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Michigan Court of Appeals Upholds Ban on Guns at University of Michigan
From Wade v. Univ. of Michigan, decided yesterday by the Michigan Court of Appeals (Judges Mark Cavanagh and Deborah Servitto); the ban covered all university property, which I take it includes dorms and open spaces:
In Bruen, the Court stated that it was "settled" that arms carrying could be prohibited consistent with the Second Amendment in locations that are "sensitive places." The Court explained that, although the historical record showed relatively few 18th and 19th century "sensitive places," such as legislative assemblies, polling places, and courthouses, there was no dispute regarding the lawfulness of prohibitions on carrying firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings. The Court's statements indicate that, even though 18th and 19th century "sensitive places" were limited to legislative assemblies, polling places, and courthouses, laws prohibiting firearms in schools and other government buildings are nonetheless consistent with the Second Amendment. Thus, if the University is a school or government building, then Article X does not violate the Second Amendment….
Samuel Johnson's dictionary from 1773 defines "school," in part, as: "A house of discipline and instruction[,]" and "[a] place of literary education; an university." It defines "university" as "[a] school, where all the arts and faculties are taught and studied." Thus, considering either time period, the term "school" included universities.
Notably, the reference to "schools" being sensitive places was first made by Justice Scalia in Heller. In discussing the "longstanding" tradition of laws forbidding firearms in sensitive places such as "schools and government buildings," Justice Scalia did not define the term "school," nor did he cite or rely on any authority. Given that the term "school" is not found in the Second Amendment, but was first used by Justice Scalia, it is not clear that either 1791 or 1868 are the correct time periods to determine the meaning of that term as used in Heller. Nonetheless, the plain meaning of "school" when Justice Scalia used the term in 2008 similarly includes universities….
Other courts have concluded that universities are schools, and thus, "sensitive places." See DiGiacinto v Rector & Visitors of George Mason Univ, 281 Va 127, 136; 704 SE2d 365 (2011) ("The fact that [George Mason University (GMU)] is a school and that its buildings are owned by the government indicates that GMU is a 'sensitive place.' "). See also United States v Power, unpublished memorandum opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, issued January 9, 2023 (Case No. 20-po-331-GLS), 2023 WL 131050, and United States v Robertson, unpublished memorandum opinion of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, issued January 9, 2023 (Case No. 22-po-867-GLS), 2023 WL 131051, *12 ("[T]he Court determines that a regulation centered on a 'college campus' falls under 'schools' and within the sensitive places doctrine."). In Power and Robertson, the court upheld the National Institute of Health (NIH)'s regulation banning firearms on its campus because the NIH is a sensitive place. Thus, the challenged regulation did not violate the Second Amendment. The court explained that Bruen never said only "elementary schools" or "middle schools," and the terms "schools and government buildings are presented as broadly as possible, allowing the reader to consider all possible subtypes that fall within those two examples." Finally, in Antonyuk v Hochul, ___ F Supp 3d ___, ___ (ND NY, 2022) (No. 1:22-CV-0986 (GTS/CFH)), 2022 WL 5239895, *17, the court upheld a New York restriction on concealed carry at colleges and universities….
Relatedly, plaintiff suggests that while "some specific parts" of the University's campus may be considered "sensitive areas," the entire campus is not a "sensitive area." Plaintiff's suggestion is untenable because it would require that certain "areas" of the University be partitioned off from other areas of the University, and other "sensitive places" like courthouses would likewise have to be partitioned. More importantly, plaintiff provides no support for partitioning "sensitive areas" and no such support can be found in Heller or Bruen, which used the term "schools" and "government buildings" broadly….
We acknowledge that the parties, as well as the amici, present numerous policy arguments both in support of and against Article X. In brief, the University argues that, in addition to public safety concerns, the presence of firearms works against its important goals of protecting First Amendment freedoms and the free flow of information. The Michigan Attorney General argues that: courts should not interfere with state and local decisions; university students believe learning is hampered if firearms are permitted on campus; and the University would be an outlier among colleges and universities if its ordinance were struck down. Brady argues that Article X protects speech and the free exchange of ideas and furthers the University's core educational goals. Giffords similarly argue that guns on campuses chill speech, impede learning, and pose unique safety risks. Further, there is no evidence that the presence of guns would decrease mass shootings.
