The Volokh Conspiracy
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Flag Desecration Arrest in Indiana
WEVV (Evansville) reports:
An Evansville woman is behind bars after police say she set an American flag on fire and hung up an ISIS flag….
Authorities say they arrested Sierra Malloy, who made a comment about cutting off two of the officer's heads….
The affidavit shows Malloy had taken down the American flag off Spectrum's flag pole and set it on fire….
Malloy claimed to be ISIS and was saying homophobic slurs to officers.
Malloy was booked into the Vanderburgh County Jail for two counts of communication intimidation, criminal trespass, criminal mischief, and flag desecration.
It is certainly a crime to destroy someone else's flag, like it's a crime to destroy other people's property more generally; that's the criminal mischief charge. But it can't be punished as "flag desecration."
First, Indiana's flag desecration law ("A person who knowingly or intentionally mutilates, defaces, burns, or tramples any United States flag, standard, or ensign commits flag desecration, a Class A misdemeanor") is unconstitutionally overbroad, because it includes constitutionally protected burning of a flag that you yourself own. See Texas v. Johnson (1989).
Second, even a law that was limited to burning other people's U.S. flags would be unconstitutionally selective, in violation of R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992). The law can punish all destruction of others' property without their consent, just as (in R.A.V.) the law could punish all face-to-face fighting words. But when the law selectively targets particular subcategories of the punishable conduct because of the message (and likely the viewpoint) that the conduct conveys (hostility to the flag in this case, bigotry in R.A.V.), that is presumptively unconstitutional. And while some content-based distinctions within unprotected speech or conduct might be constitutional, as R.A.V. discusses, this wouldn't be one of them.
Thanks to Robbin Stewart for the pointer.
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Why couldn't a state define flag desecration as a hate crime, eligible for sentence enhancement?
If you spray painted a smiley face on a synagogue, that's vandalism. But if you spray paint a swatsticker on the same synagogue, that's a hate crime. And I've always considered this something that ought to be UnConstitutional, but it isn't -- and the state defines the protected groups.
Hence spray painting "Trannies Suck" on a highway overpass would be considered a hate crime while spray painting "Yankees Suck" would not be -- and fans of the NY Yankees are definitely a minority in Massachusetts...
And thus why couldn't a state consider burning a US flag owned by another a "hate crime"?
Even taking the dumb hypernationalist idea of American as a protected group, she owns that flag, so the underlying vandalism isn’t a thing.
"Police said Malloy had burnt an American flag she removed from the Spectrum store." I presume it belonged to Spectrum.
https://www.courierpress.com/story/news/local/2023/06/12/self-styled-isis-member-sierra-justice-malloy-arrested-after-burning-flag-in-evansville-nazi-qanon/70314089007/
And "veterans" *are* a protected group last time I read the antidiscrimination laws, but IANAA.
I did miss the underlying theft due to some very bad skimming, and am getting correctly dragged for it.
But veterans don't seem to be the target here anyhow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYsMjEeEg4g
How does she? (did you she the picture?) own the flag?
Cmon man.
Ok that is a fail by me. Dunno how I missed that.
To be fair, in my original post I erroneously omitted from the quote that line about the flag having been taken from the flagpole. (I had meant to include it, but overedited it.) I've now brought back the line, which appears in the quoted article.
What kind of “scholars” revise published work without acknowledging the door or the revision?
To be even more fair, there was absolutely nothing in your original version that in any way suggested that the flag was her property, so there was no reason to jump to the conclusion that it was.
What protected classification of people is the target of the hate crime?
I just noticed above you said veterans would be the protected group. Perhaps, but you can’t have flag burning to be automatically a hate crime. A jury would have to find that the burning was motivated by hatred of veterans (I can think of many other motivations including political statements against the country, not veterans). Moreover, a law that only provided a hate crime for flag burning but not other property vandalism likely runs afoul of R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul as explained by Eugene.
Why would it have to be veterans? Isis hates Americans and wants to kill them.
Why would it have to be a small group?
Note I don't support that theory, but I am not trying to work around the First Amendment.
How many heads does the officer have?
Two if he is male.... 😉
Turning over a new Leaf, "Kindler/Gentler" Frank,
OK, I can tolerate the Burning Amurican Flag (1st Amendment) Flying an Isis Flag (ditto), Don't burn an Isis Flag though, (Hate Crime), Threatening to cut off Officers Heads (Race-ist Anti-Moose-lum "Trope", if that was a thang there'd be all sorts of Videos of Moose-lums cutting off peoples heads)
BUT!!!!!!!!!
"Homophobic Slurs"???? Off with her Head!!!!!!! (Figuratively of course)
Frank
I should be able to stomp out a burning US Flag by using an ISIS sympathizers face...
Sounds like a conflict of interest given your profession.
I get to pick and choose those who's homes I enter to provide healing.
