The Volokh Conspiracy
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How America's Growing Diversity Weakens the Case for Racial Preferences in Education
Affirmative action becomes harder to defend when it entails discrimination against a variety of racial and ethnic minority groups.
The Supreme Court will soon issue its decisions in cases challenging the legality of racial preferences in admission at Harvard and the University of North Carolina. Most likely, the justices will rule that such policies are either categorically illegal or at least subject to much tighter judicial scrutiny than imposed by previous precedents. But, even aside from legal considerations, there is a different factor that has weakened the case for affirmative action preferences over the last several decades. Ironically, that factor is America's growing racial and ethnic diversity.
There is a simple standard rationale for affirmative action, dating back to its origins in the 1960s: America has a long history of horrific discrimination against some of its minority groups, especially blacks and Native Americans. If not for that history, those groups would be better off than they are now. Whites, by contrast, have often benefited from that discrimination (call it "white privilege," if you will). Thus, justice requires some form of compensation to the groups that have been wronged, at the expense of those that have unjustly benefited. Various types of carefully targeted racial preferences can help provide that compensation, and enable us to achieve a more just society.
This rationale is far from air-tight. Among other weaknesses, it is wrong to assume that most whites are beneficiaries of slavery, Jim Crow, and other historical wrongs. Many were actually harmed by it (albeit, less so than blacks, of course). Some of the white victims of affirmative action policies are even members of groups that themselves faced extensive discrimination at various times. Jews are an obvious example, given the once- widespread discrimination against Jewish students at many elite educational institutions.
Still, the traditional rationale for affirmative action is compelling in some ways. Most notably, it is undeniably true that slavery, segregation, and other forms of state-sponsored discrimination inflicted terrible harm on black Americans, and some other groups. Absent that history, we would likely have fewer racial conflicts and less racial inequality today.
But, as conservative political commentator Christopher Caldwell explains in a recent New York Times article, the traditional rationale has been weakened by America's increasing racial and ethnic diversity, most notably the growing role of Asian-Americans in higher education:
Affirmative action is on a shaky footing not just because the composition of the [Supreme] court has changed but also because the composition of the country has changed. Demography has caused the moral ground to fall out from under the policy….
Affirmative action dates from executive orders issued by Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. The policy was meant to help Black people at a time when the country was effectively biracial, with white people outnumbering Black people by a ratio of about seven to one…..
[B]ecause white people constituted an overwhelming majority, the number of white applicants disadvantaged by affirmative action was relatively low… And advantages were being redistributed from descendants of the former oppressor race (white people) to descendants of the former oppressed race (Black people)….
That has changed. The arrival of large numbers of immigrants over the past half-century has upset the logic of affirmative action in several ways. For one thing, white Americans no longer dominate the educational system. (They make up only 22 percent of the Stanford class of 2026, for instance.) Early on, affirmative action was also extended to Latinos, whose numbers continue to grow. In addition, African and Caribbean immigrants and their children now account for more than 40 percent of the Black enrollment in the Ivy League, which risks crowding out the people that affirmative action was originally intended to help….
More than any other development, though, the enormous rise in Asian immigration since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 has complicated the administration of affirmative action. The complication, simply put, is that Asian students, on average, have been considerably more qualified for college than students of other groups….
Students for Fair Admissions presents evidence (which Harvard disputes) that Asian enrollment stalled because Harvard tweaked its admissions system to keep Asian students out. Citing internal Harvard documents, Students for Fair Admissions argues that if Harvard pursued a neutral admissions policy focused on academics alone, its incoming classes might have been more than half Asian.
Harvard did a number of things with Asian applicants differently from other applicants…
When majorities discriminate against their own kind, as largely white universities did in the early days of affirmative action, it may not feel like a bad kind of discrimination…. But the biracial historical context that used to tug at consciences, pushing admissions officers (and the parents of rejected students) to a more indulgent understanding of affirmative action, is gone….
[T]he United States has become a multiracial country, and affirmative action has turned into a different kind of program. Building diverse student bodies now requires treating Asian overrepresentation as a problem to be solved. This means discriminating by race in a way that is radically more direct and intrusive.
As Asians have become increasingly prominent among the victims of affirmative action, it becomes more difficult to argue that the policy is just redistributing ill-gotten gains from a group that has benefited from oppression to those harmed by it. Asians themselves, of course, have a history of being victims of discrimination in the US, from racist immigration policy to Japanese internment, among many other examples.
The beneficiary class has also been expanded to include groups far removed from the horrific history of slavery, Jim Crow, and persecution of Native Americans. Many are post-1965 Hispanic, African, and Caribbean immigrants, or children thereof. These groups have surely suffered some prejudice and discrimination. But not on anything like the enormous scale of victims of slavery, Jim Crow, and the forcible displacement of Native Americans.
To the extent that the rationale for racial preferences has shifted from alleviating historical injustice to promoting "diversity," current policies have other flaws. I summarized some of them in a Boston Globe article about the Harvard-UNC cases:
The racial categories used by Harvard, UNC, and many other universities are remarkably crude. The "Hispanic" or "Latino" category lumps together such varied groups as Argentinians, Cubans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans. "Asian" encompasses more than half the world's population, including Chinese, Indians, and Japanese. Arabs, native-born white Protestants, and Swedish immigrants are all classified as "white." "African American" includes both native-born Black Americans and immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean. Such sweeping and arbitrary classifications amount to little more than crude racial stereotyping of a kind courts would reject in almost any other context. They certainly don't reflect any carefully nuanced assessment of different groups' distinct characteristics or potential contributions to educationally useful diversity.
