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Texas Will Test Whether Kennedy v. Bremerton Abrogated Engel v. Vitale, Stone v. Graham, and Wallace v. Jaffree
And good luck challenging the law. The Texas Senate passed an S.B. 8-like bulletproof bill for prayer in school.
Kennedy v. Bremerton overruled the Lemon test. Sort of. Justice Gorsuch's majority opinion did not come out to formally overrule that case. Indeed, the question presented did not even concern the Establishment Clause. That issue only rose indirectly. Rather, the Court deemed Lemon as "abandoned." That much is clear. But the Court did more than inter that Burger-era precedent. The Court also seemed to undermine the coercion test. This plank of Establishment Clause jurisprudence stretches back to Engel v. Vitale (1962). That Warren-era precedent held that the government cannot subject students to indirect coercion with regard to religion. Even exposing students to prayer in the classroom, without requiring them to participate, could be sufficiently coercive to violate the Establishment Clause.
This line of precedent carried for the course of six decades. Lee v. Weisman (1992) held that clergy could not offer prayers at a high school graduation ceremony. In Lee, the Court recognized that "there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools." And "prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion." The Court observed that "adolescents are often susceptible to peer pressure, especially in matters of social convention." Therefore, "the State may no more use social pressure to enforce orthodoxy than it may use direct means." Attendance at the graduation ceremony was optional, but "to say a teenage student has a real choice not to attend her high school graduation is formalistic in the extreme." Due to that risk of "indirect coercion," the prayer at graduation violated the Establishment Clause. Eight years later, Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000) reached a similar result. The Court held that schools could not permit students to select and lead prayers before football games. The "delivery of a pregame prayer ha[d] the improper effect of coercing those present to participate in an act of religious worship."
Kennedy, however took a decidedly different approach to identifying "coercion" in Establishment Clause cases. In Kennedy, a high school football coach would quietly pray after games at the fifty-yard line. Some players from both teams would pray with him. The coach was disciplined, in part, because the school worried that the prayers violated the Establishment Clause. The Court disagreed. It held that the coach's prayers were within the bounds of the Establishment Clause. Here, there was "no evidence that students ha[d] been directly coerced to pray with Kennedy." And students who voluntarily choose to participate in the prayers were not necessarily coerced. It did not matter that some students were bothered or felt excluded by the prayers. The Court stated that "[o]ffense . . . does not equate to coercion." Justice Sotomayor dissented in Kennedy. She wrote that the majority "applie[d] a nearly toothless version of the coercion analysis" from Lee and Santa Fe. Sotomayor added that the Court "fail[ed] to acknowledge the unique pressures faced by students when participating in school-sponsored activities."
After Kennedy was decided, I wrote that Lee and Santa Fe were abrogated. But what about earlier cases, stretching back to Engel? Abington School District v. Schempp (1963) held that teachers cannot recite passages of the Bible or the Lord's Prayer, without comment, at the start of each school day. Stone v. Graham (1980) held that classrooms cannot post the Ten Commandments, which are "plainly religious in nature." Wallace v. Jaffree (1985) held that public schools cannot hold a moment of silence "for meditation or voluntary prayer." Are Engel, Schempp, Stone, and Jaffree abrogated? Or should those cases be overruled because they are "egregiously" wrong? (Thomas Bickel makes the latter case in the Harvard JLPP).
The Texas Senate recently passed two bills that could require the courts to answer those questions. SB 1515 is a frontal challenge to Stone, as well as McCreary County:
A public elementary or secondary school shall display in a conspicuous place in each classroom of the school a durable poster or framed copy of the Ten Commandments that meets the requirements of Subsection.
Indeed, the bill requires a specific version of the Decalogue to be used:
"The Ten Commandments I AM the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven images. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is thy neighbor's."
And schools can accept privately-donated framed copies of the Tenth Amendment. This bill would have been dead on arrival during the Warren Court. But that was a different era. Someone should go check Arlington Cemetery. There is probably some stirring in the grave of Hugo Black.
The second bill, SB 1396, is a frontal challenge to Engel, Schempp, and Jaffree. The bill allows school districts to adopt a policy that would "provide students and employees with an opportunity to participate in a period of prayer and reading of the Bible or other religious text on each school day." I am doubtful that large school districts in Austin or Dallas would adopt such a policy. But smaller districts will likely consider such a policy. Indeed, there are guardrails in the bill that make it very difficult to challenge.
The only students who will even exposed to the bill are students whose parents want them to be exposed to the prayer. Parents or guardians would be required to sign a consent form for their child to be exposed to the prayer. And that consent form is an express waiver of the right to bring a lawsuit!
A policy adopted under Subsection (a) must prohibit . . . a student or employee of the school district or open-enrollment charter school from being permitted to participate in the period of prayer and reading of the Bible or other religious text unless the employee or parent or guardian of the student submits to the district a signed consent form that includes . . . signed consent form that includes…. an express waiver of the person's right to bring a claim under state or federal law arising out of the adoption of a policy under this section, including a claim under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or a related state or federal law, releasing the district or school and district or school employees from liability for those claims brought in state or federal court;
What about students whose parents do not sign the form? The bill ensures these students will not be able to even hear the prayer. The policy must ensure the prayer is not read "in the physical presence of, within the hearing of, or in another manner which would constitute an injury in fact within the meaning of the United States or Texas Constitution on a person for whom a signed consent form has not been submitted." Indeed, the prayer cannot be read "over a public address system." To put it bluntly, this bill makes it impossible for children of objecting parents to even hear the prayer!
But wait a minute? Didn't Lee and other cases hold that it is unfair to exclude students from activities like graduation? How can it be constitutional that objecting-students can simply be excluded from classroom activities? The bill provides a few responses. The prayer "may not be a substitute for instructional time." Moreover, the prayer may be read "before normal school hours." And the prayer may be read "only in classrooms or other areas in which a consent form under Subsection (b)(1) has been submitted for every
employee and student." In other words, objecting students can still complete 100% of their usual classroom activities. Plus, the Attorney General will defend any school district sued under this bill, and the state will cover any expenses. Thus school boards can adopt a policy without fear of liability.
This bulletproof bill is like S.B. 8 for prayer in school. Good luck finding any plaintiffs who actually suffers an Article III injury. The bill makes it virtually impossible for objecting students to challenge the policy in court. And even if someone suffers an injury, under Kennedy, indirect coercion, such as the risk of exclusion, is not sufficient to state an Establishment Clause claim.
If these bills are enacted, federal judges in Texas will have a choice. They cannot overrule Engel and its progeny. But could federal judges deem Engel and its progeny abrogated by Kennedy? Recall that the Fifth Circuit Dobbs panel declared unconstitutional the Mississippi abortion ban, as it was bound to do so under Roe and Casey. But Kennedy alters the constitutional calculus. Texas, once again, will push the vanguard of constitutional law and standing law.
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The Left will not be stopped due to lack of any general or particularized injury. Their objection is to religion (meaning Christianity) itself, and they will do everything in their power -- and not in their power -- to stop it. But they will inevitably fail.
How dare the Left to oppose my freedom to endorse a particular version of Christianity as state religion?
