The Volokh Conspiracy
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On Groff v. DeJoy and 303 Creative v. Elenis
Not blockbusters, maybe, but important cases nonetheless
The just-completed SCOTUS term hardly matches the last one in terms of blockbuster church-and-state decisions. The justices did issue a couple of important rulings, though, one of which suggests they may be rethinking an important element of their anti-discrimination jurisprudence.
The first case is Groff v. DeJoy, which concerns the meaning of a phrase in Title VII, the federal law that prohibits employment discrimination based, among other things, on religion. Title VII provides that an employer must reasonably accommodate an employee's religious practice unless the employer is unable to do so "without undue hardship on the conduct of the employer's business." Decades ago, in TWA v. Hardison (1977), a typically confusing Burger Court opinion, the Court suggested that "undue hardship" means any cost that would be beyond "de minimis." Thus, if accommodating an employee's religious practice would require anything more than a trivial adjustment, the employer would need to do nothing. That's pretty weak tea, especially for an anti-discrimination statute.
In Groff, the Court ruled unanimously that the de minimis standard is not the correct reading of Title VII. True, Hardison used the phrase "de minimis" in describing an employer's obligation, but other language in the decision suggested a stricter standard. In fact, the Groff Court said, the test for "undue hardship" is whether accommodating an employee's religious practice would cause the employer to incur a substantial increased cost in the context of the employer's business. The Court left it for the EEOC (and lower courts) to apply the substantiality test in "a common-sense manner."
The Court predicted that not much would change because of its decision, since the EEOC already does a pretty good job at this. It's true that "common-sense manner" doesn't provide a lot of guidance—and in today's polarized culture, the notion that "common sense" exists on a question of religious accommodation might be aspirational. But a 9-0 opinion suggests that the Court thinks enough shared ground exists to support a reasonably predictable jurisprudence on what a "substantial" cost would be.
The second case is 303 Creative v. Elenis, which has received much more attention. Although 303 Creative is a free speech rather than a free exercise case, it has church-state implications. Colorado's public accommodations law, known as CADA, prohibits discrimination based on, among other things, sexual orientation. In 303 Creative, a commercial web designer argued that requiring her to create websites for same-sex weddings, as CADA would do, would violate her free speech rights, since it would require her to say something she did not believe. Designing a website for a same-sex wedding, she argued, would express her approval of same-sex marriage, which she disapproved on religious grounds.
In a 6-3 decision by Justice Gorsuch, the Court ruled for the designer. Colorado had a compelling interest in preventing discrimination in the market, Gorsuch wrote, but that interest did not outweigh the designer's free speech rights. He noted that Colorado had stipulated that the designer was willing to serve gay customers: she didn't object to serving gay people, but to the message she would be asked to express. Justice Sotomayor's dissent ridiculed this distinction, but Justice Gorsuch is not the first high-court judge to make it. In Lee v. Ashers Bakery (2018), the UK Supreme Court drew the same distinction in ruling that UK anti-discrimination law did not require a baker to design a cake with a pro-same sex marriage message. Indeed, Justice Gorsuch cited Ashers Bakery in support of his conclusion.
The distinction between discrimination based on a customer's status (not allowed) and discrimination based on the message a customer requests (constitutionally protected) could turn out to be important in other contexts as well. For example, a dozen years ago, in CLS v. Martinez (2010), the Court dismissed the idea that a Christian student group at a public university could legally exclude persons who engage in same-sex conduct. The Christian group maintained that it did not wish to exclude persons because of status but conduct: the group did not wish to endorse conduct it found objectionable on religious grounds. The Court dismissed that argument. In the context of LGBT rights, it wrote, discrimination based on conduct amounts to discrimination based on status, much as a tax on wearing yarmulkes would amount to a tax on Jews. The distinction the Christian group was trying to draw did not exist.
Many people would agree with that, but 303 Creative suggests the Court no longer does. Martinez was a factually complicated case that, like 303 Creative, turned on the parties' stipulations. But, after 303 Creative, couldn't a Christian group maintain that it excludes LGBT persons based on message, not status—more precisely, that the group doesn't want to express approval of conduct it finds objectionable on religious grounds? Perhaps the Court won't take the logic that far. But Justice Gorsuch's opinion in 303 Creative suggests the Court might decide a case like CLS v. Martinez differently today.