Perhaps Harvard, UNC and other institutions could fix these problems by applying the "diversity" rationale in a more nuanced way. But I am skeptical that real-world government and educational bureaucracies are capable of doing so fairly and accurately. Moreover, it is dangerous to provide an open-ended rationale for a vast range of racial and ethnic preferences.
Alternatively, we can try to reinvigorate the compensatory justice rationale for affirmative action by confining it to American descendants of slaves (ADOS) and perhaps also some Native Americans, such as those living on reservations. This latter option might even potentially avoid the use of racial preferences, as such. But it has a variety of potential pitfalls of its own.
The problems Caldwell highlights are not as completely new as he suggests. The truth is that the US has never been a purely "biracial" country. Even before recent waves of Asian and Latino immigration, there were substantial populations of those groups - descendants of 19th and early-twentieth century immigrants and Hispanics living in territories the US acquired after the Mexican War. Native Americans have, of course, been present in large numbers since before the Founding. And, obviously, white Americans have long been divided into a wide range of ethnic and religious groups that make it hard to lump all of them into a single "privileged" class. But even if not completely new, the growing diversity of the last several decades has weakened the case for affirmative action programs and made it even harder than before to structure them in a way that is plausibly just.
I think the best way to address these problems is simply to bar racial and ethnic preferences in government and government-funded educational institutions. I advocate a similar hard line against forms of racial and ethnic discrimination supported by many on the political right (e.g. - racial profiling in law enforcement, and discrimination in immigration policy).
But those more supportive of affirmative action than I am should at least give careful consideration to the challenges created by an increasingly diverse society. When a policy originally intended to compensate blacks for a long history of oppression has gradually morphed into efforts to cap the number of Asian students at selective universities, something has gone badly wrong.
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The white supremacist, roundly bigoted conservatives who constitute this blog's core audience, and the Federalist Society law professors who cultivate that bigoted audience with their white, male, right-wing blog, aren't going to like that.
Say "white male right wing" again motherfucker. I fucking dare you.
I don't think much of bluster from white, male, right-wing culture war roadkill. These losers are all-talk cowards. They deserve to be mocked, disdained, dismissed, and replaced.
I figured you wouldn't get the Pulp Fiction reference. Lighten up, asshole.
"The Reverend" Sandusky played too much football without his helmet on.
I recognized it. I also diagnosed you as a bitter, disaffected, broadly intolerant clinger.
Shouldn't you ask for his pronouns first?
While we're playing doctor (without my consent, which your tribe is wont to do), I've diagnosed you with being an insufferable asshole who clings to his tribal identity because he has nothing else in life and has nothing else to do with his life except to come here and yell at clouds.
Identifying and mocking bigots doesn't take much time at this blog.
Most of this blog's fans seem to be bigots of various stripes -- racists, misogynists, white supremacists, antisemites, immigrant haters, Islamophobes, gay-bashers, etc. -- and that seems to just the audience the law professors who operate this blog target as an audience.
Lord, don't I know: you're such an easy target, AIDS because you're a blithering idiot who, like many Americans, couches yourself in the language of reason and enlightenment, when you're IN FACT too stupid, ignorant and uneducated to even be able to identify your own hypocrisy and illogical positions. THAT, let alone your failure to understand the implications of your own dogmas. You're too dumb to even understand why your prejudices aren't at all progress.
As just one example, you keep regurgitating the charge of Islamophobia, when you're demonstrated, time and again, why you 'suffer' from said 'phobia'. Any sincere Muslim can see that you are the mortal enemy of her faith.
Where do your grandkids go to school, AIDS?
it's spelled "Klinger", Coach
and don't give up, even though the murderer Teddy K (hmm, could be misunderstood, Ted Kazinksi, not Ted Kennedy) just assumed room temperature, you've still got a few years of eligibility left, just have somebody give S-S-S-S-S-S-tuttering John Fetterman a few Jolts and get your commutation package going,
Frank
AIDS, have you purchased cemetery plots for your grandkids yet?
You understand that those America white, make right-wingers WILL Breivik them, yeah? Your culture war will turn hot. It's your fault.
NOW, where do your grandkids go to school again?
So you're admitting that your generation (and your immediate off-spring generation), will fail and it'll be up to your grandchildren to complete your work.
Sounds about right. . . .
Yeah, THAT must have been what Anders Breivik was thinking...
Well, that explains everything doesn't it? At last, a grand unifying theory of how American works!!
HBCUs exist! Affirmative action is counterproductive when the best college for black STEM students is Xavier of NO!! Donate to HBCUs so they can be free everything and forget about affirmative action. And then prepare to defend HBCUs ability to give preferences to black applicants because once they offer a good value whites will demand access to them.
About half of the HBCU are so badly mismanaged that they are in serious trouble. Trump bailed them all out -- and didn't get credit for it - but like any business, if they don't have sound management, they ain't gonna make it....
Just focus on the top 10. Xavier of NO graduates students from underperforming schools with STEM degrees.
"Trump bailed them all out — and didn’t get credit for it..."
Maybe not.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/27/donald-trump/trumps-exaggerated-claim-he-saved-hbcus-2019-fundi/
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/23/trumps-claim-about-saving-hbcus-was-false-his-administration-has-largely-backed
Do you ever have anything useful to add to the actual discussion? Or is your entire life devoted solely to attacking the authors and users of this site?
No, Artie never has anything relevant to say, and he obviously doesn't have a life.
