The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Democrats Have Become Much More Supportive than Republicans of the Government Restricting False Information Online"
So reports a new Pew Research poll; the view that "The U.S. government should take steps to restrict FALSE information online, even if it limits people from freely publishing or accessing information" polled at 37%-60% (i.e., mostly against) with Republicans, and 40%-57% with Democrats in 2018 (no statistically significant difference there), but now Republicans are 39%-59% against and Democrats are 70%-28% for. Unsurprising, it seems to me: People's views on the question likely depends on how much you trust the U.S. government's judgment of what is "false information," and Democrats today trust it more than do Republicans.
To be sure, the poll question is potentially ambiguous: For instance, if one views "U.S. government" as including state and federal courts, and focuses on libel law as a kind of restriction on false information, one might say yes to the question just because one supports some sort of libel liability. But in practice, I expect that most respondents did focus on broader attempts by the Administration or by Congress to restrict supposedly false information.
Note that the debate in the U.S. about federal government power to restrict false information—including false information that is seen as harmful because it wrongly undermines confidence in the government—is almost as old as the U.S. itself, which dates back to the debates about the Sedition Act of 1798 and similar speech restrictions. The Sedition Act, for instance, banned
false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress …, or the President …, with intent to defame [them] … or to bring them … into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them … the hatred of the good people of the United States.
The Act's backers stressed that the law (unlike the English common law of seditious libel) was limited to "false" and "malicious" statements; and they noted the importance of restricting those statements. Here is Justice Chase's instruction to the jury in U.S. v. Cooper, about the Sedition Act specifically:
If a man attempts to destroy the confidence of the people in their officers, their supreme magistrate, and their legislature, he effectually saps the foundation of the government.
And here is one from Justice Iredell in Case of Fries, dealing with a treason prosecution arising out of the Fries Rebellion in Pennsylvania in 1799; Iredell was defending the Sedition Act of 1798, though Fries wasn't tried under that Act:
Ask the great body of the people who were deluded into an insurrection in the western parts of Pennsylvania, what gave rise to it? They will not hesitate to say, that the government had been vilely misrepresented, and made to appear to them in a character directly the reverse of what they deserved.
In consequence of such misrepresentations, a civil war had nearly desolated our country [I believe this refers to the Whiskey Rebellion -EV], and a certain expense of near two millions of dollars was actually incurred, which might be deemed the price of libels, and among other causes made necessary a judicious and moderate land tax, which no man denies to be constitutional, but is now made the pretext of another insurrection.
The liberty of the press is, indeed, valuable—long may it preserve its lustre! It has converted barbarous nations into civilized ones—taught science to rear its head—enlarged the capacity-increased the comforts of private life—and, leading the banners of freedom, has extended her sway where her very name was unknown. But, as every human blessing is attended with imperfection, as what produces, by a right use, the greatest good, is productive of the greatest evil in its abuse, so this, one of the greatest blessings ever bestowed by Providence on His creatures, is capable of producing the greatest good or the greatest mischief….
Men who are at a distance from the source of information must rely almost altogether on the accounts they receive from others. If their accounts are founded in truth, their heads or hearts must be to blame, if they think or act wrongly. But, if their accounts are false, the best head and the best heart cannot be proof against their influence; nor is it possible to calculate the combined effect of innumerable artifices, either by direct falsehood, or invidious insinuations, told day by day, upon minds both able and virtuous.
Such being unquestionably the case, can it be tolerated in any civilized society that any should be permitted with impunity to tell falsehoods to the people, with an express intention to deceive them, and lead them into discontent, if not into insurrection, which is so apt to follow? It is believed no government in the world ever was without such a power….
Combinations to defeat a particular law are admitted to be punishable. Falsehoods, in order to produce such combinations, I should presume, would come within the same principle, as being the first step to the mischief intended to be prevented; and if such falsehoods, with regard to one particular law, are dangerous, and therefore ought not to be permitted without punishment—why should such which are intended to destroy confidence in government altogether, and thus induce disobedience to every act of it?
It is said, libels may be rightly punishable in monarchies, but there is not the same necessity in a republic. The necessity, in the latter case, I conceive greater, because in a republic more is dependent on the good opinion of the people for its support, as they are, directly or indirectly, the origin of all authority, which of course must receive its bias from them. Take away from a republic the confidence of the people, and the whole fabric crumbles into dust….
I think that our legal system has rightly retreated from punishing such seditious libels, partly because criminalizing even outright lies ("false" and "malicious" statements) about the government
- unduly risks suppressing or at least deterring even legitimate opinion,
- unduly risks suppressing allegations that would ultimately prove accurate, and
- unduly risks selective enforcement by officials of that government.
For an example of these problems, see U.S. v. Cooper itself; and the Supreme Court recognized this in 1964, concluding that:
Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history. Fines levied in its prosecution were repaid by Act of Congress on the ground that it was unconstitutional…. The invalidity of the Act has also been assumed by Justices of this Court. These views reflect a broad consensus that the Act, because of the restraint it imposed upon criticism of government and public officials, was inconsistent with the First Amendment….
[Though false, malicious allegations against specific public officials may be punished,] "no court of last resort in this country has ever held, or even suggested, that prosecutions for libel on government have any place in the American system of jurisprudence."
But in any event, the debate, as with many important historical debates, is coming back to the fore. Thanks to Josh Rosenbluth for the pointer.
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There is a difference between on the one hand stifling criticism of the government, and on the other hand trying to prevent people from falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
Not to the First Amendment there isn’t. No difference at all.
SCOTUS disagrees.
Sure they do. Please remind us of the decision in which the SC decreed that lies are not protected by the 1A. Fraud is an exception but other false statements are not.
I liked the Democrats better when they were actually fighting for free speech instead of trying to have it cut off.
In United States v. Alvarez, the controlling opinion established a balancing test between the government's objectives in regulating falsehoods versus the potential harm to speech interests caused by the regulations. That is, each case must be decided on its own merits and sometimes lies are not protected.
And just a reminder, it was Alito, Scalia and Thomas who argued for the least protection of falsehoods.
United States v. Alvarez ruled that criminalizing false statements was unconstitutional.
Nice try.
No. The Court struck down the Stolen Valor Act. But, the controlling opinion described how the Act could be modified:
And indeed, Congress modified the Act to cover only lies "with intent to obtain money, property, or other tangible benefit."
Indeed - fraud (which false speech with intent to obtain money, property, or other tangible benefit.) is a crime, as it was before Alvarez. But false speech, per se is fully protected.
The controlling opinion did not limit acceptable regulations to fraud, instead requiring that the lie cause harm (not limited to fraud) which outweighs the damage done to speech.
Your claim that false speech is per se protected is line with the four-justice plurality. But, that's not the controlling opinion.
You are abusing Marks here. The two-justice concurrence is not "controlling" in the way you're using that term. What it means is that the case's ultimate holding is narrower than some of the sweeping statements of Kennedy's plurality opinion; it does not mean that 2 justices get to supersede 4 justices.
Note that anything in the concurrence about what speech might remain unprotected is dicta. Supreme Court dicta is still pretty important — though this is just two-justice dicta — but it is dicta.
Moreover, you're overreading Breyer's concurrence anyway. His opinion is saying, "Well, maybe a more narrowly tailored law could be constitutional, but this one isn't." He is not saying that all you need to do is identify some harms and then the prohibition would be constitutional. (He expressly rejects that!) And note that Stevens — which was the opinion of 8 justices, not 2 — rejected the notion that there's some general balancing test for speech protection.
I think Marks, as applied to Alvarez, stands for the notion that lower courts must use intermediate scrutiny in evaluating regulations of lies.
Your reliance on Stevens mimics the reasoning of Alvarez's four-justice plurality. Do you think lower courts should just ignore Breyer's concurrence and reject intermediate scrutiny in evaluating regulations of lies?
I don't think even the plurality in Alvarez says false speech is per se protected. I think the plurality held false speech is not unprotected (double negative intended). But a majority of the Court requires either intermediate or strict scrutiny to determine whether regulation is acceptable. As in Alvarez, that comes down to whether the restriction is adequately tailored (for the strict scrutiny plurality). But suppressing core political speech on the basis of its content (i.e. falsity) raises a much less compelling governmental interest than restricting false speech that may lead to imminent death or injury.
That is not to say that the statement "Covid vaccines don't work" is protected or unprotected speech. I suspect the Court would strike down a regulation that forbade such a statement in public discourse, just as it would strike one down that forbade the statement, "Covid vaccines are great."
(Medical communications between doctor and patient are a bit different, however. There, the regulated nature of practicing medicine allows further governmental intrusion.)
"...the regulated nature of practicing medicine allows further governmental intrusion."
You need a better explanation. A government choice to regulate something -- e.g., hairdressing -- doesn't automatically give it more right to regulate speech between the parties involved.
Well first prove its a lie beyond a reasonable doubt.
I doubt the government could do that with any of these common "misinformations":
The covid vaccine doesn't prevent covid.
The covid vaccine doesn't prevent the transmission of covid.
The covid vaccines side effects are more dangerous for populations under 35 than the virus itself.
Hunter Biden's laptop is 100% genuine.
Joe Biden is hopelessly senile.
Trump won the 2020 election (not that I believe it, but I doubt it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt).
Covid came from a Chinese laboratory.
There should be a very high bar before the government suppresses any information, and at the least they should prove it false beyond any reasonable doubt.
"SCOTUS disagrees."
No they don't.
Really, they do. "Fire!" in a crowded theater raises government interests in safety and other issues, and can properly be regulated in several ways depending on the circumstances under which it is said. That's clear in Alvarez, where what I just said garnered a majority of the Court. Every justice on the panel opined that the First Amendment permits regulating false speech under at least certain circumstances, btw.
No, they don't.
Justice Holmes wrote "the most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre and causing a panic."
https://reason.com/2022/10/27/yes-you-can-yell-fire-in-a-crowded-theater/
First, yes Holmes' example was about false statements. As was the original comment I responded to. We're all on the same page about what Holmes said and the falsity condition.
Second, Holmes' statement is not the only statement SCOTUS has made on the subject of exceptions to absolute free speech.
Third, the contention was that SCOTUS holds there is no difference between falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater and stifling criticism of the government, i.e. that neither may be restricted. That is incorrect. It was incorrect when Holmes wrote his famous dicta; it was incorrect when Schenck was abandoned; it was incorrect in Alvarez; it is incorrect now. As a matter of law.
