The Volokh Conspiracy
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Smith's Indictment of Trump In Florida Suggest He Won't Bring An Insurrection Charge in D.C.
Does the special counsel "seek to avoid distracting fights"?
The search warrant that authorized the search of Mar-A-Lago in August 2022 cited three statutes: 18 U.S.C. §§ 793(e), 1519, and 2071. Section 793(e) prohibits "unauthorized possession" of "information relating to national defense." Section 1519 prohibits destruction or falsifications of records in a federal investigation. And Section 2071 likewise prohibits concealment or removal of certain records. Critically, a person convicted of violating Section 2071 "shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States." (There's that language again--Groundhog Day!)
If Trump were convicted of violating this statute, would he be disqualified from holding the office of the presidency? Put aside for a moment whether the presidency is an "office under the United States" for purposes of Section 2071. Under U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton, Congress cannot add additional qualifications for an elected federal position. My colleague Seth Barrett Tillman addressed this argument in September. But even if Trump were convicted of this statute, the trial court would have no occasion to decide whether Trump was in fact disqualified from the presidency. That decision could only come in follow-up litigation, should Trump seek to hold some other office. Still, hovering over a Section 2071 prosecution would be the specter that a conviction could lead to Trump's disqualification. And I think that political storm could create a distraction from the underlying merits of the case.
Fast-forward to the present. Special Counsel Smith indicted Trump for violating Section 793(e). This statute does not impose any sort of disqualification. The indictment also references Section 1519, though not under a specific count. However, Smith did not bring a charge under 18 U.S.C. § 2071. Why?
The New York Times published an article titled, In Trump Prosecution, Special Counsel Seeks to Avoid Distracting Fights. The article explains that, at least so far, Smith has taken actions to minimize ancillary disputes, and instead focus on the underlying merits. For example, Smith did not seek any bond conditions on Trump, such as limiting Trump's ability to have contact with co-defendants, victims, and witnesses. The Times offers this commentary:
It also provided telling insights into the fist-inside-a-kid-glove approach that Mr. Smith and his team employed: an aggressive fast-track approach to prosecution coupled with a conspicuously respectful posture toward the defendant. Mr. Smith's decision not to demand any conditions at the arraignment, people familiar with the situation said, reflected a belief that prosecutors should avoid impairing Mr. Trump's ability to campaign. He is also seeking to dodge potentially distracting elements to a case focused on concrete evidence about the former president's handling of classified documents and efforts to obstruct government efforts to reclaim them.
Jack Goldsmith explains that Smith's strategy is designed to lower the "temperature" on this red-hot matter:
"The prosecution of a former president and the current political rival of President Biden is obviously hugely politically fraught and comes against the background of prior Justice Department actions against Trump marked by error and excess," said Jack Goldsmith, a Harvard Law professor and former assistant attorney general. "Trump and his allies will do everything they can to demonize the prosecution as unfair," he added. "It makes perfect sense that Smith, who has the law clearly on his side, would do everything he can to avoid raising the temperature on the matter further."
This background may explain why Smith did not bring an indictment under Section 2071. Such a charge would have ushered in a political storm that distracts from the underlying goal: a fast-track prosecution for failing to turn over the documents.
Conspicuously absent from the indictment was a potential charge that had been listed in the affidavit the Justice Department filed to obtain a search warrant for Mar-a-Lago last summer: Section 2071 of the federal criminal code, which prohibits the concealment and mishandling of sensitive government documents.
It was the only crime on the sheet that might have directly affected Mr. Trump's 2024 presidential bid, requiring that anyone convicted of it "shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States."
Many legal scholars believe that the provision is unconstitutional and would have ultimately been struck down if it were imposed on Mr. Trump. But Mr. Smith's team sidestepped the issue altogether, leaving it out of their 37-count indictment on a section of the Espionage Act that imposes a prison term but no restrictions on holding office.
"I think it's a very savvy move not bringing that charge," said John P. Fishwick Jr., who was the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Virginia from 2015 to 2017. "It makes this much less about politics — this is about the evidence, not about blocking him from office."
This strategy seems prudent, and minimizes any charges of politicization. Smith's decision to avoid a Section 2071 charge in Florida may provide some tea leaves about his plans for the District of Columbia with regard to January 6. Many scholars and advocates have urged the special counsel to indict Trump for violating 18 U.S.C. § 2383, the federal insurrection statute. It provides:
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
There's that language again--Groundhog Day! I think it is widely agreed that Section 2071 cannot be used to disqualify a defendant from the presidency. But there is some debate about whether Section 2383 could disqualify Trump from the White House, to the extent that it invokes Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Seth and I wrote an article in early-2017 contending that this statute could not disqualify Trump from the presidency. (Ned Foley recently flagged our views on the Election Law Blog). But, to quote a recent brief, our view is probably idiosyncratic. Ultimately, Trump's lawyers may find our views with regard to Section 2383 more persuasive than our views on the federal removal statute.
If the Times is correct about Smith's strategy, then a Section 2383 prosecution would go beyond distracting--it would consume the nation. A single jury in the District of Columbia could make a finding of guilt that could place Trump's ability to run for re-election in doubt. Smith has very good reasons to avoid these problems. If he pursues an indictment based on Trump's January 6 conduct, there are many other charges he could bring that would avoid distracting fights.
To date, DOJ has not indicted anyone on Section 2383. Rather, the government has prosecuted Stuart Rhodes and the Oath Keepers under charges of seditious conspiracy. This statute does not impose any sort of disqualification. Would Special Counsel Smith seek to make Trump the test case for Section 2383? I am doubtful.
