The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
"Busting the Durable Myth that US Self-Defense Law Uniquely Fails to Protect Human Life"
T. Markus Funk, who has written extensively on self-defense law, has an article with this title here (in The Champion, the magazine of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers); here's the abstract:
The cases of Jordan Neely, Ahmaud Arbery, Kyle Rittenhouse, and George Alan Kelly brought the long-simmering national debate about self-defense to a full boil. Member of the legal commentariat quickly offered their takes on all aspects of these flashpoint cases, further sparking spirited discussion.
The disrupting note in the constant drumbeat of lawyers, legislators, academics, reporters, and other legal observers, however, is the claim that US self-defense law is exceptionally severe by international standards and comparatively underappreciative of the value of human life and the need to prevent violence.
The problem with this narrative is that it fails to recognize that US self-defense law is, in fact, very much within the international mainstream and, in many respects, is significantly more protective of attackers and more carefully calibrated to reduce overall societal violence than the self-defense laws of many other nations. As this article argues, in terms of impact, such erroneous claims seriously distract from the much-needed debate over US self-defense law's deeper public policy and moral grounding.
Much worth reading.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Sure, as long as you ignore the castle doctrine, stand your ground laws, and gun control. But apart from that, sure.
Couldn't be bothered to actually read the article, could you?
Seems like; It disposed of his points rather early on. In bold, yet!
It's only 4 pages, excluding the extensive footnotes.
It didn't pass the laugh test. So no.
So you concede defeat.
It says very much about you.
"didn't read the article" must have stung.
The weak of mind are often afraid of facts that threaten their faith.
Also, yes, makes total sense to demand total submission to criminals who break into your house.
That wasn't the question posed though, was it?
Once removed, that is the question posed. Laws set expectations for the behavior of the lawful. If the law will not find you faultless in case you, an innocent, are confronted with violence, the law implies that the lawful should submit to that violence.
I’d like to see you try to explain why I should not be able to shoot anyone breaking into my house, or anyone attacking me with deadly intent in public.
One of the most basic human rights is survival, and that includes self-defense. Why do you think it is immoral for the victim to want to stay alive, and moral for the attacker to want to kill someone?
You folks prattle on about the right to jobs, free food, free shelter, free everything, yet wave away that all those things can only be “free” by taking them from someone else. I guess life itself is one of those: if the only way for a scumbag to survive is to kill someone who works for a living, that’s fine and dandy; free trumps earned.
You nailed it. Their* impulse to protect the life of the violent criminal is indeed of a piece with their drive to force the hardworking to support the unproductive & shiftless. They reject the principle that “One must be responsible for one’s own errors.” (This is a quote from Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged.) Decoupling one’s actions from negative consequences is one of the primary tenets (the primary tenet?) of their fucked-up philosophy.
* Martinned and those of his ilk (i.e., leftists)
I’d like to see you try to explain why I should not be able to shoot anyone breaking into my house
Because some of us value human life. All human life. And again, that was the question posed in the OP.
You value the attacker's human life more than you value his victim's human life. You cannot defend that, though you use lots of weasel words to ignore it and shift the question to "all" human life.
He took the mask off.
Remember this the next time who comments on gun control laws.
Your life is only as valuable as you value it yourself. By forcibly entering someone else's home or by assaulting them you have demonstrated you place very little value on your own life or safety. I will respond accordingly. Anyone who breaks into a home or attacks someone and is shot and killed only used another human being as an instrument in their own suicide. I shed no tears.
Exactly. Threatening or attacking me explicitly shows the attacker doesn't value my life; why should I value his more than mine? Why should some plush bureaucrat sitting on his plush behind have any say in the matter?
Same applies whether the threat is conveyed with a real loaded gun, a real empty gun, a water pistol, a finger in a pocket, or a note passed to a bank teller. That threat puts people in fear of their life, by intention, and deserves to be met accordingly.
Why is it muggers don't attack the young and fit?
I think this is a misreading of the situation. An intruder does value his life, but he has demonstrated he values his own wants to be worth more than your life, and in doing so, he has forfeited his right to be free of others acting against him violently.
Sure, the intruder's life may be valuable, even after he breaks into my home, but why should I give one whit of concern of the values that someone attacking me holds dear, when I value my life more than that of the intruder's?
So you would advise your underage teen daughter to just lie back and enjoy it if some creep from school (student or teacher) refuses to take no for an answer?
No, but he probably would encourage his son to lie back and enjoy it. Male on male grooming is what the left loves the most.
Ah, valuing all human life as the Catholic Church teaches? Except even the Church accepts self defense when it doesn't accept either capital punishment or abortion.
ALL/i> human life?
Really?
Because you've gone in pretty deeply on the pro-abortion arguments here before.
Martinned is pro-abortion?
Clearly you don't respect the victim's lives, or their property, or literally the only place in the world they should have absolute and full authority to protect themselves and their families however they see fit.
Typical soft European.
If you valued non-criminal human life, then you would support self defense.
