The Volokh Conspiracy
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Victims of Communism Day - 2023
May Day should be a day to honor victims of an ideology that took tens of millions of lives. But we should also be open to alternative dates if they can attract broad enough support.

NOTE: This post largely reprints last year's Victims of Communism Day post, with some modifications.
Today is May Day. Since 2007, I have advocated using this date as an international Victims of Communism Day. I outlined the rationale for this proposal (which was not my original idea) in my very first post on the subject:
May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their [authority]. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes' millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined. We appropriately have a Holocaust Memorial Day. It is equally appropriate to commemorate the victims of the twentieth century's other great totalitarian tyranny. And May Day is the most fitting day to do so….
Our comparative neglect of communist crimes has serious costs. Victims of Communism Day can serve the dual purpose of appropriately commemorating the millions of victims, and diminishing the likelihood that such atrocities will recur. Just as Holocaust Memorial Day and other similar events promote awareness of the dangers of racism, anti-Semitism, and radical nationalism, so Victims of Communism Day can increase awareness of the dangers of left-wing forms of totalitarianism, and government domination of the economy and civil society.
While communism is most closely associated with Russia, where the first communist regime was established, it had comparably horrendous effects in other nations around the world. The highest death toll for a communist regime was not in Russia, but in China. Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward was likely the biggest episode of mass murder in the entire history of the world.
November 7, 2017 was the 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia, which led to the establishment of the first-ever communist regime. On that day, I put up a post outlining some of the lessons to be learned from a century of experience with communism. The post explains why the lion's share of the horrors perpetrated by communist regimes were inherent flaws of the system. For the most part, they cannot be ascribed to circumstantial factors, such as flawed individual leaders, peculiarities of Russian and Chinese culture, or the absence of democracy. Some of these other factors, especially the last, probably did make the situation worse than it might have been otherwise. But, for reasons I explained in the same post, some form of dictatorship or oligarchy is virtually inevitable in a socialist economic system whire the government controls all or nearly all of the economy.
While the influence of communist ideology has declined since its mid-twentieth century peak, it is far from dead. Largely unreformed communist regimes remain in power in Cuba and North Korea. In Venezuela, the Marxist government's socialist policies have resulted in political repression, the starvation of children, and a massive refugee crisis - the biggest in the history of the Western hemisphere.
In Russia, the authoritarian regime of former KGB Colonel Vladimir Putin has embarked on a wholesale whitewashing of communism's historical record. Putin's brutal and indefensible invasion of Ukraine probably owes more to Russian nationalist ideology than communism. But it is nonetheless fed in part by his desire to recapture the supposed power and glory of the Soviet Union, and his long-held belief that the collapse of the USSR was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century." It is also telling that most communists in Russia and elsewhere have joined with far-right nationalists in largely backing Putin's line on the war.
In China, the Communist Party remains in power (albeit after having abandoned many of its previous socialist economic policies), and has recently become less tolerant of criticism of the mass murders of the Mao era (part of a more general turn towards greater repression).
The Chinese regime's repressive policies also played a major role in its initial attempts to cover up the coronavirus crisis, which probably forestalled any chance of containing it before it became a massive pandemic. The brutal mass lockdowns entailed by the government's "zero Covid" policies also had much in common with the communist totalitarian legacy.
Perhaps worst of all its recent atrocities, China's horrific repression of the Uighur minority is reminiscent of similar policies under Mao and Stalin, though it has not - so far - reached the level of actual mass murder. But imprisoning over 1 million people in horrific concentration camps is more than bad enough.
In a 2012 post, I explained why May 1 is a better date for Victims of Communism Day than the available alternatives, such as November 7 (the anniversary of the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia) and August 23 (the anniversary of the Nazi-Soviet Pact). I also addressed various possible objections to using May Day, including claims that the date should be reserved for the celebration of labor unions.
But, as explained in my 2013 Victims of Communism Day post, I would be happy to support a different date if it turns out to be easier to build a consensus around it. If another date is chosen, I would prefer November 7; not out of any desire to diminish the significance of communist atrocities in other nations, but because it marks the establishment of the very first communist regime. November 7 has in fact been declared Victims of Communism Memorial Day by three state legislatures.
If this approach continues to spread, I would be happy to switch to November 7, even though May 1 would be still more appropriate. For that reason, I have adopted the practice of also commemorating the victims of communism on November 7.
