The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
"Journalists Should Be Skeptical of All Sources—Including Scientists"
From Nate Silver:
Here's the scandal. In March 2020, a group of scientists — in particular, Kristian G. Andersen the of The Scripps Research Institute, Andrew Rambaut of The University of Edinburgh, Edward C. Holmes of the University of Sydney, and Robert F. Garry of Tulane University — published a paper in Nature Medicine that seemingly contradicted their true beliefs about COVID's origins and which they knew to be misleading. The paper, "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2", has been cited more than 5,900 times and was enormously influential in shaping the debate about the origins of COVID-19.
We know this because of a series of leaked and FOIAed emails and Slack messages that have been reported on by Public, Racket News, The Intercept and The Nation along with other small, independent media outlets. You can find a detailed summary of the claims and a copy of the emails and messages here at Public. There's also good context around the messages here (very detailed) or here and here (more high-level).
The messages show that the authors were highly uncertain about COVID's origins — and if anything, they leaned more toward a lab leak than a spillover from an animal source. But none of that was expressed in the "Proximal Origin" paper, which instead said that "we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible". Granted, there is a little bit of ass-covering — "More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another," they also wrote in the paper. But the message — natural origin good, lab leak bad — was received clearly enough by mainstream news outlets. "No, the new coronavirus wasn't created in a lab, scientists say", reported the CBC in covering the paper. "COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin" was the headline at Science Daily….
What were the authors' motivations to mislead the public? … [Y]ou can find prominent virologists quoted on record as to why the lab leak theory was so problematic — even if it wasn't necessarily wrong. The problems fall into three buckets:
- Evidence of a lab leak could cause a political backlash — understandably, given that COVID has killed almost 7 million people — resulting in a reduction in funding for gain-of-function research and other virological research. That's potentially important to the authors or the authors' bosses — and the authors were very aware of the career implications for how the story would play out;
- Evidence of a lab leak could upset China and undermine research collaborations;
- Evidence of a lab leak could provide validation to Trump and Republicans who touted the theory — remember, all of this was taking place during an election year, and medical, epidemiological and public health experts had few reservations about weighing in on political matters.
To be clear, I'm not sure how COVID originated either. I'd "buy" the lab leak at a 50 percent likelihood (I think this is pretty convincing) and sell it at 80 percent, which still leaves a lot of wiggle room for me to be persuaded one way or the other.
But I think this is a big scandal either way…. The COVID origins story has also been a journalistic fiasco, with the lab leak having been dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" and as misinformation even though many prominent scientists believed it to be plausible all along….
For more, read here.
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"journalists" are only skeptical of "the other side".
This is hardly unique to journalists; EVERYONE has cognitive biases.
It IS an excellent incentive for publishers to attempt to have (dare I say it) a diversity of cognitive biases in their stable of authors and contributors.
Of course, it only works if they don't use the new insights as inputs into the censoring, but rather as more output.
"This is hardly unique to journalists; EVERYONE has cognitive biases."
This is not a case of cognitive bias, this is a case of very deliberately, intentionally lying, to mislead the public at large. Big difference.
concur - deliberate attempt to perpetuate misinformation on ineffective mitigation protocols
masking effectiveness - multitude of flawed masking studies
vaccine effectiveness - (60% failure rate after 6 months and neat 100% failure rate after 12 months). multitude of studies with artificial 6 month end dates to hide the sharp drop in effectiveness
Insistence for vaccinating the portion of the population not at risk for illness especially the insistence on vaccinating children
The repeated claim that vax provides better protection than natural infection, which was quite dubious from the start.
Just some of the many examples - Which the advocates still cling to inspite of the overwhelming evidence that have proven otherwise.
These scientists should suffer serious negative career consequences. They should be fired and they should lose their pensions.
Darth -- a year or more in a miserable jail for merely walking through the Capitol -- these scientists deserve 20 years to life.
We’re not even talking a repressive regime where people get disappeared and their families turned out into the streets...these scientists caved for personal gain.
Tom -- Danish studies indicate a NEGATIVE effectiveness over time -- that one is MORE likely to get the Wuhan disease if vaccinated.
That's you and Nate Silver's take. I don't think that's nearly established by the materials here.
Sarcast0 -- MY take is that Andrew Jackson was right -- each incoming President should fire the entire bureaucracy and hire his folks.
The private communications show the paper’s authors extensively discussing that they believed a lab leak scenario was plausible and maybe even slightly more likely than 50/50. Then they publicly said it was not plausible. How is that not lying? What other evidence of dishonesty would you want to see?
Backchannel conversations versus a publication. Those two rarely align, actually.
I do have questions, sure. But I don't have conclusions like 'this is lying.'
Surely you've collaborated on some thing or other and realize how these dynamics can play out in ways other than lying.
Feel free to elaborate.
I get the idea that in a backchannel conversation you might be more surer of a conclusion, and less fulsome with your caveats, than you would be willing to commit to in a publication.
This one went the other way.
The incentive in a paper is to be as concrete as possible. Often arriving at a consensus includes smoothing over skeptics, or doing some red-teaming.
And, we don't have the complete info. I have questions, but that just means I want them asked; Nate going off on he knows what happened is utterly nonsense based on the evidence provided.
Well, the situation as I see it is this:
All the documents we have show *all* the authors saying, privately, that a lab leak is plausible. Some say they think it's more likely than not, some say it's 50-50. None of them say "I think a lab leak is unlikely."
Then, when the paper comes out it says they *don't* believe a lab leak is plausible.
Unless there's some additional emails showing how they all organically changed their minds based on late-breaking evidence, that's really dishonest. If there is such evidence, you can say 'I told you so.'
So the information may be incomplete, and you aren't really sure about the timeline, and people with experience in academia tell you this is normal churn, but you have a story it suggests and you're going to run with it.
'all the information I have' is not license to conclude something, at least if you care about the truth.
Your comments about “arriving at a consensus” would only be on point if the authors disagreed. But they all discussed in numerous emails and messages over weeks how a lab leak was plausible if not likely. Then, at the last second, they do a 180 that coincides exactly with the political pressures they faced – pressure not to piss off China, pressure not to say anything that might provoke a public backlash against gain of function research.
You can say it’s possible they had a change of heart. But it’s much more likely they recognized the politics, applied a standard of “we’re not going to say it’s even plausible it’s a lab leak unless we’re faced with ironclad proof that that’s what it was,” and misrepresented their own beliefs about the pandemic's likely origins.
They explained it. One thing they acknowledged was that, like all of us, their feelings about the lab leak hypothesis were largely driven by finding the situation "fishy." But that's not the sort of thing that makes for good science. When they got into the nuts and bolts of the data, the support for a lab leak wasn't there.
"But it’s much more likely they recognized the politics, applied a standard of “we’re not going to say it’s even plausible it’s a lab leak unless we’re faced with ironclad proof that that’s what it was,” and misrepresented their own beliefs about the pandemic’s likely origins."
Especially since they were discussing those issues openly, saying that discussing the lab leak was bad for science, and bad for science in China in particular.
I’m sad Nate Silver fell for this narrative.
There’s nothing unusual about this sequence of events. Scientists have an early, preliminary take, which additional data and deeper analysis contradicts. It would be silly to hold scientists to their initial guesses as if chainging their minds means they’re lying.
Look at the language they used to describe the lab leak. A “series of coincidences.” “Circumstantial.” “Fishy.”
We all thought it was very fishy coincidence. But that’s not scientific. They examined at the data and in the final analysis, they looked past their human suspicions and determined natural evolution to be the liklier origin.