Plaintiff, however, argues that guns increase public safety. He further argues that the concerns regarding violence, suicide, and alcohol abuse may relate to students, but not to him, and the free flow of information is not a concern at the places of his proposed conduct. GOA similarly argues that Article X is far too broad, potentially affecting more than 88,000 people and effectively operating as a city-wide ban, which is impermissible.
Clearly, the efficacy of gun bans as a public safety measure is a matter of debate. However, because the University is a school, and thus a sensitive place, it is up to the policy-maker—the University in this case—to determine how to address that public safety concern….
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Perhaps Mr. Wade should now sue under Michigan's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, claiming that his beloved popgun is an object of religious veneration, which his sincerely held beliefs require him to keep on his person at all times.
After all, the gun is America's Moloch. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2012/12/15/our-moloch/
Hardly. Gun Violence Archive claims about 3,000 children and teens died of gun violence in 2019. The CDC reports 629,000 abortions in 2019. That's two orders of magnitude difference.
Abortion is America's Moloch.
No doubt because the embryos and fetuses were unarmed, eh?
Heh. Were they armed, the outcomes likely would be different
My comment was intended to lampoon those whose solution to every perceived problem is more guns.
I suspect there are commenters on these threads who, if forced to choose between giving up their firearms and giving up their children, would not hesitate to choose the latter.
Not only can every problem be solved by more guns…the racism in America was mostly directed at restricting guns according to Thomas. So in voting and education the racism wasn’t that big a deal but with respect to gun control it was pervasive. 😉
"...rcism in America was mostly directed at restricting guns according to Thomas."
If Bunkum-Fried says it then you can be sure it's not true.
I suspect there are commenters on these threads who, if forced to choose between giving up their firearms and giving up their children, would not hesitate to choose the latter.
If I'm armed and someone is trying to make me choose between letting them take my firearms or my nieces and nephews... I'm going to shoot that person.
You didn't actually think this through, did you?
Holy Crazy Hyperbole, Batman!!!!
There is absolutely nobody that would make that choice. For you to “suspect” that says something about your understanding of people, and what it says isn’t good.
The government made German Jews give up their guns. And then it made them give up their children. Having given up their guns, there wasn't much they could do.
If I refuse to give up my guns, there is no way you can force me to give up my children
Free men own guns, Slaves don't(didn't?)
Almost all had two arms. Two legs too.
It is beyond debate that abortion kills more underage persons than people shooting underage persons.
Michael Ejercito : “It is beyond debate that abortion kills more underage persons…..”
Though so “underage” they’re not actually persons. But why quibble over a technicality, eh?
Technicality? Since you want to quibble about it:
Can you define 'person' objectively and precisely, since your argument relies on it?
"Can you define ‘person’ objectively and precisely, since your argument relies on it?"
What is wrong with the standard legal definition? For example: "an individual, company, or other entity which has legal rights and is subject to obligations."
One of those rights is the right not to be killed. Thus the move to assign personhood to fetuses.
When applying laws, then the applicable legal definition certainly seems good enough.
But there didn't seem to be a law cited here, so I was curious as to how grb was using the word - with an objective meaning, or just whatever was required to disagree Michael Ejercito.
"Thus the move to assign personhood to fetuses."
Along with gender. "Assignment" is so out of hand.
Maybe we should de-assign personhood to you. There is after all no sign of brain function.
Really? Take a look at how they define "children". The Gun Control minded usually consider "children" to be birth to 19 years and sometimes 23 years old.
That way they can include gang bangers and "Drive By" shooting victims as "children" to pump up the numbers. Cut it off at 16, lose the usual weekend gang shootings and the numbers are totally different with "accidents" the leading cause.
