously use creative interpretations of fraud statutes, but it looks like he either didn't learn his lesson or he doesn't care. His conviction of Gov. McDonnell was overturned 9-0, and I suspect we'll see something like that at the end of US v Trump.
He is, and nobody is saying otherwise.
It is, and nobody is saying otherwise.
It is, and nobody is saying otherwise.
I'm not sure what you mean by "under", but Trump isn't being prosecuted for any of the things you listed there.
Fraud is not now, nor has it ever been, protected speech under the 1st Amendment.
I'm not sure what a prosecution for corruption has to do with anything, but I'll just note that a prosecutor does not "convict" anyone, the judge & jury do. It is the court's decision (specifically, the judgment of the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals) that was overturned in McDonnell v. United States.
> I’m not sure what you mean by “under”, but Trump isn’t being prosecuted for any of the things you listed there.
Actually, he is being prosecuted for that. Trump is indicted for corruptly obstructing congressional proceeding, and defrauding the united states in the counting of electoral votes.
How did Trump do that? According to Smith, Trump did it by challenging the election and saying that he won. I struggle to see how you can square the assertion that Trump is not being charged for challenging a federal election with SCO Smith’s fact pattern that says that the acts that Trump did that were crimes included challenging a federal election.
> Fraud is not now, nor has it ever been, protected speech under the 1st Amendment.
Calling speech ‘fraud’ does not make it so. Fraud has a very specific meaning in both the law and under 1st amendment precedent.
*Actual* fraud is the taking of money or something of value, or misrepresenting yourself so you can take money or something of value.
Contrast that with the SCO’s version of fraud: getting people to agree with your political position even though you know you’re wrong. This is a very, very dangerous game that SCO Smith is playing at. SCO Smith’s attempt to distinguish Trump out of the protections of the 1st Amendment is not going to be received well on appeal.
> I’m not sure what a prosecution for corruption has to do with anything,
McDonnell was charged under 18 USC 1343 and 1349, which are federal fraud statutes.
> but I’ll just note that a prosecutor does not “convict” anyone
You’re right. Smith *obtained* a conviction from a jury. But that nitpickery doesn’t change my point: The Supreme Court has been very, very adamant that prosecutors can’t distort statutes like SCO Smith did in McDonnell’s case.
Specifically, the Court said in McDonnell that these kinds of laws have to be specific on the conduct that is illegal lest creative prosecutors sweep up protected 1st Amendment activity. As the Supreme Court pared back McDonnell’s conviction, it also reaffirmed this principle over the past 30-something years.
The latest case where a conviction of fraud based on prosecutors expanding the statute in unconstitutional ways was overturned just a few months ago.
Which case was that?
Percoco v United States is the case. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/598/21-1158/#tab-opinion-4738589
It was a case where Manhattan prosecutors convicted one of Gov Cuomo’s former aides of bribery and fraud, and to obtain that conviction the government used an unconstitutional jury instruction that had a broad reading of what constitutes fraud.
The Court unanimously reversed the 2nd Circuit’s bad precedent on what constitutes fraud under 18 USC § 343 and § 349. In doing so, the Court reaffirmed it’s precedent in 2010’s Skilling and 1987’s McNally in which the court said that if Congress wants to prohibit things beyond financial or property fraud, it needs to clearly create a law that does that.
The current Court is much more textualist today than it was in 1987 or even 2010. The major questions doctrine- along with the 14th Amendment’s requirement against vague laws- requires that laws have specificity. In the aftermath of Biden’s student forgiveness scheme crashing and burning at SCOTUS, it’s not hard to see the Court requiring specificity in criminal statutes.
Regarding 18 USC § 371- the section that Trump is charged under- we see a very similar pullback from vague attempts at prosecution. SCOTUS hasn’t had a chance to address § 371 since 1924(!), but even lower courts have pulled away from broad readings of the section, such as 1989’s Minarik out of the 4th Circuit. In that case, a conviction was overturned because §371 as interpreted by the prosecutors was unconstitutionally vague as to what conduct was unlawful and what wasn’t.
Turning § 371 into a vehicle to get Trump when the Court has been paring back excessive fraud prosecutions and expansive executive readings of statutes when there’s a clear 1st Amendment right to lobby Congress is a quick ride to getting a conviction overturned.
"SCOTUS hasn’t had a chance to address § 371 since 1924(!)"
Really? What about Tanner v. United States, 483 U.S. 107 (1987); Dennis v. United States, 384 U.S. 855 (1966); United States v. Johnson, 383 U.S. 169 (1966); Bridges v. United States, 346 U.S. 209 (1953); Glasser v. United States, 315 U.S. 60 (1942)?
And there are plenty of circuit court decisions more recent than 1924 upholding convictions under § 371, including ones post-dating Minarik.
I don't even know tylertusta is pretending about the significance of the year 1924 is supposed to be. "This statute has been around for a long time without sufficient controversy requiring SCOTUS to address it" is a bizarre argument against employing it.
His citations to "18 USC 343 and 349" refer to a DUI statute and a non-existent statute, respectively. I think he means 1343 and 1349 — the wire fraud statute and related matters — but that's a different statute with different requirements, and has zero to do with 371. Percoco was about the jury instructions required to convict someone who wasn't a government official under 1343. That's utterly unrelated to this discussion, given that Trump was a government official at all relevant times.
Did you just do a case citation search and pasted whatever you found, regardless of whether it's actually relevant? Because that's what it looks like you did.
Well, I did your work for you. You're wrong about these being 371 cases.
- Glasser v United States was about the 6th Amendment's right to an unconflicted attorney, and whether women can serve on juries.
- Tanner v United States was a case about whether a juror could be replaced due to being drunk.
- US v Johnson, the case was about the speech and debate clause, and whether that provides protection against criminal inquiry. The Court said that it does and dismissed the § 371 charge without addressing it any further.
- Bridges v United States was about whether an indictment was timely.
Of all of the cases you copypasta'd, only one actually pretends to address § 371: Dennis v United States. However, in that case, the Court affirmed their conviction essentially because they were communists. Furthermore, this case doesn't actually address the issue that I'm talking about: expansive interpretations of what constitutes fraud being pared back. Here, the defendants filed knowingly false documents with the government, separately implicating themselves in § 1001 false statements.
And there are plenty of circuit court decisions more recent than 1924 upholding convictions under § 371, including ones post-dating Minarik.
I never said that there weren't. Did those courts' upholding of convictions use expansive readings of what constitutes 'impairing, obstructing, or defeating the lawful function of government?' that includes otherwise protected 1st Amendment Speech?
This statute has been around for a long time without sufficient controversy requiring SCOTUS to address it” is a bizarre argument against employing it.
When did I say that? I was saying that the Court hasn't had an opportunity to rein in expansive readings of 371, and that's true.
I think he means 1343 and 1349 — the wire fraud statute and related matters — but that’s a different statute with different requirements, and has zero to do with 371
My apologies; I don't why I cut off the 1 on those.
But you're wrong about it having zero to do with § 371 as the constitutional principles are the same: prosecutors can't use broadly written fraud statutes. SCO Smith's use of 371 clearly implicates the right to free speech and the right to petition the government. Indeed, SCO Smith's problem is a chicken-and-the-egg scenario. He's welcome to make his case, but as soon as he starts talking about how it was fraud for Trump to lobby Congresscritters, he's sunk.
That’s utterly unrelated to this discussion
The government tried Cuomo's aide as if he was in government, and they used an expansive interpretation of what constitutes fraud. The government was smacked down accordingly.
I look forward to your reply.
My apologies again. Reason's website keeps going down. I meant to edit my comment on 371 some more. Here's what I meant to say after the edit:
But you're wrong about it having zero to do with § 371 as the constitutional principles are the same: prosecutors can't use broadly written fraud statutes. SCO Smith's use of 371 clearly implicates the right to free speech and the right to petition the government, as Smith himself acknowledges in his indictment. Indeed, SCO Smith's problem is a chicken-and-the-egg scenario: You technically have a right to challenge an election, but if the government decides that the election was free and fair after the fact, then you're now on the hook for defrauding the government through what it considers to be frivolous petitions.
And whom decides that? Why, the winner of the election you protested, of course!
He did not "zealously use creative interpretations" of anything to prosecute McDonnell. He used the ordinary, accepted interpretation of the statute. The trial court and the appellate court saw no problem with it, and neither did the jury. Then the Supreme Court later narrowed the statute. Which is the Supreme Court's prerogative, but it does not reflect badly on lower courts (let alone lawyers arguing in lower courts) when the Supreme Court announces a new rule that varies from the one that everyone had been applying.
No.
No.
This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
More like simpleton answers...
How effective will deterrence be if Trump is convicted on any or all counts, gets released pending appeal, and runs for president while the case makes its step-by-step way to the Supreme Court? Could a convicted Trump go to the Supreme Court to use habeas corpus to get immediate release?
If that happens, will it matter what the Court decides sometime during Trump's second term? Even if the Court decided to let a conviction stand, does anyone suppose he would then be sent to prison as a sitting president? What will happen to the public life of the nation if Trump gets convicted, released, runs for president, and wins, all during the pendency of an appeal?
Even if it made conviction harder to obtain, seems like a wiser charging decision would have included a charge—insurrection or treason—with power to end Trump's political career unless he escaped conviction. Protracted uncertainty about Trump's political status will serve neither deterrence, nor the nation's need to end its dangerous political crisis.
I am not a lawyer. Can the legal experts here reassure me that my concerns are ill-founded?
"What will happen to the public life of the nation if Trump gets convicted, released, runs for president, and wins, all during the pendency of an appeal?"
Your co-idealists have decided to play a very stupid game. They will no doubt be shocked when they receive an equally stupid prize.
'Look who you're making us vote for.'
There is no deterrence in the charges, in fact it makes it even more imperative for Trump to win.
Its pretty easy calculus, if he wins he pardons himself, because he's essentially been pardoned by the people.
Of course if he loses, I doubt he will go to jail anyway, Biden wouldn't like that precedent.
Trump 2024: Help Me Get Away With Crimes!
Senescent Joe 2024 (Like he'll still be alive in November 2024, much less senescent) "Help me and my Drug Addict Son keep committing crimes!!!"
Frank "Nige-Bot still confused about options for Pawn moves"
"Could a convicted Trump go to the Supreme Court to use habeas corpus to get immediate release?"
No. The initial determination of bail pending appeal following conviction and sentencing would be made by the District Court under 18 U.S.C. § 3143(b). Appeal would be to the Court of Appeals pursuant to Fed.R.App.P. 9(b). Trump could seek certiorari before judgment under Supreme Court Rule 11, which will be granted only upon a showing that the case is of such imperative public importance as to justify deviation from normal appellate practice and to require immediate determination in the Supreme Court.
Unfortunately your concerns are not at all ill-founded.
Let’s say that somehow between now and November 2024 Trump is convicted of a major crime. Unlikely, but let’s say it happens.
If he's elected, his conviction’s out the window. The particulars are unimportant; that's what's going to happen. No judge in this country’s ordering a President or President-elect hauled off to prison.
If he loses, then he's got problems. Of course, the indictments probably make it slightly less likely that he will lose by allowing him to dominate news cycles without spending any money and energizing his supporters with a sense of his victimhood.
Is it too slim of a hope that moderate, conservative, independent voters will shy away from a candidate indicted for federal crimes for which there's ample, accessible evidence?
It’s not like there are any voters out there unfamiliar with January 6. Everyone knows what happened, even if they don’t agree on what it means. If someone still wants to vote for him it’s hard for me to see how a criminal trial and even conviction changes that.
If literal. If in the sense of he didn't want people to (wrongly) think he had lost, maybe not.
Um, no. He, as does anybody, gets to contest the election. That doesn't mean you get to do illegal things, but contesting it is not itself illegal.
It all hinges on whether it is fraud.
Having said that, Donald "Lock her up!" Trump deserves this on a cosmic sense. So, too, do the Republicans for their open-ended efforts against Clinton 25 years ago.
Please, everyone. Can you stop trying to throw political opponents into jail? Stop turning the investigative power of government against your enemies?
The power brokers at the top of both sides richly deserve jail. The rest of the nation does not deserve your bullshit and lies.
I didn't vote for him, twice. I didn't vote for the power hungry liars on the other side, either. De-plague this nation of your lies and corruption please.
Fraud would require something like perjury or forgery, neither of which is alleged.
No, fraud does not require perjury or forgery. You can easily commit fraud without committing perjury or forgery. I have known people who did.
Oh, well, you said “something like perjury or forgery. Well, “like” is a vague term. I would argue that trying to get a state elections-officer to “find me” eleven thousand votes (“find me” meaning “invent”) is LIKE perjury or forgery.
The fraud statute that Trump is charged under- defrauding the United States- is specifically a monetary fraud statute. You have to swindle the US government out of money (or something physical).
SCO Smith’s use of the statute this way was already found to be unconstitutional.
Funny, because the truth is the opposite of that. See Hass v. Henkel, 216 U.S. 462 (1910
"The statute is broad enough in its terms to include any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of government . . . (A)ny conspiracy which is calculated to obstruct or impair its efficiency and destroy the value of its operation and reports as fair, impartial and reasonably accurate, would be to defraud the United States by depriving it of its lawful right and duty of promulgating or diffusing the information so officially acquired in the way and at the time required by law or departmental regulation."
Also see Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182 (1924):
"To conspire to defraud the United States means primarily to cheat the Government out of property or money, but it also means to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest. It is not necessary that the Government shall be subjected to property or pecuniary loss by the fraud, but only that its legitimate official action and purpose shall be defeated by misrepresentation, chicane or the overreaching of those charged with carrying out the governmental intention."
" by deceit, craft or trickery"
Trump wasn't even being subtle, let alone any of these...
No-one accused him of subtlety.
