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Preliminary Injunction Against NJ Ban on Peaceable Carry
Today the U.S. District Court for New Jersey issued a very thorough 230-page preliminary injunction against much of the New Jersey legislature's Bruen response bill. As in the years after Brown v. Board of Education, some state legislatures under the sway of anti-civil rights lobbies have engaged in massive resistance to Bruen.
A similar law in New York was preliminarily enjoined by several district courts, but the injunctions were stayed in a Second Circuit opinion that declined to provide any reasoning. Second Circuit oral argument was held in March.
Background: The consolidated New Jersey cases are Koons v. Platkin, no. 22-7474 and Siegel v. Platkin, no. 22-7463. Lead attorneys were David Jensen in Koons and Daniel Schmutter in Siegel. The Koons plaintiffs included the Second Amendment Foundation and the Firearms Policy Coalition, while the Siegel plaintiffs included the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs.
The preliminary injunction was issued by Chief Judge Renee Marie Bumb, who was nominated by President George W. Bush and unanimously confirmed by the Senate in 2006. Previously, Judge Bumb served for 15 years as an Assistant United States Attorney. In January, Judge Bumb had issued a detailed Temporary Restraining Order. The PI decision comes after extensive briefing by the parties, and the New Jersey Attorney General brief shows the state of the art for massive resistance.
This post will address 1. The new carry licensing rules in New Jersey. 2. The new bans on licensed carry in many locations. 3. Some additional issues.
The opinion notes the New Jersey Attorney General's implicit contempt for its duty to justify infringements on civil rights:
Remarkably, despite numerous opportunities afforded by this Court to hold evidentiary hearings involving the presentation of evidence, the State called no witnesses. And despite assurances by the State that it would present sufficient historical evidence as required by Bruen to support each aspect of the new legislation, the State failed to do so.
The New Jersey legislature's contempt for the rule of law was obvious:
The legislative record reveals the Legislature paid little to no mind to Bruen and the law-abiding New Jerseyans' right to bear arms in public for self-defense. . . . When Assemblymen Brian Bergen asked the law's primary sponsor, Assemblymen Joseph Danielsen, if he had read Bruen, Danielsen responded "me reading the Court's decision is not part of the bill." . . . And when pressed by Bergen on whether the Founding Founders limited the Second Amendment to "town squares," "taverns," "public parks," and "beaches," Danielsen refused to answer the question, telling Bergen to "stay on the bill." . . . Throughout his questioning with Bergen, Danielsen evaded questions on the historical support for the new law. At another hearing, when Assemblywomen Victoria Flynn simply asked Danielsen where law-abiding citizens could conceal carry, Danielsen's response included such statements as: "reasonable persons exercising common sense would have an expectation that guns are not being brought in except by law enforcement . . . you are not going to mindlessly put a loaded firearm on your person and just leave the house."
. . .
This has left the Court to do what the Legislature had said it had done, but clearly did not. The Court has conducted its own exhaustive research into this Nation's history and tradition of regulating firearms that Bruen mandates.
. . .
[W]hat the State and the Legislature-Intervenors ignore, and what their empirical evidence fails to address, is that this legislation is aimed primarily—not at those who unlawfully possess firearms—but at law-abiding, responsible citizens who satisfy detailed background and training requirements and whom the State seeks to prevent from carrying a firearm in public for self-defense.
Simply owning a firearm in New Jersey requires a lengthy and intensive background check. To acquire a firearm, an individual must have been issued a Firearms Identification Card, which requires a fingerprint background check and safety training. On top of that, every single handgun acquisition requires a separate permit to purchase. Permits are issued by local police departments. A FID card is valid until revoked, whereas a carry permit lasts only two years.
Carry license requirements
Rejection of applicants who pass the background check. An applicant may be denied if the issuing officer finds that the applicant "would pose a danger to self or others." The determination is subject to judicial review. The discretion was upheld based on the long historical tradition of disarming dangerous people. The court was skeptical of the notion that the Second Amendment applies only to persons whom the legislature deems to be "virtuous citizens," but even setting that ahistorical notion aside, the historical statutory precedents were more than sufficient to uphold the new statute. A vagueness challenge was also rejected.
Four endorsers. Carry permits and permits to purchase handguns must have four endorsers. Although the State failed to provide any precedents for the endorser requirement in general, the Court conducted its own research and found sufficient precedents in some historic laws requiring endorsements for arms possession by certain disfavored groups--namely slaves, religious minorities (occasionally), and disloyal persons in wartime.
In-person interview for endorsers. For carry permits, the applicants and the endorsers must be interviewed in person. The latter requirement was held to be unduly burdensome.
"Such other information." Under the new law, an applicant must provide "such other information" that the licensing officer requests. Plaintiffs alleged that the ominbus information requirements chills their free speech, but they failed to provide any specific examples, so the First Amendment request for a PI was denied.
The "such other information" requirement raises serious privacy concerns, such as if the issuing officer required urinalysis or medical records. Thus, the "such other information" is judicially limited "to only those objective facts bearing on the applicant's dangerousness or risk of harm to the public." As such, the requirement is consistent with Bruen's affirmation of the legality of background checks for "Shall Issue" carry permits.
Fees. Before the state legislature enacted the massive resistance law in 2022, the fees were $5 for a FID, $2 for a handgun purchase permit, and $50 for a carry permit. These were raised to $50, $25, and $200. The court was skeptical that these fees were "exorbitant" (which Bruen forbids), and noted that the Second Circuit had previously upheld New York City's $340 fee for handgun possession license applicants, based on proof that the amount actually did reflect the City's costs in processing and investigating applications. The court was annoyed that New Jersey had failed to present any evidence about the costs justifying the fees, but the court declined to issue a PI.
Insurance mandate. Carry applicants must prove that they have a $300,000 policy "insuring against loss resulting from liability imposed by law for bodily injury, death, and property damage sustained by any person arising out of the ownership, maintenance, operation or use of a firearm carried in public."
This law has no historical precedent. Nineteenth century surety of the peace statutes are inapposite. They merely required the posting of a bond for six months or a year if a person had been judicially found to be threatening to breach the peace.
Likewise inapposite are 19th century tort laws imposing strict liability on firearms users for injuries. These laws are not analogous to a blanket mandate for everyone who bears arms.
Bans on carry at particular places
Heller stated that some laws are "presumptively constitutional," including bans on carrying arms in "sensitive places such as schools and government buildings." The rule cannot be extended to cover all property owned by a government.
Public gatherings. The statute forbids carry "within 100 feet of a place for a public gathering, demonstration or event is held for which a government permit is required." Yet many colonial period laws required bringing arms to some or all public gatherings.
Some late 19th century state or territorial laws did forbid arms carrying at a few or most public gatherings. Some of these laws were upheld by state courts based on an (incorrect) militiacentric understanding of the Second Amendment. There are not enough of them to create a national tradition.
Traditionally, "sensitive places" are locations where certain core government functions take place, such as legislative chambers, courthouses, or polling places, and those places were traditionally protected by armed security provided by the government. Thus, the public gatherings ban is overbroad.
Zoos. Although a few zoos in the nineteenth century banned arms carry, many did not. The fact that children visit zoos does not turn zoos into sensitive places. The State's purported fear of poaching is "strained."
Parks, Beaches, Recreational Facilities, and Playgrounds. There is zero historical support for a ban at beaches. The playground ban was upheld, as in the TRO, as analogous to bans at schools. The history of carry bans in parks comes almost entirely from the late 19th century, and the one state law plus 25 municipal laws only covered 10% of the U.S. population and did not establish a representative tradition, especially considering their lateness.
Youth Sports Events. As in the TRO, upheld as analogous to schools.
Public Libraries and Museums. Void. The few late 19th century laws did not establish a representative tradition.
Bars and Restaurants Where Alcohol is Served. A late 19th century Oklahoma law against firearms anyplace that liquor is sold, plus an 1859 Connecticut law against selling alcohol near a military encampment do not establish a representative tradition. Laws against selling guns to intoxicated persons are not analogous. Of course private restaurant or tavern owners are free to ban carry if they choose.
Entertainment Facilities. The late 19th-century Tennessee, Texas, and Missouri laws plus the New Orleans law against firearms at public ballrooms do not establish a tradition.
Casinos. Gambling facilities are older than the United States. There is no historical precedent for a ban.
Airports. At oral argument, New Jersey said that people could carry handguns when dropping off or pickup of passengers, as long as they do not enter the airport building. The court enjoined enforcement against passengers checking firearms in baggage pursuant to TSA rules, as long as the firearm is in a TSA-compliant (locked case) before it enters the airport, and the passengers do not linger with the case before checking it in. Absent evidentiary hearing, the court declined to go further at this stage.
Transportation Hubs. In briefing, the State contended that a "transportation hub" is only something that is multi-modal, such as Newark Penn Station, where subway and train lines meet. A "hub" does not include a mere stop at a train-only station. Awaiting further factual development, the court declined to issue an injunction.
Health Care Facilities. Plaintiffs had demonstrated standing only for medical offices and ambulatory care facilities. There being no precedents to justify a ban, the ban was enjoined for these locations.
Public Film Locations. Analogized to entertainment facilities and, as such, enjoined for lack of historical precedent.
Vehicles. A carry permit holder may not have a functional firearm in her own automobile. Instead, the handgun must be unloaded and stored in a locked case or in the trunk. This is a huge infringement on the right to bear arms for self-defense and is contrary to colonial tradition of protecting arms carry while traveling. The 1876 Iowa law against shooting at trains is hardly analogous. Two 1871 municipal laws against carrying gunpowder in vehicles were fire safety measure addressing the volatile blackpowder of the time. There are not such risks for modern metal-cased ammunition.
Fish and Game Restrictions. No plaintiffs had standing for the carry ban at a "state game refuge," since no plaintiffs have declared an intent to visit such a place. One plaintiff wanted to carry a handgun for personal protection while hunting with a shotgun. The ban was upheld based on historic fish and game laws. The ban on having a functional firearm in the vehicle while driving to or from hunting is void for the same reason that the general ban in vehicles is void.