In any event, even if Trump were convicted of violating Section 2383, the district court would have no occasion to decide the scope of disqualification. This litigation would almost certainly arise on ballot litigation, with a resolution by the Supreme Court, if not in Congress on January 6, 2025.
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You seem to have skipped over the most obvious reason for not bringing such a charge: The complete and utter lack of evidence he is guilty!
When did that matter?
Worth noting that it matters so little it wasn't worth giving any mention...
Have you bothered to actually read the indictment and the evidence cited therein?
You may disagree as to the ultimate guilt/innocence determination for violations of various Federal laws, esp. under a "beyond reasonable doubt standard", but to assert there is a "complete and utter lack of evidence" is truly, mind-bogglingly inane.
Squawking "no evidence! no evidence" is grotesquely lame partisan shilling. Even from you I expect a little better.
“…lack of evidence he is guilty” is not the same as your “no evidence! no evidence”.
By the way, and indictment is not evidence of anything.
A complete and utter lack of evidence for the specific charge Blackman discussed.
I think Trump probably is guilty of illegally retaining the documents, even if it isn't something a former President would ordinarily be prosecuted for, and which Biden is equally guilty of. There's enough evidence of that, that Smith didn't think he needed a DC jury to convict.
But the concealment charge, where's the evidence for that? If he does bring that charge, he'll bring it in DC, where he wouldn't need good evidence.
You don't think he concealed the documents? You don't even allow that there is any evidence whatsoever that he did that?
You might say that there is no evidence of evidence...
I thought it worth mentioning that Blackman didn't explicitly consider the possibility that Smith didn't bring that charge simply because he had no evidence to justify it.
No, you might not say that. The indictment specifies exactly how Trump caused a false statement to be submitted that he had searched for docs and turned over all that was found. There is credible evidence that this was a willful misrepresentation. Not "utterly no evidence".
For ex. paragraphs 63-72 of the indictment, under the heading “The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury”
Look, you’re flailing here. Maybe it’s time to SFTU and STFD on this one.
You STFU and STFD, did you even get within 50 feet of a law school? Do you know what an Indictment is?? MLK Jr was indicted hundreds of times, was he guilty????
And pretty sure Sleepy J fondling Eva Longoria's tits yesterday has to be a violation of something, if only common human decency.
Frank
Yeah, near top of class, clerked for Federal judge. Beats being a pretendian "doctor" on reason.com.
Well I was top of my class, and I'm a current Federal Judge, and not at some East Kentucky State Step N Fetchit Klinger School (HT Reverend Sandusky) like you. Don't you get it? it's AlGores Internets,
but hey (man!) how about that Sleepy Joe feeling up Eva Longoria yesterday. You "Clerked for a Federal Judge" (not Barney Frank I hope) what Federal Statue did Sleepy violate??
"we've secretly replaced Frank Drackman with Folgers AI crystals ... can anyone tell the difference?"
"how about that Sleepy Joe feeling up Eva Longoria yesterday."
Not good. Although he didn't actually feel her up. The way she brought both her hands up to catch Biden's implies that she was interested in preventing any further opportunity. Sort of a forestalled inchoate grope and not a good look for our president.
Frances Mengele: "You STFU and STFD, did you even get within 50 feet of a law school?"
Is that supposed to be irony? You should have remained a throat fucker of Chihuahuas, it's less risky, you gullible gormless gobshite.
BB: “But the concealment charge, where’s the evidence for that?”
You: “The indictment specifies exactly how Trump caused a false statement to be submitted that he had searched for docs and turned over all that was found. There is credible evidence that this was a willful misrepresentation. Not ‘utterly no evidence’”
A false statement is not concealment.
Here is the statute Blackman mentions. (But, although the indictment has a section — p.21 — titled “The Defendants’ Concealment of Boxes”, it doesn’t appear to be one of the statutes that the indictment claims that Trump violated — See the list on p.1.)
18 U.S. Code § 2071 – Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
(a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b)Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.”
My impression is that Nauta is included to justify a conspiracy charge -- conspiracy to conceal? -- but I'm as yet unfamiliar with the document.
https://www.justice.gov/storage/US_v_Trump-Nauta_23-80101.pdf
In what universe does deliberately hiding the docs from people who were tasked with looking for them, by the mechanism of secretly moving them around so they won't be reviewed, not constitute “concealment”?
That is some olympic-level semantic gyration you’re trying.
He hid documents. The evidence of the concealment includes both the well-documented movements of boxes, and willfully submitting a false response about not having the responsive document. Because that, right there, is concealing them.
Is this really that hard to understand? Do you honestly think a jury would have a hard time concluding Trump “concealed” responsive documents from both his own lawyers and the Feds?
That the various movements of the boxes were for concealment is not in evidence, outside of your fevered imagination.
'Just gonna move these boxes to make them... less... um... subpoena adjacent...'
I mean, nothing is actually in evidence yet, so strictly speaking your statement is true.
Similarly, there is zero evidence against Biden of anything, if one insists on the narrow “admitted by a judge in front of an empaneled jury” meaning.
Fortunately, most of us know how the word “evidence” can have various nuanced meanings at various stages of a criminal proceeding.
Isn't the party narrative being pushed these days that Biden should be given a pass because Trump actively refused to give the documents back and things are different ? It sure doesn't sound like Trump was concealing anything. He was actively refusing to give them back not concealing.
Here is an amusing point for you lawyer types. Read 2071 carefully. He didn't illegally remove anything. The documents were removed while he was still president and had a perfect right to do so. As far as we know, he didn't destroy anything. He didn't conceal anything. He acknowledged the existence of the documents and claimed possession. You might disagree that they were his, but he did not say he didn't have them. Looks to me like the politically motivated might find some crime to pin on him for not returning documents, but he sure doesn't seem to be in violation of 2071.
