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Law Restricting Pharmacist Speech About Ivermectin and Hydroxycholoroquine Likely Violates the First Amendment
A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction against the enforcement of the law.
From yesterday's opinion by Judge Greg Kays (W.D. Mo.) in Stock v. Gray:
This lawsuit arises from the State of Missouri enacting a law forbidding pharmacists from contacting a prescribing doctor or patient "to dispute the efficacy of ivermectin tablets or hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets for human use" unless the doctor or patient asks the pharmacist about these drugs' efficacy first. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 338.055.7 (2022) (emphasis added). Under the law, a pharmacist who violates the statute—for example, by on her own initiative alerting a doctor or patient that the FDA has not approved either drug to treat a particular disease—may face disciplinary action, including the potential loss of her license. On the other hand, a pharmacist who on her own initiative contacts a doctor or patient to tout the efficacy of either drug for a purpose the FDA has not approved faces no such sanction….
Holding the law unconstitutionally restricts Plaintiff and other pharmacists' speech on the basis of their viewpoint [plaintiff's motion for a preliminary injunction] is GRANTED….
Plaintiff is likely to succeed on the merits because the second sentence of § 338.055.7 infringes the free speech rights of Plaintiff and other Missouri-licensed pharmacists by threatening to impose liability based on the viewpoint of their speech. The statute prohibits pharmacists from initiating contact to express a particular view, namely, a view disputing the efficacy of the drugs. It does not prohibit pharmacists from initiating contact to tout, endorse, or acclaim the drugs, thus it is taking sides in a politically charged debate about the drugs efficacy. This is viewpoint discrimination, which is fatal to the statute's constitutionality.
Defendants' arguments that the statute does not engage in viewpoint discrimination is thoroughly unpersuasive. Defendants suggest … the statute is not viewpoint discrimination because it regulates conduct, not speech. This argument is unavailing because the statute does not prohibit initiating contact with patients or doctors (a regulation of conduct). Nor does it prohibit initiating contact with patients or doctors to speak on any matter at all (a content-neutral regulation of speech). Nor does it prohibit initiating contact with patients or doctors to talk about a particular subject matter, such as any discussion of either drug (a content-based regulation of speech). Rather, the provision bans initiating contact only if the contact is to express the viewpoint that the drugs are not effective for human use. Hence, it is viewpoint discrimination.
Defendants' other claim—that the statute's ban on contacting a patient to "dispute the efficacy" of the drugs is not a ban on a viewpoint doubting effectiveness, but rather a ban on pharmacists engaging in arguments about the effectiveness of these drugs generally—is even less persuasive. Defendants argue "[d]isputing the efficacy of these drugs can involve either promoting or discouraging use of these drugs." Thus, according to Defendants, "the statute says pharmacists cannot initiate an argument with patients and physicians."
As a threshold matter, this argument defies common sense. A pharmacist calls a patient or prescribing doctor to alert them to a potential problem with a prescription. For example, a pharmacist may call the prescribing doctor to alert him that a widely used drug is no longer recommended because of new information about side effects, or he may call a patient to warn about a potential drug interaction. A pharmacist does not call to applaud a doctor for prescribing a drug or congratulate a patient for taking one. This being the case, Defendants' claim that the legislature has enacted a law barring a pharmacist from calling a doctor or patient to tout a drug is hard to swallow.
More importantly, Defendants' argument is inconsistent with the plain meaning of the statute…. The relevant part of the statute at issue here reads: "A pharmacist shall not contact the prescribing physician or the patient to dispute the efficacy of ivermectin tablets or hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets for human use unless the physician or patient inquires of the pharmacist about the efficacy of ivermectin tablets or hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets." The plain and ordinary meaning of this sentence is that a pharmacist cannot initiate contact with a doctor or patient to tell them that ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine does not work in humans unless the doctor or patient first asks the pharmacist whether it works. This interpretation is confirmed by a common definition of "dispute," which is "to question the truth or validity of; doubt." It also dovetails with the purpose of the prior sentence (which the legislature enacted at the same time) which prohibits the Board from taking any action against a pharmacist who dispenses ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine. Finally, this reading is consistent with the legislature's apparent purpose in enacting § 338.055.7 as a whole: to insulate ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine from criticism.