*Vampire rule for all private property. This is by far the most important restriction. It forbids licensed carriers from entering any private property unless the owner affirmatively grants permission for carrying. As applied to private property that is not held open to the public, the court held that this presumption does not implicate the Second Amendment or any other part of the Constitution.
Some private property, however, is traditionally open to the public without special conditions, absent express signage to the contrary. This includes retail establishments. "Here, the State, not private landowners, burdens carriers' lawful entry onto the property of another with a 'no-carry' default. The Default Rule is thus state action insofar as the State is construing the sound of silence."
The vampire rule is not supported by historic laws against hunting or trapping on someone else's enclosed land without permission. Three broader Reconstruction-era laws from Texas, Louisiana, and Oregon are insufficient to establish a tradition under Bruen.
Other issues
Equal protection. Exempting judges and prosecutors from the location restrictions does not violate Equal Protection, because they are at higher risk of criminal attack and are more thoroughly vetted than ordinary citizens.
Unjustified display. The ban on unjustified display is saved by the State's concessions that a mens rea of "knowing" is required and that the ban does not apply to drawing a handgun for self-defense.
"all guns are bad." This was, in the court's view, the basic public interest argument of the legislative intervenors against a preliminary injunction. However, "the Intervenors' argument ignores the fundamental right of self-defense. Although the Intervenors cite to statistics involving gun violence, they do not cite to statistics involving law-abiding citizens with carry permits who used their firearms to save lives." Indeed, "despite ample opportunity for an evidentiary hearing, the State has failed to offer any evidence that law-abiding responsible citizens who carry firearms in public for self-defense are responsible for an increase in gun violence."
In sum, the New Jersey statute "went too far, becoming the kind of law that Founding Father Thomas Jefferson would have warned against since it 'disarm[s] only those who are not inclined or determined to commit crimes [and] worsen[s] the plight of
the assaulted, but improve[s] those of the assailants.'"
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A whole lot of words to say "shall not be infringed".
Oh, wait.
The court actually said "you can infringe a lot, but only in these ways, not those ways".
I would like to see these fees, licenses, and infringements applied to a mandatory license required for posting on any and all social media.
These were raised to $50, $25, and $200.
Firearms Identification Card, which requires a fingerprint background check and safety training.
Carry permits and permits to purchase handguns must have four endorsers.
For carry permits, the applicants and the endorsers must be interviewed in person.
Under the new law, an applicant must provide "such other information" that the licensing officer requests.
Scalia Doctrine—-if a ruling is wrong then state legislatures and municipalities should push the boundaries like they did with Roe. One day Heller/McDonald/Bruen will be overturned just like Plessy v Ferguson and Roe.
Yep. Look forward to 50 years of legislatures ignoring federal law and adding waiting periods; require the gun buyer to see two different armorers 72 hours apart; view sonogram of gun to see if one in the chamber; force buyer to view photos of 3rd graders with their heads blown off etc
Point being, there's an awful lot of restrictions you can place on constitutional rights, ain't that right bubba?
Heller was wrongly decided and so all of its progeny are also wrong…Scalia Doctrine means never stop beating back wrongly decided precedent until it is overturned. The one thing Heller had going for it was Roe but once that was overturned then liberals no longer have to pretend to respect precedent.
Heller wasn't wrongly decided at all. There was literally no 19th century support for the "collective" interpretation, it was made up whole cloth in the 20th century to support the first ever federal gun control legislation.
The Bill of Rights was literally drafted to protect individual rights...just like the English Bill of Rights, you know...the document it was based on. Coincidently in that English Bill of Rights, you'll find a right to arms. But apparently according to you, the founders skipped over that one and rejected the right to arms they enjoyed for well over 100 years before ratifying the American Bill of Rights.
You're a partisan hack that wants to ban guns, and the Bill of Rights is blocking you from doing so, that's it.
Not only did they skip over it (the English right to arms) according to you, but Madison's notes referencing that right definitely doesn't exist when he introduced the right to arms. You people are ridiculous because almost all of you think this debate started in 1791, when it was settled entirely in 1689.
The Americans did not eliminate their own right to arms when they broke away from England. That's Ahistorical.
So who did the individual right apply to prior to the 14A?? Because at the ratification of the BoR and decades after it was understood the BoR only applied to the federal government…so that means the 2A only applied to citizens in DC and federal territories which is why McDonald was necessary. So do you agree with Heller that the 2A was drafted as an individual right specifically to protect the RKBA for citizens in DC and federal territories??
Yes - just as every other significant individual right in the Bill of Rights was incorporated onto the states via selective incorporation. That the last right so acknowledged was the Second Amendment in McDonald makes it no less incorporated. It does, however, make it the longest standing such right that had been violated by states so among the most egregious violations due to the duration of its infringement.
Being recently incorporated there are, of course, those who will cling to the notion that somehow the Second Amendment with its 'shall not be infringed' (vs., for example, the softer 'shall make no law' in the First Amendment) language or to the notion that the word 'people' means one thing everywhere else in the Constitution (including four other places in the BoR - one of which, in the Tenth Amendment, makes it clear that 'people' and 'state' are two different concepts) and, oddly, something different in its use in the Second Amendment.
Fortunately such clingers will age out and be left to rant in old folks homes just as a few decades ago people probably ranted that only criminals have anything to hide so a state court should be able to force them to testify against themselves. These clingers will soon be in the discredited dustbin of history. However, educated people who once held "clinger's beliefs" will slowly learn and assimilate reality and logic and in the old folks homes will be among those laughing at the clingers.
The right to bear arms is not the most recent right to be incorporated.
That is correct. The Eighth Amendment’s Excessive Fines Clause was incorporated as being applicable to the States in 2019. Timbs v. Indiana, 586 U.S. ___, 139 S.Ct. 682 (2019).
Thank you for that correction.
(Although it does nothing to alter the argument.)
So you believe the 2A was drafted specifically to protect the RKBA for citizens in DC and federal territories?? That doesn’t strike you as odd?!?
It strikes me that your determination to say stupid things is quite remarkable. Exactly no one opposed to infringement on the right to bear arms has ever suggested that the Federal government's inability to infringe was limited to the DC and federal territories.
Ipso facto, the states were free to infringe the individual right set forth in the 2A.
Just as the right to free speech, assembly, jury trials, protection from unreasonable searches etc only restrained the federal government but virtually all such rights have since been incorporated onto inferior governments via the vehicle (rightfully or wrongfully) of the 14th Amendment (which, of course, would take precedence over anything in the Constitution which preceded it).
There is nothing, for example, in the 14th Amendment that says "Except Due Process or Equal Protection related to the Second Amendment" - not even in its penumbras. As well, there is nothing distinct about the rights protected by the Second Amendment vs. the other rights protected in the BoR.
I can't figure out what you are arguing. Is it your position that none of the BoR should have been incorporated? If so that would leave Alabama free to establish a state religion and force everyone in the state to show up at church every Sunday morning and California could ban any Republican from speaking in public or require that the press in California could only publish what the Governor had approved. It's an interesting argument, but it seems like an odd place to be arguing it.
You are playing dumb—why draft the 2A as an individual right when the states were free to infringe the right?? And why not construct the 1A as individual rights like the 2A?? Why include the word “Congress”?? And keep in mind I agree with Justice Thomas that the Establishment Clause should not be incorporated because it is a federalism provision and has nothing to do with individual rights.
it was drafted to protect from federal infringement.
I have always found it odd that all of the rights were protections of various characteristics of being for individuals and institutions. But the 2A protects objects. They could have protected much more important objects like food, or medicine but instead chose swords and muskets
It’s not odd in light of the importance in our founding mythology of the events of Lexington and Concord and the role the Founders were wishcasting for the militia to play.
Technically they were all incorporated against the states by ratification of the 14th amendment. It's just that the Supreme court of the time didn't LIKE the 14th amendment, so they deliberately misconstrued the 14th amendment to cancel that incorporation.
Selective incorporation was the process of the Court gradually and grudgingly undoing it's own prior malfeasance in a very warped manner.
“…so that means the 2A only applied to citizens in DC and federal territories…”
No, you moron. The 2A protected THE ENTIRE COUNTRY from infringement on the right to bear arms by the Federal government. The 14A extended that protection to block interference by other government entities as well.
Except the states could infringe the RKBA prior to the 14A.
Do you have a historical court case that demonstrates this?
If you don't have case law to demonstrate your point, your argument is moot.
Coulda', woulda', shoulda', is not the basis of law.
What relevance does that have? There's no debate that you're correct but why keep bringing up now rescinded law. Do you think slavery is also still legal in the US?
Each state was once free to permit slavery - and some did so. However the 13th Amendment ended that just as the 14th Amendment, as understood by the courts now, incorporated most of the BoR, including the Second Amendment, onto state governments.
You need to move your clock ahead about 150 years - it seems stuck.
The people. Which presumably included all citizens and permanent residents, but not temporary visitors.
False. You've been told repeatedly that it's false. You keep lying, you bizarre troll. It applied to people everywhere in the United States. That it only applied to the federal government was not a geographic restriction.
Your responses is so obvious, that the person who wrote that is either a moron or arguing in bad faith.
You can make the same argument about all of the Bill of Rights. Did the First Amendment right to Free Speech only apply in DC and the territories? The Fourth Amendment requirement of a warrant? The criminal procedure rights in the 5th and 6th Amendments?
Yes, it's an absurd argument.
No, because the 1A specifically mentions “Congress”.
Have you actually ever READ the Bill of Rights?
Most of them do not mention the word "Congress" yet it is clear that the rights in them were enacted only against the federal government. No one ever thought, as you do, that that meant that they applied only in DC and the territories. Rather it meant that the federal government, anywhere in the U.S., was constrained by them. If the federal government wanted to prosecute someone for a federal crime, it had to empanel a jury, and there was no double jeopardy, which are secured by the Sixth and Fifth Amendments.
