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Ninth Circuit Strikes Down Ban on Landlords' Inquiring About Prospective Tenants' Criminal History, But …
upholds the ban on landlords' taking adverse action based on that information.
From today's Ninth Circuit decision in Yim v. City of Seattle, written by Judge Kim McLane Wardlaw, joined in part by Judges Ronald M. Gould and Mark J. Bennett:
In 2017, the City of Seattle enacted the Fair Chance Housing Ordinance. The Ordinance prohibits landlords from inquiring about the criminal history of current or potential tenants, and from taking adverse action, such as denying tenancy, against them based on that information….
We conclude that the Ordinance's inquiry provision impinges upon the First Amendment rights of the landlords, as it is a regulation of speech that does not survive intermediate scrutiny. However, we reject the landlords' claim that the adverse action provision of the Ordinance violates their substantive due process rights. The landlords do not have a fundamental right to exclude, and the adverse action provision survives rational basis review….
[We need not decide] whether the Ordinance regulates commercial speech and calls for the application of intermediate scrutiny, or whether the Ordinance regulates non-commercial speech and is subject to strict scrutiny review …, because we conclude that the Ordinance does not survive the intermediate scrutiny standard of review….
"Any First Amendment interest … is altogether absent when the commercial activity itself is illegal, and the restriction on advertising is incidental to a valid limitation on economic activity." It is undisputed that the Ordinance does not prohibit misleading speech. Rather, it prohibits inquiring about information that is of record, and most likely accurate. While criminal records may be "associated with unlawful activity," reviewing and obtaining criminal records is generally a legal activity. A prohibition on reviewing criminal records therefore is not speech that "proposes an illegal transaction" and does not escape First Amendment scrutiny under Central Hudson.
The City's stated interests—reducing barriers to housing faced by persons with criminal records and the use of criminal history as a proxy to discriminate on the basis of race—are substantial. The landlords do not challenge the importance of these interests. Therefore, we evaluate whether the Ordinance directly and materially advances the government's substantial interests, and whether it is narrowly tailored to achieve them….
To be sustained, the Ordinance must directly advance a substantial state interest, and "the regulation may not be sustained if it provides only ineffective or remote support for the government's purpose." A restriction "directly and materially advances" the government's interests if the government can show "the harms it recites are real and that its restriction will in fact alleviate them to a material degree." There is no dispute that the harms the City points to—a crisis of homelessness among the formerly incarcerated and landlords' use of criminal history as a proxy for race—"are real," or that the City's purpose was to combat racial discrimination….
[But] the Ordinance is [not] "narrowly drawn" to achieve the City's stated goals. Central Hudson, 447 U.S. at 565 (internal quotation marks and citation omitted).
"[I]f the governmental interest could be served as well by a more limited restriction on commercial speech, the excessive restrictions cannot survive." Courts therefore must consider "[t]he availability of narrower alternatives," which accomplish the same goals, but "intrude less on First Amendment rights." "In requiring that [the restriction] be 'narrowly tailored' to serve an important or substantial state interest, we have not insisted that there be no conceivable alternative, but only that the regulation not 'burden substantially more speech than is necessary to further the government's legitimate interests.'" In considering the "fit between the legislature's ends and the means chosen to accomplish those ends," the fit must not necessarily be the "least restrictive means," but "reasonable" and through "a means narrowly tailored to achieve the desired objective."
In order to conclude that the inquiry provision was "narrowly drawn" to achieve the City's goals related to housing access and racial discrimination, we therefore must find that the City "carefully calculated the costs and benefits associated with the burden on speech," and that the inquiry provision struck a "reasonable" balance between the interests of various parties. Here, the inquiry provision—a complete ban on any discussion of criminal history between the landlords and prospective tenants—is not "in proportion to the interest served" by the Ordinance in reducing racial injustice and reducing barriers to housing. Other cities have enacted similar ordinances to achieve the same goals of reducing barriers to housing and racial discrimination as Seattle. While we do not address the constitutionality of any of these ordinances, none of them forecloses all inquiry into criminal history by landlords, as does Seattle's blanket ban on any criminal history inquiry.
