The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Gorsuch on COVID-19 and Emergency Government
Arizona v. Mayorkas is one of the cases dealing with "Title 42 orders" that "severely restricted immigration to this country for the ostensible purpose of preventing the spread of COVID–19"; today, the court issued a procedural order in the case, and Justice Gorsuch wrote a statement regarding that decision. It began with laying out the "tortured procedural history," and noting the problems posed by nationwide injunctions; but it then added:
Since March 2020, we may have experienced the greatest intrusions on civil liberties in the peacetime history of this country. Executive officials across the country issued emergency decrees on a breathtaking scale. Governors and local leaders imposed lockdown orders forcing people to remain in their homes. They shuttered businesses and schools, public and private. They closed churches even as they allowed casinos and other favored businesses to carry on. They threatened violators not just with civil penalties but with criminal sanctions too.
They surveilled church parking lots, recorded license plates, and issued notices warning that attendance at even outdoor services satisfying all state social-distancing and hygiene requirements could amount to criminal conduct. They divided cities and neighborhoods into color-coded zones, forced individuals to fight for their freedoms in court on emergency timetables, and then changed their color-coded schemes when defeat in court seemed imminent.
Federal executive officials entered the act too. Not just with emergency immigration decrees. They deployed a public-health agency to regulate landlord-tenant relations nationwide. They used a workplace-safety agency to issue a vaccination mandate for most working Americans. They threatened to fire noncompliant employees, and warned that service members who refused to vaccinate might face dishonorable discharge and confinement. Along the way, it seems federal officials may have pressured social-media companies to suppress information about pandemic policies with which they disagreed.
While executive officials issued new emergency decrees at a furious pace, state legislatures and Congress—the bodies normally responsible for adopting our laws—too often fell silent. Courts bound to protect our liberties addressed a few—but hardly all—of the intrusions upon them. In some cases, like this one, courts even allowed themselves to be used to perpetuate emergency public-health decrees for collateral purposes, itself a form of emergency-lawmaking-by-litigation.
Doubtless, many lessons can be learned from this chapter in our history, and hopefully serious efforts will be made to study it. One lesson might be this: Fear and the desire for safety are powerful forces. They can lead to a clamor for action—almost any action—as long as someone does something to address a perceived threat. A leader or an expert who claims he can fix everything, if only we do exactly as he says, can prove an irresistible force.
We do not need to confront a bayonet, we need only a nudge, before we willingly abandon the nicety of requiring laws to be adopted by our legislative representatives and accept rule by decree. Along the way, we will accede to the loss of many cherished civil liberties—the right to worship freely, to debate public policy without censorship, to gather with friends and family, or simply to leave our homes. We may even cheer on those who ask us to disregard our normal lawmaking processes and forfeit our personal freedoms. Of course, this is no new story. Even the ancients warned that democracies can degenerate toward autocracy in the face of fear [citing Aristotle's Politics].
But maybe we have learned another lesson too. The concentration of power in the hands of so few may be efficient and sometimes popular. But it does not tend toward sound government. However wise one person or his advisors may be, that is no substitute for the wisdom of the whole of the American people that can be tapped in the legislative process.
Decisions produced by those who indulge no criticism are rarely as good as those produced after robust and uncensored debate. Decisions announced on the fly are rarely as wise as those that come after careful deliberation. Decisions made by a few often yield unintended consequences that may be avoided when more are consulted. Autocracies have always suffered these defects. Maybe, hopefully, we have relearned these lessons too.
In the 1970s, Congress studied the use of emergency decrees. It observed that they can allow executive authorities to tap into extraordinary powers. Congress also observed that emergency decrees have a habit of long outliving the crises that generate them; some federal emergency proclamations, Congress noted, had remained in effect for years or decades after the emergency in question had passed.
At the same time, Congress recognized that quick unilateral executive action is sometimes necessary and permitted in our constitutional order. In an effort to balance these considerations and ensure a more normal operation of our laws and a firmer protection of our liberties, Congress adopted a number of new guardrails in the National Emergencies Act.
Despite that law, the number of declared emergencies has only grown in the ensuing years. And it is hard not to wonder whether, after nearly a half century and in light of our Nation's recent experience, another look is warranted. It is hard not to wonder, too, whether state legislatures might profitably reexamine the proper scope of emergency executive powers at the state level.
At the very least, one can hope that the Judiciary will not soon again allow itself to be part of the problem by permitting litigants to manipulate our docket to perpetuate a decree designed for one emergency to address another. Make no mistake—decisive executive action is sometimes necessary and appropriate. But if emergency decrees promise to solve some problems, they threaten to generate others. And rule by indefinite emergency edict risks leaving all of us with a shell of a democracy and civil liberties just as hollow.
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Wow...Justice Alito just told it like it was. He is sounding the warning.
Alito?
He didn't write on this decision.
Alito???
The quote in the article is from Gorsuch not Alito.
This very much sounds like Justice Gorsuch’s mother, Anne, speaking. At one point, she was the head of the EPA, but before that, she was a leader of the House Crazies in the CO Legislature, where my mother was active lobbying for the League of Women Voters.
Anyone who lived through 9/11 and Texas during Hurricane Rita already knows all of this. Gorsuck is an imbecile because Covid was actually serious and the federal response was unfortunately a little late and then Republican governors made it all worth while by helping to kill 500,000 white trash Americans.
Way to look at the sunnyside. I was just imagining that we were back in the time of the black death in the middle ages. Communities are sealed off so that people don't get infected. And a libertarian walks right up to the wall and the drawbridge and says "Forsooth, I demand the right to infect anybody I want to. How dare you impinge on my civil liberties."
Covid is a respiratory virus. Nothing that you or Sam Bank-f suggest would have any positive effect on slowing the case rate, fatality rate or hospitalization rates.
Where did I suggest anything? But your point is utter hogwash. Covid mortality rates were much higher in red states. I don't know for sure but think we can draw a causal relationship between all those freedom lovers with covid congregating in churches during the pandemic and high death rates.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
I've already been over this in previous threads. Once you control for age, weight, and morbidity, and vaccination rates above age 65, all correlation between lockdowns and mortality rates goes away. It's a spurious correlation based on some states that had ideal demographics going whole hog on lockdowns, and that's all.