A-men! can I get an A-men?? Wait, umm, you actually go into peoples homes?? Worked at a local “Free” Clinic for a few years (I was the only one working for free) had to pay for malpractice, take time away from my regular job, my Boss (me) wasn’t happy, but I told the Boss (me) to eff off. Finally had to give it up, they required “non primary care specialists” to have a “Primary Care Preceptor” that’s right, Me (Bored Certified passer of the Gas), an Interventional Cardiologist, and a Nephrologist had to be “Precepted” (sounds fun) by a “Bored Certified” Nurse Practitioner straight out of (on-line) Nurse Practitioner School. Of course then the “Vid” hit, and I don’t think they see anyone in person anymore (Face-to-Face appointments!?!?!?! How “2019”)
Frank “Kindler, Gentler, but Bitter as (redacted) yes Reverend Kirtland, I'm "Bitter"
Flight ER-Doc,
Kindler/Gentler Frank here
I feel your pain, but as a Jew, I have to realize that the A-rabs have gotten the short end of the stick for Centuries, mostly due to their Mid-evil Religion and inattention to basic hygiene, but also, well, mostly due to that.
In fact, 9-11 probably would never have happened if the Israeli's hadn't been so stubborn and selfishly refused to drown themselves in the Mediterranean, or put their heads in an Oven, Sylvia Plath style.
And I see a day, maybe far in the future, where the Palestinians will have their own Homeland, self rule, and even teams in the Olympics.
Palestine winning an actual medal? not unless they make "Terrorism and Murder" Olympic Events,
Sorry, that was Meaner/Harsher Frank for a second
Frank "Peace out"
Frank, if she's ISIS *and* MAGA *and* NeoNazi, she sounds more like a NUT that anything else.
I don't know how much rain Indiana has had recently, but she started a grass fire 6-10 feet from a building that was big enough to prompt 911 calls to "stream in" -- again, she sounds like a nut.
Kindler/Genter Frank here,
and way too many negative vibes for Fathers Day. Dr. Ed, please reconsider your use of the derogatory word "Nut", the preferred term is "Mentally Disturbed"
If you take a look at the accused (Like President Trump she's innocent until convicted by a Jury of her Peers) Booking Photo ("Mug Shot" is so callous)
it's clear she hasn't had an easy life, (but certainly plenty of Cigarettes). So until you take a walk in her Timberlands, I'd hold off judgement on her DSM-5 diagnosis.
Frank "Mellow.........."
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will) but my understanding is that courts cannot repeal a law, only find them to be Unconstitutional and thus unenforceable, yet the flag desecration law remains on the books and is being used to charge this defendant.
Why would the prosecutor do this?
A prosecutor didn't. These are preliminary charges, she is going to be arraigned on Monday. See: https://www.courierpress.com/story/news/local/2023/06/12/self-styled-isis-member-sierra-justice-malloy-arrested-after-burning-flag-in-evansville-nazi-qanon/70314089007/
My understanding is that the prosecutor can dismiss (or add) charges.
The police have been known to charge people with things that aren't crimes.
Praise and Hosannas!! and can I get an Amen??
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
v.
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
Defendants. ___________
Frank
Fun facts: The US Flag Code
"§8. Respect for flag
k. The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."
Filed under "Oh, by the way"
"§7. Position and manner of display
f. When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right."
So a certain government building displaying the flag of a political group to the left of a US flag, and in the center of a multi-flag display was in violation of the US Flag Code. Imagine the riots (not peaceful demonstrations) is a Christian flag had been hung from the White House between two US flags.
I've seen this raised a number of times in a number of fora over the past week, and thus far have seen no actual attempt to explain why it's not a drop-dead straightforward violation -- mainly just stony silence and occasional variants of "why do you hate LGBTQEIEIOs" and "quitcher bitchin."
Maybe some of the legal whiz kids here will at least try to square the circle.
Hey Brian! Kindler/Gentler Frank
I think the whole Flag Ish-yew was an honest mistake, like President Biden having Classified Documents in his Garage. Not everyone has the luck of growing up on Military Bases, being in the Boy Scouts, or attending a Great Public University with a vibrant ROTC Unit, where you might get the opportunity to serve as an Honor Guard at a Veterans Funeral, where you learn all of the various rules about use of the Flag. (put one on a Veteran's Coffin the "Wrong Way" (Stars go over the Heart) once, Gunnery Sergeant Hartman never let me forget it...
Frank
1. Since the pride flag isn’t a flag of a “State[], cit[y], or localit[y], or pennant[] of [a] societ[y]” it doesn’t seem like the literal terms are implicated.
2. Since the U.S. flag was flying above the flags on the balcony display, it doesn’t seem like the spirit is violated either.
3. Since the flag code also gives the president plenary authority to modify or repeal its provisions, I’m not sure it’s even possible for the president to violate it, and on the scale of Biden’s poor conduct, this seems like a silly one to get worked up about.
Very thoughtful and incisive! Thanks!
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
What reasonable airspace do you see between the pride flag and a "pennant of a society"?
It's not apparent how having an American flag somewhere else cures the plain language of the rule vis-a-vis relative positioning of flags to each other.
This argument seems... familiar. So this is one of those rules a president CAN actually change just by thinking and/or doing it?
"§10. Modification of rules and customs by President
Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation."