I would also be happy to back almost any other date that could command broad support. Unless and until that happens, however, May 1 will continue to be Victims of Communism Day at the Volokh Conspiracy.
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Hoo boy is this post gonna trigger some Democrats, bootlickers, and Jews.
Brave, Ilya, brave.
I maintain that Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler -- he had more to murder and he had more years to do it.
And you'd be wrong.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-population-of-europe-in-1933-population-data-by-country
"and Jews"
Judeo-Bolsheviks, you mean??
I think we all know why BCD and his ilk hate communists so much. It was they who snuffed out his dream of a "pure blood" and "genetically superior" Europe.
But what about the 50 million people murdered by America over it's history.
Capitalism has a long history of mass murder.
And Fuck Off to you too, Commie!
Izzatchu, Herr Misek?
Either way,
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
Oscar Foxtrot Foxtrot,
November Alpha Zulu India!
One of my great grandfathers was murdered by Stalin’s NKVD goons in 1937 - after they nearly beat the then-73-year-old cancer patient to death the year before. All because he rented out part of his home (the one thing that they let him keep, having previously stolen everything else that he ever worked for) to put food on the table in 1930s Ukraine (then still suffering from Stalin’s engineered famine). About 3/4 of his descendants were effectively held as prisoners for 3 generations. Any day to memorialize them and the countless other victims of this sick and evil collectivist ideology is fine by me - but much better if the day picked happens to piss off the largest possible number of collective assholes, Russian or otherwise.
Not meaning to ignore you. Kindest thoughts to you and your Great-Grandfather and family. Just had to keep a dick-measuring contest among Tyranny-lovers from stinking out the joint.
i love this yearly post, all the libs rush to defend Commies.
No enemies to the left!
That's good. By treating the Victims of Communism Day as a means to attack the US capitalist imperialist party that you don't like on behalf of the US capitalist imperialist party that you do, you are treating it with the precise amount of respect it deserves.
But what about the 50 million people murdered by America over it’s history.
Capitalism has a long history of mass murder.
I've been reading this blog for 20 years or so and I do not recall any liberal ever coming to the defense of communism. Granted, my memory is not what it used to be, so if there's one I've overlooked I'm sure you can give us a name and a thread date. Liberals think communists have a First Amendment right to speak, sure, you'll be hard pressed to find many (if any) of us who will defend the ideology on the merits.
"thread date"
May 1 2022, 2021, 2020 ....
And I'm calling bullshit. Find me something on any of those threads in which a liberal came to the defense of communism.
Whataboutism is a defense.
No it's not; it's a logical fallacy. But even if it were a defense, "what about" doesn't justify anything; it doesn't dispute the allegations; it merely says that other people did the same thing.
Can you find, in the entire history of this blog, a liberal who said that communism is a good thing? If not, then your initial statement was false.
It’s generally not even a logical fallacy, it’s just something people yell when somebody puts what they’re saying in undesired context.
“Your shit stinks!” “Well, so does yours. That’s what shit does, it stinks.” “Whataboutism!”
Since, in this example, the second guy isn’t claiming that your shit stinking means his doesn’t, he’s not guilty of a fallacy. Just bringing up something you’d rather people ignored for the moment.
So,
“Vote for Biden, Trump is a liar!” “Here’s a long list of lies Biden has told.” “Whataboutism!”
Note that the first guy’s argument is actually dependent on a comparison between Biden and Trump, and so BOTH are relevant to the argument? That’s why fallacious claims of “whataboutism” are so common in political discussions; Because political discussions may facially appear to be about one thing, but are almost always implicitly about whether that one thing is better or worse than the unmentioned alternative.
So the guy saying, "Don't vote for Trump, he's a liar!" may not explicitly be saying "Vote for Biden, instead!", but implicitly? Yeah, he's absolutely saying that, so Biden really is relevant.
I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Never.
I have never encountered a post of yours that wasn't copypasta bullshit.
Never.
The marxists came to America, Bob from Ohio.
It seems to me that a major unifying theme here is “authoritarianism”, whatever “left wing/communist” (USSR, Maoist China, Cambodia) or “right wing/nationalist” (WWII Germany, current Russia, Chile) fig leaf a particular regime chooses to dress itself up with. They're both awful, and reflect the same fundamental style of evil.