The Volokh Conspirators don’t have much to say about Donald Trump lately. Prof. Volokh, in particular, has changed his position on whether in-American disgrace John Eastman is interesting or noteworthy.
Cowards.
Partisan hacks.
Culture war casualties.
Kirkland, please explain the benefits of this purported "White privilege."
White guys like him get to sexually assault teenagers for years without punishment.
-No one talking about how genetically or culturally inferior you are
-No driving while black
-As a child, less punished in school for the same offenses
-Even if poor, have better health outcomes in my nearest hospital. and in hospitals generally.
-No 'rep sweats' when you are the default in media
You left out having pubic hair on " dey Haid's"
“…justice requires some form of compensation to the groups that have been wronged, at the expense of those that have unjustly benefited.”
So, let’s start benefitting those wronged groups at the expense of the white groups by expropriating the Somins and using the resultant capital to fund welfare benefits. They look pretty white to me.
"Asians" (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans) do well because "Asians" come from societies that have a long history of inventiveness and productivity. Hard work is emphasized as is technical education.
Current "blacks" don't do well because they are raised in fatherless households dependent and dependent on state payments. Getting rich quick and seeking handouts is emphasized. Education is not a priority.
Don't overgeneralize. There are plenty of each ethnicity who do not fit your stereotypes.
I concur - that was a gross overgeneralization. Much of the "Asian" advantage can actually be traced to the fact that many in that category are still second-generation immigrants. Behavioral expectations and norms have some correlation with culture but they have even stronger correlations with the immigration decision itself.
Consider, for example, the personality trait of risk tolerance/aversion. Those who emigrate from their home country have already demonstrated an above-average acceptance of risk. They are statistically more entrepreneurial, self-sufficient and likely to value hard work. They often (but not always) pass that risk tolerance on to their children - but that trait gets diluted with each generation. By the third or fourth generation, there are very few population groups that have maintained cultural attitudes that are statistically different from the surrounding culture.
"I concur – that was a gross overgeneralization."
What is the right amount of "generalization"? Maybe you should take it up with the statistics that show this reality. What **in particular** in my comment is not supported my statistical reality?
There's also what you are fleeing.
East Asians have an average IQ of around 105 and American blacks average around 85, iirc. Maybe that's an advantage?
If you're going to complain about overgeneralization you ought to start with: "“…justice requires some form of compensation to the groups that have been wronged, at the expense of those that have unjustly benefited.”
Don't "overgeneralize"? Should I "undergeneralize" or just try to find the Goldilocks zone of generalization? Please tell me, comment officer.
I largely agree with Ilya's take and, like many, would prefer to see more effort to enroll, and support, students from low-income and underprivileged backgrounds.
But there is something strange about the whole emphasis on the Ivies. When it comes to American higher education they are a sideshow. They have about 70,000 undergraduates total. Texas A&M by itself has 56,000, about as many as Alabama and Auburn combined. Lots of state universities are in the 25K-35K range.
If we are serious about improving educational opportunities - across the board - the state schools are where the action is.
"whole emphasis on the Ivies"
The have a vastly disproportionate impact on the US. Law, large business, arts, politics, journalism.
Even baseball:
MLB | NBC SPORTS Select Team Subscribe:
Report: 43% of top baseball ops employees are Ivy Leaguers
By Craig Calcaterra Jun 30, 2020, 11:33 AM EDT
"Joon Lee of ESPN reports today that, based on a study conducted by him and ESPN, the percentage of Ivy League graduates who are MLB team’s top baseball operations’ employees — be they titled GMs or Vice Presidents or whatever — has risen from just 3% in 2001 to 43% today."
Remember what "A&M" stands for.
It was because of the issues you raised that we founded first the Normal Schools (teacher's colleges) and then the Land Grant Colleges. And many of the HBCU started as the "separate but equal" mandate of the 3rd Land Grant Act.
And the easiest way for Harvard and Yale to improve access to education for descendants of slaves would take 2 steps:
1. All of Epstein’s donations go to HBCUs
2. Harvard and Yale decline all donations until $2 billion is raised for HBCU endowments and those donations come with the same benefits as donations directly to Harvard and Yale.
I'm sorry, but most of the HBCU are on the level of Community Colleges, and not very good ones. They have the same problem as the Negro Baseball League did after Jackie Robinson -- all their best talent goes to the major leagues.
Realistically, their whole reason for existing was racial discrimination at other schools, and when that stopped, what was the point? But institutions don't just up and admit that their reason for being has expired, and it's time to close up shop.
They don't call them Historically Bad Colleges and Universities for nothing.
If we want access to elite positions, the Ivies accept no substitute. Honestly not even all of them.
Really it should be all 3:
-Democratize access to elite positions so it’s not all Harvard Yale.
-Work to make access to Harvard Yale actually meritocratic.
-Work to make access to other higher educational opportunities more available.
If we want access to elite positions, the Ivies accept no substitute.
But that's a big part of the problem.
Somehow these few schools have been anointed to decide who gets a shot at elite positions. And here's another part of the problem. While only a small percentage of applicants get in, a much larger percentage are probably perfectly capable of doing the academic work, even excelling, and graduating. That seems odd.
Lazy credentialism seems a surprisingly hard tradition to break.
Why are you guys criticizing our strong, liberal-libertarian schools?
Name one.
You can't have meritocratic and AA at the same time.
"If we are serious about improving educational opportunities – across the board – the state schools are where the action is."
