The Volokh Conspiracy
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Court Strikes Down Tennessee Ban on Pornographic Performances by "Male or Female Impersonators" Where Minors Can See Them
Properly crafted restrictions on displays of pornographic material where minors can see it are constitutional; but the court rules, among other things, that this restriction (1) discriminatorily targets drag shows, (2) lacks an exemption for minors escorted by parents, (3) applies even to venues that try to card attendees but are duped by a fake ID.
[1.] A Tennessee statute, enacted last year, provided:
… "Adult cabaret entertainment" … [m]eans adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors, as that term is defined in § 39-17-901, and that feature topless dancers, go-go dancers, exotic dancers, strippers, male or female impersonators, or similar entertainers; …
"Entertainer" means a person who provides: (A) Entertainment within an adult-oriented establishment, … or (B) A performance of actual or simulated specified sexual activities, including removal of articles of clothing or appearing unclothed, [both] regardless of whether a fee is charged or accepted for the performance …;
It is an offense for a person to perform adult cabaret entertainment:
(A) On public property; or
(B) In a location where the adult cabaret entertainment could be viewed by a person who is not an adult ….
To understand this, one has to read § 39-17-901, which provides:
"Harmful to minors" means that quality of any description or representation, in whatever form, of nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse when the matter or performance:
- Would be found by the average person applying contemporary community standards to appeal predominantly to the prurient, shameful or morbid interests of minors;
- Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable for minors; and
- Taken as whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific values for minors ….
"Prurient interest" means a shameful or morbid interest in sex;
And it's also important to know that the Supreme Court has held that, even as to "harmful to minors" material (also known as "obscene as to minors"), "to be obscene 'such expression must be, in some significant way, erotic.'"
This therefore means that the bill doesn't ban drag shows generally, or even drag shows that can be seen by minors. Rather, it just bans drag shows that could be viewed by minors (or are on public property) that depict "nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse" that are "in some significant way, erotic," appeal to minors' interest in sex, and otherwise satisfy the three-prong.
Bans on distributing "harmful to minors" material to minors have been upheld (see Ginsberg v. N.Y. (1968), which used the then-existing definition, but which has been understood to justify the more modern definition used by the Tennessee statute). Likewise, courts have generally upheld restrictions on displaying such materials where minors would be allowed to see them.
A properly crafted law may thus cover pornographic drag shows, but precisely because it narrowly focuses on essentially pornographic material (in the sense of requiring depiction of nudity or sex in an erotic way that appeals to minors' interest in sex). Drag shows that lack such material remain protected by the First Amendment, and aren't covered by the law (though of course there might be worry that some prosecutors will overfocus on the "male or female impersonator" portion of the law and won't pay enough attention to the other requirements).
[2.] Nonetheless, this law, Judge Thomas Parker (W.D. Tenn.) held yesterday in Friends of Georges, Inc. v. Mulroy, violates the First Amendment. The opinion is 70 pages long, so let me just summarize the key points (with some inevitable oversimplification):
[A.] R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992) holds that, even within an unprotected category of speech, content-based and especially viewpoint-based restrictions are presumptively impermissible. Thus, for instance, a law may ban all "fighting words" (face-to-face personal insults that have the tendency to cause fights), because there's a First Amendment exception for such fighting words; but it may not specifically focus on, say, racist fighting words (the issue in R.A.V. itself). Likewise, the court held, this law unconstitutionally targets male and female impersonation; even if limited to constitutionally unprotected displays of obscene-as-to-minors material to minors, that's an impermissible content classification.
The court also notes that the law treats such impersonation differently than, say, display of porn to minors generally, since it specially targets performers, while Tennessee's general ban on displaying sexually themed material target just business owners.
[B.] The law lacks an exemption for minors who are brought to the event by their parents. Ginsberg, the 1968 case upholding the ban on sale of "obscene-as-to-minors" material to minors expressly noted that "the prohibition against sales to minors does not bar parents who so desire from purchasing the magazines for their children." More broadly, the justification for upholding the general sale ban rested in considerable measure on parental discretion:
[C]onstitutional interpretation has consistently recognized that the parents' claim to authority in their own household to direct the rearing of their children is basic in the structure of our society. "It is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder." The legislature could properly conclude that parents and others, teachers for example, who have this primary responsibility for children's well-being are entitled to the support of laws designed to aid discharge of that responsibility.