Right-wingers (including some right here on the VC) pretending that their authoritarian execution fantasies are better than Beria’s is part of the bigger problem.
Whataboutism #1.
How many more?
Agreeing that communist authoritarianism is “awful” and “evil”, while observing that it shares those attributes with other forms of authoritarianism, is pretty much the opposite of whatabboutism in that it makes zero, zilch, nada attempt to deflect from or minimize said evil.
Sheesh, you can’t even get your taxonomy of logical failures correct.
The problem with communism is that it isn't authoritarian. It's totalitarian.
I think that's the key difference, actually: Authoritarian regimes "just" want to be obeyed, but if you do obey them, they're pretty much going to leave you alone. They don't particularly want to dictate every aspect of your life, they just want obedience when they DO issue orders.
Totalitarian regimes want the whole ball of wax, they don't tolerate anything being outside their control, and they are much more prone to engage in genocide.
Pretty much this. Part of the point is that while you might not like Putin or Pinochet and think that their restrictions on personal liberties are absolutely unconscionable, you are still probably better off than being ruled by a Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot or Castro. Keeping your head down and avoiding annoying a strong man is an easier life than dealing with murderers who want to reorganize society. Maduro is probably at the top of the list for the communists and even there you would likely be worse off than under Pinochet.
Of course by saying this, you invite the idiots to come out and exclaim "You are supporting Pinochet or Putin" when the reality is just that the totalitarian types with holy missions are far deadlier and in general make things far worse for those under their yoke.
Any halfway decent libertarian can tell you the proper axis for analysis of effective (or not) government is not left vs. right, but dictatorship vs. freedom.
This maps directly. Normal complaints about regulatory state or safety net needs are small potatoes on this scale (and only show up when they get so pronounced the drag on the economy starts to approach full scale corruption in 3rd world countries, where you need permission from any number of waggle-fingered officials to do anything, so most don’t bother and the economy is a dog.)
I agree that the worst features of each type are shared.
My problem/confusion is how they are regarded by American media and academia. Nazis are shunned and ridiculed, deservedly so. The term “Nazi” is used as a denunciation. Call yourself a Nazi and you’re gonna catch some shit.
Communist are seen as benign, harmless oddballs. Communists can get work at nearly every university across America, and openly proclaim their philosophy. The fact that their philosophy has a bigger body account and longer and larger history of oppression than Nazism is totally ignored. Guys like Bernie Sanders are seen as harmless gadflies.
Communism deserves every bit of the vitriol that Nazism receives. But it doesn’t get it. Why?
Why?
Why? Probably because clowns like you conflate mainstream social democracy like that advocated by Bernie Sanders with Stalinism. Just because you're too intellectually lazy to understand the difference between the two doesn't mean everyone else must be.
Article about the evils of communism specifically, and a comment saying basically, “but what about right wingers?” Seems pretty whataboutish to me. Not to mention the ad hominem attack on VC commenters.
If the argument had been that there shouldn't be a "Victim of Communism Day" because there were also victims of Nazism, you would be right.
But I don't think that was his argument: it was that the day should include all victims of such evil regimes.
Both sides have produced awful governments (some more awful than others). The difference is, that there still are many apologists and fellow travelers on the left side, far fewer on the right. How many college students wear T-shirts with Che Guevara vs. Benito Mussolini on them? How many professors consider themselves Marxists vs. Fascists?
It is almost universally acknowledged that, for example, Nazi Germany was one of the most evil regimes in history. The same should apply to Stalin's Soviet Union, but there are many, many who would resist that characterization, some half-heartedly, some fully.
That's why there needs to be a Victims of Communism Day.
Pretty good point. Also a far better rationale than some of the currently-commenting folks can muster (or even conceptualize, it seems).
There is a very small handful that defend Stalin, like that nutball Asatar Bair. "Many many" just isn't true.
...Which is also why you support Black Lives Matter, rather than All Lives Matter?
To be right wing is to be anti authoritarian by default. So the above is an attempt at changing rules in the middle of the game.
To be right wing is to be anti authoritarian by default
Bullshit. At no point has this ever been true.
