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Ban on Knowingly False Statements During Emergencies Struck Down on First Amendment Grounds
From Judge Pedro Delgado-Hernández's opinion today in Rodriguez-Cotto v. Perluisi-Urrutia (D.P.R.):
Article 5.14(a) criminalizes, after the Governor of Puerto Rico has decreed by executive order an emergency or disaster, to knowingly, purposely or recklessly: (1) give a warning or false alarm, knowing that the information is false, in relation to the imminent occurrence of a catastrophe in Puerto Rico; or (2) disseminate, publish, transmit, transfers or circulate through any means of communication, including the media, social networks, or any other means of dissemination, publication or distribution of information, a notice or a false alarm, knowing that the information is false, when as a result of that conduct it puts the life, health, bodily integrity or safety of one or more persons at imminent risk, or endangers public or private property. Properly read, Article 5.14(a) does not survive strict or intermediate scrutiny….
The court reasoned that the proper remedy was generally for the government to rebut false rumors, not to criminalize them:
[T]he Government did not prove why counter-speech in the form of increased transparency, would fail to accomplish its interests. The Government states that during the state of emergency, a person caused disruption in the food supply chain by falsely announcing that the government would close the food markets, and that although the Government clarified that this was false, the damage was done. But the Government did not submit evidence on who, when and how it sought to address the false message to which it has referred in order to allow the court to gauge the effectiveness of the response. Inversely, plaintiffs submitted clippings of articles about a message regarding closure of supermarkets on the island due to coronavirus, showing the Government has failed to demonstrate that increased transparency would not accomplish its objectives.
One of these articles states that on Friday (March 20, 2020), a person who identified himself as an active member of the church "Casa de Restauración," claimed that Governor Vázquez was preparing to announce a total closure of all businesses, as well as ports; and on March 21, thousands of people filled commercial outlets to buy supplies. The article quotes the Secretary of State of Puerto Rico as denying that supermarkets would close ("Of course not. How are we going to do that?"). Additionally, it quotes the Secretary of the Department of Public Safety as saying, among other things, "as for the WhatsAp message, we do not deny or confirm," and that the government kept an active page to report and evaluate complaints of people who used the media to commit crimes.
If that is how events unfolded, rather than qualifying as transparent, the information originating in government sources was contradictory, e.g. denying, while at the same time, neither denying nor confirming. {It bears noting that on March 30, 2020, among other things, the Governor limited food purchases between 5:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m.; ordered that supermarkets and small grocery stores be closed on Sundays; and that the Department of Natural and Environmental Resources issue orders, guidelines, and circular letters for the closure of all marinas in Puerto Rico. See, Executive Order 2020-029. An article dated April 6, 2020, titled "Puerto Ricans crowd supermarkets as government ramps up restrictions," relates that Puerto Ricans flocked to grocery stores the morning of April 6th, after the Governor announced the previous night stricter regulations for the island's coronavirus lockdown during Holy Week, ordering almost all business including supermarkets and banks to close from Friday to Sunday }
And the purpose of the page that the Secretary mentioned was to report and evaluate complaints, not to place accurate and reliable information before the public. The Government counters that when falseness travels fast, the truth will never be able to reach it on time. However, as Tompros et al. point out, in the wake of the Boston Marathon bombing there was a good deal of false information spreading on various social media platforms, but using those very same platforms, the Boston Police Department ("BPD") quickly refuted and corrected the misinformation. The BPD tweeted an accurate casualty number in response to inflated reports, refuted rumors that a fire at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library was related to the bombing and corrected another rumor that a Saudi man had been arrested.
From this perspective, instead of criminalizing speech, the Legislature could simply have required the Government to use its multiple communications platforms to present a complete and accurate description of the facts. As Justice Kennedy pointed out in Alvarez, "[t]he remedy for
speech that is false is speech that is true . . . [t]he response to the unreasoned is the rational; to the uninformed, the enlightened; to the straightout lie, the simple truth." Justice Breyer agreed with Justice Kennedy that in this realm, "more accurate information will normally counteract the lie." For Justice Breyer, it was likely that a more narrowly tailored statute combined with information-disseminating devices would effectively serve the statute's end. So too with Article 5.14(a). The dynamics of free speech, counter-speech, and refutation can effectively overcome lies. Under these circumstances, there was no clear showing that Article 5.14(a) is necessary to accomplish its stated purpose….
