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Viewpoint-Based Removal of Books from Public Library Violated First Amendments, Holds District Court
From Little v. Llano County, decided yesterday by Judge Robert Pitman (W.D. Tex.):
In early July 2021, prior to their appointment to the New Library Board, Defendants Rochelle Wells, Rhonda Schneider, Gay Baskin, and Bonnie Wallace were part of a community group pushing for the removal of children's books that they deemed "inappropriate." For example, these Defendants objected to two series of children's picture books, the "Butt and Fart Books," which depict bodily functions in a humorous manner in cartoon format, because they believed these books were obscene and promoted "grooming" behavior. Defendant Milum, the library system's director, shared the complaints with the Commissioners Court {the municipal entity that controls the Llano County Library System}. Although several commissioners and librarians stated that they saw no problem with the books, Defendants Moss and Cunningham contacted Milum to instruct her to remove the books from the shelves.
By August 5, 2021, Milum informed Cunningham she would be deleting both sets of books from the catalog system. In the following months, other books, such as In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak and It's Perfectly Normal, by Robbie H. Harris, were removed because of similar complaints: that they encouraged "child grooming" and depicted cartoon nudity. There was no recourse for Plaintiffs, or anyone else, to appeal these removals to the library system.
In Fall 2021, Wallace, Schneider, and Wells, as part of their community group, contacted Cunningham to complain about certain books that were in the children's sections or otherwise highly visible, labeling them "pornographic filth." On November 10, 2021, Wallace provided Cunningham with lists, including a list of "dozens" that could be found in the library. The books labeled "pornographic" included books promoting acceptance of LGBTQ views. Other books in Wallace's list of pornographic books [were] about "critical race theory" and related racial themes. In other communications, Defendants refer to them as "CRT and LGBTQ" books. In the email, Wallace advocated for the books to be relocated to the adult section because "[i]t is the only way that [she] could think of to prohibit future censorship of books [she does] agree with."
That same day, Cunningham and Moss ordered Milum, "[a]s action items to be done immediately," to pull books that contained "sexual activity or questionable nudity" from the shelves …. On November 12, 2021, Defendants removed several books on the Bonnie Wallace Spreadsheet from the Llano Library Branch shelves, including, for example, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, They Called Themselves the K.K.K.: The Birth of an American Terrorist Group, Being Jazz: My Life as a (Transgender) Teen, and Spinning….
The physical books at issue in this case, although "available" for checkout are hidden from view and absent from the catalog. Their existence is not discernible to the public, nor is their availability. An injury [to the plaintiffs, who are asserting their rights as would-be readers -EV] exists because the library's "in-house checkout system" still places "a significant burden on Library Patrons' ability to gain access to those books." …
The Supreme Court has recognized that public libraries should be afforded "broad discretion" in their collection selection process, in which library staff must necessarily consider books' content. See U.S. v. Am. Library Assn., Inc., 539 U.S. 194, 205 (2003) (plurality). But this discretion is not absolute, and it applies only to materials' selection. In fact, the Fifth Circuit, adopting the Supreme Court's plurality in Pico, has recognized a "First Amendment right to receive information" which prevents libraries from "remov[ing] books from school library shelves 'simply because they dislike the ideas contained in these books.'" Campbell v. St. Tammany Par. Sch. Bd. (5th Cir. 1995). "The key inquiry in a book removal case" is whether the government's "substantial motivation" was to deny library users access to ideas with which [the government] disagreed."
Here, Plaintiffs have sufficiently pled that Defendants' conduct was substantially motivated by a desire to remove books promoting ideas with which disagreed. They plainly allege that Defendants removed, ordered the removal, or pursued the removal of the books at issue "because they disagree with their political viewpoints and dislike their subject matter."
Defendants do not argue otherwise. Instead, they contend that Plaintiffs have not stated a claim because the removal decisions were "government speech to which the First Amendment does not apply." But as Plaintiffs' note, the cases Defendants cite mostly involve the initial selection, not removal, of materials. See, e.g., Am. Library ("The principles underlying [the precedent] also apply to a public library's exercise of judgment in selecting the material it provides to its patrons."); PETA v. Gittens (D.C. Cir. 2005) (analogizing the discretion afforded to library's book collection decisions to the commission's art selection decisions). As the Fifth Circuit held in Campbell, removal decisions are subject to the First Amendment and are evaluated based on whether the governments' "substantial motivation in arriving at the removal decision" was discriminatory. Here, Plaintiff has clearly pled that Defendants had this motivation.
Defendants contend that Campbell and Pico do not apply to this context because those cases dealt with book removals from public school libraries, which may be subject to unique constitutional rules…. [T]he Court agrees that the precedent indicates public school libraries are a unique environment for constitutional analysis. Campbell, Pico, and Chiras suggest that school officials' discretion is particularly broad for book selection in public school libraries because of schools' unique inculcative function. However, the right to access to information first identified in Pico and subsequently adopted by the Fifth Circuit in Cambpell has "even greater force when applied to public libraries," since public libraries are "designed for freewheeling inquiry," and the type of discretion afforded to school boards is not implicated.
