The Volokh Conspiracy
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Law School Free Speech, Wokeness, and "The Etiquette of Equality"
A different take.
As a general rule, essays on "wokeness" and law school free speech debates shed more heat than light. But I found this essay from Harvard Law professor Ben Eidelson, "The Etiquette of Equality," to be a particularly interesting read. Eidelson offers a middle ground that probably won't make advocates on either side happy, but I think he makes some illuminating points along the way.
The paper begins with this hypothetical:
Imagine a classroom discussion of Lawrence v. Texas, the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark decision holding sodomy laws unconstitutional. One student argues that the Court's ruling was correct because a state may not base its criminal laws on bare moral disapproval. Another student picks up on Justice Scalia's dissenting opinion and responds that, if that principle were sound, polygamy and bestiality would also be immune from punishment.A third student chimes in to observe that those comparisons are offensive, even harmful, and urges or intimates that the second should apologize. What should happen next?
One natural thought is that it depends on whether the offense that the third student took (or supposed others would take) is justified. That is evidently what Justice Scalia himself thought: faced with an openly gay student's similar request for an apology, Scalia rebuked the questioner for failing to grasp the reductio argument that he had actually made. Insofar as Scalia had "compared" same-sex intercourse and bestiality, after all, he claimed only that bans on these practices are alike by the lights of the principle that the Court invoked to invalidate sodomy laws. As Scalia correctly observed, that claim really has nothing to do with whether same-sex intercourse is morally tantamount to bestiality at all.
Yet I suspect many will share my instinct that this point of logic is not all that matters, from a moral point of view, in the kind of encounter that I have described. For if many people confronted with Scalia's analogical argument will foreseeably take its expression as implying a moral equivalence between same-sex intercourse and bestiality—or, more simply, as an anti-gay insult—that fact alone seems to bear on whether, or at least how, one should voice the argument. And insofar as Scalia or the second student in our imagined dialogue predictably caused gay audience members to think they were being insulted (even, in a sense, mistakenly), and did so without good reason, taking offense at that behavior—under that revised description—could well be warranted after all. In a sense, the listener's interpretation, which starts off foreseeable but mistaken, seems to bounce off of the speaker and return to the listener vindicated in the end.
This line of thought might suggest that the second student did act wrongly and should indeed apologize. But that is not a comfortable result either. Treating the student's mere invocation of the analogical argument as an insult will tend to ratify the misunderstanding of what they actually said, to discourage the expression of other ideas that could also be misunderstood, and to raise the overall "symbolic temperature" within the community. Indeed, a general practice of validating reactions such as the third student's here could well result in gay students facing more, rather than fewer, comments that they rightly take as offensive—at least in a belief- or evidence-relative sense of rightness—and thus leave them only worse off. So, again, what should the characters in this story do? I am tempted to say that, if you think the answer is obvious, one of us is missing something important.
Read the whole thing here.
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Unrestricted free speech, paradoxically, results in less speech, not more.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
Restricting free speech results in the absence of the speech you've blocked.
Less is not more.
Considering that we went from "gays marrying so to be left alone" to cutting off children's happy parts and drag queens gyrating and showing their happy parts to children in 6 or so years Scalia was 100% correct to make the analogy.
Also considering that every other month a so we get little trial balloons testing the waters of adults having sex with children, screw anyone who is offended -- you have a reason to be ashamed.
If we didn’t have legal same sex marriage would you volunteer to check to see if every couple getting married had exactly one pee pee and one wee wee??
Am I being forced to recognize or support such?
i have no objection to checking that their birth certificates show different sexes before "assigning" the name "marriage" to the resultant contract.
Where did you get the idea that little boys don't wee-wee?
It went from "Don't arrest us for sodomy" to "Throw us a parade for grooming your children for genital mutilation and unnatural intercourse. People like the Reverend fantasize about ejaculating into unnatural places.
Hey remember how the Pride Pox went from spreading among gay males exclusively to little kids and dogs?
Weird for an STD.
I assume you're talking about red state consent laws where you can marry and fuck your 12 year old cousin. I agree, that's something to be offended by and ashamed of, but it's about as far as you could get from Lawrence.
I'd assumed it was about, for instance, the effort to rebrand pedophiles as "MAPs". (Minor Attracted People)
Not much of an effort.
