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World Refugee Day is a Good Time to Consider Expanding the Ridiculously Narrow Legal Definition of "Refugee"
The definition excludes a vast range of people fleeing horrific violence and oppression.
Today is World Refugee Day. It's an appropriate time to remember the millions of refugees around the world. The refugee situation this year is even worse than usual, exacerbated by Russia's ongoing war of aggression against Ukraine, and the oppression inflicted by Venezuela's socialist government, each of which has led some 7 million people to flee.
In ordinary language, we use the term "refugee" to refer to anyone fleeing severe violence or oppression. But the legal definition of the term is far narrower, excluding many people fleeing truly horrific conditions. Only those meeting the narrow legal definition are entitled to refuge without threat of deportation under international law and the domestic law of most liberal democracies, including the US.
I wrote about the need to expand the legal definition on this date last year, and the issue is just as urgent today. Here is an excerpt (the original post goes into greater detail, and addresses a number of potential counterarguments):
The 1951 Refugee Convention (as later amended) bars governments from deporting refugees, defined as people whose "life or freedom would be threatened on account of [their] race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion." US law has a very similar definition.
This definition excludes vast numbers of people fleeing horrific violence and oppression. For example, it doesn't include the vast majority of North Koreans, subjects of the world's most repressive regime. For the most part, that government's victims are targets of what we might call "equal-opportunity oppression" doled out to almost everyone who lives under the regime's rule, not just to members of specific racial, ethnic, religious or other "social" groups. It doesn't even include people subjected to forced labor, as long as their enslavement wasn't based on any of the above prohibited characteristics…..
Even if terrorists or repressive governments target you personally, you still don't qualify for refugee status unless their motive was one of the criteria listed above…
Ideally, we should expand the definition of "refugee" to cover everyone fleeing violence, war, and repression, regardless of the oppressors' motives for targeting the person in question. If that isn't feasible, for political reasons, legal scholars and other experts have advanced a variety of proposals for incremental expansion of the "refugee" category….
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On the other hand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics
The definition of "refugee" isn't, "Lives in a less pleasant country than the United States".
Refugee means that your city has been bombed flat, like many German cities at the end of WWII.
Very few meet that standard.
Or you promise to vote Republican like Cuban refugees…remember when Republicans supported the American kidnappers over the Cuban father in the Elian Gonzalez case?? All to help Bush “win” Florida?? At least you delayed health care reform while getting to slaughter a few hundred thousand innocent Muslims though…totes worth $5 trillion in unnecessary defense spending.
"American kidnappers"
His mother died to bring him to America, Clinton' thugs kidnapped him to deliver him to a Communist dictatorship.
Last I heard he's a Surgeon making $175/week (that's pretty good Dinero in Cuber, heck, it'll be pretty good Dinero here soon enough)
So the rights of the parents are secondary to the wishes of the government. Gottit.
I'm sympathetic to Prof. Somin's argument. There's going to be a lot of refugees in the next few decades and rich countries have a moral obligation here.
But... practically, there's going to be A LOT of refugees. Especially in Europe, this issue is already warping politics. So who is going to agree to broaden the definition, and even if everyone agreed to do it, there'd probably be a popular revolt. It seems like a proposal that will go nowhere.
That's a pretty convincing point. Art of the possible and all that.
The thing is, that's a convincing response to almost everything Ilya writes on immigration. Virtually nothing he wants is attainable in a functioning democracy, he can only get it if policy makers decide to ignore overwhelming public opinion.
It's not unlike NY Times Thomas Friedman's periodic column schtick where he fantasizes about what government policy he would implement if only he had the "freedom" of China's authoritarian regime to do whatever it wanted.
Any good movement needs idealists and pragmatists. Yes, Prof. Somin is an idealist and doesn't often talk about political attainability. Which you think is a sign of anti-democratic leanings, but which I think is just normal idealist stuff.