Encouraging vaccination among particularly vulnerable populations, and ONLY the particularly vulnerable populations, was worthwhile. Closing schools, shuttering restaurants, limiting how many people could stay in the same room, forcing people to mask up in public? None of that looks like it did a bit of good once you control for confounding variables.
All those things WERE strongly correlated with your local economy tanking, though:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9426308/
The best response would have been encouraging people to get out and get some exercise and take some pounds off, helping the old and sick get vaccinated, and otherwise do no harm.
If you do this thing that apparently hasn't actually been done.
Does it control for all the service workers that died?
Nige 1 hour ago
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If you do this thing that apparently hasn’t actually been done.
"Does it control for all the service workers that died?"
Nige - You do realize that occupation is a very minor factor with covid case rates, covid death rates - curious why you would raise the question - unless your understanding of the health / covid risk factors are poorly developed.
What, not even healtcare workers?
Nige 2 hours ago
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"What, not even healtcare workers?"
Nige - you keep changing the question after it has been repeatedly explained to you - almost as if you are incapable of understanding the basic explanation.
So you're telling me that frontline staff in hospitals and people who worked in stores serving customers were not more at risk of catching covid than people who didn't?
Nige 26 mins ago
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"So you’re telling me that frontline staff in hospitals and people who worked in stores serving customers were not more at risk of catching covid than people who didn’t?"
Nige - that is the 4th time you changed the question - Obvious that you dont understand the topic. The answer has been explained to you multiple times on this thread and prior threads. This is not that difficult to understand -
Seriously, you actually think that nobody took the time to do an analysis controlling for obvious confounding variables?
I actually provided a link to an example of such a study, and you've got the gall to write that?
I don't believe you're actually that stupid, it's some kind of spinal reflex in action.
First, your study is from 2022. Hindsight is fun and all, but not really a fair put.
Second, we didn't close restaurants. We chose to close schools instead. I think an awful idea, and I said so at the time.
But what it does not prove is that US leaders should have done nothing outside of elderly targeted stuff. You're miles away from establishing that, even with your overdetermined hindsight.
That wasn't a link to that sort of study. The US response was a mess. Haphazard, highly variable, politically opposed by one faction based on paranoia and conspiracy theories, and generally half-arsed. The US response is a study in dysfunction. You have to control for THAT.
I don't know where you get your figures but cumulative death rates were 38% higher in red states. Lockdowns, masking and vaccination all made sense.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/red-blue-america-glaring-divide-covid-19-death/story?id=83649085
Close to 7 million people died from this disease around the world, a little worse than a bad flu I would say. And the idea that people died with covid but not from covid is ridiculous. Covid made people with health problems die. I am not going to blame them.
Blue - you are again citing discredited and intentionally misleading data. As Brett and other correctly note, Advanced age is the primary factor along with other health issues. death rates across states is nearly identical based on age groups.
Show me one instance where a credible authority disproved these studies, not an armchair libertarian "expert" and I might pay attention. You guys are all hot air.
Disproved what studies, precisely? And what do you mean by “disproved”, anyway? A statewide death count can be accurate, but still misrepresent the conclusions if there were other factors involved – such as age.
As for “from vs with”, the CDC’s own death stats show that it is clearly the case. Unless you believe that someone with a ICD cause of death for “gunshot wound, multiple” AND “COVID-19” actually died because of the COVID.
“And the idea that people died with covid but not from covid is ridiculous.”
The CDC says otherwise.
“Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). The number of deaths that mention one or more of the conditions indicated is shown for all deaths involving COVID-19 and by age groups. For over 5% of these deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned on the death certificate. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 4.0 additional conditions or causes per death.”
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities
I personally embalmed a woman who fell and broke her neck. She was tested for Covid postmortem, and was positive. Covid went on the death certificate.
Bill - Sorry for the woman that broke her neck. curious what state you are located. I know of a similar incident
I suffered through stage 4 bladder cancer in the lamina wall, throughout the covid pandemic. Lost what was left of my left kidney. So I am seriously immunocompromised, still undergoing immunotherapy. If covid had hastened my entrance to a departure from this mortal coil, I would not hasten to call myself a covid statistic, as it would be the final coffin nail.
Then why the extreme difference between red and blue? What do you mean "ideal demographics?" Does that mean college educated folks or people that are literate or had a full set of teeth? Are they older in the red states, fatter, more prone to morbidity? You can't throw out vaccination rates, because that is my point. Right wing evangelicals that speak in tongues and like to handle snakes at their revival meetings somehow believed that covid was a big hoax and vaccination the mark of the beast because their orange leader told them they were.
Death rates by age group were remarkably similar across all states regardless of political affiliations/leanings.
the exceptions were VT, NH, ME, HI, on the low side and NY & NJ on the high side.
Florida has around 50% more per capita in the 65+ age group than most every other state, so it was naturally going to have higher death rates.
The top 16 states, age adjusted for covid, were all red. At least according to this study.
https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/
Blue - You can draw a lot of inferences from the data if you dont understand the data. As Brett notes, adjusted for age, obesity and other factors, there is virtually no difference in case rates based on red state vs blue state , or even blue counties vs red counties.
I love when people just link to raw data and claim a conclusion without showing any statistical analysis.
If you code the states by red and blue (I based this on a map on wikipedia), the means aren’t that different, and the standard deviations on the average of each group is much larger than the difference between the means. They’re obviously not statistically different from each other, but I did a t-test anyway. No significant difference (p > .10).
So no, covid mortality rates weren’t higher in red states than blue states based on the data you linked.
And that’s before you try to assess any problems with the data, including the fact that states are not homogenous, and cases were probably centered in bluer parts of states. (It would be far better to do this analysis at a county level). (And also age, etc... but other people have covered this).
Why do you assume that there were more cases in bluer parts of the states? Can you back that up?
Again.
https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/
Call it a hypothesis, based on New York primarily. I don't *know* it's true, because I haven't collected the relevant data and tested it. If I'm wrong, I'm okay with that.
Regardless, it is not the case that there's a significant difference between red and blue states. I can perform the same analysis on the new data you just linked, but I can tell you just by looking at it that the variance within groups is much larger than the mean difference between groups.