Pedophilia is not getting mainstreamed, Brett, don't go QANon on us.
"It's just my NOSE, man -- what are you, heartless? It's COLD out here!"
You should skip about half a dozen comments today and spend the found time penning a SarcFables version of the tale with up-to-date lingo like "QAnon," "conspiracy theorist," and maybe even "Dunning-Kruger." It can end with the camel condescendingly explaining to the man that it's just his overactive persecution-complex imagination making him think he's outside the tent, and even if he is he left of his own free will, and even if he didn't he's on the wrong side of history so just STFU. Can't wait!
Wasn’t that another dumb 4chan-type scam? Like pizzagate?
Men are men.
Women are women.
True facts.
If true facts offend you, you need to deal with it, not me.
Yep, women are women, including trans women.
Yep, pigs are cows, because you say so.
This guy badly needed a single editor, not the multitude he thanked. Very verbose.
Well, it does lend itself to skimming, doesn't it. But I like the precision of language and appreciate the obvious effort to avoid misunderstandings through completeness of expression.
But if TL;DR, the last paragraph of the first section acts as a sort of Abstract
I've actually seen a forum moderator delete a post with that second student's argument, because he took personal offense. That action caused me to boycott the forum. You can't have a reasonable debate if one side can't make arguments.
And by the way, such comparisons are *often* to something which is more serious. In a gun control debate, someone might say "Under your argument, it would be legal for everyone to have nukes." It would be ridiculous for me to take offense to that and/or claim that you said my rifle *is* a nuke. It's poking a hole in an argument, not claiming equivalency.
What forum?
Kongregate. The site is still up, but the forums and chat and pretty much everything that made people go there were shut down.
Exactly right. Which is precisely what these people have in mind -- it's much easier to "win" the debate that way!
So why can Pete Booty-Judge marry "Chasten" but can't marry his (Boot-Edge-Edge) own brothers/sisters (Plural intended)???
and don't tell me about Birth Defects, bla bla bla, C'mon (Man!) Hunter fucked his dead Brother's wife, while legal, is certainly creepier, (OK, Sleepy compliments 9 year olds on their looks, so it's in the genes)
Frank
"So why can Pete Booty-Judge marry 'Chasten' but can’t marry his (Boot-Edge-Edge) own brothers/sisters (Plural intended)???"
Perhaps because no proponent of sibling marriage has sued to challenge the prohibition thereof? What incentive to sue would such a person have?
fucked his dead Brother’s wife,
Google "levirate marriage" 🙂
Judge Duncan's case is arguably a reverse scenario. One of the reasons the protesters were upset at him, at least by his account, was because he had refused to recognize the pronouns by which a sex criminal self-identified. It was his interlocutors who were insisting that the sex criminal be lumped together with all other transgender people, while he refused to do so.
Not a hill I’d die on, certainly not the issue I’d challenge a rotten federal judge on, but it’s no different from accurately referring to criminals by their name. Other people with the same name aren’t being ‘lumped in’ with them or implicated in anything they did.
Sorry but the logic is all that matters and the third student is simply wrong.
I might grant some latitude to a child who mistakes emotion for argument but even that latitude is used up by high-school. That failure to understand basic reasoning is inexcusable in an adult.
Rossami, if what you intend is to narrow rhetorical legitimacy to, logos, bypassing, ethos, and, pathos, then there is a long and deep tradition critiquing your approach. Maybe at least take a check to see if you understand it.
“Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris— not the end.”
-Spock
You -- and Orin and Scalia -- are somehow dumb as stumps. The best case scenario is that you're being willfully ignorant as cover for bigotry. Orin, I think you do owe your readers an apology.
Really? You don't see any morally relevant distinctions between sodomy and bestiality? That's just asinine.
Things you can have sex with:
1. Yourself
2. Inanimate objects
3. Consenting adults of the same sex
4. Consenting adults of the opposite sex
Things you can't have sex with:
1. Children
2. Non-consenting adults
3. Mentally incapacitated adults
Now, are you, Orin, confused about which of those two buckets "animals" falls into and why? If so, that's very sad. If not, then you're a bigot for suggesting that unlike "consenting adults of the opposite sex," the sexual decisions of "consenting adults of the same sex" are like those of children, animals, and the mentally incapacitated.