The indictment says Trump claimed he turned over everything in his possession that the government had asked for but in reality he knowingly held stuff back.
If he had said ‘yes, I have this stuff, it’s mine and I’m not giving it back,’ he would indeed be in strong position to say he concealed nothing. But he lied.
So claims the indictment, at any rate.
You're right, he should have just done like Pence, Sleepy, Barry Hussein,
"Uhhh Duhhhh, I didn't know I had Classified Documents in my Garage/Office/Home....I'm Sorry, Duhhhhh"
Frank
"...he knowingly held stuff back."
Hillary deleted "stuff" from her server, but claimed it wasn't within the scope of the "stuff" she had to turn over.
butteremails!
I know it's hard for you, but do try to control your Tourettes.
Bonjour Tourettes
This factually misrepresents the indictment. See paragraphs 52-62 ("The Defendant's Concealment of Boxes") and 63-72 ("The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury").
Specifically, Trump directed Nauta to move boxes so that they would not be searched, and the boxes were in fact not searched (para 70), which resulted in the false representation to the DOJ that he did not possess responsive documents (see para 71).
Trump knowingly and willfully lied to the FBI about not having any more responsive documents. He didn't say "I have 100+ docs bearing classification markings, but they are legally mine", he said "I handed over all the docs bearing classification markings, I performed a diligent search, and I don't have any more."
That smells like "concealment" to me. Is that really so hard to understand?
"Specifically, Trump directed Nauta to move boxes so that they would not be searched..."
Where do you find the evidence for this assertion ("so that they would not be searched")? That claim is made at 7(b), but a claim is not evidence.
If it makes you feel better to discuss the detailed allegations and supporting evidence that the govt plans to use at trial in the context of Arrtifex’s misrepresentation that
then sure, we can do that.
Artifex is factually wrong. The indictment alleges that Trump willfully concealed documents, and describes the evidence that the govt will seek to admit at trial. That evidence that the govt will seek to admit at trial includes Trump’s false attestation, via lawyer #3, that he did not retain documents responsive to the subpoena.
From that, I conclude that an excellent word to describe trump’s alleged behavior is “concealment”.
Does that satisfy your evasive pedantry?
Artifex is factually wrong.
Perhaps, but you are not doing a great job of laying out the argument. I suppose it is possible Trump was concealing something, but you are going to have to do a lot better with facts than parroting political rhetoric to convince anyone but the true believer crowd.
As an example, take another look at the document you are referencing. The narrative that is being driven is that lawyer 3 said there were no more documents. That is a political lie. In Clinton fashion, she says:
“[b]ased upon the information that [had] been provided to” her: “A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida”;
That’s not a false statement regardless of how the DOJ wants to spin it. She believed the boxes had been searched and she didn’t attest that “all” the boxes had been searched. She absolutely did not say “I know we have searched all boxes and found nothing.” You were fine with both Clinton’s lawyerly parsing of things right ?
You can see all the conspiracy theory you want. I see a lazy dude telling his staff to just make the problem go away so he can go on vacation and his staff using weasel words to tell the DOJ absolutely nothing. This seemed fine for you when Lois Lerner and the IRS gave these types of answers to congress. Why do you have a problem with it now ?
Maybe you have a statement by Trump instructing his lawyers in no uncertain terms to conceal documents. Go ahead and provide the recording and I will believe you. Until then, you are just spinning.
That's a lot of whatabouttism just to say you haven't read the indictment, don't understand the indictment, or both.
The indictment provides detailed allegations that directly contravene your party line assertion that
That's why the FBI executed a search warrant, and found docs that Trump did not "acknowledge[] the existence of".
The indictment alleges exactly how Trump, via his attorneys, caused a false statement to be made to the FBI that he did not have any more responsive documents.
You might disagree that the evidence - uh, sorry, "the factual allegations recited in the complaint that the government plans to introduce into evidence at trial", for the pendants out there - is sufficient, but you're not even getting to that step: you're failing to read and/or understand the indictment.
To defend a client well, one must first acknowledge the reality of the indictment and the evidence therein - oops, "the factual allegations recited in the complaint that the government plans to introduce into evidence at trial" therein.
Actually for Biden its worse.
Some of the classified documents Biden was in possession of date back to his time as Senator. If Biden was authorized to view those documents it would have been in the SCIF, and he would have had to knowingly removed them, knowing it was illegal, and no aide could have done it for him.
Ask Dick Durbin and Dick Blumenthal, CNN congressional correspondent Manu Rank did:
"Senators from both parties are at a loss over how classified documents from Biden’s time as senator could have ended up at his DE home
Dick Durbin : “The process we go through is so elaborate that I can't understand how any individual senator can take possession of a classified document, let alone remove it to another location,” Durbin said. “It's just unthinkable, and the time I'd been in the Senate … it's never happened, and I can't explain how it happened here.”
·
Jan 24
Blumenthal told us: “When we view documents, we have to leave them in the room where we see them without taking notes without making copies, without any kind of transcription. And I think that kind of practice prevailed when then Senator Biden looked at them as well."
Jan 24
Hawley: “I'm trying to think of how do you as a United States senator get classified documents and take them out of the SCIF. I mean, it's raises a lot of interesting questions —I say interesting, when it’s really concerning questions.”
https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1617924508786262017?lang=en
I have reviewed your facts and find them umm, "Factual"
prepare to be "Cancelled", Indicted for "Mopery with intent, Impersonating a Human Being, and Fugitive from Society" and possibly Federal Hate Crime Charges (we have photos of you making the "OK" sign)
if you're smart you'll "Commit Suicide" like Vince Foster and Jeff Epstein, save yourself the embarassment (and butt hurt) of Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
Frank
Kazinski, what federal statute(s) do you surmise that Joe Biden violated? And when did any such violation(s) take place?