Defendants, like other government officials implicated in maintaining libraries, have broad discretion to select and acquire books for the library's collection. But the Fifth Circuit recognizes a First Amendment right to access to information in libraries, a right that applies to book removal decisions. Plaintiffs have clearly stated a claim that falls squarely within this right: that Defendants removed the books at issue to prevent access to viewpoints and content to which they objected….
And the district court went on to hold that plaintiffs were likely to prevail on the claim, and therefore granted them a preliminary injunction; the full list of books that had to be reinstated consisted of:
a. Caste: The Origins of Our Discontent by Isabel Wilkerson;
b. Called Themselves the K.K.K: The Birth of an American Terrorist Group by Susan Campbell Bartoletti;
c. Spinning by Tillie Walden;
d. In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak;
e. It's Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex and Sexual Health by Robie Harris;
f. My Butt is So Noisy!, I Broke My Butt!, and I Need a New Butt! by Dawn McMillan;
g. Larry the Farting Leprechaun, Gary the Goose and His Gas on the Loose, Freddie the Farting Snowman, and Harvey the Heart Has Too Many Farts by Jane Bexley;
h. Being Jazz: My Life as a (Transgender) Teen by Jazz Jennings;
i. Shine by Lauren Myracle;
j. Under the Moon: A Catwoman Tale by Lauren Myracle;
k. Gabi, a Girl in Pieces by Isabel Quintero; and
l. Freakboy by Kristin Elizabeth Clark.
(The court didn't separately discuss the objections to the Butt and Fart books, which seemed to be less focused on viewpoint and more on perceived vulgar content.) Note that it's unsettled whether viewpoint-based removals of books from school library shelves are constitutional—Board of Ed. v. Pico (1982) didn't resolve the issue—but the Fifth Circuit has indeed held that such removals are unconstitutional. And if even school libraries can't engage in such removals, the matter is even clearer as to public libraries, for the reason the District Court mentions.
Congratulations to Ellen Leonida, Matthew Borden, J. Noah Hagey, Sarah Salomon, Pratik Ghosh & Amy Senia (Braunhagey & Borden LLP) and Ryan Botkin, Katherine P. Chiarello & María Amelia Calaf (Wittliff | Cutter PLLC), who represent plaintiffs.
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The distinction between selection and removal seems forced. If a library can decide “we are not buying Book X because it offends our community,” then I don’t see why it cannot say, “we bought Book X before, but that was a mistake, as the community has since indicated it is offended, and so we are now removing it.”
I'm not sure the court is saying they can decide not to buy Book X "because it offends our community". They could decide not to buy the book for lots of other reasons (probably including "it won't interest our community" or "it won't get signed out enough to be worth the money") but "it's offensive" doesn't even give a pretext toward honoring the First Amendment.
If my logic is correct (and I concede that no court has squarely said so), then the distinction between selection and removal is that "some other librarian reached a contrary conclusion at the point of buying so it is at least possible that the removal justification is a mere pretext for viewpoint-based discrimination - that's not proof of discrimination but it's enough to send the case to a jury". Which is, after all, where this case is at so far.
It is important to note that when a library selects a book to buy, it necessarily does not select another book. Is the book not selected “banned?”
The current president of The American Library Association describes herself as a “Marxist lesbian” and is all over the internet proclaiming her goal of “queering” the library. The ALA claims 54,000 members. This woman was elected with a little over 5000 votes and she had opposition of a little over 4000 votes. So she was elected by about 10% of the members. This is typical of many professional associations captured by radicals. They are a minority but the have the megaphone.
Libraries, like other taxpayer supported entities, have limited budgets and must choose which books to buy. They have selection policies for this reason and unfortunately often rely on recommendations from you guessed it, the ALA. Given its agenda, it hands out awards in its name for these materials and promotes them to libraries on that basis. Most people assume that librarians are trained to identify literary merit but this is not the case as we can see. I would bet that much of their training today is based on the various critical theories and designed to undermine critical thinking rather than illuminate.
I would bet that much of their training today is based on the various critical theories and designed to undermine critical thinking rather than illuminate.
Funny you should mention critical thinking. That is the opposite. Here, for free, is one of the two most important tests to assure critical thinking: be sure you can answer the question, "How do I know that?"
The other important test? Make sure the math works.
I must admit to being at least a little puzzled; I know that librarians routinely remove books from circulation, as well as curating the content on the intake end of things, too, and I've got enough experience interacting with them to know that they damned well do take viewpoint into account when doing so.
So it's not like viewpoint based removal doesn't happen, and won't happen going forward.
So, who exactly gets to make these calls, if not the people who were put in charge of regulating the library?
Does it not occur to the judiciary that if you take the electorate's ability to regulate the public libraries they're paying for, they may just shut them down entirely?
Or would they be forbidden to do that, too?
Don't interpret my above remarks as endorsing the details of the attempted curation. I'm simply pointing out that curation of content is unavoidable, and only the most naive person would think it's not being done on the basis of content. So, how do the judges pick who gets to do it?