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If the dissent in 303 had prevailed, a Jewish baker could be compelled to make a swastika shaped cake.
My problem with Groff is one of laziness: the court threw out the old rule, created a fuzzy new rule, and said "work amongst yourselves to figure out what we meant with this fuzzy new rule, and we'll tell you in a year or two if we like your answer". And at no point has the underlying law actually changed.
My problem with 303 Creative is one of consistency: I have zero expectation it'll be fairly applied. Face it, the logic in the case would apply as readily to Smith objecting to mixed-race marriages or mixed-faith marriages. But if you think she would have even gotten cert if those were her objections, then you're an idiot.
At least with the Groff case that might eventually let a Muslim Amazon delivery driver pause the clock so he can pray or something. But 303? Nah, that's only going to help the folks that hate gays.
Excherenigma -"But 303? Nah, that’s only going to help the folks that hate gays."
E - you should read the stipulated facts in the case
T: You should read what I wrote. I am not contesting any of the lawyer speak. I am contesting that it was written in good faith.
The opinion is correct, so if it isn't applied to someone who objects to mixed-race marriages or mixed-faith marriages then that someone will have a legitimate complaint. But your "oppress them all., for consistency" position is ridiculous.
Like Tom, you should read what I wrote instead of projecting your fears onto the scary gay man.
I think you're right that this case was designed to let the court virtue-signal its anti-gayness. That was the basic point of the dissent. It's a nonsense case.
But I don't see how lower courts can possibly cabin it to anti-gay messages. Now that it's out there, they're gonna have to put it into effect in all of its crazy glory.
No they don't.
A case has to get all the way to the SCOTUS before the SCOTUS will chide a lower court for not applying one of their decisions. And pray-tell... when was the last time the SCOTUS heard a public accommodation case that didn't involve gay folk?
So nah. Lower courts can ignore this if there are no gay folk present, and the case won't ever get to SCOTUS to have them say "um, actually, apply 303".
The court system can prove me wrong, of course. But given the track record, I don't see why I should take that position before they do.
What're you talking about? The Ninth Circuit is gonna love this!
You have your prediction, I have mine.
It grants Christians the same freedom from gay retribution that the Muslims enjoy.
There has been no activist, militant gays lashing out at their Muslim mothers and fathers that rejected them like there have been Christians for the past two decades since the homosexuals gained so much political power.
"I have zero expectation it’ll be fairly applied."
As one commenter puts it, hypothetical outrages are the worst.
Heh. Irony.
That said, I'm not "outraged". Mildly disgruntled, sure. But "outraged"? Nah.
But I can see how you might reach that wrong conclusion, given my posting over the past week. But I think you'll find if you review them, that while I hold a great deal of contempt for the anti-gay bigots who are cheering over this, I'm rather dispassionate to the decision itself.
"... I’m rather dispassionate to the decision itself."
This sentence fragment is not in English.
The sentence is fine; it's you being a bad faith reader that's the problem.
Don't many of the Court's significant decisions leave much line drawing to later rounds? They have the facts of the case in front of them and need to resolve it - not some theoretical future case.
The Heller, McDonald, Bruen, and (likely future) NextGovernmentAttemptToSidestepRuling sequence seem to be quite similar in this regard.
And I think that's a bad thing, yes.
No. A person's conduct is a proxy for that person's status. If website lady had said she would turn down customers who engaged in same-sex sex, she would've lost, since that places the emphasis on the customer, not on her own message.
It's hard to imagine any case where one person's status comes in direct conflict with another person's message, at least in the gay context, since "being gay" isn't an outward feature. Hurley doesn't help. There, a group's pro-gay message conflicted with the parade's anti-gay message, but gay people were still allowed to march in the parade. Similarly, a photographer might decline to photograph people wearing rainbow shirts... whether or not said people were actually gay. But it's hard to imagine a photographer claiming not to want to take pictures of gay people at all. That a photo subject is gay (or engages in gay conduct) doesn't affect the photo at all.
But wait till we get a photographer who doesn't want to depict Black people. That'll be a hoot! Good luck with that one, Gorsuch.
Now suppose the web designer is asked by a prospective gay client to create a website that includes lessons on how to engage in gay sex. Could she not say?, "I will not do this; not because my prospective client is gay or engages in gay sex, but because I believe gay sex is deeply immoral and I don't want to produce speech that advances its advocacy."