Please cite statutes by number.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution
for one
Wow, talk about a fundamental fail.
That's not a statute that can be violated.
Try again, loser. Then try, try again because you're still a loser.
That's called an Ad-Homo attack, you Homo, which you should know, because you're a Homo.
And you're probably one of those stuttering about how "Treason's defined in the Constitution"
"Loser"?? I've taken shits who are more successful than you, I can tell by your stupid screen name. And the fact you're defending Sleepy Joe.
So his grabbing Eval Longoria's tits yesterday wasn't a crime?? "He's an old man!!! He's Confused!"
Evan Eva was creeped out by him, she grabbed his hand away like it was a Rattlesnake,
Frank "Never grabbed Eva Longoria's tits, dammit"
Go have another couple shots of moonshine, I'm sure it will improve your arguments.
But I am genuinely curious why you brought up Art. I, Sec. 9, Cl. 8, "Powers Denied Congress" which recites:
"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State."
and why you think that's a "Federal statute" that Biden can be convicted of violating.
C'mon genius, show us how you went to law school and I didn't.
Coward.
Apparently you were at "Step Practice" when they went over Emoluments (Hey (man!) I get it, not everyone can go to the Ivy Tower Schools, the next generation of Johnny Cochrans gotta start somewhere...
And are you sure you read your Diploma right? look right next to Count Chocula,
I'd call $10,000,000 from You-Crane an "Emolument" maybe you wouldn't, that's what courts are for (I think they teach that in law school) and the Defense tells their story, and the Prosecution tells theirs, and then when Kyle Rittenhouse gets aquitted, they consider charging him with some bullshit "Civil Rights" Violation.
And sorry, I'm picking up a very strong odor of Afrosheen, Fried Chicken, and Ketanji-Grungey-Jackson-Brown (you're not her are you??) just based on your fundamental ignorance,
Frank
There are so many ways this is gibberish, besides your general illiteracy, but among others, Burisma is not a "king, prince, or foreign state."
and you want dates, well I can speak Federal Prosecuterese too,
"At various diverse times from 2014 to present"
You may want to check out 18 U.S.C. § 3282(a).
Joe Biden´s service in the Senate ended in 2009. He left office as vice-president January 20, 2021.
If you can´t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
"Joe Biden´s service in the Senate ended in 2009. He left office as vice-president January 20, 2021(sic)."
So, you're transitioning from denying that Biden violated a statute to claiming that he gets away with doing so because of a five year statute of limitations.
Pretty Sure Barry Hussein left Orifice January 20, 2017,
with Senescent Joe "Clinging" to his crotch like a tick.
Still waiting, Kazinski. What federal statute(s) do you surmise that Joe Biden violated?
Sorry Not Guilty, I spent the morning up on my roof fitting the flashing around the chimney for my wood stove. My Roof is metal and a 12/12 pitch so when I’m up there I generally try to concentrate on not sliding off.
Just kidding, I tie off and use a harness so its not something I worry too much about.
But then in the afternoon, when it got too hot I had to drive in to Reno to get the underfloor hearth insulation I needed to put in the slate pad for my wood stove, and I picked up about 400sq ft of unfinished pine for my cabin flooring.
There’s a front coming in Monday and I told my wife I’d have the woodstove installed by then, we live off the grid in the summer at over 5000 ft, so sometimes issues like that come up.
But in any case I’m not a lawyer or even a prosecutor so I’m just going to have to go with Dick Durbin said about it: “It’s just unthinkable, and the time I’d been in the Senate … it’s never happened, and I can’t explain how it happened here.”
A Senator has never been prosecuted for that sort of thing before, and neither has a president, so go figure.
How am I supposed to know what the statutes are?
If you want to know the code requirements for single wall wood stove pipe and double wall class A chimney pipe., and how to transition them I can help you, but I'm not a building inspector or contractor either (well former IT contractor, but that's different).
But Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria would have the specific answers you’re looking for.
Weak, dude.
I'm glad you were so productive, but that doesn't mean you get to make legal stuff up.
S_0,
That is an awfully weak response.
There are certainly federal rules carrying penalties that attend to the handling of SCI documents. Some of those rules specifically address in what manner they may be transported outside of a SCIF. The question "what law" is a weak defense of a person who violated procedures (with penalties) that he signed.
It is the exact response warranted when people are trying to pretend Biden and Trumps actions are in any way comparable.
We don't have the foggiest idea where Biden got these documents. How do you know he removed them from a SCIF, as opposed to (for example) someone else doing so, and then delivering copies to Biden?
Ummm, what legal stuff did I make up?
All I did was quote Durbin saying that it's "unthinkable" that a Senator could end up in possession of classified documents if he was following the SCIF procedures.
I did say "A Senator has never been prosecuted for that sort of thing before, and neither has a president, so go figure." Was that wrong? To the best of my knowledge that's correct.
So what is the specific "legal stuff" I made up?
"Actually for Biden its worse."
That was you with a pretty shaky take on either the facts or the law or both.
That Biden took possession of classified documents as a Senator he knew he wasn't entitled to possess makes it worse in my opinion.
As for legal consequences we both know he won't face any. Am I making that part up?
18 U.S. Code § 2071(a) seems to apply:
"Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, REMOVES, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."
Probably others, too.
Please draft us an indictment. If you can get to even 1/10th the level of evidence cited in the Trump indictment, I'll be impressed.
Skeptical, but impressed. So I'll then check your sources, because as St. Ron said, "Trust but verify".