Democrat judges will review those decisions and decide which decisions are within the discretion of librarians or officials based on the politics of those librarians or officials.
Obama judge but pushed twice [for US attorney and then judge] by "conservative" GOP senators.
Or, to be more accurate, conservative GOP senators forced Obama to nominate him.
Curation is a skill, part of a librarian’s professional duties. Small-minded extremists trying to force the library to conform to their narrow Puritanical ideas of what should be stocked is not curation.
And yes, people who will ban books will close down libraries. You’ll just stand there looking puzzled with your MA45 Super-Automatic-Anti-Tyranny-Gun pointing at your foot mumbling rationalisations.
Well, yeah, if you haven’t noticed, that’s the goal. These bigots want to destroy public education, public libraries and anything else that contradicts their worldview.
I suspect most of them don’t really want to live in a shithole, but that’s what they’re turning their local communities in to. And then they complain when their smart kids leave for somewhere with opportunities and mates with full sets of teeth…
"mates with full sets of teeth"
Speaking of bigots.
I'm referring to my own experience, you pathetic fool.
I’m referring to my own experience
So you married your sister?
Pretending Idiots get things Right is how we got here
Stop defending Moronacy and let it come to an end
being so stupid you're only real use can be as "Tiger Bait" is NOT a Normal Human Condition
These bigots want to destroy public education, public libraries
Destroy what? Have you been tracking education outcomes of the last 3 decades? There is very little left to destroy. Millions of kids cannot read at grade level. But you are intent on teaching 10 year old boys how to give a blowjob.
Assuming that people won't get educated if the government doesn't run the schools is like assuming that people will starve to death if the government doesn't run the farms and kitchens. Important things actually happen in this world without the government doing them, you do know that, right?
I actually would rather the government stopped running schools, and just helped out people who couldn't afford tuition. I'd rather we did things that way, not because I want people to be ignorant, but because I DON'T want them to be ignorant! And sometimes the government has other priorities in education than eliminating ignorance.
Oh yeah, people got educated before governments started state education. Just not very many of them.
Just not very many of them.
Our high schools had far fewer dropouts before federal Dept of education was created.
It is beyond me how people can defend public education, and condone the plummeting test scores. (with tests dumbed down from 3 decades ago.)
So the Ability to read in the modern world is UNIMPORTANT?
I googled
"what percentage of the Population could read before the advent of public education?
We can see that two centuries ago only a small elite of the world population had the ability to read and write – the best estimate is that 12% of the world population was literate. Over the course of the 19th century global literacy more than doubled.
https://ourworldindata.org/literacy#:~:text=We%20can%20see%20that%20two,global%20literacy%20more%20than%20doubled.
I actually worked at a library for a while. So I have a pretty good idea how they operate. And I used to donate books to my local library; Making sure to get the hard cover editions on acid free paper where possible.
The librarians were pretty ruthless about getting rid of books that presented sides of controversies they didn't want represented in their collection. Often in a direction that ran rather contrary to the local population's views.
Since the library was funded by that very population, that's pretty nervy, and not really a stable situation.
Getting rid of means they got the books in the first place, and with your propensity for mind-reading, speculation and paranoia, the rest is easy to deduce.
Yes, that's right: When I found they had a copy of Arming America, rather than asking them to remove it on account of it being a work of fraud, I simply donated a copy of a book by Halbrook, to counter it.
They got rid of it, instead of including both sides of the argument in their collection.
They have to have some standards, obviously. They probably set aside all the donated Dianetics books, too.
So, you see, you're actually OK with library viewpoint discrimination, so long as they're discriminating against viewpoints you personally dislike. What kind of diversity of opinion is that, that has to pass your personal approval?
A library probably SHOULD have books on Dianetics. And the Principia Discordia, too. It would be a pretty pathetic library collection that didn't offend you in some way.
I don't like what the library board is doing here. I'm just having trouble seeing how it's different in any principled way from what librarians routinely do. Routinely do in the real world, not what Platonic ideal librarians are supposed to be doing.
You can't find a viewpoint neutral standard that doesn't allow Arming America or Dianetics? Really?
Yeah, I can't. If you're going to include the Bible and the Koran, why not Dianetics? Scientology may be a scam religion, created on a drunken bet, and kept running as a criminal conspiracy, but there are enough idiot believers out there that people should be able to look up what they stupidly believe BEFORE providing their blackmail info and ending up trapped.
And of course I want Arming America in the library. Mind, I'd probably put a sticker on the inside cover mentioning that he'd lost that prize for academic fraud, and put it next to a less fraudulent work, so nobody would encounter it without being warned, but I'd include it. I mean, I own a copy myself! You're pretty badly prepared to argue with somebody if you don't know what they believe.
I generally think both sides of controversies, all sides, should be presented.
Courts have managed to distinguish Scientology as an institution from actual religions just fine, though. Individuals may believe it as a matter of conscience, but the church itself is more fraud than religion.