Fourth, the Reason.com article you linked is garbage. I'll back that up. Read the internally linked article by Greg Lukianoff (and Nadine Strossen of ACLU as co-author although Reason omitted that part) where it emphasizes that "government may restrict speech only when, under the circumstances, it directly threatens certain serious imminent harm, which can’t be averted through other measures." The fire-in-a-crowded-theater hypothetical still meets that definition because the foreseeable harm is serious, imminent, and likely when shouted (falsely) in a trapped crowd. Everyone agrees you can shout "fire" truthfully even in crowded theaters. But, moreover, the article is garbage because Ms. Emma Camp, assistant editor at Reason, entirely leaves out the body of first amendment law since Brandenburg. She reasons that just because the theater hypothetical was dicta in Schenck, and then Brandenburg articulated a different test, therefore the hypothetical necessarily fails under the resulting doctrine. That's bad legal analysis and would merit a C on a Con Law exam.
Almost everyone is against shouting false statement including yelling fire when there is none.
As noted in a prior thread, most leftist are in favor of some forms of censorship with ideas they dont like - with the claim that they are censoring misinformation.
As noted with covid, much of what was labeled misinformation turned out to be correct. While at the same time, much of the covid mitigation protocols promoted by leftist and based on "science " turned out to be false.
Does the left really want to censor info on Biden's corruption , or Trumps corruption
I don’t know of any “misinformation” that turned out to be correct.
The Covid measures were, at each step, based on concerns of public safety based on what (often little) was known. It was not motivated by totalitarian, corrupt or political impulses (when Biden was trying to overcome resistance to vaccinations, he was in the main trying to save Republican lives). The opposition, by contrast, was motivated by an anti-expertise bias or an anti-liberal bias (in these days of pervasive and proud conservative ignorance, it’s getting to be the same thing), and it’s not disputed caused thousands of deaths.
captcrisis 5 mins ago (edited)
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I don’t know of any “misinformation” that turned out to be correct."
Cap - you have to be living in a left wing bubble to be unaware of misinformation that turned out to be correct.
The CDC had listed at 12 peer reviewed studies on the effectiveness of masking that were borderline academic fraud
The CDC still promotes children getting vaxed - when there is no medical evidence supporting the efficiency of vaxing children from covid (with the exception of children already suffering from life threatening illness)
The CDC regularly promoted vax efficiency studies that had artifical short study periods to hide the steep decline in effectiveness.
Fauci and gang promoted remdisver as a viable drug to treat covid when the raw data supporting the trial only had a statistically insignificant benefit based on subjective criteria.
Fauci and gang was very active in suppressing the lab leak theory.
Fauci / CDC and the teachers union were very active in claiming little if any negative impact from zoom learning.
the vast majority of mis information during covid came from government officials
Unfortunately you don’t provide any links.
Cap - try the CDC links to the multitude of studies
You have to be living in a serious woke bubble to be unaware of the multitude of crap studies and the cdc/fauci and gang promoting the extensive level of misinformation and dubious studies.
That Study of Face Masks Does Not Show What the CDC Claims
Plenty of links there.
Brett
As noted 1) It was pretty much common knowledge by early summer of 2020 that masks were ineffective - at least common knowledge among those with basic analytical skills and basic science knowledge.
2) It was also quite evident that those pushing the mitigation protocols were working in an echo chamber devoid of a reasonable understanding of the mechanics of masking.
Not what the study says.
Why do doctors and nurses wear face masks during surgery? Is it because they don't work?
It certainly isn't to protect the patient from viruses. The staff communicate during surgeries and masks protect the patient from bacteria in spittle. For anything other than that, they would be required to wear fitted respirators, which they notably do not do.
But please, don't let me interrupt your ignorance.
Viruses are transmitted in droplets. COVID in particular.
Covid is also transmitted in aerosol form, and studies predating Covid showed that masks don't significantly affect transmission of influenza-like illnesses. See the famous post-Covid Cochrane review for cites.
Surgeons and hospital nurses wear masks to protect high-risk patients in acute care scenarios, not to protect the general public.
You mean this Cochrane study?
"The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions."
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full?utm_source=mp-fotoscapes
Ah, another one that "mistakes" qualified statements for actually saying the exact opposite.
or
and in conclusion
For those that cannot understand such complicated language: "A bunch people did a bunch tests and studies, and none of them showed that cloth or simple paper masks helped. We ignored the worst studies, but even so, some of the studies were better than others - so to be completely certain that our conclusion is correct, we'd really like it if someone else did a big expensive study."
Apples and oranges.
bacteria - not viruses
Cap you are resorting to left wing talking points demonstrating a shallow understanding of the subject matter.
Same reason Judges wear robes, tradition.
That is a very lame try at side-stepping. You know how to use the internet.
If he doesn't supply links he needs to be censored?
That's kind of weird because the CDC endorsed a vaccine using an emergency use authorization without testing the efficacy and side effects on diverse populations too.
The CDC doesn't have to prove anything, and its critics have to prove them wrong.
Well OK, Thalidomide wasn't that big a thing, and certainly the whole breast implant thing was an overreaction.
Is that the new standard?
lol of course you don't. I bet you also believe there was no "official approved information" that turned out to be incorrect.
Yeah, and Vincent Lane wanted warrantless searches of the Robert Taylor Homes just because he was tired of school shootings, right?
Please stop conflating "ideas they don't like" with "misinformation."
There is such a thing as a lie. Deceptions are real. Bad science is a thing. Just because you/I don't like the result of a study or fact or investigation doesn't mean it's "misinformation." And facts we do like aren't all true.
If I told some kids they can pet any dog they see because dogs don't bite, have I endangered the kids? Does it matter that most dogs won't bite most kids? But I have statistics. Does context matter? Of course it does. What if the kids pet every dog they see for a year and none of them get bit? Does it mean my advice "turned out to be correct?"
Having participated in discussions online since the mid-1990's, I have read misinformation.
It never occurred to me that the government should even hint that web site proprietors take down misinformation- not in 1995, and not today.
To be clear, I wasn't saying it should or shouldn't in this comment. My plea is to disentangle "unwelcome" from "false." I get the concern that allowing government to censor anything will lead to censoring the wrong things, but that's a different concern than "should we or shouldn't we permit government to squash actually false statements" as an analytical matter.
If "allowing government to censor anything will lead to censoring the wrong things" them that definitely says something about “should we or shouldn’t we permit government to squash actually false statements”, particularly given how much unexamined work "actually" doing in the latter question.
Just Biden's corruption.
It's important for National Security to censor information about elites.
Do you mean actually falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Or do you mean that metaphorically, to refer to a larger range of alleged falsehoods? If the latter, might it be helpful to elaborate what you would literally have this cover?
I think reckless disregard for truth would qualify and it would apply to a specific assertion that you publicly announce with the intent that people rely on it. If you should know that there is no fire, then you’re liable (or guilty) if you actually shout “Fire!” This is an established concept in criminal and civil law. Some people have advanced powers of self-delusion, but the law does not protect them.
Thanks for responding to my comment! (I’m flattered!)
That is not, thankfully, the law with regard to speech.
Let's start with the horrible metaphor: the fire-in-a-theater argument was an argument that people could be thrown in jail for arguing against the military draft. Unless you agree with that, do not use the metaphor. (If you do agree with that, please let me know so I can not take you seriously.)
Moreover, even that extreme case did not say that merely falsely yelling fire was sufficient; the harm had to happen: falsely yelling fire and causing a panic.
Even more importantly, the case that used it has been overruled. "It's dangerous to say that" is not valid grounds for liability for saying it. (It's not remotely sufficient.)
So… no.
The case was overruled, but the point remains. There are valid public interests that can and are served by government regulation of false statements. Fraud (actual harm) attempted fraud (also permitted to be regulated) incitement (where the standard is probabilistic)... you get my drift. Commercial speech is its own sub-category with lower protections, 1A notwithstanding.
"Intent to gain a benefit" is all it took to rehabilitate the Stolen Valor Act after Alvarez.
In such cases, the proper remedy is to prosecute the speaker, or to provide a judicial forum where the victims can sue the speaker, not to tell the web site owner to take down the content.
That's mine run fraud; it doesn't rehabilitate the SVA. They can put it in its own statute if they want, but it's still just saying that the 1A doesn't protect fraud, which was established long before this.
You are correct, but given the history of the case, just pick a different metaphor.
Wrong thread, disregard.
The justification for censoring falsely crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater, (And kudos to you for including the "falsely"; So many omit it.) is that it has a high potential to cause imminent and mortal danger. People had died in the crush of folks fleeing a theater thinking it was on fire, at the time this was a serious risk that gave no time for calm reflection.
This sort of reasoning is utterly inapplicable to any case where there is time to discuss the matter and debate the truth of something.
Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote: “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.”
I read that as the speech must (a) be false and (b) cause a bad outcome in order to be actionable.
So what are you supposed to do? just leave quietly and let everyone burn to death?? And isn't having a smoke detector in a Theater the same thing??
This language by Holmes in Schenck is generally considered to be non-precedential dictum. Even if it were binding, this part of Schenck was overturned by Brandenburg. The relevant test from Branderburg is whether "such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."
You can generally go into a theater, crowded or otherwise, and shout "fire." A government body cannot prosecute you for this unless circumstances dictate that there is a likely to be an imminent threat from doing so. For instance, there would be no problem with giving a speech entitled "Schenck, Brandenburg, and theater fires" in a crowded theater where you start off by shouting "fire, fire, fire." This is true even if a bad outcome resulted, since it seems unlikely that a reasonable person would freak out in such circumstances.
Intent to cause panic is sufficient under current law.
It's also stupid, because falsely shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater is not speech, but an act. It's no different than playing a recording of a gunshot to get people to panic, or intentionally activating a false fire alarm. The fact that you caused the panic with your vocal cords as opposed to your hand doesn't change the underlying fact.
Can't believe that even our resident neo-Nazi gets this right. The notion of the fire-in-a-theater is that yelling it causes a stampede which gets people injured before they have a chance to think about it.
(And, of course, Holmes applied it to a situation absolutely nothing like that, as an apologist for censorship.)
Saddam has chlorine tipped scuds aimed at Dallas…he’s messin’ with Texas!
how about yelling "Theater!!" in a crowded fire?