Likewise, Davis-Kidd Booksellers, Inc. v. McWherter (Tenn. 1993), which upheld the Tennessee ban on display of material in places where minors were allowed, also involved a law that protected parental discretion. That law provided that "It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the minor to whom the material or show was made available or exhibited was, at the time, accompanied by his parent or legal guardian, or by an adult with the written permission of the parent or legal guardian."
[C.] The law also applies to any place where the material "could be viewed by a person who is not an adult." This, the court notes, provides no exception for places that check id's but face the risk of being duped by a fake id:
Plaintiff could build a card-checking fortress around its theatre and a child could still be present.
This sort of strict liability regime, the court concluded, is unconstitutional when it comes to expression that is generally constitutionally protected for adults.
[D.] The law is also unconstitutionally vague, because it doesn't make clear the age of the "minors" as to which "morbid interests of minors," "suitable for minors," and "value[] for minors" are to be determined. If the material is viewed by a jury as unsuitable and valueless for 5-year-olds but suitable and valuable for 17-year-olds, would it be prohibited? (If the response is that suitability turns on the age of the minors in the audience, one might ask whether it turns on the age of the youngest minor, the oldest minor, most of the minors, or something else.) The court concludes that this isn't made sufficiently clear.
Now the Tennessee Supreme Court in Davis-Kidd interpreted a similar statute that banned the "display for sale or rental a visual depiction" that contained obscene-as-to-minors material as covering "only … those materials which lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for a reasonable 17-year-old minor." But the court declined to apply this limiting construction to this statute.
[3.] I'm inclined to think that the court's analysis is correct as to R.A.V., parental rights, and strict liability, though I'm skeptical as to the court's vagueness analysis. (As to vagueness, I think the court ought to have concluded that the Tennessee Supreme Court's interpretation of a similar provision, coupled with the interpretive canon that ambiguous statutes should generally be interpreted to avoid constitutional problems.) For my earlier thoughts on the statute, see this post.
Congratulations to Brice M. Timmons and Melissa J. Stewart (Donati Law, PLLC), who represent plaintiff.
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[Shakes head]
Outrageous how the Deep State prevents honest Conservatives from protecting poor Tennessee children from obvious perversions! Will the Libs ever not side with the perverts?
What I don't understand is why the state (any state) doesn't have the state police power to regulate public property.
They actually do -- they can say no *alcoholic* beverages while permitting other beverages, they can ban dogs while permitting seeing eye dogs, etc -- it's public property and the state (or a subdivision of it) OWNs it and they have the rights associated with that.
As to the larger issue, I believe it is Clairborne Hardware v. NAACP and while I think that decision was wrongly decided, there is nothing to prevent the "Nights of Virtue" from standing outside these events and both identifying and doxing everyone associated with them. And if third parties resort to violence, as happened in Clairborne then the US Supreme Court, in it's infinite wisdom, says it's not the problem of those organizing the boycott.
And boycotting is the solution. If Ms. Jones the fifth grade teacher attends, parents should boycott Ms. Jones' class and demand their children be reassigned to another teacher. So too the butcher, baker, & candlestick maker -- the left has been blacklisting for thirty years, it's time for us to start doing likewise.
And it's time for us to start making the lives of the voodoo scientists miserable. It's psychologists who have given us all of this tranny crap -- they just decreed it by a vote amongst themselves, there was not scientific breakthrough like Einstein's E=MC2 or the transistor.
So let's start exercising our free speech rights by calling them the frauds they are. And as to the trannies, let's start exercising our free speech rights by calling them sicko perverts. (Yes, we also suspect potential child molesters, but let's stay with what we can prove.)
Simply stated, let's shame them back into the closet.
Who was it that said the solution to bad speech was more speech???
Those 1930s Berlin comparisons only getting more apt.
Don't forget what led to 1930 Berlin....
Read Mein Kampf -- assuming you know how to read -- and put it into the historical context of what was going on around the little paperhanger....
Would I be surprised to see Friday Night Fag Burnings 20-30 years from now? Sadly, no -- and it's because people have failed to learn from history...