And of course you don't see the self-contradiction, namely that you decide what is Christian and what isn't. The 'version' comment just shows you have no self-awareness.
Wait, what? Are you claiming that there is only one version of Christianity? Or that the Texan senate didn't choose one?
The King James Bible is 1) Christian and 2)recognized by some particular subsets of Christianity but not some others as the ultimate and umutable version of the scripture.
Which of these two claims seems wrong to you?
Religion (meaning Christianity).
Is there any evidence that “the left” even objects to SB 1396? I don’t see very much objectionable about it, assuming Josh’s synopsis here is accurate.
The problem with 1396, if there is one, is its requirement for people to sign away their constitutional rights in order to participate. That’s a pretty un-American gambit that you’d think the right wouldn’t countenance let alone celebrate.
Whatever it takes to own dem libs!
Hear hear. I mean, what could possibly be more American and apple pie than voluntarily signing up to participate in an optional activity outside of normal school hours, then turning around and suing the school for violating your constitutional rights by offering it?
Seriously, maybe it's just crystal clear to you what sort of good-faith participant would have the least shred of desire to reserve their right to sue the school on Establishment grounds. Feel free to expound if so. To me, it just looks like a common-sense measure to make it more difficult for the inevitable contrived legal challenges by people who just can't abide by the fact that somebody, somewhere, is engaging in a religious act while inside the school's geofence.
Where do you get outside of normal school hours? (I see may be read "before normal school hours" but not may be read "only before".)
A child could in good faith be signed up with the parents expecting a particular kind of prayer and then discover after the fact that it’s some variant that they view as heretical.
Not sure what cause of action that could even be, but in any event it's certainly not an Establishment Clause issue, right? Beyond that, I guess I'm still lacking enough imagination to envision a school district that would choose to implement this in the first place (slice 1) where the exact content of the prayer would devolve into a sectarian battle (slice 2) and whose combatants would then want to resort to litigation (slice 3).
Given the specific version of the Ten Commandments in the other law, it seems entirely possible that this could occur. It really depends on how specific the signed consent form is, and whether they stick to it precisely.
So we've now fully departed the zone of constitutional rights and are trying to envision a contorted corner case someone might want to sue? I'll grant you there's a non-zero probability.
With that: what would the cause of action be, and (now that we've moved past Randall's original stated concern re constitutional rights) so what?
Well, as SimonP pointed out, this'll hurt Christians more than anyone. Imagine a devout Catholic family that thinks this is a great idea and signs up, only to find the material to be militantly Protestant and anti-Catholic. That might make for a legitimate lawsuit, except that they were forced to sign away their rights.
The law rather deviously provides that, if you provide consent but then later withdraw it - your main recourse if you don't like how the district is running the school prayer-time program - you're still to be bound by the waiver of the right to sue the district over the program.
Josh is really burying the lede, here.
Though we're straying just a bit from your original wistful appeal to constitutional rights, as far as I know there's not a cause of action for "wasn't my brand of prayer."
A pointless point, as if a Catholic family weren't able to control anything else!! A few hundred years of Presidents making days of prayer and no one says "wasn't my brand of prayer" !!!
They probably should have done, because all of those were Establishment Clause violations too. (Although the Supreme Court would have found a way to say otherwise.)
Can one sign away one’s right to bring a lawsuit? I don’t think any such disclaimer would be valid. If you could really “choose to alienate” your “inalienable” right to petition the government for a redress of a grievance, wouldn’t surgeons and hospitals be pressuring patients to sign such waivers as a condition of treating them??? I remember the 1980s when malpractice insurance rates were crushing all the independent surgeons, forcing them into HMOs and other salaries positions where they couldn’t bill whatever fees they wanted, and everyone seemed to agree that the idea of making patients sign, or even offering patients the option of signing, such wavers was a non-starter, a violation of the Constitution.
I fail to see why any religious doctrine needs to be in a school. Church takes care of that. Or are we advocating that churches teach algebra?
The real question is who blew up the Georgia GuideStones?
They love religion when it's Moose-lims killing Westerners.
A public elementary or secondary school shall display in a conspicuous place in each classroom of the school a durable poster or framed copy of the Ten Commandments that meets the requirements of Subsection.
So ALL students are subjected to this government mandated endorsement of a specific religion.
How can it be constitutional that objecting-students can simply be excluded from classroom activities? The bill provides a few responses. The prayer "may not be a substitute for instructional time." Moreover, the prayer may be read "before normal school hours." And the prayer may be read "only in classrooms or other areas in which a consent form under Subsection (b)(1) has been submitted for every employee and student."
So students who don't want to pray are kicked out of class? That's even more exclusionary than the unconstitutional endorsement of religion by the coach in Kennedy vs Bremerton.
This bulletproof bill is like S.B. 8 for prayer in school.
Funny how proud Blackman is when Republicans think they figure out ways to ignore their Constitution.
"Funny how proud Blackman is when Republicans think they figure out ways to ignore their Constitution."
I would call it exactly the kind of pathetic display of partisan stupidity everyone has come to expect from him.
The most laughable lie he's ever written was claiming several years ago that he had any kind of 'guardrails' that guided his belief system.
Blackman's only purpose here is to sully the reputation of the knowledgeable professors who otherwise make up this blog. Luckily for him, it's the only thing he's qualified to do.
Blackman’s only purpose here is to sully the reputation of the knowledgeable professors
I disagree. I believe Blackman was brought aboard to (1) expand this blog’s audience of superstitious gay-bashers, Republican racists, old-timey misogynists, half-educated immigrant-haters, backward Islamophobes, etc. and (2) help Prof. Volokh try to own the libs -- because, I sense, the proprietor was dissatisfied by efforts of Prof. Kerr and a few others in that regard -- during the time these disaffected culture war losers have remaining until replacement.
And your purpose is to lubricate the rears of hundreds of other men.
Every time you do that, haterd of gays GROWS.
I used to object to Josh Blackman, but I’ve grown quite fond of him. He’s the Punch-character on VC. The clown who gets beaten up- like Alan Colmes from Hannity & Colmes, or like Beckmesser in Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMS77qr_FCQ&t=49m03s
I don't think the public schools should push sectarian religious dogma, but I don't think the 10 commandments is any more sectarian or dogma than "In God we Trust" on currency.
But of course some people will take it too far, and rub it into other peoples faces:
"As a 3rd grade teacher, I often talk about Jesus with my students, they are so excited to hear about my faith. They point to the cross on wall and ask me about the resurrection.
Some have gotten baptized in the sink, as long as they don’t tell their parents. It’s our secret"
https://twitter.com/CarpeDonktum/status/1646376957637001221
I don’t mean this offensively, but are you a fucking idiot?
Standard Volokh Conspiracy fan.
I don’t think the 10 commandments is any more sectarian or dogma than “In God we Trust” on currency.
Let's see.
From the OP:
I AM the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven images. Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Nothing sectarian, nosiree.
Let's see... There's only one god, that god wants you, the kindergartener, to know what coveting a wife is and what adultery is, and that god wants you to know that "manservants" and "wives" are property.
This is what conservative Christians think non-Christian kids need to know? What if a parent doesn't want their child exposed to coveting, adultery, and excuses for chattel slavery and marriage?