There’s nothing remarkable about that at all. Shame on Nate and Eugene for trying to undermine science by creating strawmen from the release of private sausage-making discussions. Sorry if you somehow assumed that scientists are gods whose initial guesses are always accurate and should be immediately published as truth.
"There’s nothing unusual about this sequence of events. Scientists have an early, preliminary take, which additional data and deeper analysis contradicts."
Except there was no additional data and deeper analysis that contradicted anything. The lab leak was plausible then and remains plausible today, as the scientists acknowledged.
They said that the lab leak was plausible if not likely, but they said that they didn't want to discuss it because it would be bad for science if it were true. And sure enough, they falsely claimed that the lab leak was implausible.
No, they felt like the lab leak was plausible if not likely, because it was “fishy” and “coincidental” that the lab was right there. But as others have pointed out, it’s not really that fishy and coincidental, because you want to put the virus lab where the viruses are, and they’re in the bats around Wuhan.
Is this what you think they should’ve written?
Plus, there was an actual “further analysis” that caused them to change their minds between the slack message and the paper. If you read through their notes, the only real reason they ever thought it might be a lab leak was the furin thingamabob. Then they found an example where the same thing had occurred naturally. That left zero actual reasons to think it was a lab leak… other than the fishiness.
At one point, newspapers put their biases on their mastheads -- e.g. Springfield (MA) Republican, (NH) Foster's Daily Democrat.
Given the close proximity to a lab researching that very virus, lab leak was always the default explanation. And it was rejected with such absurd certainty that you knew politics had to be the reason.
Much as I’d like to claim I was onto it from the beginning, I was not. I was as convinced as anyone by the “you can’t design this in a lab; human bioengineers aren’t that clever” argument against a lab leak. Which, it turns out, might have been true 10 or so years ago but isn’t true now.
Good reminder that when there is widespread public agreement in a thing combined with lack of empirical evidence for that thing - or a presence of evidence pointing the other way - it’s a red flag that one is in the presence of groupthink. Which, yes, is usually driven by politics.
The question of whether it was designed in a lab is largely separate from the question of whether it was a lab leak. Natural viruses being studied in labs are known to leak from labs, like the 1978 UK smallpox lab leak.
True, good point.
From what I understand, it seems there is also a question of what it means to be "designed in a lab."
There is something called serial passage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_passage where scientists grow viruses in a lab in many generations and iterations, subject them to different environments, observe mutations, and so on. Sort of like breeding animals for development of different characteristics. This is a more basic form of research that has been around for a while.
The authors of the paper would apparently have you believe that the above does NOT count as something that is designed in a lab. According to them, the above is NOT "a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus." Even though the above DOES count as "gain of function." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7435492/
Indeed. I'd assumed from the start it was a lab leak, that they were engaged in gain of function research there came as a surprise to me.
The question of whether it was designed in a lab is largely separate from the question of whether it was a lab leak.
I beg to differ. Suppose the probability that it leaked from a lab, based on knowledge at time X, is 30%; and the probability that it didn’t, is 70%. And suppose that the probabilty that it was lab designed* is 20%, and not so designed 80%.
That whole 20% of design probability comes from the lab leak side of the table. Because the probability of {designed + not a lab leak} is effectively zero**.
Thus if by time X+1 we have discovered new facts that make the odds of a lab leak increase from 30% to 60%, the odds of it being a designed virus also double to 40%.
Although a lab can leak a non designed virus, lab leak and design are not independent variables. Design more or less necessarily implies lab leak, and so lab leak probability is correlated with design probability.
* I include any kind of “resulted from virus research work” within “designed” although some kinds of virus alteration that would not have occured but for the research, are not designed (eg storing different species of animals in your lab where their cooties may intermingle.)
** I include “deliberate release” and “accidental release by virus collectors in the field” within “lab leak” since we are interested in the category of “arose from research activities”
So a lack of evidence about a thing happening leading most people to agree that it hadn't happened, unless more evidence emerges, is what passes for groupthink nowadays?
So, if a bunch of people jump in before there's any evidence on hand, to definitively reject a perfectly plausible explanation for something, yeah, you should be suspicious.
And now we have the smoking gun, and you're still all "nothing to see here, move along". Pathetic.
If a bunch of people jump in and declare that it leaked from a lab with no evidence whatsoever, you should ignore them until the evidence, if any, comes along.
That is not a smoking gun. It's a bunch of experts discussing the issue and deciding there's no evidence of a lab leak, but a lab leak cannot be completely ruled out.
And then publicly announcing that they've ruled it out. Don't forget that part.
They didn't definitively reject anything, and there is no smoking gun. Scientists are allowed to change their minds as they continue to analyze. Are you saying they're not? They have to stick to their initial hunch on pain of being tarred as liars? That's stupid.
Except there are only two theories of COVID origin; natural cross over from wild animals, and lab leak.
The problem ultimately is that there is no more positive evidence for the natural cross over theory than there is for the lab leak theory.
If you read the papers from back in 2020, they talk about precedents set by other coronaviruses, and outbreaks generally.
Is that not positive evidence?
You mean the other outbreaks that didn't originate next to a virology lab dealing in that specific virus? Those outbreaks?
Just because you want to ignore scientific evidence from past research and experience with similar diseases doesn't mean it's actually to be ignored.
Proximity is also evidence, but that lab's location was chosen because it was near a bunch of animal coronavirus reservoirs so location is evidence for both scenarios.
Well, thank you for admitting that proximity is evidence. So, the worst case here is that the lab leak hypothesis was plausible; Why then was it so gratuitously rejected?
Maybe it had something to do with Fauci illegally funding gain of function research into Covid at that lab, so that if it WAS a leak, he was on the hot seat?
It was gratuitously rejected by certain mouthpieces, but not by the scientists.
I think a lot of what's happening here is Nate and Eugene blaming the scientists for the subsequent spin.
And essentializing one report.
I don't know nor do I plan to assume the thinking of those who wrote 'we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible' years ago.
I do wonder what it is, and would love them to answer that, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions; and shame on Nate for doing so.
In other news, plausible but not worth spending resources on or talking up is not an uncommon place for hypotheses to be.
"but that lab’s location was chosen because it was near a bunch of animal coronavirus reservoirs so location is evidence for both scenarios."
Citation needed.
Are you questioning whether the lab is in fact next to a bunch of animal coronavirus reservoirs? If so you're not quified to participate in this discussion.
I have him blocked for sealioning, among other dishonest tactics.
I'm asking for a citation, yes.
So you admit to being, as Sarcastr0 identified, a sealion. Fun! Keep on barking while I throw sardines at you.
Resorting to name-calling when asked to provide evidence of your claims? Typical for you two.
Hm so let's see what happens when I toss you this sardine:
Bats Are Natural Reservoirs of SARS-Like Coronaviruses https://www.ecohealthalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Li-et-al_Science_Bats-as-reservoir-for-SARS.pdf
Nothing about the Wuhan lab’s location being chosen because it was near a bunch of animal coronavirus reservoirs? No wonder you had to resort to name-calling.
Ha ha! “Bark bark bark!” I knew it. Well, Sarcastr0 knew it.
Let's review. Your position is that yes, the lab is next to a bunch of virus reservoirs, but you're banking your argument on the supposition that that was a coincidence?
Or you're just a sealion.
(Remember when I asked you whether you were questioning whether the lab was in fact next to a bunch of animal coronavirus reservoirs? You could’ve just said no. But you didn’t, because as a sealion, you wanted to preserve your option to move the goalposts beyond whatever citation we provided. You can always move the goalposts.)
I would question that.
I've read that the bats being studied at the Wuhan lab were not from caves in the vicinity of Wuhan, but were hundreds of miles away. I could be wrong, but if you're making the claim, that's what you need a source for.