Nige-bots Spell Check function has become Self-Aware, Fucks Nige-bot by misspelling “Subtly” (and inserting an unneeded "-" for "No One" (didn't one of those Paki Nerds lose the National Spelling Bee by including a "-"??)
Frank “Spellings overrated”
I'd hardly say the courts 1910's or the 1920's were very deferential to civil rights, however I think Hass was correct, inserting knowingly fraudulent statistics in a government report for financial gain is and should be a crime. However issuing an alternate report with statistics you purport to be correct in counterpoint to the government report would not be. Even if that alternate report were presented to Congress in an effort to make it official.
As for Hammerschmidt, lets not lose sight of what that case was about, defrauding the US of cannon fodder "through the printing, publishing, and circulating of handbills, dodgers, and other matter intended and designed to counsel, advise, and procure persons subject to the Selective Act to refuse to obey it." And the court held that it was not fraudulent, even if the material was not factual and competent legal advice.
Neither case really provides much comfort to this indictment.
1910’s or 1920’s?? how about the 1940’s when a defective Electric Chair in Louisiana (figures if you had a defective Electric Chair it’d be Louisiana, they’ve just mastered running water, strange their LSU teams are so good) resulted in a 17 year old(!) (today he’d get “Alternative Supervision” murderer NOT being “Put to Death” (remember that, it’s important) went to the Surpremes in Francis v. Resweber, 329 U.S. 459 (1947), I-ANAL, (just not into the ANAL) but best I can translate as since he wasn’t “Put to Death” as he was still alive, “Double Jeopardy” wasn’t an ish-yew Chair worked fine on the re-do (I’d have called a time out to Psych the Executioner)
Frank “AC? or DC? I can never keep those “straight”
Fraud sometimes has that narrower meaning, but "conspiracy to defraud the United States" has long been read much more broadly. From Hammerschmidt v. United States (1924):
I have to learn to type faster.
It won't matter.
Completely wrong. Where are you getting these talking points from? If you're talking about McDonnell, that was a different statute.
I would argue that trying to get a state elections-officer to “find me” eleven thousand votes (“find me” meaning “invent”) is LIKE perjury or forgery.
I would argue that if I were to lie about what you said and pretend you said something else, that I could show you committed something LIKE perjury or forgery too. So what if I'm actually the one lying about what's been said, or what words mean.
Not usually - if I say my car has never been in an accident, which I know to be false, and you rely on that representation and buy the car, I've committed fraud. No perjury, no forgery. Just lying.
Likewise, if I call a television station and tell them that a bomb is going to go off in Times Square, I've committed a crime. No perjury, no forgery.
There are no shortage of examples where we criminalize false speech that isn't perjury or forgery.
You can't yell "movie" in a crowded fire-house.
But you can yell," Trump colluded with the Russians®™ to steal the 2016 election".
You can also yell that Trump was the fraudster behind Trump University.
No more of a joke than the majority of universities are these days, honestly.
Support for Trump despite the TU stuff does suggest that the right-wing vision for third level education consists entirely of defrauding the students.
Universities already do so. The Right wing view is to pull all funding from them and let them survive on their own with no grants or loans.
Yes, that's what you claim, but that's also what you support, not just for students, but for workers and consumers, too. All being defrauded all the time.
Wow, such sophistocated legal anal-lysis, you should have gone to law school!!
Maybe Trump would have been deterred from claiming he won the 2020 election if Clinton had been charged for her role in everything that happened after 2016. There are countless instances of her claiming the election was stolen, Trump was illegitimate, Russia "hacked" our democracy (whatever the hell that means), etc. Maybe Trump would have been deterred from keeping boxes of classified material in his bathroom if Clinton had been charged for her own hoarding of classified material on her private email server (likewise in her bathroom). But no, we live in a country with a two-tier justice system. Black Lives Matter and antifa pillaged our cities for months on end -- how many federal prosecutions? January 6th rioters have been charged by the hundreds.
Trump got to appoint the Attorney General. With creative use of the Federal Vacancy Reform Act and a Republican Senate, he had a lot of options.
So it's hard to say there's a two-tier justice system that's biased against Trump when Trump was running the executive branch with a Republican Congress.
Constitutionally speaking, doesn't the buck stop with him?
'There are countless instances of her claiming the election was stolen,'
There are?
'Look what you made him do.'
Maybe Trump would have been deterred from claiming he won the 2020 election (...)
Uh, also hundreds. Y'all are desperately stupid. Vote for a treasonous criminal if you want, but you're not convincing anyone with this two-tiered justice BS.
It is funny to watch your tough-on-crime facade melt away now that it's inconvenient.
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-suburbs-health-racial-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748
This despite the fact that these cases didn't even really belong in federal court. Normally this kind of thing would be a state matter. And, they were not treated well!
You guys and your pathetic grievance fantasies...
As some politicians in America attempt, incredulously, to throw a political opponent into jail for the temerity of running for office, which would not be happening had he retired (itchy trigger finger wanting to respond? Liar.) I am reminded of Chavez shutting down newspapers and arresting an “opposition” TV station.
“Oh, they were trying to throw a coup! So that’s ok!”
Fuck you all. Get your shit fingers off this great golden nation, liars. There is a serious and undeniable and present threat to freedom and democracy right now, but it isn’t an orange assclown with a two bit roadshow.
Trump called for Clinton to be jailed during a campaign rally in San Jose, Calif., calling her “guilty as hell.”
“Hillary Clinton has to go to jail. She has to go to jail. I said that,” he said.
...yet she did not. Nor did he try to do so. It was likely a mistake, but he made zero effort to charge her criminally for her blatantly criminal actions.
Your point?
Nor did he try to [jail Hillary]
Check out John Huber.
He ran on locking up his political opponents. He won the 2016 election.
People observed this and said "Huh, if I want to win the Presidency, I should copy him." And so they did.
Maybe that's a bad thing for the country. But as long as voters reward it, you're going to get more of it.
I complain about that almost every time this comes up, in passing.
Donald “Lock her up!” Trump deserves this in some cosmic sense.
We, America, don’t need this ancient plague of turning the investigative power of government against enemies. A good chunk of constitutional design and the Bill of Rights tries to forbid it to the power hungry.
And Willy Wonka sits back and sighs, resignedly, “Wait. Stop. Don’t do it.”
He deserves it for what? Failing to carry through on the threat, so that the Democrats could be the first to do it to him, instead?
The dramatic irony of it.
'Fuck you all'
'His one little coup didn't do any harm.'
It was a counter-couop to what the Justice Department did to him.
Now we're admitting it was a coup, only justified.
to throw a political opponent into jail for the temerity of running for office
Using fraud and deception to achieve a political objective is fully protected by the First Amendment.
Attempting to enlist state and federal officials to aid him is fully protected by the First Amendment.
That's conspiracy, though.
Trump would absolutely have been charged even if he weren't running. All these investigations have been going on for years, they weren't gonna just fold up shop if Trump stayed out.
The real question is whether Trump would've run if he hadn't been under threat of indictment. He's using his candidacy as a criminal defense, as a source of funds for his legal fees, and as a way of avoiding jail via pardon.
as a source of funds for his legal fees
I think you spelled "his wife's haircuts" wrong.
https://twitter.com/ColoNATIVE2nd/status/1686367838943195136
You mean the (self) pardon they feared, so Congress gleefully sent information to the state prosecutors in NY, while, they swear to god, not attacking a political enemy?
No, I think a self-pardon is relatively unlikely. Much more likely is that he at least gets his sentence(s) commuted by Biden or whoever wins in 2024, if not outright pardoned. Many Republicans have already promised to do so.
He wouldn't be being nearly so successful at politicizing his prosecution if he weren't actually running for president.
Two points: 1. Somin's posts are way too long; 2. His analysis is besides the point; these posecutions are all politically motivated and will backfire in spectacular fashion! -- see: https://priorprobability.com/2023/06/15/charles-i-louis-xvi-and-trump/
A third point: These indictments were brought by grand juries of normal composition, not political parties.
So go fuck yourself.
TRUMP 2024!
What a cute little troll. So sad that you'll never be relevant!
You think your comments here make you relevant? What an empty life.
TRUMP 2024!
Where did I say that commenting here determines relevance in life?
You aren't relevant here because your comments are asinine and empty of any facts or useful information.
You aren't relevant anywhere else because the universe decided that you weren't someone deserving of anyone else's consideration.
Sad.
It's not a tantrum, he's totally owning the libs!
Says a guy who's been posting every few minutes for twelve hours straight.
2,024 years.
That's a...that's a good idea. I like that.
Having gotten your degree from Trump University, you're proposing to apply to the graduate school.
Normal composition for an NBA team maybe.
Normal composition? Weren't these DC grand juries?
What's normal about the population of DC?
I don't see the purpose of ILYA SOMIN posting anything here. Since he's/she's a youngster and naïve, I'll be kind. He/her doesn't seem to know the facts concerning the 2020 "election". If he/her cares to inform him/her self of the truth, it's out there.
As to these latest "charges", then ... do you know anything about Law ?
Wait wait, what's your theory of the law Eric? Your last one made me pee my pants I was laughing so hard! Let's hear this one!
I can see the fraud claim, though the Hawaii precedent helps him; Having an alternate slate of electors claim to be the correct one even after the state certifies seems to be the only way to preserve an election challenge past that point. Maybe we should fix that?
It’s interesting that nobody got prosecuted for the unfaithful elector scheme in 2016, too, and that was pretty clearly soliciting violations of state law.
The rest of the charges seem to depend on an assumption that it would have been clearly illegal to have done as Trump was asking. I think that’s a bit of a stretch. And the intimidation part seems to involve attributing the January 6th riot to Trump, which unless they’ve got some hidden evidence they’ve been keeping secret, does not seem to have been the case.
Granted, *I* think the counting process in Congress is ministerial, but is that so clearly established that asking members of Congress or the VP to exercise discretion would be criminal? I think not.
But the big deal is the prudential consideration: Attempting to jail the favored candidate of the opposing party on a basis that the vast majority of the opposing party think is bogus just does not strike me as prudential. It’s the sort of thing that is almost guaranteed to backfire in terms of civic peace, even if you can in theory justify it by pretending that you’d prosecute anybody else who did the same things. (Again, who saw jail over the unfaithful elector scheme of 2016?)
They’ve chosen a path which utterly guarantees that American politics will become much uglier going forward, and stands a good chance of leaving the winner of the 2024 election viewed as an illegitimate cheat by a third or more of the country.
One last thing: A trial in DC, where Trump got all of five percent of the vote? At this point, just selecting a DC jury when the defendant is a prominent Republican has to be viewed as stacking the jury; Even a minimal exercise of the prosecution's preemptory challenges would likely be able to guarantee a jury with no Trump voters in it at all.
Is that going to be seen as a fair trial? I doubt it.
That's a pretty safe prediction.
In 2019, 34% of Americans said they thought Obama was born in Kenya. For a significant chunk of Americans, the only legitimate election is one their party wins. That's been true for at least the last 20 years.
I suspect it won't get better in 2024.
"In 2019, 34% of Americans said they thought Obama was born in Kenya."
...and the basis for that was:
Claim:
A 1991 literary client list promotional booklet identified Barack Obama as having been born in Kenya.
Rating:
True
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/promotional-booklet/
QED
I doubt that 34 total people, let alone 34% of the electorate, ever saw such a booklet.
Maybe if the Hillary Rodman cam-pain hadn't released photos of Barry Hussein in his "Native African Garb" peoples wouldn't have made the honest mistake of his being a Native African. and by the way, what would be the problem with his being a Native African?? (Oh, he wouldn't have been qualified to be POTUS?? like I said, what's the problem?)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/25/barackobama.hillaryclinton
Frank "Native Amurican"
Brett, I completely agree with your point that American politics will get considerably uglier going forward.
I disagree with the causal connection being drawn here. The right long ago pegged the ugliness meter, and this will be cited for stuff they were already gonna do.
C'mon S_0. If you cannot see that this has been a race to the bottom, you are kidding yourself.
The right will say so but they’ve been calling everything the last straw for years.
After the sixth time I ceased to believe their hostage taking threats.
Those that are racing for the bottom have long ago reached it.
Politics has been at the bottom, well, forever. It's gotten mildly better in modern, free countries with free speech and press. It's still a profession sought out by corruption, they just have to hide it better.
The most honest statement I ever heard was, "Well, who cares if they take some on the side as long as they do the right thing for the people?"
Fair enough. Get thee to a nunnery.
Yes cynicism has long been cover for anti democratic nihilism.
S_0,
Once again, you change the subject to avoid responding.
That you cannot see that Dems are also racing to the bottom betrays your partisanship.
Neither party was like that during the 1980's.
I think the facts matter. Trump did big crimes. He is getting prosecuted. As he should.
Dems are not immune from shady tactics but I don’t see what about this has you thinking it’s bad unless you are ignoring the underlying facts.
I never said it was bad to prosecute Trump.
You jump to unwarranted conclusions too fast.
I learned about Dem politics during the reign of Richard J Daley and also working for 6 years of a Dem US Senator. I have seem good and bad.
I have also seen good and veru bad among Reps.
"The right long ago pegged the ugliness meter, "
That's pretty rich after the left rioting to the tune of billions of dollars in property damage and dozens dead. January 6th wasn't shocking because there was a riot, the left rioted to try to stop Trump's inauguration in 2017. It was shocking because it was the right rioting for once.
You, the one who posted about lynching judges, are a great example of someone who will be unable to dig deeper after this indictment even if you cry it’s totally gonna happen.
You're obviously starting to lose track of who says what...
Meh, even if he did get you confused with some other asshole you’ll get there some day. Overruled.
They’ve chosen a path ...
Infuriating. The one who chose the path is Trump himself. And you and your fellow cultists followed him enthusiastically down it.
It is a sad day for our country.
Every day since January 20, 2021 has been a sad day for our country.
Yeah. It's a real shame when the law applies even to those who think they're above it.