And that's a fine viewpoint neutral rubric of distinction for books - no self-help or business how-to books. In fact, I would suspect plenty of libraries I've been in have such a rule.
You're working hard to say there can be no bright lines so you can insist on centralized political control. Yet again. This is what you have become.
@Sarcasr0: "No self-help or business how-to books" is very much a content-based rule. And I seriously doubt many, if any, libraries prohibit self-help books.
"Courts have managed to distinguish Scientology as an institution from actual religions just fine, though."
News to me.
"Individuals may believe it as a matter of conscience, but the church itself is more fraud than religion."
Of course it is. I mentioned that it is widely known to have been created on a drunken bet, and run as a criminal conspiracy. I'm not all that sure that distinguishes it from several other religions I could name, of course, (The Anglican Church, famously, was created because a king wanted a divorce.) but for 1st amendment purposes the question isn't whether the people who founded a religion took it seriously, the question is whether the individual making the 1st amendment claim does. It is rather remarkable that people will actually join a religion that you can PROVE was created on a bet, but they do.
Nor did my rationale for including books on Scientology in a library's collection depend on it NOT being a scam. Quite the opposite: It's actually quite important that people have a way to learn about a scam WITHOUT talking to the scammer. You want people to have to learn about Ponzi scams from Ponzi, too?
Are you unclear about my thinking the actual curation was stupid? I'm just not buying the claim that the government curating its own library implicates the 1st amendment. The 1st amendment is about the government curating other peoples' libraries.
There are perfectly good books about how scientology is a scam. Is Bare-Faced Messiah still in print? There, job done.
DavyC – we’re talking viewpoint, not content. I agree it is absolutely content-based.
Brett – It’s actually quite important that people have a way to learn about a scam WITHOUT talking to the scammer Dude, stay with the thread.
We were discussing whether a viewpoint-neutral criterion exists, and now you’re making policy. I know you have trouble distinguishing is from ought, but this is pretty egregious.
Librarians do it because it’s their job and they’re paid to do it and they’re trained to do it. You can't see a difference because you don’t want to see a difference because a librarian once decided they didn’t want your crappy donated book.
Nige, in fairness, some practical considerations—especially the size of the library and the mission of the library—need consideration. School libraries, for instance, tend to be small, and try to fulfill a dual mission, to support the curriculum, and to inculcate reading. Those premises come with implications for collection management policies—which would probably not include much in the way of gun advocacy, pro or con.
A somewhat bigger public library might have more inclination to stock books focused on gun policy, but still confront problems deciding whether any—pro or con—were worth public trust. If you have room for only a few books on a topic, you don't want to fill that little niche with one-sided or incompetent presentations. You might decide to forego filling the niche, if you could not do it adequately in the space and with the budget available. Of course a decision like that is bound to provoke muttering from suspicious topical enthusiasts like Bellmore.
At the next step up, you could have a very large public library, or an academic research library. Bellmore's advocacy and criticism might appropriately apply there, where resources, space, and mission were all in alignment to support the goal to adequately represent a fraught topic across a broad range of views. Of course, if Bellmore checked into those, he would probably find present practice left him nothing to quibble with.
Bellmore doesn't get any of that, of course. Nor do the other library scolds. This from the decision seems good advice for all of them:
"The key inquiry in a book removal case" is whether the government's "substantial motivation" was to deny library users access to ideas with which [the government] disagreed.
you seem to miss the point Nige
they FIRED the Librarians and INSTALLED their "Librarians" so they could get their way
and ALL Librarians that THINK they have the Right to Decide what the Public should be thinking ARE quite Fascist, anything what so ever that entertains the concept of "Big Bother" is WHOLLY Fascist
the ONLY time that isn't so is when you CONTROL the STUPID!
and to answer the STUPID question you're thinking up
is it Ethical to let a Moron wander into traffic, or is it ethical to slap the moron up side the head and tell him to watch where he is going?
the Stupid are NOT Normal, and using them as a comparison is comparing apples to magnets!
the rest is easy to deduce.
Oh yes, deducing is so much more sophisticated than mind reading.
It does seem like a difficult line to draw.
If a librarian chooses to stock a book partially because it presents a viewpoint they favor it seems like that should be just as impermissible as choosing not to stock a book partially because it presented a viewpoint they disfavored. Such logic would seem to extend to removing a book as well.
In a democracy it seems that the closer one is to being elected, the more say they should generally should have in such decisions. If the Head Librarian were an elected position, he should have substantial leeway. Since the Head Librarian is not elected, the first elected official above the Head Librarian in the org chart should generally be allowed to override the Head Librarian — and pay the price at the polls if the voters don’t like it.
Would these books have been on the shelf if they offered an opposing viewpoint? I suspect not.
Libraries generally stock wide ranges of books with wide ranges of viewpoints, such that budget and space will allow. I know 'diversity' is a dirty word round here but a library that does not have a diverse range of books is, well, a boring library that's a disservice to its members.
BadLib, imaginary takes on how you suppose libraries must be managed are unhelpful. Proposals for public policy to correct imaginary mismanagement in libraries invite attacks on liberty.