The ordinances adopted by those other jurisdictions fall into two main categories. The first type of ordinance ("Type I")—adopted by Cook County,San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Detroit, and the State of New Jersey—requires landlords to conduct an initial screening of potential tenants without looking at their criminal history and to notify applicants whether they pass that initial screening. At that point, landlords are permitted to order a criminal background check, but must provide the applicant with a copy of the report, give them a chance to provide mitigating information, and may consider only a limited subset of offenses. Cook County permits landlords to consider any convictions within the last three years; San Francisco and Washington, D.C. permit landlords to consider any convictions sustained within the past seven years; and the State of New Jersey creates a sliding scale, allowing landlords to consider fourth degree offenses within the past year, second or third degree offenses within the last four years, first degree offenses within the last six years, and a short list of extremely serious offenses including murder and aggravated sexual assault no matter when they occurred.
The second type of ordinance ("Type II")—adopted by Portland and Minneapolis—allows landlords to either consider an applicant's entire criminal history, but complete a written individualized evaluation of the applicant, and explain any rejection in writing, or consider only a limited subset of offenses—misdemeanor convictions within the last three years or felony convictions within the last seven years—without any additional procedures.
The inquiry requirement in both types of ordinances imposes a significantly lower burden on landlords' speech. As amici assert, screening before the Ordinance often examined "the presence of violent offenses in a criminal history" and the "type of crime and length of time since the crime was committed." These ordinances would permit the landlords to ask a potential tenant about their most recent, serious offenses, which is the information a landlord would be most interested in. Neither ordinance imposes any additional costs on the City.
Indeed, the record demonstrates that Seattle considered a narrower version of the Ordinance, as well as many fair housing ordinances from other jurisdictions, and rejected those versions with little stated justification. The first version of the Seattle Ordinance permitted landlords to inquire about some criminal convictions, while still banning them from asking about: "arrests not leading to convictions; pending criminal charges; convictions that have been expunged, sealed, or vacated; juvenile records, including listing of a juvenile on a sex offense registry; and convictions older than two years from the date of the tenant's application." Yet, when it decided to broaden the inquiry provision to a blanket ban, the Council offered the tenuous explanation that landlords did not insist on background checks a decade ago, so therefore there was "no evidence that criminal history is an indicator of a bad tenant." A decade ago, however, the technology did not exist to readily screen potential tenants—much as routine credit checks on tenants did not exist a few decades ago. Like with credit checks, as soon as the technology existed, landlords insisted on using it to screen tenants because they were concerned about tenants with a criminal history. From the record before us, Seattle offered no reasonable explanation why the more "narrowly tailored" versions of the bill could not "achieve the desired objective" of reducing racial barriers in housing.
Because a number of other jurisdictions have adopted legislation that would appear to meet Seattle's housing goals, but is significantly less burdensome on speech, we conclude that the inquiry provision at issue here is not narrowly tailored, and thus fails intermediate scrutiny….
The court rejected, however, the argument that the "adverse action provision" violated a substantive due process "right to exclude persons from their property"; no such right exists, the court held, in this situation:
[T]he Supreme Court has never recognized the right to exclude as a "fundamental" right in the context of the Due Process Clause. Cf. Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid (2021) (referring to the right to exclude as "a fundamental element of the property right" in the context of a takings clause analysis)….