Thus, the Court concludes "to dispute the efficacy" means to question the validity of, or doubt, the drugs' effectiveness. And because the statute only prohibits criticizing the efficacy of the drugs, it engages in viewpoint restriction.
Since the statute engages in viewpoint discrimination, that is the end of the matter.6 Iancu v. Brunetti (2019) (holding the Lanham Act's bar on the registration of "immoral" or "scandalous" trademarks discriminates on the basis of viewpoint and so violates the First Amendment, noting "[t]he Court's finding of viewpoint bias end[s] the matter."). "The government may not discriminate against speech based on the ideas or opinions it conveys." "Discrimination against speech because of its message is presumed to be unconstitutional." Rosenberger v. Rector & Visitors of Univ. of Va. (1995). Government restrictions "based on viewpoint are prohibited." Minn. Voters All. v. Mansky (2018). {The Court recognizes both parties have raised additional First Amendment arguments, but the Court need not consider them because its holding that the statute engages in viewpoint discrimination is dispositive.}
Congratulations to Adam E. Schulman (Hamilton Lincoln Law Institute) and local counsel Jonathan R. Whitehead, who represent plaintiff. Here's what I wrote about the law when it was enacted; this seems to me consistent with the court's opinion, though the court came to the result through a different path:
Seems to me like [the law is] an unconstitutional speech restriction. To be sure, the government may restrict professional-client speech in some situations where it can't restrict it in other contexts. (Consider the fact that some speaking professions, such as psychotherapy, may require a license in the first place, or that giving negligent professional opinions or predictions to a client may be malpractice even if a newspaper columnist or blogger can't be sued for such speech.) Nonetheless, courts have recognized that professional-client speech is indeed entitled to considerable constitutional protection, see, e.g., Wollschlaeger v. Governor (11th Cir. 2017) (en banc). To quote the Supreme Court's opinion in NIFLA v. Becerra (2018),
The dangers associated with content-based regulations of speech are also present in the context of professional speech. As with other kinds of speech, regulating the content of professionals' speech "pose[s] the inherent risk that the Government seeks not to advance a legitimate regulatory goal, but to suppress unpopular ideas or information."
Take medicine, for example. "Doctors help patients make deeply personal decisions, and their candor is crucial." Throughout history, governments have "manipulat[ed] the content of doctor-patient discourse" to increase state power and suppress minorities:
"For example, during the Cultural Revolution, Chinese physicians were dispatched to the countryside to convince peasants to use contraception. In the 1930s, the Soviet government expedited completion of a construction project on the Siberian railroad by ordering doctors to both reject requests for medical leave from work and conceal this government order from their patients. In Nazi Germany, the Third Reich systematically violated the separation between state ideology and medical discourse. German physicians were taught that they owed a higher duty to the 'health of the Volk' than to the health of individual patients. Recently, Nicolae Ceausescu's strategy to increase the Romanian birth rate included prohibitions against giving advice to patients about the use of birth control devices and disseminating information about the use of condoms as a means of preventing the transmission of AIDS." [Paula] Berg, Toward a First Amendment Theory of Doctor-Patient Discourse and the Right To Receive Unbiased Medical Advice, 74 B.U.L. Rev. 201 (1994).
Further, when the government polices the content of professional speech, it can fail to "'preserve an uninhibited marketplace of ideas in which truth will ultimately prevail.'" Professionals might have a host of good-faith disagreements, both with each other and with the government, on many topics in their respective fields. Doctors and nurses might disagree about the ethics of assisted suicide or the benefits of medical marijuana; lawyers and marriage counselors might disagree about the prudence of prenuptial agreements or the wisdom of divorce; bankers and accountants might disagree about the amount of money that should be devoted to savings or the benefits of tax reform. "[T]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," and the people lose when the government is the one deciding which ideas should prevail.
Seems to me to fully apply to the ban on pharmacist speech here. A state legislature may of course ban pharmacists' from refusing to dispense prescribed drugs. But it may not ban pharmacists from merely speaking about such drugs by disputing their efficacy (at least unless the ban is limited to opinions that would qualify as incompetent medical advice, and nothing in the statute so limits the ban).
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A constitutional right to literally sell snake oil, that's definitely on-brand for the US in the 21st century.
You seem to have misunderstood the law. The plaintiffs here want to be able to say "ivermectin/HCQ are snake oil and are not going to help a Covid patient".
You're right, I stand corrected. But does that matter for the constitutional principle?