Be afraid -- be very afraid -- because people have forgotten history....
Read Mein Kampf
Now there's a surprise. Ed thinks we should all read Hitler's book, because actually he made some pretty good points...
As I have been trying to impress on young people for over 40 years ALWAYS read the opposition’s literature so that you know what they are thinking….
In this case, I also suggest that you read it in the context of the times so that you can understand how the turmoil of the times CREATED Hitler — in any other time, in any other set of circumstances, he’d have died a nobody.
It’s why I make an issue of the combination of Adderall, Beta Blockers, and Birth Control Pills. Each, independently, is generally safe within reason. Any two combined can put a woman into the hospital, but she’ll likely live.
But mix the three and she’ll die in the arms of a cop, aspirating blood.
Like I said, any two of the three and she’d likely live. Just one less of the circumstances that made Hitler (even Hindenburg living another year or two) and he’d have died a nobody.
And that is why it is worth knowing that B/C pills prevent the woman’s body from eliminating the Beta Blocker, and why it’s worth knowing what happened in the Wiemar Republic.
If you're going to keep writing comments like that, people will definitely think you ought to be on *more* medication, not less.
Which "people"?
The people who read his comments.
It really happened at UMass.
Read the footnotes on the PDR.
And remember that a Beta Blocker does NOT block the Alpha, and the body releases both concurrently.
Concern trolling could have prevented WWII.
Interesting thesis....
You seem convinced of it, anyway.
The Holocaust could have been stopped -- heck Hitler could have been stopped and was terrified he might be.
But I'm talking about the situation that created him.
Oh. World War I.
Oh come on. That's just a lie.
If the suggestion is that we should read Mein Kampf "so that you can understand how the turmoil of the times CREATED Hitler", how else was I supposed to take that?
I suppose next you'll say no one should ever read Das Kapital or study Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin because we already know what it will lead to.
Studying history, and reading original writings should never be verboten.
He’s saying read Hitler because Hitler had insights on a future violent purge of gay people.
Don’t defend that shit.
It is generally believed that the Nazis were gay -- the SA (Brownshirts) definitely were.
It is absolutely not generally believed they were gay. They were seen as ridiculous and camp right until they started beating everybody up and burning down Jewish businesses and murdering anyone they didn't like, including gay people. Y'know, like some people still sees MAGA and Qanon as ridiculous and over the top.
https://daily.jstor.org/ernst-rohm-the-highest-ranking-gay-nazi/
It's suggested that Hitler had gay sex with Rohm, and that was the reason for the night of long knives.
It’s suggested that Hitler had gay sex with Rohm
Passive voice bullshit is still bullshit.
If someone told me to read Trotsky in order to understand why the capitalists in Russia in 1917 deserved what they got, I would raise an eyebrow thank you very much.
Yeah, read Stalin to understand how all those people provoked him into purging them.
More specifically, he's saying "read Hitler to understand what would've upset Hitler so that we can avoid doing it." Do you agree with that?
What upset Hitler: Jewish people.
How to avoid upsetting Hitler: get rid of Jewish people.
You could start with the people whom he dedicated it to, and find out why out why "they are no longer alive." (Yes, he led them into a trap.)
'because people have forgotten history'
You yourself seem to have conveniently forgotten that lgtbq were targest of Nazi opression, for pretexts that overlap with some of the sentiments you and other express here about them. I daresay you're trying to make an argument that of *course* Nazis targeted them, look how they behaved! The lesson being, presumably, that the very open existence of Jews and lgtbq and Romany and the mentally disabled and public intellectuals were to blame for the rise of fascism. I'm sure the Nazis would agree wholeheartedly.
I'm pretty sure they'll get it right on the redo. The Legislature should just focus on language that would outlaw children viewing strip shows, even if the women are wearing pasties.
And no harm done because children shouldn't be allowed to watch those either, and the people who schedule drag shows for kids know it because they never schedule strip shows even though more kids would be interested in those.
A much-overlooked point. One can certainly write a law about things kids aren't allowed to see that makes no distinction between whether the performers are taking off clothes traditionally worn by the performer's gender or traditionally worn by a different gender. Kids can be barred from seeing me take off a suit and tie, or taking off a dress, and for the same reasons. Drag or cross-dressing has nothing to do with it.
