The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Exactly Is a "Default"?
The term gets thrown around loosely to refer to different concepts, but with very different implications.
Negotiations over the debt limit are still ongoing, and we are starting to hear a lot about the imminent prospect of a "default." The term gets thrown around a lot in the press, usually attached to words like "unprecedented" and "catastrophic." But the term creates confusion wherever it lands. Some of this reflects garden-variety misunderstanding. But I worry that some of it reflects a kind of intentional slipperiness by motivated actors who want to frame debt-limit issues a certain way.
There are at least two senses in which the term "default" gets used. The first, and probably the more intuitive usage, refers to a failure to make payments on the public debt securities of the United States, like bonds and Treasury bills. On this point I am not Pollyanna: If that kind of default happens it is likely to be a really bad thing. But as I'll explain more below, I don't think that outcome is particularly likely. (Though it's not impossible.)
The second sense in which the word "default" gets used is something like: "Any failure by the United States to make any payment in full and on time." I confess I find this usage of the term spectacularly unintuitive. But, putting intuitions aside for the moment, this second usage also covers a huge potential breadth of potential outcomes. What payments, exactly? And for how long? There is a big difference between a subset of federal salaries getting paid a day late (perhaps against the backdrop of a deal that has been struck but is still grinding its way through bicameralism and presentment), and large swathes of the federal budget going unfunded for many weeks as Congress and the President continue to flounder.
These distinctions are important. But the difference between usage one and usage two—and the important differences of degree within usage two—are sometimes obscured. Consider how Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen discussed the concept of default a couple of weeks ago: "Whether it's defaulting on interest payments that are due on the debt or payments due for Social Security recipients or to Medicare providers, we would simply not have enough cash to meet all of our obligations." Yellen is generally referring to the broader and less intuitive concept of "default" as any delayed payment—but also hinting that hey, maybe we'll default on securities in that more technical sense too. I find this conflation exasperating.
A "default" in the first and more intuitive sense of the term is terrible because the market for Treasuries is such an important part of the global financial system—and its reliability (including its reliability as a short-term investment) is one of the reasons the U.S. government can borrow relatively cheaply. But I think Treasury securities are still reliable even as X Date approaches. First, there's the possible constitutional backstop of the 14th Amendment: Even if you are skeptical (as I am) that the Public Debt Clause gives clear instructions, a failure to service the national debt when it was possible to do otherwise would at a minimum raise a profound and avoidable constitutional question. (Although, for reasons I've offered earlier and elsewhere, I don't think 14th Amendment provides a basis for ignoring the debt limit.) Second, as Kristin Shapiro and I argued in the Journal, Treasury can roll over the principal on the debt—as securities mature and create headroom, new ones can be auctioned. If Treasury plans ahead—and if you buy the 14th Amendment argument it has a constitutional obligation to plan ahead—it can ensure it has enough tax revenue to pay for interest. (In 2020, for instance, the government's net interest outlays were $345 billion, and it received about $3.4 trillion in tax revenue.) For a default on Treasury securities to take place, then, something unforeseen would have to take place—like Treasury auctions failing or tax revenue collapsing.
I don't know the odds of those disasters happening. I don't think anyone does. (Unlikely in the short run, unknown in the long run?) But I suspect those outcomes—especially auction outcomes—are partly a function of what the Administration says about its intentions. It strikes me that the obvious way to both honor the Public Debt Clause and reassure markets would be to say that Treasury has every intention of honoring the securities that compose the "public debt" (as that term appears in both the 14th Amendment at the debt limit statute, 31 U.S.C. § 3101), and that Treasury believes it's possible to do so. But there may be some unfortunate tradeoff between playing hardball in political negotiations and providing maximum reassurance to the market. Again, exasperating.
What about "default" in the second sense of the term—that is, any delay in any government payment? That is not good either. Even though I wish the government spent less at the margin, I don't like the standard debt-limit practice of Congress appearing to make various forms of spending legally obligatory and then providing questionable revenue to achieve those spending goals. Moreover, the potential scale of spending delays in the weeks that come is vast. But it's hardly "unprecedented" for government payments to be delayed—I mean, the whole reason we have a law called the Prompt Payment Act to enforce the government's prompt payment is precisely because government payments aren't always prompt! I certainly thought the government owed me a salary for working during the 35-day shutdown during the Trump Administration (this was before the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act became law)—but got paid only after a delay.