The court concluded that certain other false statement bans, even if constitutional, were narrower than the Puerto Rico ban:
[Title 18 U.S.C. § 1038] prohibits engaging in any conduct with intent to convey false or misleading information under circumstances where such information may reasonably be believed and the information indicates that an activity has taken, is taking, or will take place that would constitute a violation of certain enumerated statutes dealing with, among other things, destruction of aircraft and motor vehicles, biological and chemical weapons, improper use of explosives, improper use of firearms, destruction of shipping vessels, acts of terrorism, sabotage of nuclear facilities, and aircraft piracy. Such hoaxes are designed to instill fear in the public or other target and pose a serious threat to the public's safety. In this context, the false statements "are very likely to bring about" the harm to be prevented.
The F.C.C.'s broadcast hoaxes rule provides that no licensee or permittee of any broadcast station shall broadcast false information concerning a crime or a catastrophe if: (1) the licensee knows this information is false; (2) it is foreseeable that broadcast of the information will cause substantial public harm; and (3) broadcast of the information does in fact directly cause substantial public harm. For purposes of this rule, "public harm" must begin immediately, and cause direct and actual damage to property or to the health and safety of the general public, or diversion of law enforcement or other public health and safety authorities from their duties. The public harm will be deemed foreseeable if the licensee could expect with a significant degree of certainty that public harm would occur. Meanwhile, a "catastrophe" is a disaster or imminent disaster involving a violent or sudden event affecting the public.
Contrary to Section 1038(a) and the F.C.C.'s broadcast hoaxes rule, which identify the events to which the false report must refer, the second clause is open-ended, prohibiting dissemination in a variety of ways of a notice or a false alarm knowing that the information is false if it puts life, health, bodily or safety of one or more person(s) at imminent risk or endangers public or private property. But it is silent as to the content of the alarm or notice. In other words, it leaves people wondering, a notice or false alarm of what? Furthermore, it does not require that speech be likely to result in injury or damages and that such harm be imminent, that is, begin immediately after the speech. The Government did not show why a narrower statute would be insufficient to protect its interests. The level of generality hinders Article 5.14(a)'s ability to fall into one of the historical categories in which false speech has been held unprotected by the First Amendment….
The Government invokes Justice Holmes' observation in Schenck v. U.S. (1919), to the effect that "[t]he most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." It suggests the same formulation applies here because Article 5.14(a) deals with falsehoods and the power of the government to punish such speech involves careful consideration of proximity and degree of the harm. The falsehood that Justice Holmes has in mind connects very closely, directly, and foreseeably to a highly particularized material harm. But as discussed earlier, that is not the case with Article 5.14(a).
These are just some excerpts; for more, read the full opinion. Congratulations to Brian Hauss (ACLU) and Fermin Luis Arraiza-Navas (ACLU of P.R.), who represent the challengers.
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Hoo boy are the Democrats and the Deep State (BIRM) gonna pull out their fainting couches over this.
I wonder if they'll gin up another fedsurrection or transurrection to push some monstrosity through.
https://www.merakiholidayhomes.com/
Future historians will view 2020 as the year that the US had a brush with full-bore fascism. What they also write will depend on if we realize that there were mistakes made, or if we permit the same mistakes to continue...
Have you not seen what the Federals have been doing since 2020?
This is beyond "a brush" we're sliding down the slope.
I’ve seen a political faction take the stance that covid was fake, that lockdowns would be permanent, that masks didn’t work to reduce the spread of an airborne virus, that vaccines were poison, that requring vaccines for working in hispitals full of sick people was like the Holocaust, that other treatments that didn’t work were being suppressed, that thousands were dying because of the vaccines, and even now while people are still dying of covid and governments have given in to their death-cult insistence that public health measures are oppression, criticise the governments for handling badly what they literally claimed was not a pandemic. Those same people are passing laws against a so-called ‘degenerate’ minority, removing books from libraries and suppressing scholarship in colleges and educational courses in schools while performatively wringing their hands about a ‘brush with fascism.’ Any threat to fakery, fruad and disinformation is a threat to you.
I know! We better let the Federals control our speech! It’s for our own good! And for the good of the Trannies! It's not tyranny when it's done for our own good!
That's actually other people exercising their free speech to point out you're a bunch of malicious weirdos telling bald-faced lies. Because there are more of them than you, the democratically elected government tends to reflect that.
The Federal Government censoring you is really people exercising their free speech!
Guess it stops being a democracy when it isn't people removing books from libraries.
Or tearing down statues of Whites!
It's what the taxpayers want.
Same with the child porn in libraries, you bootlicking dunce.
You definitely want people who think Maurice Sendak does child porn dictating what books should be removed from lbraries. At least no-one could ever argue that the statues *weren't* of people who fought for slavery.