That said, I wouldn't be confident that the legislature will get it right in a re-do. If they had enough sense to do that, they would have hasd enough sense to know better the first time.
Well yeah, but outlawing children viewing strip shows was never the point. The point was to drum up mass hysteria about drag shows in order to win elections, and to blame the Democrats/Liberals/East Coast Elites/Deep State/RINOs when the law inevitably got struck down, in order to win elections.
Well then quit putting on inappropriate drag shows for children so they won't have an election issue to run on.
There. Now everyone is happy.
Inappropriate? The right wasn’t into policing this stuff till they saw a wedge and people like you were told to care about other peoples policing choices and school libraries and whatnot.
I’m not one to assume bad faith, but the timeline is pretty incontrovertible that this is just populist bait.
You do know how English works don't you?
"Inappropriate" is a modifier.
"In linguistics a modifier is an optional element in a phrase structure or clause structure which modifies the meaning of another element in the structure."
Not all drag shows are inappropriate, at least legally, and, thus can not be banned, hence the modifier to limit the meaning of the sentence to only inappropriate drag shows. Which this legislation attempted to define as:
"Harmful to minors" means that quality of any description or representation, in whatever form, of nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse when the matter or performance:
Would be found by the average person applying contemporary community standards to appeal predominantly to the prurient, shameful or morbid interests of minors;
Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable for minors; and
Taken as whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific values for minors …."
Drag shows that lack such "inappropriate" elements are not inappropriate, and can't be banned.
I'm curious as to what elements of "nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse" you find appropriate for minors in a performance "Taken as whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific values for minors".
Or is it all appropriate?
I refer you to the above, which is about the motive and actual target of these laws.
Which is why you went running to formalism.
There is no new epidemic of BDSM abuse shows being shown to children. You know this. This is solving a problem that does not exist, or targeting people whose speech should be protected.
Because this is not about protecting children, it’s about targeting an out group.
I didn't go running to formalism. I merely explained what my words meant, not letting you twist what I said out of its plain ordinary english meaning.
On the other hand you think protecting an out group is more important than protecting children. Usually the way such conflicts are handled is you decide what conduct by the out group is legally protected, then you craft the protections to children within the remaining space of unprotected conduct.
I can see how you might think the protections for children might overwhelm the rights of the outgroup, because that's what you want to do with guns.
Have there been any drag shows for children under this definition of inappropriate?
Seems you were so busy making it legal, you forgot to make it relevant.
The same child protections have to apply to every group, in and out, you don't have to craft anything special, it's up to the venues and the organisers to comply with them and to be able to satisfy parents that they are doing so. If the standard child protections aren't sufficent or aren't being monitored, that's a problem with the people responsible for them. Targeting an out group with special rules isn't going to fix that if it's broken, as with, eg, the Florida foster care system.
It's an ongoing epidemic -- Fistgate was 23 years ago.
https://www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/fistgate/index.html
They get outed, parents protest, and then they go do something else. Gay Santa is probably next....
Drag shows that lack such “inappropriate” elements are not inappropriate, and can’t be banned.
Optimist or cynic? Any show, drag or not, that has such inappropriate elements can be banned. They already were banned. A drag-specific law is, at best, a solution in search of a problem. And that is assuming more good faith than one should.
And as for the timeline, opposition to drag shows for kids started about the time drag shows for kids started. I'm a parent, I never remember when my kids were growing up drag queen story hour, and my youngest is just 23, and its not like I lived in a super red state, I lived just 15 miles from downtown Seattle, plus I was involved, however reluctantly, in the Seattle art scene.
You are really claiming men wearing lingerie and reading stories to kids meets the tradition and history test are you?
Any bill that will pass judicial muster will outlaw the exact same conduct whether it involves cross dressing or not. 95% of drag time story hours won't be affected anyway, why defend the 5% that are pretty indefensible?
opposition to drag shows for kids started about the time drag shows for kids started
A quick Google finds Drag story hour was started in 2015. It's also not fucking obscene.
On the other hand, this anti-drag shit started about when DeSantis et all started with the red meat groomer bullshit.