More generally, the degree to which spending delays will be damaging will depend on how far past X Date we go. "X Date" refers technically to the first day on which the federal government can't make a payment, and Treasury makes many thousands of payments every day. The mismatch between Treasury's available incoming cash and each day's thousands of required payments will continue to grow each day past X Date that we go. Short delays in payments will eventually become long delays in payments—and the case will look less and less like a short government shutdown and more and more like an unprecedented disaster.
But I worry that it's become too easy to simply hand-wave on the details and treat "X Date" as the bright-line day on which Treasury securities collapse and no longer become the stable investment of decades past. I still don't see a good basis for that line of thinking.
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Let the games begin!
In past debt ceiling negotiations, there was at least some trust that the Sec of the Treasury was telling the truth about X date.
No one believes ("Inflation is transitory") Yellen. Zero credibility. And also, zero transparency about the payment prioritization. Clearly we have enough revenue to pay interest on the public debt and have the capacity to roll over securities.
At that is a problem, because it will encourage Republicans to push the limit. In fact, I expect it - Republicans to push right past whatever Yellen says is X date to prove a) shes wrong; and b) there is no disaster if government spending slows.
>50% chance we are still negotiating late next week and into the following week.
Meanwhile the progs are pushing 14 trillion in reparations. smh. Noooo.
Well, I mean, why SHOULD there be a disaster if government spending slows, when it would only be slowing to rates that, just a few years ago, were still considered unusually high?
I think the disaster Democrats actually fear most is government spending being cut, and the public not finding it awful.
yes, this: "I think the disaster Democrats actually fear most is government spending being cut, and the public not finding it awful."
No one believes (“Inflation is transitory”) Yellen. Zero credibility.
Why? I mean other than you claiming not to believe her I haven't really seen any credible claims that she's fibbing.
And also, zero transparency about the payment prioritization. Clearly we have enough revenue to pay interest on the public debt and have the capacity to roll over securities.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
I think hitting the limit makes things a lot more complicated than folks realize because the prioritization becomes a game of minimizing damage.
You can delay paychecks for a while, but whose paychecks? Civil servants? Military? At a certain point people start quitting, people you need for the government to function, so there's complications here.
What about social security? You can delay those payments, but that could be disastrous for the recipients. Medicare providers? They'd be better positioned to get loans to cover the payments, though they also might end up suing to get the interest on the loans covered.
The best way to minimize damage is to meet as many of these obligations as you can with tax revenue, the problem is that tax revenue is a bit unpredictable, so if it unexpectedly drops for a period you might actually run out of cash to make interest payments on the debt and be in true default.
Meanwhile the progs are pushing 14 trillion in reparations. smh. Noooo.
I'm not sure why you're talking about a bill pushed by a handful of legislators that no one imagines actually becoming law. I actually had to look it up because symbolic bills with no chance of passing don't actually make much news.
"There is a big difference between a subset of federal salaries getting paid a day late . . . ."
It was sometime in the early 90s that military members "lost" a paycheck because DoD had run out of money in September and the new Fiscal Year (FY, starts on 1 Oct each year) had not yet started.
You could choose to be paid the first of the month or semi-monthly (first and 15th). For the semi-monthly folks, DOD simply "moved" the 15th payday into the next FY.
What matters is not legal definitions, or other usages.
What matters is the reaction of the financial markets. For practical purposes whether we "default" or not will be decided there, not in court or Congress.
Meanwhile, the markets are, for now, treating bonds from Microsoft and J&J as safer than Treasuries.
Yellen is (supposed to) have a fiduciary duty to the United States to ensure interest costs are low. Instead, shes a politico and no one believes her. She should be jawboning the markets: WE WILL PAY THE DEBT. The Treasury has plenty of revenue.
Worst Treasury Secretary in my lifetime.
Like I said above, I expect Republicans to test her and prove her wrong. Again. Still.
Not worse than Steven Mnuchin; but dwb68 was apparently born yesterday.
yes, worse than Mnuchin. At least Mnuchin produced some great movies!
Not exactly the job of a Treasury Secretary. And as Treasury Secretary he got in trouble for promoting the LEGO Batman movie, and wrote to the Office of Government Ethics that he should not have made the statement promoting it. Claims that the 2017 tax cut that violated the "Mnuchin Rule" would cause explosive economic growth rather than the huge deficit it produced? Misuse of government aircraft? Feuding with Grata Thunberg and Colin Kaepernick? His comments about the debt ceiling in 2017 were alone significantly worse than anything Yellen has done in the present crisis.