Orin is not endorsing that sex between consenting adults of the same sex is any bucket, nor is he saying there is no moral distinction between sodomy and bestiality. He is merely pointing out that it is not categorical bigotry to argue that the logic in Lawrence would not permit any morals-based legislation.
I think that argument can be countered by saying the bans on polygamy and bestiality are not justified by (just) an amorphous appeal to morality, but rather by the harms they cause to unwilling victims. That is, the Scalia's interpretation of Lawrence is wrong, which may or may not be because of bigotry.
I feel like that's exactly what I juat said, and I gave stupidity as the alternative to bigotry.
So which is it Orin, stupidity or bigotry?
I would not characterize Scalia's misinterpretation as being stupid. Orin has nothing to apologize for.
Really? How would you characterize it? The argument seems like it's either bigoted, or too stupid to realize it.
The determination to characterize it that way is firmly rooted in a desire that the argument not have to be engaged with.
Indeed, huge swaths of our law are grounded in appeals to morality, so that if we rejected appeals to morality as sufficient grounding for binding laws, those huge swaths of our law should fall.
Maybe they should so fall, but when people appeal to a principle to achieve a limited aim, they SHOULD have the full implications of that principle pointed out to them, and have to explain why it should only be applied to the limited extent they desire.
Brett pretty much echoes Scalia's argument. How to react? Not by calling him a bigot or stupid, but by engaging him in the weakness of his argument.
I don't think that is right. For example, as I stated earlier, proscriptions against polygamy and bestiality are justified by the harm they cause to unwilling victims. What exactly do you think the "huge swaths" of law would fall if an appeal to morality is not sufficient to justify the law?
No, they're not. Who is the "unwilling victim" in a consensual polygamous marriage?
Polygamy as most commonly practiced, one-man many-women, victimizes both women as a class and the boys in the community who are forcibly kicked out.
No, proscriptions against polygamy and bestiality are NOT historically justified by the harm they cause to unwilling victims. You are free to argue that that ought to be the only justification, but it's complete nonsense to say that that is anything but a fallback position taken by those who don't want to recognize the actual wellspring of the prohibitions.
If we can kill animals to satisfy other appetites it's hard to see why goat-fucking ought to be prohibited on the ground that it does harm to the goats. When did THAT argument appear?
We could ban the eating of animals on the basis of harm just as easily as we ban bestiality. But, the majority has chosen not to and they get to draw different lines in different cases.
What *COULD* be done doesn’t salvage your falsehood that “as I stated earlier, proscriptions against… and bestiality *ARE* justified by the harm they cause to unwilling victims.” Again, no they are not, except by weirdos. Bestiality has been proscribed throughout history because it is disgusting to the overwhelming majority of humans.
The history is not relevant to the debate of whether a proscription against bestiality survives constitutional scrutiny under Lawrence. Assuming for the sake of argument you are correct and the historical reason was moral disgust, the law nonetheless survives because of the alternate reason of harm.
Do you actually think that yelling "bigot bigot bigot" is effective with anyone who doesn't agree with you already?
Yes. I gave the reasoned argument as well. But like you were saying yesterday, these guys aren't susceptible to reason and evidence alone, not when there's someone like Scalia on the other side, telling them what they want to hear emotionally. They'll go for emotion every time, and so I think throwing some emotion in along with the argument is helpful. I don't think Brett's going to have some kind of epiphany in this thread, but I have noticed there can be cumulative effects over time.
Keep in mind, as I was saying the other day, they know on some level that these beliefs are stupid and bigoted. It's embedded in the message that they hear from their leaders, which is based on allowing emotion to cloud reason. It's essentially the Emperor's message: "Let the hate flow through you. Good, I can feel your anger." That's another way it's helpful to point it out -- we see what's going on here. They're not gonna be successful in their attempt to mask their stupidity and bigotry with bad, results-oriented talking points.
Sometimes I use positive emotion instead of negative emotion. It's hard to use both in the same post, but sometimes it can be done in the same thread.
The idea that YOU, of all people, are the voice of reason is SO deluded.
Scalia didn't say what you determinedly assert that he said, of course. The alternatives are that you are lying or that you are as intelligent as a box of rocks. Pick one. Or two.