This bill didn't pass legal muster, apparently. Can you make a bill that targets drag performers but is tailored to not run afoul of the First Amendment? Probably. Wouldn't do much, unless badly enforced (what are the odds).
Except it would signal how anti-woke and eager to go after the outgroup you are.
Well you make my point for me, Drag Queen story hour just started 8 years ago, and as it has spread, the public has become concerned and politicians have responded, especially after things like this have occurred:
"In July, DBPR, whose leader is appointed by DeSantis, launched a probe into popular Wynwood restaurant R House after a video circulated online showing one of its drag show performers wearing pasties and a thong while leading a child through the restaurant. The investigation yielded an administrative complaint in which the department is trying to revoke the restaurant's liquor license on the grounds that the business is a public nuisance and violated state lewdness law."
When things get abused, legislators react. The fact they waited to react until after people started crossing lines is to their credit.
You borked the timeline, and I think you know it.
That investigation was throwing the red meat, it wasn’t the public at last becoming aware.
Except those the right told this was the new outrage. Like you. Now doubling down after being shown to not know or care how this started or why.
Or even really what is actually going on versus some hypothetical obscene drag show story hour there is no evidence have happened.
You're conflating drag queen story hour with this other alleged incident, which is exactly how this sort of thing works. This is like being concerned about non-drag queen story hours involving men or women because somewhere out there other men and women are performing strip shows.
I expect none of them want to closely examine, or acknowledge, the overlap between restrictions against drag and various sorts of, shall we say, 'straight?' or 'cis?' or 'hetero?' entertainments to which kids are routinely exposed.
That sentence seems incomplete.
Sure, it's missing "carry on clingers".
Carry on Mr. Bumble. Better?
it's "K-lingers" with a K
"Coach Jerry Sandusky" experienced in serving "Incomplete Sentences"
When will yours be complete, "Coach/Reverend"??
2043??
Frank "My bad, 2042"
Prof. Volokh can't complete a sentence.
You're mumbling about Jerry Sandusky.
The clingers seem rattled today.
“Judge Thomas Parker (W.D. Tenn.)”
Trump judge.
New York City values.
The Margrave of Azilla: Any response to the judge's fairly detailed legal arguments?
Fair enough, he's applying the precedents of the higher courts and can't question those.
Professor Volokh, you ask a fair question, and the answer is that the question is moot. We DON'T care anymore, the judicial fiat has gone so far and so fast that we no longer care what th e judicial fiat is -- it ain't law.
So Trump appointed the judge -- Trump was TERRIBLE with personnel decisions, persons with ADHD usually are.
Had the judge made a distinction between PUBLIC property and private property, then I'd have read it a second time, but if the state has the right to say that I can't have my can of Tranny Bud Lite on land the state owns, then it also has the right to say that a tranny dance can't be held there. What's the difference???
Do you remember the "trail of tears" decision?
Complain about Trump all you want, he was no Andrew Jackson, and I'm starting to think that it is an Andrew Jackson that we need...
I’m starting to think that it is an Andrew Jackson that we need…
So you're up for some genocide? In light of your endorsement of Hitler, above, I guess that isn't really a surprise. Not sure what any of that has to do with free speech law, but I guess it all makes sense in your mind.
"In light of your endorsement of Hitler..."
Is it necessary to mention that Martinned is a liar?
Yes, Martinned is totally being unfair to Dr. Ed. Dr. Ed only endorsed Hitler's arguments, not Hitler.
If you only look at Hitler's arguments you can see why he had no choice but to do the things he did.
Hitler is an example of what Years meant by the middle ceasing to hold.
It was written in 1919. There was a lot gong on, including the flu pandemic.
He wrote it in prison, which was after April 1, 1924.
Now if he'd been required to serve all 5 years, he'd been there until 1929 but they let him out that December.
Yeats was never in prison. The poem was written in 1919. Published 1920. He was a bit of an artistocratic snob who disliked democracy, too, but we love him anyway.
Did you mix up WB Yeats and OSCAR WILDE? Because I can’t think of any other Irish poet/playwright who famously went to prison, albeit in 1895.
(And for being gay, no less.)
Dr. Ed is a bad writer, but he obviously meant that Hitler was in prison, not that Yates was.