Guess I missed the proclamation - - - - - - - -
You saw a cropped picture. There’s a U.S. flag on top of the White House (i.e., above the rainbow flag).
As I mentioned to Noscitur, there's nothing in the wording of the rule that suggests putting another American flag somewhere else voids the explicit requirements for relative positioning of a given American flag with other flags.
It is a violation of the flag code, but the code provides no penalty for violations. It's more of a flag guidelines than a flag code.
Arrr!
I am given to understand that technically this is a violation of the Flag Code, though to me it looks more like a celebration of the flag, and such celebrations should be encouraged.
4 U.S. Code § 8(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel,
I know you didn't intend to offend, but you should have put a "NSFW" notice before your link. I agree the young ladies in question probably thought they were the height of fashion, like the women Ath-uh-letes who went to the White House wearing Flip Flops.
Wonder if you can still get a "Flag flown over the US Capitol*" from your local Congressman? Seem to remember they had some poor guy who's sole job was to raise and lower a flag every 30 seconds. With the "Memorabilia" market, could be an untapped source of Income. I'd pay $50 for one of AOC's used (redacted)
Oops, meaner/stricter Frank came out there.
Frank
* for 30 seconds
To the extent those are or were flags and not just flag-themed, I'm going to credit the models as comprising a "patriotic organization" as mentioned in 4 U.S. Code § 8(j); I expect Frank saluted. And they're wearing them near the heart (among other places).
How many violations were there when Trump sexually assaulted the flag?
https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/40a/3b9/b22ae3001f142a69a0b671243386797f15-29-president-trump-american-flag-cpac-20.rsquare.w700.jpg
From the session law number (“P.A. 86‑942”), it looks like the law was added a few years before that holding. Interestingly, no scienter requirement. Knocking over a banquet-table US flag with an emphatic gesture when dining on the dais would seem to risk a fourth-degree felony in Illinois.
I wonder how the Court would handle burning a foreign country’s flag outside of an embassy or consulate. Boos v. Barry, etc. Johnson, from a quick review, seems to have been decided against a background of “no compelling state interest.”
Mr. D.
My mistake, looked up the Illinois statute rather than the Indiana one. In fairness, they look very similar, they're right next to each other, and both tribes wear a large letter "I" on their sweaters when engaging in their ritual feasts.
Mr. D.
Given the existence of legitimate charges and probable cause to arrest, is anybody liable for the tacked-on invalid charge of flag desecration?
Instead of passing new laws that seem to violate Court decisions (NY,IL) why don't the legislatures spend some time and clean up their statutes invalid laws?
And be accused of being in favor of flag burning? Nah, best to leave it to some omnibus cleanup bill every 20 years.
¨Given the existence of legitimate charges and probable cause to arrest, is anybody liable for the tacked-on invalid charge of flag desecration?¨
I´ḿ not sure what the damages would be.
No. As in every tort claim, a claim for violation of Constitutional rights requires a showing of but-for and proximate causation. The tacked-on charge caused no harm, because the arrest was legitimate anyway (which is the assumption of your question.)
I would think so. If I were her lawyer, which I am glad I am not, I would try to get all charges dropped in an agreement not to sue over the invalid charge.
If anybody here is an indiana lawyer and interested, I'd be willing to be the plaintiff seeking a declaratory judgment that Indiana's flag desecration statute is unconstitutional. alternatively, since i am an indiana lawyer, i could be the counsel if someone else wanted to be the plaintiff. i do not claim to be a very good lawyer, but it looks like an easy enough case.
i think the jehovah's witnesses had the right idea in barnette that if you secrate the flag (is that a word?) you violate the ten commandments.
- robbin stewart.
Here we go again with the flag stuff. The USSC has said that flag burning is a form of expression and protected by the 1A.
All of you political folks love yourselves some free speech until someone you don’t like speaks at which point it needs to be suppressed hard because it’s unpatriotic or misinformation or whatever. Some of y’all wouldn’t know a principle if it slapped you in the ass with both hands.
"Thank you, sir. May I have another?"
Kindler/Gentler Frank here, you’re absolutely right Bevis, (how’s Butthead doing?) First Amendment means what it says, if Kanye marches into my Sin O’ Gogue in full SS Regalia, carrying a Nazi flag, with a Rap-Oompah Band (is that a thing? Rap-Oompah Band? if not, it should be) playing the Horst Wessel Lied, I’ve just got to sit there until he’s done. OK, I might slash his tires while he’s not looking, 1st Amendment doesn’t say anything about not fucking with the peoples exercising their 1st Amendment rights, maybe that’s my 1st Amendment rights, slashing A-holes tires.
Frank
I do not believe anyone here said that it should be illegal. The closest to illegal was the implication that hate crime laws run afoul of the idea that "when the law selectively targets particular subcategories of the punishable conduct because of the message … that is presumptively unconstitutional."
All of you political folks love yourselves some free speech until someone you don’t like speaks at which point it needs to be suppressed hard because it’s unpatriotic or misinformation or whatever. Some of y’all wouldn’t know a principle if it slapped you in the ass with both hands.
You really showed those windmills, Don Quixote.