It's about an entirely different constitutional principle than you posited, so I would say yes.
This law was bad because it muzzled pharmacists from conveying good-faith information to the doctors and patients involved in medication that the pharmacists were asked to dispense. The doctors and patients are free to ignore the pharmacist, and seek another in the future if they think the pharmacist should have kept their mouth shut, but the government should not use its authority to silence the pharmacist about good-faith, scientifically defensible, transaction-related beliefs.
Well, that was exactly my question. Is "scientifically defensible" part of the court's rationale here?
I think it has to be. "Practicing medicine" isn't just a question of licensure. It's also a regulated profession in which certain speech is prohibited, i.e. treating patients with actual snake oil isn't proper medicine and will get you defrocked. So sub rasa here is the notion that a pharmacist doing a pharmacist's job within the scope of his/her profession cannot be otherwise silenced to satisfy the legislature's view of the science. That' different from saying a pharmacist cannot tell patients/customers that aspirin will cure their cancer.
So 1A only applies to certain things? The literal snake oil salesman has no right to speak to the false benefits of his snake oil?
Not if the salesman is "practicing medicine." Or selling a publicly traded security. Or asking the government to pay for a pallet of snake oil (False Claims Act). Or...
The 1A has never in history been, and is not now, interpreted to forbid laws against fraud.
You've gotten this completely wrong, in a knee-jerk fashion. First, the case is purely about speech, not the right to "sell" anything. Second, it's the exact opposite political valence: this law forbids pharmacists from cautioning against snake oil.
Yes, I'd already withdrawn my comment to the extent that I'd misread what the Missouri legislature had done. (In my defense, how was I supposed to know that they'd come up with a pro-snake oil law?)
Missouri.
A similar anti-snake oil law that proscribed disputing the effectiveness of vaccines would also be unconstitutional.
That was my point. Would it be? Reallynotbob above suggests that it wouldn't be/might not be, and I'm not sure.
Disputing the effectiveness of a vaccine is not the same as advising a person that aspirin will cure cancer.
We expect Trump to push quack cures that will kill people, but it is amazing that a majority of the Missouri legislature would do so, many of them no doubt knowing better but voting for the legislation for political benefits. Their violation of the Constitution is icing on the cake. It's too bad that they cannot be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license as well as for any deaths they cause the gullible people who take their quack cures instead of real medicine.
To be fair, ivermectin will actually de-worm you...
This is going yo be heretical, but it probably works better than the mRNA vaccines right now. The main study claiming that Ivermectin doesn’t work was designed to fail - it was tested on people in the hospital who already had COVID-19. That’s not where it is claimed to work best - which is as a prophylactic. The virus supposedly has a hard time getting a foot hold in your body if you have a week or so of daily Ivermectin in you, esp combined with a couple other things like Vitamin C.
The mRNA vaccines, on the other hand, since Omicron pushed out Delta, in 12/21, apparently have done more harm than good. If someone keeps getting the virus, over and over again, it is fairly likely that they are vaxed and boosted. It appears that after the first jab (where the immune system was taught that the Wuhan variant spike proteins were pathogens), subsequent jabs just have the immune system generating massive amounts of antibodies to fight the Wuhan spike proteins produced by the mRNA. This helped up through Delta, that had very similar spike proteins. But unsurprisingly, the virus mutated around the vaccines, by changing its spike proteins, and all of those Wuhan spike protein antibodies being produced by the mRNA don’t target any parts of the Omicron or later variants. It’s called “vaccine mismatch”. The bivalent vaccines don’t help much, because most of the antibodies generated are still for the no longer relevant Wuhan spike proteins.
Every person I know who was properly taking Ivermectin as a prophylaxis, and hadn’t taken the mRNA vaccines, easily survived getting the virus. Yes, sometimes they had to take the horse paste, which tastes vile, when pharmacists in their community were either prevented from, or chose not to fill prescriptions for the human version of the medicine. Any time you hear Ivermectin called a “horse dewormer”, you know that you are dealing with propaganda - it’s primary use in humans is to fight parasites, like malaria, and many millions around the world safely take it every day for just that purpose. Many times safer than the mRNA vaccines, that likely killed several of my friends over the last year, and permanently damaged several others. But Ivermectin is an old drug, long off patent. No money was going to be made from it. Billions were made off the mRNA vaccines. As a good friend is fond of saying: “follow the money”.