But the federal government had institutions that operated within the states—you know, the Federal Marshals and US Attorneys and Federation Judiciary that are set forth in the body of the Constitution?? So the 5A is limiting the federal government’s behavior within the respective states. No individual right was originally conferred in the rest of the BoR as they were merely restraints on the federal government. Heller asserts the 2A is an anomaly in that it was an individual right from the beginning which means it either should never have been restricted to only applying to the federal government or it initially only applied to citizenship in DC and federal territories.
The alternative is that the word “state” in the 2A refers to the several states and the word “militia” refers to the state militias and then the 2A ends up like a federalism provision like all of the other BoR amendments…such a head scratcher. 😉
You have a cite for that?
Nunn v Georgia in 1840 specially cited the 2nd amendment for striking a Georgia law that restricted the right to carry. There was no Georgia constitutional provision for a RKBA so the state court applied the federal right.
The fact that there weren't more cases than that was twofold, the right of the people to keep and bear arms was generally respected by the states, and the right was in most state constitutions so the federal right didn't need to be applied to reach the result.
It wasn't until reconstruction that local and state governments started systematically infringing on the right to bear arms, among many other rights that made the 14th necessary.
You have it backwards. The question is not who holds the right - the question is who the amendment constrained.
The right articulated in the 2nd Amendment was always an individual right even before passage of the 14th Amendment. It was a right held by all people in the US.
The question you talking around is who was constrained by the Amendment. Prior to the passage of the 14th, the 2nd Amendment constrained only the federal government. So the feds couldn't definitely couldn't infringe on rights in DC and the federal territories but they also couldn't attempt to assert federal supremacy by passing laws that would apply within the states.
At the same time but not relevant to the federal constitution, the various states were expected to obey their own state constitutions, most of which had their own version of the right to keep and bear arms. Only with the passage of the 14th Amendment are the requirements of the federal Bill of Rights "incorporated" against the states.
So it wasn’t an individual right then because it could be constrained by state governments?? The 1A specifically states “Congress”. Wait a second, the 2A specifically states “militia” which was a state institution…so maybe that is amendment’s qualifier just like “Congress” in the 1A?? Such a head scratcher. 😉
Ah, you're just trolling. Silly me for assuming that you were asking a serious question.
Lol, you must not understand the rationale Scalia set forth in Heller—“state” refers to country and “militia” refers to the unorganized militia and not the militias organized by the states. So according to Heller the 2A was drafted as an individual right but the right could be restricted by the states which means it wasn’t a right at all.
You mean the 10 or so deep blue anti-gun states? We'll just keep dragging you to court. You have to pay our legal fees anyways so we always get reimbursed for the cost to put it towards your next law.
"Point being, there’s an awful lot of restrictions you can place on constitutional rights, ain’t that right bubba?"
Imagine thinking there is a constitutional right to abortion. I can read you the Second Amendment, though.
“shall not be infringed”
Also says "well regulated" not "unregulated"
It appears NY and NJ are applying some regulations. Ah textualism...ain't it a bitch
Well-regulated what? And what shall not be infringed?
If only "well regulated" actually meant what you think it means in 1791, sure. Obviously, it didn't. You would know that had you bothered to read the court decisions dissecting every single word of the amendment in its historical context.
"It says "A well regulated militia being necessary....", not "only insofar as it contributes to a well-regulated militia..." , as you know perfectly well, gaslighter.
That's thick enough that the blood might not soak all the way through it!
Carry on, clingers. So long as better Americans permit.
The ‘betters’ here being the ones with the firearms, Mr target practice.
Reminds me of this Rittenhause-era classic:
https://ifunny.co/picture/hit-that-guy-with-your-skateboard-and-take-his-rifle-k9T19QXx7
Again you talk of blood, Artie. Where were you when the Feds murdered Vicki Weaver?
"this legislation is aimed primarily—not at those who unlawfully possess firearms—but at law-abiding, responsible citizens"
Well, duh. It's a gun control law. That's the POINT of gun control laws, after all.
"Although the State failed to provide any precedents for the endorser requirement in general, the Court conducted its own research and found sufficient precedents in some historic laws requiring endorsements for arms possession by certain disfavored groups–namely slaves, religious minorities (occasionally), and disloyal persons in wartime."
IOW, requiring endorsements for arms possession by groups the government was intent on infringing the rights of.
Basically, this court was cool with infringing the right pretty heavily, but the state wanted to go further than the court could stomach, and that took some doing.
In 1995 then governor Bush signed concealed carry legislation pushed by a woman that involved in an active shooter situation…have mass shootings gotten more frequent or less since 1995??
I know reporting on them has gotten more frequent, which isn't remotely the same thing.
Your warrant is doing alot of heavy lifting. Mind showing your work?
If you can't stand the right to arms, why don't you just leave the US?
I would rather stay here and help get it overturned.
When do you expect three-quarters of the states might do so?
Are you expecting some medical breakthrough that will extend your lifespan to hundreds of years? That's your most realistic chance as the collapse of the US is about the only way that the crisply enumerated right you deny so vehemently will be effectively expunged. Of course that expungement will include all the other enumerated rights such as free speech, free press, assembly, religion, protection from compelled self incrimination, protection from cruel and unusual punishment, protection from unreasonable searches, and prohibition of quartering of soldiers in homes w/o consent of the owner (admittedly, the last one hasn't been incorporated yet so the National Guard can just camp out in your living room w/o your consent whenever they want w/o violating the US Constitution).
I want it returned to the states exactly like Republicans wanted abortion returned to the states.
False equivalence. The 14th Amendment says "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States", and the right to abort isn't one of those, while the right to bear arms is.
Abortion was returned to the states because there wasn't any language at all concerning it in the Constitution.
By contrast, the 2nd amendment actually does exist.
I know you'd rather we all pretended that it didn't, but why would you expect us to humor that demand?
2A is a federalism provision that resists incorporation…that said I believe Americans have some RKBA related to privacy and Castle Doctrine and tradition.
Abortion was returned to the states because there wasn’t any language at all concerning it in the Constitution.
Like Robert Bork, you and Gandydancer would like to pretend that the Ninth Amendment doesn't exist.
How does the Glucksberg principle apply to claims that abortion is a fundamental right?
Glucksberg seems to have relied on historical analysis in a way similar to Dobbs. Disagreement over the importance of history and tradition aside, at least those cases acknowledge a need to evaluate whether the right exists, even if not enumerated by the Constitution. The conservative majorities in those cases did not simply wave the claim away because the Constitution doesn't mention assisted suicide or abortion. They explained why (in their opinion) those claimed rights were not fundamental and thus the laws restricting those actions don't need to meet strict scrutiny.
Not only is Brett wrong to argue that abortion is a matter for the states because it isn't mentioned in the Constitution, he is wrong about that being the reasoning in Dobbs.
Has ass-to-mouth porn gotten more popular since 1995?
That may well be the most intelligent thing you've ever said.
No doubt about it!
As in the years after Brown v. Board of Education, some state legislatures under the sway of anti-civil rights lobbies have engaged in massive resistance to Bruen.
This is obscene.
It seems relevant to mention that plenty of the "civil rights" fans who are gun absolutists are also our society's vestigial racists, nonsense-spouting gay-bashers, chanting antisemites, old-timey misogynists, knuckle-dragging immigrant-haters, obsolete Islamophobes, etc.
These clingers should enjoy anything they can while they still can. Until replacement. By their betters.
Uh huh. You sound like you're upset you can't suppress an enumerated right. Cry harder Arthur.
Open wider, clinger. Your betters are not nearly done arranging even more progress against the wishes, efforts, and whining of bigoted, superstitious, uneducated, rural culture war losers. Your stale, ugly right-wing thinking — gun nuttery in particular — is no problem replacement will not solve.
Keep fantasizing, loser. Your autistic postings here make it clear that a fantasy life is the only life you'll ever have.
You seem to have difficulty identifying the on-the-spectrum contingent at this blog.
Obscene because you are actively attacking a civil right. Your type will be remembered as the group that actively sought to suppress the right to keep and bear arms.
We'll stop you of course, but you'll kick and scream the entire time.
"This is obscene."
LOL!
Yes it's obscene, same as it was in the 50's.
I hope you aren't on the anti-civil rights side.
Brenard11, the analogy fits. The People's Duma and People's Commissar have a history of suppressing rights they do not agree with. To it, the People's Republic was in the vanguard of states that gleefully stripped us of our liberties during the covid-19 pandemic, and the People's Health Commissar should roast in hell for killing thousands of elderly nursing home patients with the mendacious decision to put covid-19+ patients in nursing homes.
XY,
No, actually. The analogy is terrible.
To compare the NY restrictions on gun owners that Bruen invalidated to what Blacks suffered under Jim Crow is obscene, not to mention hopelessly stupid.
Pretending they are the same because both have to do with civil rights is completely fucking insane. Kopel is a gun-besotted fool.
The sort of NY restrictions on gun owners the Bruen invalidated ARE part of what blacks suffered under Jim Crow. Literally, part of Jim Crow was gun control, to keep blacks defenseless.
And, again, the supposed obscenity is coming entirely from your personal animus towards this particular right.
That’s the autism talking again, Mr. Bellmore.
The sort of NY restrictions on gun owners the Bruen invalidated ARE part of what blacks suffered under Jim Crow. Literally, part of Jim Crow was gun control, to keep blacks defenseless.
It was a tiny fraction of that, and of other types of discrimination. There simply is no comparison. You often complain about wildly exaggerated criticisms coming from the left. Well, this is a wildly exaggerated criticism.
No, it was not a tiny fraction. It was the necessary first step. Blacks in the Jim Crow era who armed themselves and their communities were generally safe from the worst depredations and abuses. Disarmament removed their ability to protect themselves and made all the other abuses much, much worse.
Yes, what New Jersey did was obscene.