Or you could, idk, learn how to do a t-test yourself. And then you could report if a difference is significant, and the relevant p-value, instead of just expecting someone else to do the work for you.
Clearly you got the dregs of your family's gene pool. Covid was never serious - total deaths year over year didn't move at all, and the average age of people who died WITH Covid in every age group was 2 years over the national average (in other words, your chances of dying from Covid was never higher than your overall chance of dying at that age).
There was literally nothing government could have done to reduce the impact of Covid - except to refrain from the things they DID do like telling people "DO NOT TRY IVERMECTIN OR HCQ" (both of which are now proven to reduce the probability of death and severity of symptoms in some percentage of people) and instructing hospitals to put people on ventilators (which killed more people than it helped) and mandating not-vaccines which killed and injured more people than they helped.
In other words - every totalitarian act by government HURT us. Which, given that in 5,000 years of recorded human history there are few if any examples where totalitarian measures EVER helped We the People, should never have been surprising.
'both of which are now proven to reduce the probability of death and severity of symptoms in some percentage of people'
No.
As usual proof by assertion. But I know how to recognize a non-denial denial.
An assertion for an assertion.
It was all a hoax, wasn’t it? Hospital wards weren’t filling up, there wasn’t a shortage of ventilators, nobody died. Frankly nobody dissappeared. And if they did, no doubt they just went to a place where work will make you free, and are all doing just fine.
The ability to conceal or deny or just shrug off the dissappearance of large numbers of people when it’s politically convenient to do so seems a well-proven human capability.
Interesting dissent by Jackson, the result is certainly the same both ways, but she doesn't want the precedent disturbed:
"The December 16, 2022 order of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit denying petitioners’ motion to intervene is vacated, and the case is remanded to that court with instructions to dismiss the motion as moot. JUSTICE JACKSON dissents from the vacatur of the order of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and would instead dismiss the writ of certiorari as improvidently granted."
She wants to make it harder for the states to sue the federal government over immigration.
Bingo. Jackson is a Statist / totalitarian / Demunist. She wants the Federal government to be able to do whatever they want. She should be impeached.
No establishing justice, no insuring domestic tranquility, no providing for the common defense, no promoting the general welfare. All verboten!
Impeach her!
And the context this finally comes up is immigration, where no citizens or civil liberties or constitutional rights are involved? Lol!
Don't be a bad lawyer and quite what you want versus what is.
Plyler v. Doe. Even illegals have some Constitutional rights.
But they should not. Illegal entry into this country makes you a "non-uniformed combatant," and should allow summary execution. Always.
Cool. A new sociopathic edgelord with violent fantasies.
I meant that immigration isn't a right, not that immigrants don't have rights.
What do you mean, "finally"? Justice Gorsuch has certainly criticized COVID-based restrictions imposed by executive action before, and joined other Justices' criticisms. That has happened as to shutdown orders, vaccination mandates, the eviction moratorium, and more.
Next hurricane go the place it is supposed to make landfall and rant and rave about “emergency measures”. Governor Rob DeSantos shut down schools for weeks because of inclement weather! OUTRAGE!!!!
I blame that most despicable of Americans Gen. George Washington, who ordered smallpox inoculations for all his troops on January 6, 1777. He displayed no regard for personal liberty whatsoever, mistakenly believing that the health of the whole outweighed individual freedom. What a blight on our republic!
A Feb. 6 letter to Dr. William Shippen from Washington states: "Finding the smallpox to be spreading much and fearing that no precaution can prevent it from running through the whole of our Army, I have determined that the troops shall be inoculated. This expedient may be attended with some inconvenience and some disadvantages but yet I trust its consequences will have the most happy effects. Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army in the natural way and rage with its usual virulence, we have more to dread from it than from the sword of the enemy."
I'm sure at some point, Washington gave his troops a surprise inspection. At some point he may even have ordered his troops to shoot someone. That would not justify forcibly inspecting homes of the general public, let alone forcing them to start shooting.
The idea that because something was done *to soldiers under his command* it can be done to everyone is beyond absurd.
Do you think the general public has the right to get each other sick? Are you following this case, the Washington woman who is refusing treatment for tuberculosis and is making regular trips to the casino? Does she have the right to engage in spreading a contagion? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-refused-tuberculosis-treatment-not-custody-2-months-arrest-warra-rcna85076
We rejected the Briggs amendment, so yes.
What does the Briggs Amendment have to do with this topic?
What the heck IS the Briggs Amendment? He wrote that as though we'd be able to instantly identify it, but google comes up with multiple unrelated "Briggs" amendments, and none of them seem to be directly applicable.
He means the Briggs initiative. He’s implying that letting gay people be teachers spreads disease.
That's what I was afraid of.
I'd rejected that interpretation because it was just too stupid. I assumed he had some actually relevant Briggs amendment in mind.
You have an individual right to avoid other people. That does not mean you have a right to control those other people.
There is no lie a Demunist will not tell to claim moral equivalency between totalitarianism and liberty.
I shouldn't have to try to avoid you if you have a deathly contagion. Hard to tell who is sick sometimes, it's not like you hang a sign around your neck that says "I'm sick." You should have the decency to not infect the hive, Galt. But Randians are the most selfish and self absorbed people on earth, so why would you listen?
We've always had quarantine orders for people who were contagious. That's not quite the same as quarantining everyone, sick or not, exposed or not.
There is no lie Demunists will not tell to claim "moral equivalency" between liberty and totalitarianism.
Spoken like a true totalitarian. Hitler and Stalin had a long practice of accusing their opponents of doing precisely what they were doing or planned to do.
You have learned how it’s done from your masters well.
By the way, does Putin at least pay you on time for doing this?
Right. And for context, keep in mind George Washington and all the other founders were staunchly opposed to the idea of "standing armies."
The idea of a bureaucratic monstrosity with MILLIONS of people existing permanently in peacetime would have been horrific to them. Their worst fears realized.
So Washington's wartime measures for the troops under his command with respect to literally one of the most devastating diseases in human history that could wipe out the entire war effort, is a lot different from our peacetime killing bureaucracies of today and the slightly extra bad flu season of COVID. But our "liberals" of today, bless their hearts, are not only fine with that, they're ready to apply the whole program to every last man, woman, and child society-wide.