Dilan was talking not just about politics, included a robust prediction of near future events as well. That's why I thought his comment insightful beyond the 'it'll never happen' crowd.
Finally, policymakers are allowed to ignore public opinion - their job is not to be a slave to populism. The Founders thought that a virtue of their system over a tyranny of the majority.
I guess that's why Democrats like to run commercials accusing Republicans of pushing grandma's wheelchair off a cliff any time the topic comes up (and sometimes even when it doesn't).
It's funny, that ignoring public opinion to do the right thing only seems to be celebrated for policies embraced by the left.
Political rhetoric sure is manipulative.
This is something Democrats invented in 2016, I hear.
You can be grumpy about it, but don't pretend it's a Dem thing.
The GOP is rolling populist a lot now - the negagive fearmongering about the other side kind. Though this has locked them into some pretty nationally unpopular policies.
Seems no fun to be a Republican these days.
Jumping in late here, but just to build on Dilan's point.
I know the gut isn't the best way to create policy but I've got a really bad feeling about where the whole Ukraine/Russia thing is headed. I'd give it 50/50 that a nuclear weapon will be used in Europe in the next year.
That's going to create a WHOLE lot of refugees. I think we may want to be more restrictive now and start preparing space because we may very well need that space sooner than we like.
This really isn't meant to be a commentary on the wisdom, or lack thereof of current policy.
Yep, it's part of the reason why no one can trust Americans anymore. You're discrediting yourselves daily.
But remember: when they go low, you go high, yeah? 🙂
Somin is not an idealist. He's a virtue-signalling propagandist with an obvious ulterior political agenda, one that just tracks the American-led, 'liberal-progressive' social re-engineering projects for the West.
It's horseshit. Somin's not very different from Soviet journalists/propagandists from the 1930s-50s.
Since you mentioned it, EU law also recognises a category known as "eligible for subsidiary protection".
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32011L0095
Aren't you in the Netherlands? What is the status of your oppression of Dutch farmers? Is their destruction finalized, or is there still hope upcoming elections will change it?
They just took over the provincial government of literally every province in the country, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
I thought they were going to force farms to close down and buy them out? Is that going to be reversed now? Sorry if I'm out of date or just wrong.
The farmers’ electoral revolt presumably will stop that plan. The catch, as I understand it, is that the government of the Netherlands instituted the program because it was required by some agreement with or order of the EU. Don’t know how enforceable the EU edict is.
That is what puzzles me about people being mad at Brexit, as if the EU had any sort of democratic legitimacy.
I guess it’s more satisfying to rail against the xenophobic English hooligans, instead of acknowledging that the fundamental undemocratic nature of the EU (how do people hold it accountable when it transgresses popular will, because expert bureaucrats know best). This is best exemplified by the grocer rebellion, where some didn’t like being forced to abandon non-metric weights. If you can’t complain to your MP (or congressman) about something government is doing and have them not be impotent to affect change, you’re doing democracy wrong. Who do you vote out to change EU policy?
That is what puzzles me about people being mad at Brexit, as if the EU had any sort of democratic legitimacy.
Don't use words you don't understand.
Who do you vote out to change EU policy?
Your MEP and/or your national government.
Using eminent domain was never the plan in the first place, because it is wildly unpopular. But yes, the Netherlands will still need to find a way to comply with relevant EU law.
No native farming. What could possibly go wrong?
The Netherlands is the 2nd largest farming country in the world, in absolute values. Dutch farmers will be fine, and the Netherlands will export the vast majority of its agriculture production under any scenario.
They won 15 of 75 seats, which falls a long way short of "taking over". I don't think it gave them enough votes to reverse the policy.
...which is flipping 20% of legislative seats. Flipping 87 seats in the House of Representatives or 20 seats in the Senate would be enough for either party in either chamber to reverse pretty much anything they'd passed in the past.
Sure, it would be in a 2 party system where the parties are usually close to parity, so shifting 20% of the seats would give a party a dominant majority. In a multi-party system going from 0% to 20% isn't a knockout blow, it still leaves plenty of room for a hostile coalition to be put together.