Bernard,
In terms of making the biggest difference to the underserved, you are certainly correct and your point extends down to the second tier state of state colleges and universities.
In terms of symbolic impact the most elite schools focus the national attention on the questions of "what is the present problem?'' and "what should be done about it"
Reality is that the Black illegitimacy rate is now 76%.
That is a fact.
I always argue the State perfected generational dependency on the blacks and are no applying their methods to the rest of us.
Look at the trajectory of White fatherless homes. Only a decade or two behind the blacks.
Broken families and broken people are dependent people. Generational dependence breeds people with the "souls of slaves"(to quote The Richest Man in Babylon".
The model for the State is problem creation/solution promise. It's how they accumulate power.
AKA the exceptions that prove the rule.
“Racial profiling in law enforcement” is “supported by many on the political right”?
I’ve never heard anyone endorse racial profiling—at least not as defined in the article to which Somin links (“Racial profiling occurs when law enforcement officers treat members of one racial group worse than they would be treated in the same situation if they belonged to another group. If a police officer stops, searches, or arrests a black person when a white person in the same situation would be left alone, that’s a case of racial profiling").
To be clear, if an at-large murder suspect has been identified by witnesses as a middle-white male driving from the murder scene east on I-80 in a blue Ford Mustang, I don’t think it would constitute to “racial profiling” to effect an investigative detention on a white male driving a blue Ford Mustang while ignoring every Black male driving a blue Ford Mustang in the same vicinity. To be sure, a white driver in that situation is “treated worse” than Black drivers “in the same situation,” but only because he matches the description of a murderer---not because he was “profiled.”
On the contrary, there are a large number of people (including commenters here) who argue that the fact that blacks are convicted of more crimes per capita justifies stopping blacks for questioning at a greater rate on that basis alone.
I will concede that I've not heard any reasonable person here argue for arresting or even searching a suspect on that basis alone but there are people who honestly support racial profiling during the initial investigation phase of a police action.
Their belief is sincerely held and there is even some statistical merit to the argument that race alone has some small predictive power. I disagree with their conclusion because I believe the adverse social consequences of such profiling outweigh the predictive benefits. But that's not the same as denying that they and their arguments exist.
Huh? If black people commit more crimes, and people who commit crimes are more likely to get stopped, then of course black people will be stopped for questioning at a higher rate. They will also get stopped at a higher rate because they match descriptions of criminals.
Do you have any examples of people arguing that black people should be stopped at a higher rate simply because they are black?
people who commit crimes are more likely to get stopped, then of course black people will be stopped for questioning at a higher rate.
Where is this "of course" coming from? Sure, if you have a description you want to stop those who fit it, but I don't think that's the complaint. The complaint is with random stops. But whatever the statistics say, I agree with Rossami that profiling those is a bad idea.
Look, there are lots of things we prohibit that might make it easier to catch and convict criminals. We have all those silly Constitutional Amendments, for example. We have those prohibitions because we don't think any reduction in crime rartes would be worth the cost.
"The complaint is with random stops. But whatever the statistics say, I agree with Rossami that profiling those is a bad idea."
Who, according to you and Rossami, is arguing otherwise?
Iowatwo
He's not arguing that in this thread. Do you have a link?
Literally right below this.
Nah, he doesn’t say anything like that.
But #I# will say that when deciding who to stop while looking for criminals it is perfectly OK to take the racial profile of the criminality at issue into account.
But, no, “random stops” are not the issue. Comparatively few stops are truly random.
I've seen lots of comments here that make the statistical justification for racial profiling in random stops.
Would you care to link to one?
No you haven't. In order to justify a traffic stop, police officers must have probable cause, or at least reasonable suspicion, that a driver has violated some law or traffic code. But of course a good estimate of the reasonableness of a suspicion ought to include taking race into account since it DOES affect the probability that the suspicion is correct. But that calculation also means that the stop won't be "random".
Yeah, and they can only shoot a fleeing suspect if they're a clear and present danger to someone.
Sorry dude, but your middle-school civics lessons --like basically everything you learned in K-12-- was a simplified model that doesn't actually match the real world in a lot of important ways.
So... why do you think law enforcement officers should be able to take race into account due to racial statistics but admissions officers can't?
I must beg pardon, but this seems to tie back-in to the original blog post topic:
If this is the line we like --only explicitly stated intent is a line too far-- then I think Harvard and the other Ivy Leagues are fine.
who argue that the fact that blacks are convicted of more crimes per capita justifies stopping blacks for questioning at a greater rate on that basis alone.
As compared to radical leftist that want to ban guns from law abiding citizens, because most of the gun deaths are black on black crime.
Willing to violate the civil rights of gun owners is considered 'acceptable', but we cannot isolate blacks as the instigator of black on black crime.
I love how White people can be guilty and punished for White privilege, but it's inconceivable to do the same for blacks.
"On the contrary, there are a large number of people (including commenters here) who argue that the fact that blacks are convicted of more crimes per capita justifies stopping blacks for questioning at a greater rate on that basis alone."
That is a gross misrepresentation:
What we argue is that it justifies the fact that they get stopped a greater rate. They live in high crime neighborhoods, of course the police stop people at a greater rate in high crime neighborhoods. The higher rate is a natural and innocent consequence of living in a high crime neighborhood.
I live in a low crime neighborhood, but mixed race. I'd consider it an outrage if my black neighbors got stopped by police HERE disproportionately often, just because blacks are committing crime at a high rate somewhere 10 miles away.
Right, so when you're looking for a mid-20s black male the proper thing to do is stop and question people in proportion with the census.