He also has never read Yates, which is why he continually misquotes one of the most famous lines of poetry.
That's bad, but better than confusing Yeats with Wilde.
Professor: Many of us would like to know how you feel now that you've allowed bigots to hijack your blog. Feel free to respond anytime now.
I guess next thing you'll write your governor asking why he allows bigots to inhabit his state.
We all got to live together, might as well listen to whatever everyone is saying.
But a better question might be why are you inhabiting a blog inhabited by bigots? I mean if it's bothering you there's an easy solution.
An odd observation at a blog that engages in viewpoint-driven censorship (of liberals and libertarians, to flatter conservatives, of course). You can use all the vile racial slurs you like at the Volokh Conspiracy, but don't dare use certain words to criticize or poke fun at conservatives.
Carry on, clingers.
Fuck, in 1973 I'd have to rummage through my Dad's B4 bag ( All of you faggot Non Military Kids or Non/Veterans don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, Google that Shit!) when he got back from bombing the Zipperheads into the Stone Age (HT C. Lemay) for a Penthouse/Playboy, then I'd have to put it back in the same place (would actually make notes....(left hand upper pocket, between....) so he wouldn't notice (he wouldn't anyway)
I got detention for drawing a "rendering" of one of the teachers huge tits (no Silicone in 1973, they were pure Ethiopian Breast Feeding) Now it'd be a frigging event...
Frank
In all honesty, it's something else of dad's that I'd be worried about right now.
Prof. Volokh censors liberals for using terms such as "sl_ck-j_wed" and "p_ssy" to describe conservatives, but racial slurs and homophobic slurs get the matador treatment, just waved through . . . so how are those "civility standards" you claimed to be enforcing when imposing partisan censorship coming along, professor?
For some strange, Satanic reason, Democrats are hellbent on having ugly homosexuals wearing womanface gyrate and twerk in front of little children.
You don't find that attractive ??
me either, I'm more into the "Plain Jane"
chicks like Margot Robbie (she can "Kling" to me as much as she wants)
Frank
For some strange, Satanic reason, you keep trying to pretend that this is really a thing, while the Catholic Church, assorted pastors, and varieties of Republican operatives and officials all go down for abusing children or possessing child pornography, and the Florida foster care system turns out to be a sex-trafficking venue.
Nige, have you ever considered who is RUNNING the Florida Foster Care System?
Answer that question -- honestly -- and you'll find yourself agreeing with me....
Neither drag queens nor transexuals.
Oh, really.
Can you say "in the closet"?
Do you have one iota of evidence for this theory, or is this indeed Nazi shit only it's gays not Jews?
Potato, Potahto
Is it ok to class BCD as a Nazi now?
Oh no, whatever you do don't call me the dreaded N-word! That's so powerful when you people call others the N-word!
It's right up there with your other shaming Words of Power like "racist" or "bigot" or "homophobe" or "transphobe" or "patriot" or "Christian" or "White" or "Normal"!!!
If the jackboot fits.
If the jackboot fits, you're the first to lick it.
Nobody’s going to lick your jackboot, BCD. Well, maybe Dr Ed.
You don't know much about History do you Nige? The founder and the head of the SA was gay.
From Wikipedia Ernst Rohm:
"In 1930, at Hitler's request, Röhm returned to Germany and was officially appointed chief of staff of the SA in 1931. He reorganised the SA, which numbered over a million members, and continued its campaign of political violence against communists, rival political parties, Jews and other groups deemed hostile to the Nazi agenda. At the same time, opposition to Röhm intensified as his homosexuality gradually became public knowledge. Nevertheless, he retained the trust of Hitler for a time. After Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, Röhm was named a Reichsleiter, the second highest political rank in the Nazi Party..."
And see this paper:
The Enemy Within: Homosexuality in the Third Reich, 1933-1945 The Enemy Within: Homosexuality in the Third Reich, 1933-1945 Abstract Abstract From 1933 to 1945, the Nazi regime in Germany ruthlessly targeted homosexuals, particularly men, as enemies of the state. While Nazi doctrine officially repudiated same-sex romance, actual policy toward homosexuals in the Third Reich was by no means consistent. This paper examines the components of Nazi racial doctrines and the subtle ways in which the hyper-masculine ethos of the regime in fact encouraged male bonding and homosexual behavior. The differing views of prominent Nazi leaders on the issue of homosexuality are also discussed. The paper concludes by comparing the punishment of homosexual behavior among German soldiers in the Schutzstaffel (SS), and homosexuals unaffiliated with the Nazi party.
