The Volokh Conspiracy
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No Right to Lie About Current Indictments on Gun Purchase Form
From U.S. v. Holden, decided Friday by the Seventh Circuit (Judge Frank Easterbrook, joined by Judges Diane Wood and Doris Pryor); seems quite correct to me:
"Our legal system provides methods for challenging the Government's right to ask questions—lying is not one of them. A citizen may decline to answer the question, or answer it honestly, but he cannot with impunity knowingly and willfully answer with a falsehood." …
When John Holden sought to buy a firearm in August 2021, he had to complete ATF Form 4473. Among the questions was whether he was then "under indictment or information" for any crime punishable by imprisonment for a year or more. He answered "no," but that answer was false. Holden had been accused of battering a public safety official, in violation of Ind. Code § 35-42-2-1(c)(1), (e)(2).
In August 2022 Holden pleaded guilty to violating 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6), which makes it a crime
knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement … intended or likely to deceive [an] importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of [a] firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter[.]
He sought to withdraw the plea in order to contend that 18 U.S.C. § 922(n), which makes it a crime to purchase or receive a firearm while under indictment for a felony, violates the Second Amendment as understood in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen. The district judge granted this motion and dismissed the indictment, ruling that § 922(n) is invalid….
The main problem with the district court's approach is that Holden was not charged with violating § 922(n). He was charged with making a false statement to a firearms dealer, in violation of § 922(a)(6). A false statement "intended or likely to deceive [a licensed dealer] with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of [a] firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter" is forbidden. A false statement is material if it has "a natural tendency to influence, or be capable of influencing, the decision of the decisionmaking body to which it was addressed." An honest statement about a pending indictment would be material under that standard. A truthful statement would have led the dealer to refuse to sell Holden a gun.
Holden does not contend, and the district court did not find, that there is any constitutional problem with § 922(a)(6). Congress is entitled to require would-be purchasers to provide information—their names, addresses, Social Security numbers, criminal histories, and so on. We may assume that the Second Amendment would prevent enforcement of a statute saying, for example, that "anyone whose surname starts with the letter H is forbidden to possess a firearm." But that would not prevent Congress from demanding purchasers' real names. So too with Social Security numbers: the Constitution may block the federal government from limiting gun ownership to people who have Social Security numbers, but it would not interfere with the use of such numbers to identify, and perhaps check the criminal history of, people who do have them. The power to collect accurate information is of a different character—and stands on a firmer footing—than the power to prohibit particular people from owning guns.
Many decisions of the Supreme Court hold that false statements may be punished even when the government is not entitled to demand answers—when, for example, compelling a truthful statement would incriminate the speaker. The word "material" in § 922(a)(6) does not create a privilege to lie, when the answer is material to a statute, whether or not that statute has an independent constitutional problem.
Holden does not deny that his statement was "material" in the sense that it affected the dealer's willingness to sell him a gun. He maintains, rather, that it was not material "to the lawfulness of the sale", because § 922(n) must be treated as if it had never been enacted. Yet neither the Supreme Court nor any court of appeals has deemed § 922(n) void. Someone who wants a court to take such a step should file a declaratory-judgment action rather than tell a lie in an effort to evade detection that the sale would violate the statute.
Nor is it likely that § 922(n) would be held invalid across the board. The Supreme Court has told us that, except with respect to a law invalid in every possible application (or substantially overbroad with respect to speech), a statute's constitutionality must be assessed as applied.
Governments may keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous people who are apt to misuse them. Even if some applications of § 922(n) would flunk the constitutional standard (say, someone under indictment for an antitrust offense), others might illustrate the sort of person who cannot be trusted with guns (say, someone under indictment for using violence against a domestic partner). People cannot engage in self help by telling lies to avoid the inquiry whether § 922(n) may properly apply to them; they must tell the truth and seek judicial relief on the ground that § 922(n) would be invalid with respect to them, in particular. Indeed, one might think that the very act of lying to obtain a firearm implies a risk that the weapon will be misused.
This is not the proceeding, however, in which to adjudicate a contention that any particular application of § 922(n) violates the Second Amendment. Our discussion is designed to show that the statute's status remains unresolved.
Suppose the Supreme Court were to hold § 922(n) invalid in all of its applications (that is, "on its face"). Section 922(a)(6) speaks of facts material to "this chapter" of the Criminal Code. Knowledge that the applicant is under indictment might lead the dealer or federal official to check just what the charge is. Suppose the check reveals that the applicant is an alien charged with unlawful reentry after a removal order. That would forbid a sale under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5). A check might reveal that the applicant is a fugitive, barred by § 922(g)(2). It might reveal a conviction that blocks ownership under § 922(g)(1). (For example, the indictment might charge a person with possessing a gun despite a prior conviction for a violent crime.) And given the lag between filing a form and the transfer of the gun, some would-be purchasers who are indicted by the first date may be convicted by the second; an honest answer would allow that possibility to be checked.
For these reasons, a truthful answer to the question "are you under indictment?" can be material to the propriety of a firearms sale, whether or not all possible applications of § 922(n) comport with the Second Amendment. It follows that the district court's judgment must be reversed and the criminal charge against Holden reinstated.
David Hollar represents the government.
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I think the court here was overly casual about the federal government being entitled to condition exercise of civil liberties on answering intrusive questions. Properly speaking, even that infringes the right; If you don't have the power to declare that people can't do something, you don't have the power to condition doing it on acceding to some demand the government makes.
Government can’t condition the right to vote on registering? Asking intrusive personal questions like ones name, age, whether one is a citizen?
What makes the right to own a gun a superior right to the right to vote? After all, both are rights of “the people.” Not rights of persons. Not general human rights. A limited subset of humanity.