No there's not. It is perfectly legal to falsely shout fire in a crowded theater. However, if your actions directly and imminently result in damages to your surroundings or harm to people, you are legally responsible.
That's actually not true. For example, in New York, and I suspect most states have similar laws:
"A person is guilty of falsely reporting an incident in the third degree when, knowing the information reported, conveyed or circulated to be false or baseless, he or she:
1. Initiates or circulates a false report or warning of an alleged occurrence or impending occurrence of a crime, catastrophe or emergency under circumstances in which it is not unlikely that public alarm or inconvenience will result; or"
in which it is not unlikely that public alarm or inconvenience will result
Those "not-un" constructions are the sure sign of a sloppy or dishonest thinker.
Much harder for the state to prove that an occurrence is likely than to prove that it is not unlikely. This language is intended to enable spurious prosecutions and to confound juries.
So reports a new Pew Research poll; the view that "The U.S. government should take steps to restrict FALSE information online, even if it limits people from freely publishing or accessing information" polled at 37%-60% (i.e., mostly against) with Republicans, and 40%-57% with Democrats in 2018 (no statistically significant difference there), but now Republicans are 39%-59% against and Democrats are 70%-28% for. Unsurprising, it seems to me: People's views on the question likely depends on how much you trust the U.S. government's judgment of what is "false information," and Democrats today trust it more than do Republicans.
And since the Internet is not a crowded theater, false information online is exactly like "stifling criticism of the government".
Why even bring iup the whole "fire in a crowcded theater" analogy?
This post is misinformation, and I demand that it be taken down forthwith. You will be hearing from the FBI shortly.
Any rumors to the effect that liberals are planning to censor speech in any way, shape or form are false, and anyone spreading such rumors will be punished to the full extent of the law.
Considering the law on this topic, Mr. Quixote, I welcome your effort to apply its "full extent" to this.
Thank God they’ve got the discipline to limit themselves to truly false information. LMFAO.
To me, a salient question here is whether today's much more available means of publishing should affect the decision about whether or not to regulate falsity. I'm not sure of the answer.
The framers were certainly worried about suppression of political speech and possibly would not have cared.
But in today's society, I think we need to at least engage the problem that the internet has drastically reduced the historic tempering effect publishers had on popular messaging. They were targets for libel and desired advertisers, so their profit motive to circulate broadly had some moderating effect on urges to publish useful but crackpot falsities. Accordingly, readers could usually rely on facts published by a major outlet to be within a certain tolerance of true. Now... people get their news from such a vast assortment of sources, all of which have access to high production values. Plus there is a pressure to establish a "brand" for one's "voice" so truth is less important than loud.
Happy to clear that up for you: The answer is "no".
Eugene is the Brett Kavanaugh of the VR stable. Willing to point out leftist foolishness, but reluctant to condemn it. If it is to be expected that partisan belief in government censorship rises and falls depending on which party is in power, why has the republican response remained steady from a republican administration to a democratic one?
Because one side tends to benefit more from misinformation?
As it stands right now, the left is freer to misinform than the right, so I assume that’s the side you’re referring to.
Sure.
Um, how is either side "more free" to misinform?
The side in control of the media faces less powerful blowback, obviously.
If some person or other, or even a lot of them, want to believe stupid stuff, they will every time. The speed of transit has changed, and the sources have changed, but otherwise it works about the same. That’s the same reason advertising usually works pretty well, and the reason that the dietary supplement industry makes bank.
Questioning these beliefs by providing contrary evidence almost never works. Even empirical brute reality via first hand experience won’t shake them.
All of this is the way it is going to be, and has always been, regardless of what governments do. Restricting dangerous false information won’t stop it, because humans seem to love it.
hey prof, Norwegian metallers Vulture Industries dropped a song called "Saturn Devouring his Young" that I'm pretty sure is an anti-Ukrainian war song- check it out:
"Make me remembered
In glory, bright for everyone
Speak of me with awe
The waning heart did implore
As it talked of peace to the sounds of peacock feet
Marching readily on to a deafening roar
Guilty, bloodied hands are digging deep in broken lands
For a just cause, to adobe draconian laws
Words that all bring death, carried on gales of stolen breath
From a chokehold to make the wary man bold
Little men with inflatable guns
Puffing hard to inflate their disposable sons
Little men with inflatable guns
Risk it all to reclaim their own place in the sun
Like Saturn devouring his young
To have his glory go on
While weeping crocodile tears for his expendable sons
Saturn devouring his young
His reign carried on
Floating on the blood of this expandable sons
Saturn devouring his young
Little men with inflatable guns
Puffing hard to inflate their disposable sons
Little men with inflatable guns
Puffing hard to inflate their disposable sons
Little men with inflatable guns
Risk it all to reclaim their own place in the sun"
"Inspired by what I consider one of the most disturbing paintings ever made, the track deals with power-hungry old men and their ruthless disregard of life and consequence in their quest for a glorified place in history."
The above description by Bjørnar Erevik Nilsen about "Saturn Devouring His Young" reminds me of Vladimir Putin and his quest for a place in history beside Tsar Peter and Empress Catherine as one of the Greats of Russian History.
To me, Putin = Saturn, Ukraine = the young.
Wow, that IS a disturbing painting. (but for some reason "What our Lord Saw From the Cross" is even more disturbing, maybe because it's Hey-Zeus, or trying to imagine being in that position) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Our_Lord_Saw_from_the_Cross
OTOH "Saturn" looks sort of like the Snow Monster from "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer"
Frank
Eugene's focus on sedition puzzles me because I doubt it is criticism of the government that is driving the partisan divide. More likely, it is posts on the 2020 election and COVID remedies (e.g., false information about the vaccine), both of which Democrats are more likely to frown on the falsehoods. So I agree with Eugene, there is nothing likely inherent in the partisan divide. We could see the opposite if other falsehoods were dominant.
We could see the opposite if other people were in a position to censor. The key difference isn’t who is saying things the other side would rather were not said, whether they’re true or false. Both sides are, on both counts.
It’s who at the moment has the power to censor, if censorship is permitted. The left's interest in defending censorship, just as the right's interest in opposing it, appeared about the time people began to realize the parties had swapped positions in that regard, and that, if censorship was permitted, it would now be Democrats deciding who got censored.
The poll shows the same newly-minted partisan divide on technology companies censoring falsehoods. And yet, technology company owners are the same now as they were then. So, it's got to be what is being said that changed, not who decides what is censored.
Technology company owners are, as you say, the same people then and now, leftwingers before and after. But it took a while before they realized they were in a position to censor public discourse, and really hit their stride at doing that. I remember watching the realization in real time, as a private FB group I was a member of, which had been going on for years unmolested, suddenly started getting demands from FB moderators to take down certain posts or else. Not because anybody was complaining, because FB had hired a bunch of busybodies and given them access to private groups to go looking for WrongThink.
We eventually got chased off FB, after having the group locked several times over somebody having said something a FB moderator didn't like.
You continue to be utterly out to lunch with your 'my business sense is the one truth' certainty that tech company owners are not profit-seekers looking at the market and advertisers but actually doing leftism no breaks.
Leaving aside your nonsense about tech companies, you didn't explain why Democrats came around to liking censorship in the past 5 years.
SarcastrO is a prime example of disinformation.
Should EV ban him?
Yes please.
The government, however, should stay out of it.
His telepathy has uncovered a convenient timeline: ‘it took a while before they realized they were in a position to censor public discourse’
Because if there is anything about tech bros I know, they’re never always testing the power of their position. That's why it took them like 30 years to figure this out.
America Online and CompuServe were proudly censoring online discussion forums 30 years ago, and there were vigorous fights over vigilante censoring of Usenet about the same time. The Usenet backbone even had a cabal of influential insiders, the mid-1980s equivalent of colluding tech bros (although organized by a woman).
Seems your definition of censorship is overtuned since these are private businesses.
osh R 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Eugene’s focus on sedition puzzles me because I doubt it is criticism of the government that is driving the partisan divide. More likely, it is posts on the 2020 election and COVID remedies (e.g., false information about the vaccine),"
Josh - False info about vaccines
Such as more effective than natural immunity
little or no waning effectiveness
Children needed to be vaxed.
I was thinking the one about COVID being a hoax so a vaccine could be created to implant microchips in people.
It is not the government's business is a web site owner either posts this, or lets someone else post this.
Shouldn’t “false” in the title be in quotes?
I think there's more to it than that. For one thing, it it really were just a matter of which party currently runs the federal government, you'd expect these poll numbers to be reversed during the Trump administration. I very much doubt that would've been the case. Conservatives oppose government suppression of speech (regardless of who is in the Oval Office); "liberals" (ha!) support it.
Does anyone actually believe that there is anybody in the federal government that is capable or inclined to make non-partisan decisions on what is or isn’t misinformation? Look at the misinformation-spewing fool that Biden chose to run his misinformation effort before it was shouted down.
It’s not possible for this to be fair.
They didn't reverse during the Trump administration for several reasons.
1) You can't swap positions instantly. (Though I'll grant that the ACLU certainly tried to after Citizens United.)
2) Trump only had a very shallow level of control over the Executive branch, which continued to work on behalf of the Democrats everywhere he didn't micromanage it.
3) Most modern censorship is implemented by private sector internet platforms and media outlets, which remain in the hands of Democrats even when Republicans control the White House.
Yes. And when any conservative advocates regulating Facebook, Google or Twitter pre-Musk as a common carrier, the left screams "Private enterprise! Let them do what they want!" But of course, that line of logic falls apart as soon as a private baker doesn't want to bake a cake for people like the Rev. Kirkland and his degenerate butt buddies.
These bigots are your fans and target audience, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason you are doomed -- with the other clingers -- to continuing failure at the modern American marketplace of ideas and in the culture war.
"you’d expect these poll numbers to be reversed during the Trump administration"
There’s data for the same poll in 2018 (during the Trump Administration). Majority of Republicans supported free speech in the 2018 poll.
Free speech threatened to interfere with Democrats' totalitarianism. They decided they didn’t want it any more.
Legal and policy issues aside, everyone seems to be missing the obvious: The reason more Republicans oppose suppressing misinformation is that a significant chunk of the misinformation out there is right wing conspiracy theories that benefits Republicans. Starting with Obama being born in Kenya and going through to Trump having the election stolen from him, from Hillary Clinton's Pizzagate (when she wasn't otherwise occupied having Vince Foster murdered) to Joe Biden being a pedophile, the lion's share of the false information out there is Republican.