LEGO batman was a great movie.
your opinion is colored by the hypocritical stick up your bottom.
I liked that movie; Mnuchin promoting it was an ethical violation, as he acknowledged. It's clear your opinion is from your partisan opinions. Call me when Yellen is credibly compared to a James Bond villain.
James Bond villain credibility would be a level up for Yellen.
Moar lying to the markets says dwb68.
You don't know how this will turn out.
Of course, if it turns out to be really bad, I presume you'll say it was Dem bad faith and you were actually right.
Sure, if we assume that the Treasury Secretary will allow the US to default on debt obligations rather than prioritize them over other expenditures, and thus increase borrowing costs for the country, in exchange for supposed tactical advantage in a political spat ... then we don't know how this will turn out.
But if we assume the Treasury Secretary does their actual job, we do know how this will turn out.
bingo
What are the other expenditures?
Everyone thought that the fiscal cliff was a disaster. Suddenly it's totally avoidable, just blame the Fed.
Nope. This is nonsense. Magical thinking. Worse, purposefully muddy thinking so you can avoid the blame if shit gets bad.
Yes, it is a sad truth that it is more consequential if some pension fund growth is delayed or some rich people get richer at a slightly slower rate, than if a few thousand government clerks miss their rent or car payments or can't afford groceries for a couple of weeks.
The worlds smallest violins playing for all those "government clerks" living in Montgomery County Maryland where new home prices "start" in the 800,000s
Drive around Prince Georges county, Montgomery County, Howard, County, Fairfax County, and see how all those "government clerks" live. In 700k+ homes driving expensive SUVs.
Going with your insight that perceptions are what matters, doesn't it follow that public officials' first duty in this mess is to refrain from grandstanding, drama-queening, and issuing public ultimatums?
Well, maybe.
If by grandstanding and drama-queening you mean exaggerating the consequences if you don't get your way, then I'd say that's a good idea in general. As for ultimatums, I guess they are OK if you fully intend to stick by them, which they usually don't.
Still, I'm not sure the markets pay all that much attention to politicians' words. They tend to be cold-blooded, and look at actions.
Also a note about the second sense of default: delay in payments.
If the government were a normal medium-large size borrower, they would be subject to a cross default provision (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/crossdefault.asp).
That is a delay or failure to pay some other obligation would trigger a technical default**.
But because the US Treasury is a wholly owned subsidiary of Goldman Sachs, the 1000000 pound gorilla in the financial markets, it can do whatever it wants. No one will care until those interest payments get delayed and FEDWIRE gets gummed up. US Treasury securities are the grease in the financial system (posted as collateral for other contracts). It is hard to overstate what a disaster that would be (Russia, China chuckling in background and encouraging default).
** naturally the scope of contracts included and grace periods would be negotiated.
Rounding the debt up to $33trillion and assuming the US population at 330 million (legal and illegal) equal $100,000 for every man woman and child.
Cut government spending to zero (except defense), i'd be happy to pay my share to payoff the debt in 4-5 years.
Of course I am paying for my whole family, but I'd be fine with that plan.
Cut government spending to zero (except defense), i’d be happy to pay my share to payoff the debt in 4-5 years.
Yeah, you're a moron.
Since that debt disproportionately benefited rich people through tax cuts, dividing it out evenly among every American is profoundly dishonest.
That's a really weird definition of "benefited"; "We didn't force you to overpay as much as we could have!"
The richest billionaires pay much lower rates in taxes than the average taxpayer.
They're still tremendously over-paying in terms of the services they get.
You're assuming taxes ought to default to being proportional to income. The crass bourgeois assumption is that you should pay for what you get, and the rich don't get that much more.
Funny. When I moved to a more expensive house my homeowners' insurance went up.
Got any support for this beyond breathless, feels-right headlines? CBO sez exactly the opposite. Exhibit 10 on page 17 of the PDF shows an average federal tax rate of 30.2% for the top 0.01% and 29.3% for the rest of the top 1%, compared to less than 15% for the middle quintile.
I think the explanation is on page 37. This study attributes all federal taxes to households, not just taxes actually paid by those households out of their own income. Federal payroll, income, and excise taxes paid by corporations are divvied up among the household totals of bond and share holders and employees according to the rules on that page. They don't appear to allocate corporate income in the same way so the effect will be to inflate the numerator but not the denominator in all the tax rate calculations. I don't think they provide enough data to figure out what the uninflated numbers would be.