Your position is only logically coherent if you value criminal "human life" more than the lives of us non-criminals
The article actually addresses almost all of the points you bring up. Notably regarding the castle doctrine and stand your ground the article claims that similar doctrines are prevalent across the world: “In fact, the same is true for legally, politically, and culturally diverse countries ranging from Argentina, Botswana, Canada, France, and Nigeria to Ghana, Indonesia, Japan, Spain, and Sweden.”
One thing that is noted is that the doctrine regarding when deadly self defense is permissible is distinct from what weaponry can be used to effect such a defense.
Good luck shooting (or stabbing) someone in your house in, say, France and then expecting to get off by simply pointing to the fact that it's your house.
Stabbing a mere (innocent) visitor is of course not permitted in France or any other jurisdiction, regardless of where it takes place. Setting aside mistake cases, that would be Article 221 murder.
That said, under France's Criminal Code (specifically, Articles 122-5 - 122-7), force up to deadly force can be used to protect "mere property," provided the force is necessary. Further, and as relevant in the context of this conversation, French law, like the laws in most jurisdictions around the world, does not impose any duty to retreat. And as to self-defense in a home, Article 122-6 in fact creates a presumption of legitimate self-defense any break-in of an inhabited dwelling occurring at night.
In short, French self-defense law is in most important respects same as the self-defense laws in the US (and, therefore, is far more restrictive than the self-defense laws of, say, Germany or England). Of course, the means of defensive force are different - but, as pointed out in the article, that is a different conversation.
The article does not discuss French law but it does discuss both German and English law. And in both those jurisdictions, you would get off even more easily on a claim of self-defense than under US law.
The article (excluding footnotes) is shorter than the comment threads that you've read to get here. Read the damn thing.
All of the topics you mention (namely, stand your ground, castle doctrine, and gun control) are discussed in the article.
Explain how you disagree with the article's conclusions.
Erections have Consequences,
if "45" was still POTUS (notice I didn't say "If "45" won in 2020)
Daniel Penny would probably already have a PMOF instead of facing
a manslaughter rap in NYC.
Frank
“underappreciative of the value of human life ”
Why is human life special that it needs to be appreciated? The classic answer given by the Western religions, is that human beings have agency and free will. Which means that if a human being abuses those, he may forfeit that special consideration.
This is the deeper meaning of “Whoever sheds the blood of man, through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:6)
Interesting point about an attacker's "forfeiture" of their right to life. I have in the past argued that a person, though conduct, can either forfeit or waive his or her right to life/non-interference - and that there is an important distinction between the two. For more on this distinction, check out the paper (starting on page 35) at https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3807298
Here in the US we consider the right to life to be "unalienable" which means one cannot waive their right to life.
Of course the right to life necessitates a corollary right to not have a life, i.e. death.
Unalienable means non-transferable. Just because a right can't be alienated, doesn't mean it can't be forfeited under certain conditions.
Hence the Founding Fathers didn't have a problem with capital punishment, because the people guilty of the crimes justifying the punishment did something very serious to deserve it.
They are not self-transferrable, was my point.
According to Merriam Webster:
unalienable
adjective
un·alien·able ˌən-ˈāl-yə-nə-bəl -ˈā-lē-ə-
: impossible to take away or give up : INALIENABLE
Now of course they can be taken away in very limited circumstances, under due process of law.
Why is human life special that it needs to be appreciated?
A certain strain of vegans aside, I don't think you need to turn to the Bible to answer that.
Mmmm, when you really go through the analysis of why human life should be treated specially, you'll eventually end up with two possible answers: "Because God says so" and "Shut up and stop bothering me."
Eliminating God from the equation will at best get you to "Because it is the best way we can come up with to orient society." That works from a practical perspective, but leaves the more philosophically-inclined among us a bit cold.
Mmmm, when you really go through the analysis of why human life should be treated specially, you’ll eventually end up with two possible answers: “Because God says so” and “Shut up and stop bothering me.”
The idea that ethics must be externally motivated is a common fallacy of some religious folks. It is incorrect. And I say that as someone of faith, whose faith informs their morality not dictates it.
I can see the utilitarian reason to value human life in the abstract, but not the lives of worthless black criminals over law abiding whites' property and lives, which is really what the left means.
You and Artie really deserve each other.
This is an excellent article, but it largely, except for a short passage at the end, ignores the fact that the U.S. is unique in being very high in both income and violence, particularly gun violence, thanks to our unique history as a "bottom up" country, where there has been no aristocratic, land-owning elite telling us what to do for the past millennium or two, so that we never really got the forelock-tugging thing down the way other countries have. I am a gun law opposing liberal because I don't think they work and just motivate conservatives to oppose them, but I also reject libertarian fantasies about the "right" to self defense. I don't if many Japanese think they would be "freer" with open carry.
But violence in the US isn't a general problem, it's mostly confined to a small percentage of the population, living in a small percentage of the country. Most of the population lives in low crime America.
It's just that those ultra-high crime rate locations are SO dangerous that they skew the entire country's statistics.
Now, to be fair, the same could be said of a lot of other countries; We may have an especially bad urban gang problem, but even in Europe crime is mostly an urban gang phenomenon.