I'm presuming that you don't actually have any disputes with the facts of the indictment, and can't provide any legal argument disputing the charges?
You just don't like your boy facing consequences?
Paybacks are a Hillary
The facts alleged in the indictment do not amount to a crime.
You keep saying that, but I don't get the impression that there's anything behind that statement other than wishful thinking.
Guess we'll find out when the SC eventually weighs in like they did with Mr. Smith's prosecution of Gov. McDonnell.
Sometimes J-hovah gets the final word, like with that A-hole MLB Commissioner A Bartlett Giamatti, he cancelled Pete(y) Rose, Jay-Hay cancelled him. 30+ years later who gives a (redacted) about gambling?
I don't think the Supreme Court weighing in will resolve the question of whether Michael Ejercito knows what he's talking about.
The alleged acts are constitutionally protected speech.
and the Indictment(s) are Bullshit, which is also constitutionally protected speech, like burning a Flag, if I was "45"s campaign manager, I'd advise him to refer to all the charges as "Bullshit" and to burn a "BM's Matter" Flag in Court at his arraignment (Speech is either protected or it isn't)
Can't wait for "January 6th" 2025
"The facts alleged in the indictment do not amount to a crime."
With all due regard for Godwin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_Nazi_Germany [ellipses and footnote omitted]
No, Commenter, that was Jan 06 and the lead up. What Trump tried to do cannot be allowed without consequence if we are to remain a republic.
The whining and threats on here are largely from people who have already given up on democracy and think Dems winning is never legitimate.
And if the prosecutions of the Jan 06 participants are any indication, this will deter. Of the speeches in public will get as silly and melodramatic as anything. But future wannabe Trumps and advisors will think twice.
Think twice about doing what? Making political statements that the Elites don't approve?
"The whining and threats on here are largely from people who have already given up on democracy and think Dems winning is never legitimate."
Can you name the last time Dems did not protest an election of a Republican President?
It was 1988.
Again, start a trend and then bitch that others follow.
And yet they manage to do so without committing fraud.
In fairness, that only covers two Republican presidents, both of whom entered office without winning the popular vote; the first by a tiny number of votes in Florida, the second with substantial help from Russia (per the findings of the Republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee).
POTUS’s aren’t erected by “Popular Vote”, if you didn’t have an Intergrated Pubic Screw-el Ed-jew-ma-cation, you’d know that, or maybe if you knew how to use AlGores Wikipedia, “Tiny Number” seems like it was several hundred, so is it “One Man/One Vote” or not, you Race-ist David-Duke Fuck?? “Substantial Help from Russia” (It’s Roosh-a, like Bernie Sanders pronounces it, you Anti-Semite) I guess getting the DemoKKKrats to nominate possibly the most Unlikeable nominee since Humpty Dump Humbert Humphrey, who was a treacherous, gutless old ward-heeler who should be put in a goddamn bottle and sent out with the Japanese current.(HT (Dr.) HS Thompson)
Could be considered "Substantial Help from Roosha"
Oh that’s right, Adam Shit-show had Photos of “Naked Trunk” (Homo probably still has them) Seriously, you’re so fucking stupid, I’m almost considering turning in my Kinder/Gentler Credentials
Frank “Back to Kinder/Gentler, if you Fucks will let me!”
Republicans were all set to protest losing the election but winning the popular vote in 2000, except when it turned out the other way and they suddenly liked the electoral college a whole lot, like a Brooks Brothers riot amount.
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/21/it-isnt-just-donald-trump-the-bush-campaign-plotted-to-reject-election-results-in-2000/
"And if the prosecutions of the Jan 06 participants are any indication, this will deter."
That is wishful thinking, no matter how crooked and deceitful the Orange Clown is.
Do you think we are in some Goldilocks zone where the zealots cannot be deterred but can be emboldened?
Seems unlikely.
If Trump just views it all as one big game, getting in the craw of Democrats, then, well, maybe.
Trumps not then one to seek to deter.
"Do you think we are in some Goldilocks zone "
Keep moving those goal posts.
Your thesis above is that the right will be emboldened by this. You also mock me for saying the right will be deterred by this.
No new goalposts, just you being a bit more contrarian than consistent.
"Your thesis above is that the right will be emboldened by this"
Whoa! Where the hell did you read that.
You have a maddening argumentative style of deliberately misreading comments to try to make a point. That is the typical way that you move your goal posts
I said that the nutjobs will not be deterred. What evidence do you have (any evidence please) that they will be? That is not a thesis, it is statement about the absence of contrary evidence.
I agree it’s a sad day, but I suspect my reasons differ widely from yours.
Do you think it’s sad that Trump is being prosecuted for serious crimes that there is strong evidence he committed?
bernard11, a DC jury will decide whether the evidence is strong enough to determine guilt of a crime.
I think it would be a sad and solemn day for any country to see a former leader (especially when supported by roughly one-third to one-half the country, depending on poll you read) being prosecuted.
"Who cares if he's committed multiple serious felonies; lots of people like him so he should get a pass!"
What a dipshit.
bernard11, a DC jury will decide whether the evidence is strong enough to determine guilt of a crime.
But not whether it is strong enough to bring an indictment.
I think it would be a sad and solemn day for any country to see a former leader (especially when supported by roughly one-third to one-half the country, depending on poll you read) being prosecuted.
I think it is a sad day when so many of our citizens stick loyally to this momzer, deluding themselves into denying not just that he is a loathsome individual and a criminal, but that he is a wrongly persecuted man who has done nothing wrong.
Really, that reaction is just unbelievable.
Still don't get why they had Hunter Biden announce the Indictment
The reason why is they didn’t.
You sure they aren't the same guy? Funny you never see them together. And wonder why they aren't indicting Trump for illegal purchase of a firearm? Sounds like a more serious charge than the Bullshit (HT "45") they are charging him with.
I disagree with Professor Somin on many things, but I agree with him on this. The consitutional order is far more important than any one man or party. It doesn’t matter if you agree with his policies or think he can make the trains run on time.
Also, I strongly doubt Trump was any more delusional than Bernie Maddoff was. He has been enormously successful at acquiring power. Like other skilled mobsters and autocrats, he projects a persona that makes him appear weak to his opponents, including creating an impression that he is mentally disturbed, not in charge, or unaware of what he has been doing. This shoild be seen as the defense and weapon it is. He works with parts of the human psyche intellectuals have a hard time dealing with. They perceive him as mentally inept. But this cover of incompetence is a strategic one.
A person without talent or mental aptitude would simply not have been able to affect a hostile takeover, a complete takeover, of one of the country’s two major parties. Mr. Trump managed to unseat, sideline, nearly all of the Republican Party’s previous leadership that he didn’t turn into loyal footsoldiers. He completely reoriented its ideology, and make it all about him, in just a few years. Trump took over the Republican party in less time than either Hitler or Stalin took to take over the Nazi and Communist parties. And both latter parties arguably started with more strongman-friendly traditions and ideologies.
Mr. Trump may not have much talent for running the country. He doesn’t have to. He no more needs to know anything about running the country then a Gordon Gekko has to know how to run a factory in order to strip it down and sell it for the real estate value after he takes it over. The traditional measures of competence are completely irrelevant to wither’s goals. Nor does Mr. Trump need to have to have any loyalty to this country in order for his takeover to be successful. Like Mr. Gekko, Mr. Trump’s talents, and loyalties, lie elsewhere.
"Like Mr. Gekko, Mr. Biden's talents, and loyalties, lie elsewhere."
Not true at all. You may disagree with his policies. You may not like abortion, immigration, gun control, welfare programs, or affirmative action. But Biden is an ordinary American politician, the kind who abides by election results and concedes and leaves office when he loses elections. Mr. Trump is not. That’s far more important to the survival of a constitutional democracy than any policy issue.
"But Biden is an ordinary American politician,...."
And therein lies the problem.
Well THAT's your problem, "Ordinary Amurican Politicians" and I'm not threatening insurrection, just stating a fact, But if 95% of the House/Senate/Surpremes(OK, may only 40%)/Unerected Federal Officials were struck down by J-hova's lightning bolts (sort of a Celestial "Operation Wrath of God") it'd be a good start.
Frank
Biden signed off on the Russiagate thing and was behind the criminal persecution of Flynn.
Fuck that nonsense.
Please tell your boss Mr. Putin we in America say hello!
Thanks so much for the in-depth efforts to interfere in our elections, including comments like this!
Oh. forgot. Not siding with the narrative makes one pro-Putin.
Thanks GW Bush.
Yes, Mr. Biden is an ordinary, run of the mill corrupt politician, found in both parties. When they lose, the walk to the sidelines, confident that their chance will come again.
In contrast, Mr Trump is the worst kind of bad loser, dishonest, deceitful, and corrupt to the core of his being.
Biden sold access as VP. Did a blatant quid pro quo to get Shokin fired when he was investigating Hunter's boss.
He's criminal. But you do not care. Because consistency is not a strong suit.
The best part is the stupid fuck bragged about doing it.
Senescent J would have to get a lot smarter to rise to Stupid Fuck level.
"But you do not care. "
Explain through formal logic, how you deduce that.
Did a blatant quid pro quo to get Shokin fired when he was investigating Hunter’s boss.
Oh fuck off. This is one of the stupidest, most dishonest things that all the RWNJ's repeat, and they repeat plenty of them.
I agree! But at all levels, and all efforts.
Nobody is above the law!
But that is a subset of everybody is equal before the law, which includes other concepts, like not turning the investigative power of the government against political enemies becuz u wanna git 'im*.
* Now we need plausable deniability, facetious concern for the rule of law, and, what's that term when a spy agency does illegal stuff but needs a clean path of discovery for, you know, courts?
Oh, right. Lies, lies, and lies, so we kin git 'im!
It doesn’t matter this guy may be the most deserving of being gitted since what, Nixon? Some president in the 1800s? Ever?
Proof? The sentence I responded to, trotted out as a facetious statement of concern for rule of law, to help to git ‘im!
I am ready to be corrected on this.
Those who toss items into the eco chambers, for hoi polloi to feel good about themselves routing it through their neurons, sure as hell know what they're doing, and lying about.
SO far, no post analyzes any of the actual charges, to see if they are legally sound. Rather disappointing.
Since we are only addressing the meta-legal issues, let me posit the following question.
You review the indictment, do lots of research, and conclude that (a) Trump is a very bad man who attacked our Constitutional order but (b) none of the counts of the indictment state a criminal violation with the facts alleged in the indictment and the laws cited.
Which makes the case ripe for a motion to dismiss.
It is well established that the Due Process Clause requires a clear notice of what is criminal, and that the alleged acts fit the criminal statute.
So to indict and prosecute Trump for attacking the Constitution, you have to trash the Constitution's Due Process protection. Sort of like the Vietnam-era adage of we have to destroy the village to save it.
Do you proceed?
“none of the counts of the indictment state a criminal violation with the facts alleged in the indictment and the laws cited.”
Show your work. Especially after last night your big analysis of the first cited law relied on its title not its text.
What a self important shit you are.
He's really not even self-important
You really seem to not be doing well today, eh? Just empty angryposting all over the place.
Following your lead. I thought you muted me. Miss my pithy comments?
For today? I make an exception for a number of bad posters.
Be careful or Miss Bumble will stomp her dainty food and slap you in the face with a white glove.
What a tremendous femme!
I just saw and commented on that. You are a fool worthy of muting. The INDICTMENT is narrower than the statute. You judge the charges by the INDICTMENT.
If I have time, I may post some analysis. I would think the professors here would have started the work, but apparently not.
Your legal analysis was based on the statute’s title using the word fraud yesterday is all. You do not appear to have changed your position.
The full statute cited in the first count applies to the facts by my read. If you are going to claim otherwise, show your work.
Keep digging yourself in a hole, you fool. My analysis was based on what the indictment charges, not the statute’s title. As I stated in the other post (which, I admit, I hijacked off-topic), the indictment is narrower than the statute. The legal validity is judge by what the indictment charges. That it might have charged something else in the statute is neither here nor there.
Show your work. I'm open to being convinced.
Even if he did, he would be wrong. The indictment does not charge the "full statute." It charges part of the statute. So that count rises or falls on the part charged, not some uncharged part of the statute.
Sarcastro is smart enough to know this, but he figures he can keep pounding the table and look like he has a point.
Frankly, I've been thinking lately that Sarcastr0 is a she, not a he.
Think about the traits Sarcastr0 presents here: absolute loyalty - to the point of delusion, exaggerated sensitivities, constant manipulative behavior, and pseudologia fantastica.
That's how emotionally damaged women behave.
Well that changes things, if she’s hot who gives a fuck what she “thinks”?? (No, they really don’t think, they "feel", especially in a specific "Spot" )
Frank (Original G)
You are reading in a monetary requirement that is not in the statute cited.
Nor in the indictment, that I can see.
Maybe I am missing something but if so you have not explained what it is.
So you have come off your silly argument about the statute.
See my post below to explain it. I was wrong about this particularly statute. Other fraud statutes do have such a requirement, as the Court unanimously held as recently in 2019 in the Bridgegate case.
Good man. Still came on way hot about me, and your second paragraph being all about the statute shows your first to be nonsense. But you came around in the end.
Better than many around here.
Hey are you a Chick? Shaved/Not? "Enhanced"/Not?, Let guys come in the "Backdoor"?, Gag Reflex, please pick one A: No
Frank
Given the venue and the judge the chances of that (dismissing) are slim to none.
Has a judge been assigned yet? The judge that dealt with the grand jury issues is not necessarily the same as will try the case.
FWIW:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/1/tanya-chutkan-judge-assigned-donald-trumps-jan-6-c/
Yes, Judge Chutkan, who was representing Burisma at her previous lawfirm for Hunter Biden before becoming a judge. I think she was also involved in the Congressional lawsuit against Fusion GPS.
Totally not corrupt, guys. Those clerks, when they randomly assign these cases, they sure do make sure it’s really random!