Under 303 Creative, she totally can do that.
Without 303 Creative, she could totally do that.
If she also refuses to create websites with lessons on straight sex, sure. But if she creates those websites, it seems to me she is violating the statute by refusing to create the gay-sex lessons website (and now, 303 Creative doesn't save her).
Of course it does.
Designing a website is considered speech now, and she can refuse to serve anyone for any bigoted reason at all.
Blacks, Jews, gays, people with pencil moustaches, etc. Anyone in the business of 'speech' can now discriminate freely against any of those people and more, for any reason, regardless of anyone's protected class or otherwise.
Conservatives wanted legal discrimination to return, and they found a vehicle to get SCOTUS to rule exactly that.
Firstly, my comment presumed 303 Creative came out the other way (in response to “without 303 Creative”).
Secondly as Dale pointed out, it is not at all clear under 303 Creative web site designers can freely discriminate. Sure, she can refuse to create a gay-sex lessons site. But can she categorically refuse to serve gays without regard to any objection to the message she creates? How about if she offers wedding-site templates and either she or the customer fills in the details?
"But can she categorically refuse to serve gays without regard to any objection to the message she creates?
No. The opinion is all about her being forced to express a message she disagrees with. She OUGHT to be able to refuse to deal with gays IMO, but 303 Creative does not recognize that right. Not clear why you are posing this question when the answer is so obvious.
I posed the question as a response to Jason's comment:
Well, that depends.
Is it her "speech", or the clients' "speech"?
If it's hers, she can --if you take the majority at her word-- refuse anyone for any reason.
If its her clients', then --if you take the majority at her word-- she would be refusing the client instead of refusing the message.
Which is to say, the fact that there were no actual facts in this case, merely assumptions, hypotheticals, and stipulations, really did a lot of heavy lifting. If there had been actual facts, the SCOTUS would have had to consider whether or not her products were sufficiently "creative" to be her own speech rather then the clients' speech. But since there was no actual products, they could assume whatever they wanted.
All that said, give it two to seven years and you'll probably get an answer. ADF is just one activist lawyer group in this country that's set on dismantling non-discrimination laws that protect LGBT folk. So now that they finally got a real win saying that sometimes services are speech, have no doubt, they'll be inventing other cases to see how far the SCOTUS will let them take this.
You know what? Yeah, sure, why not. Unlike the SCOTUS, I don't feel the need to spend months debating an exceptionally stupid hypothetical.
If such a case about a website designer that makes sex-lessons for straights but refuses to make sex--lessons for gays actually comes up, I'll bother to think on this more.
Or, perhaps Dale is correct that it is statutory discrimination on the basis of status that nonetheless doesn't leave speech unprotected.
Where does he say that?
Dale said:
Even the 303 creative dissent, although it huffs and puffs about the "brave justices" who confronted Jim Crow, and the horrifying fact that "A business open to the public seeks to deny gay and lesbian customers the full and equal enjoyment of its services" - in the end they would award same-sex couples a fairly limited right:
"Crucially, the law “does not dictate the content of speech at all, which is only ‘compelled’ if, and to the extent,” the company offers “such speech” to other customers. FAIR, 547 U. S., at 62. Colorado does not require the company to “speak [the State’s] preferred message.” Ante, at 19. Nor does it prohibit the company from speaking the company’s preferred message. The company could, for example, offer only wedding websites with biblical quotations describing marriage as between one man and one woman. Brief for Respondents 15. (Just as it could offer only t-shirts with such quotations.) The company could also refuse to include the words “Love is Love” if it would not provide those words to any customer. All the company has to do is offer its services without regard to customers’ protected characteristics. Id., at 15–16. Any effect on the company’s speech is therefore “incidental” to the State’s content-neutral regulation of conduct. FAIR, 547 U. S., at 62; see Hurley, 515 U. S., at 572–573."
It seems, then, that if a company offers Web sites calling marriage a union of a man and a woman, then gay-married customers would be able to buy a Web site declaring...that marriage is a union of a man and a woman.
And by the same logic, an interracial couple would be able to buy a wedding site saying that marriage is reserved for pure "Aryans."
And this grudging version of antidiscrimination law is from the *dissent*!