The source I provided above talks about bats in the vicinity of Wuhan being studied at the Wuhan lab.
There's positive evidence of SARS 1 originating in nature. But there are also 6 secondary outbreaks of SARS 1 positively identified as having been caused by lab leaks (see the paper linked in Nate Silver's note.)
Lab leaks of viruses are common.
There was, ab initio, no good reason to prefer a natural origin to a lab leak, or vice versa. As the evidence has come in, including the curious incident of the dog in the night evidence, there is plenty of reason now to prefer the lab leak theory. And lots of this evidence was coming in, in the first half of 2020. The curiosity of the furin cleavage site was identified within only a few days.
But the point of Silver's piece is that the fact that natural origin was not any more likely than a lab leak was known to the Proximal Origin scientists before they wrote their Proximal Origins paper. They, and other virologists had, as Silver explained (and he is roughly No. 203, 466 to that party) good career reasons to poo poo the lab leak theory.
Lab leaks of viruses are common.
Note that no one was using the bare number of zoonotic jumps as a metric in that side of the research.
Because contextless numbers based on arbitrarily scoped criteria are not evidence of much scientifically.
There was, ab initio, no good reason to prefer a natural origin to a lab leak, or vice versa.
Read the 2020 papers on Covid origins. Scientists are not in the habit of putting out papers based on nothing.
the point of Silver’s piece is that the fact that natural origin was not any more likely than a lab leak was known to the Proximal Origin scientists before they wrote their Proximal Origins paper.
That was Silver's point, but he didn't establish it with the evidence he presented. He is ignoring some evidence and misunderstanding/misrepresenting what he provides. Don't appeal to his authority; his reasoning is bad.
Scientists are not in the habit of putting out papers based on nothing.
Unless their jobs and funding are at stake.
Or if they had giant Covids threatening to break their kneecaps.
Making shit up to create motives for people to lie is fun and easy and also useless as an argument.
Sales reps lie about their sales leads
Children who break things lie about not having touched them
Business folk fiddle the books to meet their stock option targets
Civil servants lie when they cause disasters or waste squillions
And we really don't need to do politicians
Humans very often lie when it's in their interests to do so, and when they're in a panic, or they think they can cover it up.
Scientists do not wear red capes, and red underpants on the outside. They're human, so I don't need to create motives. Public belief that Covid leaked from a lab would be catastrophic for the funding of virus research, and doupleplus catastrophic for anyone with connections to the WIV. The question is whether these particular scientists acted on their obvious motives.
And there's way more evidence that they did than there ever was for a zoonotic origin of Covid. Maybe insufficient, currently, for a conviction, but way more than none.
There's no evidence that the scientists lied. I looked through Nate's theory of the case. He's doing what you're doing: imagining some motives for lying and then calling it evidence. I call it a smear campaign.
Nice try, but they discussed their motive for lying, that discussing the lab-leak theory was bad for science, and in particular bad for science in China.
That's not a motive to lie, that's a motive not to put out a paper at all.
Surely they know that putting out a false paper would also be bad for science and their careers.
All diseases in human history have evolved naturally, so the preponderance of past experience suggests a natural origin, even if it can;t be pinpointed.
Yes, given the lack of persuasive empirical evidence either way dismissing one plausible explanation was groupthink, politics, bias, corruption, or some combination thereof.
Complete dismissal seemed premature. But focusing on the more likely scenario was not a bad idea, and that is where the research that Silver ignores was indeed initially pointing.
And of course there was not complete dismissal since the science is coming back around to consider both scenarios once again.
The issue is that they published a scientific paper which stated they did not believe ‘any laboratory scenario was plausible.’
That statement was not “premature.” It was a lie.
The private emails and messages show that they *all* thought a lab scenario was plausible, and some thought it *likely*.
And even had they thought a lab scenario was unlikely – which they didn’t! – there is a world of difference between saying “between two hypothesis, A and B, we presently believe A is more likely and should be the focus,” and saying “there is no version of hypothesis B that is plausible.” Those two statements are night and day. The first states an opinion that the available data overall favors one explanation, while the second attempts to cut off debate by essentially calling anyone who argues for B a crackpot.
The obvious intent was to stifle public debate and take the issue off the table. This is not hard to understand and I see no good reason why it should be partisan. It has nothing to do with what I think of Republicans, Trump, Fauci, or anyone else.
Concur – They actively sought to discredit the lab leak theory knowing it had high probability of being the likely source , at least a 50% chance of being the source. It would seem that those virologists had better information early and had something to hide.
As toranth has previously noted, the defenders still seek to discredit anyone who doesnt toe the party line.
The same individuals toeing the branch covidian party line are the same individuals pushing the party line of the russian hoax, pushing the innocence of the bidens with their bribery , pushing the no classified docs on hillary's server, pushing the innocence of no pay for play with Hillary, etc. Its like they intentionally hide in the woke bubble.
You lump this in with a bunch of other partisan left/right arguments which is kind of the opposite of what I was saying.
Meaning: If you hate Hillary Clinton it makes sense to be outraged over what was on her emails. If you don’t hate her you probably don’t care (I don’t care). Same with the other stuff you mention. The partisan breakdowns make sense because they involve scandals/allegations that could be personally damaging to democratic/republican leaders.
But why is lab leak vs natural origin a partisan issue? How is that left/right? Makes no sense, people.
Because the right is using this in their camapign to undermine science (and fact) generally.
Randal 9 mins ago
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"Because the right is using this in their campaign to undermine science (and fact) generally."
No - the left made an orchestrated effort to discredit the lab leak theory even though it was and remains the most plausible source of covid. The undermining of science became a article of faith with the left. Note the failure to admit the ineffectiveness of the mitigation protocols.
The mitigation protocols were effective. Rather obviously so.
More attempts by the right wing to undermine science.
OK, but disagreeing with elite consensus on a scientific issue is not the same as “undermining science.” In this case, it was the paper’s authors saying one thing in private and another in public that undermined science. It wasn’t “the right” doing that.
No. There's nothing wrong with scientists debating various theories in private in the process of coming to a public conclusion. It's ridiculous to expect scientists to know the right conclusion in advance. This sort of scientific debate is evidence in support of science. Science doesn't work when scientists just stubbornly stick to their priors. It's not "lying" for a scientist to come to a conclusion that wasn't their initial guess.
Which "scientific debate" are you talking about?
The one where the authors discuss how a lab leak and natural origin are both equally plausible, note the "shit show" that would ensue if anyone suggested to the Chinese it was a lab leak, and conclude that because it's impossible to definitely prove that it was a lab leak they should just say it's natural origin to avoid the controversy?
That scientific debate?
If you didn’t see it, it didn’t happen!
The only way people could have gone from opinion A to opinion B over time is to have been pretty quiet for a while and then lied.
This is not how you prove things, SA.
Like Sarcastr0 said, you just made that up.
But even if it were true, it doesn't constitute lying. Your main beef seems to be the idea that they decided to use a different standard of proof for the lab leak than for the natural origin. So what if they did? Even in science, not every hypothesis is equally valid. A hypothesis that butterflies evolved from wasps will require less data than one that they evolved from mushrooms.
So your complaint boils down to: they decided not to speculate about an outrageous scenario which, despite some circumstantial evidence, they didn't have data to back up scientifically.
That seems like the right thing for a scientist to do!
Dude. Just read the authors’ bleeping slack messages. This is, literally, what they say: ‘They’re both equally plausible but it’s a shit show if the Chinese feel like we’re attacking them and you can’t prove either way, so we should just say ‘natural origin.’’ I kid you not.
https://rogerpielkejr.subs-tack.com/p/the-truth-is-never-going-to-come
And none of the authors thought it was an outrageous scenario! Andersen directly calls it ‘likely’! Have you even read any of the FOIA docs?