Bruce Hayden : “Many times safer than the mRNA vaccines, that likely killed several of my friends over the last year, and permanently damaged several others”
I’m just guessing here, but if you’re a whack-job delusion freak (as you are) and want to be persuasive (as it seems), then it’s probably better to show some self-restraint, holding back a little of the looney-tunes nonsense.
Granted, normal people will still laugh at you even without all your “friends” killed-off by the vaccines, but adding that extra layer of lunacy just makes matters worse.
"Heretical" wasn't the first word that came to mind.
Jarndyce : “… but it is amazing that a majority of the Missouri legislature would do so … ”
It’s not amazing at all. (1) Today’s Right decided to go anti-vaxx for political gain. (2) Many anti-vaccine groups are heavily invested in quack cures like ivermectin and HCQ. (3) Pandering to those groups is now a mainstream priority for GOP politicians, no matter how grotesque, fringe and freakish they are.
DeSantis is the prime example, but another Florida Man story illustrates it as well. Sarasota Memorial Hospital is currently under jihadist attack by a collection of MAGA and QAnon groups, Michael Flynn being one of the leaders. Suddenly hundreds of people appear at the hospital board meetings to harangue facility officials. The rhetoric runs like this:
“It would appear that the treatment of patients is being deliberately made to worsen the condition of patients reported to be hospitalized with Covid-19.” He went on, “Hitler would be very proud of what’s happening at Sarasota Memorial Hospital.”
“We believe Sarasota Memorial Hospital, by implementing Covid-19 hospital protocols resulting in injury and death while ignoring proven early treatment options, has engaged in reckless behavior resulting in irreparable harm. Patients have reported being denied effective treatments such as Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine, and other treatments while being subjected to experimental therapies some of which were proven deadly in previous studies.”
The hospital staff has been inundated with threatening phone calls and death threats. The dull hospital board elections are now heavily politicized, with MAGA candidates running on a “medical freedom” platform. Michael Flynn is demanding the hospital be privatized. Although the hospital’s covid mortality rate was 24% lower than the national average, there are constant cries of “murderers” and calls for vengeance.
Although this originates from the deeply stupid, it is promoted and abetted by the cesspool of dishonesty & cynicism that is today’s Right.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/03/mike-flynn-and-maga-activists-wage-war-against-a-florida-hospital/
By "Many anti-vaccine groups are heavily invested in quack cures like ivermectin and HCQ," do you mean financially or just politically?
He’s just repeating propaganda.
Well, mostly politically, but there are individual doctors (like "America's Frontline Doctors") who use this quackery as a marketing gimmick.
Jarndyce : “do you mean financially or just politically?”
Politically. Sure there are a few hucksters promoting snake oil in the mix, but the drugs in question are mainly stage props for the Right’s new Culture War play toy. If they didn’t exist, the Right would have to invent them.
(of course that’s pretty much what they effectively did)
You mean a scam using long-used drugs that have received Nobel Peace Prizes for their usage and cost markedly less to use?
Yeah, go with that.
STATES RANKED BY EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT
(includes territories; 52 entities ranked)
UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE
Missouri 33
ADVANCED DEGREE
Missouri 31
AVERAGE ACT SCORE
Missouri 30
Outside the St. Louis metropolitan area, Missouri is indistinguishable from Kentucky, Idaho, West Virginia, or Alabama.
Its true that ivermectin and HCQ were ineffective though there was initial reason to believe that HCQ would be effective due to much lower case rates in lupus patients. Subsequent info proved that initial hope was ill founded. At the same time, remdisiver has about the same effectiveness as ivermectin and HCQ which is near zero, yet it has been approved.
Which is worse - those bad promoting snake oil or the CDC promoting crap as if it was good medical science. Both sides gave crap advice
from the study printed in the JAMA
"In the initial-treatment analysis, we observed 3557 mortality events (14.3%) in the remdesivir group and 3775 mortality events (15.2%) in the control group. The 28-day mortality rate was 0.5 per person-month in the remdesivir group and 0.6 per person-month in the control group. "
the study then touts the 0.5 v .06 to get 17% benefit.