Lotta people not using profiling as Rossami was:
the fact that blacks are convicted of more crimes per capita justifies stopping blacks for questioning at a greater rate on that basis alone.
iowatwo is into it: "Willing to violate the civil rights of gun owners is considered ‘acceptable’, but we cannot isolate blacks as the instigator of black on black crime."
Somin is probably referring to the fact that many on the right support increased scrutiny on Muslims or Middle Easterners (aside from Israel) as part of terrorism concerns.
yeah, not alot of Swedish Lutherans flying jets into buildings.
No, it's not remotely plausible that he's referring solely to that.
Affirmative action is the most extreme form of racial profiling ever used in this country. So the people against profiling mean its only bad when it embarrasses or upsets, but its just fine and good when it pleases (even though as a zero sum game racial preferences by definition harm whites in major ways that a mere traffic stop never can hurt a black).
A breathtakingly stupid and offensive comment, even by this blog's standards.
Which Federalist Society chapter are you president of, RTL212?
Who cares if you're offended, AIDS??? You don't even deserve to live.
Where do your grandkids go to school, totalitarian twit?
It’s not as breathtakingly stupid or offensive as your continued repetitiousness.
“Most” is going a bit far, but “affirmative action”(sic) is routinely an an extreme and offensive form of racial profiling and discrimination.
Quit whining, clingers.
Said like a former (Disgraced) College Foo-bawl coach. Don't try to make me "Drop and give you 20" "Coach" Unlike you, I saw Pulp Fiction, and have a Samarai Sword
Quit posting garbage, target practice.
Umm...any other sophisticated arguments to explain how affirmative action is not racial profiling?
Remember that the original "racial profile" involved a state trooper in the Carolinas back in the '80s when all the cocaine was coming in through Miami and then going up I-95 to NYC.
He "profiled" the typical drug courier as a fancy car with a NY or NJ plate, driving late at night -- and by a young Black male. He had more which I forget, but the big ones were NY/NJ plate and late at night (because of travel time from Miami). Well, how far was this from probable cause -- and remember that he didn't know the race of the driver until he stopped the car.
So how far was this from probable cause?
Bing: "Probable cause means there is concrete evidence of a crime, while reasonable suspicion means there is a probability or appearance of a crime based on observation or behavior."
I mean, the problem of blood quantum for Native Americans, for one thing. Hey, you like talking about arbitrary racial classifications by the government, that’s a topic you should tackle. Like, seriously. And unlike a lot of your obsession with racial classifications, that one’s part of an actual conspiracy to take away rights, rather then just incidentally making things weird.
To the topic at hand, though…
Look, all the SCOTUS justices are Ivy League educated. If you think they’re going to sign onto a ruling that forces Harvard to go half-Asian on it’s next incoming class, you’re an idiot. My prediction is that, like very time before, they’re going to say “this plan is bad” but leave open the door for the next plan because while SCOTUS is historically uneasy with whatever the ivy leagues come up with, they’re even more uneasy with a strictly-meritorious scheme.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this time they’ll finally say that any plan that has as it’s objective making the student body more “diverse” or “representative” or what-have-you is illicit. But I don’t think it’s unfair of me to be super skeptical.
Whatever they do, it won't be because of their Ivy backgrounds. If anything, whites in the Ivy schools are the source of some of the worst racial stereotyping preferences.
When I taught at UCLA, the class of the engineering school was 60% Asian. That did not harm UCLA, not in the slightest.
Cool story bro, but I'm not sure how that's relevant seeing as I said nothing about harms. I just said such a change is something that SCOTUS isn't going to mandate.
Who said there's anything wrong with a 60% Asian class?
The problem comes when your class is 60% Asian and 40% white.
ACB is NOT Ivy League.
But I fear you are right.
Caught me on that one. I forgot she's our lone current SCOTUS justice who didn', instead going to the very salt-of-the-Earth Notre Dame.
Which is to say, yeah, not "Ivy League". But still very-much "elite".
The Nuremberg laws were pretty good at this sort of racism, so why not plunge to the level of deciding who is a descendant ... and by the way, has anyone thought of the idea of how one proves it?
Why not just dump the statute of limitations against descendants of slave owners, and let some of the people who claim they're descendants sue them?
New topic, same old Ilya.
Ilya may be the best argument against immigration.
Because?
Always happy to screw us.
There isn’t and never was a case for racial preferences.
Preferences based on race are de facto illegal.
Oh Mr. Bumble, don't say "de facto illegal." It's not a good look.
"As Asians have become increasingly prominent among the victims of affirmative action, it becomes more difficult to argue that the policy is just redistributing ill-gotten gains from a group that has benefited from oppression to those harmed by it. "
Nonsense, they benefit from model-minority stereotyping, they are basically white, bananas if you will.
/sarc
Your comment reflects the problem of racial stereotyping. The author points out the great variety of cultural background of hispanics and Asians, and try to tell a Polish Catholic that they are just like a white Ashkenazi Jews.
All of these stereotypes are pernicious.
Anti-white isn't stereotyping, it's race hatred. It is not "more difficult to argue that the policy is just redistributing ill-gotten gains from a group that has benefited from oppression to those harmed by it”, it was ALWAYS garbage.
Do you think /sarc is a moniker lots of people sign off posts with?
The statement is exactly the vile logic used to continue the Democrat tradition of discrimination and pitting groups against one another.