What's truly obscene?
The fact that it's the same party, and many of the same people, that opposed Brown driving the opposition to Heller/McDonald/Bruen.
The party of the Klan, Jim Crow and "Separate but Equal" for more gun control. For the same reason too, to retain and expand their power.
I hope you scraped that "Wallace for President" sticker off your bumper before posting.
The fact that it’s the same party, and many of the same people, that opposed Brown driving the opposition to Heller/McDonald/Bruen.
This is absolutely absurd retread of "But it was the Democrats that were the racists!" nonsense. Jim Crow wasn't about Democrat vs. Republican, it was about racist southerners that couldn't stand that their ancestors lost the Civil War and then they were supposed to treat Black people equally. As if! Democrats in other parts of the country allied with them on essentially everything else than race for several decades. But even Republicans stopped caring much about equality for Blacks as other priorities took over. The Civil Rights movement started getting somewhere in the 40's and 50's once both Democrats and Republicans outside of the South started doing something about segregation. (Truman, a Missouri Democrat, btw, desegregated the military in 1948 while running for re-election, even.)
Look at the roll call vote for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and you find that none of the few Republicans in former Confederate states voted for it (7 Rep and 1 Senator), whereas a few Democrats did. Outside of the old Confederacy, 7 Democrats in the House voted against it and no Senators. But 28 Republican Representatives and 5 Senators voted against it in those non-Confederate states. (Admittedly, some that opposed it, like Barry Goldwater (R-AZ), probably had sincere beliefs that the federal government shouldn't have gotten involved, rather than them being against equality.)
Racism in the Jim Crow era was about Lost Cause bullshit and, well, racism. It wasn't about party. Also note what happened to the Democratic Party's hold over the South in the following decades once the national party started seriously standing for equal rights.
I agree. It is obscene to equate gun control advocates with segregationists. People that hope to find a way to reduce the death and destruction of lives caused by gun violence are in no way, shape, or form like racists that didn't want Black people to have equal rights and economic opportunity.
Kopel and others on this thread can keep telling themselves that the "gun grabbers" really want to control people and taking guns away from law-abiding citizens is the first step to that. But they are really just making themselves look like fanatical conspiracy theorists that refuse to acknowledge that wanting to limit access to deadly weapons is a reasonable response to the horror of murdered children. If they have reasoned arguments on how such events and the death that comes with it can be reduced without limiting access to guns, I would think that the rational people on the other side could be persuaded. Then you would actually be able to tell the difference between them and the ones just looking to disarm the sheep. If they don't have any such arguments, then they are saying that all of this blood and death is simply the price to pay for their right to own whatever guns they want.
I understand that the rank-and-file gun control advocates fear the street thug and the gangbanger.
https://archive.md/mgil3
If by "the street thug and the gangbanger", you mean any young Black male, then the link you provided does not support that. In that place and time, being afraid of gang violence was perfectly rational, regardless of the race of the thugs and gangbangers. I would agree that such fear did not justify warrantless searches of homes, but I do not see the connection to racism you seem to see.
The rejection in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen, 597 U.S. ___, 142 S.Ct. 2111 (2022), of the tiers of scrutiny analysis applied by most courts in the wake of Heller illustrates the accuracy of Justice Robert Jackson's observation about the Supreme Court: "We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443, 540 (1953) (concurring in judgment).
There is nothing wrong with the current Supreme Court that enlargement will not fix.
Don't get your way so pack it huh? You think that will go unanswered?
Enlargement will be effected in scrupulous compliance with longstanding law and in congruence with ample precedent and tradition. Don’t like those rules? Get competitive in the culture war and at the modern American marketplace of ideas . . . Or find another country, clinger.
Arthur, I think Sandra (OBL) needs to remind you of a post you personally made ~2.33 years ago about SCOTUS enlargement. You have been making that prediction for a while now.
When do you cross the line from 'visionary' to 'false prophet'?
When I succumb to adult-onset superstition.
Have you managed to resist that level of gullibility and delusion?
I don't think Bruen's history-and-tradition test is wise or workable, but the problem was that lower courts in the wake of Heller were refusing to apply traditional tiers of scrutiny, and were just employing the rational basis test even though they were evaluating a fundamental right. And of course "preventing people from being shot" is a compelling interest, so courts were upholding every bad faith gun regulation they were encountering.
If courts had honestly applied Heller, Bruen wouldn't have been necessary.
Absolutely true.
But let's be clear about what the test is, Bruen "demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment’s text, as informed by history".
I don't think a history and tradition test is workable either, but if you start with a plain reading of the text and you clear up any fuzzy edges by consulting the history of applying the text near the founding, then it's much more workable.
If the history and tradition test is not workable, then what is?
The biggest problems with this test, as I see it, are that,
1) The main period you're looking at, between ratification of the 2nd amendment and the 14th amendment, is a period when the 2nd amendment did NOT apply to the states. And almost all the laws you'll be looking at are state laws. So it's hardly a good guide to what people thought the 2nd amendment means! You should actually be looking at the language of state level 2nd amendment analogs for this period, as the states might actually have had to comply with those.
2) After the 14th amendment was ratified, the 2nd amendment was held to apply to the states for only a very short while, before the Supreme court deliberately spiked the 14th amendment for generations. And about half the country was actively TRYING to violate the rights of a significant fraction of their population.
You really need to take these things into account. You can see the court above NOT taking that last point into account, using as evidence of history and tradition laws that were intended to violate rights.
You overlook another problem with the whole history and tradition test applied more broadly.
All that history and tradition was created at a time when political power was largely limited to white males.
So freaking what? We establish the scope of the right by reference to the people who got to enjoy it, and then let everybody enjoy it.
I mean, how complicated is that? Equalize rights UP, not down!
So freaking what?
Well, I was thinking of the 5th Circuit domestic violence case, where the court said there was no history or tradition of disarming perpetrators.
Wonder why?
Well, because there wasn't much of a history of disarming perpetrators, period, until recently. You were either in jail, or walking around free. Not some stupid halfway state.
And, granted, because domestic violence was viewed as more of a misdemeanor than felony.
But the point remains: Equalize rights up, not DOWN.
“Political power was largely limited to white males”
So…..does that invalidate the entire bill of rights or just the ones you don’t like?
Are all amendments before 1920 invalid? The 16th was approved in 1913. Can I quit paying income taxes?
And? White males seemed to believe they needed Constitutional rights to protect them against the Government. They even added 10 amendments to the Constitution to do so.
Nowadays, those same rights extend to people of all races and to both genders. For instance, a black mother who was robbed and obtained a gun license in one state should be allowed to carry in another state to protect herself.
https://www.nj.com/atlantic/2014/08/philadelphia_mom_who_legally_purchased_gun_in_pa_arrested_in_new_jersey_faces_3_years_in_prison.html
(PS, she was pardoned by then Gov. Christie.)
She should never have been prosecuted. Meanwhile NJ cities are full of felons in possession.
They did not even accuse her of being a straw purchaser.
You overlook another problem with the whole history and tradition test applied more broadly.
All that history and tradition was created at a time when political power was largely limited to white males.
Every time I think you've already said the dumbest thing you're ever going to say...you come along and prove me wrong.
The problem is that the test is impossible to apply and/or infinitely malleable. There are many modern restrictions that simply have no good historical analogues one way or the other, and even when one can find analogues — how many is enough? How many jurisdictions had to have a similar law, and for how long, and when, to make something a traditional, and thus permissible, regulation?
State: We found 13 historical laws that were similar to this one we want to use.
Challenger: Well, 4 of those aren't really analogous; and 2 others weren't enacted until the 20th century so they're not traditional; and 3 others were only in effect for short periods of time, or only in a few states, or weren't enforced; and the other 4? Well, 4 laws aren't really enough to prove a tradition that justifies this law.
That's… something, but it's not litigating.
" There are many modern restrictions that simply have no good historical analogues one way or the other,"
That is the easiest case. Restrictions that have no good historical analogues simply aren't constitutional. Remember, the text facially prohibits ALL restrictions on the right, "shall not be infringed", the history and tradition test identifies exceptions that are presumed to override the text.
Without any basis for such an exception, you trivially arrive at the conclusion that the restriction is unconstitutional.
Yes, Brett: when one doesn't really understand a topic, it's often "easy" to solve all the problems with it.
Hostory and tradition apply in other contexts. See e.g., the historical excedptions to the vesting clause.
Nope.
How do expect it to be prevented? Is bigotry going to make a comeback that reverses the half-century tide of the culture war?
I feel like we’ve been over this several times, but it’s not going to happen unless Democrats control the presidency and sizeable majorities in both houses of Congress, which isn’t going to be any time soon—indeed, Republicans have a pretty good shot at taking all three next year, as long as Trump isn’t the nominee.
The Democrats in the FBI and the CIA have gotten away with interfering with our 2016 and 2020 presidential elections.
The Democrats in the Census have gotten away with a 10 year "oopsie" that stole five House seats from Red States and gave them to Blue States.
The Democrats in the White House are importing millions of illegals to further bias the next census.
In 20 years, we'll be a Democrat Utopia like Chicago but with the rampant income inequality of Democrat Utopia California with the wealth further concentrated in the Federal Class surrounding DC like it is now.
You previously talked about conservatives being targeted and killed by the government.
Nice to see you optimistic for once!
What do you think the punishment should be for those civil servants at the FBI and CIA who interfered with our elections?
Next, what do you think their punishment will actually be?
Hundreds of thousands of people were disenfranchised by the Census "mistake", how should their rights be restored?
Now, what do you think will actually happen to return rightful representation to those citizens?
Any majorities could suffice. Clingers seem destined to learn that the hard way.
Yes, obviously a simple majority of people in both houses who support enlarging the court would be enough to pass a bill that did so. But since only a subset of Democrats do want to do it, as a practical matter they will need a very large majority (larger than they're likely to have in either house any time soon, much less both) if they want to make it happen.