Well what matters is who profits from the government position? If bureaucrats, politicians and their families, and government client groups profit then the advice is good and righteous. If Big Pharma or civil servants do not profit, then the advice is evil and unscientific.
concur with the profit issue with remdisiver , there were indications that either fauci or his wife had some financial stake and/or stock holdings with the remdisiver. fauci had similar issues with azt.
quite frankly, I was quite surprised by the early praise glorified results of the remdisver study. The supposed benefits were highly subjective vs objective criteria with claim of reduced hospital stay from 8 days down to 6 days. - Very small population size in the study and very subjective evaluation the patient status. should have been very easy to see how crappy the study was.
Your argument is that Dr. Fauci intentionally gave bad advice because of financial interests in pharma manufacturers? I just want to be clear about what you're accusing him of.
Reallynotbob : "Your argument is that Dr. Fauci intentionally gave bad advice.."
In his spare time left over from eating babies & torturing small cute puppies.
Just saying that Fauci's hands arent exactly clean with the promotion of either remdisiver or azt (granted fauci only had a mid level role in the promotion of azt in the 1980's)
No; you made a specific charge: Dr. Fauci promoted remdisiver for financial gain. I found zero evidence to support that.
Can you provide any?
There were indications!
like Fauci's involvement in changing the reporting results to delete any reference to the zero delta in death rates betweeen remdisiver and the placebo , instead focusing on the subjective criteria of "hospital stay time " with out taking into account level of seriousness of illness vs objective criteria such as death rate differences - which were near zero.
Even if what you're saying is true, how is that an "indication" that "either fauci or his wife had some financial stake and/or stock holdings with the remdisiver"?
No, I bet he promoted other drugs he had no financial interest in. The list, I bet, is large.
What financial interest? Please provide specifics.
No. They weren’t ineffective. The their testing was just designed to fail. Ivermectin, at least is best used as a prophylaxis - if taken daily it appears to prevent the virus from working. But it usually takes a couple weeks of taking it to work. So, the testing was done in hospitals of people who already were there for having the virus. So, of course the tests failed - they intentionally tested the wrong thing.
No, they were ineffective, loon. Horse dewormer treats worms, not viruses.
Ivermectin and HCQ were about as effective as Remdesevir. Probably both at about placebo level.
Had Trump not mentioned them there would have been zero controversy over their use against COVID. Both drugs have a very long track record of safety.
Also, the harms from forced lockdowns FAR exceeded any risks posed by either drug.
One of the key features of the FD&C act is that it requires drug companies to create a label describing new drugs that the FDA has to approve, and to stick to the approved label in drug promotion.
The FD&C Act only regulated the activities of drug companies, not doctors or pharmacists. Doctors are free to prescribe a drug for off-label use.
But this decision has implications for the FD&C Act. If the First Amendment leaves pharmacists free to promote drugs for use outside their approved labels, why wouldn’t it give drug companies the same freedom? And if drug companies can get a drug approved for one use, any use, and then are free to promote their drugs for anything and everything, that could radically change how drug use is regulated in this country.
Things might not might change so much, since insurance companies, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. might continue not to reimburse for most off-label use. But if it becomes routine to get approval for the use that’s easiest to get approval for rather than the most common use, and the approved use starts becoming a fine-print technicality of interest to lawyers only that has nothing to do with what most people actually want to use it for, that could change too.
1) This case is not about pharmacists promoting drugs.
2) The 1A ought to give drug companies the same freedom. In fact, some courts have interpreted it that way. See U.S. v. Caronia, 703 F.3d 149 (2nd Cir. 2012) for instance.
That does not mean that they are "free to promote their drugs for anything and everything." As I mentioned in a comment a couple of minutes ago, laws against fraud still apply. They are only free to truthfully promote their drugs.
Leaving constitutional rights aside, drug makers have a greater financial incentive than pharmacists to mislead the public or sell unsafe products.
I realize the Missouri law here prohibited pharmacists from criticizing off-label use, which is different from the FD&C Act’s prohibition on promoting it. I understand judges would think this represent a more sympathetic set of facts than e.g. getting ivermectin approved as a horse dewormer and then promoting it as a COVID cure without needing any supporting evidence of even safety in humans. But under the District Court’s viewpoint discrimination analysis, it shouldn’t matter which viewpoint the speaker takes. The whole point of viewpoint discrimination is that the First Amendment would protect both sides equally. If the state can’t prohibit criticizing unapproved use of drugs, can it prohibit promoting unapproved use?