"The law, in its majestic equality, allows Jewish customers to purchase the Protocols of the Elders of Zion from the local Antisemites R Us Book Publishing Company." (What Anatole France might have said if he'd been clever enough to think about it)
Yes, that’s the whole point. Nobody wants to force this lady to make gay websites that she legitimately doesn’t want to make.
But she intentionally brought a hypothetical case that’s contrived to be as ridiculously anti-gay as possible. The dissent doesn’t want to give businesses permission to go out of their way to discriminate by hiding behind the First Amendment.
I assume she also wouldn’t make a Satanist wedding site, or all sorts of other websites offensive to her religious beliefs. So it’s not even true that her policy is “no gay stuff.” It’s much more accurately “no anti-Christian stuff.”
“No anti-Christian stuff” would be fine according to the dissent and everyone else in the world. But if your policy really is “no gay stuff,” the only explanation is discrimination… or an attempt to manufacture a court case to give Gorsuch an opportunity to virtue-signal.
I’m not sure why the *state* fought this all the way to the Supreme Court. What benefit would *they* gain by affirming, say, a Christian’s right to buy a “Christians Suck” bumper sticker from the Muslim Memorabilia Company, or the right of an atheist to buy a “We’re Praying to Jesus for You After Your Loss” consolation card from the Christian Greeting Card Corporation?
More to the point, why are the dissenters virtue-signalling as if they’re a bunch of embattled federal judges trying to stop segregation in Jim Crow Alabama?
I don't really understand your question.
The state's purpose is the same as the dissent's: don't allow discrimination to masquerade as free speech.
I don't see any way of reading Gorsuch's opinion, for example, which doesn't allow a photographer to have a "No Blacks" policy. That's what Colorado and the dissent are trying to avoid.
And allowing that isn't necessary in order to give website lady what she wants. Website lady brought a bad-faith hypothetical case.
If the dissent prevailed, then the Ku Klux Korporation could be forced to provide a wedding Web site for an interracial couple, but the KKK could have every page on the Web site adorned with quotes from Theodore Bilbo’s *Take Your Choice: Separation or Mongrelization.*
What a victory for civil rights!
But nobody wants to get their wedding website from the KKK in the first place. That's part of the point.
It's fine to offer a service that gay people don't want or can't use.
But it's not fine to offer a service to everyone but gay people.
That's the distinction the dissent was making. I think it makes sense. But I suspect David Nieporent is gonna tell us all why I'm wrong.
“It’s fine to offer a service that gay people don’t want or can’t use.
“But it’s not fine to offer a service to everyone but gay people.”
I wonder…how many gay-rights activists would accept the first sentence of your remark? They might think you were giving away the store.
Because it's hard to see the "brave justices" of the Jim Crow era fighting for the right of black students to get access to an education they can't use. Yet that's the comparison the dissent came up with.
All that effort, and all that overheated rhetoric, to defend the right of consumers to purchase a product they can't use?
Thomas routinely brags about doing just this.
I'm not sure where that came from.
"It’s fine to offer a service that gay people don’t want or can’t use.
But it’s not fine to offer a service to everyone but gay people."
Okay. So in 303 Creative, she wants to offer same-sex wedding websites, which gay people don't want and can't use. She's happy to offer same-sex wedding websites to everyone, including a gay person who wants to pay for one for their child's wedding or something. Why is this different than your hypothetical?
It's not my hypothetical. The whole case was hypothetical.
The strategy of the litigation was to push the boundaries of how explicitly anti-gay a business could get away with being.
The dissent was like, no. You can't get away with being explicitly anti-gay. If you want to do Christian Websites, that's fine, but you can't do Anything-But-Gay Websites, because that's obviously pretextual. The majority was fine with Anything-But-Gay Websites.
The dissent in fact did imply that, but Sotomayor was being either disingenuous or naive when she said that. Public accommodations laws do not merely provide that one must complete a transaction with protected classes; they provide that one must treat protected classes equally.
A restaurant not only must seat (and serve) black customers and white customers; it must provide equivalent service to each. "Black people can come in and order food, but our waiters will yell racial epithets as they pass by the table and we'll provide them with such slow service that their food will be cold" will not pass muster. And "Gay people can come in and order a wedding website, but we'll only serve them a website that says 'Gay people's weddings aren't legitimate,'" would also not pass muster.
I think the dissent was serious here. The whole point of this whole thing is that food isn't speech.
Let's put it this way. If you had a restaurant whose schtick was "we yell racial epithets at you as we pass your table," that would be fine, as long as everyone got yelled at equally.