Some of these books have graphic pictures of little kids sucking each others dicks.
But you be you.
Maurice Sendak? What a lying weirdo you are.
"Some " I guess is a concept that the CCP doesn't allow in Mandarin.
What, the fart books? No-one ever taught you the difference between 'vulgar' and 'obscene?'
Ed, worrying about fascism while advocating for mass murder at the border.
Truly an incredible lack of introspection to be even slightly internally consistent.
Authorizing the use of deadly force is not mass murder. Or do you think that it would be "mass murder" for Brinks drivers to use their guns to prevent people from stealing their cash?
"Mass murder" would be Napalm strikes along the border....
This is so stupid it has to be an April Fool.
Holmes"
"Falsely shout 'fire' in a crowded theater."
Now part of history.
Much to the benefit of MAGA nation.
I gather there's an analogy being made, but not seeing one.
He's trying to say that disagreeing with speech from the Administrative State is akin to shouting fire in a crowded theater.
I quite like the explicit assumption - assertion, even - that there is no way of establishing whether something is a crisis or an emergency and whether someone is telling knowing falsehoods that could put lives at risk.
When Fauci came out on TV and told people not to wear masks, what was he doing?
Managing a crisis. Which you lot are clearly incapable of doing. You're literally less competent than the CDC. Congrats.
So he can lie and put people's lives at risk during a crisis because he's "managing" it?
He can give the advice necessary for the time he gives it in a rapidly changing situation with a lot of moving pieces. No wonder it makes your head hurt.
You are saying that it is OK for the government to lie?
I'm saying it wasn't ok for him to lie but at this point we all know why he did and it's no use pretending otherwise or to show respect to people who use it to spin lies of their own.
When he lied about masks he was saving lives! When others do it, they are murdering people!
Have you ever met a federal boot you didn't lick?
When he 'lied' about masks he was managing supply difficulties. He could have and should have told the truth, but that's what he was doing. At least he didn't keep doubling down, unlike some people.
Wasn't that nice of this unelected top 1% elite bureaucrat to decide who lives or dies in America!
Nige: Now you're putting lie in quotes -- did he lie or not?
Since you believe that masks save lives, did this lie cost lives?
BCD - Yeah, qualified professionals get appointed by elected officials, y’know, rather than unqualified major donors or guys bumped into on the golf course.
DWB – I think it was kind of a grey area, because we still weren’t sure about transmission, but at the same time it was pretty obvious that masks were a good idea.
Given that it’s been used by lying propagandists to bolster claims that using masks to stop an airborne virus is fascist, sadly, yes, probably.
Nige: Then Fauci lied, people died and he needs to be in prison.
At least this shows you agree that masks work.
Can everyone else who lied about the pandemic go to jail too? You wanna round up all the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers? How many did they kill?
Nige: I know they largely don't, but since you do...
You want the government involved in almost everything, yet are more than happy to let the man get away with causing the deaths of innocent people. Multiple governors put the sick in nursing homes around the most vulnerable!
And you wonder why people do not trust progressives and their government?
Why BCD and DWB (I know that acronym BTW), I'd almost swear you two were advocating for the government to stay out of people's personal affairs and decisions. Now do Florida!
Hobie: Show me where Florida is violating rights and I will
'I know they largely don’t'
Good luck putting him in jail, then.
‘And you wonder why people do not trust progressives and their government?’
I think they trust them to the extent they do because conservatives claimed covid wasn’t real, masks don’t work, vaccines are poison, requiring vaccines in hospitals is the Holocaust and are screaming for the jailing of public officials for doing their jobs.
DWB: I agree with Nige that Fauci should not have lied.
You ask: "Since you believe that masks save lives, did this lie cost lives?"
Probably not. Not because masks don't work, but because they do. His intent, as Nige noted, was to preserve limited supply for health care workers, because that's where the provided the most benefit, i.e., saved the most lives. So his lie likely saved lies by increasing the supply for the most vulnerable and those working with the most vulnerable.
But it was a lie and he shouldn't have said it.
Now go try to hang someone who lied about the pandemic in a way that only killed people. Any anti-vaxxer will do.
"So his lie likely saved lies by increasing the supply for the most vulnerable and those working with the most vulnerable."
Most actions have costs and benefits. My guess is that the government could have secured almost all the supply by calling up the CEO's of CVS, Home Depot, ..., and said 'Hi, we want to buy your entire inventory of masks. If you sell them retail instead of to us we will publicly shame you'. IMHO that would have secured 99% of the supply at zero cost in credibility.