"Justice Scalia did not define the term "school," nor did he cite or rely on any authority. Given that the term "school" is not found in the Second Amendment, but was first used by Justice Scalia, it is not clear that either 1791 or 1868 are the correct time periods to determine the meaning of that term as used in Heller. "
Without opining on whether schools are sensitive areas which justifies ( or doesnt justify) a ban on guns on school grounds. The correct time period for determining the application of 2A is circa 1791 since that was the time period that 2A was adopted and ratified. 14A incorporated the BoR that applied against the Federal government such that it now applied against the states. 14A did not change the meaning of 2A or any of the other BoR's
It’s so strange the drafters of the 2A wanted an amendment to protect an individual right in only DC and federal territories…such a head scratcher. 😉
For much of the nation's history, that was the prevailing view of the entire Bill of Rights. See, Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833).
Correct, but the 2A was drafted as an individual right unlike the 1A and other Amendments which clearly restricted only the federal government prior to incorporation. So the 2A even refers to the country in general when it states “free state”…but the states were free to infringe the 2A. Unless “free state” refers to the several states…such a head scratcher. 😉
Uh, the rights to free speech, free press, free exercise of religion, freedom from unreasonable searches/seizures and several other rights in the first eight amendments are all individual rights.
But those rights aren't central to manhood in the same manner that packing a popgun is.
Lol, the 1A states “Congress shall make no law”. The 2A refers to the entire country in its text.
Not the prevailing view - barn v baltimore was that the BoR was incorporated against the federal government in all states, all federal territories, and DC (though DC did not exist at time of passage in congress (though DC did exist prior to complete ratification by the states).
Baron V Baltimore held that the bill of rights was not applicable against the state government, but only applied against actions of the federal government.
Sam Bank-fried has been corrected a numerous times - far too many to keep making the same erroneous statement.
baron - not barn
But the 2A was drafted as an individual right unlike the other BoR amendments that restricted Constitutionally mandated federal agents that operated in states like federal judges and US Attorneys and US Marshalls and active duty US Army soldiers…and in the case of the 1A Congress is specifically restricted. So the text of the 2A refers to everyone in the country…and yet incorporation was necessary. Such a head scratcher. ????
He's a parody account, and this is part of the parody.
Only because you’re too stupid to understand that it protected an individual right everywhere in the U.S. DC, states, federal territories.
So why did the states infringe it shortly after its ratification?? Such a head scratcher. 😉
They did not - the first gun control laws were post Civil War, designed to keep former slaves unarmed.
Then, the first concealed carry law, NYC's Sullivan Act, was designed to keep the 'approved' gangs from getting killed by the new 'swarthy skinned' gangs being imported from the Mediterranean.
States started restricting concealed weapons long before the Civil War.
But not open carry. It had nothing to do with the weapons and instead had to do with the idea of cowardly ambushing people.
Sam commentators on both the left and right corrected you so many times - Are you that dense or does it take a special kind of stupid to keep repeating the same mistake time after time?
Strange the test case was brought in DC…and then McDonald was necessary??? It’s almost like I’m right and everyone here is wrong! In a country of 74 million Trump voters through can that many idiots really exist in one comments section?? 😉
No, it protected the right to bear arms FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT everywhere.
And yet another court completely misappropriates Scalia's "presumptively lawful" list of regulations in Heller.
Heller was not about carry on school property, or any other place outside the home. Scalia specifically clarified that his list was PRESUMED to be lawful, because Heller was not considering carry in those other places. ALL regulations are presumed lawful, until they are appropriately analyzed and found to NOT be.
Scalia left the determination for the legality of carry outside the home for later cases, such as Bruen.
It is not only wrong, it is outright dishonest to claim that Heller's list of presumptively lawful restrictions were actually Constitutional, since Heller did NOT analyze them, at all.
So what function does the word "sensitive" have in that part of the opinion? Aren't all statutory, regulatory and property-owner restrictions in other places also presumed valid until a court reviews them and decides they are invalid?
California used to allow open carry in the State Capitol…until scary black dudes started open carrying and then governor Reagan promptly peed his panties and outlawed open carry. Reagan was a pussy just like you. 😉
You have to be about 900 years old to be talking about GOVERNOR Reagan.
whose typing for you? Your ancient fingers must be too dusty and crumbly to use a keyboard
Eeek!! A black man with a gun!! We all gonna die!!!
Governor Ronald Reagan
Sure thing Methuselah
OJ did alot of damage with a knife (how is that fucker still alive??)