Yes, I’ve read all the docs. I chose the word “outrageous” carefully. Compared to a standard natural mutation scenario, a lab leak is an outrageous claim. Being a scientist doesn’t change that.
The slack messages were from well before the paper was published, plenty of time for minds to change upon deeper analysis of the data. But anyway, they just say what I already said. Remember, “equally plausible” is the same thing as “equally implausible.” Let’s say you’re right and they decided to apply different standards of proof to the natural evolution hypothesis and the lab leak hypothesis, seeing as how the former is typical and the later is outrageous. Then… what? I’m guessing you still wouldn’t approve, but it ain’t lying.
" there is a world of difference between saying “between two hypothesis, A and B, we presently believe A is more likely and should be the focus,” and saying “there is no version of hypothesis B that is plausible.” Those two statements are night and day. "
That is absolutely correct as a matter of scientific/intellectual rigor, and additionally the first doesn't blow your credibility with the public.
No, it was not a lie. Or at least the internal discussions varying from the published paper is not a lie as anyone who does science would understand it.
Does the paper seem more certain than it seems was warranted? It does. But they key here is seems. First, papers are always as certain in tone as they can be, or else why publish them? Second, we don't really know what was going on with this bare aperture of behind the scenes info.
Be careful. Saying that you're not aware of a plausible scenario for X isn't the same as saying X is implausible. In fact they also say in the paper that new data could change the analysis, i.e. new data could point to a plausible lab leak scenario.
They said they did not believe any lab scenario was plausible. That's pretty definitive, though it does leave a tiny amount of wiggle room. Also, in context, the statement that new data could favor one hypothesis over another is saying that the data could favor one of two 'natural origin' explanations - that the virus adapted to human transmission before jumping to humans, or that it adapted after jumping to humans.
I don't think that's the best reading.
More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another. Obtaining related viral sequences from animal sources would be the most definitive way of revealing viral origins. For example, a future observation of an intermediate or fully formed polybasic cleavage site in a SARS-CoV-2-like virus from animals would lend even further support to the natural-selection hypotheses.
The "natural-selection hypothesis" covers both of the cases you mentioned. It can only be distinguished from the unnautral-selection hypothesis, i.e. a lab leak. Also, the phrase "even further support" indicates that that's the paper's preferred hypothesis, whereas the paper doesn't pick sides between your two different versions of the natural-selection hypothesis.
The statements "we don't believe any lab scenario is plausible" and "we don't know of any plausible lab scenario" are essentially the same. They're both statements about the current state of knowledge, not definitive conclusions. I think that's especially true in the context of the "more scientific data could swing the balance" conceit.
But they did think it was plausible. Likely even.
Not by the time they wrote the paper.
'And it was rejected with such absurd certainty that you knew politics had to be the reason. '
Nore to do with the complete lack of evidence and the fact that most people pushing the idea were doing so as part of elaborate conpiracsy theories.
Yet so many of the conspiracy theories have proven to be correct -
As Toranth noted - "There’s a huge host of things that the Branch Covidians and their friends in the Church of Masks believed contrary to evidence. And many of them, including posters here, still cling to their fetishes and debunked beliefs."
Absolutely no covid-related conspiracy theories have been proved correct.
Other than the one which is the subject of this post? Scientists conspired to lie to the public in a jointly authored academic article. Contemporaneous sources show that they knew they were lying. What more proof do you need?
"Nore to do with the complete lack of evidence"
If there were positive evidence to support the alternate theory that might work, but there isn't.
Except that being the usual way humans get infected with new strains of disease, ie , they evolved naturally.
Occam's razor (don't make it more complicated) only works if we limit 'complications' to physical aspects.
The truth is that 'Lab Leak' was a very 'complicated' problem. It would have been much 'simpler' for everyone involved (heh), it were proximal origin.
Huh? So a mistake or mishandling in a lab down the road is less complicated than unknown virus from a species that travelled 1000 miles and ended up as poorly handled and sanitized food in the wet market? Cling to that lie a little harder.
China IS corrupt enough for someone to steal research animals ans sell them for food.
Most of the people who call themselves journalists these days have no interest in getting correct information to the public.
And far too many suffer from extreme narcissism, which leaves them unable to be skeptical of anything that affirms their notions.
In Late March 2020, NPR ran a week long expose of why it was impossible (or near impossible ) for covid to be a lab leak . Never acknowledging that lab leaks are somewhat common.
Wow! I remember mulling over that very article. And watching as the (preprint?) text was quietly revised in a few curious ways in the first hours/days.
From one of the links:
Like they say, a scientist is easier to buy than a politician.
Of course, journalists are pretty easy to buy too.
They never explain why exactly we should favor batburger over lableak. Its just vague ‘thats ridiculous’ or ‘thats racist’
batburger
Is that what Batman has for dinner? With a topping of Bat sauce, and a side of Bat fries?
Same bat time, same bat channel.
"Alfred, get the bathtub ready."
"Sir, what's a 'htub'?
Literally it's because of the lack of evidence of a lab leak, making the lab leak unlikely.
There is no law of science that makes batburger the default theory in the absence of evidence. As it is. What we have, admittedly some of it circumstantial, points to lab leak. And its the most parsimonious explanation we have after all these years. It fits the most puzzle pieces together. The only major argument for batburger is its an alternative for those who can’t bring themselves to accept lableak for whatever reason.
There is no law of science
Zounds.
Sarcastr0 isolates 6 words from a 17 word sentence, and then reacts to it as though it were the whole sentence. Zounds!
My objection is to those 6 words. Finding no 'law of science' on point is...not really evidence of much.
Do you disagree?
Do you even understand how language works? You can't just take a sentence fragment like that, and pretend it's the whole thing the guy said. Address what he actually said!
No, finding no law of science on point is simply noting that the conclusion wasn't predetermined, had to be arrived at by evidence and reasoning.
And lacking relevant evidence, you couldn't just eliminate one of the hypothesis' out of hand.
There is no laws of science you follow in the practice of science. It's like Martian Law.
I don't need to quote the whole sentence to note that's dumb as hell.
"There is no laws of science you follow in the practice of science."
I think that is some non-standard usage. Laws of thermodynamics, Newton's laws of motion, Kepler's laws of planetary motion, etc, etc.
"There is no law of science (thermodynamics) that allows perpetual motion machines" is perfectly normal usage.
If Amos means that neither gravity nor entropy suggest the zoonotic theory the default theory in the absence of evidence, that's also pretty silly.
But I don't think that's what he meant. I think he was not understanding the scientific process.
I'm willing to accept the lableak, if evidence is presented. Till then, it seems proper to assume that, like almost every disease that has ever troubled humanity, it evolved and propogated naturally.
I remember this being discussed early on in these forums, and I said it was more likely it was a lab leak, based on all the evidence out there.
Certain people started going off how that's a "conspiracy theory"
Based on all the evidence out there now though, I'd "buy" at 80%, and "sell" at closer to 98%
The COVID origins, mask effectiveness, IFR/CFR, CDC death reporting, vaccine effectiveness and side effects...
There's a huge host of things that the Branch Covidians and their friends in the Church of Masks believed contrary to evidence. And many of them, including posters here, still cling to their fetishes and debunked beliefs.
You won't find any of those that called disagreement "conspiracy theories" and "racism" admitting they were wrong, much less apologizing, though. Their Faith could never take that.