Brett Bellmore : “Most of the population lives in low crime America”
This is true of most cities. I live in one notorious for crime. Two nights ago I was doing my mile-walk between office and home and passed a young women going the same way. I sensed her staying right behind me, and began to wonder if she wasn’t keeping with me for security. Sure enough, she soon asked if it was safe to walk that street. I said it was; I’d been doing it for years. She was new to the city, and we both agreed you have to know your area.
So, yeah, my city is notorious for crime. But most of that is in areas crushed under brutal poverty. For much of the city, the risk is minimal.
Crime rates are very granular, and vary wildly; By the time you get down to the street level, it varies by about 3 orders of magnitude from place to place.
Zip codes and even street intersections.
Wouldn't say the article "ignores" gun violence/gun control. Rather, that is not the point of the article.
As the article puts it: "It is critically important to distinguish between the law of self-defense (that is, statutes and court rulings) and the means to defend oneself (that is, weapons and firearms). There is, of course, plenty of room to debate the precise contours of U.S. self-defense and gun laws — both in public policy and in ethics. Nevertheless, to be meaningful in its aims for justice, the public policy discourse around law reform, arms ownership, and the right to exercise self-preferential force must first be properly informed by the type of defensive violence that U.S. self-defense law actually sanctions. . . . One possible explanation for th[e] wholesale misreading of the law by those who should know better is that, in addition to an overreliance on uncritically accepted received wisdom, there is a pervasive tendency to conflate access to deadly force in the form of firearms (via what some consider excessively lax gun laws) with the legal authorization of the same. Perhaps this commingling can be traced to an overreliance on ideological priors."
Maybe this is a little off topic, but it seemed like a good opportunity for a non-lawyer to ask a question I've been thinking about for sometime. Hopefully someone with more legal knowledge than I can shed some light on it.
I have seen mentioned in lists of supreme court cases regarding self-defense Brown v. United States (1921), but seem to have never seen any analysis of the case or explanation as to why the holding would not imply that there is no duty to retreat in a self-defense situation nationwide. It is interesting to me as to how this might be different than the state by state discussion of stand your ground we often see. I understand that one is a discussion of state passed laws of self defense and the other is a court case regarding the the limits of a self-defense defense, but it seems like from my amateur reading that the case should have more bearing on the discussion than it does. What am I missing?
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/256/335/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._United_States_(1921)
Any thoughts on this or pointers to further reading?
It's not nationwide because it isn't a constitutional case or an area where the government can legislate nationwide. The place it happened was under federal jurisdiction so federal law controlled for that reason. So the opinion only is interpreting the duty to retreat in federal jurisdiction areas. State jurisdictions aren't bound by that and state law can differ
The incident in Brown occurred in a location under exclusive Federal jurisdiction. Brown was tried in a Federal court under Federal law. The decision did not decide the question on constitutional grounds. As a result it has nothing to say about state laws, and it does not prevent Congress from establishing a different rule.
Thanks for both replies. That is largely what I assumed, but wasn't certain what the reach of the decision was exactly. So with that a couple of follow up questions.
1) As a supreme court decision, would Brown be a strong cite to challenge an indictment/conviction in a state requiring retreat before self-defense as the state requirements to retreat being too great a burden on the "right" to self-defense?
2) As mentioned above the Brown case wasn't decided on constitutional grounds. However given that the opinions in Heller, McDonald, and Bruen consistently cite self-defense as a need for the right to own and carry arms, is there a case to be made that there is a constitutional "right" to self-defense and citing Brown as precedent the duty to retreat is overly burdensome?
All hypothetical I know and ultimately it would take a case (likely a conviction) that largely turns on duty to retreat being presented to determine the answer fully, but I'm curious what the lawyers think of those ideas.
The short answer to both is that the duty to retreat has been around for a long time, basically since the country was formed, and has never been found unconstitutional. So it is extremely unlikely that it would be so now. It also doesn't "burden" self defense, since you only have to retreat if it can be done so safely. So it is more things like freedom of movement and protection of property that are getting burdened.
Specifically to #1, it has virtually zero relevance to the law of a specific state so, no it wouldn't be strong precedent to cite.
Do you happen to know how many states impose a duty to retreat?
The list I found is: Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Maryland, Maine, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Wisconsin -- which would be 13.
But there are shades within that list. For example, Wisconsin doesn't have a firm requirement to retreat; however, except under conditions paralleling the castle doctrine, the defender's ability to retreat may be included within the jury instructions for proportionality / objective necessity = would a reasonable man have thought he needed to use force to defend himself.
Stand-your-ground laws, correct me if I'm wrong, hinge on jury instructions to the effect that 'you cannot find the defendant guilty if he had a right to be and to remain where he was at the moment he used lethal force in self defense.'
A lawyer specializing in representing defendants in self-defense situations even counsels his clients to not rely on SYG, because juries often ignore such instructions, and assume a duty to retreat even if the law stipulates no such duty.
"even if the law expressly denies existence of such duty."