This sort of classroom display would be illegal in Florida on "gender identity" grounds.
At least the S.B. 8 architects were actually trying to reduce abortions. This is pure trolling.
(No wonder Prof. Blackman is a fan!)
If only that had focused on unwanted pregnancies instead.
The prayer bill just might be full of enough procedural trickery to let the Supreme Court to pretend it isn't endorsing religion by wanking off about pluralism ans tolerance like in Kennedy.
But forcing every classroom to put up verses from a particular protestant version of the Bible is basically forcing the court to the same position as the abortion pill case: either just declare that yes, conservative Christianity is the national religion or back down. There are probably two votes for the former option on the court, but not more.
"there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools."
What a shame the same concerns do not apply to CRT and grooming.
This is just fucking absurd. And Josh is all in. The "vanguard?" WTF? sounds reactionary to me.
No coercion. Right. And they are going to use Kennedy - a case built on lies. Fitting.
Look, religious people. I understand it's important to you to pray.
So get your lazy ass out of bed a few minutes early and pray before you leave home. Nobody's business.
What does upset a lot of people is the government taking sides against Christianity.
And its clear they do.
For instance you have the "government":
1) funding Robert Mapplethorpe putting a crucifix in a beaker full of urine and putting the photograph in a Museum.
2) firing a professor for showing a devout painting of Mohammed fro. One sect of Islam because students from another sect found it blasphemous.
3. A football coach being fired for taking a 10 minute break to pray after a game.
4. A pastor arrested for a planned Koran burning.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/09/11/221528510/pastor-terry-jones-arrested-before-planned-quran-burning
Sure different levels of government different places, but show me the government grant to paint Mohammed in a beaker of urine. The professor fired for casting doubt on the resurrection even if some students found it blasphemous. The football coach fired for telling his players no praying on the field before or after the game. Or anyone arrested for planning a public bible burning.
The government isn't obliged to go creating equivalences just to salve your wounded sense of entitlement. Nor are artists.
You're full of shit, Kazinski. Don't lie.
Do you have a list of every art work that has ever been funded by the government? If not, STFU about Mappplethorpe.
Hamline University is a private school.
No. Kennedy wasn't fired for praying after a game.
Jones was not arrested for "planning a Koran burning."
From your link:
The Tampa Tribune reports:
"When he and another pastor were pulled over by Polk County sheriff's deputies near the small town of Mulberry, their pickup bed was full of kerosene-soaked Qurans - and they were towing a large, barbeque-style grill behind the truck.
"The arrest happened shortly before 5 p.m., when Jones was scheduled to burn the Quarans - one for every victim of the terrorist attacks - at a public park just outside Mulberry."
The Polk County Ledger reports that county officials had previously denied a permit for the event. The paper reports that in a press conference Sheriff Grady Judd said Jones had been stopped because his trailer did not have a license plate and he has been charged with "unlawful conveyance of fuel and unlawful carry of a firearm."
Essentially, Judd said, Jones was driving a "bomb" down the road.
The first kid that prays to something other than the god of the Bible is going to test that law and the assumptions behind it. Or raise their hand and ask about "manservants."
I cannot wait to see what the Satanic Temple does here. If they donate a Satanic version of the 10-commandments and it's rejected for not being Christian, that could get fun, too.
The prayer bill is much like allowing students to form religious clubs. Unlike showing the Ten Commandmants, allowing a choose-your-own-text religious reading club is not on its face favoring any one religion.
But you concede too much. If it were a Bible as Literature club , no one would have standing. This just fosters duplicity and contempt for the law. You want a club, you should have the club. Joining is your vote for it, and not joining is your vote against it -- and why should there be more than that??
If it were a Bible as Literature club , no one would have standing.
They would if the school’s policy (or the state’s) was to allow Bible clubs but not Quran clubs or Talmud clubs.
This is an anti-club-- the whole classroom joins in by default and you are forced into temporary exile from your friends. You don't have to take any positive action to attend but rather have to take positive action not to.
Never mind endorsement of religion, how is it not an equal protection violation to favor one sect over another? Surely there are sacred texts from the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and Pastafarian traditions that adherents of those faiths might like to see honored on classroom walls.
The concept of school prayer-time inherently incorporates a certain type of prayer/religious study, which takes for granted that it may be performed anywhere, at any time, within the bounds permitted by the law.
So it's hard to see how the law isn't essentially anti-Islam. An observant Muslim might typically have one to three prayers falling within a typical school day, at specifically-prescribed times. A school prayer-time schedule set before or after school, say, or a set-aside time during an extended lunch period, while permitted by the law and consistent with commonplace Christian attitudes on prayer, won't be as suitable (if compatible at all) with Muslim practices. Christians will be permitted to pray at school, with the endorsement of the district. Muslims will continue to have to seek separate accommodation.
Well they did choose a Jewish text, that’s a minority religion, and it’s a sacred text revered by Christians and Muslims alike, and hardly offensive to Buddhists, or Confusions.
I can see opposing it because it’s religious at all, not because the 10 commandments just promotes Christianity.
Those with ignorant religious prejudices should read more on the subject:
“ The Ten Commandments are the well-known instructions, the essence of the Torah, which Allah revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai, peace and blessings be upon him. The commandments prohibit the major sins of idolatry, impiety, disrespect for parents, murder, theft, adultery, false witness, and envy.
These commandments are among the core teachings of Judaism and Christianity that are taught to children at an early age, and all of them are included within the teachings of Islam. Some believe these commands go back as far as the seven laws of Noah, peace and blessings be upon him.”https://www.abuaminaelias.com/ten-commandments-in-islam/
I’m an atheist myself, and I find nothing offensive about the Ten Commandments and I’m sure none of the several Muslim girlfriends I’ve had would either.
Neither would my wife who is a devout Buddhist, in fact she’s at the Pagoda now.
The 10 Commandments starts off, “you shall have no other gods before me.” Right there it’s offensive to polytheists, non-theists and those whose mono- is a god other than Jehovah or possibly Allah. That you choose not to be offended doesn’t mean someone who is doesn’t have good reason to be.
Well Buddhists and Confusionists don’t have a God, so I don’t think they’re going to feel their god deserves top billing.
Certainly Hindus would have a beef with schools (but probably would be more upset about hamburgers in the cafeteria).
But as I said oppose the 10 commandments because it’s religious at all, don’t try to pull out your Koran, Torahs, sutras, vedas, koans, and I-ching to try to devine how others would find it blasphemous, because you are probably going to be laughably wrong.
And as you may know, it can't be the basis of any court decisions anyway because ironically, basing a decision on the doctrines of any religion also violates the first amendment.
The point remains that all sects are not being treated equally so it’s an equal protection violation.
Do you even know what equal protection means?
You could have 100 courts rule on this issue, and rule 20 different ways, and not one of them is going to cite the 14th's equal protection clause, and if the did they got their law school diploma out of a cereal box.
'Confusionists'
I might be down with that creed.
Since there are only three religions, I guess you are all set. Though as DMN noted below there are some translation choices that will trip you up with your all Abrahamic Ten Commandmemts are the same.
I’m a Christian and this is trolling via light theocratic gestures. It’s not cool.