Similarly, if their schtick was "we inform all our restaurant patrons that gay people's weddings aren't legitimate," that would also be fine.
But you can't yell the epithets only at Black people, or not serve the gay people at all.
What about a restaurant that treats blacks fine, but has confederate flags and other memorabilia up? Do you think the "hostile work environment" should apply to public accommodations, too?
Yes.
I understand you've struggled with this since Friday, but it hasn't changed (seriously, this has been the precedent for decades). Perhaps you should review the history and precedent of public accommodation? Clearly this forum is insufficient to educate you on the topic.
I’m simply popping the dissent’s balloon, and mocking them cosplaying as Civil Rights marchers.
There are plenty of people who aren’t as aware as you are of the kabuki the dissenters are performing – not aware that this is about the right of consumers to buy products they “can’t use.”
(1) It’s not, that’s just you and your bad reading comprehension. Even your own examples are dumb: a Hallmark card that mentions thoughts and prayers doesn’t turn to ash in my hands, I can sign it and mail it off just fine. (2) So what if it was? The entire point of public accommodation laws is that while vendors choose what to offer, customers choose what to buy. That a customer can make a bad choice is implicit in that.
Randal: “I don’t see any way of reading Gorsuch’s opinion, for example, which doesn’t allow a photographer to have a “No Blacks” policy.”
Randal doesn’t understand anything because hew is a determined idiot. Obviously only certain photographs of blacks could involve expression protected by this precedent. Passport photos, e.g., would not be.
See Gorsuck's rebuke to Sotomayor’s diddent for more on what his opinion does NOT allow.
Queenie have helpfully provided a link to the opinion below it is easy to confirm what I recalled Gorsucks saying in this point:
“Instead of addressing the parties’ stipulations about the case actually before us, the dissent spends much of its time adrift on a sea of hypotheticals about photographers, stationers, and others, asking if they too provide expressive services covered by the First Amendment…. But those cases are not this case. Doubtless, determining what qualifies as expressive activity protected by the First Amendment can sometimes raise difficult questions. But this case presents no complication of that kind.”
The State did not fight this all the way to the Supreme Court. The State didn't choose to be sued in the district court. The State didn't choose for the plaintiffs to appeal to the Tenth Circuit. The State didn't choose for the plaintiffs to seek a writ of certiorari in the Supreme Court.
Courts exist for the benefit of plaintiffs; defendants have no need of them.
The state didn’t negotiate a settlement; it went up to the high court to defend the right to make business sell consumers products and services the consumer couldn’t use.
Not clear to me that a fag couple couldn't use this web designer's services if they could dictate what the message was.
Not if the group is a limited public forum (funded by the university) as it was in CLS. We can assume for the sake of argument the group discriminates on the basis of belief and not status and nonetheless the state may enforce an all-comer's policy that is viewpoint neutral.
In most anti-discrimination contexts, the claim is not for snowflake-level special privilege that is a bizarre two-way streets ('we can discriminate against everyone else, but no one can discriminate against us, because old-timey superstition') but instead merely for the same treatment others receive.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
I thought CLS activities were funded by their own contributions to a university fund for student activities. Is that not right? I heard it argued that the university was the entity that needed to take all comers.
"...the Court dismissed the idea that a Christian student group at a public university could legally exclude persons who engage in same-sex conduct. The Christian group maintained that it did not wish to exclude persons because of status but conduct: the group did not wish to endorse conduct it found objectionable on religious grounds. The Court dismissed that argument. In the context of LGBT rights, it wrote, discrimination based on conduct amounts to discrimination based on status..."
Right, and 303 doesn't change ANY of this, because none of that involves compelled speech! Nobody was forcing that religious group to express a position about the action they were being compelled to take.
Hiring, serving, or admitting somebody is conduct. Writing original content is speech.
You can make people DO things they don't want to, but just not SAY things they don't want to.
Christian Legal Association v. Martinez was a 5-4 decision where 2 of the justices in the majority – Ginsberg and Kennedy – have been replaced by Justices who appear more favorable to the rights of religious associations. Agree or not, there’s a good chance the case could be reversed if argued under the Court’s present composition.