The obviously false statement that they didn't work unless you were a nurse was step 1 in eroding the public trust. There is an old adage: 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me'. Like it or not, that's how people work. From that point on the argument 'the government says X and I can trust them because they tell the truth' lost its effectiveness.
On one hand, we have some number of people who were standing there in the hardware store aisle looking at the N95 masks (in the few days before they all got shipped to the government) and thinking 'well, I was going to buy one of these, but the CDC says they only work for nurses and docs, so I'll pass'. How many masks do you think stayed on the shelf because of that (as opposed to '...but I'll buy one anyway just in case they help')?
Now think about how many people refused to get vaccinated or isolate, etc, etc.
A fair point regarding the general downstream effects of a government official being dishonest even for "good reasons." Which, again, is why I said it was wrong of him to do it.
I anticipate that the number of people who refused to get a vaccine because Fauci said there was no need for the general public to use N95 masks is vanishingly small. People who were anti-vaccine were mostly anti-vaccine before Covid and/or would not have believed any official in a Democratic administration anyway.
But the number is probably non-zero, so, yes, that has to be included in the calculus before any final determination regarding whether Fauci's lie cost lives or didn't. I doubt it changes the result, though.
"I anticipate that the number of people who refused to get a vaccine because Fauci said there was no need for the general public to use N95 masks is vanishingly small. People who were anti-vaccine were mostly anti-vaccine before Covid and/or would not have believed any official in a Democratic administration anyway."
I'm going to disagree, based on the mask/vaccine skeptics I know personally. That's far from a definitive answer, of course, we both have our hunches.
Thanks, BTW, for an expletive free discussion, even if we disagree.
'based on the mask/vaccine skeptics I know personally.'
Mask skeptics LOVE Fauci's dishonesty because they use it to spread the lie that masks don't work, which alomst certainly cost more lives than Fauci did. If a perfectly explicable, if not excusable, dishonesty caused them to question vaccines, then it was at worst a straw on a camel's back.
I’m going to disagree, based on the mask/vaccine skeptics I know personally.
That’s interesting, because my speculation is based on the mask/vaccine skeptics I know personally. All of them were either skeptical of masks and vaccines before Fauci said anything or there is no indication in their statements of reasons or past politics/ideology/scientific or medical beliefs to suggest Fauci lying about whether masks worked would have made any difference to their ultimate views on either masks or vaccines.
In other words, what you seem to be saying is that you know people who you think would have worn masks or would have gotten the covid vaccine but for Fauci’s lie about N95 masks not being useful for the general public. I’m surprised, but I can’t say it’s entirely implausible. And definitely different from my experience. You can never know with certainty what another person (or even you) would have done in another circumstance, but I’m as sure as a person can reasonably get that Fauci’s statements about N95 make had no effect on anyone I personally know who chose not to wear masks (or was against wearing them and only complied because necessary) or who chose not to get the vaccine.
And thank you as well for a civil conversation. It is possible!
Movie film (if even used) is no longer made of explosive nitrocellulose (aka "guncotton") and theaters have sprinkler systems.
They... they prohibited supermarkets from selling food for three days in a row? For crying out loud, the guy supposedly spouting knowing falsehoods was halfway to being right!
That was an example chosen by the plaintiffs to show that what the government claims is false is not necessarily false.
The court reasoned that the proper remedy was generally for the government to rebut false rumors, not to criminalize them
The decision is unwise. The basis of the unwisdom is the court’s too-narrow focus on facts of a case which do not adequately present either the limitations which government may suffer, or the existential character of the issues at stake during extreme emergencies—which are the only kind of emergencies the law should be tailored to govern.
As red state responses to the Covid emergency illustrate, false assertions during public emergencies cannot be presumed rebuttable. The emergency itself infuses an increment of distrust into public discourse. Sometimes, attempts to manage an emergency engender politically-motivated counter-advocacy, including hoaxes and lies, in attempts to defeat opportunistically a government perceived to be struggling. Sometimes emergencies occasion extraordinary opportunities for private gain, at public expense, which may be served by lies, and perpetuated by confusion.
Also, emergencies by their nature can degrade the efficiency of government response, and thus disproportionately empower action by individuals who disregard public needs—including unwise and unpopular actions. That weakens government power to act—perhaps when maximum government efficiency may be indispensable to stave off existential consequences.
Far more than 99% of the time, the notion is appropriate that the remedy for bad speech is more speech. In the tiny percentage of cases where that remedy is not useful, misguided insistence on that rule may prove catastrophic. So it becomes doubly important to stay mindful that such rare cases can arise, and when they do, must be governed by standards capable to match likely-impaired government capabilities to rare and especially dangerous circumstances.