Jesus Christ, the Founders were smart and all but quit fetishizing the late 1700s.
A modern state can't function like that.
Then write a new Constitution, and get everyone on board with it.
But don't try to redefine words to change the meaning of it, or claim that the foundation for all laws can be changed at will while ignoring the required process for doing so.
Military always infringes on personal liberties, Cletus. His action saved lives and won the war.
I stand corrected. This felt like a rant that was a long time coming and looking for a convenient place to be said, but I remember those other topics now that you mention it. It is well said though and I agree with Gorsuch.
“ But maybe we have learned another lesson too. The concentration of power in the hands of so few may be efficient and sometimes popular. But it does not tend toward sound government. However wise one person or his advisors may be, that is no substitute for the wisdom of the whole of the American people that can be tapped in the legislative process.
Decisions produced by those who indulge no criticism are rarely as good as those produced after robust and uncensored debate. Decisions announced on the fly are rarely as wise as those that come after careful deliberation. Decisions made by a few often yield unintended consequences that may be avoided when more are consulted. Autocracies have always suffered these defects. Maybe, hopefully, we have relearned these lessons too.”
HOLY SHIT THE PROJECTION HERE.
You’d think this was an excerpt from Mark Joseph Stern or something talking about the courts if you didn’t know the context!
I mean just yesterday Judge Elrod was chastising a lawyer for strongly criticizing the district court’s decision in the mifepristone case. Where one dude decided to quickly set nationwide abortion policy relying on some crackpot legal theories and blogposts
instead of the one that came from the thousands of hours of deliberation at the FDA which was empowered to make those decisions after careful deliberation by Congress in setting up drug approval.
But no he’s apparently talking about literally every other type of government official who are for more accountable than he. Unfuckingbelievable.
Keep in mind who his mother was: Anne Gorsuch, former EPA head under Reagan.
Cry harder.
"Just trust federal agencies, they know best."
They might not know best but they certainly know more about their subject areas than life-tenured hacks with 3 year degrees in reading casebooks who are assisted by younger hacks with similar casebook reading experience.
At best the last actual scientific experience for the vast majority of judges and clerks was a chem or biology lab component in college.
Doubtless, many lessons can be learned from this chapter in our history, and hopefully serious efforts will be made to study it.
Doubtless one lesson has not been learned: this still-continuing pandemic has in less time than it took to fight the Civil War killed more Americans than died in the Civil War (both sides), World War II, and the Vietnam War, combined. At the outset, thousands of corpses literally were heaped in the streets of New York, albeit tastefully concealed in refrigerated trailers. And this was very far from being the most severe pandemic emergency imaginable, or even the most severe pandemic emergency likely.
Gorsuch, apparently on the basis of unreflective ideological commitment, abets and encourages counter-emergency politics, which in this instance demonstrably increased the death toll by many thousands. He speaks unwisely, because when the nation is in the grips of some far worse pandemic, to the extent his purely benighted advocacy is remembered and heeded, it will only compound the difficulty to cope with existential crisis. In the grip of a pandemic with a reasonable prospect of killing the majority of everyone, no one but fools, ideologues, and opportunists will favor hampering government power to cope with the crisis.
It is especially ironic to receive mis-counsel from Gorsuch about the dangers of too-prolonged emergency power declarations at the very moment the Covid emergency declaration has ended.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html
And you wonder why the pandemic became politicized early in its time span.
-dk
That letter exposed the very concept of public health as a fraud worse than any Bernie Madoff had dreamed of!
That was an incredibly stupid letter, but your comment is incredibly stupider. It was politicized long before that. It was politicized when Trump called the pandemic a Democratic hoax. That was in February 2020, months before the open letter. It was politicized when Trump didn't want to have testing or let infected passengers from a cruise ship back into the U.S. because it would hurt the numbers and make him look bad. That was in March 2020, months before the open letter. It was politicized when Jared advised Trump not to worry about PPE and such because COVID was primarily affecting blue states. That was in March 2020, months before the open letter. Etc., etc.
Both of those things were months earlier.
Even the AP wasn't buying that claim about Trump's remark.
AP FACT CHECK: Biden distorts Trump’s words on virus ‘hoax’
"Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden is presenting a distorted account of President Donald Trump’s words on the coronavirus, wrongly suggesting Trump branded the virus a hoax.
In fact, Trump pronounced Democratic criticism of his pandemic response a hoax."
So the defence is that the media genius managed to inadvertantly give the impression he was calling the coronavirus a hoax? This is the sort of clear communcation skills you want in a president.
He didn't give any such impression. Biden just lied about what he'd said, then carefully took part of what he'd said out of context to support the lie.
Nah, lots of people heard what he said and formed the same impression. It takes a close reading and wide context and playing jigsaw with words and sentences and an heroic amount of leeway to suggest he was saying the non-crazy thing. Anyone else would have the benefit of the doubt, true, but he trashed that long before. He’s just completely shit at communicating effectively, which paradoxically helps him because it allows his supporters to read anything they want into his word salads.
Buying into leftwing nonsense that even the AP debunked . . . this is pretty low, even for David Nieporent.
The AP says that Biden mashed together different sentences of Trump and therefore distorted Trump's words. He may have. But that does not make your claim accurate.
(Also, here is what that AP article says: "Although his meaning is difficult to discern….")
In fact, here's what Trump actually said:
If you rewrite his speech, piecing together words from all different parts of it, you could possibly come up with some claim about his pandemic response, but that's not in fact what he called a hoax. Here's the next sentences, explaining what the "this" is:
In other words, he is in fact claiming that it's a hoax. Not in the sense of the coronavirus not actually existing, but in the sense of it being a problem.
NBC 2/28/23 NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — President Donald Trump accused Democrats of “politicizing” the deadly coronavirus during a campaign rally here on Friday, claiming that the outbreak is “their new hoax” as he continued to downplay the risk in the U.S.
“Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus,” Trump said. “They have no clue, they can't even count their votes in Iowa.”
“This is their new hoax,” Trump continued, adding that attacking the White House’s response to the coronavirus had become the Democratic Party’s “single talking point.”
Trump has weaponized the word “hoax” throughout his presidency, using it to belittle and discredit former special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian election interference as well as his impeachment trial. He also has a long history of distrusting experts, most notably his own intelligence community and government scientists.