I'm an atheist so religious trolling is way cool. Especially trolling faux Christian concern trolls.
I hope you aren't going to start atheist bashing now.
That’s not being an atheist, that’s being an asshole plus being unable to tell the difference between the government and an individual.
The King James Bible is not a Jewish text, you frigging muppet.
I can see opposing it because it’s religious at all, not because the 10 commandments just promotes Christianity.
Different religions, even different flavours of Christianity, have different versions of the commandments.
By specifying the text the bill endorses a specific version of Christianity.
But even if it didn't, the purpose is very clear, to signal a government endorsement of Christianity. The text itself isn't objectionable, it's the message behind placing the text in schools that sends a clear message that Christians are privileged above others.
But that puts students in the background as well as parents.
This country is Biblically-founded.
IF you had a History class you would know the : the “twin relics of barbarism”: slavery and polygamy
This country is Biblically-founded.
It really isn't.
IF you had a History class you would know the : the “twin relics of barbarism”: slavery and polygamy
Tell me you've never actually read the Bible without telling me you've never actually read the Bible.
I've long maintained that the best way to get people to stop believing the Bible is to get them to actually read it.
You're telling us that the Southern slaveholders, forced to free their slaves by force of arms, weren't Christians?
I'll take "things that the Bible is A-OK with but are against modern morals" for 100.
"A public elementary or secondary school shall display in a conspicuous place in each classroom [the Ten Commandments, verbatim from the Bible]" -- I'm not a lawyer, but how can this not violate the Establishment clause?
Christians pushing for the display of the Ten Commandments - clearly motivated by their own religious beliefs - often make the argument that they have a secular, historical significance, as well, claiming that they somehow underlie our legal system or the very concept of law itself.
This is... never explained in much detail. But that's the usual claim, always made by people who seem very, very motivated by their non-historical, non-secular beliefs.
Not "the" Ten Commandments. A Ten Commandments. As Blackman alludes to but glosses over, this law picks one religion's version. The Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant versions of the 10Cs are different.
Yes. And don't overlook the fact that commandments 1-4 have little to do with common moral behavior, but rather prescribe a specific religious point of view.
False in the extreme and they were never understood that way, quite the opposite.
You sever religion from reason : They prescribe nothing. If you don't accept Judaism you do not enter the covenant. No force at all
And that appears MANY times in the BIble
18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”
19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.
So your theory is that all Christians are Jews? That's surprising...
Ostensible adults arguing about fairy tales.
'My fairy tale can beat up your fairy tale.'
'My fairy tale can beat up every other fairy tale.'
'My fairy tale is true, and children must be taught this.'
What a bunch of fucking losers. Gullible, low-quality, destined-for-replacement losers.
We were taught something close to that in my church. It was like... Christians are the subset of people who who believe in the old testament, aka Jews, who also believe in the new testament.
Yeah, that's true for about the first 50 years of Christianity, until St. Paul's Great Rebranding. Once Christians decided that Jesus was just kidding when he said (Matthew 5:18) that he wasn't going to change the (Jewish) Law, that argument is becoming pretty difficult to maintain.
Yeah, I learned a similar thing in school: the big difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is which prophet you stop at.
But like many things taught to kids and teens, it's a gross simplification of the subject matter and while superficially it may appear accurate, there is so much nuance being glossed over that it's damn-near a lie.
Which is to say... if you treat Judaism as merely proto-Christianity, and assume that the big difference between the two is the New Testament, then you simply don't know much about Judaism.
"Judge" Roy Moore will be watching the 10C bill and outcomes with interest...
Actually worked out better that the Judge took it in the balls, D's got a lame duck Senator, who couldn't beat a former Auburn Football Coach, (did beat Bama 6 years in a row (HT Shula/Probation)
And even if he had won, no doubt would have had a Sex Scandal,
OTOH, don't see what the big deal about the 10 Commandments is,
Frank "What if I just jerk off to my neighbors wife's ass"
Judge Roy Moore watches anything concerning secondary school females with interest.
What Heterosexual male doesn't?
Your moronic chortling aside, Josh, it seems to me the main people potentially holding the short end of the school prayer-time stick are going to be religious parents who opt their kids into the program but then find them being indoctrinated to believe things they don't accept.
I don't see much ingenious trickery going on here. If you're irreligious, you withhold consent for your kids' participation in the school prayer-time, they don't have to go (and whatever "social pressure" your kids might otherwise feel is beside the point - they don't participate). The bill avoids a constitutional problem by stopping short of causing a constitutional injury, for them. This isn't a cynically-derived scheme to trample existing constitutional law by depriving potential plaintiffs of a suitable defendant. It reads like a faithful application of Kennedy.
The only parents getting hosed are the ones who sign up for school prayer-time thinking their kids will be free to participate in a manner suiting their faith - and finding that only a version of Christian evangelism was really expected. Look for "coercion" in that context, when it comes to Mormon, Catholic, Jewish, etc., students.
How silly and unreflective to say "indoctrinated to believe things they don’t accept." You exclude eating vegetables, going to bed at a certain time, cleaning your room, doing your homework , and hundreds of other things. To not believe is not logically the same as to disbelieve !! Were your children born fully loaded with wisdom and facts and behavior? If so, what happened to you 🙂
I'm talking about a Catholic kid being told by a Protestant teacher that he shouldn't pray to the Virgin Mary, a Muslim told to pray from his desk, a Mormon mocked by a teacher for believing they'll inherit a planet after they die, etc.
Religious parents objecting to what their kids might be told/taught in the context of these school prayer-times. Which the law is almost designed to protect.
None of those things are beliefs.
The last time something like this was common in this country, Catholics had to form their own education system. That's what Catholics were willing to do to prevent Protestant Christianity taught to their kids in public schools.
Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Every time. Especially over sacred ignorance and dogmatic intolerance.
Choose reason. Every time. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so. By then, childhood indoctrination fades as an excuse for gullibility, ignorance, backwardness, superstition, and bigotry. By adulthood — this includes ostensible adulthood, even in the most desolate, can’t-keep-up backwaters of Texas — it is no excuse.
Choose reason. Every time. And progress, education, inclusiveness, modernity, freedom, and science. Avoid childish superstition, ignorance, insularity, bigotry, dogma, authoritarianism, and pining for “good old days” that never existed. Not 75 years ago. Not 175 years ago. Not 2,000 years ago, except in fairy tales suitable solely for small children and especially credulous adolescents (of all ages).
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Otherwise, you might wind up making clownish contributions to a bigot-hugging, fringe blog from a position as a professor at South Texas College Of Law Houston, which is ranked higher than six of the roughly two hundred American law schools.
Thank you.
I might use this dumb statement in my Logic class. Because "choose reason' can only mean 'choose what I say" -show me wrong in that.
What an unthinking clod you are
You seem superstitious, angry, disaffected, and obsolete.
OK, instead, how about: “Choose evidence-based decision making.” I mean, “Reason” is broader than that, but it’s a fundamental prerequisite.
The abandonment of that as a foundational principle, is one of the reasons I—by inherent temperament a natural conservative—have been unable to vote for a national GOPer since GHW Bush’s reelection attempt.