A wiser legal approach would be to better define what conditions constitute such emergencies, and then to leave government reliant on politics, not the courts, to manage them. In such cases, a general rule for the judiciary would be, “This emergency must be managed by the administration or the courts, and it cannot be the courts.”
“In the tiny percentage of cases where that remedy is not useful, misguided insistence on that rule may prove catastrophic.”
The problem is that according to the government, the Reichstag Fire Decree and Korematsu[1] are exactly the kind of emergencies where the government needs extraordinary powers.
[1]not that having judicial review of the Japanese internment accomplished much – the court blew that call badly – but at least such review wasn’t beyond the pale merely because the executive branch said so.
Well let me ask you, what false Red state assertions cost more lives than Blue states sustained.
I know it was claimed Kemp in Georgia, and DeSantis in Florida, and Ducey in Arizona were going to have bodies stacked in the streets, but they did at least as well as NY, NJ, and CA.
New York City had thousands of bodies stacked in the streets—albeit tastefully concealed in refrigerated trailers. The red states you named did as well as they did because they were lucky. They did not get hit as hard in the first wave, before better treatments were in place. To NY, NJ, and CA on the hard-hit list, you could add MA, CT, and RI, by the way, which were also hit hard and early, and thus endured longer exposure to the worst of the pandemic than the balance of the nation. Thus, red states which might in retrospect seem to have fared no worse than those, got that status by the luck of a lesser challenge.
Kazinski, I think the Covid pandemic is a borderline case—and thus the wrong example—to use as a guide to what the law should be on emergencies. For the smaller demographic of people older than 65 years, before vaccinations became available, it was a truly existential crisis. Note, however, that even that turned out to deliver a whopper of an economic crisis to everyone. I will not listen to anyone so depraved they want to tell me the economic crisis could have been avoided if the elderly did not get protected.
To create a hypothetical model medical emergency on which to ground sensible emergency law, just take the Covid Northeastern experience for the elderly, and apply that nationwide, simultaneously, to all demographics. The law must leave latitude to cope with at least that. For all we know, something much worse than that will happen—a pandemic so severe that it threatens to kill a substantial fraction of everyone.
If you disagree, please explain in detail what advantages, either for practical survival, or for liberty, you think tolerance of deliberate falsehoods can bring to such a crisis.
It was such an existential crisis for the elderly that Democrat governors shipped COVID patients to nursing homes.
At the start of the pandemic? When countries all over the world were struggling to catch up with their lack of preparedness with the same disastrous results? And you;re claiming it was just Dem jurisdictions? While twits like you were telling us it wasn't real?
In the beginning of the pandemic it was Democrats telling us it wasn't real. This is all on video.
The Democrat governors sent the COVID patients to the nursing homes during the height of the pandemic.
Of course you don't know this.
Trump's a Democrat?
All sorts of dumb things were and continue to be done in the course of this pandemic. A lot of it because the pandemic preparedness group was disbanded.
Prove it.
You know how if you prepare for something, you handle it better? That.
What you don’t know because you’re an ignorant bootlicker was that the Federal Government has a dozen of these organizations and that move was simply a reorg and not a dismantling of capabilities.
But since you only know what the State tells you and they never told you this, you had no clue and you literally thought out of the entire Federal Government there was zero pandemic capabilities because that one office was reorganized.
Everyone who trots out that trope outs themselves as a bootlicking moron.
Yeah, that's the pro-Trump spin. Mass murder, really, that act.
"they were lucky"
Fortune favors the prepared. And the brave and the ones with a lick of sense. All of which is why NY and NJ got hit so hard.
Yes, because they were hit first.
The only false assertions came from you plandemic mongers.
Given the risks of interfering with speech and the tendency of governments to increase their power by calling things emergencies, I see your point about narrowing the scope of anti-hoax laws.
I would put forth that the Enlightenment idea of truth prevailing in the marketplace of ideas has been disproven. In a world where lies are developed by trained psywar professionals, truth is outclassed in combat. Pick your own example, but there are many today. Since general censorship makes things worse I don't have a solution.
You want to leave it to the marketplace of ideas to decide whether a pandemic is real? An earthquake? A tidal wave? A tornado warning? You want some sort of competition involved in the real-time promulgation of vital information?
Yes.
You literally have no idea how to handle disasters, ecept by pretending they're not real, do you?
Anything that has national implications must be open to vigorous open debate.
Currentsitguy, do you suppose a debate sullied by myriad deliberate falsehoods is either vigorous or open?