Perhaps government has a compelling interest in one but not the other. But the opinion speaks in sweeping terms. There’s nothing in it suggesting a plaintiff who wants to promote rather than criticize off-label use of invermectin (or any drug) would be treated any differently.
Yes, I know this is about a state law. But the same applies:
The Constitution is a dead letter used only for perfunctory purposes. Pols pay it lip service but little else. Judges bend it every which way possible to enable whatever the Congress enacts. It has done nothing to limit government despite it being one of its primary purposes.
As Lysander Spooner said of it, “But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain – that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”
For evidence we need only look around us. Virtually nowhere do we find that the Constitution places any meaningful obstacles in the way of federal power.
The PATRIOT Act, of course, enables the federal government to freely spy on countless Americans with no probable cause. The accused are not permitted to defend themselves in open court, for reasons of “national security.” The privacy of Americans has been effectively abolished. The US Constitution does not prevent this in any way.
And then there is the federal war on drugs. Once upon a time, it was accepted as common knowledge that the federal government did not have the power to regulate intoxicating substances. This is why it was necessary to pass a new constitutional amendment allowing for alcohol prohibition. Then that amendment was repealed. Later, federal judges and politicians decided that the meaning of the Constitution had mysteriously changed to now allow for the federal government to dictate what we all could smoke or eat after all.
At this point, who would be naïve enough to think the federal government would limit itself from any “necessary” act just because it is unconstitutional?
And then, of course, there are the countless federal laws that control every aspect of everyday life from what one can buy or sell to whom one can hire and with whom one may do business.
Are these powers listed under the “enumerated” powers of the Constitution? Do they violate the Bill of Rights? Virtually no one cares. Which means it doesn’t matter. It’s constitutional if the politicians and courts say so.
So, when it comes to the Constitution’s ability to restrain government power, the conclusion is obvious: that scrap of parchment is an obvious failure, and it is apparent that the text of the document is insufficient to prevent interpretations of the text which empower the federal government rather than limit it. It is also apparent that the public and their representatives are uninterested in limiting federal power.
The de facto status of the Constitution is that it positively authorizes every new “despotic incursion” the federal government wishes to initiate. In turn, everything the federal government wishes to do is ultimately constitutional. So long as the public tolerates it.
Would also mention some implications for abortion.
The reason it’s been considered constitutional for the FDA to prohibit drug companies from promoting off label uses is that the FD&C Act prohibits drug companies from shipping drugs across state lines for off-label use. And since it can prohibit speech tending to promote interstate shipment for off-label use as crime facilitating speech, even though the use of the drugs once they reach the receiving state remains legal. It comes from an earlier, narrower understanding of interstate commerce. But it also requires assuming that what constitutes a crime for crime-facilitating speech purposes is determined with respect to the speaker and the speaker’s jurisdiction, even when it is legal for the listener to do the act facilitated from the point of view of their jurisdiction.
Recent abortion controversies challenge both assumptions. The Justice Department has determined that for Comstock Act Purposes, a drug company never intends to ship for any specific use, regardless of any speech it makes promoting its product. If this is correct, it would mean the FD&C Act can essentially never be enforced. Very few of its provisions would be enforceable, and the vast regulatory framework built around then would collapse. A drug company could never be convicted of shipping products for an unapproved use because its intent to ship for any particular purposes can essentially never be proved. And no speech a drug company ever makes could ever constitute crime facilitating speech, or be considered relevant evidence for a prosecution.
The Justice Department may think its memo is limited to abortion only and the Comstock Act only. But it has vast implications for the FD&C Act. It radically undermines many of its key provisions should drug companies wish to challenge them in court.
In addition, recent cases holding that the crime facilitating speech provision of the First Amendment is determined with respect to the listener and the listener’s jurisdiction (so if it’s legal for the recipient to get an abortion in Illinois, then the speaker can’t be prohibited from raising funds for it in Texas), would render the FD&C Act’s prohibitions of drug companies promoting off-label use completely unconstitutional unless Congress chooses to expand the FD&C Act’s scope to directly prohibit off-label uses (and unless it has the constitutional power to do this).
Ivermectin and HCQ are great but what about tried and true Covid cures like:
“we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light -[…] supposing you brought the light inside the body, either through the skin or some other way.”