I wish it were that simple, we’d be a lot safer against Court packing if it was.
Remember, Congressional votes are taken as a fraction of those voting, not the entire body. And a quorum to do business is just over half the membership.
So, in the theoretical limit, you can pass something out of Congress with 26 votes in the Senate and 110 Representatives.
Now, of course, coordinating things so that only the right 26 Senators and 110 Representatives were present would be impossible as a practical matter, but arranging for a vote to be held when only, say, 80% of the members are present, and passage just requires 41 Senators and 175 Representatives? That’s a lot easier to pull off, if the same party controls both chambers, or even if it’s just something both parties’ leadership happen to agree on.
The real obstacle to doing this isn’t logistical, it’s the understanding that legislative comity would be utterly dead from that moment on. So they haven’t wanted to set off that doomsday weapon yet.
But if they ever felt that strongly about it, yeah, all they’d actually need is a bare majority in both chambers.
Yes, that also isn’t going to happen.
Meanwhile in other gun-related news, a 12-year-old boy has been arrested in connection with the murder of a Sonic employee at a restaurant outside of Dallas. The boy allegedly shot the Sonic employee several times with an AR15.
Heller is turning out much like Dobbs: it's all very well on the abstract side, but actually living with it is onerous to the point of unsustainability.
I'm willing to bet now that some time before the end of this year, somewhere in USA, a single-digit-age child will shoot someone, like in the Abby Zwerner case, with premeditation and planning, but, unlike Abby Zwerner, the victim in this future case will actually die.
When this happens, all these clever grammatical and historical interpretations of the Second Amendment are gonna sound awfully hollow to the adults involved.
You think Bruen says that the bearing or purchase of rifles by 12 y/o is protected by the Constitution? You are oddly deluded, Lefty.
Self-aware conservatives don’t mention delusion (because of the childish superstition that afflicts conservatives). Silly fairy tales.
On the contrary, I mention delusion (and autistic obsession) whenever your 24/7 infestation of this site comes up.
How does your autism detector inform you concerning the Conspirators and plenty of their fans?
Not all of the Conspirators exhibit on-the-spectrum attributes.
The over-under is 3.5.
Point me to the 19th-century laws that specifically prohibited 12-year-olds from bearing arms.
Point me to the 19th-century laws that specifically prohibited marrying off a 12-year-old to a cousin against the child's will.
To assess the "tradition" part of that context, a quick trip to West Virginia, Kentucky, and Mississippi would suffice.
No, Gandydancer-who-likes-to-pretend-to-be-a-dumb-dumb-(or-maybe-isn't-pretending). I don't think Heller or Bruen or any gun-related jurisprudence explicitly protects a right of young children to have guns. The effect is indirect: the modern (mis)interpretation of the Second Amendment protects the gun industry so broadly that we cannot limit the sheer number of guns (including weapons of war like AR15s) lying around, and THAT makes it possible for young children to get their hands on them, even though they're officially not allowed to have them. Also, current (likely-transient) law and jurisprudence makes it impossible to hold gun-sellers responsible when children get their hands on guns and kill or harm people with them.
This is a collective problem now, not a matter of individual rights. There are so many guns, so many individuals exercising their individual rights, that enforcing any restriction allowed by jurisprudence has become, in practical terms, impossible. The law against being a felon in possession of a firearm enjoys very broad support, right? But even the worst convicted felon can easily get one, because there are just so many of them.
Convicted felons can actually legally stop the police from rummaging through their stuff, because of the 4th Amendment.
You think Bruen says that the bearing or purchase of rifles by 12 y/o is protected by the Constitution? You are oddly deluded, Lefty.
The award for not understanding the issue goes to Gandydancer.
How does a 12 year old get an AR-15? He can't buy one at the store. So he has to get it from someone that does purchase it legally and then doesn't keep it secure from 12 year olds.
This is the gaping hole in the logic of your thinking. As long as there are so fucking many guns in people's hands with them so easy to get, there are going to be far more opportunities for guns to get into the hands of people that shouldn't have them. The cliche about only outlaws having guns if you outlaw guns is stupid for that reason. Outlaws can only get guns from people legally allowed to have them or from other outlaws that got them from someone legally allowed to have them, etc.
So the Crips and the Latin kings get their cocaine legally too?
Is there any other right out there that has to be abolished if anybody at all abuses it? Where the 10,000 who didn't just don't count?
Vincent Lane thought so.
https://archive.md/mgil3
Fuck you, tool.
People die, that’s a fact. Everything that is alive dies.
Your inability to deal with death grants you no right to disarm me. If people would educate children about firearms like “back in the day” when mandatory firearms classes were given in some schools, maybe, just maybe, some of this fucking ignorant shit that people are doing with firearms will stop. But if you’re on the side of ignorance, enjoy your body count.
Where the SC’s decisions concerning the 2A so obscure that the district courts ignore them and the states continue to pass laws that obviously contravene them?
No, obviously not. It's conscious, intentional violation. There are some laws the next Republican administration needs to force the DOJ to enforce:
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 - Conspiracy Against Rights:
"If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death."
and
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 - Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law:
"Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death."
In the meanwhile, though, there's this, and it doesn't require a DOJ that cares:
42 U.S. Code § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights
"Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia."
Note that it can even be applied to judges acting in their official capacity. I'd suggest that the Supreme court remind some of the more rebellious lower courts of this law, and announce to the public at large that they should start using it.
How do you prosecute and entire People's Duma and the People's Commissar (NJ Legislature, Governor) under section 241, 242?
Has that ever happened in American history? Ever? I cannot think of a single instance in our history when an entire state legislature was prosecuted. I am not sure that was done even during the civil war.
It's my understanding that this law has not been considered to apply to the actual legislators, but only to any state officials who try to enforce statutes violating civil rights.
If you believed half of your bullshit, you’d have moved to Alabama, Idaho, West Virginia, or a similar deplorable backwater by now.
Language! Don't say "deplorable backwater"! We don't use those words in polite society. Say "third-world shit-hole".
Be more specific with examples of "third world shit-holes" like;
San Francisco, Portland St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago,,,,,,,
My longtime Usenet ally, Christopher Charles Morton, escaped Chicago.
This has left the Court to do what the Legislature had said it had done, but clearly did not.
Such is the People's Duma of NJ.
Which attribute of New Jersey offends you most?
The education (number and quality of reason-based schools, relative lack of homeschoolers and fourth-tier, nonsense-based schools)?
The lack of old-timey religion in New Jersey government?
The diminution of racism as New Jersey modernized? Picking the wrong side in the Civil War?
Better treatment of gays? Too many Jews? Some Muslims?
Women permitted to buy property and sign contracts?
What, precisely, causes you to disdain modern America and New Jersey in particular? And why haven’t you moved to a less advanced, less inclusive, less educated, less diverse state?
Taxes
Crime
Corruption
Incompetence
So… why don’t you move somewhere else?
This all began with the 1934 National Firearms Act. Back then the thinking was - "A little gun control couldn't hurt." - and here is where it has brought us today.
This nonsense is only going to end one of two ways: either the US Supreme Court finally rules all gun control laws are unconstitutional, or a second Civil War. I hope for the former, but fear it will be the latter.
ScienceABC123 — Nah. There are ways to unravel this mess. But getting out of it will take almost as long as it took to get into it. Any attempt to overturn the status quo suddenly is not a good idea, not even if the SCOTUS ordered it.
Pretty obviously, letting the civilian arms race continue to escalate is also not a good idea. The first objective ought to be just to stop the escalation. Even that will have to wait for either a transformed SCOTUS, or events so shocking they wake up a few right wingers on the existing SCOTUS.
Meantime, serious dangers for the public life of the nation are on the increase. The wraps are off the right wing gun agenda. Self-defense remains a salient (and stupidly exaggerated) concern. But a tendency to insist also on a constitutional power to do armed political intimidation, vigilantism, and insurrection will have to be confronted by at least the blue states and the federal courts. That cannot happen too soon.
Blue states have in many instances used gun control polices to achieve better gun safety records than elsewhere. Aggressive court-ordered policies to dismantle that, and instead inflict deep-south-style gun violence on states like Massachusetts would not go down without provoking calls for more radical solutions, including secession. A more Dobbs-like replacement for Bruen might be a way to relieve that danger, while not too much inflaming the gun nuts.
"But getting out of it will take almost as long as it took to get into it."
I agree, but not because it's a bad idea for the Supreme court to suddenly just start enforcing a clause of the Constitution they'd been ignoring. Because they're just not up for doing that.
What we're looking at is a somewhat gradual process where the Court, which can barely credit that our former liberties are actually feasible, rolls back a layer of gun control, then observes the results. Then, things being fine, they'll find the courage to roll back another layer.
Rinse and repeat, it will take nearly as long to roll this crap back as it did to accumulate. And all the while the opposition will be screaming about blood in the streets and all sorts of other nonsense.
I would caution my allies that we're not guaranteed to have the time needed for this process, because the left-wing takeover of the law schools is close to complete, and in about 10-15 years it's going to start getting really hard to find judicial candidates who aren't thoroughly indoctrinated left-wingers, or beaten down by the same. 5-10 years after that, where are you going to find conservative Supreme court candidates?
We only have a narrow window here to pry loose the left's death grip on the law schools, before the bolus of indoctrinated jurists going through the system makes it a practical impossibility to continue our gains, or even hold onto them.
Which is why, screw caution, we need to go balls to the wall on regaining our liberties, while fighting to reclaim academia, too.
Why are America's strongest schools operated and populated by the liberal-libertarian mainstream, while schools that hire and flatter right-wingers are mostly low-quality institutions?
Do you content our best schools should emulate our shittiest schools by hiring more conservative administrators and professors while admitting more fledgling clingers?
Singapore does not bother with gertting permission from some judge when they want to look for evidence for a crime.
Here in America, there is a Bill of Rights.
https://archive.md/mgil3
a second Civil War
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're in rare form today. Get lucky last night and still feeling the afterglow?