By the way, why so solicitous to support lying during an emergency? Do you maybe think it important that folks who count themselves oppressed by the truth should remain at liberty to resist that oppression with lies?
I think obvious falsehoods are easily countered, but so long as authorities rule by decree and are perceived as stifling dissent and debate they just lose credibility, respect, and authority.
Plenty of obvious anti-vaxx crap flourished during the pandemic, no amount of countering it made a dent. I reject your assumptions.
You are always going to have a certain percentage you’ll never win over. That is not an excuse to silence debate.
Some day there is going to be an actual real crisis and trust is going to be necessary.
Think of the Great Barrington Declaration for example. That was not penned by a bunch of quacks and lunatics, yet it was suppressed with no debate.
I know I and tens of millions of others will never trust the government again on any subject.
"Think of the Great Barrington Declaration for example. That was not penned by a bunch of quacks and lunatics, yet it was suppressed with no debate."
I'm not sure what you're talking about. There's a long wikipedia article describing in detail the public debate about the Great Barrington Declaration, including the apparent embrace of it by the Trump administration or at least senior members of his administration. The fact that many leading health experts, policy experts, and the Volokh Conspiracy's own Tyler Cowen thought the declaration was "dangerous and misguided" does not mean it was suppressed. In fact, that we have quotes from all these people on it definitely shows that it was debated. The pro-Great Barrington side just lost.
I set aside whether it was "suppressed", because I don't know what you mean. I see reports that maybe Google altered its search engine results for it, but private actors do what they do. I see nothing indicating government suppression which is what really counts. (And, again, there was vigorous debate, though very lopsided because most people thought it was a dumb and dangerous idea, including libertarians like Tyler Cowen.)
'That is not an excuse to silence debate.'
It's not a reason to prolong it, either
'I know I and tens of millions of others will never trust the government again on any subject.'
And I and billions of others will never trust anyone who supported the Barrington Declaraton or who claim debate on it was suppressed.
"Some day there is going to be an actual real crisis and trust is going to be necessary."
Exactly.
An autocracy can perhaps get away with suppressing debate for a while, but in a democracy the people are the decision makers. You either convince them you are doing the right things or you get voted out of office. The notion that the people are two dumb to run the country and so must have a curated version of truth fed to them is fundamentally incompatible with, and won't work in, a democracy.
If you are in the government, convincing the people is a matter of convincing your boss. It's not smart to get caught trying to manipulate your boss.
Absaroka, unless you suppose that a majority in a democracy favor deliberate falsehoods to obstruct government in the midst of a deadly emergency, your critique is incoherent. We are talking about lies, not controversies.
"We are talking about lies, not controversies."
How do you plan to decide what is and isn't a lie? What happens to someone who lies? When the surgeon general says masks only work for health care workers, does he go to jail, or the people who disagree with him?
You debate and examine the procedures and measures put in place BEFORE the disasters, yes, but when the tornado siren’s wailing is not the time for a quick round-table exchange of views or points of order about the evacuation procedures.
Debate facts while the ship sinks? At least you're honest BCD
Why do trust your life, unskeptically, to people who have demonstrated themselves to be incompetent, corrupt, and unaccountable?
I trust my own life to myself. To do that I need to hear everything I can to make informed decisions such as from Dems, Rs, drag queens, Disney, Fox, doctors, lunatics etc. Any attempt by any government to impede speech is a non-starter for me.
Hobie, that raises a question. I regard a deliberate lie as an attempt to impede speech. Maybe you don't usually think of it that way. Suppose, however, that your life depended on getting an accurate answer to a question—which of these medicines is effective, and which are harmful—for instance. Do you really want to encourage a chorus of 10 responses, 9 of which will come from liars? If a government initiated means could be found to change that, and deliver to you only responses which other people not in government believed to the best of their ability to be truthful, would you think of that as a disadvantage?
"Do you really want to encourage a chorus of 10 responses, 9 of which will come from liars? "
The question is who decides what is and is not a lie.
"If a government initiated means could be found to change that, and deliver to you only responses which other people not in government believed to the best of their ability to be truthful, would you think of that as a disadvantage?"
Very much so. History is full of examples where almost everyone believes something that is utter nonsense. Not to mention evil governments that try and suppress the truth. That someone who has a history degree is unaware of this boggles the mind.
The question is who decides what is and is not a lie.
During a deadly emergency, it can’t be the liar, and only the liar. That might work when the stakes are lower, but not when the existence of government itself is in question.
If you want to cite history as your source, please get to work to learn what history tells you about existential crises, and what happens to public order, and thus capacity to govern, when they happen. You will not find examples where de facto anarchy improved anything, except maybe the fortunes of a few opportunists of the sort history has customarily counted as criminals.