Yes, because there's a difference between acting in good faith on imperfect and developing information and just spinning the most outrageous lies you can think of - covid is fake, its a bioweapon, vaccines are poison, masks don't work - and getting mad about it won't change that, and lying and distorting these messages won't do it either.
Nige - you are one of those that Toranth is pointing out -
As Toranth stated - "There’s a huge host of things that the Branch Covidians and their friends in the Church of Masks believed contrary to evidence. And many of them, including posters here, still cling to their fetishes and debunked beliefs."
Yes, I know, it's just as stupid and wrong the second time.
As toranth has pointed out - several individuals, nige included, who live in the branch covidian bubble cling to ideas and beliefs that have been discredited.
Only Toranth's strawmen have been discredited.
No one thought masks worked 100% of the time.
No one thought vaccines worked 100% of the time.
No one thought it was possible to perfectly account for "covid deaths" given partial information and comorbidities.
You've debunked a bunch of strawmen. Congratulations!
I'll add on point 4 to Volohk's bits.
4. Pressure from above.
Reading all this, it's pretty clear that "the higher ups" had a large hand in what was being said.
Who, Trump?
I'm skeptical of Silver's second assertion. It has been my personal experience that leaders and residents of mainland China do not tolerate sloppiness: if a Chineese lab leak caused the deaths of many Chineese citizens, I would expect a disappearance of the lab supervisors.
I'm certainly not saying that a lab leak wasn't the cause of the pandemic, I simply continue to say that the leak might not have been from a lab in China.
https://thebulletin.org/2019/11/what-happened-after-an-explosion-at-a-russian-disease-research-lab-called-vector/
"And who knows, in 20 years’ time, we might even find out what happened at VECTOR from an HBO series"
"if a Chineese lab leak caused the deaths of many Chineese citizens, I would expect a disappearance of the lab supervisors."
You mean like this one?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12205705/Chinese-military-expert-filed-patent-Covid-vaccine-died-mysterious-circumstances.html
"It has been my personal experience that leaders and residents of mainland China do not tolerate sloppiness:"
You're... kidding, right? China is absolutely famous for shoddy consumer goods, contaminated foods, and so forth.
And corruption....
But they draw the line at lying about sloppiness that makes the CCP look bad on the world stage.
Yeah, after the fact they might go so far as to disappear the people responsible, hide what happened, and pay surrogates in other countries to vehemently deny the obvious.
Are you aware of what happened when Chinese biolabs leaked SARS-1 - the far deadlier, less infectious cousin of COVID-19 - into the public... twice?
It's likely you are not aware of what they did, because the leaders and residents of mainland China were so tolerant of the leaks that it was almost completely ignored.
Except by the grieving families, of course.
Anyone who thinks lab leaks can't happen because scientists or their bosses are paragons of discipline who run labs clean enough to lick the floors clearly doesn't have actual experience in a real lab.
Journalists aren’t open minded enough these days to consider whether they should be skeptical of anything. If it fits their narrative, they accept it without question. If it doesn’t, they attack.
The whole “saying it was a lab leak is racist” thing is a complete scientific, journalistic, and political failure. People who propagated it should be shamed. Seen any consequences? Seen more than a couple of “how did that happen” articles?
What's funny is that it is obviously quite racist to suggest that this strange virus came from strange people in a strange land because they like to eat strange things. It is equally obviously not racist to question whether that strange virus might have a connection to the virology lab a few miles down the street.
Trump pissing into Lake A created the natural preference to draw water from Lake B.
Your derangement made it hard to see anything, no matter how obvious, through the red mist of hatred.
Scientists and journalists are supposed to resist that preference, though. If they can’t they’re really not worth anything.
Not only admitting the existence of Trump Derangement Syndrome, but trying to defend it. Simply stunning.
Even if COVID was natural, we should put lots of focused attention into lab safety. There have been hundreds of incidents in one country. Alison Young, author of this story https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/30/lab-safety-transparency-report/86577070/, has a recent book out as well.
How many others have been covered up, in countries without a FOIA?
It's like it's difficult to contain something too small to see that can make copies of itself.
And then, if it turns out to be yet another lab accident, we still need to pay careful attention to minimizing natural spillovers. Those happen so often that a Bayesian will always suspect one as a starting point.
The history of lab leaks is what makes the branding of the lab leak conspiracy theory so sinister. As Noted above, NPR ran a week long expose on why the lab leak was impossible or damn near impossible. Unsurprisingly NPR, get rated as one of the more honest news sites, in spite of their frequent factless based exposes ,
... and so should judges!
The problem is that the state of scientific education in the country is so poor that most people don't have the tools to critically appraise scientific publications.
That scientific deficiency is quite evident from commentators who regularly worship and defend the woke version of science. Even after the dubious nature to the woke version has been pointed out to them
When top public health officials and scientists demonstrate that they do not understand the meaning of "plausible" it does make me wonder what other errors they might make.
Eugene - this falls squarely under the heading of "things you're not expert in, and so don't weigh in on."
The "misinformation" going on here are the authors combing through an extensive record, cherry-picking some statements made among experts debating hypotheses, and casting it all as a great scheme to "mislead" the public. Just spend some time following the links you provided. Take note of the rhetorical tricks being used, the strange ellipses, the inferences drawn from equivocal statements.
When you do the work, what becomes clear is that the people considering this issue just didn't know whether a lab leak was the best explanation for what they were seeing. They didn't have the evidence one way or the other. They weighed the impact coming out with that as a possibility might have, on the public discourse and continuing research. And they made a judgment, based on the weight of the evidence and their experience, as experts in this field. They made a best guess.
Not a big deal. We still don't know that they were wrong.
Now this is all being trotted out and (as the commenters here are making clear) treated as a smoking gun that COVID-19 definitely was caused by a lab-leak, and moreover that it must have been suppressed because Fauci had something to do with gain-of-function research in Wuhan. None of this is clear in the evidence, of course - you dig through the links, you find nothing more than insinuation.
Bottom line, Eugene - journalists should be skeptical of scientists, but bloggers should also be skeptical of journalists working in a clickbait-driven media environment. Sharing this was irresponsible.
Well Silver says he doesn't think the Lab Leak theory is more than 80% likely, that's hardly "definitely".
Me? I'm at about 90%, short of definitely, but edging into Beyond a Reasonable Doubt territory.
Simon is too politically warped to be able to understand that when a pandemic happens with ground zero within a couple of blocks of a virology lab that studies the virus at the heart of the pandemic that it’s at least possible that the lab is a possible source. Much more fulfilling to his image of his own virtue to scream racist!! at anyone who points it out.
And he doesn’t care that four prominent scientists damaged their own reputation and that of science generally by publishing a paper that they themselves believed to be a lie and allowing science to be politicized. Simon thinks that politicized science is the best science, as long as to is done with Rightthink. It’s important to Simon that rational objectivity never contradict his preconceptions.
But the real hoot here is Simon chiding EV for speaking on something he believes EV doesn’t understand. Simon does that every time he speaks.
'that they themselves believed to be a lie'
See, this is the lie. They didn't do this. It didn't happen. Question the bloody narrative, you twit.
'Simon thinks that politicized science'
Amazing demand for dubious purity in some people while utterly accepting the poltical hysteria of others at face value.
To quote from above, "We know this because of a series of leaked and FOIAed emails and Slack messages that have been reported on by Public, Racket News, The Intercept and The Nation along with other small, independent media outlets."
A quote from one of those messages: "“I think the main thing still in my mind is that the lab escape version of this is so friggin' likely to have happened because they were already doing this type of work and the molecular data is fully consistent with that scenario.”"
Written by one of the authors of the paper saying it WASN'T likely!
Here's a detailed timeline with quotes from the communications.
