The Volokh Conspiracy
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9th Cir. Invalidates Oregon's Ban on Surreptitious Recordings of Conversations
From Project Veritas v. Schmidt, decided Monday by a Ninth Circuit panel in an opinion by Judge Sandra Ikuta, joined by Judge Carlos Bea:
Oregon law generally prohibits unannounced recordings of conversations, subject to several exceptions [including for recordings of law enforcement and for recording various crimes that endanger human lives]. We conclude that Oregon's law is a content-based restriction that violates the First Amendment right to free speech and is therefore invalid on its face….
"While the First Amendment literally forbids the abridgment only of speech, the Supreme Court has long recognized that its protection does not end at the spoken or written word." We have recognized there is no material "distinction between the process of creating a form of pure speech (such as writing or painting) and the product of these processes (the essay or artwork) in terms of the First Amendment protection afforded." Indeed, "we have never seriously questioned that the processes of writing words down on paper, painting a picture, and playing an instrument are purely expressive activities entitled to full First Amendment protection." …
Here, the state law at issue regulates individuals' conduct in making an audio or video recording. Under our case law [and that of other circuits], such conduct qualifies as speech entitled to the protection of the First Amendment….
Animal Legal Defense Fund v. Wasden (9th Cir. 2018) guides our analysis. After holding that the creation of audio and video recordings was speech entitled to full First Amendment protection, Wasden held that the Idaho statute at issue in that case, which required the facility owner's consent to make unannounced recordings of "the conduct of an agricultural production facility's operations," was "an 'obvious' example of a content-based regulation of speech because it 'defin[es] regulated speech by particular subject matter.'"
We gave two reasons for this conclusion. First, the statute drew "a distinction 'on its face' regarding the message the speaker conveys." Specifically, it "would permit filming a vineyard's art collection but not the winemaking operation." "Likewise, a videographer could record an after-hours birthday party among co-workers, a farmer's antique car collection, or a historic maple tree but not the animal abuse, feedlot operation, or slaughterhouse conditions." Second, we reasoned that "only by viewing the recording can the [state] authorities make a determination about criminal liability" because the application of the exception "explicitly pivots on the content of the recording."
Our second rationale (that a law regulating the act of making specified recordings is content based if state authorities cannot apply the law without viewing or listening to the particular recording at issue) requires some further examination. After we decided Wasden, the Supreme Court [in City of Austin v. Reagan National Advertising (2022)] rejected a per se rule "that a regulation cannot be content neutral if it requires reading the [speech] at issue." Instead, City of Austin held that location-based rules, such as a rule differentiating between signs on a premise that advertise an on-site business from signs that advertise some off-site matter, are not content based, even though city authorities had to review the sign's message to apply the rule. When a rule is merely a "location-based and content-agnostic on-/off-premises distinction," it does not "singl[e] out specific subject matter for differential treatment." Instead, the sign's message merely "informs the sign's relative location." But as the Court clarified, this exception for location-based rules does not affect the Court's longstanding holding that "regulations that discriminate based on the topic discussed or the idea or message expressed … are content based."
Wasden did not address a location-based rule akin to an "on-/off-premises distinction," but considered a rule that singled out "specific subject matter for differential treatment" and discriminated based on "the topic discussed or the idea or message expressed." As a result, City of Austin's analysis does not conflict with our holding in Wasden, which remains binding. Therefore, we continue to consider whether a law "pivots on the content of the recording," in determining whether the law discriminates on the basis of "the topic discussed or the idea or message expressed" and is, therefore, content based,.
Applying Wasden here, section 165.540 is a content-based restriction on speech. On its face, section 165.540(1)(c) and its exceptions draw a distinction between topics. The speech regulated by section 165.540(1)(c) is the act of making a recording, which means that the activity captured by a recording constitutes the content or subject matter of that speech. Because the rules imposed by section 165.540 vary depending on the activity being recorded, the statute clearly draws content-based distinctions under Wasden. The law's applicability plainly "pivots on the content of the recording"—namely, what the recording captures.
For example, the law applies no restrictions to recording law enforcement officials engaged in their official duties, but prohibits recording other government officials performing official duties unless they are informed that their conversation is being recorded. Similarly, the statute distinguishes between recording felonies endangering human lives, and recording similar conduct during the commission of a misdemeanor. These distinctions are "obvious" examples of a content-based regulation of speech because they "define regulated speech by particular subject matter." In addition, state "authorities [can] make a determination about criminal liability" under the law "only by viewing the recording." This serves as further evidence that the applicability of section 165.540(1)(c) pivots on the content of the recording, thereby demonstrating that the law is content based….
Because we conclude that section 165.540(1)(c) and its exceptions constitute a content-based speech restriction, we can uphold the statute only if it survives strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny requires the government to show that the speech restriction is "narrowly tailored to address the State's compelling governmental interests." …
[W]e must analyze Oregon's interest in conversational privacy as protecting people's conversational privacy from the speech of other individuals, even in places open to the public.