Of course. The whole indictment is insurance because of the judge assignment in the Florida case.
Hah.
According to Wikipedia, Tanya Chutkan in 2002 joined the law firm of Boies, Schiller & Flexner, becoming a partner in 2007. She took the federal bench on June 5, 2014.
BCD, where do you get that she was representing Burisma while at Boies, Schiller & Flexner? Please be specific.
Still waiting, BCD. Are you once again making shit up?
FWIW:
https://dailycaller.com/2023/08/01/trump-judge-firm-boies-schiller-flexner-hunter-biden-burisma-tanya-chutkan/
Apparently the end of her time at BSF (Spring 2014?) was when Hunter became involved with Burisma and BSF.
There is no indication she had any involvement.
Those clerks, when they randomly assign these cases, they sure do make sure it’s really random!
You might be surprised to learn that the rules vary depending on the district/circuit you're in.
In the 9th Circuit, cases are given to judges that have more experience with a specific subject matter. That's why Judge Benitez keeps getting 2nd Amendment cases. In the Northern District of Florida, the Chief Judge orders the clerk on how to distribute cases, which is why the Chief Judge keeps getting Ron DeSantis cases: he's assigning them to himself!
I don't know the procedure in the District Court in DC, but I wouldn't be surprised if cases are steered to certain judges as a matter of official policy.
Judge Tanya Chutkan has a history of harsh sentencing of January 6 defendants. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/08/01/judge-chutkan-trump-jan-6-special-counsel/
Do you proceed?
Answer: No.
This is one of the clearest examples of begging the question I've ever seen. It's absurd logic.
Benjamin Netanyahu was "Indicted" too, whatever happened to him?
He's over there working on a civil war, same as Trump.
What's so civil bout' war anyway?
I wish you and I can become internet friends again. What can I do to repair?
Describe the "civil war", he is working on.
Not allowing the judiciary to be a superior branch to others in Israel?
Quelle horror!
I get that the concept of rule of law must be confusing to you, but it makes sense that people who are trying to preserve it in the US are also concerned about the Israeli Knesset undermining it.
Only if you believe that "reasonableness" makes the most undemocratic part of government the arbiter of any policy whether or not there is black-letter law.
Luckily in the S we are not burdened with such a distortion of raw judicial power.
Don’t be myopic. There is a set of ‘reforms’ being planned. Look at them together.
Forests and trees and all that.
When THEY are passed, feel free to bitch and moan.
So far, it is a needed reduction in the influence of the courts, including their ability to block new judges that the court does not like.
I like to point out bad things before they are already done.
So do all the protesters.
Move those goal posts. Avoid your own myopia.
I’ve set my goalposts and explained why yours are bad. Did you find that hard to follow?
OK, that does sound like something a Bee-Otch would say.
So judicial review also confuses you as a concept? English courts review UK government decisions for reasonableness every day, as do courts in every other democracy, even if they don't always use that word.
"people who are trying to preserve it in the US are also concerned about the Israeli Knesset undermining it"
Democrats in the US want to enlarge the Supreme Court because they don't control it. Rule of law?
Opposition in Israel controls the court, they want to preserve their control. [They also hate religious Jews and Bibi]
The one count his lawyers might have a point with is Count 4. Neither the federal constitution nor federal law provides for a right to vote in matters involving the appointment of presidential electors. Any such right arises purely from state law, from a discretionary decision of state legislatures.
Nor do presidential electors themselves have any meaningful right to vote. Chiafolo v. Washington held that presidential electors have only ministerial voting duties, not voting rights. If they don’t vote exactly as instructed, they can be summarily replaced, or prosecuted. That might pass for a right to vote in Soviet Russia, but it’s not a voting “right” in any meaningful American sense.
So your conclusion is that US Presidents aren't elected? That would be novel.
They are elected by Presidential Electors who are appointed in the manner determined by state legislatures.
It so happens that in current times state legislatures have decided to use popular elections as the manner of appointing their state’s presidential electors. But all such elections, and any right to vote to them, are entirely creatures of the state legislatures, that is, state law. The criminal statute involved only criminalizes rights to vote that are guaranteed by the constitution or laws of the United States. That’s the element that simply isn’t met here.
Because any right to vote for President that may exist is guaranteed only by a state legislature, voting for President is not one of the rights guaranteed by the constitution or laws of the United States.
So the President is elected by President Electors who do not have "any meaningful right to vote". I'm not sure that makes it any clearer.
But more generally, I think you're wrong to say or imply that a state could abolish presidential elections and decide that the electors are appointed by lottery, or by appointment by the governor, without falling foul of the Federal constitution. If nothing else, it would violate the Republican Form of Government clause, and arguably also clause 4 of Article II, which states that electors are "chusen" (?), which contemplates some kind of minimally democratic way of selecting them.
“any meaningful right to vote”
That does makes sense if you understand that the electors have the obligation to cast their votes consistent with the results of the elections as defined by state law. There certainly is a directly traceable line to the votes of the citizens of the state
You can't violate the Republican form of government clause by exercising a power expressly delegated to you! Vague clauses don't override specific clauses. And remember that the majority of electors were appointed by state legislatures for most of the early Presidential elections, and at least some of them were appointed as late as 1860. Nobody ever suggested that they were running afoul of the Republican form of government clause. They'd basically have had to toss democracy and run the state as a monarchy to do that.
What they can't do is CHANGE means of selecting electors after election day, because election day is the designated day for selecting electors, after that point they've already been selected.
You can’t violate the Republican form of government clause by exercising a power expressly delegated to you!
You can if that "vague clause" is an express constraint on the delegated power. That's what the entire Bill of Rights is.
at least some of them were appointed as late as 1860
Pity that nothing changed in the constitution after 1860. O, wait...
P.S. I agree with this:
What they can’t do is CHANGE means of selecting electors after election day, because election day is the designated day for selecting electors, after that point they’ve already been selected.
But I wonder which bits of the Constitution you're relying on to reach that conclusion, if not the bits that I highlighted.
In your view, how can it be constitutional to have Supreme Court justices selected by the President and the Senate? Wouldn’t your argument equally require direct popular election of Supreme Court Justices?
Also, doesn’t the fact that Senators continued to be selected by state legislatures until the 17th Amendment was ratified in 1913, long long after the Bill of Rights was passed, severely undermine your claim that the Bill of Rights somehow created some sort of implied right for direct election to public offices that weren’t elected per constitution’s text? Maybe the President is arguably different from Supreme Court justices. If the 17th Amendment hadn’t been adopted, state legislatures would be selecting the members of the U.S. Senate today.
Article 2, section 1: "The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the United States."
Election day is the day Congress set for selecting the electors. But this clause in no way constrains HOW the electors are chosen, except for delegating to state legislatures the decision of how it happens.
And, as I pointed out, a majority of state legislatures chose to directly appoint the electors for a fair number of elections, spanning decades, and the practice wasn't entirely abandoned until the Civil war. Never that I know of was it thought to violate the Republican form of government clause.
Fourteenth Amendment includes "the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States" in the context of representation in the House; if you have an election, you have to let anyone vote who meets the specified criteria (subsequently amended for age and gender).
That isn't a Republican form of government argument, but I suppose it could be argued that it does confer an actual right to vote for Presidential electors, not just a right to vote for them if that's the method of selection the legislature dictates.
Since the Framers themselves chose to leave the question of how Electors are appointed to state legislatures, they obviously concluded that leaving the matter in the hands of an elected legislature was sufficiently “minimally democratic.”
It seems to me that one could equally argue that popular elections are unconstitutional. The constitution provides for the “equal protection of the law.” But ordinary people are known to be bigots, biased, discriminatory. They aren’t fair. By positing “fairness” rather than “democracy” as the supreme constitutional value that is entitled to trump all others, one could equally well argue that the constitution’s framers couldn’t possibly have left important decisions to a rabble known for its unfairness. They must have intended that only fair people be involved in important decisions like choosing leaders.
If the explicit text of the constitution is no object, and one gets to say it has to go if inconsistent with what one posits to be the supreme constitutional value, then elections get to exist only to the extent those in power agree with you as to what the supreme value should be. Pick a suitable (nice-sounding) alternative supreme value, and out the door go elections.
Our constitution is an imperfect compromise among competing interests and values. It isn’t a complete democracy. And it’s far from completely fair. It is what it is.
As Otto Wels said in the last free speech made to the Weimar German Reichstag, opposing Hitler’s Enabling Act just before its passage and his forced exile, the Weimar Constitution was far from a perfect constitution, but it was nonetheless worth defending as it was against people who would completely supplant it and substitute their own will.
The same is true of the American constitution. It’s far from perfect. It’s only partially democratic. Want more democracy than it currently provides for? Amend it. Don’t try to bypass it or doublethink its explicit text into non-existence.
Zero video of Trump encouraging protesters to be violent and attack the Capitol.
Tons of video of Ray Epps encouraging protesters to be violent and attack the Capitol.
That's weird.
Good thing the Jan 6 speech itself is not what Trump is being charged for.
You know, you are probably correct. I was confused because at Smith’s public statement he was painting the indictment as if he was charging Trump with insurrection.
He is, only indirectly so that he doesn't actually have to prove that there was, legally, an insurrection.
Which of course would work with a DC jury.
Make up your minds, are DC jurors corrupt or is the prosecutor?
DC jurors are not corrupt. Just idiots.
That's a false choice.
DC jurors are corrupt. DC prosecutors are corrupt. DC judges are corrupt.
DC itself is a miserable hellhole producing the most evil the world has ever seen.
So, all of the above.
... why don't you just move? Republicans really can't seem to stand most of the people in this country. You do know there are lots of other countries on Earth, yeah?
Why not stay and advocate for change?
Why do you tolerate $6T a year flowing through DC and you getting shit out of it but a bunch of federal agencies oppressing you and your kids getting poorer and stupider?
"are DC jurors corrupt or is the prosecutor"
Yes
No, Brett, Jack Smith is not charging insurrection, directly or indirectly. Read the freaking indictment.
The indictment says what it’s charging, and what the supporting evidence is. Jack Smith’s public statements are not the indictment.
You may wish to refer to paras 104-124 of the indictment to review how Trump’s Jan 6 actions, including but not limited to the speech, are evidence that “Defendant made multiple knowingly false statements integral to his criminal plans to defeat the federal government function, obstruct the certification, and interfere with others’ right to vote and have their votes counted.” (Per para 104)
Ok, so the first count involves creating false sets of electors with the plan to present them to Congress as legitimate. Assuming Trump was involved in a conspiracy to do that - as is alleged in the indictment - well, yep, that’s an overt act that constitutes a crime.
Best I can tell by reading what I can find the other three charges involve talking with no action. Yes, the talking involved lying a lot. I’m not seeing any action. Particularly in the fourth charge.
If we’re gonna start putting politicians in prison for lying we’re gonna have to build a lot more prisons.
This post is not intended to defend Trump, but to ask a sincere INAL question. What are the actual criminal actions alleged in the last three indictments?
While the false electors scheme is one part of the conspiracy, it’s not the only evidence in support of count 1 (conspiracy to defraud) - pretty much all of paras 8-123 are part of the conspiracy evidence. And I think there’s merit to 2 and 3 as well on pretty much the same basis. It’s the same actions that are evidence of conspiracy to obstruct (18 USC s 1512(k)) and obstruction/attempted obstruction (18 USC ss 512(c)(2), 2)) of the electoral count.
So for count 2, providing fake electors is also evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct the electoral count, but not the only evidence of that conspiracy. His speech on Jan 6, for example, is also evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct, by the mechanism of directed violence to throw Congress into disarray in the hopes of disrupting and delaying the count. Same for count 3 (obstruction or attempt to do the same).
Haven’t read up on count 4 yet, but IIAL and so far I think that counts 1-3 are decently supported on pretty much the same basis and evidence.
The speech was fully protected by the First Amendment.
The indictment does not even allege that the speech contained coded words to signal the rioters to start rioting. It claims that the speech itself, taken as is, somehow directed violence at Congress.
You seem confused. Speech can be protected by the 1st Amd at the exact same time it is evidence of what the speaker is saying, why they are saying it, and what they intend.
Bobbleheaded repetition that the Jan 6 speech is “fully protected” doesn’t mean it’s not relevant evidence under FRE 403.
By way of example, a guy in white robes can give a speech saying “I think we should lynch those uppity people”. That’s your “fully protected” speech, repugnant as it is.
It’s also relevant evidence if the guy in white robes is indicted for conspiring to lynch someone he’s identified as “uppity”. The speech itself is not a crime, per S.Ct. precedent. But the speech is still evidence of the conspiracy.
Can you acknowledge that those are two different things, or will you just parrot “the speech is fully protected” again?
All four counts involve creating false sets of electors with the plan to present them to Congress as legitimate. There are scads of overt acts alleged. Perhaps most prominently, Donald Trump and John Eastman solicited Mike Pence to disregard the Electoral Count Act.
And FWIW, conspiracy under 18 U.S.C. § 241 includes no overt act requirement.
Covfefe break!
Count 1: (Conspiracy to Defraud the United States—18 U.S.C. § 371)
Law: If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Alleged facts:
DONALD J. TRUMP,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and unknown to the Grand Jury, to defraud the United States by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to
impair, obstruct, and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the presidential election are collected, counted, and certified by the federal government.
The purpose of the conspiracy was to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election by using knowingly false claims of election fraud to obstruct the federal government function by which those results are collected, counted, and certified.
The Federal Government Function
The federal government function by which the results of the election for President of the United States are collected, counted, and certified was established through the Constitution and the Electoral Count Act (ECA), a federal law enacted in 1887. The Constitution provided that individuals called electors select the president, and that each state determine for itself how to
appoint the electors apportioned to it.