You're literally denying this with the smoking gun in front of your face, smoke wafting up into your nose.
What do you expect? 🙂 = You’re literally denying this with the smoking gun in front of your face, smoke wafting up into your nose.
Because there is no evidence that a lab leak occurred, that's why they were obliged to conclude it *isn't* likely. This just shows that they gave the theory fair consideration before reaching their conclusions.
If I flip a coin into a dark well, there's no evidence it landed "heads"; Does that mean you're obliged to conclude that isn't likely? Absence of evidence is just that: Absence of evidence!
The FOIA documents demonstrate that they actually thought the theory quite likely, and then reached the conclusion they did for reasons other than evidence.
The level of willful blindness here is really confusing.
Is it just, ‘Trump and the Republicans said lab leak, we can’t let them win’?
I hate Trump too. Who cares? Who cares what he said?
Saying publicly something is implausible while stating privately you think it is plausible is lying, right? Lying is bad, right? Lying about important stuff is super bad, right?
Just forget Trump. Forget the Republicans. Forget all of it. This isn’t complicated and it shouldn’t be partisan.
The thing is - none of what you're saying here tracks to the evidence.
What you are saying here is a gloss on what others are saying, which is itself a leading extrapolation of the evidence that's been made available. It's classic misinformation.
Ooooh, misinformation.
Definition of misinformation: Things I don't want to be true that I can't refute.
Because obviously if you could convincingly refute it you would and we'd move on.
Silver's take on this is highly disappointing, as well. Either he's dumber than I thought, or he's farming for outrage.
It couldn't possibly be that he simply has a different opinion than you, right? I mean, that would be crazy.
1. He didn't weigh in on it, he posted a link to someone else weighing in on it.
2. Prof V. never said he didn't weigh in on thinks that he's not an expert in, but he's said that him not being an expert in something will weigh against him commenting on the topic.
3. You're not an expert in it either, but you had no problem weighing in on it.
Other than that, great comment.
It might have been maliciously released, possibly to stop something even scarier from being developed.
It's so outrageous and unfair when people baselessly associate the lab-leak theory with conspiracy theories, isn't it?
You see, Eugene - this is how misinformation spreads. You've linked to Silver, whose own account is derivative of sources that hand-wave past contrary evidence and cherry-pick items that support their narrative, which purport to be based on a data dump few of us have directly seen.
And now your commenters are building off your imprimatur on a gloss of a bad-faith take to fuel still further conspiracy-mongering that has no relation whatsoever to the underlying correspondence all of this is purportedly based on.
Actually, what this demonstrates is that "misinformation" today has nothing to do with truth or falsity, or levels of evidence. It's purely defined in terms of departure from the party line.
Silver provides evidence, but this doesn't matter. Evidence contrary to the party line can't even be acknowledged to be evidence.
this demonstrates is that “misinformation” today has nothing to do with truth or falsity, or levels of evidence. It’s purely defined in terms of departure from the party line.
Brett, who often comes up with highly confident and yet utterly off the wall takes, finds more evidence that he's totally right about it all despite what everyone else tells him.
The OP is about the evidence, revealed by FOIA requests, and you're pretending it doesn't exist.
I've talked about the evidence and explained why it's bad a bunch on this thread.
Your selective reading strikes again! Or maybe your telepathy.
You know the FBI did conclude that the Lab Leak theory was most likely. I'm hardly one to cite the FBI as infallible, but we all know the Administration would be happier if the lab leak was debunked because Fauci's fingerprints are all over the labs research grants, so I consider it an admission against interest. I hardly think the FBI couldn't debunk the "bad" evidence ("bad" or unreliable?) you are referring to.
To me the clincher is the grant application submitted by a researcher at the lab in 2017 to engineer a coronavirus with a furrin cleavage site. Well then when one pops up a year or two later in the vicinity of the lab then it's being intentionally obtuse to ignore the "coincidence".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64806903
You fucking hate the FBI. What a hypocrite.
The FBI is the outlier in their conclusion. The consensus disagrees with them. You don't mention that for some reason.
And now you think the virus was *designed*, not just leaked? Based on a grant application you totally understand the implications of.
You're a hypocrite, then you lie, and then you go in for a conspiracy theory. Banger of a comment.
Your attempt to redefine words to claim that other people didn't mean the things they said is nothing but telepathy - and time-travel on top of it!
People you've never met wrote emails you never heard of until years later, but you now know what they were actually thinking? And therefore, you know that they were not 'lying' when they publicly said something that they privately said they didn't believe?
You can repeat this absurdity 'a bunch', but it's still absurd and idiotic lying that everyone can see through.
I’m not the one claiming slam dunk they lie lie lied. I said I have questions.
You are the one claiming that the evidence isn't actually evidence, and that people privately stating one thing while publicly stating the opposite are not lying, and that anyone pointing that out is making things up.
That's not "having questions", that is flat out lying about the people posting here.
"despite what everyone else tells him."
I think you might be overstating the level of support for your position.
'Silver provides evidence, but this doesn’t matter.'
His evidence directly contradicts his assertions. You're seeing what you want to see. Because that's your party line.
Gun researcher Kates, after case after case of anti-gunners actually citing as evidence in their favor sources that proved them wrong, posited something he called "gun-aversive dyslexia":
"We do not suggest that these gun-aversive dyslexic errors have any great importance in and of themselves. Their importance lies in what they, and innumerable other errors we document, collectively say about the effect of having advocacy deemed (even hailed as) a norm, while scholarship receives only lip service. Error becomes endemic when the corrective effects of dissent and criticism are excluded. Lest our comments seem strident and extreme, recall that this is peer-reviewed literature. Each of the articles cited in the preceding paragraph were peer-reviewed, as were almost all of the other articles we cite. How did errors of easily establisbable fact--that a source is cited for something opposite to what it says--slip past reviewers? The short answer is that intellectual sloppiness prevails when political motivations reign and sagecraft displaces scholarship."
You're demonstrating that it's a general phenomenon, not limited to guns.
Neato projection.
To elaborate, one could use that way-too-long quote to describe Brett's takes and how he :
Given the close proximity to a lab researching that very virus, lab leak was always the default explanation.
Fauci illegally funding gain of function research into Covid at that lab
[Sarcatr0 is] pretending [The OP's evidence] doesn’t exist.
Trying to disprove only one hypothesis while letting the alternative go unchallenged,
“which purport to be based on a data dump few of us have directly seen.”
You haven’t seen it because you don’t want to look.
Here is the embedded link 10 megabyte house report the emails and slack, AND transcribed interviews of the participants to provide their explanations of context.
https://oversight.house.gov/release/wenstrup-releases-alarming-new-report-on-proximal-origin-authors-nih-suppression-of-the-covid-19-lab-leak-hypothesis/
You just want the information suppressed and not talked about because you don’t want people to make up their own minds.
Go ahead and cite all the contrary evidence if you don’t think the “commenters” are being fair, you’re part of the discussion too.
But don’t just wail because people are discussing it at all.
It's quite spectacularly, epically sloppy and blatantly misleading. How many 'smoking guns' about the lab leak does this make? Until the next one comes along.
Yeah. I followed the links and looked at Emily Kopp’s list of what she claims are, “conflicting public and private statements,” but none of them are clearly conflicting. Her first example has Andersen saying publicly that Fauci was not involved in the publication of a paper, and saying privately that the decision to conduct the review that led to the paper was prompted in part by Fauci. You have to really stretch to find a contradiction between those two assertions.
How much skepticism is warranted when conservative law professors who operate a bigotry-filled blog for a bigot-heavy target audience try to claim they are not bigots?