In general, the government does not have a compelling interest in protecting individual privacy against unwanted communications (including the "speech" comprised of recording others) in areas open to the public unless the audience's "substantial privacy interests are being invaded in an essentially intolerable manner." Courts have recognized such a compelling interest only when patients seeking medical care are bombarded by "the cacophony of political protests" and individuals at their homes are confronted with unwanted speech. The government's interest in protecting the public's privacy from unwanted speech (including recordings of people's conversations) "is far less important" for individuals engaging in recreational, social, or commercial activities in places open to the public, such as "strolling through Central Park" or "waiting in line or having lunch outdoors in a public park," Berger, 569 F.3d at 1054. Indeed, we have held that the government does not even have a "significant interest in protecting [individuals] from unpopular speech" where those who constitute the intended audience are commercial patrons of "a place of public entertainment." Applying this framework here, Oregon does not have a compelling interest in protecting individuals' conversational privacy from other individuals' protected speech in places open to the public, even if that protected speech consists of creating audio or visual recordings of other people….
Nor is Oregon's rule narrowly tailored to be "the least restrictive or least intrusive means of" achieving the government's interest in conversational privacy, as required to pass strict scrutiny review….
The law regulates protected speech to avoid impinging on people's conversational privacy. But in public places, speech does not intrude on privacy unless it intrudes in "an essentially intolerable manner." …
The dissent argues that [the cases we rely on] are inapplicable to section 165.540(1)(c) because "state action aimed at protecting people from unwanted commercial or political speech" is "qualitatively different" than state action protecting people "from speech-gathering activities like Project Veritas's … because they appropriate the speech of others." According to the dissent, the sort of speech that includes the "appropriation of another person's speech" (i.e., recordings) is qualitatively more burdensome than other types of speech that might intrude on a person's privacy.
This position is foreclosed by Wasden, which did not accord any special attention to the privacy interests of people whose speech might be recorded. Rather, Wasden held that a state law prohibiting audio or video recordings of the conduct of an agricultural production facility's operations, which necessarily would include conversations, directions, and other forms of oral communications, "suppresse[d] more speech than necessary to further Idaho's stated goals of protecting property and privacy." Wasden's analysis of recordings under the same framework applicable to other sorts of protected speech is consistent with precedent: for example, under our case law, we analyze expressive conduct that merits First Amendment protection as symbolic speech in the same manner as we analyze oral communications.
Finally, as in Wasden, the rule is not narrowly tailored because "there are various other laws at [Oregon's] disposal that would allow it to achieve its stated interests while burdening little or no speech." Individuals whose conversation is captured in public by unannounced recordings "can vindicate their rights" through an invasion of privacy tort. Or if the recording is fabricated, "the victims can turn to defamation actions for recourse."…
The majority also held that, even if the exceptions to § 165.540(1)(c) could be "severed" by declaring them unconstitutional and analyzing just an exception-less version of the section, that wouldn't save the section from invalidation:
Assuming that section 165.540(1)(c), considered by itself, is content neutral, it can be "saved" as constitutional if it qualifies as a valid time, place, or manner restriction. Such a restriction must (1) be content neutral, (2) survive intermediate scrutiny review, and (3) "leave open ample alternative channels for communication of the information." Hoye v. City of Oakland, 653 F.3d 835, 844 (9th Cir. 2011) (citing Rock Against Racism, 491 U.S. at 791, 109 S.Ct. 2746); see also Regan v. Time, Inc., 468 U.S. 641, 648, 104 S.Ct. 3262, 82 L.Ed.2d 487 (1984). Assuming that section 165.540(1)(c) would be content neutral if it were a stand-alone provision and would survive intermediate scrutiny review, we conclude it does not satisfy the third requirement….
In light of [the Supreme Court's precedent on] what case law requires for a speech restriction to leave open ample alternative channels for communication, it is clear that section 165.540(1)(c) does not meet the mark. It functions as "an absolute prohibition on a particular type of expression"—the creation of unannounced audiovisual recordings. Though section 165.540(1)(c) allows individuals to record conversations where participants are "specifically informed that their conversation is being obtained," such notification would effectively destroy the intended content of the recording. The subject matter of unannounced recordings is the subjects' candid responses to issues of controversy. Because the protected speech is the recording of subjects' unfiltered responses, a rule that requires the person creating the recording to provide notice extinguishes that speech. In other words, creating announced recordings is not an adequate alternative channel of speech for creating unannounced recordings.
Nor does after-the-fact reporting of an undercover interview or encounter provide an adequate alternative method of communication. Audiovisual recording is a unique medium of communication. It captures in real time both the sounds and sights of an event, making it more trustworthy and persuasive—and thus having vastly greater impact—than post-hoc written or oral accounts…. Audiovisual recordings are also unique because they can readily be disseminated to a wider audience when incorporated into news programming….
Judge Morgan Christen dissented; here's a short excerpt—read the whole opinion for more (and see also more of the majority opinion, which I've likewise trimmed down considerably):
"The right to speak and publish does not carry with it the unrestrained right to gather information."
When it adopted Oregon Revised Statutes section 165.540(1)(c), the Oregon legislature required that notice must be given before in-person oral conversations may be recorded. With this statute, the legislature ensured that Oregonians would be free to engage in the "uninhibited exchange of ideas and information," without fear that their words could be broadcast beyond their intended audience, appear on the evening news, or worse, be manipulated and shared across the internet devoid of relevant context….