Draft my cock, I ain't yo bitch, nigger, that's what we pay "Special" Prosecutors for. How about Classified Documents Stolen (I think that's the legal term) while Sleepy J wasn't POTUS, and kept in the Garage with that piece of shit Corvette of his, (I've got an 08 ZO6, now that's a Corvette)
You'll check my sources?? Check my asshole too while you're at it, think I missed a spot,
Frank
Yawn. Even your pathetic insults are more about self-gratification than remotely interesting ripostes.
You use your pathetic insults on pathetic peoples, and yawning's a sign of Opiate withdrawal, be careful with that Mexican Fent-a-nol.
This Biden/Garland/Smith indictment has already politicized the issue to the max. There is no longer any argument that the Democrats are in favor of democracy.
I love this argument.
Even if you were correct, it would simply be what Don Trump tried to do in office, but couldn't. So even if you're right, your orange king destroyed democracy first, incompetently.
Thats so fucking stupid, you've gotta be a Red Sox fan.
So let me get this straight, the fact that Trump, that Sissy Sessions, that Cretin (look up "Cretin" and you see Bill Barr's photo) Bill Barr, Lindsay Buckingham-Nicks-Graham, didn't prosecute Hillary Rodman means they're incompetent?? Comey said she didn't do anything worth Indicting over, and believe it or not, "45" had better things to do than prosecute that drunk ass bee-otch, heck, if she'd got the nomination in 0-20, he'd have won. (like he did with Biden)
Oh, and now that he's been indicted less than a week, they need to move the trial out of Miami because the Trump Judge!!!!!! Yeah, move it to Atlanta, NYC, or DC, with 12 crack addicts wearing Floyd George shirts decide,
You want a crime?? how about Sleepy copping a feel on Eva Longorias Tits (Hey Now!!)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskThe_Donald/comments/14b0z84/eva_longoria_had_to_grab_bidens_hands_to_keep_him/
Frank "I can't wait till I'm 82 and can grab Taylor Swift's tits"
"...the fact that Trump... didn’t prosecute Hillary Rodman means [he's] incompetent?"
Yes. Even if he'd failed the current prosecution would be harder to get away with. And he ran on "Build the Wall!" and "Lock her up!" and one out of two would at least be one out of two instead of a big whiff.
It's a curious self-own sort of position the true believers (including those here) take. Let's review!
Trump bases an entire campaign on "Lock her up!" ... fails to follow through. Pretends to be manly, is weak and ineffective. Loser. But he does get the grift on for himself and family! Be sure to send the billionaire your last $25, folks.
Trump lacks the grace, intelligence, and dignity to be a post-presidential statesman, does really, really stupid and unnecessary stuff with docs. DOJ files indictment based on solid, well-documented evidence ... OH NOES, WITCH HUNT!
Trump: the witch hunt is evil and wrong ... so I'll do it X10.
It's effective rabble-rousing, but I really don't like the historical analogs for where it leads.
Why do you think there’s no evidence he’s guilty of violating 2071? The statute just refers to removal, destruction and concealment of certain government records. It’s broad enough that it would seem to be at least as supported as the charges that did make it into the indictment.
Or are you convinced there’s no evidence supporting the charges in the indictment either? I’m assuming you don’t think the prosecutor is just lying.
Thats so fucking stupid, you’ve gotta be a Red Sox fan.
So let me get this straight, the fact that Trump, that Sissy Sessions, that Cretin (look up “Cretin” and you see Bill Barr’s photo) Bill Barr, Lindsay Buckingham-Nicks-Graham, didn’t prosecute Hillary Rodman means they’re incompetent?? Comey said she didn’t do anything worth Indicting over, and believe it or not, “45” had better things to do than prosecute that drunk ass bee-otch, heck, if she’d got the nomination in 0-20, he’d have won. (like he did with Biden)
Oh, and now that he’s been indicted less than a week, they need to move the trial out of Miami because the Trump Judge!!!!!! Yeah, move it to Atlanta, NYC, or DC, with 12 crack addicts wearing Floyd George shirts decide,
You want a crime?? how about Sleepy copping a feel on Eva Longorias Tits (Hey Now!!)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskThe_Donald/comments/14b0z84/eva_longoria_had_to_grab_bidens_hands_to_keep_him/
Frank “I can’t wait till I’m 82 and can grab Taylor Swift’s tits”
You're arm-waving. "[B]road enough that it would seem to be at least as supported" doesn't cut it.
See paragraphs 63-72 of the indictment, under the heading “The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury” for recitation of specific evidence relating to willful and unlawful “concealment” – post presidency, after receipt of a subpoena. The rationales Blackmun discusses in the OP are good reasons not to bring a more complicated charge. “No evidence” is not one of them.
You might disagree that the evidence insufficient to prove Trump guilty BRD regarding a violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2071. Fair enough; there might be some wiggle room in “willfully and unlawfully”. I’m skeptical, but reasonable people could maybe differ on that.
But again, Brett’s original statement regarding “The complete and utter lack of evidence he is guilty!” is the part that’s pure fantasy. Hence Trump’s problem: serious people acknowledge that these are serious charges backed by serious evidence.
The discussion also allows foolish people to expose themselves as such.
There is no evidence I noticed of concealment in the indictment, just assertions that the movement of the boxes was for that purpose (e.g, 7(b)) or had that effect (e.g, 70). The conversations provided actually give other reasons for the moves (e.g., 27).
Hey Brett!
I asked in the Thursday thread, but I understand why you'd disappear like a fart in a hurricane:
Please share your source for the alleged Burisma whistleblower who just turned up dead.
Because you said it was the Chief Accountant, who happened to be Mykola Lysin, who happened to die in 2011, in a CAR ACCIDENT.