The only reason you can condition voting on registering, is that you only have a right to vote once per election in a specific place. And you don't just go around voting on your own initiative, it's a right that only exists in the context of government. Registration enables those inherent limitations to the right.
Gun ownership, like book ownership, is a private right, not a right in interacting with government. Thus conditioning the right on answering an irrelevant question is improper.
That’s ridiculous.
The government has the power under the Census Clause to collect data about its population. It can literally ask everyone in the country how many guns they own AND how many indictments they are under.
Now, there is a privilege to not provide information to the government. It’s called the Fifth Amendment. You are not required to provide information that could incriminate yourself.
And those of us who believe in substantive due process also might add that there is a right to privacy that prohibits disclosure of some intimate details of your life.
There is also a First Amendment privilege that is pretty narrow and also goes to things like political and intimate associational rights (the government can ask you if you belong to the Communist Party, but can't ask the NAACP for membership lists).
But outside that, yes, Brett, the government can ask you anything they want to ask you, and they can compel you to answer it too.
Sure, I didn't say they couldn't ask the question. I said they couldn't condition exercise of a civil liberty on your answering it.
Sure they can.
Well, of course, as a matter of raw power, and corrupted judiciary, they can. We're barely started restoring our 2nd amendment rights, and in the presence of a leviathan government the founders never would have anticipated.
I'm saying you can't legitimately condition exercise of a civil right on answering it. Not that they care if what they do is legitimate, just that they can get away with it.
Are you okay with requiring a license for you and your butt buddies to have gay anal sex, and to ask if you plan on using a condom?
If not, why not?
Of course they can. You have a constitutional right to travel but that doesn't mean you can board a plane without answering questions from the TSA. Newspapers and television stations have to provide the IRS with information on their employees and their salary. Whence comes this nonsense that being a constitutional right places the entire subject matter outside the reach of government?
You are crazily used to impositions that are alien to our constitutional traditions, and of very recent origin.
I'm pretty sure that newspapers that operated as corporations or joint stock entities have always had to provide information to the government.
But even if one were to grant your false impression of history, it just is one more example of how silly originalism is. Because, as we are telling you, the notion that the government can never require you to provide any information in connection with the exercise of a civil right is bat**** insane and not a serious belief.
Unless one's position is that the 2A allows 100% of the population (including non-citizens) to purchase a gun, then the government can ask questions before people purchase guns.
Sure, but the questions should only be about things that are illegal. The current 4473 goes far beyond that.
Brett, have you thought your 2A understanding through? Seems less implementable and more reactionary to me.
You might be right - if that was the point of this case (which it wasn't).
"The main problem with the district court's [and Brett's] approach is that Holden was not charged with violating § 922(n). He was charged with making a false statement to a firearms dealer, in violation of § 922(a)(6)."
He could have refused to sign and then made a federal case out of it; and maybe might have won since he has to be assumed to be innocent (at that time anyway).
All I said was that the court was too casual about conditioning exercise of a civil right on answering the government's questions.
I'm actually in agreement with you in this much: He should have refused to answer the question, instead.
Hunter Biden still holding on line three - - - - - - -
Hunter just needs to stay on hold for a little longer.
Hunter's texts ranting about Hallie disposing of the gun are dated October 23, 2018, so we know he no longer possessed the gun by that date. Under 18 U.S. Code § 3282, the general statute of limitations for federal felonies is five years. Not sure when he bought the gun, but the statute may have already run on his lie of the Form 4473, and he just has to hold out for a few more months and he won't even need a pardon on the 922(g) violation.
Correction: The statute of limitations would not have run on the lie.
According to Politico: "POLITICO obtained copies of the Firearms Transaction Record and a receipt for the gun dated Oct. 12, 2018." So there is still time to indict him for the lie on the Form 4473, but time is running out. If they're going to indict him for the lie, they'd better get crackin'.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-service-inserted-itself-into-case-of-hunter-bidens-gun-477879
According to Politico, he purchased the gun on October 12, 2018, answering “no” to the question, “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” The statute of limitations would be five years. He could also be potentially liable separately under the prohibition of a drug user possessing firearms or ammunition. The most disturbing element is the Secret Service going to the gun store to attempt to retrieve his paperwork.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-service-inserted-itself-into-case-of-hunter-bidens-gun-477879
Of course, nothing will ever come of any of this.
Apparently the "Statute of Limitations" is upheld when it benefits Democrats and is conveniently ignored when it benefits Democrats.
And in a related matter (sic) - any learned folk got a view on why the Trump suit about getting a special master appointed to review documents seized from his house in Florida, is not a matter related to him being indicted for keeping the same documents in his house in Florida ?
https://leesmith.locals.com/post/4145393/special-counsel-lied-in-trump-indictment
Sure. Because Lee Smith is a far right wing hack who spent years lying about Russiagate and is being played now by even more right wing hacks like Kash Patel.
1) The term related case refers to pending cases.
2) The two cases are not in fact related. A civil suit asking for a special master to review documents for executive privilege has no connection to a criminal prosecution for violating the espionage act. The purpose of the related case doctrine is judicial efficiency and to avoid inconsistent rulings. Neither one applies here.
"Suppose the check reveals that the applicant is an alien charged with unlawful reentry after a removal order."
I don't buy this excuse for saving the conviction. I agree with the principle that lying on the form is the wrong way to challenge a statute that is reasonably likely to be upheld as applied to the defendant in the case of a direct challenge.
Frank Easterbrook is hostile towards the Second Amendment and would have rubber stamped for the government anyway.
See Second Amendment cases in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Easterbrook