Because the majority does not dispute that the State has a significant interest in protecting the privacy of Oregonians who engage in conversations without notice that their comments are being recorded, our court's analysis should be straightforward. First, principles of federalism require that we begin from a premise of reluctance to strike down a state statute. Next, following Supreme Court precedent, we should sever the two statutory exceptions that Project Veritas challenges, apply intermediate scrutiny to the content-neutral remainder, recognize that the statute is well-tailored to meet Oregon's significant interest, and uphold section 165.540(1)(c) as a reasonable time, place, or manner restriction….
[U]nlike writing a book or painting a picture, recording a conversation involves the appropriation of others' speech. To be clear, I agree that Project Veritas's act of creating a recording is protected speech, but it is important to recognize that the type of speech Project Veritas plans to engage in—unannounced in-person recordings of oral conversations—infringes upon other speakers' competing interest in conversational privacy. That competing interest plays a critical role when we assess whether the State's time, place, or manner restriction is reasonable and sufficiently tailored to the State's significant interest.
Project Veritas argues that the dangerous-felony exception and the law-enforcement exception are both content based, rendering all of section 165.540(1)(c) content based. For purposes of this analysis, I assume this is correct. Content-based restrictions on speech are subject to strict scrutiny, and Oregon does not argue that section 165.540(1)(c) can satisfy that heightened standard. But even assuming that section 165.540(1)(c) fails strict scrutiny if the two challenged exceptions are considered, the question we should ask next is whether the two statutory exceptions are severable….
["]One who invites another to his home or office takes a risk that the visitor may not be what he seems, and that the visitor may repeat all he hears and observes when he leaves. But he does not and should not be required to take the risk that what is heard and seen will be transmitted by photograph or recording, or in our modern world, in full living color and hi-fi to the public at large or to any segment of it that the visitor may select. A different rule could have a most pernicious effect upon the dignity of man and it would surely lead to guarded conversations and conduct where candor is most valued ….["] This rationale is not limited to conversations within private residences …. The secret recording of speech is far more destructive to one's privacy than merely having oral communications heard and repeated….
Section 165.540(1)(c) also leaves open ample alternative channels of communication for Project Veritas to engage in investigative journalism and to communicate its message. It is well-settled that an alternative channel need not be ideal, but merely adequate….
Project Veritas retains ample alternative means of engaging in investigative journalism and expressing its message. It can employ all the tools of traditional investigative reporting, including but not limited to talking with whistleblowers and other inside sources, crowd-sourcing information, researching public records, taking photographs and recording videos that do not capture oral conversations, and using Oregon's freedom-of-information laws. It can also openly record during public and semi-public meetings and events, Or. Rev. Stat. § 165.540(6)(a)(A), and, in other settings, provide notice that it is recording without announcing that it is engaging in investigative journalism. These many approaches to traditional investigative reporting satisfy the alternative-channels requirement….
Benjamin Barr and Stephen Klein of Barr & Klein PLLC represent Project Veritas.
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So now we move from a right to record the government, based on the concept that government is inherently public and citizens have a right to know anout it, to a general right ro record others.
What next? Laws against voyeurs get struck down because inquiring minds have a right to know?
It seems strange how privacy isn’t even a consideration. The overconstitutionalization of all of life’s decision-making means that purist ideological considerations, and judges’ cultural expectations, triumph over ordinary people, who get less and less say in how their lives are to be lived.
Judges demand people have a right to enter others’ bathrooms. Now they start a line of reasoning that, if privacy really doesn’t rate as a constitutional consideration (as this judge in fact says), can only lead to a constitutional right to put hidden cameras in peoples’ bedrooms and poke up their skirts.
"a general right to record others."
I don't think it sweeps that broadly. It is more a general right to record what others do in public. If you want your right to privacy to be respected, then keep your activity private. If I go to a public park, or engage in a public protest, then any claims I make of "privacy" are self-contradictory and not worth much weight, IMO.
Yeah, I don't get the logic. It's legal to record an art gallery at a vineyard therefore it's ok to record a confidential process?
Why is it legal to record the art gallery? Does the art gallery invite the public? Can they make the invitation conditional on not recording it?
This makes no sense.
Likewise the law allowing the recording of "dangerous crimes" or whatever was also nonsense. How do I know what I'm about to record *before* I hit record? What if I guess wrong? Can I be sanctioned for hitting record *after* the crime has already occurred and accidentally recording them discussing a football game?
"Can they make the invitation conditional on not recording it?"
Some do. The Boston version of the Computer Museum prohibited photography of a Star Wars prop. Outside of art galleries and museums, Project Veritas or its members got sued for recording in violation of a confidentiality agreement. I think the case was covered on this blog.
“So now we move from a right to record the government, based on the concept that government is inherently public and citizens have a right to know anout(sic) it, to a general right ro(sic) record others.”
Nice strawman you’ve put up there. No, O’Keefe’s right to record Planned Parenthood’s offers to sell baby parts was not justified on the grounds that the conversation was inherently public. That PP was receiving government assistance to keep it in business was sufficient. And Oregon’s law DID NOT allow recording of most government actors making embarrassing admissions on matters of genuine public concern.