___________
Plus two others:
2. GOP evolution to complete dependence on the emotionally-obsessed populists of their racist/xenophobic wing and,
3. An unfortunate, ever-increasing attraction to theocratic authoritarianism.
Of course, those seem natural consequences of the first.
"Prefer the reality-based world to superstition" works, too.
"Choose reason" seems like a marketing slogan for Reason.com -- a very un-reason-able site.
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official "Legal" Blog of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Faye, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Ernest Angley, and Every Other Shit-Eating Televangelist and Disgusting, Lying Faith Healer Out There.
Coach Sandusky!!!!!!!! those were some of your biggest fans!!!!!!!!
Wonder how our totally sincere Catholic justices are going to react to legislative text mandating the public display of a very non-Catholic prohibition on “graven images.”
Speaking of preying in Schools (Get it? "Preying")
whatever happened to the Nashville Murderer's "Manifesto"??
He, She, ("She" had a Dick, so "She" is a "He", or is that only if "He" shaves "his" legs (HT L Reed) wrote a "Manifesto" it was widely reported, anticipated,
and then it's like
"Oh, No Manifesto"
actually that would be better, it's just vanished, like Pete Booty Judges Adopted Kids Mother....
I'm thinking it's got some things the current Marxist Stream Media doesn't want to hear, probably mentions N-words, F-words (Lesbians really don't like F-words in general)
Seriously folks, where's the Manifesto??, it's like Mass Murder, Manifesto, Unabomber had one, Breivik had one, Ted Kennedy had one (in the trunk of his Oldsmobile)
Frank
1515 doesn't even require coercion in order to be found unconstitutional. It's really per se establishment. Not going anywhere.
I don't think you'll find much objection to 1396 from the left. At least, I hope not. What's there to object to? My public high school has bible study extracurriculars and even a "bible as literature" elective class. No one cares.
I think there are current justices - and commenters here - who interpret establishment so narrowly that this wouldn't apply.
I dunno. The state endorsing a specific version of the ten commandments as legally favored is pretty OG establishment.
"And schools can accept privately-donated framed copies of the Tenth Amendment."
You mean the ten commandments, don't you?
That's some Today In Supreme Court History-level content. Did Prof. Barnett help Prof. Blackman with that sentence?
It might be a typo, but there are probably a lot of Blue states that explicitly ban any private funding of education on the constitution.
It's forbidden knowledge.
Probably? Did you actually check for an example?
Of course not.
This is the internet, not a law review.
The "probably" might have been a tell.
Seems to be a good way for you to look like a fool.
My response was an attempt to prod you to provide such an example, or at least explain why you thought it probable. Lacking an explanation, it's probably just an expression of your political preferences. And probably should have added "probably" to your second sentence.
What about taxpayer standing under the establishment clause?
Was Moses Christian?
No.
Not the one in the Torah. Only the Moses in a Bible with an inerrant New Testament overruling the only kinda inerrant Old Testament.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Moses is a fictional character.
Much like Frank Galvin, Bugs Bunny, Kent Dorfman, Foghorn Leghorn, Carol Danvers, and even the great Arthur Kirkland.
1396 is nothing like SB 8. SB 8 was designed to prevent pre-enforcement challenges, which is relatively unique to the abortion context. SB 8 absolutely impacted the constitutional rights of women as they existed at the time, and those women would’ve been able to put up a constitutional defense in court. The precedent set by such a defense would’ve operated to effectively nullify SB 8, it just would’ve taken a long time… so long that Dobbs mooted the whole situation first.
1396 does nothing of the kind. Instead, it tries very hard not to infringe on anyone’s constitutional rights. That’s what legislators are supposed to do! Josh, you’re like Chris Rock’s legendary urban father: “I take care of my kids.” “Good luck finding any plaintiffs who actually suffers an Article III injury.” You’re supposed to take care of your kids. You’re supposed to avoid causing Article III injuries.
SB 8 wasn’t at all about avoiding Article III injuries. There were injuries, and there was standing! There just wasn’t anyone to sue.
I feel like I could be a law professor at South Texas Houston!
I don't see any point to 1396 except bringing religious activities into the schools.
There is no bar to students or employees gathering on their own, outside of school, for prayer, religious study, or to play touch football, for that matter.
So what is it intended to accomplish?
It accomplishes nothing. It's obviously just more own-the-libs trolling like Noscitur said. But there's nothing forcing the left to take the bait. "I'm going to pray at you really hard on my own time and out of sight! Take that!" Ok...
Is it their own time?
What are other students to do during Superstition Time? Would school buses run early or late to accommodate the superstitious (and inconvenience those who are not gullible enough to participate in Superstition Time)?
It says it can’t be during “instruction” time, so that leaves before or after school or during lunch, or maybe some sort of free period.
There are lots of before-school and especially after-school programs, so figuring out the logistics of those is well-trod territory.
Religious indoctrination. The talibaning of America.
Teachers, with their state-authority hats still on, leading students in prayer.
That's what is banned by precedent, and what this bill allows.
Fact is, there is and was nothing stopping students from praying together. The only thing that was stopped was a teacher leading it.
Should we be upset about "state authority hats?" I don't know. What if a public-school teacher is also a Sunday-school teacher?
I don't think "knowing your teacher is Christian" is or should be illegal, and that would be the best hat-related line to draw.
Cool strawman. Have fun beating it up without me.
By "best" I simply meant cleanest. It's hard for me to see another easy line, but if you can think of one, by all means, let's hear it.
... we're talking about schools, religion, and the establishment clause, and you want an "easy line"? Sorry dude, but this is firmly in "the good is never simple, and the simple never good" territory.
Ok. A difficult line, whatever. What's your line? Can public school teachers be Sunday school teachers, for example?
If your principle is just "eh, I don't like it" then it's not very compelling to other people.
By the way, the answer to Blackman's question — "Whether Kennedy v. Bremerton Abrogated Engel v. Vitale, Stone v. Graham, and Wallace v. Jaffree" — is "no." That's not how it works. SCOTUS has expressly told lower courts that they are not to assume that one of its holdings overrules another unless the latter one expressly says so.
And then they've also berated those lower courts for doing exactly that rather than reading the tea leaves. In theory that's the rule but SCOTUS has been clear it's not what is expected in practice.
I can't say that it's never happened, but I don't recall ever seeing SCOTUS criticizing a lower court for following a Supreme Court ruling whose jurisprudential moorings had been undermined but that had never been formally overruled. What case(s) do you have in mind?
The Supreme Court will praise a lower court for following a Court precedent that the Court overrules in that same case (e.g., State Oil Co. v. Khan, 522 U.S. 3 (1997)). In Khan, a unanimous Supreme Court said:
The Court of Appeals was correct in applying that principle despite disagreement with Albrecht [v. Herald Co., 390 U. S. 145 (1968)], for it is this Court’s prerogative alone to overrule one of its precedents.
Welcome to the United States of Christ! Does anyone think Jesus would be pleased with these developments? After all, isn't he the guy who said something about praying in private to avoid looking like hypocrites? (I'm thinking of you, Coach Kennedy.)
Jesus would be crucified by modern Christians.
Original thought.
I did hear that in a Woody Guthrie song once, but he probably got it from you.