Now, of course counterexamples can be found, but that, it strikes me, is the general rule.
And of course, that does not resolve the legal, constitutional and policy issues. Maybe all that crap is and should be protected by the First Amendment. But I don't think the First Amendment precludes us from acknowledging who is responsible for most of the problem.
You say that and I see your point, but name me a Democrat that you can believe much of what they say.
Not commenting on the Hunter laptop story other than it’s beginning, but you may recall that someone on the left organized a bunch of people from the security state to assure us all that it was Russian misinformation knowing themselves that it wasn’t. Intentional misinformation. A few posts back EV posted a story about people in the left misleading everyone about the Covid origin. Intentional disinformation. Are we stamping out that stuff out too or just the stuff Biden doesn’t like?
The current administration, just like every administration before it, is a never-ending fountain of misinformation. And it’s not that they’re remarkable. Politicians lie. It’s what they do. It’s so widely known it’s a common joke. The majority of what any politician says is misinformation. Are we going to shut all that down, or just the stuff that Republicans say?
On this issue I'm consistent: If the government is going to get involved in stamping out misinformation, it should stamp out all misinformation from either side. That, or the government should stay out of it. One or the other.
And I agree with you that the practicalities are that it would be impossible to be done in a fair and even-handed manner, so ultimately I come down on the side that the government should stay out of it. Some things are objectively false; Obama was in fact born in Hawaii and Hillary Clinton did not have Vince Foster murdered. I would make it easier for the victims of such objective falsehoods to sue for defamation if they choose to do so. But a government Ministry of Truth? Nah. That's a really bad idea. And I'm a Democrat.
"...or the government should stay out of it." Period.
But nobody got sick or died by the assertion that Obama was born in Kenya or that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster (except for the years of mental anguish it caused to Foster's family).
...and people got sick and died who followed all the advice the government was putting out.
What's your point?
Mr. Bumble : “…and people got sick and died who followed … (the rest is worthless)”
It’s ironic. The same day as this topic and Bumble’s bullshit above, I read an account of a study attempting to quantify how many Republicans needlessly died because their party went anti-vaxx.
Of course I predicted there will inevitably be a solid number on this: The Right decided covid vaccines make a perfect Culture War play toy; their dupe base subsequently had much lower vaccination rates; vaccinations were very successful at prevent serious illness and death. Without question, people died a useless pointless death to reap sleazy polling points. Quote:
“The study examined the deaths of 538,139 people 25 years and older in Florida and Ohio, between January 2018 and December 2021, with researchers linking them to party registration records. Researchers found the excess death rate for Republicans and Democrats was about the same at the start of the pandemic in March 2020. Both parties experienced a sharp but similar increase in excess deaths the following winter. But after April 2021, the gap in excess death rates emerged, with the rate for Republicans 7.7 percentage points higher than the rate for Democrats. For Republicans, that translated into a 43 percent increase in excess deaths. Researchers said the gap in excess death rates was larger in counties with lower vaccination rates, and noted that the gap was primarily driven by voters in Ohio. The results suggest that differences in vaccination attitudes and the uptake among Republican and Democratic voters “may have been factors in the severity and trajectory of the pandemic” in the United States.”
This is only the earliest effort to get a solid number on how many scores of thousands died for no reason other than their “leaders” loathsome politics. Before the pandemic, anti-vaxx was a small fringe evenly divided between Left and Right. After the Right decided there was cheap political gain in anti-vaxx agitprop, a ideological divide opened. And people pointlessly died.
Maybe when we can estimate a solid number for the whole country that will add some context to the O.P. above….
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2023/07/24/covid-vaccines-republicans-deaths/
Bullshit study published by a bullshit outlet and posted by a bullshitter.
1. The Right decided to go anti-vaxx for cheap political gain.
2. Right-wingers had a much lower vaccination rate as a result.
3. The unvaccinated died at a higher rate that the vaccinated.
What about this can’t you grasp? Every fact above is irrefutable. The only thing left is a final statistical analysis of useless, pointless death.
It will be a very, very large number.
That's not what your paper says. From your excerpts, the paper puts two facts together and lets you draw that conclusion.
Secondly, quick aside:
If someone got vaccinated and died with 2 weeks, how were they counted? What about COVID deaths before they made the two week rule?
How does your paper address the different definitions of "fully vaccinated" as they changed over time? Since they seem to be suggesting these rates changed against Republicans over time, does that mean these people never got a single shot? Or one? Or one + just one booster? Or 3 boosters but not vaxx-maxxed?
How does your paper smooth out all the changes to these definitions they rely upon over their timeframe under study?
Any idea? Or do you just like the results so you don't really care and will defend it no matter what?
BravoCharlieDelta : “Right-wingers had a much lower vaccination rate as a result”
What do you contest? That the political Right had a lower vaccination rate than normal people? Or that their lower rate was influenced by the pervasive anti-vaxx rhetoric of Right-wing leaders?
Both facts are true, so it would help if you define which one you’re weaseling away from. As for the study, I made it plain this is only the first step towards a rigorous mathematical accounting. But I’m on the record from way, way, back saying such an accounting is inevitable.
The Right sold its followers tawdry sleazy lies and people needlessly died as a result. In large numbers. I think it would be helpful to see that studied and laid-out in the strictest methodical terms.
No doubt you don’t want to see that quantified…..
Why are you responding to a comment you clearly didn't read?
I read a lot of blown smoke. The problem? Blowing smoke rarely impresses anyone not predisposed to be impressed....
What was blown smoke about my comment?
Pointing out the transient nature of the definitions of key terms the paper relies upon is just blowing smoke?
Or, are you going to claim vaccines always had the definition they do now, that they always counted people as unvaccinated for two weeks w.r.t COVID and vaccine injuries, and that they always had the exact same definition of "fully vaccinated"? And that those were stable definitions and always have been?
You know like how you claim with tranny kids, and AIDS and other things?
Older wealthy Republicans got vaccinated. The wealthiest county in America adjusted for COL is a suburb of Nashville and the county has the highest vaccination rate in TN and the lowest Covid death rate and it is a strong Republican county. You see that in South Carolina with Hilton Head and Mt Pleasant and wherever wealthy Republicans live in red states.
Bullshit study, indeed, and an excellent example of grb pushing misinformation (to be polite).
This 'study' claims to be better because it looks at individuals, but:
The 'study' did not look at cause of death.
The 'study' did not look at vaccination status.
The 'study' only had voter registration data for half the people they counted.
So how do they calculate with all they missing data for individuals? Well, they guess - sorry, "estimate" from county or state level percentages.
They ignore income, which actually is a better predictor of their results.
They ignore treatment denial and other lockdown policy effects.
It's garbage. Believing something whose own methodology admits to not supporting the author's claims shows a high level of ignorance.
Or it would, if I thought for a moment that grb had actually read the study, instead of reading the headline of an oped from his preferred echo chamber.
Hm. I wonder how many left-wingers are removing themselves and their children from the gene pool via 'gender affirming surgery', though?
I know man, and frankly I love to see it. Fuck those deranged lunatics.
Guys! Get a room, willya?
There you can do your weird transsexual fetish together in dignified privacy without – you know – making such a bizarre spectacle in front of everyone else….
Thank goodness Brett Bellmore decided to be an antisocial, bigoted, autistic, delusional conservative, rather than an antisocial, bigoted, autistic, delusional member of the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
If he were a liberal-libertarian mainstreamer, I might need to consider becoming a clinger.
"the earliest effort to get a solid number"
you quote a wonderful example of the misuse of statistics in the service of political diatribe.
I could easily write a detailed "study"on how the german and italian languages cause gross differences in COVID-19 mortality in Europe. I can cite day by day trends with Italian (the language of Italian politicians) always causing excess mortality when just north of the border the german language was saving lives..
You will reply that my "study" is a misuse of statistics, But before you do, look in the mirror.
Incidentally I have published two studies of COVID epidemiology in respected, peer reviewed medical journals. I have a good idea how political motivations can warp the "findings" of statistical studies.
Continued to grb:
The data from 100 countries with more than 60% of the world's population support the conclusion that vaccination did suppress both the morbidity and mortality of COVID-19 infections through the Delta variant to a statistically significant degree. However, the degree of suppression was variable country to country and region to region without correlation to political system.
In addition, examination of the correlation of the level of mortality with the stringency of public health measures show no correlation over G-20 countries.
Your hope of getting a "solid number" is futile for petty political arguments.
Don Nico : “vaccination did suppress both the morbidity and mortality of COVID-19 infections…”
Well, bless your heart for conceding such an obvious fact. I’m sure it must have been difficult given your historic unease with the topic of Right-wing actions and their consequences. Whenever that subject is raised you suddenly decide that all knowledge is impossible and it’s fruitless to even try. Given your tone, you actually seem indignant about it. Some points :
1. The basic facts aren’t changed by your spirited efforts : The Right campaigned against vaccinations. The Right’s adherents had much lower vaccination rates. Lower vaccination rates meant more death. But you seem to be claiming this is the one sociological phenomena that can’t be studied. This one area of study is impossible (impossible!) to analyze with with any rigorous results. Gee, I wonder why?
2. You speak of political motivations warping the findings of statistical studies. So what about the Yale study linked? Granted, it’s not half way around the world (which is where you regularly scurry off to when the healthcare policy of Right-wingers here is discussed), but maybe you can address it nonetheless. Its conclusions were conservative but it did have conclusions. Its scope was limited but still substantial. You have no qualms riffing conclusions off the top of your head to alibi the Right, so why not riff on that?
3. I’ve asked you this before and you’ve ducked the question: Did Right-wing vaccination policy result in unnecessary death and what would be your guess on that number? You only want to talk about how the Right is safe from ever facing any real accounting of their policy. You seem to find great personal comfort in that “fact”. Still, step back and give us your opinion on the big picture.
grb,
Your replies as usual rely on insults and mind-reading.
"where you regularly scurry off to when the healthcare policy of Right-wingers here is discussed' This is your usual BS, because you actually don't care a wit about the medical science, but only bout your partisan crappola. I have never made any alibis for the Right about SARS-CoV-2 policy, because that has never been my concern.
But you routinely ascribe politics to anyone who does not agree 100% with your nonsense.