Maybe in another election cycle they can lay genuine claim to having "taken over", at this point they've just gained a seat at the table.
In a multi-party system going from 0% to 20% isn’t a knockout blow, it still leaves plenty of room for a hostile coalition to be put together.
It might, but a lot of parties that are competing for the BBB electorate have every reason to bring BBB into the tent instead of putting them in opposition. Not to mention that there's another block of 20%-odd of seats in most provinces that are held by the extreme right, and that the plurality winner (i.e. BBB) has the right of initiative in the coalition negotiations.
Which is why BBB ended up in coalition in every province that has announced its new coalition to date. (As well as in Friesland, where the Labour party withdrew from the deal after it had already been announced, confusingly.)
In the Senate they screwed up the election a bit.* They could have easily had one or two more seats and become the plurality winner if they had coordinated better with other rightwing parties.
* The Dutch Senate is elected by the members of the provincial legislatures shortly after every provincial election. That means that the Senate election involves 500-odd provincial assembly members electing 75 Senators. Needless to say, that results in some scope for clever voting strategies where parties can help each other at no cost to themselves.
"EU law also recognises a category known as “eligible for subsidiary protection”"
Then you can take all the refugees.
We pretty much are. The US perfectly fits the general pattern: the fewer the refugees they take, the louder they scream about it. (See also: UK press screaming about a few thousand refugees in boats.)
Practically, the ONLY long term solution is for 3rd world nations to fix their own countries. The current system is unsustainable.
OR a return to colonialism.
Right-- the current left consensus is that it's racist to keep out people from troubled countries and colonialist to try to help the locals to fix their troubled countries. And we're inevitably not going to keep out the people who make their home countries troubled if we just throw the doors wide open. So in the long-run, allowing more refugees and "refugees" doesn't really help anybody, it's just a recipe for the slow-motion destruction of civilization. If the open-borders crowd wins, soon all countries will be troubled.
That is not a consensus I have seen.
That's really the key. Makes no sense how people think that if a country is troubled, it is somehow helpful to just take some chunks out of their population and put them the US.
Either the people they are relocating are the very people who are needed in their homelands to make things better, in which case it's very harmful to the country, or perhaps those being relocated are just bringing the problems here.
I don't think it's really about helping anyone.
John Rohan, you are correct that the current system is unsustainable, but a bit short-sighted in believing your preferred long-term solution is the "ONLY" one possible—or even possible at all.
Will start by noting climate change is...
1) a real phenomenon that is...
2) driven by human activity and which...
3) demands urgent action to reduce long-tail risks.
(Disagree with any of these as is your prerogative, but you'll probably find yourself gnashing your teeth a lot. Also, you’re incorrect but that’s not the point.)
Perhaps what you should be considering is the wild card of the not entirely predictable global/local effects and resulting long-tail risks of climate change.
Our favorite Air Force assignment was 1986-1992 in the Pacific Northwest . On second and final retirement in 2017, we returned to the South Puget Sound. More frequent and longer-lasting wildfires in the Northern Cascades and across Canada resulting in extreme smoke events far from the fires, are a new thing (didn't happen when we lived here before, and didn't happen to Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region before a few weeks ago).
But the changed climate of earlier annual Spring heat and altered precipitation patterns enabled those fires in forests evolved to different conditions, exemplifying unexpected mid-term impact. That will continue to affect us, though here that mostly means adding air-conditioning (as we did after 2018 and 2020 severe smoke events. With Everett/Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia being the least air-conditioned metro in the country—only in 1/3rd of homes—it'll likely be a good business to be in over the next few years).
Back the major point. We're glad we're here, because climate change will inevitably make currently uncomfortable Southern and equatorial latitudes, sometimes unlivable. Your "Practically, the ONLY long term solution is for 3rd world nations to fix their own countries is... impractical. Many of the 3rd-world countries you feel so threatened by will not be just unfixable, but unlivable.
