The Volokh Conspiracy
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Some Less-Tentative Thoughts On Abortion And Religious Liberty, One Year Later
On June 20, 2022, I published a post titled Some Tentative Thoughts On The Jewish Claim To A "Religious Abortion." I started thinking about that post several weeks earlier. I only published it when I did to get ahead of the imminent Dobbs decision, which eventually was released on June 24 (a few days earlier than I expected). I spent as much as I did on the post because I knew it would be controversial. I was writing on two of the most hotly-contested topics in our polity, abortion and religious liberty, against the backdrop of a long-simmering divide within the Jewish community. I knew that my post would stir up a debate in my own circles--there would be tweets from law professors, essays on Slate, and maybe a few footnotes in post-Dobbs law review articles. But the reaction was far greater. The post went viral, and global. Beyond the usual suspects, my piece was discussed in Jewish publications in the United States and in Israel. And it was referenced in mainstream media sources.
In the past, some of my writings had triggered national conversations, such as my work during the Trump impeachments, but those reactions were seldom about me. At most, I was called a "partisan hack" or some such charge. But here, the reactions to my writing were quite personal. Even the local Jewish newspaper in Houston (yes, we have one) carried an editorial about my piece. People from a local synagogue invited me to attend a program they were hosting on the topic. (I wasn't able to make it, but I asked them to send me a recording). The rabbi from my parents' temple in New York asked me about it. People attacked me, in particular, as a Jew being critical of other Jews. In the lingo, chilul hashem, which is often used to describe a Jew defaming his own people. Or, to use the title of a recent book, a Bad Jew.
My usual policy is to respond to critics on my own terms, and my own timetable. I learned this lesson well during the Hamilton documents imbroglio of 2017. Law professors and others accused Tillman and me of doing something wrong, and demanded a response immediately. We took our time, prepared our response methodically, and--in my view at least--our strategy was vindicated. This lesson is all-too-important in our Twitter-crazed culture, where people make wild accusations, but seldom follow-up if they were mistaken. I am fairly confident that the overwhelming majority of people who criticized my piece did not actually read it. At most, they read a piece in Slate, or perhaps read a piece somewhere else that paraphrased what was in Slate, or most likely, read a few negative tweets, and went from there. It's like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy--something is lost with each successive reproduction. I don't fault people for not taking the time to read my lengthy post, which was filled with legal jargon and professorial nuances. That sort of writing does not translate well for wide-spread consumption. And I knew that fact going in, which is why I wrote a 1,900 word blog post, rather than a snappy op-ed.
I also do not fault the people who wrote on Slate and other sites about my piece. They responded in short order, and tried to summarize my fairly nuanced idea into a package that was readily accessible.
Indeed--and this part may surprise you--I am grateful that so many people wrote about my piece, even critically. I well know my place in our society. My views are never going to be popular with the elite actors. These prominent voices are not going to change their views based on something I write. Rather my goal, as always, is to stimulate discourse and, if I'm successful, change the grounds of debate. Call it shifting the Overton Window if you will, or to use another formulation, moving ideas from off the wall to on the wall. But consistently, my writings expand the outer bounds of what ideas are in the mainstream. The old saw that all press is good press holds true. The more people criticize me, the larger my platform becomes. I sincerely thank them for the attention, and amplifying my voice. Also, in a perverse way, I am grateful that so many people have begun to take religious liberty seriously. Will that sentiment carry over to cases like Hobby Lobby or Masterpiece Cakeshop? Probably not. The Green Family and Jack Phillips do not have the right religious views. But at least this new-found appreciation of RFRA vindicates those who have defended the law for decades.
After the initial flurry of writings about my post died down in the wake of Dobbs, several law professors wrote full-length treatments of my short, tentative post. In the NYU Law Review, David Schraub wrote Liberal Jews and Religious Liberty. In the Iowa Law Review, Richard Schragger and Micah Schwartzman wrote Religious Freedom and Abortion. There are others. I also co-authored a law review article with Howie Slugh and Tal Fortgang in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, titled Abortion and Religious Liberty. This articlec was based on an amicus brief the Jewish Coalition for Religious Liberty filed in the Indiana Court of Appeals.
I don't intend to do a line-by-line parsing of these other articles, as these articles did with my "tentative" thoughts. Rather, I want to address, at a high-level, what was the most common misperception of my work: that reform/liberal/progressive Jews cannot, as a categorical rule, state claims under the Free Exercise clause. I never, ever made that claim. I didn't think that was true last year, and I do not think that is true today. I now see that people could have drawn that inference from my post. (David Schraub helped me to see that point). And I'll take the blame here. My post was titled, "Tentative Thoughts," and I meant it. I wasn't intending to make a definitive, conclusive position.
Let me illustrate my position with a far less contentious hypothetical, taken from the Obamacare litigation. Imagine that a state seeks to promote pig farmers, and mandates that everyone must purchase a quantity of pork. People are not required to eat pork, just purchase it. Who could raise a free exercise challenge to this law? (Let's put aside any Due Process issues to make the issue easier).
Jewish people of all stripes abstain from eating pork. One category of Jews avoids pork as part of the comprehensive dietary rules, known as the rules of Kosher. They likewise only eat meat slaughtered in a ritual fashion, avoid mixing meat and dairy, do not eat shellfish, and so on. These Jews deem the prohibition on eating pork as a binding aspect of their faith.
A second category of Jews do not follow all, or most of the strict dietary rules, and do not deem the rules of Kosher as "binding." Yet, they still avoid eating non-kosher animals, such as pigs and various shellfish for some religious reason. Perhaps they deem the rules as advisory, or precatory, or something else. (I personally fall in this category.)
A third category of Jews do not follow any of the dietary rules, reject that these rules are binding, or even precatory, and routinely eat non-kosher animals. Or they abjure pork for non-religious reasons; for example, they are vegetarian, and do not eat any animals, or think that the treatment of pigs in slaughterhouses is inhumane.