I'll answer your question 3) directly. For the first two years of the pandemic some (but not all) people who declined vaccination for what ever reason died "needlessly." There will never be a "solid number" because you nor anyone else has any means of correcting for the influence of co-morbifdities or environmental factors.
"You only want to talk about how the Right is safe from ever You any real accounting of their policy. "
More of your outright lies, simple mind-raping.
"Well, bless your heart for conceding such an obvious fact."
By the way that is not so obvious as applied to any of the omicron variants for which mortality is less than H1N1 influenza and for which it is very difficult to separate dying with COVID from dying of COVID.
"But you seem to be claiming this is the one sociological phenomena that can’t be studied."
Learn to read. I never said that. I won't comment on that study directly without analyzing it in detail. I did comment on your politicized summary of what you think the study showed
I also noticed that you skipped over most of what I wrote because it did not fit your political diatribe.
Well, we seem have reduced the latitude your excuse-mongering allows. That’s progress to build upon:
So which is it? Is it “impossible” to study the effects of political anti-vaxx campaigning on the vaccination rate of that party’s believers? I don’t see why that would be impossible using modern research techniques. God knows we see more complicated issues studied and quantified all the time.
Or maybe it’s “impossible” to study the effects of vaccination rates on covid mortality. Certainty it wouldn’t be clear cut – the numbers would have to be controlled for other factors – but that’s just standard statistical analysis. Again, studies regularly deal with phenomena equally variegated.
Yet from these two very possible things, you’ve built this giant wall of impossibility – much higher than China’s Great Wall – surely visible from outer space or the very surface of the moon.
So here’s what I see: It’s not that a study of the effects of GOP policy on covid healthcare is impossible – that’s totally absurd despite your determined obfuscation. Instead you find the idea “petty” and “unsporting”. To think of the Right harassed and harangued over a few-score-thousand pointless deaths is just so “partisan” (said as your mouth twists in a moue of distaste). And all over a little bit of fun with vaccines as a political issue? Who could possibly be so small-minded as to worry your Right over a quibble like that? Only someone tasteless and tacky at once....
Still, the Yale study suggests their are people who lack your rarefied sensibilities (no doubt cretins all). Probably more to come as well. It’s all so gosh-darn icky…..
Can you actually give an example of "The Right" campaigning against vaccinations?
You are one of those that screamed when Trump took credit for the vaccines being created.
Did you find a guy on Twitter? One that wasn't RFK, either, but someone that was "The Right"?
What "Right-wing vaccination policy" was it that you think killed people? Was it pushing to develop the vaccines "impossibly" fast? Was it encouraging people to get vaccinated?
Captain, how do feel about the following categories of speech:
1. The Noble Lie: It's false, and the speaker knows it is false, but sincerely intends to save lives. Furthermore, for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that it actually does save lives.
2. Pointing Out that the Noble Lie is a Lie: The speaker is actually correct on the facts. However, let's stipulate that the truth will in fact confuse a lot of people and cause them to make decisions about health care that will lead to increased deaths.
Should either, or both, be censored? Do the speakers in either case have a right to be sincerely mistaken, either about saving lives in the first case, or simply wrong on the facts in the second case?
That is completely and totally beside the point.
"…nobody got sick or died by the assertion…"
Information doesn’t cause illness or injury.
krychek - "But a government Ministry of Truth? Nah. That’s a really bad idea. And I’m a Democrat."
Then why are you not calling out the democrats who are behind the censorship
Because there are only so many hours in the day.
Then we agree.
So why is the administration and the media and at least some democratic members of Congress pushing so hard in favor of this?
The media is particularly galling. Have they no concept of what happens to their profession absent freedom of speech?
"If the government is going to get involved in stamping out misinformation"
It will stamp out the "misinformation" that is critical of the government. Whether that's real or not.
See, you're the one spewing misinformation here. Almost all of those assertions are incorrect.
David Nieporent 44 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Not commenting on the Hunter laptop story other than it’s beginning, but you may recall that someone on the left organized a bunch of people from the security state to assure us all that it was Russian misinformation knowing themselves that it wasn’t.
See, you’re the one spewing misinformation here. Almost all of those assertions are incorrect."
So the letter stating the hunter laptop had all the indices of russian disinformation signed by 50+ former intellegence experts never existed.
Oh, there was a letter. But notice how you changed the description of it?
1) It was by former intelligence officials, not people from the security state.
2) They did not say it was Russian misinformation; they actually said that it had the earmarks (I think they meant hallmarks) of Russian misinformation but that they had no evidence and did not know. That disclaimer wasn't buried on a footnote on page 17; it was one sentence after the previous claim.
3) How on earth could they possibly have known that it wasn't Russian disinformation? Remember that they were not referring to a laptop; they were referring to emails published by the NYPost from a disk image that nobody had seen.
Those earmarks did not exist.
Michael Ejercito : “Those earmarks did not exist”
That’s strange, because they exist to this day. I guess I need to walk you thru the history, so here we go:
1. Rudy Giuliani spent almost almost two years rooting around every sordid corner of Ukraine with his two low-grade hoods, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman – looking for Hunter Biden dirt.
2. Along the way he trafficked with the disgraced prosecutor Shokin and oligarchs under U.S. sanction or indictment, like Andrii Derkach or Dmytro Firtash. At one point the CIA warned Trump’s White House that Rudy was “interacting with people tied to Russian intelligence during a December 2019 trip” (see link below).
3. Then election October arrives and – Surprise! – Rudy produces a Hunter Biden hard drive. The explanation (if I can type straight for laughing) was the “blind Trump fanatic computer repairman”
Now, it became apparent in a matter of days that most (if not all) of the hard drive information was legit. And how did we know that? First, because of the nondenial denials from the Biden camp. Second, because some of the messages and information was independently confirmed. Third, the lap top had all the scandal impact of a squib soaked in a bucket of water. Never was a nothing more nothing than the laptop. Its tiny little scandalettes didn’t even twitch the shock-value meter. It wasn’t long before a frustrated Rudy (and the NY Post) started making new promises they could never quite deliver (like child pornography).
So, yeah, the contents were (mostly) real. However, given the comical cover story and Giuliani’s year-plus whoring in Ukraine, everything else stank (and stinks) to high heaven. Which means everything about the laptop drives needs due caution. We don’t know where Rudy bought it or who he bought it from.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/15/politics/rudy-giuliani-russian-intelligence-misinformation-operation-trump/index.html
You seem bizarrely proud to find "indicia" of Russian disinformation in true facts.
You seem bizarrely proud in ducking and avoiding true facts.
It is amusing you are accusing others of "denying true facts" when you are actively spewing debunked conspiracy theories.
The owner of the laptop admitted it was real, the FBI admitted it was real, the people mentioned in the emails admitted they were real, and yet here you are. Still insisting "Which means everything about the laptop drives needs due caution. We don’t know where Rudy bought it or who he bought it from" when, in fact, we do know those things.
At least, people that don't insist on conspiracy theories.
They’ll never take me alive, David.
That's what David Koresh thought, too. No, wait, bad example.
"lion’s share of the false information out there is Republican."
Classic "my side good, your side bad".
Diebold in 2004, "hands up don't shoot" in Ferguson, "mostly peaceful" Floyd riots, a "pee" tape, cannot say "gay" in Florida.
Bob from Ohio : (Five things and completely screws up two)
Two points :
1. For the umpteenth time, there was a “Trump Sex Tape” circulating in Russia. How in the world can you be ignorant about such a simple fact after all this time ?!? The good news, Bob, is it was universally considered a fake, created by criminal elements behind the Russian real estate conglomerate Crocus Group (which helped host the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow).
The bad news, Bob, is Trump still considered the tape such a problem he dispatched fixer Michael Cohen to suppress it. Cohen used Russian-American businessman Giorgi Rtskhiladze as a go-between, who reported back : ‘Stopped flow of tapes from Russia but not sure if there’s anything else. Just so you know … .’
Both men testified about the tape before Mueller’s grand jury. Both men turned over email and texts from the time concerning the tape. The tape has a tiny little place in Mueller’s final report. Didn’t you know any of this ?!? Were you completely clueless ?!?
2. Sorry to disabuse you, but 93% of Floyd protests were peaceful :
https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/
Geez, Bob, such is your addiction to misinformation you can’t even come up with counter-examples without looking foolish…
The “pee” tape was pushed as real by your side. You are admitting it was misinformation. Thanks.
Activist group “reports” are worth squat. Media used "mostly peaceful" when flames were behind the reporter!
Bob from Ohio : ” … (frantic weaseling) …”
1. The tape was a rumor reported by Steele. The rumor was true; the tape exists. Actually, for raw intelligence Steele did pretty good. From my vast knowledge of espionage (from reading many a spy novel. I’m on a Mick Herron binge as we speak), I’d say Steele did better than most dossiers of raw intelligence.
2. You said “mostly peaceful” Floyd riots was misinformation. 93 percent to 7 counts as “mostly peaceful”. No doubt your fantasies of black savages blinded you to the fact you were 93% wrong.
But – hey – that’s better than usual. Typically you’re totally wrong. A few more posts that are 7% right and you can really up your average.
Go fer’t Bob! We’re all rooting for you…
If the tape exists why has it never been shown? We had all sorts of people trying to find it. They offered sizable bounties for it and searched everywhere. But to this day nobody has ever shown it have they?
It's a sort of inverse Anselm's proof; As Trump is, by definition, the worst being imaginable, and anything he's accused of not being true would mean that you could imagine someone worse, (Identical to Trump except that the accusation actually was true...) it's logically impossible for any accusation directed at Trump to not be true.
1. Trump asked Cohen to suppress the tape.
2. Cohen used Giorgi Rtskhiladze to get that done.
3. Cohen & Rtskhiladze testified to the grand jury about this.
4. They also turned over their communications about the tape.
5. Mueller documented this in his report.
What does scholastic philosophy from the Middle Ages have to do with any of that, Brett?
So no tape? Come on if it existed someone would have found it by now.
Don’t look at me; I’ve only seen one grainy still. To be fair, I could probably find it if I tried, but even if it is on the cruder side of fakery, I’m still afraid of frying my eyeballs.
But, tell me: Does all this help you pretend away the grand jury testimony? I have exhausting experience with Brett’s coping mechanisms in this forum when he switches into Sgt Schultz-mode to ignore a Trump issue. You, less so.
Since it won't let me reply to your other comment. One supposed grainy still=no tape exists. They tried for years to find it and found nothing.