No , you are thinking of you and how wonderfully clever and liberal you hope to appear.If what you said were true at all it would be self-refuting since it was a very publicly praying Jesus that said that.
Are you equating Jesus -- also known as God -- to Coach Kennedy, who shows the world how humble and righteous he is by praying on his knees on the fifty-yard line in front of a crowd after a game? I'd be a lot more impressed if he stopped in a church and prayed privately after the game.
The 10 commandments can be knocked down to about 3.
They still are religious and have no business in schools. We aren't the Taliban. Yet.
Which statement of yours is ‘religious’, you clod. You can’t oppose a religious or moral statement without taking a religious or moral stand. But even more illogical is it to say that what reason opposes and religion opposes must be relligious. It is wrong to take an innocent life and that is a religous view too. It is wrong to steal and that is a religious view too. It is wrong to commit adultery and that is a religious view too.
Ignoring a Common Cause
A fallacy is an argument or belief based on erroneous reasoning. Ignoring a common cause is one type of fallacy. This fallacy happens when someone believes that one thing caused another, without considering another factor that could have caused both things. For example, you think that event 1 caused event 2 to happen. However, they both were actually caused by event 3.
Childhood Reader, the the Decalogue's last six commandants contain several things we both likely support. In the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV-the Bible edition likely most appropriate to the Texas Senate's target population), they are
These are examples of Golden Rulemorality—communitarian, social contract values independent of religion. Not sure where you get your faith (that is, belief without evidence) that my lack of faith in a Deity lessens my ability to abide by such a moral code.
But here are the Bible's first four commandants (ERV):
OK, first doesn't affect me (I worship none of the Gods humans have created in the own universe of different self-images, so no problem). But for the other three...Um...no, no, and no. Oh hell no. Those have nothing to do with a moral code, resembling nothing more closely than the angry, narcissistic tantrum of a vain, despotic caudillo (especially an SNL-level Trump: "I hate my people worshiping other gods. People who sin against me become my enemies, and I will punish them. And I will punish their children, their grandchildren, and even their great-grandchildren [sorry, Ron D. and Ron's great-grandchildren]. But I will be very kind to people who love me and obey my commands. I will be kind to their families..." [even those whose wives he calls ugly, so you may be in luck, Ted C.).
Tell you what, let's just both agree that The Six Commandants could be defensible as capturing part of a fairly universal Golden-Rule-based moral code. Indeed, much of their content is captured in our non-religious, government-enforced legal statutes.
So, please feel free to keep the Four Angry Commands inside your own belief system and enforce them solely with people who agree to abide by them. I'll continue, however, to work to keep them out of government, to include government authority figures advocating for them in publicly-funded schools.
"10. You must not want to take your neighbor’s house. You must not want his wife. And you must not want his men and women servants or his cattle or his donkeys. You must not want to take anything that belongs to another person."
The whole "don't take your neighbors belongings" with a list that includes "manservant" and "wife" is problematic and undermines the universality of this final commandment.
That's the reason for the caveat before Universal. And...ummm...gender discrimination is not the heart of the problem. For example, several Bible versions don't use the word servant, but slave (all are are thy/thee/thou versions). So, pick your version! A few use spouse instead of wife, and the single word servant with no modifiers. And employment of servants is not exactly egalitarian in the first place.
Ideally, an individual’s selection of a religion would be based on agreement with the tenets of a chosen religious sect. But in much the same way as leaders decide what their own religion means, peoples' decisions of where to go to church are based less on religious doctrine, than on the social norms of the church they attend—that is, on their own degree of conformance with the political and social views of its leaders and members.
Religions almost always try to tell their followers what to believe, basing that direction on individual leaders' interpretations of sacred scripture (i.e., varying opinions of what they’d prefer the text to mean), with differing sects of most major religions documenting that direction as their own unique doctrine. This idea applies to leaders and religions as different as the Pope's Catholicism and the Dalai Lama's Buddhism.
But a smokescreen of scriptural interpretation often serves simply to obscure the real fight. As one of the most impactful examples, most White American Evangelicals have devolved over the last decade, to MAGA ultra-right conservatives who are uncomfortable with and afraid of the evolution of society. They like the warm comfort of staying inside a group of likeminded people, and of leaders who reinforce their beliefs and prejudices. They want to return to the social views of an imagined American society of the 1950s (with some, that's closer to the 1850s, so they are prefectly comfortable with slaves).
I'm about as hardcore atheist as one gets and I'm very worried about the effect of cases like Trinity Lutheran. However, from the POV of the students here I'm just not that bothered.
The fear of pressure to conform depends greatly on social expectations about religion and religiousity. Truth is, even red America is a much less religious country than it was even 20 much less 50 years ago. I don't mean specifically that more people identify as non-religous but just that it's taken less seriously.
Even if every last person in your town belongs to the same Christian church you still all go home at night and watch people openly talk about being atheists or hindus or whatever on TV. So social pressure is harder.
Same.
The reason it is wrong has nothing to do with accidentally seeing something. The reason it is wrong is not because some jackass gets offended at someone else's religion.
You should see other peoples' religions, and should feel offended, if you so desire, or are of weak mind, as an effort in the betterment of yourself and your children, who must go into the real world at some point.
It's wrong because it establishes religion. Which wouldn't be as big of a problem if government weren't this thing bigger than anything, ever, at any time, insinuating itself into daily life, (correctly) bringing the no-establishment rule with it.
But then you get major events in life, which often are tagged with religious ceremonies, and suddenly no?
Government: "We control everything, and, since we can't do religion, we purify all human activity of it by insinuating ourselves into everything."
You all pick what's important based on your goals. Yes, he gets a beard, no, they don't get a benediction, yes, they get to wear a face covering on a driver's license, no, they can't wear a cross in a school. And don't say yes they can -- this was forced through the courts. If you had had your way, they couldn't.
Yes, you, my fellow atheists. I lived through that, with statements of outrage your child might see a cross on another child at school.
This is already a small essay, so I'll skip that you brought it on yourself, yet again, as your opposition learns, slowly, to play your game. You had the sheen of noble effort, but it is just another situational ethics instance, to be abandoned as worthless when someone uses it for a different reason.
No logic or adult analysis in what you say.
Why is there pressure to conform that only works one way for you. In any society people like you will represent the sissy majority. ANd math shows it. Though you can take ten issues and see what is most popular in any one issue it would be not highly normal but radically abnormal if some one person shared all those preferences.
The person who always has the most popular religious view, political view, favorite book movie and meal would be considered an utter freak.
Cool story.
Now, explain why congress is disproportionately Christian, and "atheist" routinely ranks highly on "traits that would make me not vote for someone" polls?
Sorry dude, but this country is more religious then you think, and atheists are more distrusted then you think.
But an easier and more effective route to a challenge would simply be to get a school who objected to that particular wording of the commandments to sue because they don't get similar treatment for their version.
It looks like these Texas bills are anti-Christian -- a direct rebuke to the teachings of Jesus:
If the bills are enacted, should a Christian plaintiff bring a Free Exercise challenge?
In Matthew 6:5-6 Jesus forgot to mention football coaches praying on the fifty-yard line after games. Is it too late to propose an amendment?