Stand your ground laws simply remove any otherwise existing state law duty to retreat. So the person claiming self-defense must still establish the following criteria:
The (Unprovoked) Attack: The defender subjectively (that is, honestly) believed he or she was facing an actual unlawful attack;
Necessity: The defender subjectively believed the amount of force used or threatened was necessary to prevent or terminate the interference (the underlying principle being that all human life, even the life of a violent criminal, is valuable and should be protected except when the defender has no option but to resort to defensive force);
Objective Reasonableness: The defender was objectively reasonable in his or her belief, even if mistaken, that defensive force was necessary to thwart the attack (another nonuniversal safeguard limiting defensive violence); and
Timing/Imminence: The attack was either ongoing or imminent.
Special Rules for Deadly Defensive Force: In the United States, deadly force is available only where the defendant reasonably believed the force was necessary to prevent imminent (1) death; (2) great bodily harm, such as serious permanent disfigurement, protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or other serious bodily injury; or (3) the commission of certain serious offenses/forcible felonies, such as kidnapping, arson, rape, burglary, and robbery.
Stand your ground laws, therefore, primarily limit the traditional duty to retreat prior to using deadly defensive force. They do not, however, as many have erroneously claimed, somehow authorize deadly force to ward off nonserious threats.
So our laws are within shouting distance of those around the world? That’s good, but it hardly makes a difference if the society behind the laws is morally rotten with indulgent “fear” and fantasies of gun retribution. I’m not talking about the old man who answers the door shooting some kid at the wrong house. We all agree that’s wrong. But consider the case of Curtis J. Reeves Jr, who murdered a man in a movie theater who threw popcorn at him. A Florida jury acquitted him in 3-1/2 hours because Reeves said he “felt scared”. There, the rot included six jurors along with the murderer.
Or consider the case of Professor Volokh. After a post praising churches for arming themselves to the teeth, he was asked against what? The answer was swift and sure : Against those targeting them. It took a calculator and two minutes to determine that “danger” ran to odds of multi-hundred-thousands to one. But when fear is like a luxurious warm bath and you want reasons to justify your guns, that kind of math is ignored. Almost “distasteful”.
I read an article on gun classes, which we all agree (with the article author) are a good thing. Yet he described this :
“Instructors repeatedly told me that a big part of their job was to make people feel vulnerable, to make them aware of dangers they were not conscious of before to understand that bad things can happen at any time. One instructor told me he encourages students to carry their gun at all times. If students say they plan to leave it in the car, he responds, “So what you’re telling me is the only time you are ever going to get attacked is if you are in your car?”
The instructors described a world teeming with violent and deranged individuals. They told students to ignore statistics about crime and consider everyone around them a possible predator. When that kind of mindless paranoia spreads culture-wide, bad things happen.
I hiked the AT back in 2010 and people still ask if I carried a gun. When I laugh and ask why, they work to puzzle out a response. The question seemed so self-explanatory to them. (bears and psycho-killers wearing hockey masks being their common answer) It does no good to talk the odds. It does no good to explain how many ramen could be packed for the weight of a worthless gun. I sometimes ask them to image dragging a cart down the trail filled with all the items equally likely to prove “life saving” as a gun, but that does little good either. They like their fear porn. They like the fantasies of self-empowerment a gun gives them. What’s common sense (or laws) compared to that?
Elaborate further.
Can you quote from the transcript to support your assertion that the acquittal was wrong?
You should find out what the Secret Service is packing.
When is the last time that the Secret Service killed anyone?
Does that matter?
Here: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/curtis-reeves-murder-trial-acquitted.html
Near the end of my AT hike, I was in Hot Springs, NC. (I was a SoBo). It was winter and the conditions were pretty harsh, so I spent a couple of days at the town hostel - the only one on the Trail that listed its library as a prime feature.
There, I read another account of someone's gun class. His instructor's thing was "levels on awareness". Red Alert was when things are fast & furious as you battle Nazi frogmen commandos (or whatever the fantasy of the day). Obviously more common was Yellow Alert, when you're highly aware of location and angles, constantly monitoring your situation for threats and variation of response. Lastly, was White Alert, when you walk about humming your favorite tune, thinking about that book you're reading or dreaming of possible love.
Per the author, his fellow students found Yellow Alert quite the buzz. It made them feel excited and engaged. They began to see White Alert folk as hopeless sheep.
Me? I just don't need the simulant. White Alert all the way.....
You are entitled to conduct yourself in that manner if you want.
No one is entitled, however, to demand that others do so, or to outlaw the means to respond should one's Condition Yellow necessitate escalation to Red or Black.
Where do you read any such "demand"?
Not from you, grb. There are others.
No, the jury acquitted him because the "victim" was a violent tattooed thug who assaulted a much older man.
Here's it is folks : Exhibit A to prove my point. Our very own hoppy025 has zero problem magically transforming tossed popcorn into a violent attack.
There was no "violent tattooed thug" and there was no "assault". A old man got pissed during a petty argument and murdered a stranger. When you're committed to cheap-movie-grade fantasies of violent retribution like hoppy, your brain can transmogrify a bag of popcorn into life-threatening danger. When you've got a society full of freaks like hoppy, you can have the poor draw of six jurors who excuse simple pointless murder.