Judge Wardlaw joined the opinion but wrote a concurrence, just to explain why she thought that the speech regulated by the inquiry provision was indeed commercial speech. Judge Bennett joined most of the opinion, just to explain why he thought the opposite. And Judge Gould joined most of the opinion, but dissented as to the striking down of the inquiry provision:
First, the opinion's assertion that the alternative laws "appear[] to meet Seattle's housing goals" is all well and good, but there is nothing in the record (or otherwise) from which we could reasonably reach that conclusion. The fact that five cities, one county, and the State of New Jersey enacted these alternative measures in an attempt to address some of the same issues as Seattle does not mean that they will "accomplish the same goals[.]" In fact, the majority identifies no data or evidence that these alternatives have been, or will be, effective at all, let alone as effective as Seattle's inquiry provision. The opinion's reasoning rests entirely on one federal panel's take as to what works in housing policy based on summaries of statutes alone. How is this anything other than a federal court "second-guess[ing]" the considered judgment of a democratically elected local government?
And it is a dubious take at that. If anything, it is more reasonable to assume that the alternatives will be less effective. Both alternatives permit landlords to access at least some of a prospective tenant's criminal history. Taking seriously the notion that permitting landlords to access criminal history would make it "extremely difficult to enforce" the law's prohibition on discrimination—as the opinion does, albeit elsewhere—these alternatives open the door for more undetectable (and unenforceable) violations. How does the mere existence of less effective alternative laws demonstrate that there are "numerous and obvious less-burdensome alternatives" that would accomplish the same goals as the inquiry prohibition?
Second, the opinion's reasoning as to the inquiry provision's burden on speech is lacking. "In general, 'almost all of the [commercial speech] restrictions disallowed under [the narrow tailoring] prong have been substantially excessive, disregarding far less restrictive and more precise means.'" Courts have struck down only those laws that go "much further than is necessary to serve the interest asserted."
On this front, the opinion takes issue with the fact that the inquiry provision bars landlords from accessing records of a prospective tenant's recent or violent offenses. But one of Seattle's substantial interests is reducing discrimination against anyone with a criminal record—not just those with old or nonviolent records. Restricting access to records of recent or violent offenses is at the core of, and no less necessary to accomplishing, Seattle's aims than restricting access to older and less violent criminal records. How is restricting access to information at the heart of the discrimination that Seattle aims to eliminate "substantially excessive" in relation to Seattle's goals? How would excluding such records from the scope the inquiry provision make Seattle's law "more precise"?
Finally, the opinion's characterization of Seattle's reasoning in enacting the inquiry provision as "tenuous" is unfounded. The record before us links to a public recording of the hearing at which Seattle considered whether the inquiry provision should include recent offenses. At this hearing, the proponent of an amendment to include recent offenses in the provision's scope noted that (1) widespread access to criminal records is a modern phenomenon, yet (2) there was "no evidence" in the studies or other evidence before the city that this change in access led to better (or worse) outcomes for landlords or tenants. Accordingly, the proponent reasoned that access to criminal records—new or old—had only opened the door to unwarranted discrimination. The record shows that several other members of Seattle's city council endorsed this view. After a considered discussion, the change was adopted unanimously, as was the ultimate legislation later.
What exactly about Seattle's reasoning was "tenuous"? It (roughly) echoes a line of reasoning familiar to this Court: a conclusion reached after evaluating the results of a kind of "natural experiment" created by a change in circumstances. Here, Seattle reached its conclusion after comparing the evidence before it on the state of the rental market before, and after, the advent of widespread access to criminal records. The opinion may disagree with Seattle's read of this evidence, but it does not explain how it came to that conclusion. That is an unpersuasive basis for overruling Seattle's considered effort to tackle a vexing local issue….
I believe our precedent requires us to uphold the inquiry provision. There is a "reasonable" fit between the inquiry provision and Seattle's aims. And Seattle's version of the inquiry provision is not "substantially excessive" in relation to Seattle's goals. The inquiry provision restricts only landlords' access to prospective tenants' criminal records—the precise information upon which Seattle wants to stop landlord discrimination. It goes no further. It does not bar landlord inquiries into a prospective tenant's rental history, income history, character references, job history, etc. A landlord could ask for references from recent landlords. A landlord could ask previous landlords "Hey, did this tenant ever do anything to make you or your other tenants feel unsafe?" "These ample alternative channels for receipt of information about" prospective tenants' ability to safely and successfully lease an apartment demonstrate that the law's sweep is neither disproportionate nor imprecise….