"Project Veritas retains ample alternative means of engaging in investigative journalism and expressing its message. It can employ all the tools of traditional investigative reporting,"
I'm pretty sure that surreptitious recording of conversations IS a tool of traditional investigative reporting.
The dissent is completely unconvincing about the adequacy of the alternatives to surreptitious recording. The dissent says the alternatives ~"don't have to be perfect", but that is dishonesty on stilts. Had O'Keefe merely asserted that Planned Parenthood had discussed selling baby parts the resultant muffled speech would have been impact-free.
As I read this, the issue is content neutrality -- if the cops can record, then anyone can.
Makes sense to me.
Yeah. I’ve always found the notion that you’d be allowed to hear something, but not legally entitled to have proof you’d heard it, kind of dubious. Absent prior agreement, of course; I’ve signed plenty of NDA’s in my time. And keeping in mind that being legally entitled to do something, and doing it being prudential, are two completely different things.
I believe that we are currently in a transition from a social norm of privacy, to a social norm of mutual proof; That we’re going to eventually end up with no expectation of privacy when interacting with another person, but instead an expectation that all parties will retain proof of what actually happened.
This is being driven by ubiquitous recording, effectively unlimited storage, and the need to be able to refute allegations of wrongdoing. You can’t have a system where an allegation that you did something in private is legally consequential, AND where you aren’t allowed to retain records of what actually happened.
The law will lag, but it WILL follow that changing norm.
The real issue will be college hookups and consent.
Girls Gone Wild will be a legal defense firm.
Not remotely "the".
Pretty major "A", then, given the current trend in accusing people of rape at an unspecified place and time decades ago. Basically the only defense is to be able to prove either that you were out of the country for several years, or "And here's a video recording of what actually happened".
You're not convincing me. That sort of legal abuse isn't going to be significantly addressed by surreptitious recordings. What O'Keefe does (and Project Veritas used to do) is much more on point.
"For example, the law applies no restrictions to recording law enforcement officials engaged in their official duties . . . . "
Good to see the 9th records their sessions and makes them available.
https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/
The quotation indicates Judge Christen expressly mentioned the right-wing lawyers who represented one side (the disgraced Project Veritas); I am skeptical.
EV put the end-blocknote tag in the wrong place and Artie thinks he has a gotcha.
So sad to be Artie.
When I was a reporter and editor, I welcomed questions concerning apparent errors.
Nobody is complaining about your pointing out the error.
It your pathetic pose as someone who "thinks he has a gotcha" that was derided.
Judge Kozinski must be glad he was able to get many years on the bench in before the Ninth Circuit authorized anyone to arrange surreptitious recordings of the antics in the Kozinski chambers.
It's actually Judge Morgan Christen's defense of the indefensible that give us reason to think there are antics going on that she doesn't want revealed.
Do you wish there were publicly available recordings of the discussions that led to the Volokh Conspiracy becoming an odds-defyingly white, remarkably male blog?
Since there is no reason to think the Volokh Conspiracy is either odds-defyingly white nor remarkably male your question is as senseless as you are.
What are the odds that anything other than an intentional focus on choosing males (and avoiding females) would generate the current content mix at the Volokh Conspiracy.
What is the chance that anything other than an intentional focus on choosing whites (and avoiding others) would generate the current content mix at the Volokh Conspiracy.
These questions are intended to relate to modern America, and legal academia in modern America, not to the America of the 1950s and conservative dreams.
And Judge Reinhardt.
If Judge Reinhardt engaged in wrongdoing he should be held accountable -- a point that would, no doubt, be highlighted (rather than hidden) by the Volokh Conspiracy.
He did and he was.
If the Volokh Conspiracy reported on Judge Reinhardt's misconduct, Judge Reinhardt was treated differently from at least one other circuit judge in similar circumstances.
Five years ago I would have said I support an absolute right to record. A couple of things have happened in the interim that have made me reconsider; I still support the right to record but with some reluctance.
First, Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn't. Second is the ability of computer programs to generate false conversations that never actually happened.
So if there's going to be a right to record, I think there also needs to be some kind of safety mechanism in place so that we actually end up with honest recordings that give the full context. What exactly that would look like in actual practice I'm not sure.
So, the MSM would have massive problems, given that they popularized the technique. And O'Keefe does not have a history of distorting what people said.
Damikesc, did you happen to notice that the liberals here are the ones saying this is a problem that needs to be fixed, and the conservatives are the ones engaging in what aboutism, as if that solved the problem? It's really telling who is having which reaction.
What you're describing as "whataboutism" is our not seeing a problem in need of being fixed.
Put in the simplest terms, you're free to say that Bob stinks, but if you want Bob, and only Bob, to be forced to take a shower, it's perfectly legitimate to point out that Sue, George, and Kaden all have serious cases of BO, too, and why aren't you interested in dowsing them with water?
Maybe because you've just got it in for Bob?
Or maybe, on closer examination, Bob’s facts are only superficially similar to the others. Maybe the others shower without being told to and Bob is the only one who refuses. Maybe Bob is on his way to a formal dinner party and the others are having pizza at home by themselves. Maybe Bob works in an office in close quarters with other employees and the other three all work at home (in their underwear). The mere fact that they all stink, without more, does not mean that their situations are the same. So, instead of me having it in for Bob, maybe you are trying to protect Bob and go making up whataboutism that isn’t even on point. Come to think of it, most of your whataboutism isn’t even on point.