Affirmative action based on “compensatory” theories never made sense for elite colleges. They systematically discriminated against Jews for 75 years, yet never adopted affirmative action for Jews. Yet blacks, who applied in tiny numbers to elite schools and where there was no history of discrimination, got massive privileges.
It would have made sense to have some version of affirmative action in state schools, particularly in those states where there was true evidence of discrimination, but it was instead converted into 250+ free SAT points at the best schools. When professors and data showed poor performance, it was called racism.
Jews, Irish and Italians and Poles suffered discrimination equivalent to Jim Crow for decades. They were never “compensated.” Worse, they have borne the brunt of affirmative action as much as Asians. Once discrimination ended -- and without affirmative action -- Jews were 20-28% of Ivies and other elite schools. Now its 10-12%. Did Jews get dumber? Or where they paying for students admitted ahead of them based on race?
Reference to “horrific slavery” is meaningless. It ended before cars, planes and washing machines. America is the only country on the planet where the majority fought a bloody war to protect and liberate a minority. It’s as if a majority of Germans fought the Nazis to liberate the Jews.
In 1960 blacks had an 80% two parent rate with children. Now its 27%. The so-called “legacy of slavery” did not do that.
AA has never been compensatory.
Oh! So you disagree with Somin that AA is one of the forms of compensation to those that have been wronged that justice requires?
Or is this another case where you never read the article?
Yes, I think he misstates the legal and much of the actual rationale behind AA.
Certainly these days.
Compensation has always been a major part of the rationale for "reverse" discrimination.
Correct. And when compensation turned into a BS idea they moved to "justice," and when that was too BS they moved to "diversity," and diversity stuck.
Yeah, Somin explicitly calls it such in this post, and links to other posts and articles (including some by other people!) that show the idea - using that specific term - has been widespread for decades.
Jews, Irish and Italians and Poles suffered discrimination equivalent to Jim Crow for decades.
This is simply false. There is no comparison.
It is true, just not in the USA.
Of course there’s a comparison to be made. Even more so for Red Indians and Chinese and Gypsies, which is why they came up in the 14A debates.
"America has a long history of horrific discrimination against some of its minority groups, especially blacks and Native Americans. If not for that history, those groups would be better off than they are now. Whites, by contrast, have often benefited from that discrimination (call it "white privilege," if you will)."
Bullshyte...
First and foremost you have got to remember that a *lot* of family fortunes were lost in the Depression. Hence the "better off than now" argument goes out the window.
But the percentage of Blacks who have immigrated from Africa and the Caribbean in the past 50 years exceeds those whose forebears were slaves. Remember too that it was AFRICANS who enslaved other Africans -- the White slave traders never left the coast.
So what we have now are the descendants of those who CAUSED slavery benefiting from this -- while the fact that one White male from the North died for every 100 slaves that were freed. If one of my great-great-grandfathers hadn't died in the war and if another hadn't lost his leg there, my family (theoretically) would also be far better off now.
So I want subrogation for the reparations.
And as to the Indians -- the only ones who didn't do well were those WHO WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF WARS -- the Indians who allied with the Americans wound up intermarrying and prospered along with the White society.
But the Depression shuffled the deck in a way we haven't seen since. At least not yet...
The elites do better when the people are poor and miserable.
That's all this is. It's a con by the elites. Look at how much more inequality we have the bigger the government gets.
The more the government taxes and spends, the poorer the masses become and the richer the elites become.
Well, of course.
Just the progressive income tax alone gives the government a huge incentive to increase income inequality, because even for the same total income, the tax yield is higher with more inequality, because you're shifting more of the pie into higher brackets.
Heck, even with a fixed rate, no progressive element at all, if you were running a dairy, which would you rather milk? One cow, or 10,000 mice?
Then you take into account the welfare and crony capitalism: It's cheaper to buy votes from poor people, and wealthy people have enough discretionary income to kick some of it back to politicians, but the people in the middle are a waste of skin so far as the politicians are concerned: Too well off to be grateful for a handout, too poor to hire your kid for a no show job.
The ideal population from their perspective is a lot of poor people on welfare, being paid to vote, and a few rich people paying you bribes not to sic the former on them.
Is it any wonder that the bigger the government gets, the more income inequality climbs? All the incentives government faces are to increase it.
Wow, I thought you were stupid before, but this one really takes the cake. This makes no sense whatsoever. For lots and lots of reasons, but the one that I hope you might be mentally able to understand is this: income inequality pushes many more people down the tax brackets than it pushes up.
Blacks caused slavery and the Civil War was transactional.
you weird bigot.
How did the slaves get from being free in Africa to being chained on a boat sailing to the New World?
do you know? Or do you think they magically teleported from their huts onto the boats?
All of Sub-Saharan Africa is at least 1000 feet above sea level -- it has no natural harbors so the slave traders NEVER left their ships -- the ship was the only way home.
Other AFRICANS sold them the slaves.
Correct. And when compensation turned into a BS idea they moved to "justice," and when that was too BS they moved to "diversity," and diversity stuck.
"Blacks caused slavery..."
Not just blacks, but many people involved on the African side were black. That's just a fact, Sarcastro.
Not what Ed said, and also pretty irrelevant to slavery, a fundamentally white supremecist institution.
You obviously don't know a single thing about world history if you think slavery is a white supremecist(sic) institution.
Sarcastr0 -- there were BLACK slave owners -- Kamalea Harris' great grandfather comes to immediate mind although it might interest you to look at what happened when slaves were freed in DC. They paid compensation to the slave owners -- but initially refused to pay it to the Black slave owners -- QED there WERE Black slave owners....