Or how about injecting disenfectant into your lungs for a “cleaning”
Im glad the people of Missouri won’t be bamboozled by pharmacists into thinking these are not legitimate therapeutic defenses against Covid
Estragon virtually nobody was promoting bleach / disinfectant as many of the “pro-science ” advocates are claiming.
neither HCQ or ivermectin were effective (though neither was remdisiver which was promoted by Fauci). both HCQ and Ivermectin proved to very ineffective by early summer of 2020. Though in defense of HCQ, case rates were lower in the lupus population which were taking HCQ which gave the initial appearance of possible effectiveness. In defense of Ivermectin, case rates were also lower in regions that had high ivermectin usage, possibly due partial cross immunity with other viruses that were prevalent in those regions.
Unfortunately, believe in HCQ and ivermectin persisted long past their shelf life.
Hey, mistaken belief in the efficacy and safety of the mRNA vaccines continues to this day. They remain basically untested several years down the road, still dispensed to the American public under EUAs. For example, Pfizer tested their vaccine for safety in pregnant women using fewer than a different mice in both the test and control group. There were twice as many miscarriages in the test group(2>1), but due to the tiny numbers involved, the company was able to claim that those numbers were not statistically significant. They were ordered to run a study on the dangers of myocarditis and pericarditis shortly after they got EUA approval in early 2021. The study was over in June of 2022, with results by the end of the year. When confronted with FOIA requests for the results in late January, the FDA asked Pfizer, which, without apparently giving an excuse, asked for an extension until June of this year, which was dutifully granted. Probably the most claimed side effects of their vaccine, and they have yet to provide any test results to the FDA. And guess what? If their vaccines can cause miscarriages, myocarditis, pericarditis, etc, it’s not on either Pfizer or Moderna – they are still operating under EUAs that immunize them from suits for vaccine damage.
Maybe if you lie about this for the 100th time, it will stop being a lie. Pfizer. Is. Not. An. EUA. Pfizer. Was. Approved. Almost. Two. Years. Ago.
And of course there have been billions of doses administered, so claiming that it is "basically untested" makes Donald Trump look like a Rhodes Scholar.
And of course Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are offered around the world, so whether these companies are "immunized from suits for vaccine damage" in the U.S. would not help them if in fact the vaccines had serious side effects.
“Virtually nobody”
But why should the fact that more people bought into HCQ than lung disenfecting matter? They’re both off label uses.
Estrogan –
Again you are mischaracterizing what was happening
Granted there were a few loons (very few) that bought into the HCQ bleach bit,
HCQ did have early speculation that it would work because because the case rates in the lupus population was much lower than the general population, thus the speculation that HCQ worked. By June 2020 (possibly as early as May 2020) , it generally well known that HCQ did not work.
So while HCQ did not/does not work, there was valid reason early on believe that it would work. Same with Ivermectin which has lower case rates in most of the regions that have heavy ivermectin usage. Best speculation on the lower case rates in ivermectin use regions is that is there is some cross immunity from other virus[es] that are prevalent in those areas.
just to be clear, there nothing that indicates the ivermectin works
Is saying something is or is not an off label use really a statement about efficacy? Most of the ivermectin people weren’t putting much stock into what the FDA had to say to begin with
estrogen - you are claiming people were doing stupid things they didnt do so that you can falsely claim they were stupid.
Try to be honest
I’m not claiming anyone is stupid. I’m trying to suss out the line here— is it really a comment on efficacy to say “trying to treat athlete’s foot (or whatever condition- doesn’t have to be Covid) with ivermectin is an off label use, according to the FDA.”
It seems to me efficacy and what is this medicine labeled for by FDA are two different questions.
estrogen - you changed your story line to hide you dishonesty - note your original statements :
Estragon 7 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
“Virtually nobody”
But why should the fact that more people bought into HCQ than lung disenfecting matter?
Estragon 9 hours ago
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Ivermectin and HCQ are great but what about tried and true Covid cures like:
“we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light -[…] supposing you brought the light inside the body, either through the skin or some other way.”
Or how about injecting disenfectant into your lungs for a “cleaning”
What story? If you find the quoted comments “stupid” great.
As policy matter this law was deeply stupid, I think we agree there. State encouragement of quackery. Where does it end??
Will this ruling have any effect on cases where a legislature requires state medical boards to revoke the licenses of doctors who discourage their patients from taking the Covid "vaccines" because they don't work and are often harmful?
Could be. Do you have a citation to such a law?