And said closer examination only happens once you've given up on shouting "Whataboutism", since the whole point of shouting it is to prevent that comparison from happening.
But you repeatedly make comparisons that have little to do with one another. I’ve been reading your stuff long enough to know that any time someone points to a bad act by a Republican, you will immediately knee-jerk about some Democrat, and most of the time your comparisons fall apart once the comparison is actually looked at. But don’t let that deter you.
And even if the comparison is on point, it’s a distraction. Suppose I am a prosecutor trying to send Ted Bundy to death row. You chime up “well, what about Charles Manson, he killed a lot of people too.” Which he did, but it’s a totally irrelevant distraction if it’s Ted Bundy who’s on trial. If Project Veritas is guilty as charged, then it simply doesn’t matter what anyone else did; they’re still guilty. Doesn’t mean you can’t start a thread about those other people (on which what-abouting Project Veritas would be just as irrelevant); it means that for purposes of this thread, it’s an irrelevant hijack.
But Project Veritas isn't guilty of doing anything wrong, or you wouldn't be yakking at such length trying to distract us from that fact by going on so gaseously about why your lack of consistency ought not be pointed out.
They are; they selectively edited quotes to make it appear that people had said things they actually hadn't. I understand why *you* might not see anything wrong with that.
‘but if you want Bob, and only Bob, to be forced to take a shower,’
‘Mom, why shoud I take a shower when there are other smelly people out there?’
Yeah, that’s about the level of argument you're at.
If the other smelly people are your brothers and sisters, and they smell worse, and they’ve been smelling worse for years without ever being told to shower by Mom, then it’s a reasonable argument for Bob to ask why he’s being singled out for special treatment.
Because Mom’s focus on Bob and how he smells suggests that she doesn’t think her children being smelly is problem in general. Just Bob. Why would that be ?
The disaffected, bigoted, right-wing perspective is always presented at -- and welcomed by -- the Volokh Conspiracy.
"First, Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn’t. Second is the ability of computer programs to generate false conversations that never actually happened."
PV is not the only one that has done this. Many media have been caught doing this. When there is a voluntary interview, one can insist on a contract that gives you the right to a copy of a full recording of the interview. Which the media does not always agree to. But that is some protection.
Perhaps something along those lines could be enacted as a statute, but there might be First Amendment issues with that.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will) but I believe Project Veritas always made the full unedited recordings available on their website.
Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure someone will) but I believe Project Veritas always made the full unedited recordings available on their website.
Assuming for the moment that this is true, it could still pose a problem.
I could post a selectively edited video on Twitter that makes someone appear to say something racist when context is stripped away. That goes viral and everyone starts jumping on that person for being racist. I also have the unedited video on my main website. Someone will eventually see that whole video and call me out for the hit job, but will all of the damage be undone? Will the fact check get as much notice and as many clicks as the original tweet?
It would be even less likely to correct the misleading nature of the original edit if it is not immediately obvious how the context changes things. It often takes more time and effort to correct a false impression than it does to form the false impression. And not everyone will make that effort.
That is all true. All the same, those who publish allegedly deceptively edited material AND the unedited whole, are in a different position from those who only publish the allegedly deceptively edited material.
They get points for allowing conscientious observers, who are no doubt the minority, to form their own judgement about the fairness of the editing.
PV is not the only one that has done this.
This here is a fallacy.
NO, it’s not.
"NBC News fired a producer in 2012 who worked on a "Today" segment that featured a heavily edited 911 recording in which George Zimmerman appeared to racially profile Trayvon Martin, according to The New York Times.
The edited version of the call that aired on "Today" clearly made Zimmerman appear to say Martin looked dangerous because of his race.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good … he looks Black," Zimmerman says in the version of the tape that aired.
In the unedited version of the call, however, Zimmerman answers a question about Martin's race only after being specifically asked by the 911 dispatcher.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or like he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman said, without referring to Martin's race.
Only after the 911 dispatcher asks "black, white or Hispanic?" did Zimmerman reply "He looks Black."
It is; it's the fallacy of tu quoque, otherwise known as what aboutism.
Well, no. When you claimed "[f]ive years ago I would have said I support an absolute right to record" but that you've changed your mind since then because "Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn’t," showing that this was a common practice more than 5 years ago is not tu quoque at all. It's simply showing that the supposed reason for your change of heart is actually grounded in your dislike for this particular actor, not the act.
Even if it was common practice 5 years ago, Krycheck_2 just now learning about it and it effecting his opinions is a fine way to be.
If common practice equally supported his change of heart, he (and you) wouldn't be trying to hide behind tu quoque when common practice is mentioned.
I have a certain sympathy here. Lefties are often woefully ignorant of the hit tactics the lefty press has been using against GOP folk, conservatives, righties etc for a long time.
Deceptive editing such as :
GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, “Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God.” Are we fighting a holy war?
PALIN: You know, I don’t know if that was my exact quote.
GIBSON: Exact words.
Rubbing it in by insisting that the deceptively edited quote was her “exact words.”
Jesus that's a deep cut. You're still salty about some Palin interview from...2008?