Wait, do you think I'm misrepresenting Eidelson or do you think Eidelson is misrepresenting Scalia?
The person you're quoting is Ben Eidelson, not Orin.
Orin endorsed it without reservation.
He implicitly endorsed the inquiry. He neither endorsed nor rejected any of Eidelson's conclusions.
He quoted it extensively and called it "particularly interesting" and "illuminating." That, my dear, is an endorsement.
It really doesn't work to say, I found this statement by BravoCharlieDelta to be particularly interesting and illuminating:
and then later try claim you weren't endorsing the statement for its content but merely for the "inquiry" it represents. That would be an exceedingly lame dodge.
No, "a particularly interesting read" and "I think he makes some illuminating points along the way" is not an endorsement of any and all conclusions. But, yeah, it probably indicates that he is not of your brainless tribe, unable and unwilling to make any distinctions beyond "Us"/"Them".
A person who responds to a comparison of homosexuality and bestiality with…moral disapproval…is stating very clearly that there is no non-animosity-based basis for distinguishing the two. By responding with an irrational outburst of exactly the sort Lawrence v. Texas said can’t be the basis for any legitimate government interest, not only is the third student admitting they are equivalent, he is admitting there is no rational basis to claim otherwise.
I approve of neither sodomy nor bestiality but I’m willing to accept both as the price I pay to live in a society where I’m also left alone, except I’m not. So why am I supposed to tolerate you again?
I'll go further -- if society is going to rape my civil rights because *I* am different, exactly why shouldn't I support your civil rights also being raped? Let's round up all the gays and -- whatever -- them.
The only reason not to is that the rights of other are also respected and the others have a shared interest in shared rights -- but as that ain't true anymore, why *shouldn't* we round up all the gays?
Other than calling me names, I would like to see an articulated reason why I should oppose something like this.
Which of your civil rights have been raped due to you being different?
I'm really excited to hear what that's about.
Daniel Perry just got his right to self defense raped by a Soros prosecutor and a carefully selected jury of Austin TX wokesters. I don't know how bad the judge was, but I suspect the worst.
They're working of doing it to Trump with the equally egregious Manhattan equivalents, this time with a judge who barely merits the description "so-called".
Whoa, is Dr. Ed Daniel Perry? That explains a lot!
If you no longer trust jury trials, you might as well start seditioning. I guess you hate America.
“why *shouldn’t* we round up all the gays?”
Whoa, wait, what??? When did this become a contemplated option?
"All sheep and no shepherd, everyone is the same, everyone wants to be the same -- anyone who is different goes voluntarily to the Madhouse." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Gays also are different, lets round them up as well...
Which difference intrinsic to you is the cause of you being rounded up?
Given that he makes his living as a doctor the attempt to remove Jonathan Peterson's ability to practice psychiatry because of different, "bad", thoughts is probably relevant.
Context matters, but unfortunately people are too lazy or too emotionally invested to figure that out.
That being said, while the hypothetical third student's comments are fine, this forum has descended into outright bigotry as evidenced by the comments of DWB, hoppy025, BravoCharlieDelta, Longtobefree and Frank Drackman.
When did your wife find out you were grooming the neighborhood children?
Correction, I meant the second student's comments were fine (not necessarily driven by bigotry).
Isn't bigotry Constitutionally protected -- Nazis in Stokie and such?
Doesn't preclude it being called out and criticised does it? Or do you not find that sort of thing toxic and unpleasant at best?
The third student is an idiot and, to avoid more damage to the rest of us than was made inevitable by the failure to abort him, should never have been admitted to law school.
edit: But I see you changed the direction of your refusal-to-disapprove.
The essay reads like a parody of academic writing, written by a robot that doesn’t understand the purpose of parody. No one should heed any advice on any sort of communication from this guy.
The fact that you failed to understand what he was communicating, so therefore you assume he wasn’t trying to say anything, says nothing. Nor does the fact that he was actually saying something, and failed to communicate it to you.
I found this to be a…hard read. But that doesn’t mean the author isn’t saying anything; it means you’re incapable of understanding what they* were writing. Equally, it means they were incapable of conveying their meaning to you, which is a flaw in their writing. But if you actually dig down, there’s a gold mine of meaning there.