Also, you evaded my first question.
"but not when the existence of government itself is in question. "
For example, right after the Reichstag fire.
Don't believe right-wing fascists on the make, is always a good rule of thumb.
Steven, yes, I would consider that a disadvantage. I'm surprised you would say such a thing. I do not want information curated by the government...which I believe you are implying. I'm perfectly capable of knowing when someone is lying to me
Luckily for you, hobie, national existential emergencies in this nation are few and far between. The last one this nation experienced was the Civil War. That means that to try to construct an effective legal regime to cope with such an occurrence will challenge the imagination of everyone now alive.
Given that, it is understandable that you believe nonsense about what happens in such an emergency, and more nonsense about what your own capabilities would be following events which had cut you off from every reliable source of information.
In those circumstances, nobody can expect to do what you say you are, "perfectly capable," to do. Try to engage your imagination about the magnitudes and characteristics of crises which will someday almost certainly occur.
It's interesting to juxtapose this decision with the election disinformation conviction.
So someone could see a government warning about thunderstorms in the coastal mountains and flash flood warnings, and then warn people about a tsunami and tell them to head for high ground, but can't tell voters that they can text in their vote.
Seems a little off to me.
I saw in the voter suppression case that thousands did text to the number that supposedly would record their vote. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out what percentage of those people failed to cast a real ballot. Was it statistically different from the general population? Was it anyone?
"It’s interesting to juxtapose this decision with the election disinformation conviction.
So someone could see a government warning about thunderstorms in the coastal mountains and flash flood warnings, and then warn people about a tsunami and tell them to head for high ground, but can’t tell voters that they can text in their vote.
Seems a little off to me."
It's called "political bias" and you're full of it. The two things you described are not in any way comparable - which was probably deliberate on your part.
You've got brand new technology capable of generating ever-more convincing fakery, you've got people like the cold-blooded edgelord sociopaths in 4chan who cheer on mass shootings and regularly flood the internet with disinformation during and after mass shootings and terrorist attacks and disasters. There's going to need to be some sort of mechanism to protect people from what one could do with the other, or punish if they can't be stopped. I'm not sure freedom of speech as a concept is going to mean much if its proponents go all-out to protect people who have the capacity to get other people killed if their fling-shit-at-the-walls-in-a-crisis habits happen to stick, even just once or twice.
So the states and the feds should be able to punish denying the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church?
Or that Sunni Islam is the real Islam?
I'd need a plausible scenarios where either would result in interfering with saving lives during an emergency, first, tbh.
Good. Now the "making false statements" statute in the federal criminal code should go next.
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3929140-federal-judge-blocks-tennessee-law-restricting-drag-shows/
So while New York's blatantly unconstitutional gun law is allowed to remain in effect for years while the issue "percolates," these get stayed immediately, including by Trump judges. There are no liberal judges or conservative judges. There are statist judges, and that includes nearly all of them.
Blocking a law restricting speech is literally the opposite of statist.
It's statist in that the people voted to decide what books their tax money should pay for. Do people have a right to take Mein Kampf out from the library? If not, why not?
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. The law was about drag shows, not books.
And your sentence leading into your questions makes no logical or grammatical sense.
Do people have a right to take Mein Kampf out from the library? If not, why not? By take out, do you mean remove it from the collection or take it out. If you mean, as presumably you do, remove it from the collection, it depends on who the person is and which library. But you knew that. School boards, for example, generally decide what goes in the school library. Public libraries have their own metric.
Does the most sensitive person in a state get to remove any book they want from a library's collection? Only in Florida. So far.
Ah yes, being able to twerk in front of a six-year-old is “freedom of speech”! I’m sure the ACLU jumped on that one with both feet! Though I’m guessing it stayed out of the New York gun litigation for some reason. Some individual liberties are just more important!
Oooh, is that the incident that took place in college? With a college student? Everybody KNOWS why you guys oppose anything that undermines your ability to propagate lies and disinformation in any and every situation, Ed.
WTF are you blathering about?
Ask Ed.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/01/us/texas-book-ban-removed-library-replaced-judge/index.html
What do you know? Judge Pitman, a degenerate faggot appointed by the semi-retarded ape who squatted in the White House from 2008-2016, abrogated his duty to the Constitution.
Two things you can rely on:
1) Bigotry -- gay-bashing, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, misogyny, immigrant-hating, etc. -- at the Volokh Conspiracy.
2) Silence from the Volokh Conspirators concerning the bigotry that saturates their blog and the disaffected, bigoted, right-wing audience they have carefully cultivated.