Pep[le like Kirkland will eventually give bigotry a good name, make bigotry a good thing.
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense. Don’t take your ‘science’ from the media. Journalists must eschew epistemological trespass. Medicine is not a science falsifiable (after Popper) but an art and technology depending on verification for validity. Beware the Black Swan.
Nah, get it from a statistican cherrypicking slack messages from scientists to make them look bad.
Medicine not falsifiable?
Most middle aged men are taking drugs proven to lengthen lives vs. a placebo.
That is the theory that can be falsified.
File this under...And now they tell me = The COVID origins story has also been a journalistic fiasco, with the lab leak having been dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" and as misinformation even though many prominent scientists believed it to be plausible all along….
Nate adding a ton of certainty to those already convinced. Way to go.
Prof. Volokh too, though.
Criticize the people exposing the scandal and bad journalism, not those that actually politicized the science and those covered it poorly. That’s certainly something most honest and open-minded people would do.
Other have done so, but Nate's post doesn't prove his thesis at all.
The FOIA'd docs are not damming; backchannel dicussions not showing up in a final paper is normal in science and out.
My big issue is the "The problems fall into three buckets" which ignores a fuckton of papers that bring actual science to explain why the zoonotic theory was looked at as the more likely.
It's a shambles of a piece. You are in the group that is already convinced there's a conspiracy, so you are big mad at anyone who takes issue with it.
And, as you do, will get very personal with your issues rather than dealing in the arguments.
I think I agree with you.
But here is what I believe: For the scientists, the shame comes from their false certainty. For the media, the shame comes from not questioning the message and demeaning anyone who did have the courage to question the message.
OK, now we're talking! <3 for this post.
The journalism question is the one I'm thinking about here - how do you, a non-expert, properly interrogate the statements of scientists?
I do the best you can do don't let them rest on their authority, especially on opinion pieces. You can at least check for fallacious arguments, even if you can't exactly get into their methods and results.
Bothsidsing science is a bad idea from someone who can't weigh the validity of various positions themselves. And I don't think journalism does that.
But I will agree that there is some unearned authority given to scientists in the media. Even as science reporting is itself super bad at the science.
"[...] how do you, a non-expert, properly interrogate the statements of scientists?"
Start by ignoring their appeals to authority, if offered. The truth is the truth, and it is easy enough to shake it out.
Agreed!
I would go further and say don't go to scientists for policy questions. It's a temptation, but that's not their job. Even if sometimes they think it is.
This was my main issue with Fauci, BTW.
Correct me if I am wrong. Robert Redfield (virologist) flatly stated in March 2020 that a lab leak was most likely culprit. The man was a renowned virologist. The fault lies with the journos who let their biases influence what they were reporting to the public.
The way to 'properly' interrogate the statements of scientists is to start by being skeptical, and asking questions.
What you think should have happened seems exactly the opposite of being skeptical of sources that this thread is about!
The way to ‘properly’ interrogate the statements of scientists is to start by being skeptical, and asking questions.
This vastly overestimates 1) how good scientists are at communicating, and 2) how easy to understand in situ science is as a baseline.
My job is partially to evaluate scientific claims. It is very hard, especially in medicine and physics, and a lot of the time involves empaneling other experts in the specific discipline. Not really going to work on the timescale of journalism.
I assume scientists are shitty communicators; they generally are. What I mistakenly assumed was we have a press corps that is a) reasonably intelligent wrt basic physical sciences, b) skeptical, and c) curious enough to ask questions. Now they tell us...
Reasonable intelligence isn't always sufficient. More often than not expertise is what's required.
That is the challenge.
Well, the journos lack both. And it is pathetic (as well as a challenge).
If your expectation is that journalists be scientific experts, you are setting yourself up for disapointment.
Saying journalists lack intelligence is a broad generalization that is just empty-headed conservative hostility. Do better.
I get personal with my arguments, he says, immediately after claiming I am convinced there is a conspiracy. A view that I don’t have and have never stated. But that’s one of your go to arguments, simply accuse your opponent of being a nut and voila!! Discussion over.
You’re taking bad behavior on the left and trying to turn it into the fault of the right. When it comes to horrible behavior on the left you can’t simply say “yeah, they shouldn’t have done that”. Instead you have to reflexively defend. Their internal communication demonstrating the behavior can’t even make you do it.
And, just like with the climate stuff, you’re cheering on the politicization of science. Just win, baby. Who cares about the cost?
You confuse: "Your argument is bad and conspiratorial" with, say, "Simon is too politically warped to be able to understand that."
One is addressing the argument, the other addresses the person. In a comentariat full of commenters doing fallacies, your penchant for leading with ad-hominem stands out.
Real advice here: when you write that stuff, just cut that out before you post and keep the meat of your argument. If you end up finding all of your argument is about the tendencies of the poster you are replying to, consider not posting.
You’re taking bad behavior on the left and trying to turn it into the fault of the right
You appear to have confused scientists generally with 'the left.'
A word of advice. Or two. Stop reading minds and saying people are thinking things that they aren’t, as with me and conspiracies.
And Simon had the audacity to lecture EV because EV reported facts. Linked and proven facts. He deserves personal criticism for that, not to mention he’s got a horribly nasty attitude in everything he posts. You criticize people like cbd and Frank and bumble personally. Simon and nige are the equivalent of those guys in this board. So, a bit of advice, don’t criticize people for doing what you yourself do.
And you still haven’t addressed the point of this post, except to say that you don’t believe the internal communication between the scientists is real somehow. And you don’t address the laughably poor performance of the media in this at all. Screaming racist at people who aren’t racist is American journalism in the 2020s.
EV reported facts. Linked and proven facts.
No, EV linked to an opinion based on misintepreting some facts and ignoring others.
I criticize people personally *based on their comments* sometimes I note a pattern I criticize.
You criticize the person off the break as a way to criticize their comment's arguments. That is the issue.
you still haven’t addressed the point of this post
9:44am.
"No, EV linked to an opinion based on misintepreting some facts and ignoring others."
No, EV linked to facts, and inferences based on those facts that you don't think are supported, but you haven't bothered to make an argument as to why they're not supported.
"I criticize people personally *based on their comments* sometimes I note a pattern I criticize.
You criticize the person off the break as a way to criticize their comment’s arguments. That is the issue."
Shorter Sarcastro: "It's OK when I do it."
When he posts things like that, I can never be sure if he is really that lacking in self-awareness, or if he just lies as naturally as he breathes.
Hey Bevis, I am a man of the Right. But I want to make certain I am addressing the arguments directly. It is easy to miss someone's real argument...and any points you score against a straw man argument are a waste of everyone's time.
I find it useful to read through the arguments of people I may be in disagreement with and find the parts of their arguments where we agree. Then we can narrow down the area of disagreement.
I am a man of neither side and agree with you.
In this case, the original comment was criticizing the guy who dug out the info and the guy who reported it. What did they do wrong? How do you respond to “this information shouldn’t have been made known to the public because it bolsters an argument that I don’t agree with”?
I read what he said but there’s nothing there besides denial. How do you argue with denial.
"The FOIA’d docs are not damming; backchannel dicussions not showing up in a final paper is normal in science and out."
Oh, gee, I guess that settles it then. It's not like it matters what's being discussed in the backchannel discussions, right?
So even if either reason for the cause is valid, one thing is being overlooked. You have an incident in an isolated area of a highly restrictive Country, yet the bug rapidly spread globally. I have never bought that. It didn't spread, it was deployed intentionally.
The scientists lied about their certainty. The press accepted this lie, embellished it, and ran with it. The press slimed anyone who spoke out in favor of the lab leak hypothesis.