(I would make a comment about "Florida Man" here, but having been foreman on a six-person Florida jury once, it would strike too close to home)
Throwing popcorn during an argument is a sign of losing one’s temper. It’s reasonable for an older man to infer that a younger tattooed man with a temper problem is about to cause imminent great bodily harm.
Hence, the acquittal.
Here's your tattooed "victim."
https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b1f4e4a/2147483647/strip/true/crop/640x336+0+72/resize/1200x630!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.abcactionnews.com%2Fphoto%2F2016%2F01%2F14%2FNicole_Oulson_talks_about_Curtis_Reeves__0_29922633_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
Hence your insanity, on display for all to see.....
"but it hardly makes a difference if the society behind the laws is morally rotten with indulgent “fear” and fantasies of gun retribution."
You know, when last I looked, ordinary citizens legally carrying concealed had a lower wrongful shooting rate than the police. How do you square that with your assumptions about motivations?
I think if people made rational decisions about guns, there would be millions upon millions upon millions fewer (or is it "less"?) guns in circulation. Of course this country would then be a much better & safer place.
There's no question whatsoever about that....
Define "rational decisions."
"The same decision GRB would make."
How does the lowering number of guns I own make this country "...a much better and safer place." ?
Remember, grb is one who is proud of his ignorance about guns and gun-related matters.
Treating an argument seriously from someone that deliberately avoids learning the facts just wastes your time and annoys the pig.
"If students say they plan to leave it in the car, he responds"
so you wouldn't mind your firearm being stolen from your car?
Really? That's the best you can do?
Do you deserve my best?
The odds of being attacked are meaningless when you find yourself the "lucky" one picked.
If picked, the question shouldn't be how likely was it that I got picked but instead now that I have been picked, what is the best way for me to defend myself.
The most important question is what on earth made you suppose you had been singled out for attack, before you actually were attacked, but decided to start shooting anyway. Leave aside all the cases where utter innocents get shot because they knock on the wrong door by mistake. Even someone breaking into your home with intent to steal your stuff is almost never doing so with intent to do you any physical harm at all. Of course I understand that pointing out that indisputable fact will infuriate pro-gun apologists with a jones to broaden excuses for gun violence.
Why should it matter why I was singled out for attack?
Why should I suppose the guy who just broke into my home is there merely for stuff?
While it's rare for families to be murdered and their house set on fire, it does happen, and I would rather live in a society where people can, of their own prerogative, choose to purchase the tools and training to prevent these things from happening, than I would where it's acceptable to accept such crimes as collateral damage necessary to preserve the lives of people who have demonstrated they don't value other people's lives above their own.
I meant picked by fate or circumstance.
https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/texas-is-the-worst-state-to-live-and-work-according-to-cnbc-analysis/#:~:text=CNBC%20calculated%20a%202023%20life,327%20points%20out%20of%20350.
Yeah, because not being "inclusive" makes it a bad place to live. Maybe it makes it bad for degenerates like the Rev Kirkland, but not to normal people.
Booby traps are illegal. Now, with AI to the rescue, could it be shown that the AI is reasonable enough to avoid negligence?
There is a difference between what the law is and what prosecutors, courts and juries do. I have little doubt that Funk is right about the law. About the actors, I am unsure.
BTW Funk did not get a Ph.D from Oxford. He got a D.Phil 🙂
Nice catch, SRG! "PhD" comes from the Latin phrase "philosophiae doctor," whereas Oxford' "DPhil" derives from the English phrase "Doctor of Philosophy." In the end, then, both terms (DPhil and PhD) = "Doctor of Philosophy" (though the former provides a hint at what institution issued the PhD).
Oxford is idiosyncratic with degrees in general - the master's degree in law is "Bachelor of Civil Law" (BCL).
I would suggest that, if someone calls you at your home and days "I'll be there in 5 minutes, and I'm gonna kill you", you don't have the right to get your gun, wait near the door, and when he arrives several minutes later, take aim and kill him. You are only physically threatened once he arrives. U til then, you can leave, get the police involved, etc.
However, if you wake up in the middle of the night, and a man is inside your house with a weapon, even if there is a means of escape, you have a right to end him there. At the point he is inside your house, your life is in danger, whether you have a means of retreat or not.
Have you considered that they may have lied as to their location and would welcome your attempt to escape?
Staying in your locked home while armed is the rational thing to do. After having called 911 of course.
The article is rhetorical garbage, I'm sorry to say.
1. The premise is that liberal media say "X" about U.S. self-defense laws, but the quotes are neither clear statements of "X" nor representative of the "media" in general. Quoting a law review article, e.g., does not demonstrate a widely held view. And the quotes themselves do not say what the author suggests they do.
2. The attempt at comparative legal analysis is beyond superficial. For one thing, the author never engages the question of what constitutes U.S. law (which is not a thing in this arena) except to wave away certain unhelpful laws such as the Texas rights. A serious analysis would need to create a 50-state matrix of what rights one can defend with deadly force, an analysis of the scienter requirements, and an analysis of the retreat duty. Must one retreat always? Only from public spaces? What about in one's business? Can one use deadly force to defend a neighbor's property (Texas!)? What constitutes a "burglary" or "robbery"? The devil is very much in the details in many states.