Manner and Means
The Defendant and co-conspirators used knowingly false claims of election fraud to get state legislators and election officials to subvert the legitimate election results and change electoral votes for the Defendant’s opponent, Joseph R. Biden, Jr., to electoral votes for the Defendant. That is, on the pretext of baseless fraud claims, the Defendant pushed officials in certain states to ignore the popular vote; disenfranchise millions of voters; dismiss
legitimate electors; and ultimately, cause the ascertainment of and voting by illegitimate electors in favor of the Defendant.
The Defendant and co-conspirators organized fraudulent slates of electors in seven targeted states (Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin), attempting to mimic the procedures that the legitimate electors were supposed to follow under the Constitution and other federal and state laws. This included causing the fraudulent electors to meet on the day appointed by federal law on which legitimate electors were to gather and cast their votes; cast fraudulent votes for the
Defendant; and sign certificates falsely representing that they were legitimate electors. Some fraudulent electors were tricked into participating based on the understanding that their votes would be used only if the Defendant succeeded in outcome-determinative lawsuits within their state, which the Defendant never did. The Defendant and co-conspirators then
caused these fraudulent electors to transmit their false certificates to the Vice President and other government officials to be counted at the certification proceeding on January 6.
The Defendant and co-conspirators attempted to use the power and authority of the Justice Department to conduct sham election crime investigations and to send a letter to the targeted states that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had identified significant concerns that may have impacted the election outcome; that sought to advance the Defendant’s fraudulent elector plan by using the Justice Department’s authority to
falsely present the fraudulent electors as a valid alternative to the legitimate electors; and that urged, on behalf of the Justice Department, the targeted states’ legislatures to convene to create the opportunity to choose the fraudulent electors over the legitimate electors.
[There is a lot more of Count 1, but this seems a decent start
Why are you just copy and pasting from the indictment? Most people here have already read it, or at least skimmed it.
Sarcastro's that "Secretary" at the Band-Fag meetings who has to record everything in triplicate
I don’t know if this is a response to me or not, but I get count 1. I’m having a hard time seeing the crimes in the other three counts. The appallingly shitty behavior is obvious, but what are the actions that are criminal? I hope it’s more than words.
People have challenged Sacastr0's claims, so she's pointing at the Smith's reasoning and saying "See? I told you the indictment made sense!"
I'm pretty much in the same place: Count 1 I can see, though I can also see problems with it given the 1960 precedent.
The rest of the counts seem kind of dubious to me.
Screw the 1960 precedent. It doesn’t matter in 2023 that someone may have gotten away with it. Should we be letting all murderers off the hook because of OJ?
I don’t see what the hell count 4 is. Count 1 is obvious. 2 and 3 are something I guessX although pretty interpretable.
OJ didn't "get away with it" because people thought cutting people up with a knife was legal, though. He "got away with it" because a jury was persuaded that it hadn't been proven he'd done it.
There wasn't any question at all that the 1960 Democratic slate of electors had "done it". The precedent is that it wasn't treated as having done something illegal.
Because it wasn't, and relitigating it now won't change that. It'll only help you as you avoid talking about Trump's level of guilt by redirecting the conversation.
Brett, the only thing I am relatively confident about wrt this indictment is that this will eventually get to SCOTUS. I do not think this is simple and straightforward.
We agree there. This case is sufficiently out of the ordinary it's practically guaranteed to reach the Supreme court.
Which makes it more likely, though? Trump winning, or Trump losing badly?
I think it does not matter = winning or losing makes it more likely for SCOTUS to consider constitutional questions arising from indictment.
This will go to SCOTUS. It has to.
What constitutional questions arising from the indictment do you posit?
The governor also certified the second set of electors in Hawaii in 1960, albeit after the deadline had passed and he had already certified the first set of electors.
Nixon asked for unanimous consent to count the second set of Hawaiian electoral votes for Kennedy. He apparently got it.
So if that had been the Trump plan, then I'd agree there's absolutely no crime.
But Trump went quite a bit further. There hadn't been a recount in Trump's favor, the electors weren't certified by their governors, and Pence wasn't supposed to ask for unanimous consent. The Eastman memo pretty consistently departs from any precedent I've seen to make new legal theories about the sweeping power of the Vice President. It's not like this was business as usual and Trump got rug pulled. This was a pretty out-there legal idea that Trump promoted well past the point of plausibility.
I don't think you understand how things work around here:
Brett made up his mind already, and no amount of discussion regarding the differences between the two situations will convince him of anything he doesn't already believe.
To be fair that goes both ways (for the most part) around here.
You missed the mark totally on this one.
There was fraud and deception in the actual election. That seems to count for nothing with you. I think you smelled an 'extra credit" legal problem and just fussed with the facts yourself.
What is worse ? Actually murdering someone , or giving false testimony about a murder.
The one upside I’d think Trump supporters would see in this indictment is that he’ll get the opportunity to present all his supposed evidence of election fraud in court (as a defense).
The reality of course is that he already had plenty of opportunity to present such evidence in court in 2020. His supporters have argued that the doctrine of standing completely prevented him from doing so. That’s totally false (in many suits allegations of fraud simply weren’t made, or were litigated on the merits and rejected) but, even if it were true, voila, now he gets to litigate the issue in court!
I am on the lookout for Trump supporters celebrating that silver lining.
Count 2: (Conspiracy to Obstruct an Official Proceeding—18 U.S.C. § 1512(k))
The law, in relevant part:
(b)Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—
(1)influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an
official proceeding;
...
(k)Whoever conspires to commit any offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.
Alleged facts:
From on or about November 14, 2020, through on or about January 7, 2021, in the District of Columbia and elsewhere, the Defendant, DONALD J. TRUMP, did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and
unknown to the Grand Jury, to corruptly obstruct and impede an official proceeding, that is, the certification of the electoral vote, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1512(c)(2).
"And this makes sense because _________________". You fill in the blank, okay?
Now establish that anything Trump did obstructed and impeded an official proceeding. Note, anything TRUMP did.
Basically to prove this count, he has to establish that Trump in some legally relevant sense was one of the conspirators in the January 6th break in to the Capitol.
If he can prove that, hang him high. But I've seen nothing that even vaguely resembles evidence of it.
As the Defendant’s attempts to obstruct the electoral vote through deceit of state officials met with repeated failure, beginning in early December 2020, he and co-conspirators developed a new plan: to marshal individuals who would have served as the Defendant’s electors, had he won the popular vote, in seven targeted states—Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin—and cause those individuals to make and send to the Vice President and Congress false certifications that they were legitimate electors.
In late December 2020, the Defendant attempted to use the Justice Department to make knowingly false claims of election fraud to officials in the targeted states through a formal letter under the Acting Attorney General’s signature, thus giving the Defendant’s lies the backing of the federal government and attempting to improperly influence the targeted states to replace legitimate Biden electors with the Defendant’s.
Qn December 31, the Defendant summoned to the Oval Office the Acting Attorney General, Acting Deputy Attorney General, and other advisors. In the meeting, the Defendant again raised claims about election fraud that Justice Department officials already had told him were not true—and that the senior Justice Department officials reiterated were false—and suggested he might change the leadership in the Justice Department.
On January 4, the Defendant held a meeting with Co-Conspirator 2, the Vice President, the Vice President’s Chief of Staff, and the Vice President’s Counsel for the purpose of convincing the Vice President, based on the Defendant’s knowingly false claims of election fraud, that the Vice President should reject or send to the states Biden’s legitimate electoral votes, rather than count them. The Defendant deliberately excluded his White House Counsel from the meeting because the White House Counsel previously had pushed back on the Defendant’s false claims of election fraud.
the Defendant encouraged supporters to travel to Washington on January 6, and he set the false expectation that the Vice President had the authority to and might use his ceremonial role at the certification proceeding to reverse the election outcome in the Defendant’s favor, including issuing the following Tweets:
At 11:06 a.m., “The Vice President has the power to reject fraudulently chosen electors.” This was within 40 minutes of the Defendant’s earlier reminder, “See you in D.C.”
At 5:05 p.m., “Washington is being inundated with people who don’t want to see an election victory stolen …. Our Country has had enough, they won’t take it anymore! We hear you (and love you) from the Oval Office."
That's not relevantly obstructing the count. The count not only could proceed, it did. The only thing that actually obstructed it, for a short while, was the break in.
I agree that he was trying to change the outcome of the count, by getting Pence, whose role was ministerial, to exercise discretion. Changing outcomes is not "obstructing", and, sadly, abusing ministerial roles to exercise policy discretion is pretty common in Washington.
Read the text of the law I posted.
Who died and made you boss? You're more "Castro' than "Sarcastr-0, YOU read the text of the law I posted, oh you won't?? and you're surprised nobody reads yours? What a Moe-roon(HT B. Bunny)
Frank
His brain is gone.
Your brain never was
Brett she is literally just copy and pasting Jack’s arguments as if they were the Single Source of Truth.
She is incapable of any analysis or reasoning on the matter.
You’re trying arguing against CTRL+C CTRL+V with rhetoric, you’re wasting your time.
Idiot.
"I agree that [Trump] was trying to change the outcome of the count, by getting Pence, whose role was ministerial, to exercise discretion."
Brett, you are hoisted by your own petard. (Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 4.) One who attempts to corruptly obstruct an official proceeding is just as culpable as one who accomplishes such obstruction, per 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2).
COUNT THREE (Obstruction of, and Attempt to Obstruct, an Official
Proceeding—18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(c)(2), 2)
The law, in relevant part
(c)Whoever corruptly—
(1)alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or
other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the
object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;
or
(2)otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official
proceeding, or attempts to do so
The alleged facts: From on or about November 14, 2020, through on or about January 7, 2021, in the District of Columbia and elsewhere, the Defendant, DONALD J. TRUMP, attempted to, and did, corruptly obstruct and impede an official proceeding, that is, the certification of the electoral vote.
Again, this requires Trump himself to have been a co-conspirator in the break in to the Capitol. Does the prosecutor have actual evidence of that?
No, it doesn't. Read the indictment.
I'm reading "obstruct and impede" in a narrow sense here. It can't mean "anything that makes the job more difficult".
You have excluded the middle
Which middle would that be?
Between violence and all speech and acts that make things more difficulty.
The law is neither so narrow nor so broad.
You’re completely ignoring the “or attempts to do so” part. Trump is a loser who couldn’t make his scheme to overturn the election work, but that doesn’t mean he gets a pass because his attempt failed.
That’s why the law of attempt exists; we don’t want people to get as many shots as they want at attempted murder. Or attempted subversion of democratic elections for the top job.
When did Trump attempt to be a co-conspirator in the break-in at the Capitol?
Could just as well apply to Hillary Rodman/Senescent Joe
As usual, the comments here are almost entirely useless. It has been my unfortunate observation that once people are invested in the partisanship, little else matters, and legal discussions fall by the wayside. So there's not much of a point discussing the legal issues, although, for what it's worth, Prof. Somin is simply looking at the classic criminal law 101 issues- retribution and deterrence (rehabilitation, obviously, is not really considered). Personally, I agree with both, in that we want to deter this in the future, and I personally think there is a strong Kantian justification for punishing this behavior from a moral and societal standpoint.
To this day, I remain thankful for the fact that there remained enough people in enough places that had the integrity to understand that the peaceful transfer of power under the rule of law is what really distinguishes a functioning democracy. Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, you should hopefully understand that the real carrot in the system is not the promise of winning every election forever; this is not College Football, and you are not Alabama.
Instead, it's the promise that when you lose an election, you know that there will be another election, and that you will have the opportunity to contest it and win that election (perhaps after modifying your policies to take into account why you lost).
The normalization of the concept of clinging on to power, and the rationalizations for it, are the truly worrying thing. The first president wisely understood that it could not, and should not, all be about him.
We cannot, and should, normalize this type of behavior. Much like the apocryphal frog in a boiling pot of water, we simply became inured to the cavalcade of norm-breaking (no release of tax forms for a candidate, inability to say that he would allow a peaceful transfer of power, etc. etc. etc.) until, at the very end, we literally had him attempting to conjure up fake votes and pressure his Vice President to overturn an election.
As a general rule, I am very much against prosecuting prior political leaders. One very important exception to that rule is when the act accused of strikes at the heart of the orderly transfer of power- because that is the very essence of a functioning democracy. If we do not deter that behavior, then there is nothing but personal integrity that ensures it will not happen again. And we literally just saw how close that issue became, and how little integrity some individuals had.
Anyway, I expect that will persuade exactly 0% of the usual suspects. Carry on.
Are you talking about what Hillary and her politically aligned conspirators did to Trump in 2016 and onwards after he won?
Were those the norms you want to preserve, where a bunch of federal agencies actively work to sabotage a sitting President?
If that’s the norm, I say burn it all down.
Loki likes to parade his alleged virtue. At extreme, pompous length.
Lots of words to say "One very important exception to that rule is when" Donald Trump is involved.
Bob’s post is the textual representation of Bob pouting with his chin on his chest and his arms crossed tightly across it for which the caption would be “He thinks he’s so smart… but he’s not!”
loki13, we might not see eye to eye on some contemporary issues of the day, but I appreciated the thoughtfulness of your comment.
I think we have further to fall = If we do not deter that behavior, then there is nothing but personal integrity that ensures it will not happen again.
You made a good point about one's personal integrity creating self-restraint. I would love to know what happens to personal integrity when people leave home and go to DC. I have seen it in my congressional district, with the last 5 congressmen. They are changed men when they leave here and go there. Only one of them seemed unaffected, and he limited himself to three terms and got out of there.
It's hard when they go to Washington. I mean that sincerely.
I still remember reading Honest Graft- it was an absolutely devastating account by a WSJ reporter who was granted insane access to Rep. Tony Coehlo (Rep. Ca., and the then-head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee). The book was eye-opening, in that showed exactly how money and fundraising completely and inexorably corrupted the policies of politicians.
And this was 1988. It's gotten much worse since then.
The fundamental issue is this- there are two types of politicians; those that seek office because they genuinely want to "do good" for the country (however that "good" might be defined), and those who don't.