That said, it’s a completely different case from 303 Creative. 303 Creative is a free speech case. Christian Legal Society involved a completely different legal theory. They argued student religious associations should have religious freedom rights similar to churches, which are indeed exempt from discrimination laws when they decide who their members and leaders are. The question of whether a religious student association is more like a general student association or more like a church is a totally different question from what 303 Creative decided.
Where did Gorsuch’s opinion say that Colorado has a compelling interest? The 10th Circuit said that. But the Supreme Court majority, as I read it, sidestepped the issue. The majority opinion says that the First Amendment trumps Colorado’s interest based on e.g. Hurley, without saying exactly what that interest is.
It's a Buddhist swastika.
Okay. Here's one that fits: a gay web designer would be forced to design a website for the Westboro Baptist Church protesting gay rights. Since religion is protected class and protesting gay rights is integral to this religion's practice, then to refuse to design the website is to discrminate against a protected class.
It is really ridiculous to believe--especially on matters of sex and religion--that one cannot distinguish between status and action.
Not in Colorado under existing Colorado law. But if the dissent had prevailed, Colorado could have passed (and enforced) laws protecting Nazis.
"Not in Colorado, Nazis aren’t a protected class there."
Could, if a state decided to protect political views, or under any number of scenarios.
That Elain Photography case in New Mexico that the SCOTUS refused to hear was premised on the same absurd concept.
It seems like all of a sudden we all had to accept and spend a whole month marching for other gay things like domestic violence, Monkey Pox, AIDS, blinding syphilis, super gonorrhea, MRSA, grooming, and child molestations.
Nope. According to the dissent, the gay web designer could have a “no anti-gay stuff” policy that applied across the board… including against Westboro Baptist. No problem. Just like this web designer could've had a "no anti-Christian stuff" policy and been just fine.
That’s the problem with this case. It was decided in terms of a manufactured and very strained hypothetical. (It’s not a situation that ever comes up in real life!) So it’s likely to result in some very bad law.
No. Because the web designer equally turns down anti-gay requests from religious and secular sources, no protected class is discriminated against.
Just like this web designer could’ve had a “no anti-Christian stuff” policy and been just fine.
Since Christianity doesn't believe in same-sex marriage (at least in some sects), then a same-sex marriage would be "anti-Christian stuff".
Which is...the entire point.
Yet, it basically did happen in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case.
And, in a case that I presume will be resolved via summary judgement against Colorado in light of 303 Creative, Colorado again weaponized CADA and went after Masterpiece Cakeshop’s owner Jack Phillips when he refused to make a birthday cake because the request was for a blue and pink cake – in context a clear message that the event was focusing on and celebrating the transgender aspect of the event (as opposed to, say, a baby shower where the expectant mother has elected not to know or reveal the gender of the baby so the organizer decides a pink and blue cake properly represents the wildcard nature of the birth).
I know that's the entire point. I'm making that entire point, as did the dissent.
The dissent wasn't arguing that this lady would have to make any gay websites. It was arguing that the case was stupid. In the real world, she would advertise her Christian-friendly wedding website design service and gays would stay away. And even if a gay came knocking, she'd point to her Christian-friendly policy and politely decline. No problemo. But then, no case, and without a case, how are all your peeps on the court going to demonstrate their anti-gay bona fides?
But isn't it true that in the real world, gay groups purposely go to Christian businesses to ask that they perform anti-Christian tasks just so they can be refused and then sue the businesses for the ultimate purpose of putting them out of business?
But then you have cases like Masterpiece Cakeshop, where a polite refusal led to a lawsuit, and near closure of the business.
This is an interesting bedtime story, but it's not the way the law works and not at all what the dissent was arguing.
Why do you think a gay man whose idea of "consummation" is the abuse of his digestive system deserves a "marriage" license?
Ha lol. I sort of wish it were. If that were true, the Supreme Court could’ve taken any number of those cases. But because there are zero such cases, they were forced to settle for a hypothetical.
The Masterpiece Cakeshop guys had arguably discriminated on status, not message. But they won in any case, so what're you worried about?
And then, it would be illegal for the Jewish baker to have a “No Nazis” policy.
But they can have a “No Anti-Jewish Symbols” policy.
So no, even if the dissent had prevailed and Colorado made Nazis a protected class, Jewish bakers would still not have to bake swastika cakes.
Dream on. That's what happened in the Elaine Photography case, for instance; The plaintiffs didn't settle on a wedding photographer until they'd confirmed Elaine wasn't willing to do the job.