3. The comparison also fails to consider other countries' gun and weapon laws. The U.S. needs a well-defined regime for when one can pull one's very-available trigger on a very lethal weapon. Other countries control access to the weapons, so the relative unavailability of lethal response permits their laws to focus less on the rules of engagement. People simply don't stab or bludgeon robbers to death with the same frequency. This shows up in the gross numbers of self-defense killings and murders, where the U.S. reigns supreme.
Victim disarmament is the answer.
First, when a broad range of major sources, ranging from opinion sites to top newspapers, 'explainer' sites, health organizations, law reviews, and 'expert' Congressional testimony, it seems reasonable to conclude that such a view is 'widely held', especially when the citations include a large spread of publications to prove they exist. Trying to handwave away the author's conclusions, especially when specific cites are given (that do, seemingly, support his claim rather than yours) requires substantially more evidence on your part than you've given. Ironic, considering your complaint about "rhetorical garbage".
Next, it's a 4-page article, not an exhaustive study, and as such it uses generalizations and general definitions rather than a 50 state and 190 nation matrix. When it cites English or German laws on self-defense (which you claim it doesn't), it is backed up by a dozen or so cases in addition to those from a wide swath of other countries. Again, if you wanted to show that his citations or conclusions are wrong, well, he did provide plenty of specifics for you to review and detail his errors. Your complete lack of any evidence, combined with your factually incorrect statements already made, do little to support your claims.
And as for your third paragraph, well, it isn't anything close to an argument. It isn't even a criticism of the article; it's just a rant about your opinions. If you wanted to, you could attempt to form a coherent thought out of all those words, and present it as an argument towards something, but until you do, it's just "rhetorical garbage".
You have identified the brilliance of the article's uselessness. It's loaded up with citations, but they're mainly anecdotal in nature. Here's the thing: I'll allow the possibility that his conclusion could be correct. That's why I read it critically. But having compared the citations to the argument, I don't think the 4-page article (as you note) carries the water.
As you say, it "uses generalizations and general definitions." That leaves much room for the author to spin the issues. Generalization allows straw man and steel man arguments. Those should not be confused with careful analysis. That's all I'm saying.
The danger, in my view, is people latching on to his actually unsupported conclusions--yes, notwithstanding his blizzard of citations to marginally supportive evidence--as though he had completed a real comparative legal analysis.
My third paragraph takes no position on the matter. I pointed out that, perhaps, because the U.S. has more available guns it has developed a more rigorous self-defense regime than other countries who (I'm told) have more restrictive gun laws and therefore less political pressure to draw kill/don't kill lines in their laws.
For more info on the moral foundations of self-defense, generally, and a fairly exhaustive comparative law analysis, specifically: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1509934170/reasonmagazinea-20/
3. People simply don’t stab or bludgeon robbers to death with the same frequency. This shows up in the gross numbers of self-defense killings and murders, where the U.S. reigns supreme.
Why yes, criminals tend to be more physically fit than their preferred victims.
That's why decent countries, like the US, want to make sure the potential victims has a chance to be armed: so they can protect themselves from the criminals
The absolute worst self-defense regimes are those such as formerly-Great Britain that demand "proportionality" of force - and interpret that as forbidding a 90 year old woman weighing 6 stones from shooting a knife-wielding 20-year old 16-stone thug.
What about the Quran?
Dianetics?
Are you referring to, say, 'turn the other cheek?'
Depends on whether you use a strict definition, which only includes turf battles, or you count all the murders that result from having them around pushing up crime rates.
Remember, most murderers ARE criminals. So are most murder victims.
Utilitarianism is at its best a metaphor, and at worst a metaphor gone cancerous. The idea that you can do math on human happiness is silly. Utilitarians can't even seem to decide if the math is scalar or vector.
Economic-style thinking that requires access to bodies of information that doesn’t exist, and pretends to be comprehensive, unbiased, and transparent.
As a metaphor it's not too bad a way of thinking about choices you make in the domain of choices you're entitled to make. As long as you remember it's JUST a metaphor.
The problems start when people start to think that they're entitled to do anything they want that has a positive 'balance'. Thinking that other peoples' rights go away if doing something increases 'utility'.
OK, let's quibble then. He values the attacker's life as much as he values the victim's life.
The victim still begs to differ.
Martinned is not in fact defending duty to retreat laws. He's sniping about an article that he admits to not having read and repeatedly commenting about "the question posed in the OP" in ways that clearly demonstrate that he didn't understand that either.
As far as I know, no American jurisdiction has ever imposed a duty to retreat when a person is in their own home.
There's even more difference between "I'm being attacked and have a split second to save my own life" vs "We've had months and years and dusty libraries full of case law and still have a split decision which says you goofed and should not have saved your own life".
There’s so much room between “retreat if you reasonably can” and “lie back enjoy rape!”
No, there isn't.
Because, as we see in the way the Soros DA in NYC charges people, ""etreat if you reasonably can" translates to "your life has no value if the prosecutor decides he doesn't like you".