“Democrats will always say horrible things," Trump said. "Democrats want us to fail so badly.”
"more Americans than died in the Civil War"
In absolute numbers, sure, but to be a little more numerate about it, per capita Civil War deaths were about seven times the covid fatalities.
"And this was very far from being the most severe pandemic emergency imaginable, or even the most severe pandemic emergency likely. "
I completely agree. We disagree, however, on whether the best way to insure a robust response to the worst epidemics is to overreact to lesser ones. You think that is essential; I think it is quite counterproductive for when a worse one comes. Keep your powder dry, as the saying goes.
Counting those that died with Covid as having died from Covid inflates the total.
By now we know that Sweden has the lowest excess mortality rate in the world, but not the lowest Covid death rate. Lockdowns adversely affected mortality. We are also learning that masks did diddly to impede the spread of Covid, masking did drastically increase the CO2 component of inhaled air.
Ah, yes, the magic masks that can block oxygen but not viruses.
Can you think of why masks increasing CO2 of inhaled air doesn't mean that they block oxygen?
The research I've seen says that it doesn't alter either O2 or CO2 to a clinically significant extent, at rest.
While exerting yourself, that's another matter.
Church of Masks faithful David Nieporent, clinging to his fetish despite the many studies - including both observational and controlled trials - that show his faith is a lie.
He'll happily claim there is no such evidence, but somehow fails to ever show any problems in those hundreds of studies. Of course, since he's not capable of understanding even the most basic studies, this isn't surprising.
That's if he ever even read them - remember, David is the same guy that spent multiple days insulting and mocking a commenter for disagreeing with him about a workers comp law that David was an "expert" in. Turns out the guy was right, and David was wrong, but because he'd never bothered to actually look at the law in question, he didn't even know. He was happy to claim he did, though.
It's the Greatest Hits of the year 2020, folks.
And David AGAIN recycles his lies from 2020, to claim that people whose death certificates include such causes a "gunshot wound, multiple" or "drowning" alongside the "COVID" code actually died the disease.
If he ever took 30 seconds, he could go to the CDC's COVID website, and SEE how the ICD codes work out... but that might test his faith, and his membership in the Branch Covidians is more important to him than any mere truth.
Most of the COVID deaths were the elderly and morbidly obese. Fact.
“ Since March 2020, we may have experienced the greatest intrusions on civil liberties in the peacetime history of this country.”
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME.
This guy is either a complete fucking dipshit who was comatose in even his whitewashed HS history classes or a lying troll.
No, that'd be you. Gorsuch is spot on.
COVID restrictions were a greater intrusion than slavery? Jim Crow? Prohibition? Get real, moron.
One major public official was defeated because of Covid—the governor of Nevada because casino bosses fought him the entire pandemic. So Gorsuck is firmly on the side of some of the most despicable people on the planet along with coke heads that couldn’t snort cocaine through their masks.
I would not lay his defeat on COVID.
Restrictions were over by the spring of 2021.
Not the eviction moratorium.
Than slavery? No, you certainly have him there. Than prohibition? Absolutely yes, and it's not even close. I don't think there has been a case in the history of the country where it was made illegal for everyone in a state to go to church, visit neighbors, work at most businesses, etc. Not being able to buy alcohol is peanuts compared to that.
Prohibition ushered in a massive federal law enforcement bureaucracy that we are still dealing with. This included the early surveillance state. The government also deliberately poisoned ethanol supplies to discourage drinking resulting in 1000s of deaths and illness.
Perhaps slavery,
But I said in the experience of any American living today. And give us the global economic balance.
That’s not what Gorsuch said.
And the economic balance is irrelevant to the civil liberties question.
There are millions of Americans living today who experienced Jim Crow, and the official terrorism to enforce it. There are millions of Americans living today who were conscripted into the military and sent overseas to fight. There are millions of Americans living today who have had their property permanently seized, and/or were sent to prison, because they committed victimless crimes.
"Boo hoo, I had to wear a mask when I went out, or use Zoom to see people for a while" doesn't really compare to any of those things.
You minimize the extent of the Covid restrictions. In my state:
"All individuals present within the State of Wisconsin are ordered to stay at home or at their place of residence, with exceptions outlined below."
"All for-profit and non-profit businesses with a facility in Wisconsin, except Essential Businesses and Operations as defined below, are required to cease all activities at facilities located within Wisconsin".
"All public and private gatherings of any number of people that are not part of a single household or living unit are prohibited, except for the limited purposes expressly permitted in this Order."
"All forms of travel are prohibited, except for Essential Travel as defined in this Order. "
Yes. COVID affected everyone, while Jim Crow only affected 13% of the population, of which 80% of that 13% needed the restrictions.
Okay, LTG, I call you on you claim.
How about you give us a detailed far-reaching example of an instance within the memory of any American living today. An while you're at it tally up the attendant economic destruction.
Kind of limiting yourself with “in living memory” when that’s not what Gorsuch claimed.
But even so Jim Crow involved the wholesale denial of civil liberties to millions of people not just for a few months, but their entire lives. An entire society was built around excluding a race of people and that exclusion also limited the liberty of the favored race. Segregation meant that white people couldn’t marry, date, do business, or go to school with black people even if they wanted to.
The southern governments used violence to enforce this regime and the feds pretty much let them. Indeed federal agencies viewed civil rights activists with suspicion and were surveilling those groups constantly.
Even into the sixties the southern government
sanctioned the murders of people, white and black, who were registering people to vote.
Anyone who thinks the short covid restrictions were the same as that is either delusional or think it doesn’t matter because black people don’t really count.
It all comes down to how you measure. Covid restrictions covered nearly 100% of the population whereas slavery and Jim Crow targeted only about 10%.
So if the “greatest intrusion” is measured by how much of the population is intruded upon, then Gorsuch appears to be right on.
Your figures are low. Like I said, Jim Crow didn’t just restrict black people, it limited whites too, so it’s more then 10%. It also lasted far longer and had generational effects we’re still dealing with. Most of the toughest COVID restrictions lasted a few months. Jim Crow lasted 70 years. And Jim Crow was enforced with massive amounts of violence. Covid restrictions were barely enforced.