You fucking idiot, lol. Maybe don't take things Guiliani says as truth? You have absolutely zero credibility on anything.
Simple answer: I was going by news accounts that omitted any mention of that fact.
Just curious. What "news" accounts?
Just the ones specifically written to lead Brett and his ilk to a particular conclusion, obviously.
Brett knows the guy died because no news accounts mentioned the guy dying.
Huhn. Do you still trust that source, or could they just maybe be presenting highly partisan spin?
Presenting a 2011 car accident as current evidence of a current conspiracy (presumably Biden-related?) is ... kinda the opposite of good journalism.
I too am interested in your original source. If you're scared to provide a link, that will be relevant information not only about the reliability of your source, but the reliability and trustworthiness of anything else you present as "fact".
I didn't see your original comment and am unfamiliar with the issue, but it's the WIFE of Mykola Lysin who has reportedly recently (and maybe conveniently) died,
So what was your 'news' source? OAN? Newsmax? Some other collection of partisan idiots pretending to be reporters?
Did you learn anything from this experience? Do you think there's a chance in the future that you stop spouting bullshit and lies as evidence and facts?
I don't.
Brett is one of the few people around here with the stones to admit when he made a mistake.
And then when he does, you bullies/cowards just pile on even harder. Which makes it even more notable when he does so the next time.
He provided a dodge of an excuse. Blaming unidentified "news accounts" (plural!) followed by radio silence is not "the stones to admit when he's made a mistake."
I suspect that Jack Smith will not bring a charge against Donald Trump under 18 U.S.C. § 2383, despite having probable cause to believe that it is among the statutes Trump has violated.
I agree that U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995), would preclude disqualification of Trump for conviction under 18 U.S.C. § 2071. I am not so sure about a conviction under § 2383. The Supreme Court in Thornton did not address whether § 3 of the 14th Amendment, which disqualifies any person ¨who, having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof¨ is a "qualification¨ to hold office. 514 U.S. at 787.
I suspect that Jack Smith will not bring a charge against Donald Trump under 18 U.S.C. § 2383, despite having probable cause to believe that it is among the statutes Trump has violated.
OK, 1: I’m still not sure Jack Smith isn’t Hunter Biden after a shower, striking resemblance, and you never see the 2 together,
2: If he’s got "probable cause" to believe a federal crime has been committed and doesn’t bring a charge, isn’t HE guilty of a federal crime, Obstruction of Obfuscation or some such bullshit?? It’s like in “American Grafitti” when Holstein won’t write up Milner because he wants to “Catch him in the act”.
3: You want an open and shut case? Hunter B. falsifying his form 4473, he said he wasn’t an addict? he was. Even made millions from his book about it. Try doing what he did and see what happens.
Frank “Here’s your sign” (know that went over everyone’s pointy haids)
No.
This has been another episode of "simple answers to stupid questions".
got the Dyslexia?
You meant to say "Stupid Answer to a Simple Question"
FTFY
and I'm sensing a Fat Fuck on the other end of AlGores Interwebs,
Are you Christ Christie?????
Frank
¨If he’s got ´probable cause´ to believe a federal crime has been committed and doesn’t bring a charge, isn’t HE guilty of a federal crime, Obstruction of Obfuscation or some such bullshit??¨
Uh, no. While I realize I am casting pearls before swine here, ¨In our system, so long as the prosecutor has probable cause to believe that the accused committed an offense defined by statute, the decision whether or not to prosecute, and what charge to file or bring before a grand jury, generally rests entirely in his discretion.¨ Bordenkircher v. Hayes, 434 U.S. 357, 364 (1978).
You are a ridiculous clown to assert that there is probable cause to believe that Trump is a person ¨who, having previously taken an oath … to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
Are you claiming he had his fingers crossed on 1/20/17?
Nopoint, the Clown#2, knows perfectly well that Trump said nothing on 1/20/17 that would constitute engaging in insurrection or rebellion against the US, so there is no need for me to join him in imagining Trump crossing his fingers or engaging in any such silliness.
He just said some stuff and then there was an attempted insurrection *on his behalf* and somebody died *for him* and people went to prison *for him* that's all.
Of course not. 1/20/17 is when he satisfied the "previously taken an oath … to support the Constitution of the United States" element of the offense. Since he satisfied the insurrection/rebellion element on 1/6/21, the only thing you could have been claiming is that he didn't really take the oath on 1/20/17.
He might have, for luck given this:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/19/politics/trump-inauguration-protests-womens-march/index.html
not guilty, if you preclude disqualification for conviction, does that mean you sustain the possibility of conviction? I sense I may have lost the thread you intended.
Securing a conviction of Donald Trump under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 would give the clowns at SCOTUS an opportunity to rule that Trump´s speech to the crowd at the ellipse was First Amendment protected under Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). I am wary of doing that.
Since there are other statutes, carrying lengthy sentences, to which Trump has no plausible defense -- his and John Eastman´s conduct of January 4, 2021 contrary to 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) and (k) comes readily to mind -- I doubt that Jack Smith would want to cloud the water with an insurrection charge.
Yeah, be wary of letting the Surpremes rule on the first amendment. If I can burn a fag (no hate crime, it’s how they say “Smoke a Cigarette in Eng-a-land) I mean Flag, and it’s legal, whatever the fuck “45” (we real fans don’t use that “other” name) said on January 6th, I heard it, and didn’t storm the Capitol (I was 600 miles away) was "Protected"
Frank
Have another drink, you might make more sense.