Of course, it is a mistake to group any person into finely-delineated categories. Not everyone perfectly lines up in these groups, but I hope the categories are helpful to illustrate my hypothetical.
Which of these three categories of Jews could state a free exercise claim? The first category of Jews would have the easiest time making the claim, as the prohibition of eating pork is one of many religious dietary rules they follow. There is no doubt their objection is religious in nature, and their broad compliance with the dietary laws would demonstrate the sincerity of the claim.
The second category of Jews could likewise make the claim. I think they could establish their objection is religious in nature, even if they do not treat the laws of kosher as binding. Rather, they would need to show that their rejection of pork is due to some religious reason, even advisory or precatory. I don't think the courts could probe into the contours of that belief system. Courts can only determine if the person's beliefs are sincere. And if the person had long abjured pork, as part of their religious belief, then I think sincerity can be established.
The third category of Jews would have the hardest time. Their decision to avoid pork is in no sense due to religious beliefs--whether deemed as mandatory or precatory. And they routinely took the precise action that they now object to--eating pork. Of course a person is not locked into a particular belief system in perpetuity. People can find their faith at any time. But a new-found objection could give rise to a sincerity-based challenge. Still, if the person in the third category can demonstrate his objection is in fact religious in nature, and the claim is sincere, then a free exercise claim could go forward.
The pork hypothetical differs from the abortion example in one important regard. A person can credibly claim to abstain from pork for an extended period of time, which demonstrates that the practice is both religious in nature, and the belief is sincere. But a similar showing is difficult to make for a religious claim to abortion. How many women can credibly show that they have previously had an abortion as part of their religious exercise? Indeed, prior to Dobbs, while Roe and Casey prevailed, there would have been little reason for most women to even cite a religious justification for the procedure.
A woman might claim to have always believed that her religion required, or at least recommended an abortion in certain circumstances. But a mere belief, divorced from action based on that belief--as religious liberty litigators know all too well--is a weaker basis for a court-granted exemption. To show that this belief is religious in nature, and is sincere, the woman would have to demonstrate more broadly her commitment to Judaism. That can be done through a host of factors, including ties to a religious community, practicing of certain religious tenets (whether as mandatory or precatory), and so on. This burden can be satisfied, but I think it would be harder for a woman who does not belong to a Jewish community, and cannot show other tangible ways in which her faith has impacted her behavior, to provide some indicia that the professed religious belief is sincere. That burden would not turn on whether she believed Jewish law was binding in any formal sense.
Let me state my conclusion simply: reform or progressive or liberal Jews--however they are denominated--can state sincere free exercise claims for religious freedom, regardless of whether they deem Jewish law as binding or not. I failed to sufficiently articulate this point in my "tentative thoughts" post.
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You can say anything you want about JB as long as you talk about him.
I am reminded of Dolly Parton's response when informed that the cloned sheep "Dolly" had been named after her: there's no such thing as baaad publicity.
I saw what you did there, good one!
Only 89 out of 1863 words in this piece are first-person pronouns. That is less than five percent! Surely he can talk a little bit more about JB than that.
That’s the kind of analysis I’d expect out of a child.
Counting pronouns is not how you determine the subject of a sentence. God you’re fucking dumb.
1. "Indeed, prior to Dobbs, while Roe and Casey prevailed, there would have been little reason for most women to even cite a religious justification for the procedure."
That's because they didn't have to give any (religious or otherwise), justification.
2. "But a mere belief, divorced from action based on that belief–as religious liberty litigators know all too well–is a weaker basis for a court-granted exemption. To show that this belief is religious in nature, and is sincere, the woman would have to demonstrate more broadly her commitment to Judaism."
Wow, just making shit up now.
Yeah - I wonder how all those people who claimed a religious exemption from vaccination, or from recognising gay marriage, etc., had to prove their sincerity.
I personally know people who were denied a vax exemption because they weren’t deemed sincere. Their employer was under the umbrella of state government. This wasn't even a job like doctor or anything with extensive human contact.
You noticed that, huh? It's a complete bullshit assertion, completely divorced from the way RFRA cases are litigated in the real world.
I sincerely wanted to read this because Blackman is always good for a laugh. But then I got to his early obligatory humblebrag — “In the past, some of my writings had triggered national conversations…” — and laughed too hard to keep reading. It’s not like I wasn’t expecting it. But it just grabbed me for some reason. Must be Spring Fever or something. Oh well, next time. Won’t be long.
At least I did catch this bit at the end, which is funny because it flies in the face of this Supreme Court’s rulings since at least Hobby Lobby, which you’d *think* Blackman might know. That is, you would if you didn’t know Blackman.
“But a mere belief, divorced from action based on that belief–as religious liberty litigators know all too well–is a weaker basis for a court-granted exemption. To show that this belief is religious in nature, and is sincere, the woman would have to demonstrate more broadly her commitment to Judaism.”
"I sincerely wanted to read this . . . . "
According to Prof. Blackman, we all have to prove our sincerity now.
I only barely made it past the second sentence, where he brags about how he actually thought about his post before submitting it.
Well, this is even more useless than his usual nonsense; not even really worth engaging with to dunk on other than the rather armor-piercing points of apedad and SRG.
But as to abortion, for all the 'now abortion is to the laboratory of the states' rhetoric, the federal GOP sure seems into trying to use it as a national wedge issue.
And the red states are going for drugs, and I heard criminalizing the women now.
It’s a logically consistent position to take. If you believe that abortion is murder, then everyone involved — the pregnant woman, the doctor, the taxi driver who took her to what he knew was an abortion facility, the clinic staffer who signed her in, the medical supply company that sold the instruments to the clinic — are part of a conspiracy to commit murder and should be punished accordingly. They may be nuts but at least they’re consistent.
It is consistent. It is also monstrously unpopular.
Since when has that influenced anything?
It's why neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump is president.