Ed a few outliers prove nothing other than you want to rationalize that slavery wasn’t racial.
It sure was and you sure are weird about it.
Fucking American moron. The Arab slave trade in Africa existed for about a millennium before the Europeans got seriously involved.
The Islamic slavers who took countless thousands of Hindus as slaves over the Hindu Kush weren’t white.
The Prophet Muhhamed (pbuh) owned slaves, and not because some Whitey told him to do so. Remember: he was a man of superlative virtue, who NEVER did anything immoral or wrong.
The slave trade in East Asia, long before European colonization, hadn’t anything to do with Whites.
The pre-colonized South American empires had slaves. Obviously they intuited that, several hundred years in the future, white people would come across the sea. And THAT’S the real reason why they, the local overlords, had implemented the institution of slavery in their own empires. So too the Indigenous peoples of North America: they only enslaved their war captives for centuries because they FORESAW that, one day, they’d be colonized by white people from Europe.
Do you have any FUCKING idea how much better the world would be, and how much smarter the world would be, if American imbeciles like yourself would just kill yourselves? Don’t you have any sense of global justice or social solidarity? Are you SO selfish that you won’t kill yourself to make the world a more rational, better place?
"Blacks caused slavery and the Civil War was transactional."
Whites alone causes slavery and the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.
Gaslightr0 always assumes that we are as ignorant as Artie says we are.
You are as ignorant as Artie says you are. This post is proof. Then again, all your posts are proof.
Whites, by contrast, have often benefited from that discrimination (call it "white privilege," if you will). Thus, justice requires some form of compensation to the groups that have been wronged, at the expense of those that have unjustly benefited.
What part of the Constitution does this comes from?
The part that has qualified immunity and asset forfeiture, I assume.
“… justice requires some form of GROUP compensation to the GROUPS that have been wronged, at the expense of those GROUPS that have unjustly benefited.”
I’ll be happy to let Somin pay my share of all the unjust benefits acquired by the GROUPS we have in common. Because whether I pay or he does doesn’t matter at the GROUP level, amIrite?
Thus, justice requires some form of compensation to the groups that have been wronged, at the expense of those that have unjustly benefited.
Since when is it justice to punish or reward entire classes of people?
That's straight up insane. Should we imprison all blacks for their high rates of violent crime?
Should all queers have to payback the healthcare system for their GBS or AIDS?
Should all White Democrat Women be punished for the gender genocide many are committing against their children?
Class based punishment and reward is obscene.
I have come around to AA even today the benefits outweigh the costs, though reasonable people can differ on that.
It is one tool among many to allow us to one day leverage our entire population’s talents.
I think you may be on to something (probably Mushrooms). America is probably better off with the 60-70 million fewer Afro-Amuricans (OK, you've got the 30-40 million black babies aborted, then you have to factor in how many babies the bee-otches would have had (average of 3.7 last time I checked) and the babies the babies of the bee-otches not aborted would have had, subtract those killed, )that resulted from Surpreme Hairy Black-man finding the right to kill unborn babies in the Penumbras of the Constitution.
I mean 70 million more black peoples?? there's too many now! (Global Warming! I'm against the Global Warming!)
Frank
What data on the costs and the benefits did you evaluate?
AA is prohibited by antii-discrimination laws.
Want to keep AA?
Repeal all anti-discrimination laws.
Is that what you want?
AA is in federal laws too though.
Did you consider that there is a reason why litigation is via the 14A not the CRA.
The only thing that could have instituted such racist systems of oppression that caused so much harm to so many people are the institutions of government.
Why is the party guilty of these crimes making people who aren't guilty of these crimes, the citizens, pay for the crimes the institutions of government committed?
Wouldn't justice demand the dismantling the systems of oppression and not punishing innocent people in some grand misdirection?
Anti-discrimination laws prohibit all racial preferences with zero exceptions.
Actual anti-discrimination laws would, but there is no truth in labeling requirement when it comes to the laws we have.
I will make the same comment here I made to Professor Bernstein’s post. If one accepts the framework that “diversity” is a compelling imterest in certain circumstances, then if a fair way to achieve it is impossible, it follows that the current categories are adequate. The whole point of a compelling interest is that it justifies being unfair. And only feasible kinds of tailoring need be considered in determining what constitutes narrow tailoring for constitutional purposes.
So a plaintiff arguing the current categories are unfair must provide alternative categories that are fair, or at least fairer. This means plaintiffs who come in claiming that there is no alternative, any categories would be unfair, plead themselves out of court. If there is no better alternative, then the current approach must be the narrowest tailoring feasible. And the narrowest tailoring feasible always passes the narrow tailoring prong of a compelling inteeest analysis. Arguing no method is fair is effectively arguing to uphold the current method.
Garbage in, garbage out.
“Diversity” is never a compelling interest compared with the right of American individuals to not be discriminated against on the basis of the favored categories.
Nice justification for racism there. Funny how you consider not judging people by race as a non-starter.
Where did my comment ever “consider” it? My argument that if you start with certain premises you have to reach certain conclusions nowhere stated an opinion on whether those premises were true or good.
And I understand that, for many commentators, arguments and logic just go completely over their heads.
Let’s just enjoy and applaud the prospect that Donald J. Trump — whom Fox News described as “the President of the United States” more than once this evening — may die in prison consequent to his un-American conduct.
How long before John Eastman is disbarred?
Carry on, clingers. From prison cells, in some cases. Without law licenses, in others.
Sunshine in America!
DA WALLS ARE CLOSING IN!