No, he won't. He's a racist, inarticulate, illiterate middle-schooler sitting in his mother's basement pretending to be a doctor. Everything he pretends to know he picks up from Google and Wikipedia. The next time he says something clever and insightful will be the first time. For some reason -- perhaps he amuses them -- the professors who run this blog let him get away with his foul-mouthed, repetitive, bigoted crap. The rest of us can continue to laugh in his face because he is nothing but a joke. An offensive joke, but a joke. Thanks, Professor Volokh, for continuing to allow this moron to remind us that trash like Drackman exists for the sole purpose of reminding us what garbage looks like.
Why would we need him for that when we've got you?
Isn’t that cute? The No. 1 sleazebag on VC sends his big brother to defend him because he too scared to come out of the basement to try to defend himself. And, of course, Professor Volokh’s silence is deafening as his blog gets dragged deeper and deeper into the sewer.
I can't say there aren't other contenders than you for being the #1 sleazebag, but you're in the running.
You Hate Me!!!! You Really Hate Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂 🙂
If he won't I will.
I went by Costco to today they've got the Kirkland 92 proof small batch bourbon available again for 19.99, at least in Nevada.
I probably couldn't afford it in Washington or Oregon with their liquor taxes, although I might need it more.
Your mischaracterizations of Trump's speech and actions in January of 2017 are utter bullshit.
WHY would you be wary of that? It seems almost trivially obvious that it's true.
You do understand that Trump's speech could, in no way, have incited the riot at the Capitol, which began before his speech was over, and besides was premeditated on the part of other people, right? Not just as a matter of law, but as a simple matter of fact!
You could argue that it was, in SOME sense, 'incited' by earlier statements of his, but those statements were far too remote from the actual riot to constitute incitement under the law.
Further, were you to expand incitement law sufficiently to capture Trump's speech, how many Democrats would be liable for inciting the many huge, destructive, and deadly riots during Trump's time in office?
I realize you're not concerned about your guys being judged under the same standard. But you should be.
Except it DID incite the riot, having laid the groundwork with all the lies about the election been stolen, of course.
‘how many Democrats would be liable for inciting the many huge, destructive, and deadly riots during Trump’s time in office?’
None. You can whine about that all you want, but ‘same standard’ has to have some actual meaning outside your efforts to defend Trump with whatever weak sauce is available to you.
You're a moron.
You're a Trump defender who doesn't even like Trump, supposedly.
OK, I'm pretty sure Senescent Joe's grabbing of Eva Longoria's Tit yesterday (not gonna link the video, it's out there) is a violation of:
18 U.S. Code § 2244 - Abusive sexual contact
Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency, knowingly engages in or causes sexual contact with or by another person, if so to do would violate—
sexual contact
(3) the term “sexual contact” means the intentional touching, either directly or through the clothing, of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
INDICTMENT: Senescent Joe, did, on June 15, 2023, in Washington DC, did initiate Sexual Contact with a Citizen of the US, Eva Longoria, to wit, Senescent Joe "Copped a Feel" (grabbed the Right Breast) with an intent to gratify the sexual desire of any person.
Frank (esq)
I am unfamiliar with the event you describe. What brings it within ¨the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency¨? (The special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States is defined by 18 U.S.C. § 7.)
Your draft indictment would be promptly dismissed on motion.
Last time I checked the District of Columbia was "Within the Territorial Jurisdiction of the United States" (Boy, is it within the Jurisdiction, commit a little misdemeanor trespassing, get 20 years in Federal Fuck-Me-in-the-Ass Prison)
And your "Law License", does it have Count Chocula or Frankenberry on it?
Frank
The term "special maritime and territorial jurisdiction" is expressly defined in 18 U.S.C. § 7. It has meaning that you are clearly ignorant of. You have to deal with that, not your handwaving (and mistaken) assumptions about jurisdiction generally.
This is the sort of sloppy thinking that separates actual lawyers from fourth grade Frankie.
Can't a citizen of Virginia (a private prosecution state) bring the charges?
What charges?
Trying to destroy the universe with the Infinity Gauntlet, if I recall correctly.
I have been following with interest not guilty's cogent commentary. I see little to fault in it. It reads like eminently practical counsel from an extremely experienced attorney. But I still worry a bit.
Politics is the method American constitutionalism decrees to manage the public affairs of the nation. Political crimes are a thing. Espionage, insurrection, and treason are political crimes. Failure to concede a lost election is not a political crime, but that ought to be corrected, lest defeated candidates who take that practice to extremes become a means to fuel a contest to overturn the People's sovereignty.
My concern is that a prosecutorial approach which shirks the political aspects of what amounts to an ongoing existential attack on American constitutionalism might serve to punish certain perpetrators, but inadequately defend American constitutionalism. I understand why wisdom might counsel that a moment of extreme political instability is the wrong time to goad those who intend the instability, and hope to flourish by it. I wonder if not guilty has struggled as I do to decide whether wisdom might instead counsel the opposite.
For all the lip service coming from the Justice Department, Trump has been treated as if he were above the law, or at least above the parts of the law which govern political crimes. I do not share the widespread confidence of many commenters on this blog that Trump is so inept or deranged that no one need fear his often repeated intent to overturn American constitutionalism, and to punish after seizing power all those who stood in his way.
I would prefer that the Justice Department made it explicitly evident that it too is concerned about that, and intends to manage its prosecutions accordingly, with due attention to the explicitly political nature of some of the crimes it now investigates.
"For all the lip service coming from the Justice Department, Trump has been treated as if he were above the law, or at least above the parts of the law which govern political crimes."
But, this is normal, the abnormal thing is that he actually got prosecuted. "Important" people in Washington ARE above the law, as a matter of long established practice. I think that sucks, it has no actual legal or constitutional basis, but it's still true.