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OK. So a potential tenant with a long criminal history, let's say violent criminal history, applies for an apartment vacancy. Under Seattle law, landlord can't hold it against him. So landlord reluctantly rents to said tenant.
Said tenant then commits violence against his neighbors. Is this law now a defense to a negligence claim against the landlord?
Yes. Compliance with a statute is a defense to a tort claim.
Does the landlord get to recover costs to defend against such a claim?
Such a claim would be frivolous so maybe.
Maybe to the negligence claim of failing to do a criminal background check. But probably not to a negligence claim of renting to a criminal. Small distinction, but very possibly significant.
Yes, I am biased - we do credit and criminal background checks, and, still, bad tenants sneak through. Got one last year, where someone squatted in one of our vacant units for a week or two, then broke into their neighbor’s unit, trashing it, and stealing a bunch of stuff. We’re we on the hook for that? Of course.
What you say makes no sense. The ordinance prohibits adverse action on the basis of criminal history, so renting to someone with one can't be deemed negligence. And your example is not on point: Presumably you were found liable for not detecting and evicting the squatter, not because he "snuck through" a background check process.
Doesn't the landlord have a duty, if he knows that a particular tenant has a criminal history, to take additional affirmative steps to protect the other tenants, e.g., hiring a security guard? Or at least a jury might plausibly determine that a reasonable landlord would have taken such additional steps. The statute wouldn't be a defense against the claim that the landlord breached that duty.
Why wouldn’t it be a defense?
The statute doesn't prohibit landlords from applying those other security measures. A plaintiff could argue that the landlord had constructive knowledge of the risk, and thus should have taken precautions that are consistent with the statute.
No worries: Sarcastro and Kyrchek, the legal experts, stand ready to indemnify any landlord faced with such a claim. Right? Come on boys, put your money where your mouth is.
I asked a question and got it answered. If you think that makes me a legal expert…
My recollection from torts is that if the cost of a safety measure such as hiring a security guard is prohibitively expensive that’s a defense to not doing it.
Since the landlord can't exclude a potential client with a criminal record, this would be a very good reason that the landlord shouldn't even ask about it.
Not a defense, just an additional cost to the landlord if they want to avoid liability from renting to a felon.
That the Law says they have to rent to. This is Seattle after all home of the "Defund the Police" movement.
A landlord having a duty to hire a security guard?
If that is a reasonable step for the prospective landlord of a person with a criminal history, then that is a wealthy-enough criminal-history person that they don't need the protection of this law.
Which is to say, no, not at all.
"the use of criminal history as a proxy to discriminate on the basis of race"
Some say the "ban the box" movement in employment law is counterproductive because employers will use race directly. Under the old rules if a black man applied for a job he could provide a clean criminal history to prove his innocence. Now that's illegal in some states. Of course it's also illegal to use race directly, but racial discrimination is harder to prove than use of criminal background checks. And racial discrimination does not need to be conscious. If the last three people who strike you as similar turned out to be problem employees your brain is going to pass judgment on the fourth.
It’s not used in most cases as a proxy for racial discrimination, but rather to discriminate against people more likely to trash the place, use it for illegal purposes, engage in violence, stiff landlords on rent, etc. What happens if someone cooks meth in one of your units? The remediation, required by law, often costs more than the unit is worth. Strip it down to the studs, if you are lucky. What happens if there is a shootout in one of your units? While probably costing less than a meth cleanup, the cost is still significant. All the blood lying around is a biohazard. What about domestic abusers? They may cause the neighbors to vacate, not wanting to hear the recurring fights. And every turnover is expensive - you not only have a period of time when the unit is empty, and not generating income, you also have the costs of advertising, showing, doing credit checks, etc, as well as the Make Ready costs of cleaning, painting, etc. we estimate, in a good rental market, that turnover costs 2-3 months rent. We have one building with high turnover, and are thinking about selling it because it is now unprofitable (despite not having a mortgage loan on it).