Get a grip and inform yourself about how libraries operate.
Proposals for public policy to correct imaginary mismanagement in libraries invite attacks on liberty.
I would think such proposals would be the singular domain of the elected library board. I missed that part about having to get the proposals cleared by a judge.
Age appropriate
Everyone probably agrees that learning algebra and geometry are important, but we dont try to force algebra and geometry on 1st, 2nd and 3rd graders. That level of math is inappropriate. So why is exposing kids to what most individuals (normal individuals ) would consider inappropriate. Kids have vastly more important skills that they need to learn at that age than social mores experimentation.
As I understand the case, this is a public library, not a school library. The youth are simultaneously "exposed" to the entire contents of the library, from the picture books to the graduate-level texts. Enforcement of age-appropriateness in book selection at the public library is entirely the parents' responsibility.
Age-appropriateness is a reasonable argument for school libraries but I think it has no real place in this suit.
In most if not all public libraries I've been in, there are separate sections for children, young adults, and adults, precisely for this reason -- parents can take their kids into a given area and let them explore without worrying that they're going to run across a Larry Flynt bio. And our current public library just rolled out a secondary level of protection at checkout, with each child's library card assigned one of four different access tiers for various combinations of the children's/young adults material. (Yes, parents should be actively engaged in understanding what their kids are choosing to bring home from the library. But this sort of thing is certainly a good first-cut filter.)
I'm afraid this summary is rather confusing. Who are the plaintiffs? Why aren't they named, as the defendants are? Who are Campbell and Moss? What is their relationship to the Library? What is the purpose of referring to a "Community group" in this context?
Hopefully the 5th Circuit will overrule its 1995 precedent.
It makes no sense that a librarian's initial content based decision to stock a book can never be reviewed. It gives unfettered discretion to an employee and binds subsequent officials from ever changing the decision.
Kind of like how Obama could create DACA unilaterally but Trump couldn't rescind it unilaterally?
One way ratchet which always benefits one side.
Yes, the right never uses reliance interests successfully in court due to how persecuted conservative positions are in the judicial system.
Oh look, another lie from Bob!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remain_in_Mexico
1. These people are no fun.
2. Ban Maurice Sendak? Fuck you.
In The Night Kitchen has drawings wherein a baby's diaper comes off and his little penis is exposed! Gasp! How would children seeing this ever recover?
It is arguably Sendak's best book. I particularly like the two chefs modeled on Laurel and Hardy.
It's a sublime work.
Teachers and academics change their syllabi all the time, when they do they tend to remove things, and this removal is always content-based, always based on a judgment that the removed content is inappropriate (or the content replacing it is more appropriate, which for constitutional purposes amounts to the same thing.)
I see no reason why libraries should be treated any differently.
Nor do I see the First Amendment as somehow specially priveleging the opinions of academics, teachers, and elites and “experts” generally, so that if they say to remove something it’s constitutional, but if non-elite people say to remove something, it’s not constitutional.
The First Amendment simply doesn’t privilege elite over non-elite views.
So either the school curriculum can never change, and tectbooks on Greek and Latin, quill penmanship, sewing, etc. must all be restored and can never be removed from the curriculum to make way for Spanish, biology, etc. because the First Amendment prohibits any content removal as a suppression of speech, or educators and their public supervising bodies get to remove and change things pretty much as they please, and courts have to defer to their judgment about what they think appropriate to include and not include.
I think the latter is the case. A school dropping a book because it believes the book violates the moral values it wants to inculcate is no different from a school dropping a book on COBOL or slide rule use because it thinks it violates the marketable skills it wants to inculcate. One is no more a violation of tbe First Amendment than the other.
I think if you're going to step up and try to force libraries and schools to remove books that don't conform to your personal morality just because you're loud, well-financed and have the support of one of the two major political parties, then it might.
Why isn’t the idea that knowledge should be used for purposes of marketable skills simply a moral value, somebody’s personal morality, and what makes it a superior moral value for First Amendment purposes to some other theory of what knowledge is good for, or some other theory of moral values?
It’s common in these sorts of discussions to think that “moral values” apply only to the sorts of things other people believe, and to completely fail to grasp that what they think is obviously right is just as much a “moral value” as the next guy’s belief. The idea that people should have marketables skills is as much a moral value as any other.
And you don’t think that the fact that education these days mostly serves to build marketable skills isn’t due to the influence of well-financed people? People forcing libraries and schools to remove the sewing and the Greek and Latin classes and teach computers instead, to serve their moral values? Even removing the COBOL books to teach Python is a moral decision, based on the idea that marketability is more valuable than aesthetic beauty, historical value, and other moral values that might favor COBOL.
Get serious about moral relativism, and a lot of claims get mown down.
In the sense that if certain types of knowledge become necessary for 'marketable skills' libraries will stock the books that help people acquire them. The morality there is one of serving the community's needs. They also stock other books, generally. If people aren't coming to the libraries looking for Greek and Latin texts, they're not likely to stock them, but that doesn't mean that they're not available via inter-library loan - preserving that kind of knowledge is also part of the morality of libraries, including books about out-of-vogue programming languages. Sewing and other crafts are actually pretty popular, I'd be surprised if most libraries didn't have books about them, if not actual sewing circles.