If Ron Goldman (On Nicole Brown) had just had a simple S&W 37 Airweight 38 Special, that whole night would have gone very badly for "The Juice"
The Mulford act was quite bipartisan and the vote was over 2/3rds majority in each house. What's more, Reagan was up for re-election soon. As a general rule, no politician with presidential aspirations up for re-election is going to buck such a prevailing sentiment.
You can find videos of Reagan on YouTube peeing his panties about scary black guys open carrying.
Your brain was Fried on drugs when you hallucinated that, Bunkum.
You've missed my entire point. The subject ruling we are discussing today builds a false foundation on the "presumptively lawful" regulations cited by Scalia in Heller, then builds a straw house on that foundation claiming that all regulations regarding sensitive places are Constitutional.
The point I am making is that Heller said no such thing, rendering both the false foundation AND the straw house in this ruling completely invalid.
Heller acknowledged the status quo at that time, which was that those regulations had been presumed to be lawful, quite simply because no case challenging them had yet made it to SCOTUS.
Bruen changed all that. Bruen WAS the case that finally brought those FORMERLY "presumptively lawful" regulations under scrutiny, and Bruen said, Hey, in many cases those regulations are NOT lawful after all.
Where do you think Bruen said that? It was about general carry in public, not about "sensitive places".
Like your vagina??
Ha Ha ! you said "Your Vagina"!!!
I like vaginas on women but on men they are gross. Like how Lindsay Graham reacts to lady vaginas is how I react to man vaginas…eeeeew!
Bruen reset the rules for evaluating all gun control laws. Everybody knows this, it's why the gun-hating states are scrambling to re-write all their now-illegal ordinances.
ALL gun control laws are under new scrutiny to ensure they are legal according to the new Bruen standard.
If you don't understand and admit that, you're either being completely disingenuous or not even half-way paying attention.
Scalia Doctrine—cases wrongly decided like Roe and Heller should receive pushback from states and municipalities to chip away at the ruling with the goal of overturning the decision.
Since you won't answer the question, I will.
But that is not so very different than what the court said in Heller:
The main thing in Bruen was rejecting "any means-end test such as strict or intermediate scrutiny" as part of the analysis, not declaring that regulations were presumptively unlawful.
The key point is that "presumptively" just means "until specifically analyzed". He was just saying that they weren't overturning ALL gun laws with Heller.
That meaning of "presumptively" holds true for all statutes and regulations, and in practice even exigent commands. Written law is enforceable until a court analyzes it and orders otherwise. It's would have been vacuous to single out some laws as being presumptively valid if that's all it meant.
Bruen said that presumptively lawful was no longer the standard when it said the standard is now the text as informed by tradition and history, and any gun restrictions must be shown to be closely analogous to regulations that were widespread in the early days of the republic.
TPK: "...Bruen said, Hey, in many cases those regulations are NOT lawful after all."
Michael P "Where do you think Bruen said that? It was about general carry in public, not about “sensitive places”"
SCOTUS: "...expanding the category of “sensitive places” simply to all places of public congregation that are not isolated from law enforcement defines the category of “sensitive places” far too broadly." Etc.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
The real question is whether it was unlawful to carry a gun into a school on June 21, 1788, they day the Constitution was officially adopted. I suppose you could argue for March 4, 1789, the day the US Government began officially operating. No other considerations are relevant.
edit: Serves me right for trying to talk on the phone and type at the same time.
And, yes, guns were brought to school in 1788/89. There were ordinances in some places at that time that required it, as well as going to church. As they were brought to school in 1888/89, and even in 1968/69 when I graduated from HS. It was a big suburban HS, but we still had a shooting club. BYOG. Where we live now in rural MT, it probably continued into the 21st Century.
Remember being a pledge in a fraternity the next year. We had a couple Good Old Boys, from LA, who brought their shotguns to college with them. They would be up on the sun[orch or the roof, two stories up, and would yell “Pull”. One of us pledges would then toss a rock under the eves of the house next door, flushing a pigeon or two. Eventually, someone would complain, and the police would show up, about firearms being discharged within the city limits. No one, of course, hanging out in the living room knew or had heard anything. At least once, the police would have know which room one of them lived in, by walking around the house, and seeing a string of dead pigeons hanging out the window. We actually got in more trouble shooting pop bottle rockets from the roof at cars stopped at the stop light right beyond the house. The two who brought their shotguns to school, did love their bird hunting - a couple decades ago, they bought themselves 1,000 acres in SE CO just for that.