If you can find me an example of someone being murdered for not masking properly and the government refusing to investigate I’d be interested. Because there are several prominent examples of voting rights activists that experienced that.
The really absurd part about Gorsuch's rant is that he's not even complaining about the relatively minor COVID restrictions; he's complaining about the procedures for implementing the relatively minor COVID restrictions.
Why wouldn't that be the case? He's a Justice, after all, and isn't like 90% of the work of judges making sure the correct procedure was followed?
It's like saying, "He's not even complaining about the house being taken, he's complaining about the owner not being compensated!"
The point is your 'relatively minor' (Compared to what? China welding doors shut?) Covid restrictions were often implemented by people who weren't legally entitled to impose them. Frequently legislatures would consider some measure that maybe they were legally entitled to enact, decide not to enact them, and then some clown in the executive branch would second guess them and impose it anyway. And way too often the courts let them, under the excuse of 'emergency'.
Like the concept of 'emergency' powers is ever applicable to cases where the legislature has had time to consider the matter.
'under the excuse of ’emergency’.'
It was an emergency.
It's not an "emergency" if you have time to deal with it in regular order. The whole point of declaring something an "emergency" is that things are supposedly happening too fast or violently for normal procedure to be followed. If you had time to go through normal procedure it's inherently illegitimate to bypass it.
Covid was too slow motion to be treated as an emergency for legal purposes. There was plenty of time for the legislature to consider actions, and in many cases people in the executive branches of states had imposed changes to procedure which their legislatures had considered and rejected.
It's no different that Lincoln usurping the power to suspend the writ of habeus corpus, a power of Congress, when the courts were still operating, outside war zones, and when Congress could have been called into session to consider the matter.
Covid wasn't slow motion at all. It spread like wildfire. You're supposed to be *prepared* for this kind of emergency, and use what time there is to put those preperations in place, not wrangling with procedures while it's filling up the hospitals.
The pandemic lasted a couple of years, Nige; You really think no legislature met during that time to consider potential responses?
They shouldn't have had to - the systems should already have been in place. Muddling through half-arsed responses in the middle of the pandemic with a rabid political faction claiming that there wasn't a pandemic at all was a farce.
It's actually nothing like that; that's a substantive objection, not a procedural one.
Gorsuch is saying "It's a terrible violation of civil liberties to have these [so-called] lockdown orders… issued by executive branch officials." But in fact terrible violations of civil liberties remain terrible violations of civil liberties whether they're undertaken unilaterally by executive branch officials or whether the legislature tells them they can do it.
That doesn't mean that the procedure used doesn't affect the legality of the order; it does. It means that it doesn’t affect the rights-violatingness of the order. (Which is why your objections to substantive due process are wrong.)
Look, if the government uses eminent domain to take your house, following proper procedure, and for a genuine public use, it's not a civil rights violation, because you don't have a civil right to be free of eminent domain properly done.
But if the government just up and takes your property without compensating you? Yeah, that IS a civil rights violation.
That's not how constitutional rights work, though. They're not a 'don't do thus except following proper procedure.'
The right you're talking about even notes that: "Nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"
Nothing about procedure, just about substance.
Procedural due process is a whole different thing.
That is literally how many civil rights work.
Civil rights...do you mean like the CRA? That's a positive right, with the following positive rights push:
"Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
You're still off base. You were wrong about eminent domain; and Gorsuch and DMN are not talking about laws passed under Section 5.
I LIKE sitting in the back of the bus, classroom, wherever, and although I only fly First Class, it'd be even First Classier if they put it in the rear of the Jet (with "Separate but Equal" entrance doors of course) that's the worst part of flying First Class, having to suffer the Hoi Poloi filing past like they're at frigging Treblinka.
Frank
Nico, I'm your example. Growing up under Jim Crow was terrifying, even for white people like me, because it was intended to be. A society built on systematized infliction of injustice is a society founded on universal violence. Except for the folks in charge, the worst of the worst, no one escapes the fear that produces. If you think Covid was anything like that, I cannot fault you. Without the experience of it, it is scarcely imaginable.
The Tuskegee experiments.
The CIAs mind-control experiments.
The Patriot Act.
Bush-Cheney-Scalia torture regime.
1: you left out Obama Bin Laden getting killed due to the information gained from Waterboarding, oh I'm sorry "Torturing" KSM
2: and it wasn't Tuskegee "Experiments" it was "The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male" Started during the terms of a DemoKKKrat and ended by Richard Milhouse in 1972. It was just the kind of "Basic Medical Science Research" that peoples like Faux-chi get hard-ons over, lets see if I can explain it at an imbecile level,
See, before Penicillin, Syphilis was treated with nice safe medications like Arsenic and Mercury, which killed about as many peoples as the Syphilis itself, and it was known that some peoples with Syphilis lived to a ripe old age, apparently with only mild Dementia (see Syphilitic Joe Biden) so, a Study was born...
Of course when Penicillin came out, it didn't really make sense not to treat Syphilis, but you know what they say about Government Programs?
No seriously, what do they say about Government Programs?
Frank
Edgebot ate a wiki page. Then vomited.
Nope, some of us actually have professional degrees and make a living practicing those professions.
You don't get to shitpost for months on end and then claim authority on anything. Shitposters don't get to take off the shit and put on glasses and say 'I was a professional the whole time.'
As Popehat says, if you fuck goats ironically, you're still just a goatfucker.
edgebot got a edgey diploma from edgey university for edgey bots in the botsville area of edgetown and went on to get a phdee in advanced edgey bot studies. It took ten minutes and cost six million edgebitbotcoins.
Sorry Gorsuch, too little too late. It's easy to declare this after the fact, but you and your colleagues should have been issuing injunctions as these totalitarian actions were being promulgated.
Indeed they should have. And didn't in even the most clear cut cases, such as that damned eviction moratorium.
Correct. And then they were played by Pedo Joe's administration in July of 2021 when he said it was ending and then lied.
Same with the current unconstitutional gun laws. The judges, even "conservative" ones, are so obsessed with "process" that they allow BS to percolate in the courts for years. Justice delayed is justice denied, I thought.
I'll take 'things a white, tone-deaf, right-wing dumbass might say' for one hundred, Alex . . .
Here here, sir...