ReaderY, nothing wrong with your analysis, except the practicality of making use of it. I don't think it works if society concedes access to your justifications to social splinter groups, who self-actuate to get power for the purpose to enforce specific viewpoint agendas.
On the other hand, if we suppose a sort of social osmosis, by which your thinking seeps into and pervades existing social structures established mostly for other practical purposes, then your reasoning seems more helpful.
This case did not involve a school library, but rather the general public library. I'm failing to see any curriculum being advanced by public libraries.
They don’t serve any educational purpose?
There primary purpose is not to inculcate specific points of view, but to make available to the general public broadly differing points of view.
There primary purpose is not to inculcate specific points of view,
Exactly who is 'they'? Who gave 'they', the power to make such decisions? More accurately, what gives 'they' the power to overrule the elected board of directors?
To tax people and not give them a say on how the money is spent is tyranny.
Private libraries would solve this.
To claim that paying taxes gives you the right to remove books you don't like from libraries is egomaniacal. Everybody else who uses the library pays taxes too and deserve better than to have it degraded by arrogant small-minded little tyrants.
Nige defending tyranny?
But of course -- take my money you will here from me. Librarians are public servants.
Ah, yes, the tyranny of the professional librarian doing their job free from the interference of ideological extremists. Your taxes entitle you to take any book you like out from a library - but only with a card.
Ah yes, the pure professional librarian who has no personal biases whatsoever and is certainly guaranteed to not be an ideological extremest.
Difference between somone employed for a job they're trained and qualified to do and some weirdos who don't like Maurice Sendak books.
Why do you assume that this small group of loudmouth idiots speaks for all the taxpayers?
And why is it not the job of the parents to see to what their kids read? Are they too fucking busy messing with school curricula to notice?
Idiots they may be, just as they are taxpayers.
To deny them a voice is still tyranny.
No, to be forced to give in to the voice of a loud-mouth minority whose demands are that books be removed from libraries - that's tyranny.
Might makes right!
Yeah, that's tyranny, suppressing stuff you don't like.
We get it -- you don't like minorities having power.
Too bad!
Minorities can have their books stocked in the library, too, in fact it's encouraged.
I would consider being forced to live in a country where narrow-minded idiots decided for me what I or my children could read as tyranny. Particularly if I didn't have enough money to purchase my own books and depended on the public library.
Is it really the libertarian conservative view now that it's good for governments to determine what is or isn't proper reading material for its citizens?
I'd rather no books be removed -- but I say again, to give the people paying for those books no say in the matter is tyranny.
No, it isn't. It's the stupidest definition of tyranny I've seen here, and there have been some doozies. Especially since every taxpayer has a say about what's stocked in the library - that's what request slips are for.
But this seems to be turning request slips into demand slips.
'We demand you remove some books because we're hateful' slips.
They do have a say, just not a viewpoint discriminatory one.
Isn't it just as tyrannical for governments to decide what its citizens can or can't read? Even if the government is acting on the ostensible will of the majority?
Smartest thing you've ever said
Best comeback you've ever managed.
He isn't arguing that the government should decide what it's citizens can read, but rather the taxpayers shouldn't subsidize what the majority doesn't want read. The problem with that viewpoint is it is an argument against public libraries in the first place.
But in these cases "the majority" isn't deciding on a book by book basis what taxpayers will subsidize. A small group of people with strong opinions are hijacking the process. I understand that this gets into issues of republicanism and exactly how governments represent the majority, but I think it is a bad faith argument to say that this or that book isn't approved by a majority of the taxpayers. People in the minority on any given issue also pay taxes.
Of course, we can't know whether any particular book is approved by the majority. Nor, can we know whether any particular application of any law is. That's a feature, not a bug of our republican form of government. Given that reality, I find it perfectly in good faith to argue that any application of any law is the will of the majority (don't like books being removed, remove the library board).
That being said, the problem in this case is the majority shouldn't decide what books are removed.
To deny them a voice is still tyranny.
To refuse to accede to the wishes of a small group just because they yell loudly is not tyranny.
Yeah. They are taxpayers, but contrary to your implicit assumption, they are not the only taxpayers. The fact is that the taxpayers, taken as a whole, have a diverse set of views. So why shouldn't the library have a diverse set of books?
See my longer comment above -- there's definitely value in kids exploring library shelves without helicoptering parents standing over their shoulder monitoring their every move. Keeping the queer theory and smut books out of the young children's section so parents aren't forced to throw out the baby with the bathwater doesn't seem like a lot to ask.
'Keeping the queer theory and smut books'
I think keeping bigoted reactionaries out of there is more useful.
What about the "religion trumps science and the reality-based world," "evolution is a demonic plot launched from hell," "superstition-based bigotry isn't really bigotry," and "the Confederates were just trying to protect their legitimate interests and got a raw deal" books?