On October 2, 1789, President Washington sent copies of the 12 amendments adopted by Congress to the states. By December 15, 1791, three-fourths of the states had ratified 10 of these, now known as the “Bill of Rights.”
Current guy - the correct date would be october 1789, which was the date passed by congress and sent to the states for ratification. Though being off by one year, you are still looking at the prevailing law that existed during that time frame, and its doubtful there was a shift in local gun laws during that short time period
FUN FACT, I graduated from UofM, and when I went there, a friend of mine's parents got me the memoirs of Arthur Miller, who was an alumn. Miller described the big open fields of Ann Arbor back then, which was hard to imagine by my time. He also talked about his roommate being an avid hunter and the guns they had in their dorm.
Times change, I suppose, but I'm thinking this one doesn't make it past SCOTUS
Agreed. Back in the day I did my 1st two years at the University of Pittsburgh, Titusville Campus, which was right next to the Allegheny National Forest. I think half the guys, and not a few women, kept their rifles in their dorm rooms.
I don't have a problem with saying "schools" are sensitive places, as long as they are well defined, an urban campus with buildings scattered over several blocks with other private buildings intermixed wouldn't qualify, it would have to be restricted building by building.
But dorms are another matter, there is a right to keep and bear arms, for self defense especially in ones home. And a dorm is home, for a significant amount of time for many college students.
A college campus is also not a 'sensitive' place when compared to public schools, given the age of the attendees are almost universally adults in the former.
Some people seem to think that those adults deserve fewer rights than adults everywhere else.
I think that’s the key point to be made here: College students are adults, often residents of the campus, and there’s a history of allowing them to possess firearms at least on rural or suburban campuses. Those points distinguish them from schools for minor children, which were likely what the Court had in mind when writing “schools”.
When he brought up the dictionary definition of school, the weeezle was weazling hard.
"The dictionary defines automobile as something that moves about under its own mechanical power. Therefore I declare a car the Giant Ass Saw Thing."
I think that it is more the liberal faculty, and maybe grad students, than the undergraduates at colleges and universities. The faculty at the University of Montana in Missoula sued, when state law made explicit that concealed carry permits were valid on campus. They tried to make some argument in court about why they were special, and being special snowflakes, having the possibility of armed students in their midst might detract from their academic freedom or something idiotic like that. Worried that they might be gunned down, or some such, if the criticized some armed student. They lost. It’s Montana. And now, you don’t even need a concealed carry permit - though they are nice for purchasing guns - the background check for CCW permits replaces the federally mandated background everyone else has to pass in order to purchase a gun.
That's not how we do 2A analysis any more. We don't ask entirely rational questions about what properly constitutes a "school" or why they might be "sensitive places." We have to look at historical analogues from 1791. Could a "school," in 1791, refer to an institution of higher learning for adults? Could a "school," in 1791, refer to a multi-building campus, as well as the spaces in between? That's all that matters, according to Scalia/Thomas.
It doesn't much matter if the lower courts are going to act in bad faith, as they've been doing.
Well, in the late sixties, as a member of the Rifle & Pistol club, I was wandering around the campus of Virginia Tech armed every weekend. Friday nights we loaded up a few hundred rounds of centerfire cartridges in the dorms, and walked down to the Western Auto to pick up our weekly order of two thousand rounds of .22LR and headed out to the range.
We kept our firearms in the dorm rooms. The only restriction was we had to let the campus and town fire departments know which rooms had ammunition or gunpowder.
And, oh by the way, there were no campus shootings when the students might shoot back.
UT-Austin…oopsie. 😉
Yes, and it probably would have been worse if an armed student hadn’t put the tower under fire soon after he started. The shooter had to keep his head down, so likely couldn’t have shot as many people.
Sure, because once most states liberalized concealed carry mass shootings stopped. Oh wait, mass shootings got much worse with more concealed carry….it’s almost like mass shooters want to die and so more guns don’t deter people that want to die?!? Duuuuuuh.