I'm not aware of too many abortion opponents honest enough to punish the woman as a murderer.
Maybe it's not dishonesty so much as a view of women as subordinate. They are baby makers and not fully responsible adults. Like children, they are to be given lesser punishments than men.
Complete BS. You are also insulting all the pro-life women by saying they think themselves inferior.
Its just a nod to public opinion. Its like when Democrats talk about secure borders.
Pro-life women have their own reasons for the positions they take, I suppose. But as for pro-life men, they are either okay with turning women into second-class citizens, or they are too stupid to realize that is what they are doing.
Bob, pro-life women have been conditioned from cradle-to-grave to be subordinate. Can you quote any scripture that says otherwise?
Josh, go on line; you’ll find them.
Josh R : “I’m not aware of too many abortion opponents honest enough to punish the woman as a murderer”
Absolutely true, and for two reasons:
1. They don’t really believe it’s murder themselves, or they only do in some cases and not in others – and always to varying degrees. In the case of IVF clinics, of course not. Those aren’t sluts looking to escape the consequences of their irresponsibility, but matrons trying to fulfil their womanly duty. Murder? Of course not! Large numbers support rape and incest exceptions. Seeing it as murder in those cases would be monstrous, so the baby isn’t a baby then. And there’s almost no support for charging the women herself because it’s “murder” only to the extent the harlot shouldn’t have an easy out but not – you know – real murder….
2. It would also be politically inconvenient to charge the women, and the anti-abortionism is, above all else, a belief of pure convenience. It’s the most cost-free consumer-friendly & expeditious form of righteousness found in today’s marketplace. If someone is looking for a nice demonstrative piety, it’s the go-to choice for ease of use. Wanton hussies vs cherubic proto-baby zygotes. What could be simpler? And if you discover your wife, sister or daughter is facing a terrible situation, you can always “discover” that she’s not the irresponsible slut of your imagination. All those other women are...
Just to be clear, you DO know that fetal homicide laws already exist in almost all states, right?
In other words, it doesn't even require a new law to have a woman that kills an unborn child charged as a murderer?
Yes, but the federal law only applies to 60 recognized federal crimes of violence. You'll have to get abortion rescheduled as a crime of violence in order to lock up all them pre-teen hussies
What do federal ‘crime of violence’ definitions have to do with states punishing homicides?
I thought fetal homicide laws don't apply to voluntary abortions.
If abortions are not legal, then that exception would not apply, would it?
That's the entire premise of the question, I assume - unless you're accusing anti-abortion activists of being unwilling to lock people up for something they thing is wrong but is legal.
I think most pro-lifers do not want to punish the woman because either 1) deep down they don't think abortion is murder or 2) it's political suicide to do so.
I certainly agree with your reason 2 for politicians, but I suspect you'd see it start happening anyway, in at least some jurisdictions.
For once I'll stick up for the Republican Party, but only on one narrow issue - they have for years professed to be against abortion. I don't believe that the key leaders (as opposed to some of the rank and file) *actually* care about human life, but it's what they told the public.
Look at what they said in 2012, when they nominated the rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth right-wing troglodyte Mitt Romney for President:
"The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life
"Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children....We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life."
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform
Nothing in there about labaratories of the states, that's a backtracking from what they said before.
Again, I distinguish between certain honest rank-and-file party members who believe in the sanctity of human life and the actual party leaders, who don't care about human life but saw it as a vote-getter so long as Roe was in force. And they expected Roe to be in force indefinitely, as something they could campaign against without doing anything about it.
But wonder of wonders...after decades bitching about Roe while wanting it to stay on the books, Roe is gone, and they're going to be obliged to admit they lied about respecting human life.
Though the word hasn't fully gotten down to the state level.
Perhaps a third party which genuinely supports human life (including the lives of people taken in unjust wars) can emerge?
“And they expected Roe to be in force indefinitely, as something they could campaign against without doing anything about it.”
Didn’t just expect, they made sure of it. It’s no accident that GOP Presidents kept ‘screwing up’ and nominating justices who just happened to uphold abortion rights. They were getting what they actually wanted, and never mind what they’d been telling the voters they wanted.
I suppose an example for the Democrats would be reparations. The saner Democrats know it's never, ever happening, and that it would be political suicide to seriously attempt it, but they keep making noises about it anyway.
I served a single term on a city council once, about twenty years ago. The first thing I learned after taking office is that running for office and actually governing are two very different things. A lot of ideas that sound brilliant on the campaign trail look really, really awful when faced with actually implementing them. For some politicians, sure, it's dishonesty. For others, it's simply getting some reality therapy once you're the actual decision maker about how politics actually works.
The GOP is about to find out just how bad an idea it was to get rid of Roe v. Wade. It's a great talking point if you're rallying your hard core base, but in the real world, a world without abortion access is a complete non-starter. My prediction is that within ten years, and maybe five, abortion will again be the law of all fifty states, either because the Supreme Court flips again, or because Congress does so by statute.
"For some politicians, sure, it’s dishonesty. For others, it’s simply getting some reality therapy once you’re the actual decision maker about how politics actually works."
That's an argument that only works for your first election. Even if having to govern does change your mind, when you run for reelection if you don't fess up to having changed your mind, it's then dishonest.
If a politician, upon taking office, realizes his election promises were bullshit, and he has to choose between governing badly or going back on his promises, he should choose option three - resigning. Let some other politician with more realistic promises take over.
Which Democrats are "making noises" about reparations?
“Which Democrats are “making noises” about reparations?”
The ones who passed this:
“California Assembly Bill 3121 establishes the Task Force to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals for African Americans, with a Special Consideration for African Americans Who are Descendants of Persons Enslaved in the United States (Task Force or Reparations Task Force). ”
or these ones
“Eighty percent of Detroit voters approved a 2021 measure that called for the creation of a task force to study and address the issue of reparations. “
More things that happened literally only in the delusional mind of conspiracy theorist Brett Bellmore.