For those who don't, the battle is lost immediately. But even those who want to do good? Well, they are in a constant battle, because the majority of the time they are raising money and talking to the big money donors about their interests. And more often than not, they have to keep making compromises; more often than not, they eventually lose sight of the reason that they wanted to be elected in the first place.
The loss of integrity is almost never something that happens all at once; instead, it's something that erodes over time.
Of all the things you mentioned, the erosion of personal integrity of those good people after going to DC is what would make me weep. That is the truly saddest part.
If they want to go to DC they never had "personal integrity".
No normal person becomes a politician. They are all freaks in one way or another.
I understand why you say that, Bob from Ohio. I am not quite sure I agree with how you characterize people who go to DC. But I will readily concede: Those people are not cut from the same cloth.
I will simply say that the gentleman who term-limited himself in my congressional district left DC with his personal integrity intact. He had a LOT to say about hypocritical politicians and their hypocrisy vis a vis Hurricane Sandy disaster aid. He was quite pointed and direct.
I have that person blocked, so I don't know what was said (even though, honestly, I do ... because that's why I blocked him) ...
But in my experience, many politicians - not all - but many genuinely want to do something "good" for the country. On both the left and the right. They might disagree as to what is good, but they entered politics because they were wired that way.
I think that it is DC itself that causes the problems. Because it is so very hard to get anything done. And because the constant pressure of raising money (which is what they have to spend the majority of their time doing) and looking to the next election consumes them.
I don't think that there was any halcyon age, by the way. Complaints about the politics of Washington are as old as DC itself. I do, however, think that the problems are as bad as they have ever been, and I don't think that there are any easy solutions.
I think that it is DC itself that causes the problems.
Yes.
"gentleman who term-limited himself in my congressional district left DC with his personal integrity intact"
Exceptions to every rule. Very, very few though I'd say.
Well, he was independently wealthy. He was not going to be 'bought'. And he did not particularly give a shit about re-election. So he was honest going to DC, he stayed honest, and moved on with his life. And that is what I appreciated the most. He kept his personal integrity. As an aside, he has since departed the People's Republic of NJ for a lower tax state (TX, I believe).
The current congressman was (is?) a good man, but I can see the transmogrification taking place with him from his exposure to the malarial air of DC. Creeping haughtiness is the first symptom, I think.
Idiot.
Hear, hear.
Amen!
I hve been involved with party politics D and R for decades, and find loki's comment very accurate as well as very discouraging
Yeah, loki13 really did capture it. I mean, it is so bad that the word association I have with DC is 'cesspool'.
Well said.
Trump failed to illegally hold onto power after an election he lost. If there is deterrence and retribution for his failed attempt, the country might be good for decades or centuries before someone tries it again. Washington’s voluntary relinquishment of power and emphasis on orderly transfer of power is celebrated as foundational to our country; Trump’s unlawful behavior should be seen as the antithesis of that, and deserving of retribution and deterrence.
If not, the world will have to look elsewhere for good examples of functional democracies. This is about far more than Trump the person; it’s about the future of the entire democratic model as a viable government structure instead of authoritarian autocracy.
There are plenty examples of non-functional democracies where the power of government is turned against political opponents.
He's a shit. This was all a clown show. Now can we watch the far more insideous misuse of power as above? This is an actual, ongoing present danger, not an evening's popcorn before CNN.
What was the deterrence and retribution agaionst the Cunt®™ or her allies in the Department of Justice?
Were they made an example of?
What Trump did was righteous payback for what was done to him!
What, exactly, was done to Trump by Hillary and the DoJ? Muller issued a report? Oh no a report!
You've fully disappeared into the cult if you think the issuing of reports is at all similar to sacking the Capitol.
"What Trump did was righteous payback for what was done to him!"
Ah yes, I remember the defenses to criminal liability from the bar exam.
Self-defense, reasonable mistake, insanity, diminished capacity, righteous payback.
Anyway, I expect that will persuade exactly 0% of the usual suspects.
Of course it won’t. In fact, it looks like there wasn’t even an attempt to be persuasive, or even to forward an argument.
“We know Trump is guilty, even if it means lying about what he said and did, we will do everything in our power to put him in jail. Why won’t they just listen and let us throw Trump in jail?
Persuasive /s
we literally had him attempting to conjure up fake votes
we literally just saw how close that issue became
Someone literally doesn't know what literally means.
I appreciate that you not only quoted the relevant part, you provided a perfect illustrative example.
Thank you!
Literally?
So persuasive.
What most disappointed me was the cowardice of Republican senators who could have preserved the norms by convicting Trump and disqualifying him from running for office. McConnell gave a great speech on the floor describing what Trump did but voted to acquit. That really pissed me off.
COUNT FOUR (Conspiracy Against Rights—18 U.S.C. § 241)
The law, in relevant part:
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;
The alleged facts: From on or about November 14, 2020, through on or about January 20, 2021, in the District of Columbia and elsewhere, the Defendant, DONALD J. TRUMP, did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with co-conspirators, known and unknown to the Grand Jury, to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of a right and privilege secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States—that is, the right to vote, and to have one’s vote counted.
You get an "A" in copy and paste and a gold star.
But nobody has a right to vote for President under the constitution and laws of the United States. The business of ordinary people having any involvement at all in the appointment of presidential electors is a mere custom established by state legislatures, arising entirely from state statutory law. State legislatures could equally well assign the task to a commission, or simply do it themselves. And as Chiafolo v. Washington held, presidential electors have a mere ministerial duty to mark a ballot exactly as instructed and can be summarily replaced or prosecuted if they don’t follow instructions. This ministerial duty is hardly a “right” to vote in any meaningful sense.
Get out of here with your literal interpretation of the Constitution!!!!
And, yet again, proving this requires proving that Trump, himself, was a co-conspirator in the January 6th break in to the Capitol.
If he has proof of that, why isn't he charging incitement and insurrection?
An argument that Trump might be guilty of more serious charges is hardly an argument that he’s not guilty of the charges that have been made.
Like I've said, if the prosecutor can prove that Trump actually was a co-conspirator in the January 6th break in to the Capitol, not just imply, or "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?", actual proof of communications, then he's got Trump dead to rights. Hang him high.
But if he's got that, he ought to be charging Trump with that. And we've seen no evidence at all of it, and from Trump's perspective it would have been a cosmically stupid thing to have done. Not stupid in a "nobody with ethics would do that" sense, stupid in an "Obviously would hurt his interests" way.
Your strawman requirement is not required. Re-read the statutes I posted. The actual violence on Jan 06 was hardly the only buncha crimes here.
"to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate"
The only violence on January 6th was the riot. Threatening electoral consequences, "The voters won't like it if you do that" doesn't count, or else all of politics would be illegal.
Violence? You are reading in an element not in the text.
Likely because Smith or Garland think it is unwise to make a charge which threatens to end legally the political career of a politician who enjoys the support of tens of millions of volatile fools.
Count 4 looks like bullshit to me.
I am very busy today, so I will just post here what I posted on another site.
Tthe conspiracy against rights, 18 USC 241, does not fit what Trump is alleged to have done:
That works if a group of people try to stop people from voting (as often happened to blacks in the South.)
There is no allegation Trump or anyone else did this to any voter. Instead, what is alleged is that they tried to inhibit "the right to vote, and have one's vote counted."
Apart from the fact that the latter has not, to my knowledge, been recognized as a right, you also have to intimidate a different person from the one who holds the right. Meaning, John Smith votes, and then Jack Doe counts the vote. You have to intimidate Jack Doe into not counting John Smith's vote. But the statute clearly states that the intimidated person has to be the same person whose rights are violated.
So that is one problem with Count 4 that I see.
His effort to do whatever Count 4 contemplates that he did started, according to the indictment, on November 14th. After the election. So who did he try to deprive the vote of? What votes did he attempt to keep from being counted?
Count 4 looks like something the prosecutor contrived to bulk up the indictment, which is unfortunate.
The counting is when the Senate counts the electoral votes on Jan. 6. Which actually is three steps removed from the vote -- you vote in your state (or DC) for a slate of electors*, the electors then vote for the candidate, then that is sent to the Senate, which counts and tabulates the votes. That, at least, is what formally happens, although usually we know the result on Election Night, and the rest is theater.
Assuming that there is a right to "have your vote counted," if you interfere with the Senate tabulation, you are indirectly depriving the voters in that right. That at least is the theory. I am dubious about it for the two reasons I have stated.
______________
*Most people don't realize this. They think they are voting for John Doe Candidate, when in fact they are voting for Slate of Electors Who Have Promised To Vote For John Doe Candidate. One of the quirks of our electoral system.
Not even clear that the Electors are required to case their votes that way. In 1976, one elector who was on the Gerald Ford ballot decided to vote for Ronald Reagan. No one challenged it, since it made no difference, as Carter won anyway.
And the attempt to interfere with that is covered quite well in Count 1.
Count 4 smacks of overcharging, but the feds do that so frequently I don't think it's "getting" Trump. Those assholes do that to everybody.
Except, of course, for a recent notorious case that they decided for some reason to refrain from doing so.
We know the reason they decided not do so there.
Bored Lawyer, are you familiar with the following:
Anderson v. United States, 417 U.S. 211, 227 (1974).
Great thing for a presidential campaign. "I am too crazy to convict, but I can still be president."
Franz Kafka is jealous of the 21st century.
I was not. Will try to look it up.
Thank you for the cite. Anderson is part of a line of cases that hold (a) there is a right to have one's vote honestly counted and (b) that right is violated, and the criminal statute violated, if someone tampers with a vote count in any way, such as by stuffing the ballot box with fake ballots, or throwing out ballots, etc. And it does not matter if it made a difference to the result.\
I assume that the statutory hook for that is the verb "injure."
So there is a colorable argument that it applies in the Trump case. The main difference is Trump tried to affect the counting of electoral votes in the Senate, which is a couple of steps removed from people voting on Election Day. IMO, that should not make a difference, but it's grist for Trump's mill.
Another technical argument is that that statute requires an injury to
"any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States." There is no federal right to vote for Electors, that is a matter of state law. Delegated to the State Legislature by the US Constitution. The legislature could decide to pick Electors some other way, but none do.
Again, IMO, that should not make a difference here, but Trump's lawyers may argue it should.
Prof Somin,
What is the limiting principle behind this interpretation of the fraud and obstruction statutes?
Somin never answers comments.
Rarely, anyway. I've seen him reply to early comments pointing out a typo or bad link, at least.
Whatever the Supreme Court wants. It's gone far beyond the common law definition of fraud.
Can I get a "mute author" button so I don't have to see the idiotic ramblings of this marxist moron anymore. Seriously his only thoughts are "immigration always good" and "Republicans bad" and he will use any lie to promote those positions.
Marxist! LOL.
The massive irony in someone calling Ilya Somin a Marxist is doubtlessly lost on many of the people commenting here.
At a certain point, we just see pejoratives ("Marxist," "Woke,") tossed around that say infinitely more about the person using them than it does about the person they are describing.
Loki13:
First, always good to see you post here, although I understand you backing away from this place.
Second, yeah, the guy who repeatedly calls for Labor Day to be replaced by Victims of Communism Day is a real "Marxist."
Somin is, by a large margin, the most libertarian poster on the VC. It's not even close.
Okay. That's not quite true. Sasha "It's better to protect property rights than to save humanity from an actual imminent asteroid impact" Volokh may be as libertarian, but he hardly ever posts. 🙂
I would settle for swapping the number of Blackmun posts and the number of Kerr posts.
I enjoy Professor Kerr's posts a lot. One in particular, from a few years ago, spoke about CJ Marshall having a trial where the limits of 4A(?) and 5A(?) were argued by counsel. It was a fascinating read. If you can locate that one...read it.
Yeah, I miss Prof. Kerr's posts quite a bit, but I am not, at all, surprised by his decision to post much less frequently here.
Your browser has a "mute website" button. Actually, it's the default setting, I understand.
....good joke. No notes.
By the way, what happened to the other twelve lokis? Or are you just 10 years old? Or 110!
I ate the other twelve in the womb.
I hope that was between 50 and 1 years ago.
Given that the post-author’s name is at the top, you already have that feature. It’s called “scroll down past the guy you don’t want to read.”
(Prof. Volokh, the site would be improved if you mandated use of READ MORE for posts that exceed a certain size, say 200 words.)
This is breaking:
"Devon Archer Testifies Joe Biden Met with Moscow Mayor's Wife in Georgetown – She Then Wired $3.5 Million to Hunter – And Then Joe Biden Kept Her Off Sanctions List"
Time for Jack Smith to indict Trump again!
Let's add some dates. Hunter Biden met her in 2014. That's when the payment was made. Joe Biden was Vice President.
Then we go through the whole Trump administration and nothing happens to her.
Then Biden is elected and nothing happens to her.
Add to the timeline when the government placed sanctions on Russians, and note that this oligarch wasn't sanctioned.
How could you not make that connection? Biden got paid NOT to sanction her. She didn't get sanctioned.
You're like "SEE!! Nothing happened to her!!! neener neener"
What's notable is the performative belief that the entire apparatus of the government can be smoothly and effortlessly brought to bear to persecute a rich and powerful political enemy, while all efforts by Republicans, whether as opportunism or retaliation or both, to do the same to Hunter Biden, and by extension his father, generate nothing but noise.
Nige-bot pines for Hunter Biden's "Little Hunter"
Look, we all know that he did what he was accused of, and that what he is accused of is criminal. It's merely a question of whether Trump's supporters here and elsewhere are going to admit publicly that in their eyes,
the kingTrump can do no wrong, or whether they feel obliged to defend him against those of us who are un-Maga-ed.We all know that he probably did Count 1.
I don't see how Count 4 is possible to have been done.
Counts 2&3 are things that he did but is jawboning people a crime?
Jawboning people to do something illegal is often illegal.