It's not that mass shootings are deterred by concealed carry. It's that they have the potential to be mitigated by it.
In any case, I don't carry to protect myself primary against extremely rare mass shootings, but against your garden variety thug violence, perpetrated by Biden voters.
It is hard to see how a college dormitory is any more or less sensitive than an apartment building, a condo, or a hotel.
The owner of an apartment building or hotel can prohibit the carry of firearms within that property, and condo associations can restrict carry in the common areas of their condos.
Your condo remark is only true in some States.
Many have rules that HOAs cannot infringe upon protected Constitutional rights.
Except generally apartments and condos are private property. This is a public university.
How does that relate to sensitivity?
A private landlord is not bound by a sensitivity standard. So while it's true that a private landlord can ban guns for any reason or no reason, a public entity does not have that freedom.
Plaintiff argues among other things that the University's size and scope make it much more like an independent municipality than a school. Fair enough. In that case the University could be renamed University of Dodge City. This famed frontier cow-town formed a municipal government in 1878 and prohibited the carrying of dangerous weapons in public places (gun ownership per se was not outlawed but was confined to the home). Visitors to the town were required to leave their weapons with local law enforcement or a hotel and could reclaim them upon departure (a sort of hat-check arrangement). It's almost certainly true that everyone in town possessed a firearm, but the ordinance was enacted anyway for the protection of everyone and, importantly, for the protection of the town's reputation as a safe place to live, work, and own property.
Yes, it wasn't uncommon at all in the 1870's for states and localities to infringe on people's civil rights with impunity. Jim crow laws, anti-gun laws, corruption, land grabs, vigilante justice were rife, especially across the west.
We don't allow that anymore.
Not to mention the irregular enforcement - the sheriff of the day, his friends, the family of the local judge, 'deputies', and anyone else that was moderately popular or trusted were allowed to carry.
So "history and tradition" only works in one direction?
If you could carry a gun in 1870 you can carry one today, but if you couldn't, it was only because they were infringing civil rights, so you can still carry one today.
Is that right?
Is "history and tradition" the only test proposed in Bruen? Or, perhaps, were that other considerations to be taken into account that could have answered this question for you?
Scalia was never a faithful originalist. Indeed, he even described himself as a "faint-hearted originalist."
But I can't understand why universities would be "sensitive" areas compared to other locations. Sure, large numbers of people gather there. Ideas are exchanged there. Debates sometimes occur there (although less debates occur than should due to the scourge of liberal intolerance, mindless political correctness, and anti-intellectual wokeness). That does not in any meaningful sense really distinguish universities from other locations within society.
The answer of why universities are sensitive places, according to this particularly confused court, seems to be as follows: "Because Scalia said so." I think Scalia himself would vehemently reject the "logic" of the Constitution means whatever Scalia says it means. Scalia may have been a "faint-hearted originalist" but he wasn't totally lacking in principle. One thing that Scalia disliked was the idea that the Constitution means whatever judges happen to say it means without any reference to some external objective evidence or methodology.
Liberals seem to think they can pull a fast one by quoting Scalia in a superficial manner. I don't think it will work. To quote Scalia while rejecting his methodology is to quote him out of context.
Perhaps SOME conservatives are the dumb Scalia-worshipping idiots that liberals presume ALL of them to be. But I don't think the majority of them are.
I expect anyway that Scalia had meant K-12, where there are children, not universities full of adults.
The reason that colleges and universities are sensitive places is that they are filled with sensitive snowflake faculty and administrators, and their fear of guns would impair their academic freedom. Seriously, that was essentially the argument made by the U of MT, when state law made explicit that concealed carry permits applied to them too. They lost. But tried something similar after the Governor terminated masking for state facilities.
"...nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms...."
Heller actually had nothing to do with the carrying of firearms outside the home, so yes, it would therefore be a mistake to "read into" Heller a sacrosanct list of 2nd Amendment "exceptions", to be thoroughly (and expansively) exploited by cynical, unscrupulous judges at the first opportunity.