Beware the Pharisees, who like to stand on corners and pray, where the people can see them.
As I have noted, Jesus spends more time criticising hypocrisy than he does either homosexuality or abortion. But that's NT Jesus, not White American Jesus.
You missed Jesus' point entirely. It is WHY he prays that way that matters. After we only know about Jesus' praying because it was public !!!!
Competent adults neither advance not accept superstition-based arguments in reasoned debate, particularly with respect to public affairs.
(People are entitled to believe as they wish, including beliefs rooted in fiction, nonsense, and superstition. But they are not entitled to have nonsense treated with respect in reasoned debate among adults.)
I wonder what will happen when Muslims or Jews want to have their own religious activities during the same time as the Christians? I can’t wait for SCOTUS to find a way to rule that it is ok to only allow Christians to have Bible study at school.
Jews and Muslims?! How about the Satanic Temple and Wiccans? If they're so hung up on an old-school Protestant version of the 10 commandments, imagine their response to an after-school Satan club.
Josh seems particularly pleased that in SB 1515, the Texas state senate seems not just to have created their own unique version of the Ten Commandants, but one that would have Hugo Black spinning in his grave...
Josh didn't notice, but I'm pretty sure that at least one of those SB 1515 commandments, as written, is not in the Bible. A hint is the combination of...
1) Use of thee/thou/thy—the style of the traditional 1611 King James Version (KJV) of the Christian Bible—and...
2) Wording of the shall not covet commandant from the KJV's (Exodus 20:17) "nor his ox, nor his ass," is revised to a different, true Texan wording: "nor his cattle."*
Fifty-one versions of Bible in English translation are listed on the biblegateway web site:
— None use cattle alone.
—Two use cattle/donkeys: 2006 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) and 1999 paraphrased Good News Translation (GNT).
— Fourteen use ox/ass (KJV and most but not all others using thee/thou/thy).
— Thirty-five use ox/donkey, (most but not all, modern versions not using thee/thou/thy).
The Texas Legislature, unable to utter the word, Ass, in SB 1515 replaced Ass (and Ox) with Cattle. Of 51 English versions of the Bible, the Senate's Cattle exists only in two primarily created to be easier to read (simpler words and language) or understand (paraphrasing complex ideas in a simpler form), and never without accompanying donkeys.
So, in creating a new version of the Ten Commandants, is the Texas Senate attempting to establish a new sect, a new religion for the State of Texas? With Amendment 14 incorporation, aren't they running into a 1st Amendment shall not promote the establishment of religion problem (even for those deciding to believe the Establishment Clause prohibits only official state religion).
_____
*NOTE: Many Christian fundamentalist or Evangelical sects consider either the the 1611 KJV or its update, the 1881 English Revised Version, as the divinely inspired, forever inerrant, only true living word of God. Though there's been a lot of churn in the last couple decades, the once majority and now at least substantial percentage of the Southern Baptist Convention (the most common religious affiliation in the Texas legislature) who retain biblical inerrancy as a fundamental principle, would seem to have an issue replacing KJV's Ox and Ass with Cattle, Big Hats withstanding.
The origin of this particular wording is an interesting puzzle, but it wasn't created for this bill. The language is to my eye word-for-word identical to the language on the Texas State Capitol monument, donated by the Fraternal Order of Eagles in 1961.
As a bonus, this happens to be the monument that the Supreme Court held not to be an Establishment Clause violation in Van Orden v. Perry, 545 U.S. 677 (2005) -- under what may be a broader set of contextual facts than would apply here, but also under a less conservative court (O'Connor dissented; Breyer was the 5th vote and penned a concurrence about the 10Cs also having a secular moral message of proper standards of conduct). So while it's easy to imagine forum-shopping a district court judge to rule against SB 1515, it's harder to imagine it getting much traction in the 5th Circuit or Supreme Court.
Thanks, I love learning new things about familiar subjects!
So, both the 2023 Texas senate and the Austen's 1961 Fraternal Order of Eagles were unable to utter Ass, but can't quite reject the thee/thou/thy's of their biblical inerrancy followers.
And yes, I'm familiar with common logic Breyer used, that lays out government Ceremonial Deism as secular, and not religious.
If I recall correctly, the 2005 Van Orden v. Perry still relied 1971's SCOTUS Lemon v. Kurtzman that clarified their (1947?) Everson v. Board of Education, by providing three primary rules under which a religiously-themed government action may be found to be consistent with the Establishment Clause:
1) it must have a secular legislative purpose
2) its principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion
3) it must not foster an excessive entanglement with religion.
With the Lemon Test's recent death (RIP) as celebrated by the current court, that argument is mostly overcome by events (difficulty of giving entanglement a single, agreed-on definition is what killed it). I appreciate your additional history.
"Good luck finding any plaintiffs who actually suffers an Article III injury."
The mifepristone case is proof that lack of standing isn't a problem in Texas federal district courts or the 5th Circuit.
Realistically, I'd think anything that suggests that teachers and other school staff have less time for their actual jobs as a result of this law would be enough to show an injury for the non-participating students. And that must not be a very high hurdle to climb. Eg. if this is a thing teachers do in the last 10 minutes before class begins, shouldn't they be spending that time preparing their class?
I would prefer that schools not waste their resources on religious nonsense. but I'm not stupid enough to imagine that my policy preferences are enshrined in the Constitution.
As opposed to all the other nonsense? My dad used to joke that the segregated schools of his youth were where they taught the Spear-chuckers to umm, "chuck" Spears, but now they can't even do that.
(How many Spears would a Spear-Chucker chuck, if a Spear-Chucker could chuck a Spear??)
Fortunately Senescent J's anti-Bussing views won out, so was able to send my Daughters to top-rate Pubic Screwels (OK, in an 80% Asian neighborhood, yes the Football/Basketball teams sucked (Baseball team was surprisingly good, very hard working, great fundamentals)
Seriously, only difference between the Atlanta Pubic Highschools and State Prisons is the State Prisoners are slightly better behaved.
Frank
It might interest people to see what the European Court for Human Rights, a court not generally known for bending over backwards to protect Christians, did to uphold a law requiring a crucifix in every classroom in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautsi_v._Italy
Unsurprisingly, given that it is the Texas of Germany, Bavaria als has a law requiring crucifixes in schools and (other) public buildings: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43892329
For the real nerds, here is a law review article talking about the German constitutional court case in 1995 (which banned crucifixes in classrooms) and Everson: https://elibrary.law.psu.edu/psilr/vol15/iss2/5/
And for people who speak German, here is that 1995 German Constitutional Court judgment: https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidungen/DE/1995/05/rs19950516_1bvr108791.html
https://www.tampabay.com/news/breaking-news/2023/04/22/tampa-rape-door-dash-driver-man-arrested/
If you are a liberal on race, you're directly responsible for these crimes.
So to be clear...
According to modern republicans, requiring every classroom to have a specific version of religious dogma in ever classroom is A-OK.
But permitting teachers to put up a sticker that says "All are welcome" over a rainbow field is unallowable indoctrination.
Got it.