Sure the Nazis targeted homosexuals, unless you were a homosexual Nazi, and its well documented there were a lot of them, and several that were high up.
Wow, on top of every other evil, they were colossal hypocrites who protected their own from the laws they used to subjugate others? That completely changes my understanding of fascism!
Nige, are you honestly suggesting that the Nazis believed in the concept of "rule of law" or anything along those lines?
There's considerable evidence that Hitler's grandfather was a Jew -- evidence that would have been available at the time -- not that it mattered. Nor that Rohm was gay, nor much of anything else...
Kaz, that doesn’t contradict Nige.
Quit carrying water for that fucking Nazi what the fuck.
You can say lots of things, you can quote Hitler if you like, but it's just you enabling or downplaying the real abuse of children by demonising minorities.
Ron DeSantis?
It's the career civil servants who run it.
Apparently all closeted drag queens(?) and trans both of whom are into molesting kids,
Quit Hitlering.
It’s people who belong in jail who were running it, but you’ve made three comments about them in an effort to imply something without being specific.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2022/11/27/innocence-sold-floridas-foster-system-provides-dangerous-sex-traffickers-with-easy-access-to-vulnerable-children/
'But identifying who is responsible for allowing foster children to fall into trafficking is a challenge, Reid said. That’s because the Florida Legislature in 1998 voted to privatize the foster care system, leaving the care of children in the hands of contractors. In Broward and Palm Beach counties, that contractor is ChildNet Inc.; in Miami-Dade, it’s Citrus Family Care Network; and in Orange County, it’s Embrace Families CBC. They, in turn, hire subcontractors to operate group homes.'
Now I must listen to Blue Öyster Cult's "Career of Evil."
There is videos of this shit all over the internet.
You can't gaslight something that has 100M views, lol.
There's a video of Hilary Clinton spirit cooking and another of her eating the face of a child, there's videos of Trump having prostitutes pee on a bed, so what? The gaslighting is coming from inside the internet.
There's no video of Trump having prostitutes pee the bed, lol, that was made up by the Clinton campaign and the FBI so they could attempt a coup against the US lol
'There’s no video of Trump having prostitutes pee the bed,'
Exactly. There are lots of really fake videos out there waiting for credulous fools.
Except there are countless videos of ugly trannies tweaking in front of little kids and flashing their genitals.
Just as there are countless Trump pee vids.
Well Janet Reno thought the Florida Daycare system was a Satanic sex trafficking venue, so it's not exactly a new idea.
At least no one has taken it this far yet:
"The so-called "Miami Method," developed in the 1980s by the office of Dade County State Attorney Janet Reno, became a national model for vigilantly pursuing day care sexual abuse cases. Reno set up a special children's unit inside the state attorney's office staffed with "child experts" who specialized in cases of child sexual abuse. The "Miami Method" utililized videotaped interviews with children and expert testimony assuring jurors that the children should be believed."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/fuster/etc/miami.html
What the fuck is this deep cut? Are you so contrarian you are using off topic bullshit to try and deflect from Ed’s Day of the Rope but Gays threadshitting?
The modern version of this is the scares about drag performers and trans people, not the actual documented incidents of sex-trafficking children in the foster care system.
Or to Epsteins Island by powerful Democrats and Globalists
Remember when the cozy deal he’d been given by the guy working in the Trump administration was exposed by an MSM outlet? Up until then he was just a pre-#MeToo predator only liberals and feminists complained about.
Why do you think that's an indictment on Trump?
It's patently obvious that the Administrative State is unmoored from the White House.
It's good for the Democrats that those institutions are filled with and run by their political tribe so they often act in concert when a Democrat is in office.
You need to saw a few more edges off that piece to make it fit.
Precedent is cited concerning laws that allowed parents to opt out and let their children see filth. It is not clear from the post that precedent requires laws to allow parents to overrule the government's judgment. Is there a precedential opinion saying so?