The scientists publicly asserted that option A was the most likely cause even though they privately believed that option B was likely (and some even believed it was the most likely option). They lied about their certainty. Their lie was used to vilify and denounce other people (including other scientists) who spoke out about the possibility of option B.
In short, non-scientific factors outweighed scientific truth. This is disgraceful. This is Lysenko-ism. The press accepted this lie and went further. The public is justified in not believing science as reported by journalists....at least in main stream media.
That is what Silver claims, but his evidence doesn’t show that very well.
As I noted above, the already convinced crowd doesn’t give a rats ass about the evidence’s quality; y’all just want to yell about the Media Conspiracy.
As I said, way to go Nate and Prof. Volokh.
Hey Sarcastr0…I edited my comment while you were typing your reply. Sorry about that.
Your comment is fair. We need to look at the quality of the evidence. Research more; shout less.
::thumbs up::
"As I noted above, the already convinced crowd doesn’t give a rats ass about the evidence’s quality"
I notice you haven't said what's wrong with the evidence.
And to be clear, you don't count yourself among the "already convinced crowd?" You certainly haven't made any comments indicating that you give a rats ass about the evidence's quality.
Scientists usually have an initial impression. Sometimes it’s wrong. That’s totally normal.
What’s weird is to dig up a scientist's old emails and then call them a liar if their initial impression didn’t end up being supported by the data.
The claim that the lab-leak was implausible was never supported by the data. The emails discuss why they wanted to exclude the lab-leak, because they thought it was bad for science.
They never said it was implausible. They said they didn't know of any plausible scenarios, but new data could change that.
This recent article is a good overview of the issues for lay readers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/magazine/covid-start.html
Nice link.
It's hopeless. Read the flood of right-wing comments in response to the NYT article. Points the author debunked conclusively get repeated in the comments as proof of allegations made without any factual basis at all.
Make it a point to notice, plausibility is a terrible test of narrative accuracy. For plausibility, deliberate lies often excel true narratives.
Liars tend to strip from their stories every detail which does not directly support the desired narrative conclusion. True narratives, by contrast, tend to be discursive, to wander around, and feature distracting irrelevancies put there by real-life happenstance—all of which make the true story seem less plausible as proof of whatever point the narrator wants to make convincing. For that reason, Occam's famous analytical insight applies far better to evaluate theoretical explanations than it does to test accounts of events which purportedly actually happened.
Nate Silver sees as nefarious messages saying “we’ve been trying to disprove the lab leak hypothesis”. But trying to disprove a hypothesis is standard science-speak for testing a hypothesis. E.g. every time you test a new drug, you must disprove the “null hypothesis” that it’s no better than the old one, and that any improvements you see with the new drug are due to chance. So saying you’re trying to disprove a hypothesis does not imply you’re cutting corners doing it; you’re literally just testing whether the hypothesis could possibly explain the data.
Yeah, I did pick up on that. Trying to disprove a hypothesis IS normal. Trying to disprove only one hypothesis while letting the alternative go unchallenged, OTOH? Not so normal.
There was plenty of discussion about disproving the natural-origin hypothesis, even if the exact word "disprove" wasn't used.
You might be interested in this article:
https://www.editorialboard.com/for-the-house-republicans-the-scientific-method-itself-is-now-evidence-of-conspiracy/
Seems like the more nefarious thing is that they believed one thing and said something different. I.e. they lied.
There is no evidence of that.
To clarify what Nate Silver wrote:
“Granted, there is a little bit of ass-covering — “More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another,””
If you read the paper, that statement does not apply to “a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.” The paper says “Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.” It goes on to explain: “Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here.” (emphasis added)
Those OTHER theories include "the possibility of an inadvertent laboratory release of SARS-CoV-2" resulting from "research involving passage of bat SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses in cell culture and/or animal models." And it is that theory they go on to say is not "plausible," but "More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another."
But much stronger language, sometimes conveying nearly absolute certainty, is applied to the supposedly separate category of “a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.”
And? Do you have a reason to think that it's a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus as opposed to an inadvertent laboratory release of a virus resulting from passage of bat coronaviruses in cell culture and/or animal models?
Speaking as a public health scientist and former professor, a FOURTH reason for publishing contrary to their beliefs is that if you buck the establishment position - in this case that of the NIAID and its director, you risk your research funding. I experienced pushback from two funders - one from a staff member at CDC who was not happy when I published findings questioning the effectiveness of the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act regulations, another from a state health department director who did not like the fact that we were intending on publishing findings on shortfalls in influenza preparedness in the state in question - and also were preparing to present findings that the CDC survey instrument to assess such preparedness was unreliable due to problems with the psychometrics of the questions and bore little reality to the findings found when doing on-site assessments.
The pressure to conform in the public health field, particularly in academia, is intense. It is not just funders, but also editors and peers doing promotion and tenure reviews. I had a paper submitted, reviewed, and in print in a mere six weeks with a significant general health policy journal that was rejected without review by the editors of the three top general public health journals. It happened to be an examination of the role of federal funds on local health department activity using survey data from over 1700 local health departments - a study that found that the funding had NO impact on local activity, but rather the presence of local leadership prioritizing the program was the most important predictor of action. I don't think it was a coincidence that all three editors had staked a public position that problems with the public health system were due to funding shortfalls and that more funding was needed, a position that my findings called into question, but are consistent with other studies of public health as well as other programs (think of Aaron Wildavsky and Jeffrey Pressman's book mplementation: How Great Expectations in Washington are Dashed in Oakland; or, Why it’s Amazing that Federal Programs Work at All. 1973. University of California Press. ).
Were they threatening to pull the grant? I'm not in the public health field, but that requires more than spicey publications.
Maybe there was an option on the grant?
Yes, science is rarely altruistic, it's very sad. It's driven by the same capitalist machine as everything else in this country (including politics). I'd've thought this blog would consider that a feature, not a bug.
It's one thing to recognize that papers get published for various and sundry reasons. This paper was pushed into existence by political forces. It's very carefully worded, certainly one-sided but not quite misleading. Once published, it was definitely oversold by the media and the Trump administration.
But that's very different from the (unfounded) accusations that Nate and Eugene are making, that the scientists lied in the paper itself. There's no evidence of that.
Not enough attention here to the ostensible subject of the OP, which is not properly critique of scientific occurrences, but instead critique of what methods good media bring to coverage of those occurrences. I suggest especially careful attention to the word, "plausible," which got emphasis in several comments above. What should an editor at a responsible news medium do when presented with an unusually consequential story supported by a claim of, "plausible," evidence?
Should journalistic integrity credit, "plausible," as a supportive descriptor, or recoil from it as a red flag signaling lack of factual evidence? Commenters above seem to prefer the first interpretation. I insist that most competent editors rely on the second, and ought to do that. And that is especially applicable in any context urging journalistic caution.
Any important story presented for publication on the basis of, "plausible," evidence deserves only an immediate hold, with an admonition to the reporter to go back and get factual evidence. For any story presented as anything but idle gossip, "plausibility" ought not be counted among proofs of accuracy, but instead numbered among the goads to skepticism.
Yes, this is the correct take. The “conclusions” are worded quite weaselly for a scientific paper. That should’ve been a clue to journalists that the paper was attempting to smuggle some public policy through in the name of science.
The problem isn’t that anyone lied. They didn’t. The problem is that people — even journalists — assume everything in a scientific paper is scientific. But scientific papers often have a lot of unscientific “dicta,” like the personal opinions of the authors. Journalists need to get better at distinguishing the science from the editorializing.
Let’s not forget the comment by Obama administration member Ben Rhodes about how easy it is to manipulate reporters: “The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing,”
Add to that their partisan leanings.