The last time that a GOP president "Screwed up and nominated a justice who just happened to uphold abortion rights" was thirty-three years ago. Nobody knew that would happen. Dems were hysterical that Souter would overturn Roe.
Two years before that, it also happened… but only after Robert Bork's nomination went down in flames; Bork would not have upheld abortion rights. Before that, Scalia was nominated. He did not uphold abortion rights. Before that, Sandra Day O'Connor five years earlier.
In other words, of the last 11 Supreme Court nominations by the GOP (I am not counting the promotion of Rehnquist to CJ, as he was already on the court), stretching back 32 years, 8 of them did not support abortion rights.
Yeah, imagine believing a right would exist indefinitely. What will these crazy Libs think of next?
Mitt Romney on Roe v. Wade, circa 1994: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5nET45EU4
The internet never forgets.
Ouch! Well spotted. Well, that's Romney finished on this issue. How many other Repubs have flip-flopped that badly to retain power?
OK, I'm just a pimply faced 15 year old lefthanded jewish kid eating Not-yo-cheese Doritos in my Mom's basement, so we've got AlGores Internets and I see on the Wiki-pedia
Abortion in Israel is permitted when determined by a termination committee, with the vast majority of cases being approved as of 2019.
"Termination Committee"??? wow, awful close to "Ex-termination Committee"
There post meeting cocktail hours must be a hoot,
Frank "not my real name" Drackman
So religious exercise authorizes abortions?
“Yes!”
So it authorizes both male and female circumcision of children by parents?
“No!”
Peyote?
“Shut up!”
With the new SCOTUS, and Covid stuff, there has been a shift in Free Exercise jurisprudence.
We don't know what the new contours are, but the inconsistency you see is how time and precedent work, not any hypocricy. Unless you know of someone taking all those opinions at once.
Me? I'm a Smith fan still.
A wise teacher once explained that use of one’s personal pronoun in writing alienated many readers, convinced others the author was an egomaniac, and distracted other readers from the topic and the arguments. When an author seems self-involved, his message is often lost.
Interesting mindset to have when writing about Jewish people. But hey, what could possibly go wrong...right!?
I...I...I...I...
Me...Me...Me...Me
Narcissistic clown. VC is sullied by your posting once again, Josh.
"I wanna talk about me, wanna talk about I
Wanna talk about number one, oh my, me my
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see
I like talking about you, you, you, you usually
But occasionally, I wanna talk about me (me, me, me, me)
I wanna talk about me (me, me)"
I am skeptical that a state's prohibition of abortion would give rise to any free exercise claim under the First Amendment. I am less sure, however, that such a prohibition would not trigger analysis under a state RFRA enactment as a substantial burden on a pregnant woman's religious exercise.
Suppose a pregnant woman sues, claiming that her interpretation of Genesis 2:7 indicates that no human becomes a living soul until (s)he draws breath, and that she sincerely believes that her religion mandates abortion of her fetus under some circumstances. If she pleads that such circumstances exist in her case, wouldn't the burden shift to the state to show that the prohibition of abortion furthers a compelling governmental interest, which cannot be achieved by means less restrictive of the plaintiff's religious liberty?
Even the Roe Court was willing to admit a compelling governmental interest in fetal life after viability.
Yes, but how will the new court square that against its overwhelming support of religious liberty?
A cursory search of the literature reveals that Josh's "novel idea" was discussed as far back as 1979.
Skahn, Steven L. "Abortion laws, religious beliefs and the first amendment." Val. UL Rev. 14 (1979): 487.
It's not hard to go from killing babies to killing Jews.
Just sayin....
Well, we went 50-odd years without going there.
Well you weren't done with your eugenics program on the black population yet. I admire your restraint.
But aborting fetuses is not the same as killing babies - certainly not according to the Torah and the Talmud, or to most atheists.
Like owning Black Peoples wasn't the same as owning White Peoples, "It's in the Bible!!" (HT Rev J. Wright)
First, this experience might be a lesson not to be so quick to offer tentative thoughts without thinking them through.
Second, the religious position Professor Blackman criticized is followed by a significant stream of Orthodox Jews as well as (it would appear) almost anyone to the left who uses traditional concepts in their religious thinking. Eliezar Waldenberg, the “Tzitz Eliezar,” a well-known and widely followed Hareidi (“ultra-Orthodox”) religious judge, issued an opinion in 1975 that an abortion would be justified if the mother experienced “pain and distress” from not having one, the position at issue in the legal case Professor Blackman was commenting on. It’s authority as a real Jewish position, an Orthdox one is unassailable. (The “Rav Moshe” referred to in the link is Moshe Feinstein, also a famous 20th century Hareidi religious judge, who is the author of an opinion reaching the opposite conclusion, that abortion is prohibited except in extremely dire life-threatening circumstances. Rav Moshe’s opinion is also an unassailably legitimate Orthodox Jewish position.)
Third, I think the claim has much more force than Professor Blackman acknowledged. Claimants would appear to win unless either (a) Smith applies and there is no compelling interest analysis, (b) The pre-Smith standard actually requires something less than a compelling interest, and protecting fetal life pre-viability is a sufficiently heightened interest, or (c) protecting fetal life is a compelling interest.
Dobbs said little that would suggest (b) or (c) applies. In overruling Roe, it said only that abortion is subject to rational basis scrutiny (like, say, laws about the confinement of pigs used for pork.) Nothing in Dobbs itself says the Constitution sees a greater interest in pre-viability fetal life than that. So quite frankly, absent any new word from the Supreme Court, judges inclined to permit abortion wherever possible would appear to be well within their rights and a strictly fair reading of the law to allow such claims under state laws or constitutional provisions (or similar) requiring applying pre-Smith standards for protecting religious Free Exercise rights.