Will nobody rid me if this meddlesome priest? Just askin'
Well, apparently it isn’t when the FBI does it to Facebook or Twitter. Oops, I mean X.
You’re flailing.
81 million people voted for Joe Biden. Turnip and his co-conspirators attempted to deprive them of their votes. It’s quite simple.
I do want to correct something I said in the other thread. Count I charges a conspiracy to defraud the United States. (Yes, Sarcastro, you have read the indictment to see what part of the statute is charged. Uncharged portions of the statute do not count.)
I had argued that under the Bridgegate and similar cases, fraud is only when you try to obtain money or property. That is indeed the law for wire fraud and mail fraud.
However, the statute here punishes conspiracies to defraud the United States. The Supreme Court has “stated repeatedly” that the “defraud” clause of § 371 is not limited to common-law fraud but “reaches any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of Government.” Tanner v. United States, 483 U.S. 107, 128, 107 S.Ct. 2739, 97 L.Ed.2d 90 (1987). See Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182, 188, 44 S. Ct. 511, 512, 68 L. Ed. 968 (1924); Haas v. Henkel, 216 U.S. 462, 479, 30 S.Ct. 249, 253, 54 L.Ed. 569 (1910).
There is a tension between the two lines of cases, but there it is. Under current SCOTUS precedent, Trump cannot rely on the Bridgegate line of cases.
The thing is, even the more expansive theory can not extend so far into constitutionally protected conduct. Neither Hammerschmidt, Tanner, nor Haas v. Henkel, 216 U.S> 462 (1910) , deal with the use of lies to obtain a political advantage.
FWIW, Andy McCarthy seems to argue that the Bridgegate line of cases indirectly overruled the Hammerschmidt/Haas line of cases.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/anti-indictment-and-pro-editorial/
Truth is, it's a problem. The wire fraud statute punishes a "scheme or artifice to defraud" using wire transmission. The mail fraud statute uses similar "to defraud" language. The statute Trump is being prosecuted for in Count I punishes a conspiracy "to defraud the United States."
One would think that "to defraud" has the same meaning in both statutes. But to prosecute Trump on Count I, you have to insist they do not -- for wire fraud, there has to be money or property. For the US, impairing the function of the Govt. is enough.
But that is where we are. So this is an open legal question. Which I am sure will be raised in this case.
The thing is, it seems as if actually "impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of Government" is not a crime, but a conspiracy to do the same is a crime.
The earlier line in cases in tension with the Bridgegate line do not in any case deal with acts meant to gain a political advantage.
The thing is, it seems as if actually “impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of Government” is not a crime, but a conspiracy to do the same is a crime.
That is likely covered by other statutes, such as the other ones Trump is being charged with. And in any case, so what? Conspiracy has always been thought to be worse, because you are involving multiple people in an organized effort to violate the law.
The earlier line in cases in tension with the Bridgegate line do not in any case deal with acts meant to gain a political advantage.
Why should that make a difference? The Senate counting electoral votes is a lawful function of the government. Why should it matter that Trump did it to gain office, as opposed to money?
And Hammerschmidt was a conviction for handing out literature about how to avoid the draft. That is political, not pecuniary, albeit in a different way.
Hi Ilya,
Normally, I agree with your columns -- particularly your excellent work on immigration.
But on this one, I think you have just erred. The key issue really is to prove that Trump "knew" he lost. You try to argue that really that fact doesn't matter because we can use a kind of "reasonable man" standard, like we would a thief -- the thief SHOULD know that the jewels he/she stole were not his/hers. But that logic does not work in this case. In this case, the primary conduct that is considered criminal here is fraud -- i.e. lying. He isn't being accused of engaging in theft/violence/threats of violence/extortion, etc. All his actions would be legal if they were for "non-corrupt" purposes -- i.e. talking with lawyers, making speeches, trying to persuade election officials of something. There is no "reasonable man" standard for those actions. Those actions only become corrupt because his purposes were corrupt -- i.e. he knew he lost but was trying to overturn the election. But if he actually believes he won, then his purposes aren't corrupt. Of course, we could say we want to criminalize facially legal actions (like speech, talking to lawyers about far-fetched legal theories) because the doer believes unreasonable things, but I have to say, I would not want to live in that world.
So that means we're left with the evidence that he knew he was lying. You say there is extensive evidence. I would say it's paltry. You provide literally the only two pieces of direct evidence that exist. The stronger one is the comment to Mark Meadows that he didn't want people to know he lost. The comment to Pence about being too honest may just be Trump's way to berate Pence. But both pieces are evidence would be easy to refute. I would not be surprised that if you asked Meadows and Pence on the stand -- " do you believe Donald Trump thinks he won the election", they will say "yes". I believe Donald Trump actually believes he won, or what's enough -- I think there is a reasonable chance he believes it -- and that's the source of reasonable doubt. He's wrong about his election views, but there is a reasonable chance he believes it. And since he didn't do anything that would be illegal using a "reasonable man" standard -- like stealing, or threatening violence, the whole case falls apart.
So two pieces of evidence isn't enough? How many do you think it should take? A baker's dozen?
Beyond a reasonable doubt seems like a good evidentiary standard, as opposed to 'this could remotely possible if you twist and contort the meaning to have the worst possible interpretation in all instances'.
I think you are skipping over Somin's better argument -- that even if Trump actually believed some of what he said, it was not a good faith or reasonable belief.
jdoeford : “…. it was not a good faith or reasonable belief ….”
Or any belief at all. It was just noise disguising Trump power play to steal the election. That’s why he never had a consistent explanation of his “belief” from one moment to the next. That’s why anecdotes of “fraud” could be disproved to his face repeatedly but would still appear in every third speech. Hell, that’s why he started talking fraud months before the election. Trump was reading the polls and already prepping the chumps for his post-election moves.
I bet Smith has even more evidence of Trump sneering at his own fraud claims. A scam artist is usually proud of the clarity behind his brazen lying, and that’s always been Trump: A grifter looking for marks. Here’s another statement in the indictment that perfectly describes this particular hustle :
“Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen”
There was never any sincere belief. It was all just noise along with tactics to block or delay, so Trump could get the states to either change or ignore their vote counts.
Exactly. Whether Trump “honestly” or “actually” believed he won isn’t the point. There’s no way he believed that, but leave that aside. The question is whether such a belief would have been reasonable.
Say I shoot someone in the chest, the victim dies, and I’m charged with murder. And let’s say that, at trial, I’m able to prove I honestly, actually, believed shooting the victim in the chest couldn’t kill him. I’m still guilty of murder. Because it’s not a reasonable belief.
Here, the evidence Trump didn’t even have an actual belief that he won is compelling. But even if you assume he did believe it, there’s no way it was reasonable for him to do so.
Prosecuting head of political opposition = downgrade in credit rating ?
Simple as.
CNN: Stocks sink after historic US credit rating downgrade August 2, 2023
Fitch, one of the three global credit rating agencies, stripped the world’s largest economy of its top-tier AAA rating, citing an “erosion of governance.” (Bloomberg)
Better let Trump get away with it. For the economy.
Fitch’s stated reason for the credit rating cut was the constant fighting every time the debt limit comes up. They’re seeing it as creating a higher chance of default. AAA credit has to have virtually no credit risk.
It's due to the fighting when that comes up NEVER resulting in controlling spending.
Have you considered Fitch may not agree with you on spending?
Fitch gives no shits about spending. Or taxes. Although I imagine they’d like it if the relationship between ours was a little better.
They would like for us to quit threatening to default regularly. That’s why they downgraded.
I'd really like it if Democrats would stop threatening default, too. The right wing position on not raising the debt ceiling, after all, is that default is constitutionally off the table, so the only available response to hitting the debt ceiling is balancing the budget.
It's the left who keep insisting they'd rather default if it comes to it.
You'd really like the Democrats to pay the ransom for the release of your hostage.
A lot more flop sweat in here than is usual for a Wednesday. Here’s what’s going to happen:
Turnip will be tried and convicted in all three current jurisdictions, NY, Miami, and DC, on most to all of the counts. He will also be tried and convicted in Atlanta in the same manner. He will go to prison where he will live until he dies.
Rudy, Eastman, and Clark will be tried and convicted on most to all of their counts. They will all go to prison. Rudy will probably die there. Dunno about the others.
There’s no world in which 71 counts in three (soon 71+ and four) separate jurisdictions are brought against a former potus unless the evidence and testimony is as heavily supported as is humanly possible. Big Baby is going to die in prison and all the furrowed brows and dumbass legal takes and screeches of “unconstitutional this, bias that” and gallons of spittle in the land can prevent it. You losers can punch walls and stomp your feet all you want.
If you like a civil war, this is how you get one.
"Rudy, Eastman, and Clark will be tried and convicted on most to all of their counts."
What counts?
Nope. Was never going to happen and the fear after the results of Jan 06 mean it’s double not gonna happen.
You will post how revolt is coming soon for the next decade though.
I highly doubt it in light of recent history. But regardless, we know how that would turn out, keyboard warrior.
Nope. Big Baby will die in prison and you folks will continue to wallow in your own shit and piss and whine and wail but the rest of the world will move on without you.
No way is he going to prison. Sentences for these crimes will always be commuted for him.
Yes. Even Biden will commute.
Yeah its getting close to the time we should all be out in the streets.
To be sure as Jefferson said in the Declaration:
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
Having a second successive election where our choices are Joe Biden and Donald Trump is an insult no free people should endure.
You could always nominate someone else, somone who didn't try to overthrow the government.
OtisAH- as heavily supported as is humanly possible
As much evidence as there is for unicorns and flying pigs. It's all either made up, or stretched beyond all recognition.
Turnip will die in prison.
Senescent Joe will die before his term is over (Again, I'm not Lee Harvey, just a simple Physician who's seen thousands of dying peoples) Cognitively he died a few years ago the "Dog Faced Pony Soldier"(has any "Conspirator" ever uttered that phrase, except in commenting how bizarre that was for a Presidential Candidate to utter that phrase) The Parkinsonism (rhymes with...) gait, facies (I'd tell you) the Chevy Chase tumbles that are even better than Chevy Chase ever did,
He's got Parkinson's Disease, probably Alzheimers (they overlap) and's had several Craniotomies for Aneurysms,
and he wasn't a Genius with his baseline Brain.
He's living on borrowed time (we all are) Brainstem is last to go, next will be a Hospitalization for "Pneumonia" which occurs due to inability to handle respiratory secretions.
Frank (a Doctor but never played one on TV)
Which brings up some interesting (frightening) possibilities.
Say he is the presidential nominee with Harris as VP and he kicks off on Halloween 2024? Thanks to stupid fucking early voting (what is the meaning of ELECTION DAY?) he will have gotten millions of votes already. Would in person voters vote for a dead man?
Turnip will die in prison.
Don'thold your breath. And, even if he does, so what? I don't want him to be President. If it's Trump v Biden again, I would prefer Trump over Biden, but that's like preferring a pile of horse shit over a pile of dog shit. They're both shit.“important to deter future presidents and other high-ranking officials from similar misconduct in the future”
In the real world, the lesson will be not to half-ass it like Trump did.
Amen to that.
What does whole assing it look like, Bob?
Read some history, you can figure it out.
Not seeing it Bob. Maybe stop being coy and cite what event you think is now gonna happen.
A specific future event? I have no idea.
So you don’t know what whole assign it looks like.
Just inchoate threats.
Its not a threat dude.
You could say Trump is a proto-Maruis, his retributive indictments and the other January 6 persecutions are a sanitized form of Sulla's proscriptions, a later Caesar will act differently.
Bob from Ohio is just another all-talk, obsolete culture war casualty who hates the people -- the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- who have made our remaining bigoted and backward right-wingers nothing more than inconsequential misfits in modern America.
He'll mumble vaguely about "one of these days" and "the middle will not hold" or being "pushed too far" and "Second Amendment solutions," but he's too cowardly and weak to do anything about it other than (1) continue complying with the preferences of better Americans he disdains, (2) talk a lot, and (3) await replacement.
Jeezo, "Coach" do you ever come up with an original post??
Speaking of "Klingers" there was news about one today, he's a little bit above your level of Criminality, so probably won't be joining you at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
First week of August, I'm sure you miss the smells/sounds/ "Oklahoma Drills", "Suicides", "Coach Sandusky choosing his "Special Recruit"
PITTSBURGH (AP) — The gunman who stormed a synagogue in the heart of Pittsburgh’s Jewish community and killed 11 worshippers will be sentenced to death for perpetrating the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history, a jury decided Wednesday.
Frank
Dear Diary,
Ugh, Diary, honestly, I just can't even with Bob from Ohio anymore! Like, hello, welcome to the 21st century, Bob! He's acting like he got stuck in a time warp from some ancient, pointless culture war. It's all sooo over, but he's just not getting the memo. He's basically becoming this sad, irrelevant relic who just hates on all the cool progressive, liberal-libertarian types that are actually doing things, actually shaping our world. I mean, what century is he living in?
But it's not just that he's totally out of touch, he also won't stop muttering these weird, vague things about "one of these days" and "the middle will not hold". And he's always going on about being "pushed too far" and coming up with his "Second Amendment solutions", like what even is that about? Honestly, he wouldn't know a solution if it hit him in the face.
And let's be real, he's way too chicken to do anything other than: (1) stick to the rules made by the very people he's sooooo against, (2) yap on and on and on about his old-fashioned ideas, and (3) wait around for someone, anyone, to step in and take over.
It's just soooo tedious, Diary. I can't believe I'm stuck dealing with such a drama queen. Why can't he just get with the times?
Anyway, that's enough about Bob for today. I need a break.
TTYL, Diary.
XOXO
If any of you right-wing stains on society decide you want to go The Full LaVoy, be my guest.
"Thirteen members of Biden’s campaign staff donated to bail and — rioters — they’re getting them out of jail. Looters — they got them out of jail. And his running mate, Kamala, urged their supporters to do the same thing.”