The right wing is anti-authoritarian? Tell it to the transgendered, after state after right wing state has passed laws trying to erase their very existence. Tell it to Disney, who has been at the receiving end of a right wing governor's raw fury because it dared disagree with him on a policy issue. Tell women who want an abortion. If the right wing is anti-authoritarian, I'm the Queen of Romania.
Pondering "I Callahan"s evident rationalisation...perhaps he thinks that if the government imposes its views on the people, then it's authoritarian, but when the government imposes the views of the right kind of people, then the government is not authoritarian, it's merely reflecting the views of the people.
Nobody is erasing anybody’s existence. Unless there are a bunch of mass graves out there that nobody is aware of. Saying “people with male physiology have too large of an advantage to compete fairly with females” isn’t erasing existence. The 99%+ of the population that is not transgender needs some protection too, particularly the female half.
Overwrought hyperbole like you’re engaging in doesn’t persuade anyone of anything.
So it's only authoritarian if there are mass graves?
No, people aren't being killed, at least not yet. But having the law tell you that you don't exist, that you're the legal equivalent of a pink unicorn, is indeed an attempt to erase your existence.
How does the law tell them that they don’t exist? They aren’t allowed to work? To choose their housing? To travel where they want to go? To vote? To speak?
You’re just spouting catastrophic nonsense.
Bevis, you're not nearly as stupid as you're pretending to be.
It's not that they don't exist as people; it's that they don't exist as trans people. Sure, they still have physical existence as persons, but the law simply refuses to recognize them as anything other than either male or female.
What does that even mean? They exist as trans people if they want to. “Exist” is a word that means something. You’re just jabbering politicalspeak that doesn’t really mean anything.
OK, try it like this. Suppose the law said, "We do not recognize marriages entered into by people who use the handle Bevis the Lumberjack on the internet. Any such marriages are null, void, and of no legal effect. The law recognizes the parties to such marriages as legal strangers to one another."
Would you and your wife still exist as persons? Of course. Would you and your wife still consider yourselves married? Most likely. Would your friends and family still treat you as married? Probably.
But the effect of the law would be to legally erase your marriage. It no longer exists, legally speaking. Neither, in Florida, does the status of being transgendered. And however trans people and their friends may identify themselves, it's a pretty big legal disability to have a system in place that says the central core part of your existence will simply be ignored.
The problem with this analogy is that it is a lie, covered in bullshit, and decorated with Grade-A idiocy.
The entire point of claiming that others don’t want your side “to exist” is to evoke an emotional reaction on par with the Holocaust or other actual genocides. It isn’t an honest argument to begin with, established in bad faith from the get-go.
And then, there’s the basic fact that the rest of your claims, where they attempt to touch on facts, are simply false. A trans person in Florida can still be publicly trans all they want. They can’t perform erotic dances in front of children, nor can they teach sexual ideology to underage children in public schools.
If a trans person wants to be an erotic dancer at an adult-only nightclub, there is nothing stopping them. If they want to be a teacher, no problem. If they want to wrap their penis and tits in rainbow ribbons and dance in an elementary school library, they aren’t allowed to do it any more than a normal person would be allowed.
It's truly absurd to see you pretending that what Communism has done to hundreds of millions of people - a century of torture, poverty, and mass murder - is in any way related to the minor inconveniences and disapproval that trans people are 'subjected' to.
Yeah, and anorexics don't exist as fat people. Your point?
The law, properly, refuses to recognize them as anything other than either male or female because they ARE either male or female. What's going on inside their heads is their own problem, which sane people don't have any obligation to take part in.
You're entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to have other people suffer for your opinions.
That is, ironically, exactly my point.
A guy whose opinion is that he feels like a girl inside is not entitled to make actual women suffer by intruding into womens' bathrooms and sporting events. He's not even entitled to make other people slightly suffer the inconvenience of recalling what his preferred pronoun is this week.
Irony is dead.
No, but I draw the line at people named "Ralph" who insist on being called "Rafe".
Reasonable people can dislike or even hate DeSantis and still realize that the number of transgendered and Disney employees slaughtered in the infamous Boca Raton and Pensacola death camps is…..not that large.
No one’s existence has been erased, and that horrific “raw fury” amounted to losing some special zoning privileges the rest of world never had in the first place. You had a legitimate issue, that women who wait past the sixth week will need to drive to another state. That's at least real but it got buried under your hysterical false claims.