It looks like they're trying to approximate a portion of corporate taxes as individual consumption taxes, but unless I'm missing something that sort of allocation would tend to move the needle in the wrong direction (disproportionately increasing the effective tax % of lower-income taxpayers).
And in any event, there aren't that many dollars at issue in that allocation. Page 37 says only 25% of corporate income taxes are attributed to households, and corporate income taxes are barely more than 10% of total tax revenue. So we're talking about a few percentage points of tax revenues, which mathematically shouldn't be able to create that large of a discrepancy in the effective tax rate for high-income individuals.
No, if you read it again the 25% is the fraction allocated to "workers in proportion to their labor income". The other 75% is allocated to "owners of capital in proportion to their income from interest, dividends, rents, and adjusted capital gains". Exhibit 2 on page 7 shows that will disproportionately affect the top 0.1%, and especially the top 0.01% who get close to 70% of their income from capital.
Yeah, said "households" when I should have said (lower-income) workers. But that doesn't change my broader point at all, which is that the number of corporate tax dollars is so small as not to be able to significantly move the needle, much less to the degree needed to support OP's meme. Can you share even some high-level math that shows how it could?
Warren Buffet has reported paying a significantly lower rate than his secretary. Tax rates are regressive at the top.
Ah, that old saw. During that mid-2000s media blitz Buffet said the tax rate of his "secretary" was nearly 36% -- at today's marginal rates that would be a salary well northward of a quarter million dollars. That's not an "average taxpayer" by any stretch.
Back in the real world, median household income these days is just over $70k, which fits comfortably within the... wait for it... 12% bracket. Meanwhile, nearly all of Buffet's long-term capital gains are being taxed at 20%.
As I said at the outset, there are red-meat, class-warfare headlines, and there are actual hard numbers. If you have any of the latter to offer, I'm all ears. But if all you have to support your worldview is 15-year-old misleading soundbites, it might be worth stepping back and thinking about why.
lolwut?
the debt has benefited rich people??? They are the ones paying for it lmao.
"Since that debt disproportionately benefited rich people through tax cuts..."
If government debt is unfairly subsidizing rich people, maybe we should do less of it???
YES, this!
Absolutely! Thank you, dwb68, for endorsing higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans.
there aren’t enough millionaires and billionaires to finance all your plans. What you progs seem to miss, every time, is that the capital is infinitely mobile these days and can park anywhere. People are leaving high tax CA and NY , and can leave the USA just as easily.
Taxes are *voluntary*... when they get too high people change their behavior. raising taxes rarely really raises revenue.
Leaving the USA won't save them from federal tax liability.
Suddenly you like foot voting? Maybe you should read more of Somin's posts instead of skipping straight to commenting on them.
If it were that easy, then they would have already left. Instead they like to pretend their profits accrue in tax havens while continuing to operate and hold wealth in the US.
That’s a ridiculous statement. I can’t even figure out how to interpret it.
The debt benefits the lenders and the people/programs that the cash was spent on. Some of the people were rich and some of them were not rich.
You class warriors gotta spout your dogma even when it creates a non sequitur.
No, he's positing that most of the deficit is due to not taking even more money from the wealthy.
No, they're pointing out the Bush and Trump tax cuts that disproportionately benefited the wealthy were large contributors to the debt.
You might argue that it's fine that the wealthy can pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes. But the fact that the GOP cut revenue without cutting expenditures is obviously a bad idea if you want to balance your books.
Right. The point is that the GOP doesn't actually give a crap about the deficit, as demonstrated by their behavior when in power, rather than their rhetoric.
It is correct to say that Republicans cutting taxes while not cutting expenses is irresponsible.
It is not correct to ignore massive spending increases as also being a source of debt.
Income and outgo both contribute to cashflow balance/imbalance.
Income and outgo both contribute to cashflow balance/imbalance.
Of course.
Income and outgo both contribute to cashflow balance/imbalance.
Agreed.
But given that, if you wish to balance the books, is it not better to do so when you have control of the three branches of government like the GOP did?
The thing that really bothers me is the whole point of Democracy is politicians being held accountable for their actions. But the GOP's debt ceiling strategy is designed to do the opposite. Not only do they try to dodge being held responsible for the spending cuts they force, but won't even take responsibility for the specific cuts.