Not sure when it will start but, either mid-term or long-term (if we don’t slow down and limit climate change), climate migration—both emigration and immigration—will eventually have a massive impact to everyone, everywhere, with financial and societal costs far exceeding the impact predicted by the most extreme of today’s most xenophobic immigration hawks.
What the heck are you talking about? You talk as if the US and Europe will be immune to climate change. First of all, I happen to believe in climate change (although I also believe the rate and effects are somewhat exaggerated). But that has zero to do with third world countries fixing themselves. In fact, it shows an even GREATER urgency to fix themselves, because it illustrates how they can't depend on western countries as a refuge forever. Where will refugees go when developed countries like the US become “unlivable”?
On top of that, when someone moves from the third world to the first world, they increase their carbon footprint by several orders of magnitude. So if you really believe man-made climate change is a crisis, the last thing you want are hundreds of millions of people from Latin America, Africa, etc moving to industrialized, developed nations.
Refugees should not be eligible to vote -- EVER...
So one of the smartest peoples of all time, Albert Einstein, wouldn't be able to vote??? Hey, can you check your "Dr." License?? see the add for "Sea Monkeys" next to it?
OK, Frank got a little less kind/less gentle there.
I'm the son of a "Refugee"' (son of a something anyway) or whatever East Germans were considered in 1961. What was my mom supposed to do? Go back to Berlin with me in Utero?? (don't answer that)
And she's as informed a voter as anyone (Yes, she voted #34 (no body calls him "Herschel" in Georgia), something about the other candidate being a closeted Moos-lum Black Supremercist)
I'd like to say Idiots like you shouldn't vote, but that wouldn't be "Kind or Gentle"
"Prickly, Irritable Frank"
How about this guy? Francis Stanley “Gabby” Gabreski (born Franciszek Stanisław Gabryszewski; January 28, 1919 – January 31, 2002) was a Polish career pilot in the United States Air Force who retired as a colonel after 26 years of military service. He was the top American and United States Army Air Forces fighter ace over Europe during World War II and a jet fighter ace with the Air Force in the Korean War. Although best known for his credited destruction of 34½ aircraft in aerial combat and being one of only seven U.S. combat pilots to become an ace in two wars, Gabreski was also one of the Air Force’s most accomplished leaders. In addition to commanding two fighter squadrons, he had six command tours at group or wing level, including one in combat in Korea, totaling over 11 years of command and 15 overall in operational fighter assignments.
After his Air Force career, Gabreski headed the Long Island Rail Road, a commuter railroad owned by the State of New York, and struggled in his attempts to improve its service and financial condition. After two and a half years, he resigned under pressure and went into full retirement.
Why is there going to be a lot more refugees in the coming decades?
Because they're going to redefine "refugee" to mean "anybody who'd be better off somewhere else", I guess.
Is that all? I thought maybe Dilan Esper foresees more wars and worsening conditions around the globe. Or maybe that he foresees more mysteriously funded mass transportations via boats and caravans and such.
Existing wars, internal conflicts, climate issues.
Are you blind to world events?
Brett, that is literally the opposite of what Dilan said.
FFS.
If every "rich" country lets in unlimited numbers of refugees, the rich countries will no longer be rich.
Why are there going to be so many refugees? Because Africa will stay terminally poor?
Ilya's preferred definition of "refugee" is "anyone who wants to come here, for any reason whatsoever". I'll pass on whatever he has to say about immigration.
That's right. He advocates replacing the American population with foreigners like himself.
He’s a citizen. He has a right to views you don’t like. Don’t be a bigoted fuck.
And don’t as hominem. I think he’s wrong too, but at least to engage his substance.
I think the "political opinion" category would definitely include North Koreans who want to defect.