Hey Artie -- long time no hear. I know interrupting your caterwauling with actual legwork isn't really your thing, but just in case you get a wild hair you can consult the Llano library system's online catalog for any specific titles in the kids' section that may concern you. Cheers!
"Why do you assume that this small group of loudmouth idiots speaks for all the taxpayers?"
Elected officials appointed them to the board. Taxpayers elected those officials to speak for them. Why do you hate democracy?
Apparently democracy means having to shut up when idiots remove books from libraries.
The majority might want their tax dollars spent only to help white people. But of course, doing so would violate the Constitution. Therefore, the principle that the majority gets it will in how tax dollars are spent can't be absolute.
In this case, the key question is whether the public library is a vehicle for the government (and hence the majority of taxpayers) to disseminate a message it likes. I don't think so. To the contrary, it's purpose is to make a board spectrum of viewpoints available to the public, and the majority should yield.
That is an argument that I can accept -- as long as there is means to seek redress.
One would hope that librarians would take all citizens tastes seriously, but considering the number of librarians who support the mass rewriting of books that is currently all the rage, they do not have clean hands and deserve a check on their power.
'who support the mass rewriting of books'
The rewriting of books is being done by big publishing corporations who control the IP of the books they're rewriting. Nothing whatsoever to do with librarians. The library system is the place to go to find the un-rewritten versions.
Wouldn’t the Constitution, as interpreted in this decision, be the check you are seeking? For example, a librarian couldn't remove an anti-CRT book. Of course, I might have missed what you meant by "mass rewriting of books."
I wonder if the recent Dr. Seuss case is what is meant. Of course that wasn't caused by librarians or even publishers, but rather the wishes of the Geisel family.
More than just Dr. Seuss is bing rewritten and they've just begun.
And yes, many librarians support it.
Librarians have nothing to do with it. It's pure IP management by capitalist corporations.
Please give examples that involve librarian rewriting books.
"And yes, many librarians support it."
RIF
Well, in the sense that they’re probably happier not to be loaning out Agatha Christie’s ‘And Then There Were None’ under its original title, perhaps.
How do librarians support the mass rewriting of books?
I don't know what RIF is.
Reading is fundamental. He is suggesting you misread his comment.
considering the number of librarians who support the mass rewriting of books that is currently all the rage,
You mean like the situation in FL where references to Rosa Parks' race were deleted?
'to disseminate a message it likes'
If a library doesn't have a book you would like to read, you just fill in a request slip.
Ah yes, tyranny of the library book selection.
Better go water that tree of liberty with it!
Do simplistic and melodramatic.
OK, racist
?
Can they find a dozen equally offensive books to remove to make room?
Generally they remove books that aren't being borrowed or that are about to fall apart.
So, in the end, the librarian doesn't work for the taxpayers, the taxpayers work for the librarian.
In the sense that they work for the taxpayers - an unwieldy concept at best except in the abstract - they work for more than just the loud screechy ones who hate books.
Well, that's true. But, again, the people making these decisions are not random screechy citizens. They're the library system's duly appointed board. These decisions, however stupid, would appear to be within their authority.
I don't have to like what they're doing to think that.
These decisions, however stupid, would appear to be within their authority.
Apparently not.
That's how rights work - they remove certain decisions otherwise within the authority of a policymaking body. Saying but if you ignore the 1A bit, this is within their authority, is not even addressing the case here.
I’m not ignoring the 1st amendment bit. I think the 1st amendment bit is quite absurd. It’s a government library, I agree that the choice of content is government speech.
You realize, this isn’t the era anymore when books were so expensive the only way you’d ever read one if you weren’t wealthy is if a library carried it. This is the era where people of ordinary means own hundreds, even thousands of books, where you can get access to most titles in seconds. Libraries are a solution to a scarcity problem that has simply gone away.
So to pretend that the library deciding to stop stocking a book actually denies it to anybody is crazy.
You absolutely ignored the First Amendment above.
Now, you're arguing (a new argument because you forgot about the 1A it seems) that the 1A doesn't apply to libraries because books are cheap now. That is literally your argument.
Brett, rights apply to everyone, and books are not that cheap. Quit being so self centered in your 'analysis.'
Get it straight: I’m arguing that the 1st amendment doesn’t apply to the government’s own libraries because the selection of works in them is the government’s own speech, not somebody else’s speech. The 1st amendment is implicated when the government decides what can be in YOUR library, not its own!
AND I’m arguing that because scarcity in books is all but gone, a government library deciding not to stock a book does not meaningfully infringe your access to it. The library not having a book doesn’t imply that you can’t read it.
TWO arguments.
So, what’s the contrary argument? That libraries must carry every conceivable book, or else they’re violating the 1st amendment? Because there are some academic works out there that I’d love to read, if they weren’t so damned expensive; I may have purchased thousands of books over my life, and even after the move have a few hundred, but there are books out there even I won’t shell out for. Is the local library thus obligated to?
I’m not seeing where this argument has a rational stopping point, short of every branch library having to be the Library of Congress!