What if you claim election dates changed due to the storm?
Is it a deliberate lie with a predictable effect to deny votes to people who believe it, made by someone who has said denying people votes is what he intends?
Of course eliminating emergency decrees will also address this issue.
Seems in conflict with the Mackey conviction recently in the EDNY.
It is potentially distinguishable based on the required criminal intent. The Puerto Rico law punishes intentional false statements. The federal law punishes intentional interference with an election.
So if somebody shouts “fire” in a crowded theatre, government’s remedy is simply more speech, to argue with the people trampling for the exits. And the remedy for people trampled to death is again to talk about it. Talking about it can be relied on to bring them back to life.
The dynamics of free speech, counter-speech, and refutation can effectively overcome lies.
That is high-sounding free-speech ideology, not a statement of fact. There are commonplace circumstances in which it is never true. Think of all the times you have heard, even after a court has adjudicated defamation, "Where do I go to get my reputation back?"
Some kinds of damage inflicted by publicity can only be prevented by not publishing in the first place; they cannot be corrected by refutation after the fact. That is one of the principal harms Section 230 inflicted, when it undermined the practice of private editing prior to publication.
Free speech utopians should at least try to be forthright, and acknowledge that their ideal of unlimited expressive liberty comes with a trade-off. It is not possible to cast aside every constraint on publication, except at the expense of competing values which are also worthy of protection.
To say that is not to call for any change, let alone any diminution, in long-standing norms governing expressive freedom. Private editing prior to publication supplied for centuries the legal context in which the law of expressive freedom was created.
In cases when expressive constraint is required, wiser policy would focus narrowly on which parties are empowered to apply it. The aim should be two-fold, first, to deny that dangerous power to government, and second, to diffuse it in its application among myriad practitioners, who will inevitably apply that power variously and inconsistently according to their own lights. Expressive constraint is a power most beneficial when diffused and inconsistent, and dangerous when concentrated and consistent.
That is how private editing worked for centuries. The loss of private editing prior to publication has inflicted a heavy cost on the public life of the nation.
Speaking more generally, courts are mistaken to cite mere ideology, or, as they sometimes do, to coin ideology, and then rely on their own utterances as if they were facts supporting a decision. For instance, this is how the Citizens United majority, struggling to make a dangerous decision look benign, tried to clean up its mess:
The appearance of influence or access, furthermore, will not cause the electorate to lose faith in our democracy.
What?! That shocker was offered as fact, by the Court. Almost nobody can be expected to believe it. Social science repeatedly weighs that very supposition, and aways finds public opinion heavily on the opposite side. So, probably conscious of strain inflicted by its heavy lift, the Court went on:
By definition, an independent expenditure is political speech presented to the electorate that is not coordinated with a candidate . . . The fact that a corporation, or any other speaker, is willing to spend money to try to persuade voters presupposes that the people have the ultimate influence over elected officials. This is inconsistent with any suggestion that the electorate will refuse “‘to take part in democratic governance’” because of additional political speech made by a corporation or any other speaker.
Note especially the misdirection of, "The fact that a corporation, or any other speaker, is willing to spend money to try to persuade voters presupposes that the people have the ultimate influence over elected officials." That sophistry presupposes nothing of the kind. There is sleight of hand in it, when the Court substitutes, "ultimate influence," for another kind which any sensible person would prefer to have instead, "primary influence." Which is to say, the kind of influence sought by the corporate donors the Court was striving purposefully to protect.
Any skeptics should try this counter-supposition: What would happen to the people's, "ultimate influence over elected officials," if such corporate donations disappeared? Get the corporate donors' primary influence out of the way, and the people's power of ultimate influence would enormously increase, and everyone knows it.
Lying about how corporate money works to buy policy in Congress cannot deliver any fact in support of free speech ideology. To think otherwise is foolishness.
Expressive freedom is among the highest and most valuable rights our society prizes. An impulse to cherish it is indispensable to our society. A great deal can be sacrificed, and ought to be sacrificed, to safeguard and protect expressive freedom.
But one thing which cannot be sacrificed in that effort is objective insight into how expressive freedom works. That is not an assertion of principle, it is a statement of fact. You cannot legitimately call yourself a protector of expressive freedom, while espousing uncritical ideology about how it works. If ordinary citizens do that, they get their advocacy wrong. If the Supreme Court does that, it gets its decisions wrong.
As technical advance continues to add novel force multipliers to expressive possibilities, the need for widespread analytical insight into how expressive freedom actually works will become proportionately more critical. Ideological nostrums are the opposite of analytical insight.