And I’m saying this as someone whose only legitimately failed college course was when he tried to analyze post-modernist thinking…and found it devoid of anything to analyze. “Hard to read” ≠ “has nothing to say”; it just means the author’s not a great writer.
* DON’T CARE, before you pounce; I use impersonal “they” unless there’s a reason not to, and that in itself is relevant for this essay…and I’ll still use impersonal “they” unless there’s a reason not to.
There's generally a good reason not to use "they" when a single person is being referred to -- it avoids completely unnecessary confusion about who the fuck you are talking about -- and the fact that you don't grasp this just means that you're dumb as a box of rocks.
The fact that the author of the essay thinks "gay" rather than "homosexual" is now required for politesse indicates perfectly clearly to me that I have no reason to be interested in anything he might want to say. As indeed I was not, when I had my PC read some of it to me.
I've lost count of how many times Dr. Ed has been called out and corrected just today. Honestly, it must be some sort of record. He just comes back again and again to be embarrassed over and over again.
Astounding.
Even Larry Fine had some dignity.
And you fail to understand the point I was trying to make. Whatever....
You are deluded. Being "called out" by self-discrediting morons ought cause no embarrassment at all, still less should it cause a loss of "dignity". The emotion it arouses ought to be contempt, and I do feel that for the likes of you.
Orin’s post deserved better comments. It’s why we can’t have nice things.
Bringing the blog to Reason was such poison to the comment threads.
Reason is part of it, but the bigger problem is that the conspirators have decided to throw in with right-wing culture war clickbait. Even Orin.
I think it’s the malign combination of Reason, plus over-the-top, no-values, commitment to expressive freedom in a forum where that extreme is not legally required, and serves degraded purposes far more often than otherwise. Might be more a practical kind of laziness than any other vice. It would require a lot more work to manage a wiser blog. But back in the day, this was a much wiser blog. I miss it.
Stephen, has it ever occurred to you that America has changed -- and this blog merely reflects that... Yeats put it best, the middle shall cease to hold, and it has -- as folk have gone to one side or the other.
Once more: that's not how Yeats put it.
This is like writing, "Shakespeare put it best: 'Roses would smell pretty much the same even if you called them something else.'"
This post may be many things, but I don't think you can call it clickbait.
That's where Reason comes in. It's clickbait among that crowd. You can tell by comment volume. This post and his one on Mifepristone for example each got 2 or 3 times as many comments as his recent, older-school "An Important Wiretap Act Case Pending in the New Jersey Supreme Court" post.
Yeah, RW culture war being any contrary viewpoint now that yours is is gaining the backing of culture and government. Whatever.
I don't think it is fair to characterize Eidelson's commentary as clickbait, at least not per se. For sure, it unsurprisingly resulted in a wave of bigoted comments. But, so too would a commentary commending Biden's proposed Title IX interpretation that would 1) make categorical exclusion of trans female athletes in women's-only sports a violation of Title IX, but 2) permit exclusions of trans female athletes in some cases.
That is, just because the deplorables will react isn't sufficient to label a legitimate a legitimate point of view as clickbait.
I don't think labelling something as clickbait means it's illegitimate. It means that it doesn't add much value relative to the attention it'll get.
So I agree, Eidelson’s commentary isn't what's clickbait. Orin's decision to post it here with no commentary of his own is.
The fact this post didn't add much value relative to the attention trolls gave it is a function of all the trolls in this forum, not the fact that Orin posted it. This could easily have been a useful addition in the prior versions of the Conspiracy.
"Yet I suspect many will share my instinct that this point of logic is not all that matters, from a moral point of view, in the kind of encounter that I have described."
Lost me right there. Vetoing the use of logical arguments by emoting really hard is the death of reason. Tolerate it at all, and it's all downhill from there.
Suppose the student HAD meant that same sex intercourse and bestiality were morally similar? So. Freaking. What? Are we not able to have disagreements about morality, and still have reasoned discussions? Is the assumption here that sweet reason is only possible among people who share essentially all their moral beliefs?
Lost me right there. Vetoing the use of logical arguments by emoting really hard is the death of reason. Tolerate it at all, and it’s all downhill from there.
Bellmore, logic can fly out the window. If you are on an upper floor, you can't. Survival itself literally depends on being careful about following logic too closely. To do that is not, "the death of reason."