Someone help a Brother out?? 1: Can't find the Common-Law Harris indictment anywhere. Or B: Senator Poke-a-hontas's fraud charges (Certainly claiming to be a Native Amurican violates one of the Great White Father's laws) or ii: Senator "Danang Dick" Blumenthal's for claiming to be a Vietnam Vet (I'd sentence him to show up at a VFW)
Frank "Wattabout by Wattaboutism????"
You post without honor.
Thank you for your service.
Attacking the messenger as usual, is your last name really "Castro"????. (I've known a few "Castros" and they always make a point that they're not related to "That" Castro
And done like a true-never-served (I know, "Homo, much better now") Non-hacker (I hacked like a Mo-Fo)
But seriously folks, only reason Hunter Biden didn't indict "45" for falsely claiming to be an American Indian is he never claimed to be an American Indian.
Didn't Poke-a-Hontas "Profit" from her false claim?? sounds like an 18 USC something or other.
Frank
Eat any good books lately?
It's "gooks" and no, I haven't, jeezo, weren't you the one criticizing me for not talking good Engrish??
And with all the "I-ANAL"s in the room, what Federal law would you indicted Ted Kennedy for in 1969???? I keep looking for "Impersonating a Human" but can't find it, little help??
Frank
Mmmm pickled gook ears.
Frank, sarcasto is just jealous. You are funny and the "sarcastic" poster is not.
I haven't researched the question, but a federal statute applicable to Ted Kennedy's conduct at Chappaquiddick in 1969 doesn't come readily to mind.
I also haven't looked up the applicable state statutes, but involuntary manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide -- states typically have criminalized one or the other but not both -- would likely apply to his leaving the car after it submerged and failure to report the incident to authorities. Ms. Kopechne would likely have survived if she had gotten aid sooner.
How about the ones they charged the Minneapolis Cop with? and He didn't even kill the guy, Senator Kennedy did kill the girl (and no Autopsy?? does Ted Kennedy's Bastard Child lie a smoldering in the Grave??") Technology's improved, be pretty easy to find out and "protect" the Senator's memory.
Frank
I surmise that you are referring to 18 U.S.C. § 242. That statute is inapposite because Senator Kennedy was not then acting under color of law.
"the Colored Lawyers ain't got nuthin to do with it!!!!!!"
(for the Un-ed-jew-ma-cated) nothing race-ist, it's a reference to Sheriff Buford T. Justice (Jackie Gleason, and if you didn't know that you suck) in "Smoky and the Bandit" answering some Colored Sheriff's question, but lets go to the IMDB (Frank down with IMDB)
Sheriff Branford : The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice : The goddamn Germans got nothin' to do with it.
Frank "gonna need a car, a fast car (pause as he looks at little Enis's cash) Faster than that"
Jonathan Turley Guts the Jan 6 Indictment Against Trump
https://www.townhallmail.com/bbfkpntjkkcypjkjyjpftysqqzyqqjztbbfnmpcppzzzdqj_yvklvkmkvkmnsgvmvccggf.html
Ilya has already forgotten about AL GORE. The extent he and his operatives attempted to steal the election in Florida, and the subsequent "not my president" and "stolen election" diatribes for the next 8 years is comparable if not worse than what is "alleged" here. I know more than a few people's absentee ballots thrown out due to Gore's operatives.
All of that is gibberish. It’s not even good fan fiction.
It's not, he left out the part about AlGore fucking his maid (ask Tipper, she remembers)
So true. Remember how Gore filed one lawsuit asking for a hand recount in a race that came down to 300 votes in one state? Then he lost 5-4 at the Supreme Court, said “it’s time for me to go” and said everyone should acknowledge Bush as President? That's literally ten hundred billion times worse than anything Trump is even accused of.
Hi Ilya,
I wanted to present another more legalistic kind of argument against this indictment. The claim is made the Trump "tried to overthrow the duly elected president". But did he? Elections aren't just about counting votes. They are about the rules of the process. So in fact, it's the electoral college votes that matter. Really all Trump did was use the legal process to challenge those results. His main co-conspirators were lawyers not armed thugs. They concocted legal theories and attempted to push them. Is that an attempt to overthrow the government? No because they were using legal processes. If, say, Pence had said "yes I agree. I won't certify certain states", there would have been a law suit, no doubt, from the states whose election results Pence didn't certify. No doubt that would have gone to the supreme court. And the supreme court could have decided whether Pence had the right to not certify or not. LEt's say that the supreme court said that Pence did have the right, and that led to Trump being president. Then let's say some voters go before the supreme court and say "my votes weren't counted. My constitutional rights were violated". OK. And let's say the supreme court says " we don't agree. Trump is actually the duly elected president". Then in some clear sense, Trump WOULD be the winner. He simply processed through the full set of election rules. It's not different than saying that Trump won in 2016 because he won the electoral college but not the popular vote. Or that Bush won in 2000. All the matters ARE the rules and those rules are enforced by courts. The only way Trump becomes someone trying to overthrow the election is if he starts going around the legal channels -- threatening Pence with violence, bribing him, or the supreme court, etc.
Your analysis seems to leave out that if a person knowingly employs lawyers to present false facts through “legal process” (however broadly defined), that can be prosecutable fraud.
Also I don't think the term "legal process" even captures the alleged fake elector scheme.
Hi Ilya,
Another comment: why do we want "retribution" to be a goal of the criminal justice system? Deterrence, yes. But retribution -- that sounds like revenge. I don't see the value in that. Deterrence is important to reduce the likelihood of a bad action from happening again. Another goal of the system should be to make harmed parties whole. In this case, I'm not sure any party ended up being harmed. This is mostly a case about an attempted harm.
You're posting up a storm, aren't you?
This is basic criminal law. The three principles behind criminal law, the entire reason we have criminal law, is usually boiled down to three principles-
Retribution - this is the Kantian idea that wrongdoing requires retribution from society- that social balance is restored by punishment. Think of "moral desert" (deserving something for what you have done). Or, if you prefer, society needs to punish wrongdoing.
Deterrence - this is the more modern idea that criminal laws deter crime. If you know you will be punished, you won't do the crime.
Rehabilitation - the idea that criminal law should be tailored to rehabilitate criminals. This is ... less favored in America now.
Anyway, that's why.
That's all true but I think there's a more nuanced answer.
Retribution, in a roundabout way, provides the moral justification for having laws at all. If you only have deterrence, it leaves open the question of what to deter. Of course, we want to deter undesirable behavior, but undesirable by who? The majority? If the majority finds wearing plaid with stripes to be undesirable, are we justified in deterring it on pain of death? (There was an interesting Star Trek episode about a society that worked this way... one of the early Wesley Crusher episodes in ST:TNG season 1 iirc. He was going to get the death penalty for accidental trespass. Oh if only they'd carried out the sentence!)
The retribution piece gives you the answer, which essentially boils down to "the punishment should fit the crime" (or in our constitution's language, the ban on cruel punishments). The criminal law should align with a sense of justice, and that sense of justice is articulated through retribution. Without retribution as a moral guide, it becomes really easy to use the criminal code to infringe on personal freedoms.
Retribution also gets to the notion that victims are ceding their right to revenge to the State. I have always argues that this is actually psychologically good for victims, because it is easier to forgive one's wrongdoers if one is confident that the state will fairly punish them for their actions.
Retribution might just be a fancy word for "no free swings."
No free swings, clingers.
Coach Sandusky took plenty of "Free Swings" that's why he's currently "Indisposed" at
https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
So how the "Nittily" (HT Barry Hussein Osama) looking this year, "Coach"
I'm joking, not like you're up in the tower or watching game film.
Frank
Not sure I'm persuaded that retribution SHOULD be a goal. All the arguments seem to depend on personifying society like it's a thing with needs and it needs to exact punishments on people.
And then some other thoughts:
One of you says, "if you only have deterrence, it leaves open the question of what to deter". That's not true. Deterrence is no more open ended than retribution. You have to define what to enact retribution against too.
You say deterrence is open ended because the "punishment should fit the crime", but retribution is not. But retribution doesn't guarantee that punishment should fit the crime. I think cultures that think about punishment in terms of retribution are actually very prone to have extremely severe punishments. The only restraint against over-severe punishment is a belief in liberty. So I don't think deterrence on its own is sufficient. It really should be the minimum needed to deter combined with a need to make victims whole.
Another of you mentions that that retribution is a way for victims to ceded their "right" to revenge to the state. I don't think there is a right to revenge. There is a right to be made whole, but a right to revenge?
And finally, all this leads to this idea that I know has been discussed in libertarian circles -- do we even need criminal law? If we think about law in terms of protecting individuals from having their rights invaded, then criminal law is just an excessive overlay, as if "society" has some rights that it needs to impose. And the punishments we use our there to preserve our liberty.
There’s one question I don’t know anyone asked that I hope is revealed during trial:
“Mr. Pence, why did you refuse to get in the limo?”
I’d really like to hear the answer.
Why is that relevant?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence: nor is the law less stable than the fact."
Thank you, 2.
Maybe I'm stupid, but my understanding of these charges is that he believed that he lost the election, so all of his actions were a fraud.
Donald J. Trump is, in the eyes of at least half this country (and me), one of, if not the most, narcissistic, shamelessly arrogant asshats ever to walk the face of the Earth.
If he is that narcissistic and arrogant, he could never believe that he lost anything, let alone the election. Ipso facto - he's innocent.
Somin address this argument with his "valuable ring" hypothetical.
Exactly. Especially for an ex-president running for election, "I'm too stupid / deluded / deranged to know better!" is a problematic defense.
Not for a Republican, apparently.
It’s a variation of “I’m not always right, but I’m never wrong” (they teach that in Surgery School) anyone here think Parkinsonian Joe could say it without fucking it up, even with a Teleprompter?? And he’s the one (Yeah, right) who decides what to do when Roosh-a nukes the Harry S. Truman. (Could happen?? probably will happen with these fucks)
Frank
To be clear, DJT is a narcissistic, shamelessly arrogant asshat, but he's way better than Biden.
Prof. Somin's suggestion that "the option of pursuing an insanity defense is open to [Trump,] and perhaps he can attempt it at trial" is an interesting hypothesis.
Per 18 U.S.C. § 17(a), "It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under any Federal statute that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense." Under § 17(b), "The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence."
Fed.R.Crim.P. 12.2(a) requires:
A Rule 12.2(a) notice would trigger the government's right to a psychiatric or psychological examination of Trump by a licensed or certified psychiatrist or psychologist, or, if the court finds it appropriate, by more than one such examiner. Rule 12.2(c)(1)(B); 18 U.S.C. §§ 4242(a), 4247(b). The District Court may commit the person to be examined for a reasonable period, but not to exceed forty-five days, (unless extended up to thirty days on application by the director of the facility upon a showing of good cause that the additional time is necessary to observe and evaluate the defendant) to the custody of the Attorney General for placement in a suitable facility. § 4247(b).
After disclosure of the results and reports of the government's examination, the defendant must disclose to the government the results and reports of any examination on mental condition conducted by the defendant's expert about which the defendant intends to introduce expert evidence. Rule 12.2(c)(3).
On motion of either party or on the court's own motion, the jury would be instructed to find the defendant:
18 U.S.C. § 4242(c).
Hey, what were you going in about with those jury instructions about lies?
"Special counsel Jack Smith's team made a startling admission in its case against former President Donald Trump, acknowledging in a new court filing that it failed to turn over all evidence to Mr. Trump's legal team as required by law and falsely claimed that it had."
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/jack-smith-admits-making-false-claim-court-trump-case
I'm guessing you'll find someway to rationalize and excuse this little whoopsie-doodle
Here is the July 31 filing your linked article refers to. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653.92.0_1.pdf
I don't have the transcript of the July 18 hearing, so I don't know the context of the statement that was later corrected. But as a general proposition, correcting an earlier false statement (which may have been made unwittingly or inadvertently) is not conclusive as to whether someone lied. A lie requires intent to deceive.
I’m guessing you’ll find someway to rationalize and excuse this little whoopsie-doodle
Great thing for a presidential campaign. "I am too crazy to convict, but I can still be president."
Franz Kafka is jealous of the 21st century.
Who you gonna listen to, this Kafka friend of yours, or me?
And whats going on with Jack Smiths Teeth, first I thought he was just riffing on Clint Eastwood in "Dirty Hairy" but that's a case of "Meth Mouth" if I've seen one, Hunter's are similar (I'm not a Dentist, so sue me) still not convinced they're not the same person (Prove I'm an asshole, link to a photo of the 2 at a Whorehouse, or maybe just the Dental records (Hunter was in the Navy for a few weeks, they take X-rays)
Frank
Here is Alan M. Dershowitz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNBZjrA9fM&t=1s
Another angel fallen from grace.
Who would've guessed that the comments under this post would be filled with tiresome MAGA bullshit.
Who would've guessed that a lefty shit would dismiss any opposition as "MAGA bullshit"?
Excellent example!
Alvin Bragg's prosecution of Trump for lying to his own checkbook is legally dubious. It's unclear what crime, if any, was committed.
The classified documents case is what we call in the trade a slam dunk. Trump's demonstrated consciousness of guilt (ordering the the deletion of the surveillance video of his co-conspirators moving boxes containing classified documents to hide them from the FBI) will be difficult to overcome.
In the election cases, the question will be if Trump's insistence that he won the election except for the fraud constitutes protected political speech, a delusional belief, or an attempt at fraud.
Perhaps a silly question, but I don't practice criminal law. If the charges against Trump include the element of making knowingly false statements about the election integrity, wouldn't the prosecutor have to prove the statements were in fact false in addition to Trump not believing them? That is, that the elections (all over the place) were all done properly? How do you do that. The fact that a series of lawsuits were not successful hardly establishes a fact.
The author is full of it. I'm no Trump fan, but making the claim that an election was rigged is NOT a crime.