Massachusetts colonial gun control
The attitude of those gun control laws changed significantly in the 1770's due to the british attempts to confiscate guns. Its one of the facts that is ignored by the gun control advocates when claiming the right to keep and bear arms is limited to when serving in the militia.
In 1774 and 1775 the British Regulars under orders from Governor Thomas Gage actively tried to confiscate the colonists' firearms, particularly their gunpowder. He sent the Army to break up a town meeting in Salem, Massachusetts, and 3,000 armed men showed up causing the "Redcoats" to retreat.
Exactly, that is what the drafters of the 2A were concerned with—the state militias being disarmed by the federal government…unless you believe the 2A was drafted to only protect citizens in DC and federal territories.
What a remarkably silly argument. The Bill of Rights originally only restricted the federal government, but it applied throughout the United States. Just as the First Amendment only protected freedom of speech or exercise of religion from encroachments by the federal government, so too did the 2d amendment protect those freedoms as to the federal government.
You might as well say the drafters of the Bill of Rights were only concerned about free speech or freedom of religion in DC and the territories. Again, a remarkably silly argument.
So why was the 2A drafted as an individual right unlike the 1A?? And the other BoR amendments are restricting federal officials mandated by the Constitution. Plus the 2A refers to everybody in the entire country!! How can it protect an individual right and then only apply to Congress???
Your comment is borderline incoherent.
The Bill of Rights restricts the federal government. Nothing there restricts the state governments. For that, you have to look to the state constitutions. Other than the First (which is formulated "Congress shall make no law . . .") the remainder of the BoR simply states that there are rights. Still, the understanding was that the BoR secures these rights only against the federal government.
This is in line with the idea that rights are God-given, and governments are instituted to secure those rights. The federal constitution is an institution meant to preserve rights against the federal government. State constitutions do the same for state governments.
That was the understanding up to the Civil War Amendments. With the passage of the 14th Amendment, some rights were considered to apply to the states as a matter of federal constitutional law. Which rights is a big discussion that has been going on since the Slaughterhouse cases.
A good illustration of this is Barron v. Baltimore (1833). The plaintiff there claimed that construction by the City of Baltimore damaged his wharf, and was a taking requiring compensation under the Fifth Amendment. That provides, "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Not, no mention of Congress or the federal government.
But SCOTUS held that the BoR did not apply to the states, and hence there was no Fifth Amendment violation.
The opinion is here: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/32/243/#tab-opinion-1937851
Bored lawyer - no doubt the prevailing view is the the BoR only applied against actions of the federal government, Thus the vast majority of constitutional scholars agree that Baron v Baltimore was decided correctly. However, note Thomas's dissent in McDonald where he noted that there was a minority view that the BoR was arguably incorporated against the states at ratification. The theory being that the constitution is a contract between the Federal government and the states and the people. All parties are bound by the terms of the contract unless specifically stated otherwise which would imply that the BoR applied against the states at ratification. the Baron v Baltimore argument is that the Constitution was a contract on how the Federal Government would operate which is the prevailing view.
Correct.
My point is, the fact that the Second Amendment only applies to the federal government cannot be used as proof that it is limited to state militias. Because the prevailing view was that ALL of the BoR's only applied to the federal government as a matter of federal Constitutional law. And the other rights clearly were and are individual rights.
The other amendments of the BoR are restricting federal officials created in the body of the Constitution…it’s pretty obvious which federal officials are restricted like the 3A restricts the federal Army and the others restrict the federal judiciary and US Attorneys and US Marshals.
Federal judges and US Marshals and US Attorneys were created in the body of the Constitution—the amendments of the BoR restrict those federal officials that are at work inside the respective states. You are arguing the 2A only restricted Congress at ratification…except in the text of the 2A it states the RKBA shall not be infringed for everyone (militia) in the country (free state)!! And yet the states felt free to infringe the RKBA which means the 2A was drafted to protect the RKBA of citizens in DC and federal territories because it was an individual right at inception unlike the other amendments of the BoR.
Now, if one reads “militia” to refer to the state militias and “free state” to refer to the states that make up the United States of America then the 2A would clearly restrict the federal government from disarming the state militias.
“…which means the 2A was drafted to protect the RKBA of citizens in DC and federal territories…”
This bizarre and repeatedly debunked claim means that you are a brainless twat.