The Obama administration tried to expand the asylum system to include women fleeing domestic violence. Not only would that open the floodgates to pretty much every woman in Latin America, it's ludicrous to encourage women to flee domestic violence by undertaking a journey 1000 miles across Mexico, in which migrants are regularly subject to sexual assault, assault, and robbery.
The "great" thing about the domestic violence thing is that it's unfalsifiable. Typically the only evidence that they were subjected to domestic violence is that they said so and there's basically no way to disprove it. Their abusive partner must be really athletic if they have to run thousands of miles and cross seven countries to get away from him, but the courts accepted this without too many questions.
Similar variants with cases that have been covered here, somebody claims they had to go thousands of miles and cross several countries to flee a "local gang" that was persecuting them for exactly the reasons the definition contemplates. The courts are insanely permissive in accepting this completely uncorroborated testimony.
Let’s address refugees' needs with "keyhole solutions ".
No thanks
That's interesting, so if anyone wants to shuffle global populations about like pawns on a chessboard, all they have to do is create some strife here and there.
Inching towards the Protocols.
Seriously? Get out of here with that.
You literally intimate shadowy forces manipulating world events pursuent to their own agenda for the world's population.
I know the right likes to rewarm the Protocols with 'Globalists' instead. But it's just as insidious paranoid bullshit either way.
Lotta people here seem not just unwilling to expand the definition of refugee, they just hate refugees. Like, are angry they exist.
You're... not angry that refugees exist? I guess that would make sense, given your policy preferences.
I can see justifications for being angry that refugees exist, especially in such large numbers. It's the blaming and hating them that is repugnant.
No one blames or hates genuine refugees.
"genuine" is doing a lot of work there. I don't think it means "fitting the narrow legal definition", at least not for some commenters here.
But also read the comments and you will see plenty of people pissed off even at those who fit the legal definition.
Calls to narrow it. For fewer rights to be granted. For them to stay in their own country and fix it.
It’s literally nearly every refugee is a free rider for plenty of folks around here, definitions bedamned.
Yeah. That’s what it is. If you’re worried about encouraging more people to come when we can’t handle or afford what we’ve got coming now you’re not a practical realist. You’re a racist hater. If you don’t accept the position of the most extreme of the progressives, you’re literally Hitler (side note, why is nobody ever literally Stalin?).
Perhaps you should just adopt Dr Ed’s attitude and suggest that everyone to the right of, say, Bernie should just be shot. Think of all the room you’d create for migrants.
If you read above, you will see me *endorsing* the realist take you put out.
Quit fucking making up what you're sure I said; read it again.
Over and over you reduce what I and others say to what you think a cartoon of a leftist would say. You're wrong a lot, because people are not cartoons just because they have a prefered political lean and you don't.
Your post said that there’s a lot of resistance on here to Somin’s constant call for open borders. They don’t just oppose expanding the definition of refugees, they hate refugees. They hate refugees’ existence.
So this part of the conversation started with your mind reading. And your statement made no allowance for people that sympathize with immigrants but recognize that there are limits to what the US can do.
Did you allow for that and I just missed it?
Or are you just responding to the drackmans and the cbds and the bumbles again and ignoring reasonable doubts because making types like that representative of all opposition is just easy to dismiss without discussion?
No, it starts with people posting that they want refugees to never have a path to citizenship; they think most of them are faking for economic reasons and want the law even narrower; they want them to stay in their home country.
Hostility. And not just from BCD and Drakman wither – I have those folks blocked. Brett and Ed and Someguy 2 and ML.
Though what if it was those jaggoffs? That still makes my observation about hostility true.
You clearly did not read the thread well. Especially since you tell me I said things when I literally said the opposite above. And change the scope of what I said to be about everyone in the thread.
And you have the balls to accuse me of mind-reading when you pull that nonsense.
Might want to check expiration date on your Namenda (Kindler/Gentler Frank helping a Seasoned Citizen) I just effing said (OK, meaner/pricklier Frank) my Mom was from Effing E. Germany, and named "Rosenberg", how popular was that name in 1961?? And I posted that Einstein and one of the top Aces of WW2/Korea were "Refugees" and "Children of Refugees" respectively,
OK, Moe-hammad Atta Junior I might have a problem with.