Does that really make you feel better? I mean, the tape is an established fraud. I don't even discredit Trump for seeing it buried, fraud or not. It's just funny that the tape is Right's go-to example of something "made-up" by nefarious Leftists and that's simply not true. Has never been true.
Seems like a pretty ragged teddy bear to clutch to your chest as you drift off at night, but if if's that important to you......
It's a humorous analogy, nitwit.
A word of advice : Medieval scholastic philosophers ain’t the go-to source for humor of any kind. All in all, they were a very unhumorous bunch – tending towards the very dry.
On the other hand, Heloise and Abelard have the making of a pretty good Movie of the Week, albeit with some awkward painful elements.
They can be pretty funny if you're familiar with them, though.
The Disinformation Left is now gaslighting us about what the Steel Dossier claimed. It wasn't that Russia forged a pee tape. Steele's actual claim was that Trump really hired prostitutes to pee on that bed, and that Russia's spies recorded that.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/8x7xk5/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-trump-pee-pee-tape
https://www.businessinsider.com/durham-indictment-casts-doubt-trump-pee-tape-steele-dossier-2021-11
Steele reported that they probably recorded it, because the Ritz Carlton "was known to be under FSB control with microphones and concealed cameras in all the main rooms to record anything they wanted to". He doesn't say there definitely is a tape.
See Report 80, detail para. 3.
So, no rebuttal to the fact that Steele was enough of a sucker to cite multiple sources that Trump hired the pee prostitutes.
Or maybe Steele was a willing collaborator with Russian disinformation.
Your link on Durham is particularly hilarious – and also a pretty good indication what a hack Durham is. He goes through pretzel gymnastics trying to cast aspersions on the source of the tape rumor while completely ignoring Mueller’s proof there was an actual tape behind the rumor.
So the only thing behind his sweaty weaseling is spin and blowing smoke. Durham purposely ignores Mueller’s report because it invalidates his public relation objective : Suggesting the rumor was some nefarious fabrication. Instead, the rumor existed because the tape existed, full stop.
That’s Durham all over. He always prioritized narrative over facts, even to the point of burying the latter to preserve all his little “stories”. Of course Mueller was the exact opposite, refusing to provide tidy narratives and letting the facts speak for themselves. He came out of his Special Counsel appointment with his reputation intact. Durham came out looking like a hackish clown.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you ever want to give an example of blind, ignorant partisanship, just point to this post by grb.
Seriously, "[Mueller] came out of his Special Counsel appointment with his reputation intact. Durham came out looking like a hackish clown"?
Which one of these two concluded that someone might be guilty because the investigation had been unable to prove he wasn't?
So 7% weren’t. That’s 70 out of a thousand, or 700 out of ten thousand.
Or 70 billion out of a trillion! Glad we can all do math.
grb’s 93% standard applied more generally:
– Roughly 95% of the crowd on January 6th didn’t enter the building. Not only was January 6th mostly peaceful, it was mostly perfectly legal.
– Roughly 85% of combat troops in WWII didn’t fire their weapons at the enemy at all. grb concludes that WWII was only moderately peaceful.
– The Klan had about 3 million members in the 1920’s. During that decade there were under 1000 lynchings. Even if 200 Klansmen participated in each lynching, with no repeats, the 1920’s KKK still meets the grb criteria for mostly peaceful.
Good point,
Grand Kleagle and former WVA Senator Robert KKK Bird (D) never lynched anyone, as far as anyone knows.
That WW2 Stat always sounded like BS, somebody killed several million German Soldiers, my grandfather for one (One Grandfather in the US Army, other was a German Civilian, what a country!!!!)
Frank
The WW2 stat is quite possible. Remember it is limited to ground troops and their personal firearms. So artillery, tanks, bombs and the like can account for a lot of the enemy dead. The other factor to consider is that there were a lot of American troops there( several million). If even only 15% ended up in actual combat that is still several hundred thousand ground troops firing their weapons.
Since this is just meaningless drivel in any larger sense, I don’t mind pitching-in to help :
It’s a well known fact a majority of soldiers don’t fire their weapons during combat. One well-know and systematic study was by S.L.A. Marshall and concerned WWII. His research showed a small percentage (15% – 25%) of US soldiers actually fired their weapons. One reason he proposed was marksmanship training itself.
As for me, when I went thru Basic for the Army National Guard we spent a lot of time on the range. I was pretty darn good from the foxhole, still good from the prone position, and less so kneeling. We qualified on a 300 meter range with pop-up targets, different distances overlapping. Overall, I was in the upper half of the mid-range of three qualification levels.
Later I was issued a M-203 and qualified expert with a grenade launcher. To be fair, all five or six of us on the range did. Close counts in grenades. (As a kid, I was pretty good with horseshoes too)
DS,
I don't understand the point of this.
Those who commit crimes need to be arrested. Those who don't need to be let go, no matter the percentages.
Whatever you think about the Floyd demonstrations being "mostly peaceful," the vast majority of participants surely were peaceful.
Which is why it was so dumb for Democrats to attack Rittenhouse…the peaceful protesters would generally go home by sunset and then the troublemakers would come out along with vagrants like the criminals Rittenhouse shot.
Let me add something.
IMO all the sarcasm and sneering about "mostly peaceful" is in fact an effort to tar the overwhelming majority of demonstrators who were in fact peaceful with the behavior of those who weren't.
Sounds a little like January 6th = ...tar the overwhelming majority of demonstrators who were in fact peaceful with the behavior of those who weren’t.
No one I have ever seen goes against the folks who went to the protests and didn't break into the Capitol.
Blind, deaf and dumb is no way to go through life, champ.
Show your work.
Correct.
I have no interested in assigning blame to those who just attended a rally.
But the sneerers are trying to assign blame to peaceful protestors.
IMO all the sarcasm and sneering about “mostly peaceful” is in fact an effort to tar the overwhelming majority of demonstrators who were in fact peaceful with the behavior of those who weren’t.
Or, more likely that it was a smear in an effort to tar the MSM idiots who were putting out this obvious misinformation/propaganda/bullshit while standing in front of people committing arson, looting and rioting. YMMV.
What are you referring to?
Very great point!
In terms of billions of dollars in damage, would you say it was closer to the most peaceful protests in our history, or the most unpeaceful protests in our history?
Bob, on occasion "my side good, your side bad" is actually true, though if you go back and re-read my comment -- slowly and carefully this time -- I acknowledged there are counter examples.
Krycheck, in the 90s the Clinton administration sent fliers to every household and terrified them that everyone, including heterosexuals were at risk of getting AIDS. They intentionally created a national panic and people who had no risk go get frequently tested at clinics. This scare lasted for years.
They did this to reduce the association of HIV with homosexuals and to reduce the stigma of being a homosexual.
Is there anything you can think of that compares to that level of misinformation?
BravoCharlieDelta : ” … and terrified them … ”
Golly. Why can’t I remember being “terrified” during the 90s, like BravoCharlieDelta? Of course we established a few threads back that he’s a very nervous individual, excitable in a twitchy kinda way, and frequently given to panic attacks or fear. So probably we just had a different reaction. I read a health alert and shrugged. He read the same and collapsed on the floor sobbing.
Here’s another puzzler : I’m a plus-sixty year-old white guy, but can’t recall any time I’ve been oppressed. But, I must have been, right? I’m white! I’m male! Per the right-wing whiner snowflakes on this site, I suffer constant relentless tyranny due to those facts.
Strange I’ve never experienced that once…..
$600M in 90s dollars and 9 years of CDC messaging of “everyone is at risk” and all you remember seeing was a single health alert and you shrugged?
Maybe in your old, and I mean very very very fucking old, age your memories aren’t that reliable? Or maybe you don't remember because you spent those 9 years not having any sex? lol yikes-a-rooni
BravoCharlieDelta : " .... very very very fucking old ..."
Ouch!
I get it, that was a great joke, but I'm not going to let you avoid the point.
$600M in 90s dollars and 9 years of CDC messaging of “everyone is at risk” and all you remember seeing was a single health alert and you shrugged?
Go back to your AOL message board boomer!
lol, you know, I was doing some mentoring at a student incubator once and the guy who was sponsering it had made his internet millions as an early AOL something or ‘nother. He told me they still had 2.5M dial up subscribers. In 2014.
Can you believe that? Who the ef was still dialing-up to AOL internet in 2014? They most be those backwater bumpkins the Good Reverand keeps talking about.
Well, I'm pretty old, and I recall the efforts to make me terrified about AIDS. Didn't work on me, because I knew too much biology, but I could tell what they were trying to do, at least. They really were desperate to convince people that AIDS was a medical threat to the entire population, rather than male homosexuals, IV drug abusers, and unfortunates who got blood transfusions from the former.
Funny, Brett.
I was around for all that too, and wasn't terrified either. And it's not because I'm a biologist or physician.
It's because I read the ordinary newspapers, which reported the stuff you seem to think there was a conspiracy to conceal. As always, a conspiracy, and Brett saw right through it.
Strictly tops that were circumcised weren’t even at high risk. Bottoms were at highest risk and then uncircumcised tops. Magic Johnson came out publicly in 1991 and so the notion it was the Clinton administration that started it is pretty absurd.
Clinton and the CDC spent $600M trying to tell everyone they were at risk.
This is an irrefutable fact.
Ok, boomer.
bernard11 : “As always, a conspiracy, and Brett saw right through it”
He’s so damn good at that! (grb said with undisguised admiration)
That said, I used to do an annual beach weekend with high school buds. All of them are right-wing walking-undead ditto-zombies who never saw a Fox News “report” they could see thru (but, ya know, really good folk asides from that).
Back in the day, one of them explained how the government focus on AIDS was some teh-gay conspiracy. So I asked : We have a disease that appeared out of nowhere, has one of the highest mortality rates of any disease known to man and in just a few years is killing a half-million Americans a year. And you think it’s strange the government is concerned ?!? Do you think it would get less attention if it affected a different group than gays ?!?
To be fair, his response was notably sheepish. But his first reaction had been the Great Gay Conspiracy.
It seems to be in their blood. Or maybe a deep-rutted track in their grey-matter that the wheels just naturally slip into.
The original name for it was GRIDS.
Do you know what that stood for? Gay-Related Immuno-Deficency Syndrome. They rebranded it and then spent 9 years telling everyone they were at risk for it.
When they weren’t.