Fourth, I would partially agree with Professor Blackman that judges can in general police sincerety to determine whether an ostensible religious position was simply made up for convenience. But because this particular religious position has such a well-documented history and literature, I think it would likely pass any sort of evidence-based sincerity test.
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/964154/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/rav-moshe-and-his-halachic-adversaries-the-tzitz-eliezer-and-abortion/
Sorry, the opinion was that an abortion would be REQUIRED, not just justified, if the mother experienced pain and distress from not having one. The link is to a lecture at Yeshiva University.
Also, on my 4th point, I do not think that a sincerity test that says people have to be consistently religious in order to bring a religion claim is consistent with the Court’s precedents. The Free Exercise Clause is not limited to saints nor only to the extremely devout. I’d agree that in a case where people who have no previous connection to religion suddenly adapt a religious position when it’s especially convenient could be scrutinized. But the case Professor Blackman discussed did not involve anything like this. It involved people who had maintained a consistent connection to religion, just to religious denominations that placed more emphasis on beliefs and ethics and such than on ritual practice. Professor Blackman seems to be asking why are they (and is their denominayion) suddenly adopting a religious position grounded in the ritual-practice side of things in its doctrinal underpinnings. I simply don’t see that kind of question as the sort of question the First Amendment permits civil judges to ask.
"Sorry, the opinion was that an abortion would be REQUIRED, not just justified, if the mother experienced pain and distress from not having one."
That's too strong. A pregnancy practically by definition causes a certain level of pain and distress. Your definition would require anyone who was pregnant to obtain an abortion. That's not in keeping with the religious understanding.
Not precisely, and the difference while subtle is important. The Tzitz Eliezer opinion discussed above says a religious judge must order the woman appearing before him to have an abortion if the judge finds that not having an abortion would cause the woman appearing before him pain and distress, and the woman must obey the order of the religious judge if given.
However, the opinion does not require the woman to appear before the religious judge. If she finds not having an abortion painful but bearable, she’s under no obligation to ASK for an abortion.
The opinions of Judaism’s right are in general entirely about what MALE religious leaders do when faced with a woman who appears before them; women merely appear and obey. Moreover, they sometimes treat woman as lacking complete agency and self-control. It just so happens – it’s a mere coincidence – that looking at things this way happens to give the woman essentially complete choice about whether to have an abortion or not, because she can decide whether or not to go through the ritual of appearing before a religious court and asking for one.
Exactly as you say, just about every woman can find a pregnancy distressful. And exactly as you infer, virtually every request under this rubric is in fact granted. Nonetheless, there remains the ritual of appearing before a religious judge, having specified legal criteria applied, and issuing and following orders.
If it helps, think of the way interstate commerce works in US courts. They rarely find something isn’t interstate commerce, so they almost never say no to Congress. But each and every time they say yes, they faithfully follow a prescribed ritual before doing so.
Judaism’s left seems to have essentially no problem with the framing of this approach, since it leads to the results they want.
Listen to the lecture in the link.
First, this experience might be a lesson not to be so quick to offer tentative thoughts without thinking them through.
He claims he spent several weeks thinking about them before posting.
We can grant that there are people (Jews and others) who believe in having abortions for religious reasons, just as there were those who believed in throwing virgins into volcanoes for religious reasons, or ritually sacrificing humans beings and cutting their hearts out for religious reasons.
The question in each case is whether banning such practices is narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling governmental interest, and I’d say yes in all cases.
Why is that the question? Dobbs says it isn’t. Dobbs explicitly threw out the requirement that pre-viability abortion prohibitions have to pass compelling interest. It said that only a rational basis is required, and found that there is a rational basis for prohibiting abortion. Dobbs completely rejected the route of saying a compelling interest requirement remains in place, but prohibitions on abortion pass it.
I've criticized the Dobbs decision. Here's the link I provided, criticizing (in 2021) what the author correctly believed would be the rationale in Dobbs:
."Originalists seek to resurrect Stephen Douglas’s solutin to the moral crisis of slavery in the context of the moral crisis of abortion. The Supreme Court will, they hope, strike down Roe and Casey on the grounds that the federal Constitution does not enshrine a right to abortion....
"What Abraham Lincoln understood—and what Stephen Douglas did not understand—is that this is not an answer to a moral crisis. Whether you call it originalism or popular sovereignty or any other name, it does not answer Lincoln’s fundamental objection, the fundamental objection from the classical legal tradition: no one has a right to do a wrong."
https://iusetiustitium.com/little-giant-constitutionalism/
Except that's not the argument. The argument is this: A woman needs an abortion because not having one will ruin her life, and my religion requires me to help those in need. Which is readily distinguishable from tossing virgins into volcanoes.
Aztec religion requires them to avoid the terrible bloodshed of civil war.
But if subject populations become restive, there will be civil war.
Sacrificing members of subject populations keeps them intimidated and in line, and the Gods will give us peace.
Still distinguishable. Helping a woman get an abortion benefits her, and the issue is that I'm helping an actual person who needs help. Tossing a virgin into a volcano merely aids religion itself. The state is not required to assume that any religion is true.
Think of it this way: Giving a thousand dollars to a soup kitchen, and giving a thousand dollars to a wealthy church to install yet another stained glass window in their sanctuary, will both get you a tax deduction, but one of those donations is far more charitable than the other.
Abortion is not like a soup kitchen at all. Unless you want to eat the baby.
And why not? It wouldn't be like cannibalism, since it's not human, right?
It is human but it's not a human person. It's like the soup kitchen because it provides tangible, visible benefits to a real person, in this case the pregnant woman.
"It is human but it’s not a human person."
Yeah, we've heard that one before.
" Tossing a virgin into a volcano merely aids religion itself. "
Not if the virgin believes she will be rewarded in the afterlife. Its a mental benefit, just like the abortion claim.
Women whose unplanned pregnancies have destroyed their careers, their marriage prospects and their economic well being would disagree that abortion is just a mental benefit.
That said, the virgin can believe whatever she likes. The question is whether hopping into the volcano provides her with an actual, tangible, visible benefit.
"would disagree that abortion is just a mental benefit"
Maybe but the alleged Jewish position we are discussing is limited to "distress".
What happened to adoption all of a sudden?
The argument works something like this. There’s a passage in the talmud that says that if a pregnant woman craves pork, you give it to her, even on Yom Kippur, because a pregnancy craving represents a sign of a threat to life, and if there’s a threat to life, than you do almost anything short of murder.
The opinion is a straightforward application of the principle. Craving an abortion is simply a kind of pregnancy craving, just like craving pork. And because a fetus isn’t fully a person, an abortion, while a wrong, is a wrong similar to eating pork on Yom Kippur, not a wrong similar to murder.
There’s obviously a strongly opposed contrary opinion. One could argue the life being preserved in the Talmud included the fetus’, and erring on the side of lifting fast obligations and food restrictions in a world without much diagnostic knowledge was done as much to help preserve the fetus’ life as the mothers’, while abortion is something wholly different from fast obligations and food restrictions. But the Talmud uses the pregnant-woman-and-pork example as its occassion to articulate the general principle that you can do almost anything to save a life, and also a principle that pregnancy cravings represent a danger to life as a matter of religious law. The liberal opinion merely claims that both elements mean exactly what they say, so craving a pregnancy is just like craving pork. (The talmud passage refers to the woman asking for and being giving the pork. She can ask for it but isn’t allowed to just do it herself. That limitation was preserved.)
"And because a fetus isn’t fully a person, an abortion, while a wrong, is a wrong similar to eating pork on Yom Kippur, not a wrong similar to murder."
Again, this goes to the sincerity of the objector's religious belief, which only comes into play if restricting abortion if *not* the least restrictive means of carrying out a compelling government interest.
If abortion bans *are* the least restrictive means of fulfilling a compelling government interest, the fact that the objector thinks an abortion is like eating pork is of no moment.
The only question at issue would be the honor of the Jewish people, or rather their religion, and the honor of those whose faith is built on the foundations of the Jewish religion.
Don't forget Sati -- the practice of throwing the widow onto the burning funeral pyre of her husband.
When some British Colonial administrator was told about this practice, his response was simple: "That may be true, but we have a tradition of hanging murderers."
That was the end of Sati.
And wants an abortion for religious reasons, she can then be executed for religious reasons as well...
You need to learn to edit, Josh. If you have any point to make at all, in this post, it's buried under four paragraphs of apparently pointless self-flattery. I gave up at that point.
RE: "But consistently, my writings expand the outer bounds of what ideas are in the mainstream."
John Waters could make the same claim about himself, with better justification. Josh, if you have never watched Pink Flamingos (1972), now would be a good time.
...and he never again looked at chickens in the same way
Ahh, the fabulous Divine, such a Joke in the 80's, and now she's Assistant Secretary for Health and an Admiral in the United States Pubic Health Service Commissioned Corps.
The sad truth is that most liberal Jews believe in Judaism when it aligns with their political views. Otherwise, the tenets of Judaism mean nothing to them. Indeed, that's the true reason for the popularity of the Hebrew phrase "tikkun olam," usually translated as "repair the world." By tagging their every political effort with that phrase, however unconnected to religion that effort might be, they cloak themselves with a veneer of religiosity and nobility of purpose. It allows them to simultaneously feel superior, invoke a minority status, and to look down their noses at anyone who disagrees with them.
Tell us more about the secret thoughts of the Bad Jews.
He's wrong about this bad Jew. I don't believe in Judaism even when it does align with my political views.
My sense of the whole "Jewish belief requiring abortion access" argument is that it is simply an attempt to hoist the right on their own petard, rather than selective religiosity. I could be wrong.
They're not secret.
So do they cloak themselves or not?
The Tallit of Secrecy!
Right. They don't keep Shabbat or kashrut or most other Jewish laws, maybe avoid pork. Completely secular.
"It allows them to simultaneously feel superior, invoke a minority status, and to look down their noses at anyone who disagrees with them."
OK, at least you're not blaming me for killing Hey-Zeuss
Frank
Who the fuck are u to impugn the sincerity of my religious beliefs while accusing anyone who questions yours of religious bigotry?
What is.....something an internet troll would say?
An internet troll or terminally online Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Now may be a good time to quote Albert Einstein:
Exactly. Now, liberate yourself and your society from the vestiges of the childish dogma that some creator god created humans equally. Appreciate that your very concept of equality is a social construct, and that your morality was made and shaped by people who wanted to control your ancestors and you.
Jews are not afraid to ask such questions. Christians, yes.
Why would Christians be afraid to ask such questions? They've been doing so for a couple thousand years. The ones who do get drowned out by the more evangelical or fundamentalist in terms of media representation these days, but back in the 50s and 60s folks like the Niebuhr brothers or Bultmann or Robinson were more the media go-tos for US protestant thought. I can't speak to Catholicism.
Christians have a long history of burning people at the stake who ask questions.
In the Catholicism I was brought up in, one did not ask questions.
And yet, there is also thousands of years of history of Christians asking questions and not being 'burned at the stake'.
It's almost as if any ideology in power sometimes cracks down on its people - including Jews, Confucians, Buddhists, and a near endless array of political beliefs.
No, the difference is that Jews who ask such questions continue nonetheless to call themselves Jews.
Who said this in 1949? “…we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.”
Who went on to say this? “Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable…”
Who then ruined the above by saying: “I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils [of capitalism], namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child.”
https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
Those who agree with the second statement will hesitate at the third. Those who endorse the third statement will hesitate to approve the second.
As to the first statement, it reduces the value of Einstein’s sociopolitical opinions, at least in the sense of “Einstein said it, I believe it, that settles it.”
Well noted.
This entire discussion is misdirected. Unless there is a threat to the mother's life, no branch of Judaism requires an abortion, at most it is optional. So the fact that your brand of Judaism (or any other religion) is more permissive on abortion than the law of your state does not mean your rights are being impinged.
Suppose some state decided they were outlawing kumquats, because for some reason they think kumquats are immoral. As an Orthodox Jew, my religion has no objection to kumquats. But neither is it a religious obligation to eat one or have one. So the law does not burden my religion in the least. I don't think I would have a Free Exercise claim.
Turns out some Jews disagree with your take on Judaism.
And kumquats.
Who said
__ Kanye West
__ Dennis Rader
__ George Santos’ campaign treasurer
__ William Luther Pierce
__ Theodore Kaczynski
__ National Republican Senatorial Committee
__ Sergei Milus
__ Josh Blackman
__ Elon Musk
Feel free to choose more than one.
Prof. Blackman is merely stating the obvious: Republican conservatives will decide who the real Jews and good Jews are . . . abandon hope, ye who do not worship Trump.
Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Especially over sacred ignorance and dogmatic intolerance.
Choose reason. Every time. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so. By then, childhood indoctrination fades as an excuse for gullibility, backwardness, bigotry, ignorance, and superstition. By adulthood -- this includes ostensible adulthood -- it is no excuse, even in the most desolate Republican backwater one might find.
Choose reason. Every time. And education, modernity, inclusiveness, science, freedom, and progress. Avoid superstition, ignorance, backwardness, insularity, dogma, authoritarianism, bigotry, and pining for "good old days" that never existed. Not 75 years ago. Not 175 years ago. Not 2,000 years ago, except in fairy tales suitable solely for young children and especially gullible adolescents.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Thank you.
AIDS, you bigoted imbecile, you don’t even understand basic first-order logic, and you don’t give a damn when it’s shown how and when your own statements here transgress it.
You are furthermore a fascist pig who actively, explicitly promotes authoritarian speech codes and the suppression of free thought and ideas. You also regularly demonstrate that you lack the mental acuity to even begin to critique and analyse your own dogmas and concepts. Instead, you offer mere slogans that you yourself don’t exemplify.
Choose death, AIDS. You don’t deserve to live amongst the free, rational, logical, thinking peoples of the earth. You're certainly not equal or worth of being treated as such.
I agree, Arthur, it's irrational to have a religion which justifies human sacrifice. I'm glad we agree.
As just one further example of your mental retardation, AIDS, what are the boundaries of ‘inclusiveness’: to treat the religious with dignity and respect, or to mock and exclude them, telling them to abandon their traditional beliefs?
OR does inclusivity instead entail that one should publicly profess respect of such groups whilst privately mocking and acting to subvert their communities? How many American blue team airheads delude themselves into thinking that the rest of the world is actually fooled by American 'liberals' and 'progressives'' public expressions of support for multiculturalism and pluralism, and so are wholly ignorant of your real aims of nudging them towards secularism and using their children as clay in some new (post-religious, post-ethnic, post-cultural) American person and society you wish to construct–absent ANY credible empirically-grounded skills on your part to do so? Do you know what the entire Islamic world actually thinks of you blue team idiots?
Do you think your JD trained you to possess genuine, empirically-grounded and tested social engineering skills? How many American law profs tell their students lies about the latter being trained to be social engineers? How, moreover, is your ‘progressive’ delusion of non-empirical social re-engineering of America any less irrational than the traditional religions? Any less messianic? Just like the Jacobin’s new French Man. Just like the new Soviet Man.
Choose reason, AIDS. Choose your own death, and do so soon.
I urge people — adults, especially — to choose reason.
Do you find that more objectionable than churches’ recruitment efforts, televangelists fundraising campaigns, street corner preachers’ loud advocacy, the placement of superstition in our Pledge of Allegiance and on our currency, and the like?
Here is a prominent Christian exhibiting the common fruits of old-timey religion.
Gullible, bigoted right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties — and the core audience of a white, male, conservative blog with a vanishingly thin academic veneer consisting mostly of the misappropriated franchises of legitimate educational institutions that made a few poor hiring decisions.
Your entire American culture is on the precipice. You’re just too parochial and stupid to see it.
You are being replaced, AIDS, by people who not only outbreed you, but who also consciously reject your values as both garbage AND imperialism. The Global South aside, even most Western Europeans basically believe that your American blue state culture is patently inferior. You are not equal, AIDS. The rest of the West doesn’t want to be like YOU, and not just like the Jesus people. From the true left to real right, the WEST is sick of you trying to ram your identity politics and version of multiculturalism bullshit down our throats. (We certainly know we’d all be worse off if we adopted your ‘progressive’ election laws of late.)
Reason, furthermore, does NOT underpin your values, your conceits notwithstanding. Reason instead shows that yours forms part of an evolutionarily inferior meme. As mentioned before, you need immigrants PRECISELY BECAUSE they don’t believe what you believe about core aspects of living. If you didn’t have people from outside the system who believe in traditional families AND breed, your ‘liberal’-‘progressive’ value system would lead to America’s immanent collapse. You wouldn’t be able to support the system.
Furthermore, basic logic shows that YOU don’t believe the implications of your own dogmas; you reject certain cultures and value systems as ‘inferior’ (the superstitious, the intolerant, etc) WITHOUT any real metric by which to adjudge cultures on YOUR part, and without any real skill set to make (your American version of) multiculturalism viable. Fuck: your country’s tearing itself at the seams, and you think more, radically divergent value pluralism is going to help (including in your courts?).
BE an adult, AIDS. Choose Reason, AIDS. Don’t dedicate so much of your life to trolling a website, let alone in order to espouse your quasi-religious dogmas of equality, tolerance, etc, whilst nonetheless SIMULTANEOUSLY offering incessant hateful attacks that BELIE your non-commitment to those same values. Be an adult, AIDS. Admit that you don’t know anything about the real world outside of your little American bubble, and that your time is over, Baizuo.