Gorsuch is but a judiciary cockwomble IMHO.
How many justices joined any part of the Gorsuch statement?
How many associated themselves with a word of the Gorsuch statement?
How many endorsed a syllable, or letter, or punctuation mark of the Gorsuch statement?
The cranky old conservative white guy is off by himself, howling at the moon.
Coach Sandusky, Doth Do Protest-eth too much-eth,
I'm beginning to think you're about as much a lawyer as Matlock was. Your rain of terror ended too soon, would have loved to see how your Mesolithic Defensive Scheme would do against a modern Offense,
Frank
How nice to read your literate, civil, and well-informed commentary, Rev.
I do not ascribe this entirely, or even mostly, to partisanship.
I sense it derives largely from grievance with respect to people holding his mother to account for being such a shitty public employee.
I admire that Gorsuch has put these ideas into writing ... but there is absolutely nothing new about this whatsoever. Throughout history, and even American history, law has been set aside in the face of fear (or its manipulators).
Lincoln suspended habeas corpus without having the clear authority to do so ... the Supreme Court supported internment of Japanese Americans during WWII (and also sterilization of the "feeble-minded") ... the US Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790 out of deep-seated prejudice, etc.
The lesson they learned is that they can concoct an emergency and courts might be there to help restore some part of the regular order after a year or two.
The public never gets back the year or two lost to the totalitarians, or any of the other losses, and the totalitarians never face any consequences, no matter how many people they hurt, no matter how much harm is done.
And a whole class of the worst people in world history will rejoice upon every harmful act done to innocents.
And all the fake people who fake died in the fake emergency jump out of their coffins and yell 'gotcha!'
A lot of the people who really died, died because of the Covid response, not Covid itself. Stopping 'elective' procedures like heart and cancer treatment, in order to reserve beds for a wave of Covid patients that never materialized except in very local cases, killed, and will continue for some years to kill, a lot of people.
More people died due to the economic damage the lockdowns caused; Poverty kills, after all. And death rates from alcohol and drug abuse, and suicide, spiked, too, on account of that damage.
A lot of the excess death wasn't Covid, it was iatrogenic.
Jesus Christ you wanted them to bring people who were already ill, immunocomromised and medically vulnerable into hospitals full of people with covid. You are an idiot.
Yes, what a pity we went into covid with a society were most of the wealth is concentrated at the top and most of the middle are in a constant state of financial precariousness and most people can't afford to access the mental health care they need.
You really are an idiot, aren't you? You think hospitals don't routinely have sick people in them, that this was just something bizarre that happened during the Covid pandemic, and we just had to shut down everything hospitals did except housing Covid patients, even when most hospitals were nowhere near overloaded?
And you'll defend 'blue' state governors forcing old age homes to admit Covid carriers, but you think cancer patients should have delayed their treatment a year or two because there might have been some Covid patients in the same hospital?
You think hospitals don’t routinely have sick people in them, that this was just something bizarre that happened during the Covid pandemic, and we just had to shut down everything hospitals did except housing Covid patients, even when most hospitals were nowhere near overloaded?
Bellmore, you have no idea what you are talking about. Apparently, you did not happen to be in a heavily-affected area.
My medical care takes me about 20 times a year to two of the hospitals which each had many hundreds of Covid patients during surges, with horrific daily mortality. My treatment, along with as much other outpatient care as could be managed, was moved into buildings separate from the Covid care. I thus had a relatively safe perch from which to watch month-by-month the plunge into exhaustion and fear which medical staff members all suffered.
The courage on display was humbling. At one point those two hospitals between them had hundreds of medical staff out with Covid. Of course some of those died with their patients. Their friends and associates—who were isolated as much as possible to enable them to continue to treat non-Covid cases—nevertheless suffered those losses.
Your minimization of the Covid pandemic is of a moral piece with your minimization of gun violence. You are fine with however much adversity other people suffer; you like to sneer at other peoples' suffering.
"My medical care takes me about ..."
Let us know the details so we can advocate to make that care illegal. We'll justify ourselves by saying we're happy to obey the law ourselves -- we don't need that particular medical care, after all.
I trust that you'll have no objection, given your defense of laws that harm others, but won't affect you personally -- you're willing to abide by those laws
Someone you consider wise said obeying laws isn't a punishment. So no problem when we make your medical treatment illegal.
Is this supposed to be an attempt at irony? Because Republicans are passing laws to make medical treatments illegal.
Brett have you talked to *any* health care workers? Sure seems like you've only talked to your own ass, because Jesus Christ this is ignorant. Covid was not just your average day of sick people in hospitals.
Your thesis that the government response to Covid was very bad because they didn't follow what you totally would have done is irritating, especially when you mistake your confidence for anything like being informed.
Cancer isn't your every day 'elective' procedure, either.
Doctors see advanced cancer cases in the wake of pandemic-delayed screenings and treatment
A lot of the 'elective' procedures that got put off due to Covid restrictions on hospitals weren't actually all that elective.
Of course, if you're happy for the disease to run through the population with no regard for immunocompromised people like cancer patients, sending them into hospitals full of people with the same disease is no different, I guess.
This isn't just statistics to me. My uncle had a doctor's appointment cancelled on him in March, when the entire state was shut down even though the hospitals were mostly empty. He managed, with difficulty, to get a new appointment in June. He was diagnosed with a super aggressive cancer in June and died in July. I have to wonder if things would have been different if he had been able to get that first appointment.
There were surely hospitals that were overloaded at times, and perhaps most were overloaded at some point in time.
But there is a kernel of truth: at the same time that e.g. NY had hospitals that were terribly overloaded, covid hadn't arrived locally in any numbers, but the local hospitals were ordered to shut down anything that was remotely optional, i.e. if you had a leg torn off in a crash you got care but biopsies, tumor removals, etc, etc were halted. IIRC the hospital utilization rate dropped to 3% for a while. This went on for quite a while. Nurses were furloughed and the hospitals were in real financial trouble. And the paper had heart rending articles of e.g. cancer patients unable to get needed surgery.
In time, covid cases picked up, not like NY, but enough that a lot of other care would have been delayed.
There is no way to say, IMHO, that the hospital load was managed effectively. I'm operating with the benefit of hindsight, to be sure, but even at the time it seemed like they shutdown important care in a manner that was too soon and too inflexible. It's a mistake we should learn from, not deny.