Read the OP re: government speech doctrine, and the contrary argument you seek:
"As the Fifth Circuit held in Campbell, removal decisions are subject to the First Amendment and are evaluated based on whether the governments' "substantial motivation in arriving at the removal decision" was discriminatory. Here, Plaintiff has clearly pled that Defendants had this motivation."
AND poor people still like to read.
"I’m not seeing where this argument has a rational stopping point, short of every branch library having to be the Library of Congress!"
Are you conflating shelving with removal, in order to prove that shelving and removal cannot be distinguished?
That's some amazing question begging.
Lots of rights only attach only once something has been given. Property, for instance.
AND poor people still like to read.
It's not that hard. What the court is saying is that whatever the reasons one might legitimately not acquire a book or get rid of a book, substantially discriminatory reasons are not among them. If you get rid of a book that nobody has borrowed in ten years because nobody has borrowed it in ten years, that is not, on the face of it, a substantially discriminatory reason. Not acquiring a book on a particular subject because you already have a lot of books on the subject, or, conversely, because you think there would be no interest in a book on that particular subject, is not a substantially discriminatory reason. Replacing an old book on a subject with one that incorporates newer scholarship is not a substantially discriminatory reason. Getting rid of, or not acquiring, a book that teaches children how to give blowjobs is not a substantially discriminatory reason. Getting rid of, or not acquiring, a book featuring characters, say, two married males raising a kid, who, offstage or off-page, one could infer are giving each other blowjobs if you bother to think about it -- just as one could infer what Dick and Jane's parents get up to when we're not reading about them -- may be.
There will be edge cases, but there is a wide space clear of doubt.
They're responding to random screechy citizen pressure, which is why other citizens need to speak up in support of not banning books rather than shrugging their shoulders and saying 'oh well.'
As a librarian (and the husband of another), I agree in finding it bizarre that the same criteria should not govern the selection of a book as its removal. In practice, both (perhaps especially selection) are governed heavily by considerations of viewpoint, regardless of whether the selector is a 'professional librarian' or not. Most obviously, more than one library I know buys lots of books of the "How to stay Woke" and "The coming environmental apocalypse" variety -- but none at all that display the least skepticism toward current pieties. Another, under a previous director (a Catholic) was not averse to selecting books with a religious viewpoint; under a later director, of different views, religious-themed books were strictly avoided, and those already on the shelves were removed. In public libraries, even ones that attempt balance, 'will some people be offended?' (or 'will *I* be offended?', alongside 'is this congruent with my ideology?') is a constant criterion in both selection and withdrawal, and is perhaps reinforced by the manifest bias in the more frequently cited review sources. The smaller the library, and the smaller the budget, the more these considerations apply, but even in the biggest most comprehensive collections personal and class bias (and ultimately the bias of those who pay the bills) is a constant. I can't see that involving the courts improves matters.
I suppose involving the courts only improve matters to the extent that the constitutional limits on government actions are followed. I think there are good arguments on both sides of this particular constitutional question.
No, there aren't "good arguments on both sides". The idea that the First Amendment somehow allows viewpoint discrimination in what books to add to a library's collection but not in what books to remove from that same collection is simply, entirely, and ludicrously idiotic.
Exactly, and if this decision stands, eventually that judge, or another, is going to prohibit viewpoint discrimination in which books to add, too. Because there's really no principled difference.
Brett, DRM is a moron appealing to incredulity. You provided a (wrong) argument above, you don't need to stoop that low.
And did you read the opinion about the principled difference here? If so, maybe engage with it, not just say 'nuh-uh.'
Well, DRM, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. There are a lot of pretty smart and knowledgable people who disagree with you. It will be interesting to see how this question is ultimately resolved.
If the law says that you cannot keep (what you consider to be) highly inappropriate children’s books out of the library that your taxes pay for, the only solution I see is to shut down that library.
If some random weirdo can't get a Maurice Sendak book removed, shut the library down.
So you claim that the law should let any taxpayer have any book removed from the library.
That's idiotic.
This is just such an obvious backlash against "banning" (not banning) books, and is never going to hold up. Librarians make viewpoint-based decisions about the books in their library CONSTANTLY, and library space is a finite resource.
Of course that viewpoint is usually - 'what will the library users enjoy reading.'
It just dawned on me that something important has been in transition for a few decades across rural America. Previously, farm families, including the kids, got hard nosed practical exposure to sexual information from a very early age. Maybe livestock management experience tended to suppress moral panics about sexual topics. You could hardly grow up around a barnyard and not notice that chickens fucking was a pretty natural, commonplace occurrence.
Now, not many rural folks actually encounter brute nature in quite that same way. The parents of a 7-year-old girl on an old-fashioned farm would hardly have been surprised to learn she knew what a penis was, and what it was for.
Today's rural/suburban parents are sort of the first generation that grew up in the sticks, but without that old-fashioned intimacy with nature. Maybe before they all head off to the library, they ought to have a talk with grandma (that former 7-year-old). She could tell them the barnyard may be gone, but don't panic about what you see in the library.