The "RKBA" is a natural individual right, but the Federal government in 1791 was not the guardian of that right against the States. This isn't hard to understand for anyone without your brain damage.
*If* we’re going to go all historical and stuff, then generally colleges and universities in Ye Olden Tymes had a huge population of minors (under 21), over whom the university authorities wielded the authority of a parent (in loco parentis). They told the students when they had to go to sleep, when they had to go to chapel, what their daily schedules would be, what outside entertainments (if any) they could see, and what activities in general they could or could not engage in. So they could have forbidden students from hunting or even having guns, though they could also permit students to hunt for recreation or to supplement the food in whatever they called the cafeteria.
As for non-students, this in loco parentis analysis wouldn’t apply, but I suppose they could keep people deemed undesirable off the premises. As for the area near a campus, a state’s police power IIRC tended to involve restricting the activities of people near campus (taverns, playhouses, circuses, etc.) so that they wouldn’t corrupt the students. I’m not sure guns would be among the things they feared would corrupt the students, however.
Also, IIRC, if a boy (and since we're talking olden tymes, it would be a boy) showed promise, he might go to college at an age we associate with high school. So your average college dean or pres would have had to superintend a bunch of rowdy adolescents and keep them out of trouble, rather than preside over students at the cusp of adulthood who are presumably more mature (I almost got through that last part without laughing).
I’m most concerned about groomers and Muslims and Democrats. Could you imagine sending your son off to college and they come back a progressive Muslim girl with a sugar daddy???
Odd that Michigan law says nothing about carrying in "sensitive places". There's no need to look past Michigan law to determine that U of M is wrong.
MCL 750.234d regulates prohibitions on legal carry, and schools aren't on the list.
MCL 28.425o regulates prohibitions on the legal concealed carry by persons with a Concealed Pistol License. This list does include schools, but exempts parents/legal guardians who are dropping off their children. That doesn't sound like universities are included.
And, of course, Michigan does define school specifically in regard to "weapon free school zones" in MCL 750.237a:
(b) "School" means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
(c) "School property" means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
Also, Judge Sawyer is correct in his dissent that MCL 123.1102 preempts the university from making such regulation.
Looking forward to this decision being reversed. Note, I have a CPL, and I am a currently enrolled student at the U of M, but I rarely carry even without such prohibition, as is properly my choice.
So upon ratification the individual RKBA only applied to citizens in DC and federal territories??
Actually, the BoR was held by lower courts to be incorporated against the states, as was intended, until the Supreme court put a stop to that as part of a series of rulings that rank right up there with Dred Scot. (The Court also put a stop to lower courts overturning anti-miscegenation laws, which came roaring back in the South.
Partial incorporation was a work around the Court resorted to in order to partially reverse that outrage without having to come out and admit that the Reconstruction era Court had deliberately spiked the 14th amendment. That it let the Court only incorporate those rights it really liked was a bonus.
DRED SCOTT!!! Yeah, a Supreme Court decision is what made America bad for black people. 😉
I mean, when it almost entirely restricts the 14th amendment from being applied to the states(until SCOTUS later invented substantive due process to incorporate various rights against the states instead of admitting they royally fucked up in the first place) then yes, it manifestly made things worse.
Addendum - Note that Jim Crow laws, widespread lynching, etc... etc... didn't come about till some time after the Slaughterhouse ruling.
Dred Scott caused the Civil War, and called human beings, chattel.
That’s Plessy…Dred Scott was just about how in our white supremacy society with slavery protected by the Constitution that black people were second class people—it was inconsequential other than as an example of what powerful Americans attempted to do to circumvent the inevitable death and destruction of the Civil War.
Lol.
"Dred Scott caused the Civil War..."
That's absurd.
Ah, the "So... [followed by utter pulled-from-butt nonsense]" formulation.
Bellmore was talking about the Slaughterhouse cases, which Plessy is the entirely foreseeable result of. Prior to Slaughterhouse, the going assumption was that everything in the 14th amendment and the BoR applied entirely to the states. Afterwards it was strictly curtailed and at the legal level, all the ugly behaviors started to snowball.