Frank
Yeah whatever. I read exactly what you wrote in the message I responded to. Did I read it in the context that you’re a one-track partisan? Yep. Because you always are. I’m not and that’s why I piss you off so much.
You should be happy. Your incompetent president’s son got a sweetheart deal today. Further evidence of our two tiered system. One set of rules for the favored few and another set for the rest of us. This will only further people’s belief in how our elites look out for themselves and when they vote in a way you think they shouldn’t you’ll call them stupid because it’s not possible to see what they are truly seeing. It’s shit like this and unlimited immigration and people taking private jets to discuss forcing us to eat bugs. Over and over and over again. And that gives us garbage like Trump. Congrats.
You put words in my mouth. Over and over,
You think I’m someone I’m not because you pretend I say things I don’t.
It’s especially evident here, where you really made a production of writing a whole comment about what you assume I am saying and got it clearly utterly wrong.
No one is angry that refugees exist. We just don't think they're our problem, morally or legally.
Unless they have a really great Split-Finger Fastball or can drain 3's (is that what the kids say today? "Drain 3's???) all day long.
When everyone is special, no one is special
Or, as WS Gilbert wrote, "if everybody is somebody, then nobody is anybody".
I would be much more likely to agree with this opinion if the US were to install a robust and rigorous immigratio/amnesty system to speedily decide cases and speedily execute on those decisions. Out de jure asylum system may be too narrow, but our de facto system of essentially catch and real ease on own recognizance is exponentially overbroad.
Unemployment is 3.7% and prime age employment is above 2019 levels—-will you wipe the asses of the boomers?? Will you do it for $15/hr??
Allowing de facto open borders because of a labor shortage is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They ain't leaving when the economy inevitably turns again. I'd be in favor of a guest worker program with teeth, but that's not in the cards.
Correct. And that means that they should not be allowed to bring their families or have children here.
That's the way the bracero program worked in the 1950s. It was pretty successful.
Do you think migrants all go home? Eventually the migrants grow old and someday will need large numbers of new workers to take care of them. It's essentially a pyramid scheme.
For sound economic perspective please go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Just. No. Compassion is not a lawful domain of government. If individual citizens are prepared to pledge total responsibility for individual immigrants seeking refuge, let them do so. But no need those would-be immigrants may suffer entitles them to tax other citizens to support them. It is vital to a just human society to divorce voluntary action from coercion, even if that coercion is levied by an elected government.
Alternatively, admitting more refugees will fix the aging demographic problem in the US, and so this could be covered by the general welfare clause.
No, it won't. Bringing in millions of third worlders who will need tons of expensive services doesn't solve any problem, demographic or otherwise.
If indeed they're in need of these expensive services - i.e., cost more than they produce. But do they? IIRC schooling is a high cost, but turns out to be a good investment,
Compassion is not a lawful domain of government?
That’s a very strange thing to believe. In a republic, the people are reflected in the choices of the government, compassion and all.
Why expand the concept? So you can just cheapen it and use it to propagandize and advance your ulterior political agenda?
Fuck off, Somin the Tankie.
If there is anything the racist, xenophobic fans of this faux libertarian, white, male blog can’t tolerate, it is some genuinely libertarian content.
Is that why you detest it so? Because you're a totalitarian fuckwit who wishes to police words, thoughts, and actions?
Is it a form of bigotry to hold mindless fuckwits like yourself in contempt and in disesteem?
While we're at it, perhaps we can remove the unique definition of refugees applied to Palestinians.
World Refugee Day is a Good Time to Consider Expanding the Ridiculously Narrow Legal Definition of "Refugee"
Nah, pass.
The legal definition of refugee is FAR broader than you claim. In reality, it is ridiculously broad.