Get a grip. If someone who is obviously alive, thriving, and has time for boutique activism claims they were the victim of genocide, they tend to get dismissed as drama queens.
Candidly, I'm not sure it was ever good policy for Disney to be self governing, but that's not the point. Those "special zoning privileges" were legislated away (we'll see what the courts think as lawsuits, plural, have now been filed) not because they were bad policy, but because Disney had the nerve to publicly disagree with DiSantis on a policy issue. In America things like that aren't supposed to happen.
And a lot of women don't know that they're pregnant at five weeks.
“And a lot of women don’t know that they’re pregnant at five weeks.”
Which is part of why I said you had legitimate point buried in there someplace.
And yes, DeSantis opened himself to a charge of violating the first amendment by more or less openly tying the repeal of the special district to Disney’s criticisms.
But I wonder what the limits are when the retaliation is more subtle. Or if it’s “just gravy” – is it a valid defense by the government that they would’ve taken the adverse action anyway?
Example: Gov. Doe is known to dislike vaping, and there is fear he’ll pass widespread restrictions. To get out in front of it, the president of Kool Mint Vaping Corporation gives a news conference and says that Gov. Doe is a corrupt Russian agent who has criminally failed to register as such, and that “next thing, Gov. Doe is going to retaliate, y’all just wait and see.”
Is Gov. Doe now blocked from regulating vaping, since it would be retaliation? The difference can’t be that it’s a general law rather than a special privilege being withdrawn, because that would mean a privilege can never be withdrawn as long as the corporation keeps up a steady stream of controversial speech. Maybe a 1st Amendment expert could weigh in.
Reality is subject to proof, not opinion.
No one is passing laws to erase anyone's existence. Enough with the teeth-gnashing already.
You're right, that totalitarian authoritarianism is "the core problem".
But one "side"'s exemplars are derided by almost literally everyone, while the other are represented as "sad mistakes" or simply ignored.
Nobody ever tries, that I've seen, to claim "that wasn't REAL fascism" or "that wasn't REAL whatever-nationaism".
But every goddamn time, "ReAl CoMmUnIsM hAs NeVeR bEeN tRiEd" ("Yes, it has, it just doesn't match your tumblr-Communist daydreams.")
One of those two needs a counterweight - mostly thanks to vastly successful Soviet propaganda, note - and it's not "Communism kills".
For some reason this reminds me of the greatest game of all time, Sacrifice.
The whole game is narrated by your dear main character, as an after the fact running story. Then there’s this:
Playing game.
Die.
Reload. “Of course, that’s not what really happened.”
Whether real communism has ever been tried depends on how one defines real communism, but that entire line of debate is an irrelevant distraction. Is Ron DeSantis "real fascism"? He's using the power of the state to go after a business that dared publicly disagree with him on a piece of legislation; that sure smells like fascism to me. If someone were to suggest in these comments that DeSantis is a fascist, I'm sure the response from his supporters would be that that's not real fascism. So it strikes me that arguing about whether the former Soviet Union was or was not real communism, and arguing about whether or not De Santis is a real fascist, ultimately ends up being a quibble over definitions.
“If someone were to suggest in these comments that DeSantis is a fascist, I’m sure the response from his supporters would be that that’s not real fascism”
I think you’ve got the argument backward. The analogy on the other side would be an openly avowed fascist DeSantis screwing up something like a hurricane recovery, anti-fascists saying “see fascism doesn’t work”, and then other openly avowed fascists denying that DeSantis was really a fascist.
And as Sigivald points out, this doesn't happens. Because there are still openly avowed Marxists and their no-true-Scotsman routine is granted a civil hearing, but very few people claim to be a fascist and those that do get shouted down quickly.
I would argue that someone who does fascist things is a fascist and someone who does communist things is a communist, at least up to a point. There is probably no such thing as pure any ideology. And that's the point I was making: Not whether communism, or fascism, *work* but rather whether the no-true-scotsman approach to either is a valid argument.
One of the central tenets of communism is that everybody is economically equal, yet you would be hard pressed to find any communist state in which the leadership lives in the same misery as the folks down on the ground. So, if that's your measuring stick, not only has there never been true communism, but there can never be true communism because human nature will keep getting in the way. So it's pointless to argue for true communism; Joe Stalin is never going to live in poverty just like everybody else. He just won't. Ultimately, it deteriorates into crony capitalism, which was the whole point of Animal Farm.