Yeah, a lot of my friends are married to nurses, so I heard a lot of horror stories about that.
Were there some overwrought news reports? Sure.
But Brett's point is still at variance with the reality of Covid in hospitals:
You think hospitals don’t routinely have sick people in them, that this was just something bizarre that happened during the Covid pandemic, and we just had to shut down everything hospitals did except housing Covid patients, even when most hospitals were nowhere near overloaded?
If Brett's friends with nurses, that makes it even dumber:
"overwrought news reports"
Out of curiosity, what's the best way to decide that a news report is overwrought without reading it?
"If Brett’s friends with nurses, that makes it even dumber"
Well, count me as dumb, too, because that is exactly what our nurse friends were telling is. I mean, it wasn't controversial. The public health people were saying it, the hospitals were saying it. No one was disputing it. People might think having the empty hospitals was smart as an insurance policy, but no one was saying they weren't empty.
They don't routinely have wards packed with people sick with a highly communicable ariborne virus. I haven't once defended the care home scandal, but there's a clue right there about how having lots of vulnerable people in with lots of sick people turns out.
We can see that you bought the lies about the virus, but can you not see past them to understand that CDC changed the definition of cause of death in a way that multiplied by 20 the number of COVID-caused deaths, that ventilators are likelier to kill than to help patients with breathing issues, that effective treatments were rejected in favor of palliatives and later a medication that is frequently fatal, and that needless restriction on ordinary medical access led to delayed diagnosis and treatment of medical conditions? If you cannot, then you need to get better informed.
CDC changed the definition of cause of death in a way that multiplied by 20 the number of COVID-caused death
Someone's been telling you really stupid lies, and you've been believing them.
Democrats, by their own admission, censor true statements.
You have no way of knowing whether his statement is true, false, or somewhere in between. All you know is whichever stories you heard and decided to believe.
More weird nonsense from you. You're increasingly unhinged with your rejection of reality due to liberal lies thing lately.
Enjoy your hateful postmodern bubble, and don't shoot anyone.
Dear Prof. Volokh:
Please pass on to Justice Gorsuch how pleased I was to read what he said re: Title 42, etc. Specially about lawmaking via litigation. And gently remind him that very few consider his "gotcha" lawmaking in Bostock to be any better an example...
In 5,000 years of recorded human history, it is difficult if not impossible to find a single example of when any totalitarian measure benefited anyone but the totalitarians.
Time to abolish all "Emergency Powers" apart from mobilizing military and emergency services. Let government advise if they will, let citizens make their own decisions.
it is profoundly disturbing to see that a Supreme Court Justice has his head so far up the FOX/GOP alternate reality. Along with a large chunk of the commentariat here.
e. e. cummings would be proud of your capitalization, if not your grammar and logic.
I recall, in 2017, the sudden and coordinated appearance of signs calling on Americans to RESIST. The promoters of this movement were the very same people who would ostracize, penalize, report to the police, and otherwise oppose anyone who took a rational approach to the virus, to the draconian restrictions imposed in response to it, and to the illegitimate medications and treatments used in the name of prevention and treatment of it.
The handful of Americans whose wits and self-possession did not desert them during the virus "crisis" have no sympathy for the power grabbers nor for the sheep who accommodated them. We know that the cost to our republic of their malfeasance is incalculable and likely permanent.
Those who exchange liberty for temporary safety will soon have neither.
Your pet study reads as if it was written by an engineer or economist, not an epidemiologist or doctor. Oh wait, the lead writer is an osteopath. Now it makes sense.
Here is an interesting study – Covid deaths per political affiliation. States with Republican governors fared far worse long term.
https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(21)00135-5/fulltexthttps://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/states-republican-governors-had-highest-covid-incidence-death-rates-study-n1260700
“Covid deaths are unevenly distributed among Republicans and Democrats.
Average excess death rates in Florida and Ohio were 76% higher among Republicans than Democrats from March 2020 to December 2021, according to a working paper released last month by the National Bureau of Economic Research. Excess deaths refers to deaths above what would be anticipated based on historical trends.
A study in June published in Health Affairs similarly found that counties with a Republican majority had a greater share of Covid deaths through October 2021, relative to majority-Democratic counties.
But experts are still puzzling over why these differences exist. Are lower vaccination rates among Republicans responsible? Or did mask use and social distancing guidelines prevent more deaths in counties run by Democrats?
The Yale researchers behind the new working paper say vaccine hesitancy among Republicans may be the biggest culprit.
“In counties where a large share of the population is getting vaccinated, we see a much smaller gap between Republicans and Democrats,” said Jacob Wallace, an author of that study and an assistant professor of health policy at the Yale School of Public Health.
Indeed, his paper found that the partisan gap in the deaths widened from April to December 2021, after all adults became eligible for Covid vaccines. Excess death rates in Florida and Ohio were 153% higher among Republicans than Democrats during that time, the paper showed.”
Oh wait, maybe they forgot to cull the old and fat ones...
Funny, the linked article doesn’t seem to include the text you quote, and the linked article even refers to a different study. I’m deeply confused.
Also, because pandemics exhibit different temporal behavior in sub-tropical (more summer biased) and temperate environments (more winter biased), a study which starts with data from March and ends in December isn’t going to give a good picture, since it’s basically missing winter entirely. (I'm relying on the study linked to and discussed in the article you actually linked)
Of course, it’s also a study done in Dec 2020. Surely you can find something more recent than that. (Or link the actual article you quoted).
Good Ol boy Gorsuch should get with Clarence Thomas and Alito and stop turning away cases that have to do with election integrity. If these shitheads don't stop selecting cases based on their "not wanting to seem partisan, then what will happen is they will lose the court as we have the alphabet agencies. The court needs to step in and shore up conservatism wherever possible. They are supposed to be traditionalist, but they are applying themselves whenever its suites them. They need to be an activist court for the constitution. The liberal members try every single case as activist communists so why won't the known Conservatives act for the preservation of our founding documents. They're acting as if no one knows they're conservative. Quit pussyfooting around and get in there and get dirty. We're a fight to save our republic and you guy's act like you can stay neutral. Well sorry guys you can't.