If you would like to read an essay which critiques logic logically, you cannot do better than Michael Oakeshott's, Rationalism in Politics.
People can train themselves to reason about things that upset them, Stephen.
They can also train themselves to be incapable of doing that.
Which should we encourage in institutions of higher learning? I say the former.
Bellmore, for logic's sake, read Oakeshott. He was a person much smarter than you and me, demonstrating logically exactly what is wrong with the kinds of errors you make constantly, and that I make less often because I read him.
Pretending you're driven solely by reason and logic is self-delusion in all who claim it. Expecting reason and logic to present perfect solutions or arguments without reference to emotion is 'perfectly spherical horse' territory. Which is to say you're being neither reasonable and logical if you're not taking emotion into account. As Spock kept learning over and over again, it's not logical to act as if emotions aren't a factor, for better or worse (as with reason and logic.) If the comparison was designed to derail the conversation, it succeded; if it wasn't it was just spectacularly dumb.
Nobody is driven exclusively by reason and logic. We’re animals, after all, and while we may have evolved rationality, it’s something we’ve got a very tenuous grip on as yet.
The question is, should we be trying to improve that grip, or loosen it? The former, I think. We’re not Vulcans, but we could stand a bit more Vulcan in us.
No, Brett, the question is how to use that knowledge.
Social engineering is a thing that exists, and it's incredibly powerful, and we should teach about it.
Or perhaps we should accept that we’re creatures of both logic and emotion and the key is getting the balance right in any given situation.
I find it very hard, looking at the state of the world, to conclude that the balance is tilted too far in the direction of logic.
You think logic means peacefulness?
Logic often counsels ruthlessness. I'd argue it's only through our more irrational impulses of mercy and tolerance that we have survived as a species.
I like how hard you're trying to use logic and reason to defend the idea that we have nothing to base our laws on but whatever we find to be viscerally disgusting, with no role for logic and reason.
You're a hoot, Brett!
Turns out, appeals to "disgust" aren't particularly logical, making Student 3's statement more logical than Student 2's. Student 2 is either stupid or a bigot, so it's logical for Student 3 to call out that ignorance / intolerance.
When someone calls you a fag, Brett, do you interpret it as a good-faith statement of reasoned belief and attempt to provide a logical rebuttal? I think that would confirm the accusation in most people's minds.
PARTICULARLY in an educational setting, everyone involved should do their best to avoid knee-jerk emotional reactions and understand the reasoning behind statements they might otherwise want to dismiss (and chastise) as offensive. Students should be (patiently) taught how the rush to cry "offense!" and shut down others' speech is wrong, immature, and counter-productive.
I don’t know about that. They’ve succeeded in making academia a “uni-party” state. They’re now trying to expand that successful strategy to society at large.
"Let me start with a claim that I hope will be uncontroversial: people have an important interest in others' recognition of their status as equal members of the communities that structure their lives. The full satisfaction of this interest, moreover, requires not only that others in fact hold certain attitudes, but that a person be made aware of others' regard as well."
This seems to suggest that every time somebody further subdivides into more intersectional groups (Black queer atheists) we’re required to revise Mission Statements and utilize preferred deference and acknowledgement of their chosen status. Somehow, failure to be minutely and overtly inclusive is deemed exclusionary. Presumably, the burden of self-identification as a member of a marginalized group justifies the burden on others to pause and make a statements of acknowledgment, perhaps listening to an explanation of the group’s charter and manifesto.
That burden shifting seems unjustified and offense taken of those unwilling to accept it seems unwarranted.
The second student should tell the third student: "Go fuck yourself. I can say what I like."
And if the professor leading the discussion makes him apologize, all that will accomplish is that, going forward, the students will self-censor, and all subsequent discussions will be stilted toward "political correctness." Which is precisely what often (usually?) happens these days. Which is why these "snowflake" students go so nuts when faced with a non-self-censoring, non-politically-correct speaker (whether it's Milo Yiannopoulos or Judge Kyle Duncan).
You're saying if you can't be hateful, nasty, bigoted, stupid and loud, you might be excluded from the conversation?
The second student should tell the third student: “Go fuck yourself. I can say what I like.”
No, he can't. And he can't say this, either. At least not without consequences.