The commenting platform here doesn't allow for memes and gifs, and ScienceABC123's wet dream about another civil war really did call for something along those lines.
Yup, it would be nice if they allowed directly displaying images, rather than just linking to them remotely. OTOH, when I consider how some of the people here would likely utilize such a feature, I can understand why it isn't implemented.
The keyboard warriors around the internet wishing for a second civil war are just blowhards who have no comprehension about what it would do to the quality of life for themselves and their families.
I have no desire to have to live through a civil war; Nobody wins one of those, there is only losing less than the other guy. And I don't see us coming out the other side a free society even if my side prevailed, because of what would be necessary to keep the other side from starting the same shit up again all over again.
Noscitur a sociis...
Keep me out of this!
I know....civil war would be terrible beyond anyone's imagination. Much less moral restraint coupled with greater lethality is a horrible recipe.
As in the years after Brown v. Board of Education, some state legislatures under the sway of anti-civil rights lobbies have engaged in massive resistance to Bruen.
Wow... After what feels like decades of Josh Blackman blogging on the VC I thought I wasn't so easily surprised anymore, but this reaches new heights for stupidity and inappropriateness.
No, that's perfectly accurate. The way these laws that grossly violate the 2nd amendment were passed in a hurry after Bruen, how else would you describe it except as open rebellion?
That you might not LIKE the right in question is hardly relevant.
As I said above, it's an obscene comparison.
"You can't carry a concealed weapon without a good reason."
"Why, that's just like Jim Crow."
Fuck off.
No, it's NOT an obscene comparison. You're getting the supposed obscenity entirely from your dislike of the right being restored. It is totally dependent on your personal animus.
It's not "just like" Jim Crow, by the way. It IS Jim Crow. Where do you think all these stupid gun laws originally came from, anyway?
Yes, centuries of death and oppression of black people is almost the same thing as the correct interpretation of the constitutional provision that was mostly put there to make it easier for white people to oppress black people.
Yes, denying the right to the means of self defense was part of enabling the death and oppression, and never mind your historical revisionism about why the right was guaranteed.
The US has a long history of "self defense" against non-white people...
Not unlike the English, French, Spaniards, Portuguese in the Americas and around the world?
Just following the lead of our betters?
We all cleaned up our acts, but the US still seems to be in a state of permanent low-level civil war.
After the riots that started at Trump's inauguration, and basically every year he was in office, I think it's more of a mid-level civil war.
I suppose it's not unprecedented; The Democrats had their paramilitary wing in the KKK back during Jim Crow, now they've got the Antifa. The tactics are virtually identical, except for the Klan wearing white and the Antifa wearing black, and exploiting the internet to organize things more opaquely.
We're a nation drifting towards being a police state, sadly, and such transitions are hardly peaceful. Though I think we've still got time to pull back from the brink, we let too many elements of such a state be implemented, and it's not going to be easy or a sure thing.
Another utterly shit analogy. Antifa is neither the KKK nor a wing of the Democratic Party. And we're not in a civil war.
You're a very melodramatic person who wishes he were in a political thriller, and who seems to really envy the righteousness of the Civil Rights Movement.
You're never going to be there, because losing votes for the shitty policies you want does not mean you are oppressed.
"Another utterly shit analogy. Antifa is neither the KKK nor a wing of the Democratic Party. And we’re not in a civil war."
Denial isn't an argument. Antifa is enabled by the Democratic party, they only commit their violence where they are protected from legal retaliation by local governments, all of which are run by Democrats.
The KKK was the same way.
They wear identical clothing and masks so that the crimes particular members commit can't be prosecuted on account of not being able to identify the perpetrator.
The KKK was the same way.
When they're arrested, who funds their bail? Democratic politicians, that's who.
You can deny it all you want, but Antifa has "Democratic party" written all over it. You scarcely even try for more than a pro-forma disassociation.
You can say all sorts of bullshit you don't back up. That doesn't mean when I call you on it I'm in denial, it means you're spouting bullshit.
Antifa are not Democrats. They mostly hate the Democratic Party as much as the GOP. That's how leftists work. Not that your omni-conspiracy has room for such nuance.
Antifa doesn't have a uniform; they're angry twitter aholes, not an organized institution.
Antifa is not protected by the local government. Though I'm sure any Antifa arrested is just to further the conspiracy.
This comment of yours demonstrates how much you just create in your head and then think is true. That you could imagine any kinda nonsense and choose to imagine there's a civil war against you says a lot about your inner workings, but little about the reality you refuse to actually interface with.
"Antifa are not Democrats. They mostly hate the Democratic Party as much as the GOP."
Right, and that's why Democrats are in such a hurry to pay their bail and drop all charges against them. Because they hate you just as much as they do us.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-biden-bail/biden-staff-donate-to-group-that-pays-bail-in-riot-torn-minneapolis-idUSKBN2360SZ
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/portland-protest-cases-dismissed-feds/283-002f01d2-3217-4b12-8725-3fda2cad119f
Note, the local prosecutor refused to go after Antifa who'd attacked a federal courthouse and federal officers, so the Trump DOJ picked up the ball.
Then the Biden DOJ spiked it back down again.
Again, denial isn't an argument, even if it is your favorite substitute for one.
Democrats are in such a hurry to pay their bail
Random Biden campaign staffers sends money to a bail fund? Look at how weak that is to prove 'Antifa is an arm of the Democratic Party', Brett. Wow.
Taking a dismissed case as proof of a Democratic conspiracy to support Antifa...does that mean I get to take any J06 case that's dismissed or deferred indefinitely and call it a conspiracy? No. That would be moronic.
Note, the local prosecutor refused to go after Antifa who’d attacked a federal courthouse and federal officers, so the Trump DOJ picked up the ball.
Note, you make shit up; I can't trust that's true, coming from you.
Quit this tin-foil stuff.
"Note, you make shit up; I can’t trust that’s true, coming from you."
Links to local news reports, why do I even bother including them?
Feds quietly dismiss dozens of Portland protest cases
"Federal prosecutors rarely handle protest cases. But when Multnomah County District Attorney Mike Schmidt passed on most protest cases saying he was reserving resources for the most serious crimes, the feds stepped in. Then-Attorney General William Barr reportedly instructed federal prosecutors to aggressively pursue protesters deemed violent or destructive."
IOW, the local prosecutor dropped the ball, and the Trump DOJ picked it up.
"Some of the most serious charges dropped include four defendants charged with assaulting a federal officer, which is a felony. More than half of the dropped charges were "dismissed with prejudice," which several former federal prosecutors described as extremely rare. “Dismissed with prejudice” means the case can’t be brought back to court."
Which is what I meant by the Biden administration not just dropping the ball, but spiking it. They went out of their way to make sure the decision to let these guys walk was irreversible.
In case your memory fails, this was the courthouse Antifa were nightly trying to set on fire with people inside.
Portland protesters barricade courthouse with federal officers inside, then try to set it on fire
The Federal government dismisses lots of cases.
Cases against protesters at all levels are often dismissed, because it's hard to get around the 1A as you make your case.
You know this!
Barr grandstanding does not prove anything about the choices the federal government made.
And, of course, you're conflating Portland protesters with Antifa, with no support they are the same.
Because you'll fudge the facts when you want to believe.
And, finally, I will note that the charges the feds dropped in Portland were largely against nonviolent protesters. You jump from that to this example of violence.
Because you connect things that are not connected to get you where you want to go.
Antifa->Portland protesters->Nonviolent protestors' charges dropped->violent protests.
All of these connections are unsupported. All of them are assumed by you with zero critical analysis. Just appeal to your own incredulity.
There is no Civil War going on. There is no new KKK. The Democrats do not have a paramilitary arm.
You're not living that life. Get used to it or keep going down your conspiracy rabbit hole and eventually joing QAnon - they have the oppression/righteousness narrative you want. I hear it's very pure, and reality-free.
I can understand why you want to deny that the Antifa are the Democratic party's goon squad. Goon squads lose half their utility if you have to admit they're yours.
Engage with the substance of my argument. Claiming I'm biased and so you don't need to listen is fallacious.
re: "We all cleaned up our acts"
Bullshit. I've lived in Europe. Discrimination is far more overt than in the US - and also simply accepted. Discrimination still occurs in the US and gets a lot more press but it gets that press in large part because it is the exception, no longer the rule.
Brett, while I believe that there is an individual right to self defense, the level of burden is fundamentally different in degree and kind.
You won't win anyone over making such a comparison, though I suppose you will feel like you're a virtuous underdog. But you're not the only person in the room.
The wish to be oppressed and thus righteous is a vice, if you want to actually advocate for what you support versus just burnishing your self-image.
I don't hope to win YOU over, Sarcastr0. You're a lost cause.
You, bernard, and martinned aren't understanding the analogy. It's not 'banning bump stocks is just like chattel slavery in every respect!'.
When I entered (public) high school they had mandatory 5 day a week chapel, where the admins selected ministers to give sermons. This was many years after the SC had said that was a no-no. I printed off the relevant SC decision and gave it to the principal. That started a four year process of them saying, in turn:
-we're not a public school because 1% of our budget comes from an endowment (they were the only public high school in the city)
-it's OK if we pick a student committee to choose ministers, instead of the admins picking
and on and on; they came up with a half dozen similar dodges over the years. They weren't the first; other school districts had tried all the same dodges years earlier. Each time I'd find the relevant case that said the latest dodge wasn't kosher and give them a copy.
That's 'massive resistance' - instead of a good faith attempt to comply with a decision you don't like, you come up with transparently silly objections. When you get told it's not OK to use rubber hoses to beat confessions out of suspects, switching to bamboo splints under the fingernails isn't good faith attempt to comply.