On the other side of the ledger, just how much fascistic policy does De Santis have to implement before there's acknowledgment that he has an inner Mussolini? De Santis is never going to publicly say he's a fascist but his policies are looking more and more like it every day.
Pol Pot was the communist who came closest to living what he preached, and I think it’s no coincidence that he was also worst in terms of atrocity per capita.
How fascistic does DeSantis have to get? We’ve all got our inner Mussolinis, some control it better than others and he’s not showing above average ability. But I think people who lived under even “mild” fascists like Franco would be insulted by the suggestion that there’s any comparison. Let’s see….Florida has elections, jury trials, independent judiciary, loud opposition media, and (despite the claims of genocide) pretty much every variety of gender and sexual preference living openly and proudly.
Oh, and governor who responded to an opinion he didn’t like by messing with someone’s zoning. Frankly that sounds more like Old Chicago style bullying than Italian fascism.
So what we really have is this bizarre situation in which people claiming to be communists really aren't, and people denying that they are fascists really are. I'm sure there's a fascinating psychological reason for why that dynamic exists.
DeSantis is not a fascist. He’s engaged in a stupid battle with one corporation that doesn’t reflect well on him. Generally Florida is much more free than, say, California. Is Gavin Newsome a fascist? Even asking the question is ridiculous.
Communism has been tried in several countries spread all over the world and has never failed to devolve into a cruel, oppressive dystopia.
De Santis will never *call* himself a fascist, but it sure is walking and quacking like a duck. He's systematically silencing anyone who disagrees with him; it's not just Disney. Disney is the worst and most stupid example, but he now has people from the Department of Education sitting in schoolrooms to make sure nothing that conflicts with conservative values is being taught.
Oh, come on, try not to rave so much.
"He’s systematically silencing anyone who disagrees with him."
Really? I'm pretty sure that, if you're not drawing a government paycheck, you're free to disagree with him without being silenced. Even Disney isn't being silenced, they're just losing a sweet deal.
See, you're starting to have a bit of a "Boy who cried wolf" problem here: Suppose that DeSantis actually DID start silencing random people on the street? What would you say about it? "He’s systematically silencing anyone who disagrees with him." Oh, wait, you were already saying that!
You really want to avoid exaggerating about these things, it leaves you no headroom to escalate your rhetoric if things actually DO get bad.
Also, I've previously noted the monster hunter dynamic here; If DeSantis really was a fascist despot, what aren't you entitled to do to oppose him? I mean, people tried to assassinate Hitler, and we admire them, right?
Aren't you telling people with a shorter fuse than you to start taking pot shots at him?
I do not support political assassination, at least not unless conditions get far more grave than they currently are.
We have Disney being harassed by the DeSantis legislature. We have schoolteachers having people from the Department of Education camped out in their classrooms to make sure they don't say anything offensive to conservatives. We have gay pride events being cancelled because of the risk of criminal charges if a minor gets within earshot of it. We have drag queen story hour being banned by the legislature. How much do you need before even you can tell which way the wind is blowing.
All of these are small, discrete steps, but how do you think Mussolini got started? You think the Nuremberg laws were passed on a clean slate?
Now, I'm not as worried as I may have let on, because I think it's only a matter of time until De Santis implodes. I think he currently holds the highest office he's ever going to hold. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have his sights on more and more restrictions on speech he doesn't like.
You’ve jumped the shark.
I'm not saying you're up for some assassination, not yet. I'm saying that you're sending signals to people with a lower threshold for doing that.
Yes, we do have Disney being harassed by the Florida legislature, largely at DeSantis' urging. Much as the NRA is being harassed by NY, for instance, except that DeSantis doesn't seem to be trying to put Disney out of business. I'm not saying that's ideal, but companies with sweet deals from states should probably be a little more circumspect about inserting themselves into state politics, just as a prudential matter.
Yeah, you have government school teachers, being told by their employer what they'll do during work hours. Cry me a river. That's not fascism, that's normal life, I don't know why they ever expected in the first place that they could continue to offend the voters' sensibilities on the taxpayer's dime.
And, yeah, you have public exhibitions of obscenity worried about getting in trouble about being seen by a child. People get put on the sex offender list for getting caught pissing in public, and you really expect that to be risk free?