Etiquette is for civil people intending to act civilly. The left clearly does not intend to maintain civility and only talks about etiquette to try to clear the field for their notions to go without response.
Good luck with your big plan to be an utter butthead to own the libs.
^ case in point — not an example of good etiquette, no intention of civility.
When is this incivility going to begin? Just so we can prepare ourselves for the onslaught.
If homosexual marriage, why not poly?
But the whole point of reductio ad absurdum is the absurdum. Your offense is supposed to reveal the weakness of your argument.
Josh answered this above. It doesn't actually reductio, so there is no absurdum.
Indeed, legally speaking, polygamy was much more of a slam dunk than SSM; It's been a traditional form of marriage around the world for all of human history, and probably pre-history. Practically every day we get legally multiply-married people showing up at our borders, and have to deal with them. It's absolutely a legitimate form of marriage, as the world has been understood from time immemorial.
Not like SSM which was basically non-existent anywhere in the world until 2-3 decades ago, when a sort of fad suddenly took the world legal community by storm, and they decided to impose it on the nation.
You didn't address my argument as to why the majority cannot ban SSM but can ban polygamy (only the latter can be justified by preventing harm).
Now perhaps there is a separate argument that polygamy can't be banned either because of tradition. But, that's totally irrelevant to Scalia's argument that not allowing a ban on SSM necessarily implies not allowing a ban on polygamy.
The strategic expression of false offense isn't really mentioned at all. Perhaps it's because Eidelson doesn't want to appear to be the sort of person who would acknowledge its obvious existence.
What if I did? so why is it ill-legal??
Gonna be great when Booty-Judge and Chasten's kids testify 10 years from now
Wasn't too long ago that "Nazi Race-ists" against SSM included Barry Hussein O.
People don't generally respond to Godwin's law with "how dare you say I'm a Nazi, take that back". But that's in the context of Internet forums. It might be more personal in-person.
I'm old enough to remember that neither advocates nor opponents of same-sex marriage believed him. And they were both right not to.
He's gay married to a tranny. Everyone knew. Even Joan Rivers, before they murdered her.
Love is Love you hatefilled bigot.
And The Queen has just unknowingly recited the case against gay marriage....
Look at what they're doing to children now.
If memory serves, the person's identification as trans (and change in pronouns) came after his arrest. Duncan's view was that it was strategic and opportunistic, to try for more favorable treatment from the jury and confinement in a women's prison.
In their anus? Like that dog?
lol you didn't think this one through.
And also that he'd obtained his supposed name change from a Kentucky court without disclosing that he wasn't a resident of Kentucky, and so he hadn't actually legally changed his name.
No, that's not what Duncan's view was. Nor was that the posture of the case.
The guy had already been convicted, six years earlier, and was already incarcerated. He filed a motion asking the trial court to 'correct' the judgment that had been entered against him to reflect what he said was his new name. The district court denied his motion. He appealed that to the 5th Circuit. Duncan wrote that there was no legal basis for such a motion and that the district court lacked jurisdiction to hear it. That was a purely mechanical ruling, though it wasn't right.
Along with his appeal, he filed a motion asking the circuit court to address him by female pronouns. Duncan rejected that, and wrote a long explanation for why he wouldn't do that.
Is the judge as rude about any religious conversions of criminals, that might be sincere or might be strategic and opportunistic?
One student argues that the Court’s ruling was correct because a state may not base its criminal laws on bare moral disapproval. Another student picks up on Justice Scalia’s dissenting opinion and responds that, if that principle were sound, polygamy and bestiality would also be immune from punishment.
The second student’s observation is perfectly sound. If the third student takes it as an accusation that his penchant for homo sodomy is akin to bestiality rather than polygamy (which is often disapproved of, but not so often induces strong disgust) that’s not anyone else’s problem.
Intelligence is the capacity to solve problems. Loosing your ability to reason if you hear a word you don't like isn't "emotional intelligence", it's the categorical opposite.
Now, understanding that somebody might be upset to hear bestiality and sodomy compared is an exercise of emotional intelligence, but nothing in the above hypothetical indicates that the 2nd student didn't understand that. He just expected that people would be able to overcome that upset long enough to think.