I got to see R rated movies as a minor, accompanied by a parent who didn't research the movie ahead of time. In the Internet era it's much easier to find out if a movie pulls your parental trigger.
They were back before my time, but we once had Drive-In Theaters with screens that could be seen from venues beyond the property line. Weren't there some suits in the '70s about either R or X rated movies being a problem because they were visible from adjacent highways, etc?
There indeed were such suits. Erznoznik v. City of Jacksonville, 422 U.S. 205 (1975), invalidated a city ordinance making it a public nuisance and a punishable offense for a drive-in movie theater to exhibit films containing nudity, when the screen is visible from a public street or place. The Court reasoned that an offended viewer could simply avert his eyes. Id., at 210-11.
I'd worry about eyes on the screen and not the road....
But wasn't there an opposite ruling on X rated movies?
One of the southern states banned watching porn in cars because the visible screen risked distracting or corrupting nearby drivers.
I think it's Louisiana, but all the hits I got in 30 seconds of searching were about the new law that requires a driver's license to watch porn online. Maybe a non-driving state ID will do. I didn't check past the summary.
if a movie pulls your parental trigger
There's a nice euphemism for porn...
Some people think kids shouldn't see literal guns. Others think kids shouldn't see figurative guns.
If Dolly Parton can wear it and wiggle in it and dance in it and not be considered pornographic, then a female impersonator is no different. What makes it "filth" seems to not be the clothing or the amount of skin it shows but the presumed gender, sexual orientation, and message of the performer.
Well I will say one thing about protecting children from graphic sexual displays: it's a very recent phenomenon, and an artifact of our ostentatious standards of living.
Think back 200 years ago when 95% families shared a single bed and 10 kids were fairly common if most of them lived, their parents didn't send them out for a movie when it was sex night. And if someone got embarrassed and walked out of the cottage they'd be just as likely to see a couple of goats, dogs, or pigs copulating.
But we are a product of our culture and our imitation of upper class victorian sexual mores, so there's no going back now.
I guess this depends on whether what you described appeals to the prurient interest.
A ham sandwich could easily see that this law violated the first amendment; thanks to EV and Judge Parker for laying out the reasons in detail.
Eugene, I am disappointed that you continue to defend this law. You know as well as I do that it was always intended to be enforced against non-“pornographic” performers and performances. You know as well as I do that the intent here was always to force performers and venues to either self-censor or take the risk of litigating their defense - the expense of which is the whole point of these laws (as well as other laws targeting “CRT” and “DEI” in education, abortion rights, and gender-affirming care).
It is fortunate that the law over-reaches in other ways that make it possible to pursue preemptive and broad relief. But a First Amendment “scholar” who generally believes in broad free speech rights should not be so willfully blind to what these laws are intended to do. A version of this law more carefully tailored to avoid the problems cited by the judge here is no less of a threat to drag queens, bars, and Pride parades in Tennessee. It just shifts the burden to as-applied challenges after permits have been denied, licenses revoked, people arrested. And you’re cheering on that silencing of speech.
Is that in the other post EV made on this decision?
Your tiresome pedantry is noted, and dismissed.
Uh huh. I'll take that as an admission you were talking out of your ass.
I’ll take that as an admission that you’ll infer whatever you like from what I say, even if unmerited.
What’s going on here is rhetorically more complicated than can be explained briefly. I am not going to go through the effort of spelling out what Eugene is doing, why I am correct in calling it out, and why you are being a tiresome pedant despite your having the intelligence to follow what’s being said, and meant, in the OP and my response to it.
Interesting that parents who have no rights to pull their kids from grooming in elementary school do have the right to take them to sex shows as long as the 'performers' are cross-dressing.
Just wondering, if a case about buying a book to take home for little Johnny is a precedent for going to live performances, does it also apply to drinking in a bar?
The latter isn't as clear as you might think -- a lot of states have both a religions exception and a general "in presence of parent" exception and while the latter usually includes "in private", it's not always clear what "private" means because bars *are* "private."
This came up in Northampton, MA when Hillary Clinton took then-teenaged Chelsea to visit Smith and ordered two glasses of wine, one for Chelsea. And it really wasn't clear that was illegal -- I'm no fan of Shillary but I don't think it was.