That is exactly what the Jim Crow south did for years (I'll repeat my plug for 'The Strange Career of Jim Crow'!), it is what my high school (and others) did about school prayer, and it is what a number of states have done since Heller. Listening to sermons, most of which were actually interesting, wasn't the same as getting sold down the river either, but the pattern of ignoring the law because the administration didn't like it was the same, whether it is school sermons or some dodge arguing you didn't have to integrate the city pool.
Y'all are all capable of thinking nuanced enough thinking to see the comparison without spinning up the outrage machine.
No, they actually do understand what we're saying. They just dislike this particular right too much to acknowledge what is going on. From their perspective thinking the right is a bad idea settles the matter, and never mind what the Constitution might say about it. It's only a question of how to prevail.
They're willing to use reason when it's in their favor, but when it's against them they don't give up, they fall back on ridicule.
Not all violations of the Constitution are morally the same as Jim Crow. If that's something that needs explaining any further, I really don't know how to help you.
No, I believe there is a right. Quit with your assuming bad faith shit.
I just think that there is a realm beyond that of the pure philosophical binary where all is within rights or tyranny with no practical impact taken into account.
Or where Abrasoka goes - pure personal intent zero impact. Not a good parallel.
It’s a realm called reality. No single philosophy reigns there.
You live there at least a little above when you noted that this is merely a subset of Jim Crow’s civil rights violations. That means these are not equal things you are comparing.
Don’t wear that cloak. It’s not yours, even if you really like how it looks.
There is something of the mythic in civil rights. Maybe guns will get there; but not yet. For now you are just wearing someone else’s cloak.
Give it up, Sarcastr0. You're just resorting to the old dodge of gun controllers: Admitting there's a constitutional right, but defining it so narrowly that it hardly matters.
Otherwise you'd scarcely object to this ruling.
He's not referred to as GaslightO around here for nothing.
Where have I even spoken to defining the right, Brett?
I think your analogy is both wrong and impolitic. I have explained why, even using some of your own words.
I do not anticipate you to be a very receptive audience, but I think that there's plenty of middle ground between 'I don't believe there is a right' and 'don't compare it to Jim Crow.'
If you don't think there is any middle there, that seems a narrowness in your own definitions.
Sarcastro, exactly why do you find this ruling objectionable, if you do support the right? How much of a right could you really support, and still think this ruling goes too far?
It's not like NY is treading carefully about the 2nd amendment, nibbling around the edges, after all. They're transparently attempting to make exercise of the right outright impossible, or as close to that as they can manage.
Sarcastro, exactly why do you find this ruling objectionable
If you note, I've said nothing about the finding.
The only thing I've talked about here is that I don't like that they invoke Brown v. Board. That's dumb. You're doubling down and making it dumber.
Like how someone can wish Roe had a better laid out jurisprudential foundation than it did, but not have an issue with the finding? You also have trouble with that concept, IIRC.
It’s not ‘banning bump stocks is just like chattel slavery in every respect!’.
Way to move the goalposts. The comparison is completely offensive, with or without that "every respect".
It is only offensive to people who find the right itself offensive.
It's only *not* offensive to people who find the occasional dead black person nothing to worry about.
It's not legal gun owners black or white who are piling up bodies of black people. See who is being murdered in any major US city.
@Bumble: Every US shooting starts with a gun that is manufactured and sold legally. As long as you're not willing to accept that, there's no way to resolve the ongoing violence in America.
@Martinned:
A gun is an inanimate object not capable of violence or anything else. Violence is the result of human actions. Make every gun disappear and violence would continue to exist (on Long Island, MS13 likes to use legally manufactured bats and machetes).
My point is that these efforts at gun control are aimed at otherwise law abiding citizens while existing laws penalizing the use of guns by those not allowed to possess them are ignored.
No; it's offensive to decent people. Similarly, I think Jim Crow was very bad — but comparing it to the Holocaust would be offensive.
Brett the telepath once again!
Jim Crow was dehumanizing in a broad spectrum way that is not the same as being denied a gun. Both are violations of rights, in my view, but one is a bigger deal. I think that without finding the right to have a gun to be offensive. Quit putting thoughts in my head.
There is something else going on, though, that is interesting to dig into, even if you're being an ass and telling me I am a liar and think the opposite of what I'm writing.
The history of civil rights has been woven into our founding myth. And indeed in the fabric of the narrative of human rights throughout world history.
The current incarnation of the 2A does not hold the same mythic significance to most, both because of its history, and because of its actual practical burden as compared to what blacks experienced under Jim Crow.
So the reason you and the OP are seeing this pushback is because that's how it's seen - you are comparing it being a pain in the ass to get the gun you want in certain states to the experience of being a black in the Jim Crow South, with all the fear and daily dehumanization and misery that entails, as well as the fabric of the American story it inhabits.
This sort of law is a piece of Jim Crow, only instead of NY only trying to violate the rights of an identifiable segment of the population, they want to violate the rights of the ENTIRE population. That's "broad spectrum", too, in its own way.
"The current incarnation of the 2A does not hold the same mythic significance to most, both because of its history, and because of its actual practical burden as compared to what blacks experienced under Jim Crow."
I'm certainly willing to believe that's your attitude, I'm puzzled by why you think it's a shared attitude.
This sort of law is a piece of Jim Crow
Then quit acting like it's the whole thing, or akin to seperate but equal even. And talking about Antifa like it's reigning terror like the KKK did.
Oh, it's a shared view. You're way outside of the mainstream comparing your struggle with blacks for civil rights. Even DMN notes that it's offensive, Brett.
Some do share your sense of drama. I read the gun threads. But not many outside of that rarified space are at that level.
The groups that talk about gun absolutism as "civil rights" are the groups that include our society's remaining racists, misogynists, antisemites, gay-bashers, etc. Those bigots also tend to find their way to the Volokh Conspiracy.
Absaroka, a difference you seem to ignore, and which Bellmore has ignored for sure, is that blue state advocacy and law making are not based on defiance of any law they acknowledge. NJ does not think the 2A bestowed much beyond a militia right, and maybe—far more controversially—a right of self defense.
What NJ sees from Bruen—and from pro-gun advocates pushing for gun rights expansions based on Bruen—goes far beyond that more-limited scope which blue states concede as legitimate. In that advocacy, NJ has the moral advantage that Bruen is indeed a horribly reasoned decision, actually decided and written with an eye toward partisan oppression.
Bruen was written in defiance of history, not in reliance on it. The atrocious cherry-picking and tortured gerrymandering of the historical arguments make the oppressive purpose plain. Forthright historical analysis does not begin with a blatant intent to find only evidence in support of a pre-selected preferred outcome.
Pretty much none of that applies to create an analogy with the massive resistance campaigns which followed Brown. Those extended to withdrawing from blacks even existing provisions for public education, as laws were passed to close public schools entirely in districts which integrated.
Pro-gun advocates scream all the time that something similar is intended for their rights, but there is no evidence it has ever happened. All the record shows is disagreement among factions about the extent of the 2A right. Nothing like its complete abolition has ever been attempted.
I concede there were some in the South who truly believed that the Brown decision targeted their way of life illegitimately. But they were deeply morally wrong about that. That southern assertion was a relic of a morally corrupt legacy used to justify Civil War—insistence on a right to a society built on black slavery as its organizing principle.
In the case of the Bruen comparison, the notion that New Jersey is deeply morally wrong to impose guns restrictions is in no way comparable. While not in any way attempting to abolish the militia right, or the core right of self defense, or to do any gun regulation which is not actually precedented in American history and tradition (despite the lies, avoidances and dismissals built into Bruen), NJ asserts a power to keep its citizens safe from guns, instead of to make them safe with guns. And they do not do it by eliminating existing gun rights, but instead by resisting forced expansions of those gun rights which most NJ citizens oppose as too dangerous. Whatever analogy Bellmore and others may see to Brown in that, there is no moral comparison in it at all.
Red state pro-gun advocates are furious about blue state resistance to gun rights expansions. They fear it. They fear it not because it reaches into their red states to deprive them of rights they already enjoy. That has not happened. What has happened is spreading realization in blue states that the pro-gun community does not want to content itself with historical and traditional rights. Gun advocates insist now on an ever-expanding empowerment for guns in public life. Those advocates are discontented with a militia right, plus a right to self defense. They find those insufficient. They want also to add a right of armed rebellion, a right to private vigilantism, and, most of all, a right to use guns as instruments of intimidation in politics. None of that is constitutional.
"Absaroka, a difference you seem to ignore, and which Bellmore has ignored for sure, is that blue state advocacy and law making are not based on defiance of any law they acknowledge. NJ does not think the 2A bestowed much beyond a militia right, and maybe—far more controversially—a right of self defense. "
Sure. And so what? Just like the Jim Crow states thought segregation was perfectly constitutional, and right-to-lifers thought banning abortion was OK while Roe was in force, yadda, yadda, yadda.
We don't all get to have a personal interpretation of the constitution, and only obey the supreme court decisions we agree with. Brett doesn't get to buy a newly made machine gun because he thinks Miller was wrong, blue states don't get to ban CCW because they think Bruen was wrong, and the southern states didn't get to have segregated schools because they thought Brown was wrong.
Way to ignore the entire argument, which dealt with every point you make. The attempted comparison is a moral assertion, masquerading as a cockamamie structural argument. Deal with the moral issues, or join the masquerade.
Which moral issues would they be?
"Absaroka, a difference you seem to ignore, and which Bellmore has ignored for sure, is that blue state advocacy and law making are not based on defiance of any law they acknowledge. NJ does not think the 2A bestowed much beyond a militia right, and maybe—far more controversially—a right of self defense. "
Reminds me of an essay today at Balkinization: Bad Faith Constitutionalism
"I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that a third category might be needed to encompass the range of constitutional crises that have emerged. A crisis of constitutional bad faith may occur when political actors refrain from repudiating the inherited constitutional system but nonetheless subvert it by only giving lip service to constitutional requirements."
This is what NJ is doing: They are deliberately giving the 2nd amendment a convenient and utterly implausible meaning in lieu of openly admitting they mean to violate it. And are doing so even after the Supreme court set them straight on what it means.