Seems you're more into pointing left than advocating for reform?
How quickly you have forgotten your own remark :
Even if [sic} it was common practice 5 years ago
No, it's been common practice for at least 15 years, and yet it comes as news to you and Krycheck. Underlining my point that you lefties don't get out much.
As to reform, I have no ideas on how to prevent deceptive editing by any kind of official reform. Other than when deceptive editing eases within the bounds of the laws of defamation, official action would seem to be proscribed by the 1st Amendment. (Which is, of course, a good thing.)
I suppose we could hope for a groundswell of public outrage, engendering a sense of shame in the media, but I look for a flying pig to shred itself on a wind turbine and drop into my frying pan long before either of those things happen.
Project Veritas is the actor directly connected to this particular court decision, so it's not unreasonable to single out PV's conduct, even if there are other people who also did the same thing.
Again, had you just singled them out as an example, you wouldn't have immediately cried tu quoque when other examples were mentioned.
I didn't immediately cry tu quoque; I responded to Mr. Bumble's claim that it wasn't a logical fallacy. And, again, the reason they were singled out is that it was their conduct that led to the decision in question. If you don't understand that I can't help you.
Yes, by declaring BL's observation to be tu quoque. You were the first one to apply that label, as the thread clearly shows.
The thread also clearly shows that PV was singled out because they were the subject of the court ruling that's the subject of this thread.
Others can speak for themselves, but tu quoque is only a fallacy if you assert that the fact that others do it means there is nothing wrong with doing it.
The implication of some posters here is that the practice of deceptive editing is unique to PV. It's not, and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.
Furthermore, in other contexts, tu quoque or whataboutism is a legitimate argument about double standards. If you complain about something your opponent has done which you yourself routinely do, then it is a fair criticism that you are trying to impose double standards.
I agree that deceptive editing, whether video recordings, audio recordings, or print, are a serious problem. I wish courts in defamation cases would take it more seriously, but they don't seem to.
The implication of some posters here is that the practice of deceptive editing is unique to PV.
That is you picking a new thesis to fight about.
As it was written, you were arguing against Krycheck's position via tu quoque. If you agreed with Krycheck's opinion but had a secret other thesis you were putting forth/arguing against, you should make that clear.
It's not tu quoque: Bored Lawyer would need to be trying to discredit your argument by virtue of your own personal actions. Even to be whataboutism he would need to suggest that there's not any issues with Project Veritas selectively editing because news media in general does it. Instead, I think it's pretty clear he agrees that it's a problem but that you are incorrectly trying to pin that problem on one actor when it is a general issue.
"This actor did something wrong."
"Other people do it wrong so it's not an issue." <- whataboutism
"You do it wrong so it's not an issue." <- tu quoque
"It's a general issue but there are ways to address it." <- neither
Yes and no. My "you do it wrong so it's not an issue" was a reference to complaints directed to the main stream media, not the authors of comments here. I probably should have made that clear.
So it's not an issue unless you're going to say it's an issue with the mainstream media, too, not just PV.
Only if you ignore the other half of what I said.
“This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks Black”
I bet Zimmerman said "black", not "Black".
"First, Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn’t. "
Even were this the case, they wouldn't be departing from standard investigative journalism practice. Taking things out of context is standard journalism today, and if it's an actual complete quoted sentence, they're doing good. How often do you see purported "quotes" that are just paraphrases with a few words the subject actually uttered inside quotation marks? It happens more often than not!
Assuming that is in fact standard journalistic practice, and I'm not sure it is, all you've done is prove my point. If everyone is doing it, there is an even greater need to protect against it than if it's just a few rogue journalists.
Which is a really convenient way to just go after the target at hand, pretending that you're leading the charge for a general cause, and then just... not bothering in other cases.
I see zero sign Krycheck is engaging in special pleading here.
People who aren't engaged in special pleading or use of a double standard have no need of the term "whataboutism"; If they're complaining that Bob's shit stinks, and you point out that so does everybody else's, they'll just agree, not demand that you refrain from pointing it out.
Project Veritas is the actor whose conduct led to the specific decision under discussion, so it’s not unreasonable to single out PV’s conduct. That is, after all, what ultimately led to the court decision. Would it be unreasonable to single out Hunter Biden’s conduct in a thread discussing his criminal charges? Nope, and it still wouldn’t be unreasonable even if a Hunter partisan showed up here with a list of a thousand other people who did the same thing.
And if Bob's shit happens to be a problem that needs addressing, pointing out the so does everyone else's is simply a way to detract attention away from Bob.
Still just an excuse for pretending that PV is doing something different from other investigative journalism outlets, when they're not, unless maybe it's their releasing the raw recording.
The only difference is who they do it to.
Yes, I know, you've convinced yourself of that. In your mind, liberals are incapable of ever acting in good faith.
The liberals here seem open to broad reforms on this issue, not just dinging PV.
You can't seem to handle that.
But their eyes have only been opened to the “need for reform” when their enemy is alleged to be guilty of the complained of offense. Your reaction to me pointing out how long your media friends have been doing this to your enemies was an exasperated shrug. There’s every reason to doubt that you really believe that deceptive editing is a serious problem, because you’re capable of ignoring its ubiquity for years and years, and only piping up when your own ox gets gored.