Really, you have a very weird idea of what qualifies as "fascism."
"Disney being harassed"
Poor multi billion dollar corporation.
Calling DeSantis a fascist over a dispute with one shitty company warps the word fascist so much as to make it devoid of any meaning. This and the existence of trans people show you’re caught up in hysterics today.
"sure smells like fascism"
You should se a doctor, your sense of smell is quite bad.
Disney’s deal with Florida to create an enclave where the corporation was the law -not only on Disney property but on the public streets and residents' property - sure smelled like fascism.
I'm not aware of any Right Wing Authorization Execution fantasies being proposed here, but I might have missed a few.
Got any examples?
May 1 was first adopted by the labor unions to commemorate the Haymarket Square riots in Chicago. So it's always struck me as odd that we are the one country where "Labo(u)r Day" is a different date.
A post about the riots would not be out of place here, I think, even though only some of the participants were Communists.
Riots were May 4th...
https://www.history.com/topics/19th-century/haymarket-riot
Well, so, that makes May Day something else commies stole...
It was the communists who suggested and pushed for May 1st as 'Labor Day'.
(Labor Day in the US is actually older than the "international" May 1st 'Labor Day')
I disagree with Ilya here -- it's not a centralized economy that does this but abandonment of Locke's concept of individual God-given rights.
FDR had an economy that was every bit as centralized as Hitler's -- the difference was that we didn't abandon God and we didn't abandon Locke.
The difference is that he hadn't managed to get rid of every other power center in society. He sure as hell wanted to, though.
Hitler's centralized economy was not the cause of the Holocaust. It was his fanatical racial ideology.
Countries fighting world wars tend to centralize their economies. It helps a lot.
Well, sure, but his elimination of competing power centers was essential to being able to pull it off.
I mean, FDR threw Japanese Americans into concentration camps, but I seriously doubt he could have gotten away with genociding them. Hitler could, because, who was in a position to stop him?
Arguing FDR was genocidal but just prevented from doing so by America's system is Brett's usual telepathic villainy detector doing its 'all liberals are Stalins' thing.
Well you have to admit ethnic concentration camps are a good first step.
They sucked, but bootstrapping that into "FDR and Hitler have about the same character" is just laughable.
"Well you have to admit ethnic concentration camps are a good first step."
Back when calling Border Patrol detainment facilities 'concentration camps', I took Sarcastro to task for that. Comparisons like that cheapen the Holocaust. Now I'll take you to task for the same reason.
Interning the Japanese was completely unjustified, but not even in the same league as Auschwitz.
For one differentiation, Auschwitz inmates weren't volunteering to serve in the Wehrmacht, but Nisei, including camp inmates, were volunteering for what became the most decorated unit in the US Army.
I'm saying that even if he had been, he would have been stopped, because circa WWII America still had substantial competing power centers, despite FDR's best efforts to centralize power. Whereas Hitler had eliminated competing power centers, and so could largely do as he pleased.
I've no doubt that FDR was a kinder, gentler fascist, only going so far as imprisoning disfavored minorities, and confiscating their property, (But in that regard, were they so different from Americans who'd owned gold?) without aspiring to outright killing them. But he came a lot closer to being a genuine fascist than DeSantis, by any objective measure.
Your definition of fascist is dumb and bad, and your counterfactual on FDR is the same.
What we know indicates he was not a fascist; the rest is you speculating like you do; it has zero fact to it.
FDR, to his discredit, issued the Executive Order for internment. But the congress passed a bill to enforce it (HR 6758, March 1942). I tried to find out what the votes was, but maybe they didn't do a roll call vote?? So there is blame to share.
I believe in God, but I also don't think that but for that belief I'd be a murdering madman.
It's May 1st. That means it's time for Volokh commenters to take the day off from advocating for the genocide of immigrants, transgender people, Black Lives Matter supporters, and even just plain-old liberals to have their annual circlejerk about how their political opponents are actually the *real* killers.
You have a rich fantasy life. I haven’t seen anyone here advocating for the genocide of anyone.
You’re confusing this board with China and the Uyghurs.
Well. BCD does give the impression that if someone else committed mass murder against various categories of "those people", he wouldn't exactly object
I, uh, don’t see that guy’s posts.