"Duty to retreat" as a practical matter turns into "we will throw you in jail if you decide to protect your life."
If you value non-criminal human life, then you support "stand yoru ground"
Throwing anything at someone during an argument is an assault. Don't be an asshole and you won't end up shot.
I like any place where groomers like you are not welcome.
Duties to retreat, to avoid places where violence is likely, etc. implicate a number of sometimes-competing values. This Georgetown article summarizes the list of values that one commentator, at least, considers implicated in all self-defense cases: https://www.law.georgetown.edu/american-criminal-law-review/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2021/04/58-2-Funk-Understanding-the-Roles-Values-Play.pdf
Sometimes retreat is not possible. Talk to some attorneys who represent clients who have used lethal force in self defense.
I recall that Florida was actually a "stand your ground" state, as a matter of common law, until the state Supreme court ruled, contrary to actual history, that it was a duty to retreat state.
The legislature had to statutorily restore the state to "stand your ground".
Duty to retreat was, so far as I can tell, mostly a judicial creation.
If the law is supporting someone who is bullying you into leaving where you want to be through a "duty to retreat", then the law is endorsing and celebrating THEIR violence, and their threats.
That's the diametric opposite of showing respect for and support for human dignity
Why do you leftists always support criminals first? Why do you make folk heroes out of criminals like George Floyd and Thugvon Martin?
That's still wrong. Someone threatening me does not value my life. Why should I value his? Why should I be his temporary slave while he decides where I can be?
You have to look at this as a repeat game, not one off. It's not like fate just randomly assigns Bob the one time task of robbing George, which he has never done the like before, and never will again.
Sure, one off, if Bob walks away alive with George's money, it looks better than Bob dying and George's hands, unless you place a very low value indeed on Bob's life.
Analyzed as a repeat game, however, you realize that Bob is a professional robber, and will keep robbing, over and over. So if George drops Bob, he doesn't just spare himself a robbery, he spares all of Bob's future victims, too.
And Bob isn't using sweet reason to get his cash. He's threatening violence to get it. Surely there's a non-zero chance over all Bob's future robberies that Bob himself will kill somebody, and in this case, an innocent man, not a robber in the act. George zeros out this possibility, too, by dropping Bob.
Then try generalizing: Suppose there is in fact a societal expectation that a significant fraction of robbery victims will kill their attacker; What's that going to do to the robbery rate, compared to a society where people are expected to meekly hand over the loot?
Even simpler is the simple deduction that someone who threatens me does not value my life, and the further simple deduction that I should humor his decision that life has no value.
I think we agree on this, Brett - utilitarianism is pretty boneheaded as a system.
Utility is a good thing to bear in mind when you're looking at moral evaluations, if relevant.
"intentional homicide" is the (clunky) engine translation. What it means is that the "act of defense" = deadly defensive force.
Yes, there are several databases of shootings (though not connected or therefore none that is comprehensive). Many of those databases also show whether shooter was a concealed carry license holder. And, yes, the statistics are reliably reproduced across the multiple databases that concealed carry license holders are involved in fewer wrongful shootings than the police that gun control advocates keep saying we should defer to.
Here is one of the many such studies.
Even more illuminating are the surveys of people who were prepared to discharge a firearm in a self-defense incident, but did not.
https://reason.com/2018/09/04/what-the-cdcs-mid-90s-surveys-on-defensi/
To be fair to the police, the CCW holders typically have the advantage of having been there when things started, rather than showing up late to the party, so they're less likely to make mistakes about who is in the wrong.
It will be interesting to see what 'constitutional carry' does to these statistics. I suspect not a lot.
Ethical theories are not "correct" in any sense similar to physical theories. (The Is/Ought problem!) They are, essentially, just opinions.
They certainly can be internally inconsistent, of course, infeasible, or just incoherent. You can't rightfully say an ethical theory is 'correct' if it contradicts itself, demands you do the impossible, or can't be parsed to the point of knowing what it actually recommends.
I think Utilitarianism fails on the latter two criteria, in that knowing what to do under it requires information nobody but God would have, and objectively establishing relative utilities is pretty much a non-starter, the theory doesn't even suggest how to do it.
Here's a fun thought experiment. Based solely on Nazi and Communist rhetoric, what horrors did those societies unleash on the human population, that would have been prevented by an appeal to utilitarianism?
Hint: both societies were created on the basis of utilitarianism -- Society is more important than the Individual, ie the greatest good for the greatest number -- and thus easily justified the squashing of human ants to secure the Greater Good.
Fair enough. Is that supposed to mean that Christians are forbidden from using lethal force in defense of self or others?
I don't think that's relevant to the studies, Brett. In the studies I've seen, the officer-involved shootings aren't even counted unless the officer was so wrong as to be criminally charged, not merely mistaken. For example, the cop who pulled his service revolver during a drunken argument in a nightclub. The cop was not only there when the argument started, he was one of the participants. Likewise, the relatively few CCW-holders on the list are there (I want to say entirely but there may be a few exceptions) for their own crimes, not for their interventions.
I criticized utilitarianism's pretense of being a real, usable moral theory. I think it's not an unreasonable approach to analyzing one's own actions within the domain of acts you're entitled to engage in.