Krychek : Project Veritas is the actor whose conduct led to the specific decision under discussion, so it’s not unreasonable to single out PV’s conduct. That is, after all, what ultimately led to the court decision.
This turns out not to be the case. Project Veritas is the actor who sued the Oregon authorities to have their law declared unconstitutional. PVs own conduct was not on trial and the case had the square root of diddley squat to do with deceptive editing. It was about the constitutionality of Oregon's law against surreptitious recording.
You are the fellow who brought up the subject of deceptive editing. Your bringing up of the issue is perfectly reasonable, since you advanced the problem of deceptive editing as your reason for having reservations about the "right to record." (Though deceptive editing would be the same issue, whether the recording was surreptitious or not.)
You explained that your view had changed over the last five years from Mr Libertarian on the issue of recording, to Mr Not So Libertarian, because of two things.
1. Project Veritas's alleged penchant for deceptive editing
2. Technological advance making fakery in recordings easier and more convincing
The second is of course a wide, sweeping general reason. The first is not. It's a tiny particular reason, referring to a tiny particular actor whose bandwidth is little greater than your own. PV of itself can't be a reason for getting scared about anything. It like being scared of gnats. Or of one gnat. But it's one of two factors in you changing your mind. (And as noted, the case in question has absolutely nothing to do with any allegation of deceptive editing by PV. )
So your reason number 1 is silly. If your reason number 1 was that deceptive editing by media organisations generally (and of course political campaigns) was a yuuuge problem, but one you've only noticed in the past 5 years, fine.
It's good that allegations against a tiny right wing media gnat have woken you up. But bad that you don't appreciate that squishing media gnats is not a problem worth solving. If there's a problem it lies in the folk with the big bandwidth, who are all, or all to the nearest decimal point, the folk who print the stories you like to read.
As I say, you really do need to get out more. This had been standard media practice for at least 10 years before the start of your 5 year learning process.
Of course you're trying to change the subject from the exceptional and all-ecompassing stink of Bob's shit by appealing to the undeniable but useless fact that in general, shit does stink.
We have defamation law. Project Veritas has been sued for defamation.
I was particularly upset by their treatment of Mr. Simpson: https://youtu.be/U_yJ4QhrAaM?t=119
Now that's funny.
"Five years ago I would have said I support an absolute right to record. A couple of things have happened in the interim that have made me reconsider; I still support the right to record but with some reluctance.
First, Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn’t. "
This used to be a common refrain cops used to make about recording their on-duty activities. It didn't fly then, and it shouldn't fly against Project Veritas.
Is Project Veritas a public employee performing their governmental duties?
You seem...let's be kind and just call it 'confused.'
It is you, Shirley, who is confused.
The cops in TIP's remark are the ones being recorded. They are record-ees
Project Veritas is a record-er.
"First, Project Veritas has the habit of heavily editing its tapes to frequently make its subjects appear to have said things they really didn’t. Second is the ability of computer programs to generate false conversations that never actually happened."
This slur is a constructive falsehood. O'Keefe generally (perhaps invariably) released his videos in unedited form to document what he had done. The journalistic videos he produced used excerpts in a perfectly normal way.
Btw, Project Veritas has recently committed seppuku, Bushite agents having taken over and pushed out O'Keefe.
If it's a constructive falsehood, why did they get sued for defamation?
"If it’s a constructive falsehood, why did they get sued for defamation?"
That is an excessively stupid question. Getting sued isn't evidence that you've engaged in any wrongdoing.
Construct a better question and ask IT.
It is if you lose the lawsuit; google "Project Veritas defamation lawsuit" and see what pops up.
And even if it had been a stupid question, your stupid comment deserved it.
There is a lot going on here, and I'll admit to a quick read of this article and not the whole opinion. This is thus just a quick take on my part.
The argument seems to be that someone can gain entry onto your property under false pretenses, record video and audio while on that property without your knowledge, and then broadcast selectively edited portions of those recordings in an attempt to tarnish your reputation and all of that is protected free speech. As the person targeted in this way, you would have little success in countering it. The recordings are true on their face, so defamation claims would be extremely unlikely to even get to trial. Arguing that the editing makes something true turn into something false would be hard to make stick, I would think. I wouldn't expect you'd even have any way to demand a copy of the full, unedited recordings. Any commentary that the 'investigative journalist' tacked on would likely be phrased well enough as opinion to not fall under any defamation claims either.
I'm not sure how to deal with this. What I just described seems intuitively wrong, but I also wouldn't want to stifle what could be argued is genuinely investigative journalism in the public interest. It is always best understood that protecting everyone's freedom of speech comes at the cost of assholes being free to speak as well. But their freedom to speak in public places is mitigated by my ability to go to a different place where I don't have to listen to them, as well as my equal ability to speak against what they say.
This situation is different, though, because it also involves people's expectation of privacy on their own property. Recording a conversation or taking video of what occurs is not speech. As the dissent points out, the right to speech does not mean an unrestricted right to gather information.
This is like the "ag gag" laws.
An ag-gag law as having at least one of the following three elements: 1) a prohibition against photography, video recording or other document collection; 2) a prohibition against “misrepresenting oneself in order to gain access to an animal agriculture facility”; and 3) requiring individuals to report animal cruelty to authorities within a short time period of witnessing the event.