"Since that debt disproportionately benefited rich people through tax cut" might be one of the most illogical phrases I've ever seen here.
And given some of the other drivel that gets typed here, that's saying a lot. Magister, I don't usually have trouble understanding you. Would you take a crack at rephrasing?
The tax cuts that created most of that debt were primarily for the benefit of rich people.
The last time we were close to an "unprecedented" "default" somebody dug up a precedent from the Carter era. The payment got made not too long after and the markets didn't freak out.
I found the 2011 article, posted it, then it weas deleted not sure why. Google "carter debt default" it comes up. We techjnically defaulted April 1979 ish on ~125 million in payments due to a "word processing glitch"
Which sort of illustrates my point above.
The markets aren't going to freak out over a late payment caused by a word processing glitch, "default" or not.
But if the government just decides not to meet its obligations that's a different story.
We had shutdowns during the Clinton presidency. I don’t remember the short term impacts but intermediate/long term they were barely a blip.
The larger thing here is that once again it demonstrates that our elite leadership can’t handle their (our) business worth a shit. I think the public and the markets have become accustomed to that, though.
In a lot of ways this is a big deal about not that much.
This is not a shutdown.
Shutdown is a failure to pass an appropriation.
This is a failure to obligate what was promised in the latest appropriation.
It’ll be the same impact. Debt gets serviced and rolled over. Spending gets prioritized temporarily until they get it worked out.
You’re too hung up on appropriation. You seem to think that appropriations can’t be changed at the will of congress, which isn’t true. The way you’re looking at it is that, effectively, every previously approved appropriation is now an untouchable entitlement. That’s just not the case.
Bevis,
Every approved appropriation is now required spending unless Congress changes it. Not,"unless the Freedom Caucus objects."
The House of Representatives did change it. You know - the place where spending bills are supposed to originate. Those guys.
The Democrats have basically proposed nothing. Gimme, gimme, gimme.
And the debt ceiling is a legally required limit. Every bit as valid in the law as the spending authorizations.
You can’t spend the money if you don’t have it. The laws conflict and the parties involved need to negotiate a solution. Which they’ll do once we get through this posture and blame the other side phase. Whether the do so in May 30th or June 5th ultimately doesn’t matter.
Congress could operate that way if it chose to, it has authority over incurring expenses due the Antdeficiency Act and over appropriations due the Constitution, but it often chooses not to. Instead it authorizes expenditures first which allows the government to obligate funds even though it doesn't have them yet, and only later appropriates money to pay the bills.
Or, as we are seeing now, it maybe threatens to not do the second part.
The House of Representatives did change it.
Except they can't do that unilaterally. And again, you ignore Biden's budget proposal.
Like it or not, you can't say he hasn't proposed anything.
Same with the other side. Eventually they’ll work something out.
"Default" is a financial term of art that refers specifically to failure to make principal or interest payments on a loan, so I would agree that Clarke's first definition is more conventional, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as more intuitive.
No. Its a legal term of art that sometimes also applies to financial contracts.
Yup. WRT bonds, an event of default is failure to abide by the terms of issuance, of which failure to pay coupon or principal are the two most obvious. But if, for example, an issuer of a collateralised security fails to provide enough collateral per the bond prospectus, even though they may be continuing to pay interest, that too is a default.
Yes, default also has a legal meaning that is broader including all kinds of nonperformance of an obligation. Even failure to make a court appearance is a default. Maybe some of it has bled over into the financial world, but if so it is rare. Writings I've seen that mention default in the context of secured bonds invariably mean default of payment, not insufficient collateral.
This won’t be a default. The government easily have the ability to service its debt, and as debt matures it can be rolled over.
The issue is going to be which programs and operations get cut back until they work out a deal. Presumably that will be at the discretion of the executive branch.
Any financial market impact will be transitory. Remember, we went through shutdowns back in the Clinton years and they were barely a blip in the overall scheme of things.
During one of them a famous American romance blossomed and arguably that romance had more effect on the future than the shutdowns did.
Any financial market impact will be transitory.
Then grab some Treasuries now, Bevis. You'll make a killing.
The fact is we don't know what the impact will be, and can't even make an educated guess until we see where all this lands.
My opinion, which I've stated before, is that the prioritization business wouldn't help much, even if it were possible. What we should be worried about is financial market reactions, and the markets are not going to close their eyes to failure to meet non-debt obligations.