“2. Why is it ok to kill someone when I can easily avoid serious imminent harm?”
Because a duty to retreat provides yet another tool for prosecutors like Alvin Bragg to put people in prison for defending themselves against criminals.
Also bears noting: people who train others to use lethal force in self defense stress that the purpose, the goal, of the force is not to take the attacker's life, but to stop the threat. Unfortunately, the amount of force necessary to stop the threat is very close to the amount of force that can take a life, and under the circumstances, as explained in the article, one cannot carefully calibrate the amount of force such that the attack stops but the life is not taken.
It works for choosing a hamburger versus fish tacos, or Toyota versus Hyundai. When you are making the choice for yourself and living with the consequences. For public policy, though, I find it macabre.
If you are a big contributor to or supporter of the prosecutor's party, then whatever retreat options there were are not very safe. OTOH, if you are a member of the out party, good luck. The whole purpose of caste doctrine is to avoid double victimization, once by a home invader and then by the prosecutor.
I'm curious if you happen to know how many "duty to retreat" States there are?
And legislatures enacted stand-your-ground laws primarily because prosecutors could not be trusted to reasonably interpret those limitations.
The duty to retreat only attaches if it is possible to retreat with complete safety.
You should value someone else's life because experience teaches that people encounter others who feel threatened far more often than those people actually intend threats. That goes especially for others hopped up on the drug of armed self-defense vigilance as a way of life. Your commentary demonstrates to me that you are a person who should never be permitted to carry a gun, because you are both hyper-vigilant and too fearful to be trusted to use it reasonably.
Note also the tendency of pro-gun comments here to veer away from strict self-defense, and to reach instead for vigilantism as a justification.
Approximately one-fourth of U.S. states take deadly self-defense off the table when the defender could have retreated in complete safety. But, pursuant to the "castle doctrine," even those states do not require such retreat in one's own home or, in some states, one's own workplace or vehicle. The remaining states, sometimes labeled "stand your ground" states, do not impose any categorical duty of safe retreat, regardless of where the attack occurs.
I believe that is correct. Even in today's "stand your ground" states, there is no categorical duty of safe retreat, regardless of where the attack occurs (in home or otherwise). I believe that has been true throughout US history - but glad to be corrected on this.
Massachusetts has, by court fiat. The Legislature didn't like that, and passed a law to reverse it, but the Courts didn't like that, and basically nullified the Legislature's law.
Thus, if you are attacked in your own home by an intruder, you have the duty to retreat, and the Prosecutor has case law to back him up if you don't, and he decides to charge you with murder.
This is one of several reasons I talk about returning home to America whenever I leave Massachusetts!
In theory. In practice, the duty to retreat attaches when the prosecutor Monday-morning quarterbacking the defendant thinks he should have retreated. The jury may be more reasonable, but the trial itself is a significant punishment.
Note also the tendency of pro-gun comments here to veer away from strict self-defense, and to reach instead for vigilantism as a justification.
It's less than your tendency to make shit up.
Your commentary demonstrates to me that you are a person who should never be permitted to carry a gun, because you are more likely to just piss your pants and give it to your attacker.
You do realize that the law requires more than the feelz to respond in self defense, don't you? That the law requires reasonable belief?
When someone breaks into your home, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that person is there to rape and kill you, and perhaps even set your house on fire. Indeed, that's even happened.
When someone pulls out a gun and says "I'm going to kill you" or "you're coming with me", there isn't exactly subtlety in the action, nor is there necessarily the time to identify safe exits and run.
Yet these are the kind of things you push as "people who merely feel threatened".
No, if you valued life, you would mourn the people shot trying to maim or outright kill innocent life, for having made the horrible decisions that brought them to that point of getting shot, instead of getting their life together, and seeking out an honest living.
Oh good, we just all have to become mind-readers. How long do we have to wait to determine whether or not a person is able to kill us, and what standard applies? Must we play 20 questions first?
You do realize that ability of the attacker is a major component of judging the reasonableness of self defense, don't you?
No one's saying we should blast 4-year-olds away with mortars when one cries out "I'm going to kill you!" and kicks me in the shin.
Indeed, in most of these cases, we're talking about home invasions, people with weapons, rape, and other indications that the person making the threat is, indeed, capable of performing it.
So what?
No one has a right to threaten me. You want to live? Don't criminally threaten other people's lives
I remember following the trial. I don't remember the details, but this guy got acquitted because the attacker was doing much more than tossing popcorn. The popcorn was merely what the Press decided to focus on.
To be fair, if only that guy had the training we give to police officers! Then maybe he wouldn't have felt so threatened by people throwing popcorn.
(For the record, that's sarcasm. The guy is a retired police officer.)
Are you really ignorant of Biden's crimes, Queenie?
When it comes to criminal Presidential candidates, the GOP has nothing on you Dems
You beat me to the punch.
In fact, in one case, a Massachusetts judge penalized an elderly female defendant for not "retreating" through a window in her basement, one that was located too high on the wall for her to have any chance at all of using it as an exit.
Which states are those that impose a duty to retreat?