Ed talks openly about shooting illegals on sight, although he doesn’t explain how you identify them by sight. Which is ridiculously cruel and inhumane, but still doesn’t qualify as genocide.
I have a lot of the hard core righties muted but still I don’t see any of the responses talking about genocide. Teefah was engaging in massive overstatement. There are enough legit things to criticize the right so it doesn’t help to just make things up.
As always, the VC comentariat proves why this day is like Communism itself - a good sounding idea, destroyed in implementation by how humans work.
1) Victims of Communism Day - YES.
2) Holding it on May 1 - NO. May Day should be cheerful and optimistic.
Every day should be cheerful and optimistic.
Every day, in every way, I'm feeling better and better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Cou%C3%A9
I've probably mentioned this before, but my Mother in Law was a victim of Communism.
When she was just 13 the Khmer Rouge completed their takeover of Phnom Penh and the rest of Cambodia. Her father never came home and she never saw him again.
The rest of her family, Mother and 3 younger siblings, were rounded up, and then her mother was sent to one camp, she and her siblings were marched to a commune in Battambong almost 200 miles on foot.
When they got to "the commune" they farmed rice and vegetables for 4 years of manual labor. The only way to survive on the rations they were given is to eat anything edible they found in the fields, snails, lizards, insects, frogs, and eat it raw, because anyone that brought something back to the huts to cook would be informed on and beaten or killed.
I think this just shows that "victim of communism" has become a meaningless concept. The terribleness in Cambodia was very different from what happened in China, or Russia, or Romania, or Cuba, or East Germany etc. I'm not even sure you could accurately call each instance "collectivist." You certainly couldn't call any of them Marxist, since Marx was writing about and predicting the fall of capitalism in the wealthy industrial countries, not in places like Nicaragua.
Victims of communism are victims of whom? The post mentions the "Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia," so is each and every krasnoarmiich a perpetrator of the victimhood? After all, Trotsky's Red Army was wildly popular -- Russians screamed "YIMBY!" so loudly that it frightened folks in Germany enough to freely support Hitler's alternative ideology.
Victims of communism are victims of their forebears and of themselves. I agree that we should have a day to recall the stupidity of popular yet misguided leaders and to remember the effects such stupidity can have on future generations; however, we cannot forget that the "victims" of Communism invited the victimhood.
They all wore short skirts?
If the victims of *Leninist* socialism invited their own victimhood, did the victims of *National* Socialism do so, as well?
It’s not, but the reason is that neither Xi nor the modern CCP are true ideological totalitarians. They are more like Bellmore’s authoritarians – primarily concerned with suppressing opposition and keeping their power. Keep your head down and you can do lots of things including choosing a career, take in a wide range of entertainment if it isn’t political, start a business and get rich, etc.
A better comparison would be living under Putin vs Kim Jong Un.
"On what ways is ordinary life in Putin’s Russia that much better than Xi’s China?"
Depends. Are you an Uyghur? Aside from Putin's campaign of kidnapping Ukrainian children to adopt out to childless Russian families, I haven't heard that Russia was currently engaged in an internal genocide.
China, of course, can't say as much.
For a while China was trending away from totalitarian, towards authoritarian, or at least seemed to be. Xi sure turned that around.
Well, 'conscript your people and send them to die in large numbers in a war of personal aggrandizement' may or may not meet any particular definition of genocide, but it is producing a lot of dead Russians. And Ukrainians.
Granted, but it's regrettably too common to, as a practical matter, fall under the term "genocide".
Absolutely true. Strongmen can send you to die at the front. I can imagine if you are Russian, you are going anything you can to avoid this fate. No one said having a strong man is "good" result.
That being said: Russia has a rough population of about 143 million people and about 7000 direct war dead. Compare and contrast to someplace like Vietnam after the Americans pulled out. They had a population of about 39 million at that point. The communists promptly slaughtered between 50,000 - 200,000 of them with up to about 120,000 of them reportedly still detained into the 1980s. Honestly, the personal aggrandizement is looking positively appealing compared to the remaking of society in the "right" image.
Also, is anyone other than Russia downplaying Russian casualties and atrocities ? For things like Vietnam, it was a left wing badge of honor to pronounce the deaths were "exaggerated" and the real culprit is the US.
Wait until they start using "gaslighting" incorrectly again.