Regarding the prayer thing, the only bit that bothers me about that is the teacher-led part. If students want to get together before or after class to pray? Or in the 5 minutes between classes to pray? Or hell, step out of class to pray? Then sure, whatever, knock yourselves out. I remember prayer circles in the courtyard before class in high school and that was no problem.
But the only reason to put the teachers into any role besides "opening the door to the classroom for the students" is if you want kids to conflate state-authority with religious-authority.
Religion Clause cases can be fact and context specific, and discussion requires a careful and somewhat neutral exposition of the underlying situation. I think it would be best for me to wait for a fuller exposition of what this bill actually says before commenting.
I'm not sure how much nuance there is to expound on. Here's the current text:
It doesn't say you can't put a big "Your Fascist Government at Work" sign above it.
"I think it would be best for me to wait for a fuller exposition of what this bill actually says before commenting."
I agree with you...it would have been.
SB 1396 allows school districts to require the creation of a space for prayer or reading of religious texts to occur. Which prayers?
Suppose the vast majority of students and employees are Baptist and like to participate in Baptist-oriented prayer. Six Hindu students and one Hindu teacher want their own room for Hindu prayer during the same time. Does the school have to provide that space? SB 1396 does not appear to require it. Three non-religious students observe that all the teachers and most of the students are participating in the "optional" school prayer time. ALL of the Baptists observe that the three non-religious and six+1 Hindus are NOT at Baptist prayer hour.
I guess the State could just offer student lapel pins with their religious affiliation on them. Would that be any less coercive (in the real world, non-Thomas-ian sense)?
Or perhaps arm bands? Sleeve patches? Tattoos?
"This bulletproof bill is like S.B. 8 for prayer in school. Good luck finding any plaintiffs who actually suffers an Article III injury."
For that to be true, wouldn't you need to add Flast v. Cohen to the list of cases the Supreme Court would have to overrule? Why wouldn't a taxpayer have standing to address their school district's policies?
Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980) is a zombie decision. It was based solely on the Purpose Prong of the Lemon Test. That test having been repudiated in Kennedy, there is no longer an official reason for the decision banning displays of the Ten Commandments in public schools. It's possible that the current Supreme Court could reach the same result based on the standard outlined in Kennedy, but how likely is that to happen?
Likewise, any other decisions based on the Lemon Test (especially Lemon v. Kurtzman) are zombie decisions likely to face the same fate as Stone v. Graham.
Well yes, that's basically Blackman's point. Now that the GOP has well and truly taken over the Supreme Court, all prior establishment clause case law is "zombie", to use your terminology.
Temporarily, not truly.
In the medium and long term, I expect the longstanding trajectory of American progress to sift the Court's jurisprudence in line with decade upon decade of liberal-libertarian progress.
So basically, the GOP is worried that anti-abortion laws might hurt their chances of holding onto government control in "purple" (or even majority blue) counties and states. So they're trying to find something else to fight over that isn't quite so damaging to their reputation. The alternative they've chosen is establishing religion in public schools.
Minor points re translation.
“I am the Lord thy God” is a literally correct translation but misses an important nuance. There are two Hebrew words for “I” – ani and anokhi. The latter is a more intensive form and is used here. Allowing for how notoriously elliptical Hebrew is, a better translation could be “Know that it is I who am the Lord your God” – which makes it clearer as a commandment.
The phrase “other gods” in Hebrew is elohim akherim. But it can equally be translated as “the gods of others”. FWIW nowhere in the Torah does it say that there are no other gods, only that they must not be worshipped.
Right, establishment clause, not equal protection.
I'm glad you can see that no one has a right to disseminate their doctrine officially in the public schools so it can't there can't be equal protection for rights that don't exist.
Yep, as I said: “don’t try to pull out your Koran, Torahs, sutras, vedas, koans, and I-ching to try to devine how others would find it blasphemous, because you are probably going to be laughably wrong.”
Applies to me too.
In fact its a clear rule that applies to the courts too from traffic court to the Supreme Court.
Pretty good “gotcha” there.
I can't think of a worse argument to present to the courts: "you can't post that because some religions will find it blasphemous." The answer universally will be "that's between them and their god, not us. Are there any other arguments you can possibly think of?"
As usual, you are dumb as a box of rocks. Saying that 9-11 was God's punishment executed through Muslin fanatics doesn't in the slight imply that the ragheads were not at fault and ought to be extirpated.
And that is pellucidly clear anyway. Didn't Biden authorize Pride Flags in Afghanistan and unleash many murders of gays !!!
You don't get it because you want a very definite singular religion though you won't call it that. Lincoln knew your type vis a vis 'slavery':
" This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us."
You already told us that Drachman's dad had educated you in buttsex.
Do you think we've forgotten?
I'm still waiting for your answer as to whether you were still pre-op at the time.
No, you don't understand the argument. The issue is not that other religions will find it blasphemous. The issue is that that particular sect is being given access in a way that other sects are not, which is equal protection,
Suppose a school posted a sign that said "Two plus two equals four and this message is sponsored by the First Baptist Church." Suppose the school allowed no other sects to put up similar signs. Nobody is going to find the substantive message offensive, but the fact that one sect gets free advertising and no others do is an equal protection problem. Also an establishment problem but the two are not mutually exclusive.
God made a bunch of murderous terrorists to punish America by mudering thousands of innocent people. What for, exactly, we're not sure, vague stuff. Good work, God.
I do like the idea of Muslin fanatics. Like on Project Runway!
Sure I can understand the argument, if we were to start over from scratch and there was no establishment clause, and no case law. But in this legal universe a court would never have to get to the 14th amendment, because any law that discriminates against religions has already violated the establishment clause.
Even the one religious liberty case I've found that used equal.protection should have just used the establishment clause:
"For instance, in Native Am. Council of Tribes v. Solem, the Eight Circuit held that restrictions on Native American inmates‘ religious practices violated the Equal Protection Clause because similar restrictions did not exist for other religious groups."
"Religion and the Equal Protection Clause"
Steven Calabresi, Abe Salander
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/facultyworkingpapers/213/
So you got one outlier that uses equal protection but libraries full of decisions that strike similar laws based on the establishment clause.
The only reason to use equal protection would be to open the doors to multiple religions displaying their texts, rather than say no one can.
You're being sarcatic but thats probably what happened.
You seem to be arguing that a law can only violate one provision of the Constitution at a time, and that's just not true. A law that said that Methodists may carry handguns but Catholics may not would violate the First, Second and Fourteenth Amendments all at the same time; it would be a tactical decision by plaintiff's counsel as to which theories to advance.
You are right that most such claims have been brought under the Establishment Clause but that doesn't mean they could not also be brought under the Equal Protection Clause (which, on a clean slate, I actually think would be the stronger argument). And the benefit to bringing it under equal protection is that it underscores that not only is the government establishing a religion; it's also making other religions into second class citizens.
Once you wave away the factual notion that the 10 Commandments are, in fact, Christian, you can avoid having to answer questions regarding establishment. As noted in the OP, this particular set of commandments comes from a specific version of the Bible.
Regardless, atheists and similar "nones" make up roughly 1/3 of the population these days. Any religious text nailed to the classroom wall that demands belief in a particular, singular god is an establishment problem if, for no other reason than, it speaks directly against one of the major belief systems in this country.