Maybe the fact that he's been continually in court ever since, because every time he wins a case, a new person walks in making a new obnoxious demand?
"The Masterpiece Cakeshop guys had arguably discriminated..."
Point being, he tried a polite refusal, and as a result was sued nearly into oblivion. It's not like there weren't literally dozens of other options for people to go to.
In this case, apparently this woman was worried about being forced to make websites that she disagreed with, or being sued into oblivion. Like the Masterpiece Cakeshop nearly was.
Given the number of people who wrote briefs supporting the concept that she should be able to be sued into oblivion if she chose not to make a website she disagreed with....it looks like this was a wise choice she made.
Hey, I'm all for figuring out how to solve for harassment-via-lawsuit. But that's not really related to what we're talking about.
Maybe he should stop acting like a bigot.
In your delusional worldview, asking for a cake with one color for the crumb and another for the frosting is 'obnoxious.'
Because you're also a bigot.
Brett, making Jack Phillips expend his resources on the legal process(es) is the ultimate end goal. He is being made an example of, in front of us all. That is how it looks to me.
So, it happened once over 15 years ago.
I do think Elaine got screwed. That case would come out the other way now.
But one old case is hardly a trend.
Or Ingersoll v. Arlene’s Flowers
Or Baker v. Hands On Originals
The goal here is to force "compliance" and force people to violate their beliefs.
Hard no on Arlene's Flowers. They'd been long-time customers... that wasn't "gay groups purposely going to Christian business... for the ultimate purpose of putting them out of business."
Hands On Originals also appears to be a legitimate dispute, at least, I don't see any party claiming that it was a manufactured conflict. I agree that it shouldn't've been brought, but the T-Shirt people won anyway.
Well yeah, politely refusing gay people is illegal in Colorado, even if you're extremely polite. I didn't mean to suggest that being polite by itself gets you around public accommodations laws!
This is what you originally said
" In the real world, she would advertise her Christian-friendly wedding website design service and gays would stay away. And even if a gay came knocking, she’d point to her Christian-friendly policy and politely decline. No problemo. "
Now you say
"Well yeah, politely refusing gay people is illegal in Colorado, even if you’re extremely polite. I didn’t mean to suggest that being polite by itself gets you around public accommodations laws!"
Apparently you see there is a "problemo".... now.
Now you're starting to get it! In the first case, she doesn't offer the service that the customer is requesting. No problem there.
In the second case, she is offering the service, just not to gays.
Legal, illegal. Makes sense?
Doesn't quite work like that in practice. Because having a "Christian-friendly" bakery or wedding design business, then being asked to make custom designs or detailing which violate your Christian beliefs leads to the entire issue.
No it doesn't. Having an anti-gay bakery or wedding design business leads to this issue.
Website lady never even got asked to create a gay website. She made it up. Why wasn't her hypothetical, like, Satanist weddings or something else? Why's it always trying to deny services to gay people? That's the mystery... except it's not really much of a mystery, is it?
She was entitled to declaratory relief and she got some.
Boo-hoo for you.
No, they can't. Not if the dissent prevailed and then Colorado decided that it wanted to write a law that protected Nazis as a class, perhaps by protecting political speech generally. The dissent's position here is that the 1A simply isn't implicated in regulating commercial activities.
Face.
Huh? That's not the dissent's opinion at all. Its opinion is that the impact to speech is merely incidental because the service provider can define the services they provide. If a Jewish baker only provides cakes in non-offensive shapes, then their speech isn't burdened by being forced to cater to Nazis, because Nazis -- just like everyone else -- will be declined offensively-shaped cakes.
You seem to think you emitted a knee-slapping joke, but I'm not even sure what you mean.
Perhaps you're mocking some anti-government position you believe I hold? Otherwise I'm baffled as to your meaning.
A pink and blue cake! You seem not to realize how ridiculous you sound.
If she offered wedding celebration websites Colorado would inddeed have required her to “speak [the State’s] preferred message” to remain in that business without penalty.
But now Colorado can't.
You are an idiot, Randal. Right up there with Nige or Artie.
The ridiculousness of the request isn't Jack Phillips' fault.
The ridiculousness of everything you write here IS your fault, however.
I wouldn't think that even you couldn't be stupid enough to believe the things you say, but, no, the dissent says nothing like what you assert it says.