That’s not a conspiracy. That’s a historical fact. It’s funny how when you need to, you sure can remember a lot more convenient stuff.
Kinda neat noodle you got there. Only remember stuff that’s convenient when it’s convenient!
I think what happened is that some people in government honestly thought that if the public understood that most of the victims of AIDS were male homosexuals and IV drug abusers, and that almost all of the straights who weren't IV drug abusers who caught it were in some sense victims of the first two groups, that the public would refuse to pony up for treatment and prevention.
So, convinced of the public's moral depravity, they set out to deceive the public about the nature of the threat, telling them that it was a threat to everyone, so that misled self-interest would substitute for thought to be absent morality.
So, a "noble lie", but of course all "noble lies" are lies, and it's a bad thing for the government to get into the habit of lying to its citizens.
they set out to deceive the public about the nature of the threat, telling them that it was a threat to everyone, so that misled self-interest would substitute for thought to be absent morality.
Utter bullshit, Brett, with your usual "they" thrown in. Who were "they," and how did they set out to deceive people?
And note, if they did try that they did a remarkably incompetent job, since, again, the facts you claim "they" were trying to conceal were widely and often reported in the media. Despite your implication and boast, it took no special knowledge of biology - what did you do, by the way, analyze the virus somehow? - to learn these facts.
Wait, let me guess. They didn't conceal the facts because they were incompetent, as all government employees necessarily are, so of course they failed, thereby proving Bellmore's point. Somehow.
The CDC bernard, the CDC. That's the "they".
https://wayback.archive-it.org/org-350/20170510155827/https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/survivingandthriving/digitalgallery/america-responds-to-AIDS.html
Now pretend you never saw this and continue to act like it's a conspiracy theory to claim the CDC ran a "everyone is at risk" national campaign for 9 years.
BCD, I think at the time that was believed to be true, and worldwide, it is true. If you go to sub-Saharan Africa, AIDS is primarily a heterosexual disease.
But the standard, in any event, is what was known at the time, not what has been discovered since. And at the time, it was completely reasonable to be concerned that it might spread to the heterosexual population.
It’s original name was GRID before that they thought it was "gay cancer".
Gay-Related Immuno Deficiency . Gay Cancer.
They didn’t go from knowing it was gay related, to thinking everyone was going to get it, to going back to knowing it was gay related.
Further, contemporary policies support the “stigma” case.https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/making-a-difference/standing-up-to-stigma/
It's original name was before anyone knew it was caused by a virus and the only information at hand was that gay men were disproportionately at risk, at least in the United States. Other diseases are no longer called Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Japanese encephalitis, German measles, or Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever for the same reason. Once better information comes in, there's no reason to stigmatize the group unlucky enough to have first been exposed to it.
And your claim that it's gay-related simply ignores that worldwide, most cases are heterosexual. That's true in Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and Southeast Asia. Don't forget that in the early days, being Haitian was considered high risk.
One side prefers reason, education, modernity, inclusiveness, science, the reality-based world, and progress. That side also prefers strong teaching and research institutions and modern, successful communities.
The other side prefers superstition, ignorance, backwardness, bigotry, insularity, dogma, and pining for illusory "good old days." That side also prefers nonsense-teaching religious schools, disaffected homeschooling, and desolate, can't-keep-up rural and southern backwaters.
Which is the good side and which is the bad side is a personal preference.
Just today, the big thing on MAGA twitter (I refuse to call it "x") is to insinuate that Obama had his chef (!) murdered this past weekend. The more malevolent ones just say that; the others just insinuate it by "Just Asking Questions" and calling for an "investigation."
During the last election, Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory from a QAnon source that said Obama had Seal Team 6 murdered.
Which raises a question for the Trump bootlickers who frequent this forum: You frequently whine he got such bad press. But this despicable act barely got the briefest mention in the news. With a normal president such crude dishonest conduct would have garnered major headlines. Likewise for any normal politician – or human being, for that matter.
With Trump it was just Tuesday. Obama’s summer suits or choice of hot dog condiment were major scandals back in his day. The press would be barely focused on one example of DJT's terrible-two behavior or ethical misconduct, when two or three more whizzed by their heads.
By any normal standard Trump got off easy. There was neither time or room enough (media-wise) to cover all the ways he’s a loathsome turd,
"But this despicable act barely got the briefest mention in the news."
A RT is not worth any more than the value you choose to assign it. Normal participating members of society understand that RTs do not imply endorsement.
Kleppe : "...not worth any more than the value you choose to assign it..."
Truly an awesome definition of Truth in this Post-Trump Post-Modern Age!
RTs not implying agreement or endorsement is such a common understanding that it doesn't even need to be stated explicitly. I regret that you missed the boat on that one.
I hear that from public intellectuals. I'd be interested in why you think Trump might have retweeted QAnon folks if not to amplify to his crowd.
Idiots are going to idiot. When I saw the headline about his chef drowning(?) I figured that someone would come up with this crap. Perhaps the chef came across Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate accidentally stuffed inside a recipe book. Or something.
The rest of us should just ignore them. Do you think 5% of the population is even aware of this claim? That anything approaching 1% of the population (a bit over 3 million people since today is Math Day) believes it could be true. Nobody should care.
Does suggesting that make me MAGA?
I saw a report about it at Not The Bee, but there weren't any suggestions that the Obamas had him killed. This is the first I've heard of that rumor, but, yeah, idiots are going to idiot.
And so, you think any such insinuations should be suppressed and eliminated via government power?
The thread has this as a thesis: "The reason more Republicans oppose suppressing misinformation is that a significant chunk of the misinformation out there is right wing conspiracy theories that benefits Republicans."
I don't know about this theory. Look at the numbers in the OP. Republican opinion is virtually identical 2018-2023. But Democrat opinion swings 30 percentage points in favor of government censorship of online speech in five years. If it was purely a matter of "who's in power," one would expect similar swings on both sides.
You cite a variety of right-wing hoaxes, including Vince Foster suicide theories, various accusations against Hillary Clinton, Obama-born-in-Kenya, and allegations that the 2020 election was stolen. But only the latter took place in the interim between 2018 and 2023. Moreover, the 2020 election theft allegations were a failure. Numerous Trump-appointed judges threw out various legal challenges and some have sanctioned the lawyers that brought them. Why would so many Democrats conclude from this relatively swift systemic rejection of the election theft allegations that there isn't enough online censorship?
Seems more likely this has something to do with COVID measures, responses, etc., although that isn't a great explanation either. By now, one would think some significant cohort of Democrats would be having second thoughts about the folly of various government excesses, such as suppressing the lab leak theory, excessive demand for masking, and the harms imposed by overzealous school closures. Why would so many of them believe, in 2023, that the real problem was government failing to control the message? That seems so obviously wrong. With the benefit of hindsight, one would think we should be moving toward a consensus that many of the most significant COVID-era mistakes were the result of panicked groupthink and top-down public-health authoritarianism. That would seem to suggest a shift against government control of online speech. But Republicans are unchanged and Democrats are lurching toward censorship.
Great comment. I think it could suggest that there is a non-trivial portion of our society whose opinions, values, and beliefs can be easily, and intentionally, manipulated in a particular direction.
Look how quickly the Left went from transgenders just want to go to a particular bathroom to transing their kids. It was a historical blink of the eye. That doesn't happen to people who form their own opinions.
BravoCharlieDelta : “Look how quickly….”
Gotta be the least self-aware comment in the history of mankind!
There are transsexuals today, transsexuals yesterday – ten years ago, twenty years ago, a hundred years ago. Aside from Jenner, people barely noticed. Then BCD’s handlers decided he needed to be “outraged” about this tiny group of people. So they stuck a cable into the download port at the base of his skull and did an “outrage” dump into his brain.
Since then our poor little ewe can’t go three comments without sputtering rants on the trans menace. And for every one mention of them from the Left, their are thousands from the Right. For every one bill from the Left protecting trans people, there are hundreds from the Right targeting them. Hundreds upon hundreds of bills in these past two years. And all the Right’s sheep go bleat – bleat – bleat in perfect unison.
Of course there’s no real mystery in this zombified oneness. The Right finds trans folk as the sole remaining group they can publicly hate without backlash. And they’ve taken to that hate like a rake to an orgy.
And this all happened with the snap of a finger. They were told what to think and feel. They obeyed.
Is your brain not working again?
You remember there being just as many transgender adults and kids 10 or 20 years ago as there are today? And they were all around us, kids gender clinics and all, except the Right was too busy making fun of the queers to notice?
Is that what you believe to be true?
"The reason more Republicans oppose suppressing misinformation "
Is because "misinformation" like Hunter's laptop that seeks to be suppressed, seemingly has a political bias.
When Democrats say "misinformation" they mean "truth that is politically inconvenient," like the following:
Human CO2 is not the cause of climate change
Blacks are just as smart as whites
Women are just as apt in math and science as men are.
Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved a million Amurican lives
Little know fact which I ran across recently.
Prior to the expected invasion of the Japanese mainland the government manufactured almost 500,000 Purple Heart Medals.
After all of the medals awarded since then in the various conflicts
over 120,000 still remain.
Or that hoppy025 has two brain cells to rub together.
The nation’s Cognitive Infrastructure is too important to National Security to go unmanaged by the experts in the Federal Government.
It’s just too important. National Security is at stake. Or Public Health Security. Or Social Justice Security. Or Climate Justice Security.
These are too important not to be managed by the government experts.
The Pentagon said that Diversity Equity Justice Security is critical to the nation's Warfighting Capabilities. How can we, as a nation, allow Equity Malinformation to harm our National Security? The Pentagon said so.
Republicans have become much more supportive of heavy regulations of private social media platforms to make sure they make the right choices.
To the point of making them common carriers.
Not hard to see what's going on there either.
Bullshit as always.
A big difference there though. The Democrats want the right to silence the other side while the Republican plan would make the social networks treat everyone the same and allow all to speak.
The OP is about false statements. Your comment is a lot more telling than I think you intended.
You compared one side that wants the right to censor to the other side that wants to prevent censorship and declared both sides are bad. Personally I oppose government censorship and if a business such as a social network makes the claim of being a platform then it should be held to the standards of a platform if it wants the right to censor it's rules must be clear and equally enforced or it is acting as a publisher and should face the same standards and liabilities as other publishers.
Telling a company they must choose to associate with this speech or that is not really a free speech move.
Platforms don't have dedicated standards, they're just a type of product.