We used to say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." On an emotional level it was never really true, but it represented a goal that people were expected to work towards: Being able to retain their rationality in the face of hurtful words.
That was a worthy goal, we should not abandon it.
I believe QA isn’t talking about emotional intelligence related to the listener, but to the speaker. Reading a room and adapting to it is a widely useful skill to have. Part of that skill, is, of course, having the perspective and self-control to not throw tantrums about little things. AND understanding why people are reacting as they are.
You’d think maybe you would like such things being taught.
It’s actually pretty logical to conclude that someone who makes that comparison is reducing the humans to the level of animals and their sexual relationaships to a deep social taboo. Acting as if that’s unreasonable rather than accepting it as a genuine response is itself an emotional reaction.
'Being able to retain their rationality in the face of hurtful words.'
It's rational to recognise when someone is talking shit about you, and logical to reject it out of hand.
Ask the Masterpiece Cake Shop baker how he won his first trip to the Supreme Court, opinion authored by the animus standard guy.
These aren't separate concepts. The basis of Lawrence was that the ban could be justified only by animus, which was irrational.
Transphobia and misogyny are deeply enmeshed. Not only is it a wedge to push back lgtbq rights, but also women's rights.
It’s still illegal to have sex with children, except in certain red states.
They were, in the hypothetical, trying to discuss the reasoning behind a Supreme court ruling. Sure, laws against sodomy were based on moral perceptions, and largely rooted in instinctive disgust. (And there may be sound socio-biological grounds for that disgust!) But huge swaths of our law are so rooted; Must they all fall?
You can't discuss that question if you can't discuss sodomy in the context of other things that also involve instinctive disgust and are illegal.
So, do I want it taught that you can't discuss things that upset people? No, I do not. I want it taught that you try to get over being upset, because other people are entitled to say what THEY want, not what YOU want.
Sodomy, shit. I see what you did there, very funny. 😉
Oops, that's an emotional response, Brett.
They should probably be taught that sometimes you will upset people when you discuss things, and there are various ways of responding, depending.
This is the second time you’ve mentioned these huge swaths. There are no huge swaths that are supported solely by an appeal to morality.
As I’ve said, I think this makes you stupid / bigoted. (Bigots often confuse their bigotry for morality after all.) But Josh thinks you ought to be given a chance to defend your statement. Can you?
Aren't there some red states where it's mandatory?
You've now made multiple claims that it's okay to have sex with children in some red states. Where's your source? Here's an article on age of consent laws in the US that seems to directly contradict your contention. Blue and red states seem to be fairly equally represented in each age category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
I think you must be excluding from the domain of morality a lot of stuff that really belongs there.
Why do we criminalize theft? Fraud? Why do we care if somebody is murdered? Is this not primarily because we think it's wrong to do these things? Morality, in other words. Practically the whole of the law, at least as it faces the ordinary citizen, is morality based.
Ok, so, it’s looking more like stupid than bigoted.
Is this not primarily because we think it’s wrong to do these things?
This is like if you said “it’s impossible to know whether an animal is a poodle, because vast swaths of animals are dogs,” then I said “that’s stupid, I’m pretty sure I can tell when an animal is a poodle, but tell me more,” and you said “Why do we care if an animal is a poodle? Is it not primarily because we think it’s a canine? A dog, in other words. Practically the whole of the animal kingdom, at least as it faces the dog fancier, is dogs.”
Now substitute law for animal, morality-based for dogs, wrong for canine, and protective-of-others for poodle.
And sodomy laws are mutts.
I don't know; Do convicted pedophiles typically petition to get their recorded religion changed on old records, or to be referred to by their new religion? I suspect not.
I expect the judge treats religious conversions of criminals as completely irrelevant to any legal process.
Basic normative claims are never rational, only the process of identifying their implications and cross-checking for incompatibilities and suchlike even can be.
Fucking goats is prohibited because it's disgusting, not because it victimizes the goats, and even if it were concern over victimizing goats wouldn't at its base be rational. It could be derived from other principles, but then adopting THEM as something to care about wouldn't be a rational act.
The Boston Medical Center and its enablers.
"A child marriage is a marriage in which at least one party is under 18 years of age—or the age of majority—in the U.S."
Ah, yes, 17 y/o are "children" when they murder each other with guns, but not if they want their dicks or breasts cut off.