Let’s just enjoy and applaud the prospect that Donald J. Trump — whom Fox News described as “the President of the United States” more than once this evening — may die in prison consequent to his un-American conduct.
Let us never forget that the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) operated a private server where she stored classified e-mails.
Never forget that the Cunt®™ used BleachBit to wipe the hard drive of her e-maiol servers.
Never forget that the Cunt®™ smashed the smart phones with a hammer.
Never forget that the Cunt®™ commissioned a fake dossier that became the basis for the federal law enforcement establishment to give the illusion of credibility to her claim that Trump colluded with Russia®™ to steal the 2016 election.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
It was not just the political process that the Cunt®™ damaged.
She laid the foundation for the destruction of the credibility of the federal law enforcement establishment.
How long before John Eastman is disbarred?
did he do something like lie on a FISA warrant?
Good thing President Trump took her to trial for those crimes.
Oh wait a minute . . . .
Kirkland, the country will burn if Trump actually goes to prison.
Do you know what a martyr is???
Just sayin.....
Note that he has no problem with what Kevin Clinesmith did.
Open wider, clingers. Getting stomped by your betters in the culture war has consequences.
As this blog demonstrates, conservatives get to whine about it as much as you like. But the culture war’s right-wing casualties will continue to comply with the preferences of better Americans.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.
How's the sales of Transheiser Bush going?
Middle schoolers are tearing down Democrat flags now in schools and chanting "USA USA are my pronouns".
Conservatives predicted civil war if I was allowed to have a federally recognized marriage. But hey, maybe this time y'all are right.
After all, Trump called on his supporters to right and protest over his arrest, and we all saw the footage of the response.
Another thread sailing along merrily on a presumption that justice requires legally mandated meritocracy—without a moment's thought about the impossibility to define such a thing, or the political means to make it happen.
How about just enforcing anti-discrimination laws in an even-handed manner?
My wife's parents were both immigrants from Italy to Chile. The first language she learned in school was Italian. She is hispanic according to Fed.gov.
And, according to Somin, my “group” owes her money.
But maybe if YOU give her money the GROUP calculus will go the way he wants it to without raiding my accounts.
Or maybe Somin can give her blank checks. His groups are pretty much the same as mine.
You're actually missing the huge problem, the elephant in the room, and making these programs look more justified than is the case.
OK, let's say that generational guilt, corruption of the blood, was a real thing, and not constitutionally prohibited.
Actual affirmative action and reparation programs don't make any effort at all to confirm that a given beneficiary's ancestors were harmed, or that a given fall guy's ancestors had anything to do with harming him. Cost and benefit are parceled out on the basis of vaguely looking like the long dead victims and victimizers! (And not even very consistently on that basis; Some historical victim groups get lumped in with the victimizers; Sorry, Asian Americans!)
I grew up in Michigan, a free state where the only slavery had been practiced by Indian tribes. None of which I am related to. My ancestors all came from free countries well after the civil war. My wife is from the Philippines, our son has no actual historical link to discrimination in America AT ALL.
President Obama has more recent slave owning ancestors than anybody in MY family.
And yet, my son will be the designated fall guy, and his kids the designated beneficiaries, of these programs.
These programs aren't even making an effort to look like they're morally justified on some rational basis. They're just straight up racial spoils.
Except... neither Harvard nor UNC is running an "actual affirmative action or reparation program." They're running a diversity program. Diversity programs don't care about historical harms or generational guilt. It's just Harvard saying, we don't want to be 100% white and Asian. We want the whites and Asians attending Harvard to have an experience that includes non-white non-Asians.
“On the one hand, ‘diversity’ is code for ‘communism Marxism open borders.’ On the other hand, maybe we can use it to destroy affirmative action programs?”
This article is a play on an older “conservative principle” that argues if your air and water are clean now there’s no need to regulate pollution. And of course this line of thinking’s most recent success is when Roberts gutted the enforcement provision of the VRA.
This just in:
Starbucks ordered to pay $25.6 million to a manager who says she was fired for being Whitehttps://www.cnn.com/2023/06/14/business/starbucks-manager-racial-discrimination/index.html
From the article:
The jury awarded $ 600k in compensatory damages, and $ 25 Million in punitives. The jury must have been very angry to do that.
Can we please not capitalize “white.” I find it offensive, therefore it’s verboten.
Or they can just adjust their models, which they probably already do.
You and David just love this lie!
Then you go on to list the federally-mandated reporting categories, which the Common Application also uses in order to facilitate said federally-mandated reporting. The Harvard and UNC cases aren’t about reporting… even if they lose hard, they’re still going to have to ask those questions on the application and report those categories to the feds.
The categories Harvard and UNC use within the application process for diversity purposes are thoroughly rich and nuanced compared to “Asian” and “Hispanic.”
Mathematically everyone is in a minority and you know what the rarest minority is, The person who on the major determinants is in the majority in every case.
So, next time you hear someone say "Ketanji is Black" and "Clarence Thomas is a Conservative" you've got your data
Yes, Sen. Warren was an 'Indian' if you take the fool's approach and dig until you hit a human differenetiator that you can exploit.
Look the reason we see trans Hispanic gay handicapped Bahais is because now it's how many categories can you cough up to trump someone with only a few minority classifications.
Fact is, mathematically, with only about 4 or 5 categories everyone is a minority. FInally you get the person who is in none of the burgeoning minorities and that is so rare that -- WHAM !! that makes him a minority
as categories increase of minority or discriminated status then normal asymptotically approaches abnormal .