Ag-gag laws have been found to violate the First Amendment thanks to the limits placed on free speech of public concern. The laws have also been described as targeting particular political groups of people — animal rights or environmental activists — which is why some legal experts argue these laws violate the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution.
https://sentientmedia.org/ag-gag-laws/
What is all this "private property" bullshit? The Oregon law wasn't directed only to recordings on private property.
Not that Planned Parenthood should have been protected from revelations of what they said merely because the recordings took place in their offices.
I've not read every page either, but the opinion seems to clearly enough limit its basis for unconstitutionality to the prohibitions on secret recordings in places open to the public, e.g., pp. 24-30 (consistently cabining analysis to "public places," "places open to the public," etc.)
So it seems to leave a clear avenue open to the legislature to rewrite the law to prohibit secret recordings on private property.
1) I hate the phrase "selectively edited." All editing is selective. That's the point!
2) It's not protected speech to broadcast an unfairly edited recording that paints someone in a false light. (Subject to all the typical defamation defenses, such as actual malice, etc.)
The correct phrase is deceptive editing.
And while false light editing is, in theory, actionable, recent cases seem to indicate that it will generally not be taken seriously by courts. Which is too bad, as if anything, deceptive editing is worse than just making up lies, in that it has more credibility, given that the person's own recorded words are being used.
Good lord, what a stupid decision. Requiring consent before being recorded is not a "content-based regulation". Yes, it will be helpful to watch the video to see if consent was obtained - and nothing in the law forbids that. That act does not automatically make the viewing into an act of viewpoint discrimination.
But let's take the Court's decision at face value. Let's start recording those justices and their families at all hours in all places (including their chambers) and see how they like it.
Good point.
When is the Supreme Court (or any court) going to provide recordings (or transcripts) of its discussions concerning ethics issues, or its deliberations and voting meetings?
These two judges are not the Ninth Circuit's best or brightest -- perhaps their work will be reviewed by others.
Tiny-brained Artie wouldn't know a good point if he sat on one with that part of his anatomy which he can't find with both hands and a map.
You cannot be taken seriously if you can't come up with a better strawman than that. The decision does not authorize "recording... at all hours in all places".
No discussion of the ADA?
When and where can a person with a deficient memory record as a memory aid?
When and where can a person with a deficient memory not record as a memory aid?
Since most people recording don't have that problem, why should the ADA be discussed?
The ADA would NEVER be discussed if "most people" qualifying for protection under it were a criteria for doing so.
Courts are much more willing to take a hypothetical case when the First Amendment is involved. To invoke the ADA you probably need a real case.
"Sunlight is the best disinfectant." (Louis Brandeis)
Plaintiffs sought relief against the state Attorney General, which by the odd customs of civil rights law obliges state courts to respect the federal district court decision. In Massachusetts we had, and may still have, conflicting decisions from state and federal courts on the legality of covertly recording police in public. The state Supreme Court says there is no "reasonable expectation of privacy" element and you can be convicted for recording police doing their job on the street. The First Circuit says police doing their job in a public place can be recorded. At least the first time this came up the Attorney General was not a named defendant. Precedent but no injunction. If I am convicted under state law of a recording the First Circuit says is constitutionally protected, the First Circuit decision does not help. Under the AEDPA only Supreme Court decisions can get you a writ of habeas corpus. If I am arrested but not convicted, I can go off to federal court where the precedent ought to be enough to overcome qualified immunity.
Here is one person who did not want to be recorded in public:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/99CsoOHPFNI
Is preventing hysteria a compelling state interest? LOL.
Even funnier.
If only this decision had come before People v. Otto (1992) 2 Cal.4th 1088. A man recorded (on his phone) conversations between his wife and her lover, in which they discuss the husband's murder -- and within 48 hours he is dead. But the conversation is excluded from the murder prosecution as unlawfully recorded evidence.
Wow, that's really incriminating. [/sarc]
Another cool story:
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/26/479655743/manipulative-editing-reflects-poorly-on-couric-and-her-gun-documentary
Project veritas always provided the raw footage so they could see it all.
Sure they are going to release an edited version with the snap and snazzle, but as far as I'm aware they also provide the raw unedited footage so you can see it all in context.
The MSM doesn't do that which is why people started insisting on bringing their own cameras so they would have a complete record for context.
Possibly I might have been more impressed if all those "See what you think:"s and "Here it is:"'s had been accompanied by, you know, actual links or video. It it a paywall thing?
Understand, that when I say he appears to be engaged in ordinary investigative journalism, (Aside from his going after targets most journalists are trying to protect, instead.) that's not a complete endorsement of what he does. Ordinary investigative journalism can be pretty scummy at times. O'Keefe does not appear to me to be scummier than the rest.
The point being that without "surreptitious recording" Couric's deceptive editing would have gone unrebutted.
What is certainly true of O’Keefe is that he has a microscopic footprint compared to ABC, NBC, CBS, BBC, AP, CNN, NYT, WP, Bloomberg, and so on.
So demands for urgent reform to deal with a couple of gnats when large bands of hyenas have been roaming the land for decades seem somewhat peculiar.