Among other things, they might think if the government can skip Social Security payments because Congress is dysfunctional, then maybe next time it will skip interest payments. Who knows?
The government has been reduced to only necessary expenditures before with zero impact. This will be no different, if it even gets to that stage.
That's an extremely load bearing 'necessary.'
As I said, load up on Treasuries.
They aren't that good of an investment even if you don't expect something bad to happen...
Sarcastro - no, it isn’t. You think all spending is sacrosanct.
In an emergency they’ll have to make choices. Temporary choices. The country has survived this before. It will again. Quit trying to create a catastrophe that doesn’t exist.
Bernard - Have you looked at the yield curve lately. It’s all screwed up by the fed and economic expectations. Anything beyond a year is overpriced. IMO.
You didn't define necessary. That's not doing the work.
The country has survived this before. Not this, no. You may be thinking of a shutdown. This is not that.
It can be the equivalent of that so long as Yellen and Biden don't yolo
It’s not my job to do the work.
You keep saying that it’s not the same but the impact is the same. Debt will be serviced and rolled over.
Budgeted revenue for fiscal 2023 is just over $400B per month. Projected interest is around $53B per month. That leaves nearly $350B to spend. Projected spending is around $460B per month.
So they’ll have to cut/defer around 25% if non-interest spending for a couple of weeks. Is that ideal? Nope. Can it be done? Sure. All this default talk is more overwrought political scaremongering, and nobody beyond Washington and the media is too worked up about it because it’s become like the boy that cried wolf.
If you want to avoid that then the sides need to cut a deal.
I get the... 'the Administration should have been selectively ignoring some laws for a while now so that it had a large enough cash stash that, if push came to shove and the brinksmanship didn't end in time, it wouldn't have to choose between ignoring this one (debt limit) law or ignoring those other laws and/or defaulting on some public debt' argument. But I don't find it particularly persuasive.
For one thing, we're okay with the administration deciding who and what to cut off? It just gets to decide what it cares about and what it doesn't, without regard to what Congress has chosen to spend money on and commit to? For another, if it's okay for the Administration to just decide not to spend the money Congress said to spend and honor the obligations Congress decided to make, then why isn't it okay for it to just, you know, ignore the debt limit?
More pragmatically though, even if we accept this argument in theory, is it too late to implement that strategy? Last I checked we had less than $80 billion cash on hand, so to speak. And by my calculations we have $88 billion in Treasuries coming due on 5/30, then another $149 billion on 5/31, and then another $117 billion on 6/1.
Even without ongoing net payments (i.e. needing to pay more in the coming weeks than we'll take in, for interest and all the other things the government is supposed to be paying for) how do we effectively roll over that principal?
I'm pretty sure we can't just say - hey, hang on to those Treasuries for a while longer and we'll redeem them when we have enough cash to do so. That would be default. So we'd need headroom to redeem those securities. Do we just, on a given day, redeem some of them to create headroom to issue more Treasuries and then use that money to redeem some more and so on? Is that at all practical?
I can accept a legal argument debt obligations have priority over other obligations. But why should the public accept at face value Professor Claire’s policy argument that preventing even a minor temporary disruption to the interest and profits of rich rentiers is somehow more important to the overall well-being of society than whether poor people’s children eat?
It’s a let-them-eat-cake sort of policy argument that’s practically asking for a popular backlash against the elite in a world where many people have no bread.
why should the public accept at face value Professor Claire’s policy argument that preventing even a minor temporary disruption to the interest and profits of rich rentiers is somehow more important to the overall well-being of society than whether poor people’s children eat?
And there is a second layer to this. Maybe the public buys it this time, but not next time. And even if we make the interest payments the markets may still be looking over their shoulder.
Indeed, I suspect that however the fight ends we have already damaged our credit standing. That's actually a good reason to abolish the debt ceiling. Having the faith and credit of the country be a political football is idiotically risky.
The obfuscation you are discussing between the different topics seems to be purposeful and intentional. They are trying to claim the harms that a default on debt will cause to the non-debt obligations that they would really like to protect, but that wouldn't cause such harms. So they mix the two and try to justify one with the other, which is just lying.
For the, "debt ceiling must be raised" crowd:
What if it is and no one buys the new bonds. You have your demand, but you still cant spend as much as you want. So what then?
That's a really really good point.
Not quite, but kinda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism