The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Thomas Long Ago Explained His Perspective On Disclosure Laws
Another day, another report on Justice Thomas. Today, ProPublica revealed that Harlan Crow paid the private-school tuition of Mark Martin, Justice Thomas's grand-nephew. And Thomas failed to disclose those payments. 5 U.S.C. § 13101(2) only requires disclosures for a gift to a "son, daughter, stepson or stepdaughter." Justice Thomas was not required to disclose any gifts concerning his grand nephew--even assuming the payments were gifts. ProPublica acknowledges this statute halfway through the story:
Justices also must report many gifts to their spouses and dependent children. The law's definition of dependent child is narrow, however, and likely would not apply to Martin since Thomas was his legal guardian, not his parent. The best case for not disclosing Crow's tuition payments would be to argue the gifts were to Martin, not Thomas, experts said.
But then ProPublica turns to the regular stable of experts. They say that in fact, these tuition payments were actually gifts to Thomas personally, which he had to disclose. And even if Thomas followed the statute, and was not required to disclose the payments, more disclosure is better.
Mark Paoletta, a close confidant of the Thomases, provides the background of the tuition payments:
Harlan Crow's tuition payments made directly to these schools on behalf of Justice Thomas's great nephew did not constitute a reportable gift. Justice Thomas was not required to disclose the tuition payments made directly to Randolph Macon and the Georgia school on behalf of his great nephew because the definition of a "dependent child" under the Ethics in Government Act (5 U.S.C. 13101 (2)) does not include a "great nephew." It is limited to a "son, daughter, stepson or stepdaughter." Justice Thomas never asked Harlan Crow to pay for his great nephew's tuition. And neither Harlan Crow, nor his company, had any business before the Supreme Court.
Still, it seems that in 2002, Thomas disclosed a gift of $5,000 that was used to defray Martin's education. That money was placed in a trust for Martin's benefit. And there is some other evidence that Thomas is inconsistent with regard to his disclosures. For example, Thomas initially disclosed some travel with Crow, but stopped after the Los Angeles Times reported on it.
I think we can draw a general sense of how Justice Thomas approaches ethics rules: Justice Thomas discloses what he is required to disclose, but declines to disclose optional information that would allow critics to attack him, his family, and his friends. Thomas's apparent goal is not to shield any actual or apparent conflicts of interest. Despite the media's best efforts, there have been no reports that Crow transacted actual business before the Supreme Court. His goal seems to be to protect his privacy from critics that have been trying to destroy him for more three decades.
Consider Justice Thomas's concurrences from Citizens United and Doe v. Reed in this light. He intrinsically views disclosure laws as difficult to justify--whatever benefit disclosure provides are vastly outweighed by the intrusion into people's private spheres. In both cases, Thomas focused on the attempts to expose those who supported Prop 8 (the term "dox" did not exist at the time). In Thomas's view, disclosure enables retaliation for constitutionally-protected activity. He wrote in Citizens United:
Disclaimer and disclosure requirements enable private citizens and elected officials to implement political strategies specifically calculated to curtail campaign-related activity and prevent the lawful, peaceful exercise of First Amendment rights.
And in Doe v. Reed:
So too does the strength of a signer's First Amendment interest. The First Amendment rights at issue here are associational rights, and a long, unbroken line of this Court's precedents holds that privacy of association is protected under the First Amendment. The loss of associational privacy that comes with disclosing referendum petitions to the general public under the PRA constitutes the same harm as to each signer of each referendum, regardless of the topic
I suspect Thomas believes these principles, quite personally, and they affect how he chooses to complete his disclosure forms. Every disclosure Thomas makes about Crow, and others, will invariably lead to more attacks on Thomas, and those friends. Thomas has no interest in going above-and-beyond to give his critics further ammunition. Thomas hews to the letter of the law, but does not provide more.
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His views on disclosure are in the context of political candidates and free speech. They don’t seem to apply to someone already in a lifetime appointment, except as a shield against impeachment.
Nonsense. His views on none-of-your-business ought in no obvious way be limited to political candidates or free speech issues.
The situations are very different. Thomas has a very significant barrier to being canceled that most people lack. The probability of impeachment even if he engaged in some wrongdoing would be very low, given that the GOP would be loathe to create a SCOTUS vacancy while Biden was President.
Whereas these cases implicate being able to effectively exercise a constitutional right, any desire by Thomas to conceal his financial affairs would involve a level of thin-skinnedness that would be very surprising after decades as a justice.
Not seeing tha anything you just said has any bearing on Thomas taking the attitude that none-of-your-business means what it says and not what captcrisis imagines out of his ass it ought to mean.
Your point of view is invalid. It is not normal for adults to pay the expenses of unrelated adults over a period of years.
When it comes to Supreme Court justices, this unusual behavior shouldn't be allowed.
That you DGAF isn't actually a plus. And really really hating Dems isn't a substitute for actual logic.
Check out the big logic brain on Welker!
Q.E.D, modus ponens, and stuff like that.
Logic is not used much in this comments. It is mostly emotion and "go team". You nailed it, of course. Nice work!
David Welker says:
"It is not normal for adults to pay the expenses of unrelated adults over a period of years."
That's absolute nonsense. Paying the expenses of unrelated adults is called charity. It has been going on for centuries and centuries.
My father received medical care a child from a very generous and charitable doctor in his neighborhood in Manhattan. No relation, and the doctor not only performed his specialty pro bono, but he paid the hospital as well.
Are you not familiar with the concept of scholarships? This is paying the expenses of unrelated adults, and many scholarships are endowed by individuals.
Wow.
I am sure that Josh would extend the same good faith and grace if this were Justice Sotomayor and George Soros we were talking about!
What a joke of a post.
Feel free to provide a counter example where he’s said Sotomayor ought to have reported anything she was not required to report and I’ll have to agree that you have a point.
Otherwise YOU are the joke.
Wow, Hypothetical on Hypothetical Sex, the best!!!!!!!!!
What of a joke of a post to a post
Never played competitive sports, been in a fist fight, or played chess I'm guessing,
The other guy will slap you "Up Side Da Haid" (Ebonics for "On the side of your head") if you have such a piss poor performance
Frank
Great comment. Indeed, what if the billionaire was George Soros?
This has to be the weakest, most sycophantic post of Blackman's career. I weep for his students. Exactly what crimes or norm does he actively teach them to ignore?
Soros is free to pay the tuition of Lefty justices’ grand nephews, too. Has anyone said otherwise?
You basically don’t care much about corruption by either side, is what you are saying. You are consistently pro-appearance of corruption if not actually pro-corruption.
You are consistent. But also consistently wrong.
I don’t think Soros should pay any expenses that may benefit a Supreme Court justice.
I’m unconcerned about “appearance of corruption” when all it amounts to is evidence for bias and partisanship that is anyway unquestionable.
Fortas was on the pad and asked LBJ for a pardon of the crook who had put him on the pad. Show me quid pro quo that’s remotely similar and I’ll pay more attention. But all I see is Thomas opining like Thomas, and THAT is what Lefly doesn’t like. So. Lefty can go pound sand.
And if Soros throws a party for Sotomayor nd all she does is continue to be the lousy Justice that comes so naturally to her why should I call that “the appearance of corruption” when it’s just “birds of a feather”?
Your partisan blinders are definitely in play here.
Sotomayor has taken a multi-million dollar book deal from a party while simultaneously not feeling the need to recuse herself from cases the party had before the court.
I don't remember Josh mentioning it before today...if he even has today.
Josh - you're an incompetent idiot, or a cynical liar. You know this isn't even an honest attempt at a summary.
Private jet travel is not "personal hospitality" and should have been disclosed. Property transactions above a de minimis threshold should have been disclosed whether or not Thomas "profited" from them. And defending the non-disclosure of the tuition payments on a legal technicality rather stupidly treats the matter as just one where we're upset about Thomas's disclosure practices.
No, Josh, it's the corruption, stupid.
Whether or not a "great nephew" with whom Thomas has a close relationship is a "son, daughter, stepson or stepdaughter" is not the point. The point is whether Thomas has a sufficient interest in the relative's well-being that a gift to the relative is sufficient to raise questions about whether it's an indirect benefit to Thomas himself. I think anyone familiar with legal fiduciary duties would see an obvious conflict. That you're working so hard to not see it, shows how much of a hack you are, Josh.
And - to this drumbeat about Crow not actually having business before the Court. Again, is this what the controversy is about? No. It's about a rich conservative donor trying to push the law in a direction that favors his political and private interests. It's not about him trying to buy a particular result in a particular case, and it never has been. That's a kind of influence over the Court that no one should have, and if our justices won't follow ethical standards to protect them from that kind of influence, rules will have to be imposed upon them.
RE: "Josh – you’re an incompetent idiot, or a cynical liar. "
There's an error here: the word "or".
"The point is whether Thomas has a sufficient interest in the relative’s well-being that a gift to the relative is sufficient to raise questions about whether it’s an indirect benefit to Thomas himself."
This is the same argument many people are making about Hunter Biden. What we can do about it with respect to the SCOTUS Justices might be limited, but we can strive to avoid the problem as it relates to Biden by voting against him.
Yeah, and then they switch your votes to him, but don't talk about it, or you're a Conspiracy nut.
This is the same argument many people are making about Hunter Biden. What we can do about it with respect to the SCOTUS Justices might be limited, but we can strive to avoid the problem as it relates to Biden by voting against him.
Umm, not remotely.
The major, critical difference is who's seeking (and obtaining) the graft.
Hunter Biden, an adult, is the going around trying to cash in on his dad's name. There zero evidence that Joe Biden (the official) has any part of it and it's far from clear he could get Hunter to stop if he wanted to.
Clarence Thomas on the other hand is the one taking the gifts
With Clarence Thomas he has the relationship with Crow and he's the one mediating the benefit exchanges.
I mean the nephew wasn't even aware Crow was paying for the tuition!
“There is zero evidence that Joe Biden… has any part of it….”
Nonsense.
This is the same argument many people are making about Hunter Biden.
No, this is not the argument people are making.
This is the same argument many people are making about Hunter Biden.
Thomas was the kid's legal guardian, responsible for his education. Every dollar Crow spent on tuition was a dollar Thomas saved. Did Hunter Biden's Burisma compensation reduce any amounts Joe Biden would otherwise have been legally obligated to pay?
Hunter turned around and paid it to Joe in cash, as rent and such he otherwise couldn’t have afforded.
Anyway, the idea that Joe was legally not required to keep Hunter from living in a dumpster is a pathetic irrelevance.
Hunter did not pay any rent to Joe. This was a confused story that the person for the right wing outlet that covered the story admitted later was a misinterpretation of a form.
Thomas was the kid’s legal guardian, responsible for his education.
Huh? He’s not required to send the kid to a private school. Every kid in America is entitled to a free education. Now, maybe Clarence Thomas would have paid for his grandnephew's education, just like maybe Joe Biden would have given his kid money to live on if others didn't. It's the same situation.
As the parent of kids in private school, I assure you that once you sign up your kid to enroll there, you are in fact contractually obligated to pay the tuition, whether you send the kid there or not.
Thomas was not the parent of a kid in a private school.
Who the fuck cares if he was the U.N. Secretary General or a random street urchin? Private school enrollment is a business transaction. it is not governed by your IANAL But I Googled Something About Guardianship So Now I’m An Expert legal theories. It is a contract. The kid does not sign the contract enrolling the kid in the school. The adult does. Then the adult is legally obligated to pay it. Clarence Thomas enrolled the kid in the school. Clarence Thomas had to pay it.
Maybe you should google something about legal guardianship.
He doesn't necessarily have to pay it himself, he can use the kid's estate to pay it, or seek to have a court order the parent to pay it.
A parent can also use the kid's funds to pay it. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
And if someone gave the kid a gift for that purpose, it would be reportable. But that's not true with a ward.
Funny people are getting all hot and bothered about this when Ginsberg and Kagan have had over 100 flights on private planes paid for by rich people with nary a peep out of those outraged now. Seems rather picky about who someone is angry at.
I mean, Thomas is the one who failed to report any of this. That adds some formality to the issues. Plus, it's one weird dude doing all this, which weaves a more interesting story.
But yeah, we need to think about payments to Justices for stuff. If you notice, most of the folks on the left are saying that.
Nah, most of Lefty are just whining about Thomas.
The Left merely wishes to complete the high-tech lynching they attempted years ago at Justice Thomas' confirmation.
Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm a proud "lefty" as you call us, and this is what I wrote earlier today (and this was written before we knew about the private school tuition):
"I don’t care which president nominated you for the Supreme Court, and I don’t care what your legal philosophy and political leanings are. What I care about is that you don’t conduct yourself in a way that makes us ordinary people wonder about your behavior, your objectivity, and your allegiances.
"To me the standard of behavior is simple. If someone wants you to teach or speak somewhere – whether it’s inside the U.S. or someplace a little more exotic, pay for you own travel expenses. If you can’t afford to, stay home. If someone offers you trips on yachts and private jets, say no or prove that you paid your host a fair market price for the trips. Otherwise, the alarm bells of impropriety begin to go off.
"Something seems to happen to some of those elevated to Supreme Court; they seem to quickly begin to feel as if they’re entitled to special treatment. I’ve said it before about the justices: live within your means, pay your own way, and stop thinking you’re better than the rest of us."
In the middle of the Lefty media feeding frenzy I’m not seeing any non-Thomas Justices named in all that, so I call bullshit on the pretense of even-handedness.
There are none so blind as those that won't see.
Applies perfectly to your ability at self-deception.
Name the (D) Justices and what they’ve done wrong or be ignored.
Ginsberg and Kagan have had over 100 flights on private planes paid for by rich people with nary a peep out of those outraged now
As long as we're whatabouting dead SCOTUS Justices, how come nobody ever complains about Harlan Fiske Stone and Teapot Dome? Hypocrites!
Kagan is dead?
Justice Kagan died? Wow. I didn't know that.
She led an amazing life.
This may be true. But it is obvious by now that both sides are extremely hypocritical. So, it is not a particularly interesting observation.
The reason we should reduce the possibility of corruption on the Court is not to benefit either the left or the right, but to benefit the American people more broadly.
I didn’t think that the “all politicians lie” defense was a good defense for Bill Clinton decades ago either. We know both sides are hypocritical. If anything, that hypocrisy is an argument for higher standards, not lower ones. The idea that we can’t expect anything from anyone because the other side is hypocritical logically leads to the conclusion that we shouldn’t have any standards at all.
1) Ginsburg is dead, so I really don't think there are any ethical issues there.
2) Did Ginsburg and/or Kagan conceal, or disclose, these flights?
The quote is in fact an accurate summary of what appears to be Thomas’ position, and your saying it is not is baseless balderdash.
And PRIVATE jet travel does indeed qualify as personal hospitality. As are the boat trips and stays at Crow’s residences. YOU declaring otherwise is weightless.
I know English isn't your first language, but hospitality refers to food and lodging, not travel.
Yes, stays at Crow's residence would be personal hospitality. But stays at businesses would not be.
No it's utterly ridiculous to discuss this because there is zero evidence it influenced him.
And since nobody cared about other justices doing worse, it's clear this isn't about stopping corruption but attacking someone for their beliefs.
What would that evidence look like, a written contract with a quid pro quo spelled out? By your logic, it's perfectly fine for government officials and judges to accept all the money they want, as long as there is "no evidence it influenced them." Doesn't seem like a great recipe to fight corruption.
This is a great point. People who are corrupted don’t usually create contracts whose terms explicitly lay out the corruption.
Which is precisely why that's about what is required, in order to outlaw it, under the doctrine the Court is currently developing. When they're done locking us into a deathloop of unwanted pregnancies and school shootings, they'll get back to greasing the wheels of political corruption.
This isn’t remotely hard, and doesn’t require a contract. Evidence would be Thomas ruling for Crow in a way inconsistent with his established pattern of opinions. What have you got?
Dude, easy on the ad hominem. It makes one assume you have a weak argument.
Zero, absolutely zero, of my comment constitutes an "ad hominem." Learn what the damn term means.
If I wanted to engage in an "ad hominem," I'd say something like, "Who gives a shit what a law professor with a degree from a sort-of law school who now teaches at a fourth-tier, bottom-scraping law school (when he's not too busy smearing sputum across the pages of Newsweek or providing quotes to moronic journalists) has to say about it?"
Me, I've just called him a hack.
Thomas has ton's of money. Why would he allow anyone to pay the school fees of his children?
Biden REALLY has tons of money. Why does he extract lots more from Hunter in “rent”?
This is beyond parody. A billionaire giving gifts like that to Thomas is the same as something that didn't actually happen?
This isn't complicated.
If Thomas's mail clerk received the same kinds of gifts, everyone --including Thomas-- would agree that the mail clerk needs to disclose.
That Thomas is held to a lower standard then his mail clerk is a travesty, regardless of legal requirements.
"everyone –including Thomas– would agree that the mail clerk needs to disclose"
Why would he, or we, agree with that? Gifts to a grand-nephew are not covered for the mail clerk either.
No. I heard an excellent podcast this week explaining the disclosure forms. Apparently SCOTUS has a team of lawyers that help them file and when the lawyers change so do their opinion on what needs to be disclosed and what doesn't. All Justices amend disclosures including the newest Affirmative Action Judge as they got differing opinions from different lawyers.
The bigger problem is this campaign of smears and intimidation against sitting SCOTUS members, their family and friends.
This wasn't like some issue there could be a different opinion about, this was pretty clearly a required disclosure. Did you read the OP?
the newest Affirmative Action Judge
Oh, so you're just another boring racist on reason.com.
Oh, so you’re just another boring racist on reason.com.
They have a deep bench.
You’re going to contend that NOTICING that the pick Biden promised would be a Black Woman is an “affirmative action” hire is “racist”?
FWIW, Thomas was an “affirmative action” hire, too. That he turned out to be a GOOD Justice is merely proof that not every pick need be as bad as the criteria for making it.
You've highlighted how affirmative action tars all minorities, whether beneficiaries of AA or not.
All minorities are not presumptively the beneficiaries of AA, so, no.
But, yes, any minority who DID presumptively benefit from AA deserves extra skepticism.
Huh? As the OP says, it was pretty clearly not a required disclosure.
Remember the rule about "clearly."
Even if you actually think that it's reasonable to treat a ward as different than a child for these purposes, you'd have to consider that a payment made that satisfy's the guardian's financial obligations is not a gift to the guardian.
The statute explicitly treats a ward as different than a child for these purposes. As does family law in general.
The guardian is entitled to make expenditures from the estate of the ward for such purposes. That doesn't mean that the resources of the ward are the same as the resources of the guardian.
Yes it isn't complicated but not for the reasons you said.
If a mail clerk did this people would say "who cares?" But since it's a black conservative who they hate, they do care. It's racist and hateful and has nothing to do with stopping corruption.
Maybe it's because the mail clerk isn't in a position to grant legal boons to their benefactor in the same way a supreme court justice, of any color, is able to do.
Uh, isn't the precise complaint that he didn't hew to the letter of the law?
The complaint seems to be that Thomas hewed to the letter of the law but some people don't like that law so they claim that Thomas didn't hew to it.
Rather like if I didn't (and I don't) believe the mortgage interest tax deduction should exist and them claimed that someone broke tax law because they took the deduction. Of course I wouldn't make such a claim because I'm sane.
How did he follow the letter of the law?
He reported what was required and didn't report what wasn't required. Not hard!
…well, he didn’t report a real estate transaction in at least one of the two places on the form where he ought to have reported it, but he’s allowed to amend the form and will do so. No ethical vio is implicated, so no harm no foul.
A Supreme Court justice isn't just supposed to actually not break the law. He is also supposed to not appear to be breaking the law. When Crow offered to pay for his kid's tuition, and to buy his mother's house, and to fly him around the world, his answer should have been: "No thank you; I have to maintain a certain image." You know, like Perry Mason would have done.
"his kid’s tuition"
It wasn't his "kid", it was a grand-nephew.
and Thomas was his legal guardian.
He also “raised him like a son” (his words, not mine)
So Batman didn't help Robin out?
He didn't adopt him.
So?
Is "legal ward" a "son, daughter, stepson or stepdaughter" and hence covered by the statute?
Exactly. Martin was living with Thomas. Also, Thomas is on record as saying he was raising Martin as if the kid was his own son. Saying that disclosure was not required because Martin did not meet the disclosure statute's definition of "dependent" is a legal dodge that does nothing to address the appearance of impropriety.
"legal dodge"
Or compliance with the law.
I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, but is he compliant? If Crow pays the tuition that Justice Thomas would otherwise be required to pay, isn't this the same as a monetary gift to the Justice? And don't such gifts require disclosure, if they are over a certain amount?
No. Read the article.
Thomas wouldn't be required to pay private school tuition for a legal guardian.
Especially if a billionaire paid it for him.
And even if the billionaire didn't.
But he did.
He really would be. Who do you think the school comes after if the tuition bill isn't paid?
The parents or the estate of the ward.
Even if Thomas put himself on the hook in case those with primary responsibility couldn't pay, that doesn't make payment a gift to Thomas.
Yeah, it actually does.
Wrong. The person who signed the enrollment contract.
And if the person who signed the contract is the legal guardian, he can pay for it from the estate of the ward. Or seek to have the parents pay.
He can also pay for it by robbing a bank or by busking in a Metro station; the school doesn't care where he gets the money from. But the school is getting it from him. If he doesn't pay, the judgment from the resulting lawsuit¹ will be entered against him. It will be a ding on his credit report.
(That's setting aside the stupidity of pretending that the kid or the kid's parents had money.)
¹Assuming a school were bold enough to sue a sitting Supreme Court justice, anyway.
Thank you for this exchange, very interesting. As I suspected, focusing on the specific rules about dependent children is a bit of a red herring. It doesn't really let Justice Thomas off the hook here.
"Wrong. The person who signed the enrollment contract."
It would be nice if you guys could get your arguments straight. Is he obligated to pay it because he's a legal guardian, or because he'd contractually obligated (a proposition for which you've provided no evidence).
Again, as the legal guardian he doesn't have primary responsibility to pay, the kid and the parents do. You seem to be under the impression that being a legal guardian carries the same obligations as a parent, and it doesn't.
If DN is correct that Thomas personally signed a contract (I’m not aware either way), then his and my arguments are both correct (and DN’s would be the more obvious one).
You might not want to hold up a flashing neon sign that says, "I lack common sense and a basic understanding of how common economic transactions work."
One does not just show up to a private school one day and start attending classes. First is the application process. Assuming that the kid is admitted, the school sends an enrollment contract. (An entire admissions package, actually.) It sets forth the terms and conditions. It is a contract. Like all contracts, someone has to sign it. For obvious reasons, schools do not accept contracts signed by minors. Nor do they accept contracts where the signatory says, "Actually, I am not agreeing to pay. I'll try to get the money from someone, but if I can't, tough luck."
,
If what he did doesn't violate the law - and it doesn't - how on earth would he "appear to be breaking the law"? Except perhaps to people like you, who are too dumb to understand the relevant statutes.
Strange. When Kagan, Sotomayor, Ginsberg and Jackson are or have been flown around on private jets I didn't see many outraged posts by anyone. Funny how everyone is so in hysterics over Thomas. Wouldn't have anything to do with his Constitution based Opinions would it?
Did they report the flights?
Thomas didn’t “appear to be breaking the law” except in the eyes of partisans who can go pound sand.
"I think we can draw a general sense of how Justice Thomas approaches ethics rules: Justice Thomas discloses what he is required to disclose, but declines to disclose optional information that would allow critics to attack him, his family, and his friends. "
Well, Professor Blackman, if Justice Thomas disclosed everything he was required to disclose, then he has no need to amend his prior filings, right? What shall we make of it if he does file such amendments in the coming weeks, and with lots of new disclosures?
Everybody amend disclosures.
Bet he doesn't amend it for the tuition though, because it was not required to be disclosed. The link to the statute is right there, read it.
If Justice Thomas signed the contract with the school, he was obligated to make the tuition payments (standard for any private school contract). If Crow paid the school money to relieve Justice Thomas of such a contractual obligation, that is a gift to Justice Thomas that was required to be reported.
Justice Thomas was the kid's legal guardian at the time. I'd be surprised if he hadn't signed the school's contract and committed himself to pay the tuition.
Nice try, no sale.
So if you sign a contract for a boarding school for a minor whom do you expect to pay the tuition?
It appears that at some point in Martin’s childhood, Thomas was paying for private school himself. Martin told ProPublica that Thomas sold his Corvette — “his most prized car” — to pay for a year of tuition, although he didn’t remember when that occurred.
Looks like that gift to not-Thomas took a lot of fiscal pressure off of Thomas.
If. I sign a contract to pay my grand nephews tuition I expect I will have to pay it. But if someone gives my grand nephew a gift which pays that tuition then I won’t have to and it’s still a gift to my grand nephew and not to me. No one is questioning that Crow making a hobby out of promoting and supporting Thomas has made Thomas’ life easier. It’s the assertions that that is illegal or has at any time constituted a conflict of interest that are nonsense.
It is not normal for friends to pay the tuition of relatives. I wouldn’t do that for any of my friends. I would say to them, well, I guess your relative has to go to public school like I did if you can’t or don’t want to pay tuition.
I think you aren’t being objective.
The purchase of the house was already concerning, but this is all the more blatant.
I’m being perfectly objective. That you imagine I’ve ever suggested that Crow is a “normal friend” of Thomas strongly suggests that you are having great difficulty understanding anything I’ve written. He’s a billionaire and promoting and supporting and being patron to Thomas is a hobby of his. And it’s been perfectly OK, as far as I can tell. No COI at all.
'and being patron to Thomas'
Sure, that's ok. In Renaissance Italy.
But if someone gives my grand nephew a gift which pays that tuition then I won’t have to and it’s still a gift to my grand nephew and not to me.
A gift for which the grand nephew derives zero benefit (the tuition was being paid regardless)?
That's still a gift for you.
The only time it's a gift to the grand nephew is if the education wouldn't have been available without the gift. But there's absolutely zero indication that is the case.
But here's the real kicker, the nephew wasn't even aware of the gift. Thomas adopted the kid to give him a good upbringing, yet when someone gave the child a gift of over $100k he never even bothered to tell the child so that he could say "thank you Mr Crow"?
There's only one reason he didn't tell his nephew about "the gift". Because Thomas never thought of it as a gift to his nephew, it was a gift to Thomas.
No one is questioning that Crow making a hobby out of promoting and supporting Thomas has made Thomas’ life easier. It’s the assertions that that is illegal or has at any time constituted a conflict of interest that are nonsense.
Well there's a lot of cases where he seems to have ignored reporting requirements, which depending on the teeth on those rules could be illegal.
As for "conflict of interest" I think it's pretty obvious. Crow has made it a project to move the courts sharply to the right, and he's "befriended" a Supreme Court Justice redirected hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash and other benefits to that justice. It's pretty clear that the continuation of this friendship is based on Thomas being a reliably Conservative justice.
That kind of benefit is a strong reason for Thomas to stay conservative. Most Conservative Justices moderate over time, Thomas seems to be an exception to that trend. Is that because that's just who he is, or because he felt pressured to stay Conservative to keep Crow's friendship?
> I suspect Thomas believes these principles, quite personally, and they affect how he chooses to complete his disclosure forms.
Lol, isn't the criticism that liberal jurists import personal beliefs onto cases? So why is it alright that Justice Thomas does it?
Because filling out a financial disclosure form isn't a case?
No, the criticism isn’t that liberal jurists have personal beliefs, it’s that their beliefs are not based on the law. Whereas Thomas’ beliefs about what he is required to file are generally congruent with the law (the amount and capital gain on the sale of his mother’s house being a mistake, but one without ethical implications).
Err on the side of caution to avoid signs of impropriety.
That's the first rule of any kind of reporting requirement.
Why does Thomas take the opposite position? Perhaps it's some judicial philosophy. But more likely he realizes his relationship with Crow looks extremely bad so he tries to conceal it as much as possible (and that desire for secrecy influences his judicial philosophy).
I'll care about Thomas' gifts when the Democrats start enforcing the "norms" against Lois Frankel, Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats who continually front run the stock market using information they learned as Congressmen.
Oh, the old “because hypocrisy exists, there should be no rules for anyone” line of reasoning.
Like if we followed this to its logical conclusion, it would probably be legal for members of Congress to commit murder. There is really no limit to how far our standards could sink if mere hypocrisy by the “other side” results in the abandonment of standards.
But here is a hint. Can you think of anyone who benefits from less corruption besides the “other side.”
I am increasingly convinced that partisans on both sides only have half-functioning brains. They really think that “getting” the other side and not “being got” by the other side is all that matters. It is as if the whole world outside of partisan politics doesn’t even exist.
Because you traitorous pieces of shit fairy leftists are NEVER wiling to enforce the rules against your side. Why should we, and ONLY we?
Curious phrasing: "Justice Thomas never asked Harlan Crow to pay for his great nephew's tuition." Interesting framing here. Thomas' great nephew is attending some private school. Thomas didn't ask Crow to pay the tuition. But Crow surely offered to Thomas to pay it and Thomas didn't say no. Otherwise how would Crow know Thomas didn't already pay it or conversely how did Thomas know he didn't need to pay? That type of recurring payment every semester or quarter or whatever doesn't happen in a vacuum.
It's not like Thomas stopped receiving a bill from the school and the kid kept on going semester after semester and Thomas didn't know *why* he wasn't getting any bills for tuition. Or didn't ask any questions or contact the school.
Also, what difference does it make if Thomas did ask Crow to pay it vs Crow offering to pay it and Thomas not declining the offer? At the end of the day, Crow paid the tuition fees and Thomas didn't disclose it. Crow is all up in Thomas' life (paying for mother's home, paying the nephews tuition, the luxury vacations, etc...) and taken in isolation each of these is maybe no big deal (maybe the luxury vacations would be given their estimated value)...but putting them all together it paints a very sordid picture and leads to only one conclusion: Harlan Crow is having an affair with Justice Thomas.
Don’t project your personal perversions onto the behavior of others.
The category of people who get these types of gifts are mistresses. Ipso facto... Harlan is fucking somebody and its not likely to be Ginni.
Don't hate me for speaking this truth into existence.
As I believe I and others have mentioned: if a local car dealer/real estate developer was paying for the tuition of a judge’s relative we’d all know it was an influencing operation even if they didn’t have any cases directly in front of them.
You “know” all sorts of convenient shit.
Thomas isn’t a judge, and Crow isn’t a local car dealer. Thomas is one of Crow’s hobbies, and the nice thing about being a billionaire is that you can afford to have some. And they don’t need to pay any practical dividends.
Blackman : “Thomas has no interest in going above-and-beyond to give his critics further ammunition”
Does anyone really believe this? There’s a much simpler explanation that more readily survives the smell test: If Justice Thomas disclosed the amount of payments, gifts and benefits he received from Crow, the resulting publicity would make it hard for him to keep pulling in that take.
Thomas wanted the cash, so secrecy was essential. That’s the only “principle” involved here.
Except Thomas’ relationship with Crow has been known for years.
And it hasn’t been hard at all for him to keep it up. Noir will it be going forward.
Or hasn’t anybody pointed out to you that Lefty is going to have to continue to pound sand to no effect except maybe goosing its fund-raising letters? Thomas isn’t going anywhere.
Gandydancer : “Except Thomas’ relationship with Crow has been known for years”
I think we have a winner of the Obvious Weaseling of the Year Award. Yes, people have known Thomas had a thing with Crow. But people hadn’t known all the ways Crow funneled money to Thomas until the past weeks. That’s why it’s such bizarre news. The current tally runs to hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts and benefits (on top of the half-million plus channeled to Ginni alone).
That’s what Thomas decided to hide in 2004, after the Los Angeles Times had the temerity to actually read Thomas’ disclosure form. The Justice would double-down on the grift – more and more and more – but he just stopped reporting it. He knew the gravy train would end if publicly exposed.
And sorry to disabuse you, but it has ended. I don’t doubt Thomas will want to stay on the dole, both out of bloody-mindedness and because the man obviously likes free money. After all, he was willing to sell himself to some rich guy who wanted a Supreme Court Justice as a pet, which shows an extreme hunger for cash. But I think Roberts will have a real problem if Thomas flaunts that transaction in the future. And it’s all out of the shadows now.
You’re only abusing your own credibility when you imagine Roberts stopping Thomas from continuing to accept Crow’s hospitality and other efforts (such as the $170k or so given to Yale Law School to pay for Thomas’ portrait, funding the Thomas museum to be founded in Savannah, etc.) Not within his power, even if he wanted to.
That Clarence Crow (I’m sorry, Harley is totally his daddy) is a corrupt piece of shit is abundantly obvious. That justice for anyone that doesn’t have a property deal going with an ass on the bench is a matter of appealing to their ideology is a given.
That the “liberals” are defending the obvious crooks demonstrates the systemic corruption.
The question is what to do about these whores.
Until some proper legislation can fix it, unfortunately not much than publicizing these venal little shits’ behavior far and wide. The petty little authoritarian ponces are just trash, and everyone should know that.
And Mr. Manager's cheerleading is just hilarious. I mean, I'm sure he needs to do that to stay in the good graces of the courtly hangers-on various Leo^2 toadies, etc. But damn, if this weak tea is the best he can do, the FedSoc insurgents really need to buy some better propagandists.
So sad to be you, wishing so hard for what you’re not going to get.
Aren’t you a little embarrassed to attach your name to this nonsense, Professor? Immediately following your smirk about Pro Publica’s “regular stable of experts” you provide a rebuttal by “a close confidant of the Thomases.” How would you grade one of your students who made that kind of argument? All your attempts to justify Thomas’ behavior aside, you (and he) are missing the point. This is about actions that give a clear, unmistakable appearance of impropriety. Letting someone else pay the way for Thomas and his relatives doesn’t pass the smell test, whether it actually violates a statute or not. He needs to accept that he is not entitled to special treatment just because he has a fancy office, a staff of assistants and clerks, and a lifetime job. To put it simply, he needs to live within his means. Shame on Thomas and shame on you for being his apologist.
I think that question answers itself.
Depends on how many South Texas College of Law needs to flunk in order to keep its accreditation.
Aren’t you a little embarrassed to attach your name to this nonsense, Professor?
You must be new here.
How would you grade one of your students who made that kind of argument?
Given that we're currently in his law school's final exam period, and he's recently been quite prolific on the VC, I'm guessing he doesn't put much thought or effort into that question.
You’d flunk any course I graded if you used terms like “that kind of argument” to refer to a recitation of the law and imagined it refuted by the fact that it came from someone close to Thomas.
Aren't you a little embarrassed to be ejaculating into little boys?
The issue seems to be that Thomas was appointed to the Supreme Court when he was too young and hadn’t had time to grift money through normal GOP channels such plum executive branch appointments that lead to private sector opportunities or or think tanks or trading on influence or getting gullible white trash to donate to various campaigns and causes. The GOP is full of grifters and con men and unethical politicians and so to me this story is dog bites man and not really a news story from the political party that gifted America scum like Lizard Cheney. Lizard Cheney holds the record for woman with the most children serving as a State Department official. I’m sure Lizard Cheney was dragging toddlers onto international flights to Azerbaijan when she was a public servant. 😉
Whereas no one gets rich as a Democrat or relative of same.
Another RepooplicKKKunt with a crush on Lizard Cheney…she’s hawt.
You have serious problems if you think so, but that describes any number of Lefty fucktards.
Why isn’t your conclusion that this is a problem regardless of who does it rather than seeking to make grifting on the GOP side OK just so long as there is grifting on the Dem side?
At what point do we the People just decide both sides are acting like trash, and that isn’t OK?
This is positioned as a reply to B-F, but the sentiment you express doesn’t fit that target.
Both sides ARE trash, but Thomas is not a significant part of that problem.
Just a heads up—if Lizard Cheney uses a black strap-on when she’s doing you up the butthole…that’s cultural appropriation!
Paoletta again.
And a pretty confused argument here. Thomas has a chip on his shoulder, so he did the minimum, which is not what the law says, but also the legal minimum?
More help like this, and Thomas could be in for some trouble.
Proletariat says the law doesn’t cover a grand nephew. That you imagine this observation is going to get Thomas in trouble is a product of your Thomas Derangement Syndrome and nothing more.
Fucking autocorrect.
Help out a non-lawyer here. If the tuition payments were a gift to Martin rather than to Thomas, would Martin have to report the annual amount on an income tax return?
Since gifts are not taxable income, no.
It's not considered taxable income, but there is a gift tax that needs to be paid. Perhaps that is what Mr. Taylor means?
Since the gift tax is paid by the donor, not the recipient, the answer would remain no.
Thanks for the response -- you can probably guess that I have never been the recipient of a gift worth worrying about, or giving a gift of that magnitude for that matter! And apologies for disturbing the flow of exchange here -- I also googled the question and got the same answer from the IRS....
Justice Thomas was not required to disclose any gifts concerning his grand nephew–even assuming the payments were gifts.
[...]
They say that in fact, these tuition payments were actually gifts to Thomas personally, which he had to disclose.
So Blackman's position is that the $100k+ worth of tuition payments to Clarence Thomas's grand nephew, to whom he was legal guardian, were a gift to the nephew and not in anyway to Thomas himself.
Raising the question of whom exactly was supposed to pay the $6k/month tuition fee once Thomas enrolled his nephew (Thomas obviously).
Martin, now in his 30s, told ProPublica he was not aware that Crow paid his tuition.
Wait, so the claim is that this was just a gift to the nephew that Thomas had no personal interest in... and the nephew never even realized he got it!!!
It's so charming to watch people pretend to believe this argument.
Did Paoletta quote the law accurately or not?
Yes.
So he might not have violated that law specifically. But that law is simply emphasizing something that's already true, in most circumstances a gift to a dependent is a gift to the person themselves.
The tuition payment wasn't a gift to the nephew, the nephew didn't even realize that Crow was paying the tuition!
The tuition payment was a gift to Thomas, if it was not paid by Crow it would be paid by Thomas.
FTA:
In 2002, a friend of Thomas’ from the RV community who owned a Florida pest control company, Earl Dixon, offered Thomas $5,000 to help defray the costs of Martin’s education. Thomas’ disclosure of that earlier gift, several experts said, could be viewed as evidence that the justice himself understood he was required to report tuition aid from friends.
“At first, Thomas was worried about the propriety of the donation,” Thomas biographers Merida and Fletcher recounted. “He agreed to accept it if the contribution was deposited directly into a special trust for Mark.”
So Thomas understood he was on the hook for tuition, so when someone tried to give him a gift to help pay for it he redirected the gift to the dependent.
In other words, it was a gift to Thomas.
Nope. It was a gift to the trust, not to Thomas. By your analysis the trust made a gift to Thomas, but that’s not the way it was listed. Thomas thought he ought to list it (and did, as from Dixon) but he was wrong, and got better advice at the time of the Crow gift to his grand nephew, is my guess.
My guess is that you will literally say anything to defend anyone you consider conservative enough.
Yes, but he did not apply it correctly.
Why is that obvious? He's not the kid's parent. Guardians can arrange for kids education without necessarily being financially responsible.
What does whether he's the parent have to do with anything? A legal guardian has the same obligations as a parent.
And, no, he cannot enroll a child in a private school without being financially responsible. Do you think that the child signs the contract?
"A legal guardian has the same obligations as a parent."
Is that true in Virginia? I quickly perused some of the family law statutes but couldn't find anything about a legal guardian's obligation to use personal funds to care for the minor.
Not that I think it's dispositive. If Thomas considered it his obligation anyway, then of course helping him satisfy the obligation is giving him something of value.
It's not true anywhere.
The guardian can recover the cost from the kid's estate, the kid's parents, or sometimes the State itself.
Utterly irrelevant. We're not talking about where Clarence Thomas can get money from to pay it. We're talking about the fact that Clarence Thomas, not the kid's estate, the kid's parents, or the State itself, has a contract with the school.
No, we're talking about whether a tuition payment is a gift to Thomas. Payments by the kid or the parents wouldn't be gifts to Thomas, so I don't know why you think that gifts to the kid or the parents used as payments would be gifts to Thomas.
Between the travel, the mom living rent free in the repaired house in the spruced-up neighborhood, and the nephew’s tuition, how much value in dollar terms was Thomas getting from Crow on a yearly basis? I’d bet more than his salary.
The real question is whether Crow listed Thomas as a dependent on his taxes. You could hardly blame him if he did.
You’d lose. The amounts are small relative to the salary of an Associate Justice.
LOL. Private jet to Bali and a week on a yacht?!? That alone is 200k, easy
Over a half-million was funneled to Ginni alone.
Just for laughs I just looked up round trip business class airfare from dc to Bali. 18-20k PER TICKET. That’s with layovers in Australia and shit!
It’s a bit late in the game for you to still be confusing hospitality with gifts.
Who’s confusing? I’m trying to get a handle on the dollar amount. You are laughably wrong in your assertion above.
Dollar amount OF WHAT?
As far as we know the life estate of the mother was reflected in the price of the Savannah properties, but you want to throw all sorts of nonsense in your pot.
Dollar amount of the annual outlay from crow to the thomases. It’s a lot of bones however you want to characterize things. And yes, I think taking over maintenance on mom’s decrepit house and giving her a life estate counts as a boon to Thomas no matter how you slice it. You are doing a lot of frantic work on this thread and others— why? This is sketchy! It’s ok to say so
Must be because I’m a Russian troll agent-of-Putin, eh?
Crow can be a patron of Thomas as much as he likes It’s the meaningless claim that that’s “sketchy” that is meaningless trash. And I am intolerant of meaningless posing like that.
“You’d lose. The amounts are small relative to the salary of an Associate Justice.“
This is so wrong I don’t even know what to say. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You don’t know what to say because you don’t have any actual argument, just your feels.
Commercial airfare to Bali alone is 20% of his salary. Are you touched? In the head?
Well, we don't really know that at all since Thomas deliberately chose to conceal the entire transaction.
The difficulty with Justice Thomas' claim to follow the letter of the law, but no further, is that there is no letter of the law. The 1991 resolution incorporating the Judicial Rules arguably can't bind future combinations of a collegial court, and even if it could, the requirement to follow these rules when on the Court doesn't emanate from the statute, but from the equitable consensus to follow it, which implies an equitable duty of good faith and attention to the spirit of the rules. If a multibillionaire gives someone's distant kin a million dollars, a reasonable person might question whether the gift might tip the feather-scale in chambers from time to time.
Mr. D.
So Thomas WASN’T required by the letter of the law to disclose the sale of the Savannah properties?
Correct. No black-letter law is in play. One merely has to do the right thing.
Mr. D.
“Consider Justice Thomas’s concurrences from Citizens United and Doe v. Reed in this light…I suspect Thomas believes these principles, quite personally, and they affect how he chooses to complete his disclosure forms.”
At a glance, those cases pertain to disclosure requirements imposed upon the general public, not (high-ranking) public officials.
More to the point, Blackman seems to be suggesting that Thomas is excused from any wrongdoing based on (what Blackman speculates are) Thomas’s personal beliefs about what the law should be. But we generally don’t consider “I disagreed with the law” to be an excuse. Thomas doesn’t have any extra power in this regard.
“Thomas has no interest in going above-and-beyond to give his critics further ammunition. Thomas hews to the letter of the law, but does not provide more.”
This is contradicted by Blackman’s earlier acknowledgment that Thomas has been “inconsistent” in his disclosure of another, similar payment of $5,000. I suppose Blackman is defending Thomas’s decision to omit a payment of much greater amount, because this (moreso than the $5,000 payment) will “give his critics further ammunition.”
Financial conduct that “give[s] his critics . . . ammunition” sounds pretty much like activity that gives *at least* the appearance of corruption.
No, it doesn’t.
And his reporting what he didn’t have to report (the $5k) implies what, exactly?
At least in this case, it’s certainly another name for “appearance of corruption.” The “ammunition” is potent here precisely because it certainly looks corrupt when someone pays a $100K+ expense that a high-ranking official would otherwise be liable for.
(For that matter, upon reviewing the other comments here, I'm uncertain how this wasn’t a violation of the letter of the law, too. If a person has guardianship over a minor dependent and would incur liability for the minor’s tuition, isn’t paying that tuition a gift to the guardian?)
The fact that Thomas reported the $5K in the past seems to indicate that he understood it was better practice to disclose when a third party paid his ward’s tuition. Either he had a subsequent change in his understanding of the law that coincided with receiving a much, much larger payment…or he decided that the much much larger payment was so embarrassing that he’d just prefer not to disclose it.
Again, a gift to the ward is not a gift to the guardian, even if it relieves the guardian of an expense.
Maybe Thomas reported the $5k without asking about it, then asked about the larger amount and was told it didn’t have to be reported. That you’d prefer to imagine other scenarios is neither here nor there.
"Again, a gift to the ward is not a gift to the guardian, even if it relieves the guardian of an expense."
But we're at least in agreement that "reliving the guardian of an [$100K+] expense" has the appearance of corruption, right?
Anyway, if it "relieves the guardian of an expense," how is it *not* a gift to him? Sure, it was also a gift to the ward. Why can't it be both? I am not an expert in the ethics laws so I'm open to being persuaded, but "a gift can only exclusively be to one person" certainly doesn't sound right.
"Maybe Thomas reported the $5k without asking about it, then asked about the larger amount and was told it didn’t have to be reported. That you’d prefer to imagine other scenarios is neither here nor there."
I don't have a beef against Thomas, I'd prefer to believe he's not as corrupt as this appears! But what you're suggesting is an unlikely coincidence, based on speculated facts that Thomas hasn't even asserted.
That a gift can’t be double-counted certainly sounds right to ME.
And, no, Crow can give all he wants to Thomas without creating any appearance of “corruption” as long as there’s no sign of (and has been no opportunity for) any corrupt act, which there isn’t.
If you search this page for “Tim Scott” you will find a further comment on this which you may find illuminating.
Patronage is not corruption. A judge is a lawyer patronized by a political power broker, usually a politician. That there is a money value for the patronage is unavoidable.
I'm not sure what you mean by "double-counting"...As a general matter, a gift can be given to two people simultaneously, right? Why doesn't that principle apply here, where the gift directly financially benefits Thomas?
Yes I read your other comment you reference, in particular this: "Crow has made a hobby out of promoting Thomas because he likes the jurisprudence he gets from Thomas with no need to influence him."
This doesn't strike me as exonerating for Thomas. I agree that Crow was showering Thomas with gifts "because he likes the jurisprudence he gets from Thomas." A powerful judge should not allow himself to be in a position where he may lose a lot financially, if he ever departs from delivering the jurisprudence his benefactor likes.
"Patronage is not corruption. A judge is a lawyer patronized by a political power broker, usually a politician."
Kinda, but by design the politician's power ends when the judge is confirmed (at least in the federal system). That's different than here, where Crow had the ability to turn off the money faucet.
How does it relieve the guardian of an expense? Guardians are not generally financially responsible for their wards, and the fact that Person A might choose to give Person B a gift if Person C does not doesn't make Person A the recipient of the gift.
Legally required or not, it seems like Thomas *chose* to assume the financial responsibility of raising Martin. He said in 2007 he was raising Martin like a son from age 6, and Paoletti's statement of yesterday is to similar effect.
Yeah, and it seems like other people chose to assume that responsibility as well.
Seems like the statue's pretty clear, he doesn't have to disclose gifts to dependent children who are not sons, daughters, stepsons or step-daughters.
Not really sure what your first sentence means? The Paoletta statement never alleges Crow acknowledged an obligation to provide for Martin's education (what obligation?). The statement simply acknowledges Crow volunteered a gift, albeit it disputes whom the gift was to.
Also it seems like you are making the same argument as Gandy, that if the gift is to Martin then it can't also be to Thomas. I don't believe that's right.
Did Thomas ever acknowledge an obligation to pay for the kid’s education? It seems like he was just giving the kid gifts, just like Crow was.
The statue limits reporting of dependent children’s gifts to sons, daughters, etc. That contradicts the claim that gifts to dependent children who are not sons, daughters, etc. are gifts to the principal under the statue.
ETA:
I get that the pro-publica article claims that guardians are typically responsible for paying for wards' education, but from what I can tell that simply isn't true.
12″ Pianist: It seems Thomas did acknowledge an obligation given that the year before Martin went to the private school, Thomas said he and Ginni were raising Martin “as a son”; and in light of the Paoletta statement: “They agreed to take in this young child much as Justice Thomas’s grandparents had done for him…” https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23797919-mark-paoletta-statement-via-twitter-may-4-2023
You may be right that under Virginia law Thomas was not legally required to provide an education out of his own money, but is that dispositive? Isn't paying an expense on behalf of someone who voluntarily assumes it, a gift?
I missed this:
"The statue limits reporting of dependent children’s gifts to sons, daughters, etc. That contradicts the claim that gifts to dependent children who are not sons, daughters, etc. are gifts to the principal under the statue."
It seems like you are contending: "If someone makes a gift, and the gift's recipient(s) include someone other than the official's sons, daughters, etc., then by definition the official cannot also qualify as a recipient of the gift." That obviously can't be right. Am I misunderstanding your argument?
Deciding to do something isn’t the same as acknowledging an obligation to do it. Thomas gave the kid similar gifts to what Crow gave the kid.
No. Suppose the kid’s parents had come into some money and provided it for the maintenance of the kid, or a different relative had died and left money to the kid, thereby making Thomas’s contributions unnecessary. Would such contributions be gifts to Thomas?
Parents and others routinely provide money for the maintenance of children who are under the guardianship of others. I suppose in many situations, the guardian would voluntarily assume those expenses if others did not. But such contributions are not considered gifts to the guardian in any case.
Yes. I understand your argument to be that a gift to a dependent child who is not a son, daughter, etc. is necessarily also a gift to the guardian, for purposes of the statute, because it defrays expenses that could otherwise be assumed by the guardian. But if that were true, that would completely subsume the portion of the statute that limits reporting requirements to sons, daughters, etc.
This seems like an strangely arms-length way of describing what Thomas called "raising him as a son." If Thomas himself considered his relationship to Martin to be father-son, shouldn't that govern when we're determining whether
"Suppose the kid’s parents had come into some money and provided it for the maintenance of the kid, or a different relative had died and left money to the kid, thereby making Thomas’s contributions unnecessary. Would such contributions be gifts to Thomas?"
Other relatives -- yes, I think so, why not? If an extended family member gives money toward the education, food, etc. of a child that someone is raising using his own money, that certainly seems like a gift to the family.
Parents -- yes, at least if they had terminated the parental relationship (but I'm not aware if that's true).
Also using relative in this hypothetical confuses matters. Crow was not a relative and had no connection to Martin except through Thomas, i.e., he was surely intending to benefit Thomas (as well as Martin).
“Yes.”
If my interpretation of your argument is literally correct, then you believe that if I give something of value jointly to Thomas and a third party non-relative, then it cannot qualify as a gift to Thomas. That's why I'm asking, is that really your understanding?
“I understand your argument to be that a gift to a dependent child who is not a son, daughter, etc. is necessarily also a gift to the guardian, for purposes of the statute, because it defrays expenses that could otherwise be assumed by the guardian. But if that were true, that would completely subsume the portion of the statute that limits reporting requirements to sons, daughters, etc.”
No. E.g., under my interpretation that portion of the statute is still necessary to cover gifts to adult children, and children who are not the financial responsibility of the official in question.
Actually, need to amend something I said above: In the example you gave where a relative died, that would not be a gift. The definition statute Blackman cites above excludes bequests from the definition of "gift."
12" -- I apologize for confusing the thread further, but I see now that I probably misread something you said above.
I guess when you said "Yes" you were saying I was *not* correctly describing your position re: joint gifts, so please ignore my response to that particular part.
No, that's not my argument. And that's not what happened.
But the statute only applies to sons, daughters, etc. who are under 21 and living with the reporting person, or who qualify as dependents of the reporting person for tax purposes.
“But the statute only applies to sons, daughters, etc. who are under 21 and living with the reporting person, or who qualify as dependents of the reporting person for tax purposes.”
AND the statute also applies to Thomas himself, that’s the point. And we are in agreement that Thomas isn’t disqualified from being considered a recipient under the statute, merely because someone other than his son/daughter/etc. is ALSO a recipient.
"And that's not what happened."
Well that's the rub, I think that *is* what happened. Martin and Thomas jointly received a gift: Thomas in particular received something of value, defraying the financial responsibility of raising Martin as a son that he decided to undertake. If the point of the ethics laws is to expose/prevent financial benefits that might significantly influence the recipient, this sure seems to qualify.
But I'm repeating myself at this point, so I'll leave it at that.
Why? I mean, if my sister didn't pay my nephew's tuition, I probably would. And if I didn't, my mom probably would. But that doesn't make my sister's payment a gift to me, or my payment a gift to my mom.
"But that doesn’t make my sister’s payment a gift to me"
Isn't it, as defined by the statute? You received something of value because your sister reduced your expenses.
"or my payment a gift to my mom."
I agree, but your mom's relationship to your son is not like Thomas's to Martin's.
You think the statute requires reporting of a judge's sister's payments for her own kid's tuition, if the judge would otherwise pay the tuition? I don't think it does, but that's the argument people are making.
My quick reading comprehension sucks today, I misread "nephew" as your own son.
I should have said...no, your sister's payment for *her* own son's education surely wouldn't qualify as a gift to you. You never assumed the responsibility of raising her son as your own.
But if you just jump in and pay her son's education expenses, that sure seems like a gift to both of them, doesn't it?
Again, a gift to a guardian is not a gift to a ward, even if the guardian uses that gift to buy something for the ward.
It’s been an interesting few weeks for Blackman-watchers on this site. There was a long silence from him after the first accounts of Thomas scoring off Crow. You could sense the Professor’s queasiness over the topic; when he finally posted it just repeated another person’s Thomas defense, with Blackman offering no comment of his own.
But the courtier who wants to get ahead must be made of stern stuff. Now Blackman is part of the quick-reaction team, hurrying excuses into print for each new revelation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/05/04/leonard-leo-clarence-ginni-thomas-conway/
Grades are due soon. Idk if he’ll have time given the pace of stories.
Do you think Blackman is the kind of professor who actually cares about imparting and testing the knowledge of his students?
That would require some kind of ethical compass. He doesn't have one, and never will.
He doesn't belong here.
The core of the problem is not the technicalities of what Justice Thomas is legally required to disclose. The problem is that Justice Thomas accepts very valuable gifts from very rich people wirh an interest in influencing the court in the first place. Accepting these sorts of gifts is itself a problem. If Justice Thomas wanted to be rich, he should have stayed in private business.
Focusing on the technicalities of the disclosure rules is totally beside the point.
All he wants is to exercise massive amounts of political power in unpopular ways, with no accountability, while living the lifestyle of a billionaire and not being criticized for any of it. It’s such a small ask, I’m surprised anyone even cares.
You’ve got cause and effect backasswards. Crow has made a hobby out of promoting Thomas because he likes the jurisprudence he gets from Thomas with no need to influence him. Plus, like a lot of Conservative Inc types, he probably fetishizes Black conservatives. That Thomas is actually pretty good (unlike the useless Colin Powell, Tim Scott, etc types) is gravy for the rest of us.
Lol, you still support the Iraq War! Hilarious.
Blackman’s explanation presumes that Justice Thomas cares about attacks despite being attacked for decades. That just doesn’t make a lot of sense. It would be understandable to be thin-skinned when a person isn’t used to the spotlight, but after decades, one would expect adaptation.
For this reason, I do not think the Blackman’s explanation of Thomas’s motive is the best one. Note that the cases that Blackman cites involve ordinary people, not Supreme Court Justices with life tenure who are thus not vulnerable to being unjustly “canceled.”
I would be interested in why a Crow has taken an interest in Thomas’s grand-nephew to the point of incurring significant expenses on his behalf. That is worth looking into, whether it is required to be disclosed or not.
Why are you treating it like a mystery? The nephew is of interest for the same reason Thomas’ mothers’s house is of interest. — being a patron to Thomas is one of Crow’s hobbies. But there’s no conflict of interest issue in this.
This hobby of which you speak happens to be a Supreme Court Justice who has a duty of loyalty to the American people and is supposed to be a public servant. Crow needs to find a different hobby than creating the appearance of corruption, if not actually engaging in corruption.
There is no “appearance of corruption”, and Crow doesn’t have to change a thing.
Your opinion on this is pretty low-value.
You think it would be "just fine" if Soros started picking up the expenses of the liberal justices.
Like I said above. You are consistent. Consistently wrong.
It is "not normal" for adults to seek to pay the expenses of unrelated adults. Especially when those unrelated adults are not particularly needy. The vast majority of society understands this.
If you want to be a Supreme Court justice, maybe don't engage in deviant weird financial behavior that has a tendency to raise questions.
If you’re a conservative justice the likes of pro-publica will fall over themselves to “raise questions” no matter what you do, so why worry about it?
Sotomayor isn’t going to get any worse if Soros pays her relatives’ tuition so why set my hair on fire about it? She’s going to get rich like all the other pols, and it’s chump change. And legal.
You've painted yourself into an extraordinary corner when you're argung in favour of Supreme Court Justices being supported and treated to lavish gifts by billionaires.
I get protecting friends. But if the guy only became a friend after you joined the supreme court and allowed you acces to exotic vacations, homes, private school tuition, protecting him starts to look like protecting your gravy train.
"I wouldn't want my new friend, power broker harlow crow, to be called out, because then i won't be invited to Lake Cuomo next year." Is a hell of a thing you are trying to make sound principled.
Actually, I think the Volokh staff should have to disclose their funding sources before they weigh in on this.
Let’s start with yours.
Okay, I have no funding sources, now Volokh
No they shouldn't. They're not Supreme Court justices.
Hogwash.
I'm married to a judge. A lowly state superior court judge, but a judge bound by the same ethics rules that supposedly bind her more highly placed brethren.
Which means that, per state rules, we disclose, annually, every company in which we own more than (IIRC) $2,000 worth of stock, and our sources of income, and our sales of assets, etc. Which we do. In irritating detail, since we've got some money in retirement accounts, which means we have to contact our financial guy to find out what's in her portfolio, my portfolio, at what values, that day, and get the entire list.
Prof. Blackman seems to have lost sight of the whole "avoiding not only impropriety, but the appearance of impropriety" business. I'd like to think that judges and justices, (and one would like to think, SCOTUS Justices) need to meet a higher standard than the Trumpian "Well the statute doesn't exactly say I have to disclose this, so I don't, and if I needed to, but I didn't, well, whoops!".
The point is, that this stuff by Thomas, undisclosed, sure gives an appearance of impropriety. ...and he's made it abundantly clear that as long as the Democrats don't have 2/3 of the Senate, he couldn't give less of a damn.
BTW, an argument can be made that Thomas isn't even in compliance with the letter of the law: Young Mr. Martin was Thomas' "dependent" , and he was a child, at the time; that would appear to make him Thomas' "dependent child".
Corrupt to the core. Rotten, rotten, rotten.
All sorts of crappy arguments can be made, but if the definition in the relevant law, as quoted by Mr. Paoletta, of “dependent child”, doesn’t match “a child who is a ward” then it doesn’t and all your fulminations are weightless crap.
Are you a lawyer?
If so, did you enjoy your time at South Texas College of Law Houston, and why did you attend one of the worst law schools in America?
Are you? Can you prove it? FWIW, your stupid repetitive postings don’t indicate any knowledge of law.
And my comment is obviously true and doesn’t require any bogus appeal to authority, so I will continue to tell you to go fuck yourself and the bottom you rode in on.
From the statute:
Fans of Thomas do not want to hand his opponents a win so will say whatever comes to mind in order to defend him, regardless of how ridiculous it makes them look.
Actually, it looks like he's down to just a few defenders: Josh Blackman, Mark Paoletta, and the always reliable Gandydancer.
If that were true you could impeach him instead of being laughably impotent.
Open wider, clinger. The culture war’s winners will be shoving even more progress down your bigoted, right-wing throat until the moment you are replaced.
Thank you for your continuing compliance, loser.
Good luck with that, wrecktum.
Indeed. Corruption is perfectly on-brand for Republicans; it's what got them into trouble in 2006 and led to a number of embarrassing scandals during Trump's short four years (though it is admittedly hard to remember all of them). Crow's lavishing cash on Thomas, in the ways he's chosen to do so, might be off-puttingly personal for the pros - they might prefer their never-ending election campaigns and PAC slush funds - but it's chump change in most Republicans' views, barely worth even defending.
I agree.
Me so confused. Right to privacy to avoid doxing, etc. No right to privacy to terminate pre-viability pregnancy. Good thing the guys in black robes are waaay smarter than me.
That’s so easy that even Ms. “I don’t know what a woman is” Affirmative Action Jackson is waaaay smarter than you are.
Ketanji is the Beyoncé of the Supreme Court—all the other justices are Destiny’s children!
Time to call it a night, folks. Nothing more to see here. Unless of course you want to take a look at the Washington Post's new article on certain payments made to the spouse of a certain Supreme Court justice.
Here's the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/05/04/leonard-leo-clarence-ginni-thomas-conway/
And if you want a teaser, here are the first two paragraphs:
"Conservative judicial activist Leonard Leo arranged for the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas to be paid tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work just over a decade ago, specifying that her name be left off billing paperwork, according to documents reviewed by The Washington Post.
"In January 2012, Leo instructed the GOP pollster Kellyanne Conway to bill a nonprofit group he advises and use that money to pay Virginia “Ginni” Thomas, the documents show. The same year, the nonprofit, the Judicial Education Project, filed a brief to the Supreme Court in a landmark voting rights case."
I'm sure the Thomas defense team will soon try to convince us that everything's okay.
Everyone know Ginni Thomas gets jobs based on her sex appeal—she’s hawt! That Justice Thomas is one lucky dirty doggy! I hope they do it doggy style tonight in their yacht! She’s almost as hawt as my biatch. Cry more, libs!
Thanks for walking into that one Sam. Or Little Frankie. Or whatever pseudonym you're going to be using today. You are a credit to your side of the debate, and your fellow Clarence Thomas apologists must be very proud of you. Keep up the good work and be sure to come back when you can give us more examples of your brilliance and insight.
It’s understandable that a defense lawyer, paid to defend a client, would attempt to come up with some argument, even a weak one, to justify his client’s behavior. That’s his job and his professional ethical obligation. Defense lawyers often defend reprehensible people. Focusing exclusively on whether technical rules were violated and finding ways of getting out on technicalities is entirely appropriate. They often have no positive public reputation that could be put at risk by doing so.
But Professor Blackman is a law professor, not Justice Thomas’ defense lawyer. And a Justice of the Supreme Court is not an ordinary defendant. Justice Thomas has a public reputation that has to be maintained, and needs to concern himself not just with technical rules considered narrowly, but general concepts of impropriety, and indeed even the appearance of impropriety.
Professor Blackman’s defense communicates to the public that Justice Thomas can be expected, as a matter of course, to take for himself whatever isn’t nailed down, to do whatever the law doesn’t technically prohibit, and indeed to parse the law closely for things it will permit him to get away with.
For an ordinary criminal defendent, society expects this anyway, so there is no problem in a defense lawyer taking this tack.
For a Justice of the Supreme Court, there is a huge problem. “Do no harm” is a rule for doctors. But perhaps it ought to apply to lawyers as well. And Professor Blackman’s criminal-lawyer style “defense” of Justice Thomas does him and his public reputation far more damage than if Professor Blackman had simply remained silent.
Professor Blackman’s “defense” communicates to the public that society can expect no more of Justice Thomas than it can expect of a would-be criminal. It communicates that Justice Thonas can be expected to be avaracious and to use his office for personal gain, as long as he keeps his avariciousness and his use of his office for personal just barely within the technicalities of the law. Communicating to the public that it should think of Justice Thomas and judge him exactly the same way it judges a purported gangster in the dock is ultimately far more damaging to Justice Thomas than silence could ever be.
Someone on this site once said that Blackman doesn't read the comments to his posts. That's too bad. He should read your comment and maybe begin to consider what message he's sending to his students. Zealous advocacy and blind obsequiousness are two very different things.
If you believe for one second that Josh might "begin to consider" having any viewpoint that doesn't come bought and paid for by FedSoc, then you haven't read much of his work.
He clearly reads the comments, having made edits in posts in response to people pointing out errors, etc.
I would assume that he can't help but comment, as well, under a sockpuppet. But I honestly can't think of any regular commenter here whose pattern of responses would match Josh's style. Maybe he's Sevo.
Huh? The argument is that the statute doesn't require reporting gifts grand-nephews. This is a very strong argument. The statue says:
The counterargument, from Pro-publica, is an evidence-free claim that "Typically, the legal guardian is responsible for the child’s education."
But this is just false, legal guardians are not typically responsible for the child's expenses, including education.
I notice you are talking solely about the formal legal responsibilities of legal guardians, ignoring the personal relationship Justice Thomas had with this individual, who has been part of his family. It may well be the case that in the typical case, the one you descrine, the typical court-appointed arms-length legal guardian does not pay for their wards’ education, and doesn’t in any event send their wards to expensive private schools. And if some charity fund gave the charity case a scholarship, it normally would have nothing personal to do with the legal guardian.
But you can’t seriously suggest that that scenario has anything to do with Justice Thomas’s situationz, which was anything but typical. Justice Thomas treated Mark as a member of his family and had a very personal relationship with him. He was a relation. It was something of a formality that he was a ward rather than an adapted son. If one of Thomas’ “friends” hadn’t picked up the tab, Justice Thomas would have paid it himself. The gift was made not as a scholarship for a deserving arms-length charity case, but as a way of personally helping Thomas out with his responsibilities to his family.
Again, the biggest problem is Justice Thomas accepted gifts of this sort. The reporting technicalities are almost irrelevant.
"Justice Thomas treated Mark as a member of his family and had a very personal relationship with him. He was a relation. It was something of a formality that he was a ward rather than an adapted son. If one of Thomas’ “friends” hadn’t picked up the tab, Justice Thomas would have paid it himself."
To the extent that this is true, it's even more true with dependent children as defined by the statute. But the statute make a distinction between gifts to a dependent child and gifts to the reporting individual, it doesn't make sense to turn around and claim that the statute treats gifts to a dependent ward who falls outside the definition as gifts to the reporting individual.
Imagine if a neighbor’s child fell to his death in Justice Thomas’ home, and Justice Thomas responded no problem, we have insurance, it’ll cover scraping the body out and throwing it in the trash, and will pay the minimum legally required compensation, which my lawyers are paid to ensure is as little as possible. The statute may well not require any more of a response.
The fact Justice Thomas took care of his grand-nephew is an indication he is better than that. But he nonetheless has to consider not just the minimum the statute requires, but also avoiding impropriety and the apprarance of impropriety.
So you think that Thomas could've said, "Sorry, kid; no dinner for you; you've got no funds left in your bank account to buy food, and it's not my responsibility to pay for your expenses"?
From the pro-publica article:
No evidence is provided for this statement. Typlically, legal guardians are responsible for arranging for the child's education, not for paying for it directly. From the Georgia Legal Aid website:
Nothing about directly supporting the minor.
Somehow I doubt you'd be so nuanced if it were Sotomayor's grandkids,
It's not Thomas's grandkids either.
Heck, I don't even know who is paying for Sotomayor's grandnephews' education, if indeed she has any, but I doubt it's Sotomayor herself. I can't see how that's corrupt, though.
Pianist is a perfect example of just how far the right will go to twist reality to fit their agenda.
Thomas sends his ward to a private school, but, somehow isn't responsible for paying for it.
Had I known Pianist's logic, I'd have sent my kids to the most expensive schools in the nation, and I'd never have to pay a dime. Maybe we can post this idea as a TikTok hack, and everyone can go to Harvard for free!!!
Sorry pianist. The guardian does not have to send the ward to an elite boarding school, but if they choose to, they are responsible for paying the tuition. Just like the guardian is responsible for paying for the ward's food, housing, etc.
And when a very rich person gives money to cover said responsibility, it needs to be disclosed.
Right. It's his ward, not his kid.
You're referring to your son, daughter, stepson, or stepdaughter, not your grandnephew, correct?
Alas, poor Yorick.
Whether the kid was biological or a ward makes no legal difference. A guardian has a legal duty to provide for the education of the ward. If said guardian decides to send the kid to an expensive boarding school to meet that requirement, that's up to the guardian. But the guardian remains responsible for the payment of said education.
And you're confusing the legal requirements of a guardian (to provide education for the ward) and the disclosure requirements of a Supreme Court justice. It doesn't matter one whit whether the ward was a biological grandson or a grand nephew, or no relation whatsoever. The legal guardian still has the responsibility to pay for the education of the ward. And when your very rich friend wants to relieve you of said responsibility, you have a duty to report that gift.
But hey, despite being horribly wrong, you at least got a Hamlet reference in, so there is that.
"Whether the kid was biological or a ward makes no legal difference."
Huh? It absolutely does. Well, it makes a difference whether or not the guardian is a legal parent, not a biological parent. Usually parents are also legal guardians, but being a legal guardian doesn't carry all the responsibilities of being a parent.
Given that you didn't bother to mention what kind of guardianship we're even talking about, it's clear that you don't know anything about the law, or the typical behavior of those who have Thomas' form of guardianship.
Once again, nobody should be listening to you.
Enlighten me as to "the kind of guardianship" Thomas has that would negate the requirements of Georgia Code § 29-2-21. Power of guardian over minor; obligations of guardians; liability of guardian ("Arrange for the support, care, education, health, and welfare of the minor considering the minor's available resources;) or Virginia Code § 64.2-1800. Custody, care, and education of ward ("The guardian of a minor's estate ... shall provide for the minor's health, education, maintenance, and support from the income of the minor's estate and, if income is not sufficient, from the corpus of the minor's estate).
Maybe I'm missing the top secret form of guardianship that Thomas had that nullified those statutory requirements. Feel free to enlighten me.
You seem to have missed that my response was not to you. I'm on your side in this argument.
Please accept my apologies.
"He intrinsically views disclosure laws as difficult to justify"
Yeah, that's a problem. And out of step with general government principles.
If Thomas wanted to shield his privacy, he could do the country a favor and retire.
Justice Thomas Long Ago Explained His Perspective On Disclosure Laws
Of course he did. He thinks it would be terribly unfair if someone couldn't use enormous wealth to influence government without the people knowing about it. What we have learned from these recent revelations is that he also thinks it would terribly unfair if the people in government that receive some of that wealth couldn't also be bought without the people knowing about it.
Not so fast, Queen. I don’t see a lot if concern about Hunter Biden on the left. At least AOC, to her credit, is interested in curtailing stock trading by members of Congress even though she hasn’t yet has the opportunity to partake.
Corruption is bipartisan. And so is concern about corruption.
Hunter Biden is the son of the President of the United States. Therefore, any corruption involving him is inherently concerning. Those concerns are capable of being set aside based on a full understanding, but only after a thorough investigation.
That you are looking for an excuse to not care makes the point I am making. Partisans on both sides have blinders on. There is a tribal loyalty that transcends logic.
AOC is perhaps an exception because she is something of an outsider in her own party. She is maybe not as blindly loyal to the Democratic Party as you appear to be.
He's only Senescent Joe's only Begotten/Surviving son, nothing to see here folks! and WTF you thought James Carvilles Cunt was Hot?? I thought you were a Bee-otch (a real one, with a Gash), this changes everything, prepare for some thunderbolts (I Know, my mom took thunderbolts from Wilt/Kareem/OJ, every Nigger you can think of)
Frank "Pull my finger! Ha! that wasn't my finger"
Neither is Clarence Thomas's grandnephew.
What was the cash flow from Billy to Jimmy?
In order to understand Joe Biden, it is necessary to understand the people close to him. We are talking about concern justifying investigation and understanding, not jumping to conclusions.
No one believes that adults should be held responsible for the behavior of other adults they have no authority to control. That said, we have eyes and we understand that human relationships matter. Hunter Biden isn't some random guy off the street.
By the way, Billy Carter was before my time. But according to Wikipedia, his relationship with Libya does, on its face, appear to be improper and it was appropriately the subject of a Senate investigation.
'I don’t see a lot if concern about Hunter Biden on the left.'
That's because the evidence of his supposed corruption is sorely lacking.
Just as the current investigation of Hunter is. If he's committed crimes, he should be punished. If he hasn't, he shouldn't. If there's any evidence that anything done for Hunter influenced his dad then show it, but I haven't seen any yet. OTOH laundering money to get it to Thomas's wife when you're filing briefs before Thomas and the court certainly rises to the level of an appearance of impropriety.
That would have been a more intelligent rebuttal if someone had accused Clarence Thomas's grandnephew of wrongdoing.
Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.
People are also claiming that Hunter is being given gifts and other consideration in order to influence Biden.
That's a much more attenuated theory of influence than paying for someone Thomas is directly responsible for supporting.
"That’s a much more attenuated theory of influence than paying for someone Thomas is directly responsible for supporting."
Thomas is not directly responsible for supporting his grandnephew.
As noted below, he has taken on personal financial obligations to that end.
How many people have called you wrong at best and twisting the truth at worst in this thread by now? It's an impressive list you are racking up!
Thomas refers to his nephew as someone he's raising as "his son."
"As noted below, he has taken on personal financial obligations to that end."
He clearly hasn’t taken it on. Harlan Crow has taken it on. Talk about twisting the truth!
Leaning quite hard on clearly still, I see.
Thomas took on a personal financial obligation, and than Crowe paid it.