Bellmore, Bruen is an intellectual and moral abomination which set no one straight on anything. It may not be the worst Supreme Court decision in history, but only because its subject matter was not as momentous as some among the competitors. The reasoning and methods of argument qualify as contenders for the worst ever. As long as Bruen stands, it will call into question the legitimacy of the present SCOTUS majority.
Also, there will never be, whatever a corrupt Court may say, a 2A constitutional right to armed insurrection, nor a right to armed vigilantism, nor a right to use guns to intimidate people as they participate in politics. Nor will there ever be a right to carry guns onto private property without an owner's expressed permission to do so. Nothing in the 2A intended any of that. Nothing prevents advocacy to change the 2A right to include that stuff. But no claim that it already is included should be received by anyone except with resistance.
History will also note that the justice who wrote this execrable decision had a years-long history of taking bribes and lying about them. That by itself ought to caution you away from enthusiastic over-reliance on the decision.
Lathrop, You just have a problem with a Black man writing Bruen. He strayed from your plantation and he's refused to come back for over thirty years, it's okay to admit you're pissed about it.
You really hate the idea of civil rights and judicial review.
You even claimed that Congress's subpoena power was a sovereign power, immune from judicial review!
Sigh...the wall of text problem is recurring, lathrop.
Do you only read this blog on your phone?
Bernard, remember when you and your president thought the new Georgia voting laws were the New Jim Crow? The comparison made in the article is much less offensive than that and also more accurate.
But I guess only one side gets to be called bad names.
You sure you want to go comparing gun restrictions to voting restrictions?
Not sure you'll like how that comparison comes out, even assuming they are rights of equal weight.
They are of equal weight. Both are specifically protected in the constitution. I know you like to pick and choose what rights other people should and shouldn’t have, but I think everyone should have all of them. I’m sure to you that fairness and intellectual consistency are just more flaws that I have.
Can’t you simply admit that the Jim Crow bullshit was way overwrought?
You probably can’t, but the least you and Bernard and Martin can do is not get your tits in a flutter when someone makes a Jim Crow comparison. Sauce for the goose.
As I noted above, the idea that all rights are equal under analysis is how you end up comparing being a black man in the Jim Crow South with having a background check to buy a gun in NJ.
That's not intellectually consistent, that's being so intellectual you've blinded yourself to reality.
Rights are complicated things both legally and socially. Analogies are enticing, but should be deployed with care.
I don't agree with the analogy between voting rights and Jim Crow either, BTW. (I'd guess the argument was a slippery slope one more than an analogy, but that too is fraught).
Or the analogy between voting rights or gun rights.
There are some analogies between rights, I'm sure. But those 3 all have flaws.
Second Amendment absolutists are as disaffected and worthless as First Amendment absolutists . . and a core element of this white, male, right-wing blog's target audience.
Certain posters have taken this off on a Jim Crow tangent. The OP did not even mention Jim Crow. He didn’t compare voting rights to other rights. His comment was about Brown, which wasn’t even related to voting. He didn’t compare the two political positions at all, and didn’t say any motive was better than, or worse than, or equal to any other motive.
He simply pointed out that in the case of Brown and in the case of Braun there was a similarity in that the Supreme Court made a decision that was unpopular in some states and that those states tried to find some way to finagle their way around the SC ruling. That’s a reasonable, neutral observation. And it’s true. That’s all he said. He did not compare the morality of Brown to that of Breun.
Those of you offended by this think you’re showing moral virtue but you’re really just searching for some reason to be butthurt. Y’all are obviously morally superior to everyone else. So, hey, we noticed. Now maybe address the point of the article?
Precisely so.
The Supreme Court making a decision that is unpopular in some places and differential enforcement levels thereby is a very old and common story.
They could have chosen any example, or none at all.
No - this derail is about an intentional invocation of the Civil Rights era.
Both bruen and Brown were about civil rights.
bevis, you and Sarcastro are both off target. There is no proper comparison of voting power to gun rights. Voting is not a right. It is a sovereign power. Properly implemented, that power would be beyond the reach of government to control in any way. It would be administered independently by the sovereign, to assure methods and outcomes which reflected the sovereign's capacity to act at pleasure and without constraint.
By contrast, no rights are held at pleasure. All are bounded by sovereign decrees and related terms of law. Claims to rights which extend beyond those boundaries remain legitimately subject to constraint.
In the years after Brown v. Board of Education, did some state legislatures engage in resistance to the decision?
Is that happening now with Bruen?
What is either stupid or inappropriate in the comparison, now that we've established that the facts accurately fit?
Go clutch your idiot pearls elsewhere.
So-called “constitutional carry” was working fine, so why the rebrand?
It's just so much easier to enforce gun laws against law abiding citizens than it is to prosecute violations of gun laws by criminals.
And yet another state plays wack-a-mole with gun control laws.
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/maryland-governor-wes-moore-gun-control-bills-tightening-requirements-nra-lawsuit/
Just in from the Supreme court: "Just kidding! You weren't taking us seriously, were you?"
Supreme Court allows assault weapon ban in Illinois — for now
"The Supreme Court on Wednesday let Illinois ban the sale of semiautomatic weapons and large-capacity magazines — at least for now.
In an order issued by the high court, the justices declined a request from a gun rights group to block the law while the litigation plays out in lower courts."
Back to their old habit of refusing important 2nd amendment cases without explanation.
It didn't refuse any case, Brett. You again don't understand the topic.
Can you explain, in your own words, the technical details of what you think happened here?
[W]hat the State and the Legislature-Intervenors ignore, and what their empirical evidence fails to address, is that this legislation is aimed primarily—not at those who unlawfully possess firearms—but at law-abiding, responsible citizens who satisfy detailed background and training requirements and whom the State seeks to prevent from carrying a firearm in public for self-defense.
That reasoning implies a pre-existent class of privileged persons—the presumptively law-abiding—who must not be inconvenienced with any duty to obey a law necessary to constrain law breaking. Taken literally—as that assertion is always taken when gun advocates make it—that would forbid any and all laws against criminal conduct if compliance with them imposed any burden on non-criminals. A law against reckless driving could not be upheld, because it would impose a duty to drive carefully on people pre-judged to be non-reckless.
Although gun rights must be upheld under the law, legal presumption that anyone could be capable to commit gun crimes which are not protected rights must never be ruled out. Of course, resort to demands against inconveniencing, “law abiding gun owners,” are a commonplace of gun advocacy. It takes a particularly confused magistrate to accept such demands at face value. Gun advocates who argue that way should be corrected, not listened to.
"A law against reckless driving could not be upheld, because it would impose a duty to drive carefully on people pre-judged to be non-reckless. "
I'm confused. I thought reckless driving laws were of the form 'thou shalt not drive 90 MPH past the kindergarten', not 'because someone might drive 90MPH past the kindergarten, no one can drive'.
I mean, I thought we were all pre-judged to be non-reckless until we did something that was reckless. Massachusetts is different, I suppose? How many years of accident free driving are required before you are allowed to drive there?
Absaroka, you are having a bad day. The problem with misinterpreting the notion of innocence is that it is a courtroom standard, not a policy standard. When all your liberties are at stake, you get the presumption of innocence. There is no way that custom can be read to foreclose particular legislation because to pass some law making it a duty to do this, or not to do that, would inconvenience the innocent.
Ok, let's try another angle:
"That reasoning implies a pre-existent class of privileged persons—the presumptively law-abiding—who must not be inconvenienced with any duty to obey a law necessary to constrain law breaking. Taken literally—as that assertion is always taken when publishers make it—that would forbid any and all laws against criminal conduct if compliance with them imposed any burden on non-criminals. A law against reckless driving could not be upheld, because it would impose a duty to drive carefully on people pre-judged to be non-reckless.
Although first amendment rights must be upheld under the law, legal presumption that anyone could be capable of committing libel which is not a protected right must never be ruled out. Of course, resort to demands against inconveniencing, “law abiding publishers” are a commonplace of free speech advocacy. It takes a particularly confused magistrate to accept such demands at face value. Free speech advocates who argue that way should be corrected, not listened to."
So what kinds of restrictions on ownership and operation of printing presses by those who have never committed libel are permissible, in your view?
Do you want to take a mulligan on this one.
Reckless driving is akin to shooting a firearm in a crowded place. It is no defense to say, "No one was hurt, and I didn't intend to hurt anyone."
A law against reckless driving could not be upheld, because it would impose a duty to drive carefully on people pre-judged to be non-reckless.
I agree that Stephen's analogy here is a bit off target, so I will take the mulligan for him.
The fact is that people are not pre-judged to be non-reckless when it comes to driving. They have to demonstrate and ability to handle a car adequately when they first get a license and that they know a sufficient amount about traffic laws and rules of the road. Thus, they have to satisfy those requirements before being allowed to drive legally, even aside from any penalties for violating traffic laws.
No one could reasonably argue that people have a constitutional right to drive a motor vehicle. A right to travel from one place you are entitled to be to another place you are entitled to be by some means, though, I could see that. If it was ever necessary to argue against a government action that prevented you from, say, going from your house to your job, then you might assert such a right. You probably would not be successful in arguing that you had a right to drive a car to your job, thus you should not be burdened with having to get a license. Having to get a license to drive a motor vehicle is a rational public safety measure. That it adds some degree of burden on your ability to get to your job is not a valid reason for a court to declare such laws unconstitutional.
The government has a fundamental duty toward maintaining public safety. That is why government are often presumed to have the power to enact laws to that purpose, subject to a rational basis test. When a person's civil rights are restricted by public safety measures, the level of scrutiny goes up, but the government may still be able to satisfy the additional scrutiny. People have fundamental free speech rights, but courts have routinely upheld "time, place, and manner" restrictions in the name of public safety. If the logic of Bruen is to be taken seriously, it seems that all such restrictions should be reevaluated for consistency with Bruen's history and tradition test rather than tests used under current precedent.