What to do? Think about all the things you hate about the Jesus people, then ACTUALLY DO THE WORK to find out what percentage of the the Islamic world, Africa, and others, adhere to essentially the same norms. Then, ask yourself why you and your lot, to the extent you’re even aware of such things, are too cowardly to speak of such things publicly.
You can shit on American unis all you want, AIDS. Most of the rest of the West believes the same thing about your whole academic system; it’s widely known (not merely believed) that, outside of the hard sciences, the hiring processes of your country’s system is largely non-meritorious. You simply speak from a position of ignorance and don’t give a shit that you do either. Forget the right: ask any real old school leftist in the academy about this, if you know any. And read Adolph Reed on the ‘cancelling’ of socialists by 'progressives'.
With the qualification that, as bad as it is in the social sciences and humanities, American law schools and their hiring processes are far more corrupt and non-meritorious. (That's no surprise as people who were never trained to be scholars, but were trained to be advocates, are the ones doing the hiring.)
Still unclear on four counts
"reform or progressive or liberal Jews–however they are denominated–can state sincere free exercise claims for religious freedom, regardless of whether they deem Jewish law as binding or not''
1) Inquiring about their view on Jewish law is coerced speech. Not your business to know
2) Who gets to define progressive or liberal Jew? ....thought so
3) The very branding of any position as religious logically means the opposite must be religious. Why is my view on 'X' different if it is religious rather than just what my conscience dictates?
4) Free exercise must exist on a bedrock of some belief sustaining the country. If X is good/moral/allowed and opposite-of-X is too, then the winner is the person of violence , money , and force. That has always been true.
1) Inquiring about their view on Jewish law is coerced speech. Not your business to know
If someone brings a challenge to a law (say, that outlaws abortion, or that mandates closing businesses on a Sunday), then they are putting their religious views at issue, and may be questioned on it. In virtually every case, the sincerity of the person's assertion of religious conviction is presumed, but the person has to at least articulate something.
3) The very branding of any position as religious logically means the opposite must be religious
Don't see the logic there. Some religions requires something that other religions, or non-religious people, are neutral towards. Jews eat unleavened bread on the night of Passover; most others are indifferent to doing that, and certainly are not bothered that Jews buy and eat unleavened bread.
Why is my view on ‘X’ different if it is religious rather than just what my conscience dictates?
Because the First Amendment protects the Free Exercise of religion.
“To be fair, both parties have this issue.”
Um…duh?
Like I said, we need a prolife third party with ballot access.
"saw it as a vote-getter so long as Roe was in force"
Votes only matter every couple of years, but fundraising never stops.
Forget it, Jake, it’s the Internet.
Anyway, I should have turned the snark off, I really am sorry.
We Jews don't do (WJDD) "Sacraments"
we don't do "WWJD" either
you'd know if you'd been "Chosen"
Frank
Sacrament "wasn't chosen"??
I saw what you did there, well played.
and probably one of the few Jews who attended a "Papal Audience" John Paul II, mid 1990's, hey if you deploy to Italy, you gotta visit Rome, you visit Rome, you gotta see the Pope, you no see-a-da-Pope, you look like-a-dope!
Don't remember much "Religious" about it, probably 30 minutes of the Popes guy recognizing various Youth groups,
"Lets-a-hear-a-big-a-hand for "Piccole fanciulle del sacro cuore"!!!!!
and the crowd would go crazy, on and on, finally a little Latin verse, JP2 did that pill rolling gesture, and he was gone, like a Sleepy Joe "Press Opportunity" except JP2 wasn't nearly as demented as SJ,
Funny thing is you could (and people did) smoke (and drink, although you had to be a little subtle)
Frank "Myfathercanbeatanyoneinthishouseat-Dominoes"
Josh Blackman: the Frank Drackman of the legal profession.
Get over yourself, Blackman. Googling your article shows that 4 unknown outlets, and a couple of Satanists, quoted your screed. No planetary meltdown happened. Stop being a shameless fame whore
Close, we're both rich, successful, MOTT, have/had 3 Stooges hair styles (he's Larry, I (was) Moe) thousands (apparently) hang on our every word, both cause garments to be rendered,
I'm much better looking though,
Frank
Mengele: garments to be rendered
How does that work?
No need to wear a hare shirt -- everyone makes a silly mistake occasionally. Only the funny ones are worthy of comment.
No, that wasn't my prediction. My prediction is that within ten years, maybe five, abortion will be protected at the federal level in all fifty states.
OB-GYNs are already leaving Idaho, Texas and Louisiana in droves over it. What happens when women in Louisiana simply cannot get OB-GYN care because their doctors all moved to states where they won't be criminals or risk losing their licenses?
In 2020 it was who voted and whom they voted for despite the yammering of the MadKrakenHeads and their comrades.
edit: and in 2016 as well.
For him, what isn't?
There are reasons for Doctors to leave Louisiana and Idaho (They're Louisiana and Idaho, for starters) but not being able to kill babies isn't one of them.
Doctors leaving Texas?? maybe individual ones, but Peoples are moving to Texas by the hundreds of thousands every month.
And some are even Amurican Citizens (rim shot)
Frank
How is it supposed to happen at the federal level? Dobbs declared it to be a state matter, it's actually none of the federal government's business one way or the other.
Do you see the Dobbs majority, 6-3, being replaced that soon?
The only news I can find about Idaho says that one small town (Sandpoint, population 9000) is closing the pediatric ward of its only hospital (Bonner General Hospital) because it doesn't have enough patients (births, or pediatric care) to afford to keep it open. Not a single mention of OBGYNs "leaving in droves".
CNN and The Guardian cite this as well:
The NYT did cite a poll that said that many OBGYNs would consider leaving their state over abortion bans, but did not state that they were doing so.
Can you provide your sources for your claim that "OB-GYNs are already leaving Idaho, Texas and Louisiana in droves over it"?
So does Senescent Joe