Bill didn't get prosecuted for his multiple crimes, of which perjury was just the start. Hillary didn't get prosecuted for her reckless handling of classified information, and destruction of evidence under subpoena. Remember Berger getting sent into the National Archives to remove and destroy potentially embarrassing documents, and getting a slap on the wrist?
The only thing out of the ordinary here is that they're actually denying Trump his "important person" immunity to the law.
Now, if this meant that the "important person" exception to our laws was going away, great! But it's probably just more TrumpLaw, as you can see from Hunter's glaring immunity.
“Important” people in Washington ARE above the law, as a matter of long established practice
Naw, dude. I mean, money and power do buy a bit of justice, which sucks. But your blanket above the law has lots of counterexamples. You just don't wanna see them because your last bastion seems to be the laughable Trump did nothing abnormal.
'The only thing out of the ordinary here is that they’re actually denying Trump his “important person” immunity to the law.'
So, he's guilty, or at least there is sufficent evidence to charge him. The rest is special whining and appeals to cyncism.
Washington has internalized the phrase "it's not the crime, it's the cover-up" for ~50 years now. Trump thought he was above that basic precept.
If he'd simply allowed his lawyers to search all the boxes he retained and hand over all responsive contents bearing classification markings to the DOJ, we wouldn't be here. The DOJ would have said "Thanks Mr. President" and the matter wiould have disappeared without much comment.
That's how Washington actually operates. It bends the rules in some cases, yes. But if the powerful blatantly thumb their nose at the rules - written and unwritten - the hammer comes down.
And Trump wasn't smart enough to get away with it. He was frankly kinda stupid about it, because his ego >> his brain.
Well you're certainly experienced with being Stupid.
And there's no coverup with Senescent Joe giving Eva Longoria's melons a squeeze, you'd think maybe an apology would be in order, but then again, this is Sleepy Joe, and the Marxist Stream Media will cover it about as much as Hunter Biden's felonies (Go ahead, "Counsel" tell me how falsifying ATF form 4473 isn't a felony)
Frank
It's nice that your fourth-grade fantasies about alleged soft-core pr0n videos get you off. Hope you're having fun talking to yourself.
Alleged? Lol Biden groping Eva's tits is all over the internet.
So is the video of Hunter Biden abusing a minor and the Hilary face-carving video.
Does Biden still take naked swims in front of a female Secret Service agent? Showers with his daughter?
Do you guys still desperately try to change the subject every time someone says something you don't like?
Learned from the masters.
You are master baiters.
...and you are a cunning linguist (beside being a bigger ass wipe than your bud SarcastrO).
One hates to boast.
OK, YOU tell us how falsifying ATF form 4473 isn’t a felony.
No YOU tell ME by continuing to change the subject.
It obviously isn't when you're the POTUS's only begotten son
edgeboy mad that Don Jr is still a free man
"A single jury in the District of Columbia could make a finding of guilt that could place Trump's ability to run for re-election in doubt."
No matter what the prosecutor's intentions I think the United States can not convict Trump under 18 USC 2383 before January 20, 2025. Major cases take major time. Trump likes to throw sand in the gears. With two unrelated felony trials planned Trump has a legitimate need for more time than a defendant who only faces one set of charges.
The existing Florida charges are more serious than hypothetical insurrection charges. Insurrection has a statutory maximum of ten years. The guidelines sentence for the Florida charges is about ten years. The statutory maximum is 400 years.
Concealing a document in a federal investigation, 18 USC 1519, is more serious than armed rebellion. Thanks, Congress.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
I think that I'll just leave this here.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/levin-if-relevant-law-applied-to-trump-bill-clinton-would-be-doing-50-years-with-his-wife
"This precedent [originated from] an Obama judge (Berman Jackson) trying to help Clinton in 2012, and the Department of Justice should know all about it. And so should the National Archives. It was the case involving the socks – the sock drawer and Judicial Watch."
Levin offered a synopsis of the Clinton socks case, and concluded that Jackson did not look to the Espionage Act – as Special Counsel Jack Smith has prescribed in Trump's case – but instead the Presidential Records Act -- "or Clinton would be doing 50 years with his wife by now."
Hillary Clinton had her own run-in with the mishandling of classified information – on a private server in her Hudson Valley home, which eventually led then-FBI Director James Comey to recommend against charging her, unlike Trump.
"[Berman Jackson] says the responding agency, the National Archives -- the tapes were Mr. Clinton's personal records, therefore not subject to the Presidential Records Act or the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). The government's position was that Congress had decided the president and the president alone decides what is presidential record and what isn't."
"which eventually led then-FBI Director James Comey to recommend against charging her, unlike Trump."
yeah, Jimmy Comey saved Hilary Rodman's Bacon, and yet, he was slammed by the lefty's for "torpedoing" Hilary's Erection!?!? what? they wanted her charged?? I was happy "45" let it go, if she'd run in 0-20 he'd still be POTUS now, no matter how much the DemoKKKrat's cheat.
Frank
Comey was given the corrupt job of clearing Clinton regardless of her guilt, and thought he could salve his conscience by splitting the difference, by sparing her prosecution while making clear her criminality. All he accomplished was pissing off both sides.
Why the fuck would Judge Berman Jackson "look to the Espionage Act" in a civil suit by a grifter organization (without standing) against the National Archives? Bill Clinton could have stolen the nuclear launch codes and sold them to North Korea, and it wouldn't have had anything at all to do with the lawsuit that Judge Berman Jackson presided over.
Professor Blackman shares two traits with Joan Biskupic: An abiding interest in gossip about legal powers that be, and (since the death of RBG in Joan’s case), a complete lack of access to anyone connected to those powers, resorting to desperate speculations to maintain an illusion of possessing inside information.