"Bronny James' cardiac arrest is linked to the COVID-19 vaccine, Elon Musk suggests
Twitter CEO Elon Musk weighed in on the news about NBA legend's son"
From the Daily Mail.
So is this disinformation or opinion?
Omg where’s CISA and Homeland Security? Bronny is a Person of Color and Public Health Equity Justice Security is too important to our Cognitive Infrastructure and our National Security.
SOMEONE IN THE GOVERNMENT DOO SOMMMEEETHINNNGGG!!!
It's stupidity.
Some people will believe it.
"So is this disinformation or opinion?" Yes. Both.
That's Not Happening. And It's Good That It Is.
Yes, commenters taking issue with the OP have variations as to their specific objections.
This is doublespeak, if you pretend all commenters are one commenter.
Whew! Just in time Saracstr0, someone posted an Unapproved Comment that harms Cognitive Infrastructure.
Hopefully he heeds your careful and authoritative counsel and doesn't harm our National Security.
Loose lips sinks ships!! teeeheee *wink*
From a Pew survey on free speech:
"In 2018, Democrats supported free speech by a 57-40 margin, almost identical to the Republican view. They now oppose it by 70-28, a massive shift over the last five years, while Republican views have not changed. "
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/the-scariest-poll-youll-see-this
I don't think that's a DHS-approved opinion giver.
You're harming this country.
“DHS plans to target inaccurate information on “the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic and the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, racial justice, U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the nature of U.S. support to Ukraine.””
“In a March meeting, Laura Dehmlow, an FBI official, warned that the threat of subversive information on social media could undermine support for the U.S. government. ”
https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformation-dhs/
This is why the Democrats approve of censorship. They can’t control their preferred narratives without it.
Bear with me, a bit of a long story, but it has a point.
Back in the early 70's 1973 to be precise, when I was 5 my parents decided they wanted to instill an interest in the world to me, so they bought me a poster sized world map, a box of thumbtacks, a stack of aerogrammes, and a short wave radio. The idea was I could listen to a station on the shortwave, use an aerogramme to send a reception report, and when I got a response with a QSL Card, put a thumbtack on the world map.
Well the US Government runs a station called WWV, out of Fort Collins, Colorado (there is also WWVH out of Hawaii). All it does is tell you the exact time, once a minute, every minute, 24/7/356. You can pick it up all day every day, anywhere in the country.
I decided eventually that I'd send off a report to try get get a QSL. What I got back was interesting. I got a letter apologizing that they could not verify my report because it was, in fact, illegal, for the US Government except in ties of a national emergency, to broadcast any information to the domestic audience, up to and including the time of day.
It got me to thinking recently how far we had come from that letter to a government telling every media outlet what to publish or broadcast, and what not to disseminate.
That's a really great story.
It is a great story, but I wonder if they were having you on.
1948’s Smith-Mundt Act authorized the State Department to operate an information service to “disseminate abroad information about the United States, its people, and policies promulgated by the Congress, the President, the Secretary of State and other responsible officials of Government having to do with matters affecting foreign affairs”. The post-war Voice of America was under that umbrella, and the “disseminate abroad” limitation was a deliberate attempt by Congress to aim government propaganda only at foreigners. As a result until the restrictions were eased in 2013 Americans couldn’t legally be provided VOA programming, even if they asked for it, even if they filed a FOIA request.
However I don’t see how that restriction could have applied to information services that didn’t rely on that statute. WWV had been operated by the National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) since the 1920s, and the government has been broadcasting National Weather Service information for domestic aviation since the 50s.
Returning back to the meta question, why have Dems become MORE willing to be censored in the past 5 years? According to this poll, they used to object to it just the same as Republicans. Now they are almost twice as likely to approve.
The explanation needs to account for the self-harm that censorship causes. For example, the warnings that the COVID vaccines might not prevent infection were supressed. That harmed as many Dems as it did Republicans. Such harms were apparently not counted on one side. Why not?
And, it has to account for a reduction in faith, not just practice. Dems stopped believing in the power of free speech. Republicans have not had this same crisis of faith.
My theory is that leftist philosophy is to blame. Not "liberalism", which is politics, but leftism, which is a worldview. I think that Dems have been overtaken by a rebellion of ideas, from within.
At the core of leftism is a critique of the West, expressed as rejections: it rejects of God as the source of morality, rejects the individual as the source of identity, rejects rationality as the source of decision-making, and rejects the family as the source of government.
The ideas being rejected are absolutely foundational. Therefore, to reject them and make it stick demands a highly authoritarian approach. Censorship is thus completely necessary.
All is not lost, however, because these rejections all have one "critical" failing: they don't work. At all. They are culture-destroying, in fact, and we shall soon see their end.
But it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Dems stopped believing in the power of free speech. Republicans have not had this same crisis of faith.
Laughable.
There's your fucking GOP respect for freedom of speech.
And don't get me started on DeSantis.
Single anecdotes refute polls now?
At the core of leftism is a critique of the West
This post brought to you from 1952.
it rejects of God as the source of morality
Fucking leftist Enlightenment.
rejects the individual as the source of identity
Yeah, realizing black skin is a thing means you're no longer an individual.
rejects rationality as the source of decision-making
FUCK YES JOIN THE LEFT REJECT RATIONALITY
rejects the family as the source of government.
That was more the 19th Amendment.
the warnings that the COVID vaccines might not prevent infection were suppressed. That harmed as many Dems as it did Republicans.
See, this opposite of reality take is a great example. The leaders on the right have embraced lying. And it works - witness this pudding head. And that is why they suddenly find lies to be a free speech issue.
And the results of their liefest has been deaths, violence, distrusting our democracy for no reason, etc. Which is info others have noticed. And when the facts change, you change your opinion, eh?
Sunset Joe just announced he ended Cancer as we know it.
Now, what should DHS do about this?
Given their past, they will immediately send out the messaging to the mainstream media to declare Cancer has indeed been cured by Joe Biden and then get the CDC to redefine what "Cancer" is, send their online fact managers to update sources like Wikipedia and scrub Internet Archive and finally coordinate with the socials to ban anyone who says their Gramgram still has cancer.
Meanwhile, the Sarcastr0's, Niges, Krycheks' and grb's of the world will pretend that new Cancer has always been the old Cancer (they will have studies to prove it!), and anyone talking about their GramGram is a QAnon whacko.
Hoo boy, this just came across my browser.
"A Gallup poll has revealed that a massive 83 percent of Democratic voters deny that there is any border crisis in the U.S. despite more than 7 million illegal immigrants being encountered since Joe Biden took office." from the original source
https://news.gallup.com/poll/508565/plurality-say-southern-border-situation-crisis.aspx
This is why they also believe in censorship. They see others not believing what they believe, so they want to censor those people who are saying that's not congruent with what they believe.
Ah, false information.
Who decides?
Some people think atheism is disinformation.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Twitter-now-allowing-immoral-tweets-like-denying-that-God-exists-It-doesnt-make-sense-Shouldnt-the-government-take-action
"Democrats Have Become Much More Supportive than Republicans of the Government Restricting True Information Online"
Fixed it
Rudy Giuliani has joined the lengthening list -- Jenna Ellis, Sidney Powell, and a few others whose names I can't recall -- of un-American Republican-Trump lawyers who have formally admitted their "stolen election" claims (which plenty of clingers continue to embrace) were founded on lies.
How long must we wait for John Eastman to be added to this list? Will he be disbarred before or after he acknowledges he was lying?
It appears Hunter Biden's lawyers are doing law fraud crimes.
Don't worry Sarcastr0, nothing will happen to them.
Unsurprising, it seems to me: People's views on the question likely depends on how much you trust the U.S. government's judgment of what is "false information," and Democrats today trust it more than do Republicans.
Oh, do they? I'm not sure how you're supporting that connection, Eugene. Maybe you could fill the rest of us in.
I have an alternative explanation: Democrats may have different views about the proliferation of false speech online now because we've seen, over the past several years, how misinformation has utterly convinced some of Democrats' friends and family members of things that are demonstrably untrue. Democrats recognize that as the public health and policy problem that it is, even if they maybe don't know the best way to address it. Republicans, meanwhile - fully aware of how they subsist on lies and half-truths - view this as their natural milieu, and any criticism of it a direct threat.
I mean, just peruse the comments here. It's full of half-remembered, half-digested conspiracy theories, confidently recounted and repeated ad nauseam, from the right-wingers. For them, this survey just shows how servile and beneath contempt "liberals" are. They'll just toss this into the poisonous miasma of their consciousness, to draw on later when they want to say something nasty about Democrats. They love misinformation, because it faultlessly confirms all of their priors; I'll wager that not a single one of them has ever changed their mind on any contentious topic, and has only been further convinced whenever they encounter contrary information.
Having been FB-punished for saying an insufficiently supportive thing about masks during the pandemic, having seen the government-to-social media operations via the so-called "Twitter Files" (and being capable of imagining that kind of coordination under a more malicious regime, such as a Trump/DeSantis one), and having watched control exercised by authoritarian regimes around the globe, I can agree generally with anyone who expresses ambivalence about government or private regulation of putatively "false" speech online.
But I can also see why there's a felt need for finding a way to address this problem. Facebook, Twitter, and other social media incentivize the production and dissemination of misinformation, and we have studies that show how compelling misinformation, widely shared within social networks, convinces people. The quaint notion of a "marketplace of ideas," where false speech is identified and pushed out by truthful information, no longer works - if it ever did. We now live in an information environment where all of the incentives reward "hot takes" with only a smattering of truth, and the people least critical of these takes are the ones most likely to share them.
This is the best comment on this entire thread.
How can I tell this was written by a dishonest lefty shit? K2 likes it.
Just kidding, it's because Simple Simon wrote it. K2 is just the icing on the cake.
Those lefty shit paragons of honesty. Believers of only the "Truthiest" of things. Poor, laughable lefty shit Simple Simon.
I notice you didn't actually respond to any of his points.
Were you trying to demonstrate the truth of my assertion that "Republicans, meanwhile – fully aware of how they subsist on lies and half-truths – view [misinformation] as their natural milieu, and any criticism of it a direct threat"?
Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland would love to discuss this subject, but he can not because Prof. Volokh censored and banned him for making fun of and using mean words to describe some conservatives.
Carry on, clinger hypocrites. Especially the cowardly, bigot-hugging hypocrite-in-chief.