The idea that criminal background checks are a proxy for race discrimination is wishful thinking, trying to enforce equality of results, despite not entering with equal credentials. If someone wants to discriminate on the basis of race, all you need to do is look at the color of their skin, or if you are deprived of that just their names on the application. Far simpler and more foolproof than doing it through having a criminal record.
Bruce - Concur with your assessment - Discrimination based on risk assessment remains valid. discrimination based on race remains invalid.
Fortunately my worst tenant only got behind by 2-3 months.
The two are inexplicably intertwined, it seems.
Bravo - while they intertwined, ie venn diagram / large overlap in the population, there remains two separate and distinct criteria, One being valid discrimination, the other invalid discrimination.
"What about domestic abusers?"
Domestic abuse victims are a protected class in Massachusetts landlord-tenant law.
To the extent that they are criminals, so are abusers, in Seattle.
Its unfair to assume someone might be a criminal just because they have a criminal history!
"we reject the landlords' claim that the adverse action provision of the Ordinance violates their substantive due process rights"
Unfortunately correct but only because "substantive due process" is an oxymoron. "Process" [in other words procedure] impacts "substance" but can't create it.
Lesson is don't be a landlord in Seattle. Imagine a elderly widow living in and owning a two family being forced to rent to a convicted rapist.
I see both sides of this one. Yes, I don't want an elderly widow having to rent half her duplex to a convicted rapist. But for every situation like that there's probably 100 cases of people whose dumb mistakes from years ago that they're well past keep them from getting jobs and housing. And even if you don't care about them, there are collateral effects that harm society as a whole. Maybe the solution is that certain types of convictions from years past can't be considered.
"dumb mistakes"
Crimes.
"from years ago"
If long ago, its probably not a real problem. Under this ordinance you can't deny renting to a violent criminal released from prison the day before the application.
Crimes and dumb mistakes are not mutually exclusive.
Aren't O/O duplexes exempt from a lot of these laws?
They are exempt from some of these laws. I do not know about Seattle.
You are frigging making those numbers up.
That’s why I said “probably “.
Interesting...would you also ban using criminal history for adverse employment decisions?
It depends on the job. I would not hire a convicted rapist to work in a girls’ dormitory and I would not hire a convicted embezzler to handle money. On the other hand, if someone has a conviction for statutory rape for having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend I’m not sure I would hold it against him if I had an opening for a paralegal or an accountant. As a matter of public policy I’d probably ban using criminal history unless it’s related to the job.
Uh huh... And how exactly do you determine if it's "related to the job"?
If it's a convicted rapist, do you hire them to work at a local McDonalds, where they may (or may not be) alone on a night shift with a couple young female co-workers? What about someone known to engage in larceny or embezzlement in the same position?
The same way you determine any other question of fact.
I have the same opinion of convicted rapists as everyone else here, but unless you’re willing to put them on public assistance for the rest of their lives, they’ve got to make a living somehow. If they can’t find legal employment they’ll find illegal employment. So find a job with the minimal amount of risk and let them work.
But the government is better at determining the "right amount of risk" for an individual, than the individual?
Sometimes yes, not always. People aren't always rational, people aren't that great at risk assessment, people allow their prejudices and paranoias to make their decisions for them. Rendering groups of people unemployable impacts society as a whole as their problems tend to spill over onto everybody else. If, objectively, someone poses no real threat, why should somebody else's prejudices keep them from working?
I've already said that people who do pose a real threat can and should be kept out of situations where they can do damage. Your issue with my position seems to be that I think that question needs to be answered objectively rather than based on a particular employer's or landlord's biases.
No, the real issue with your position is, does the government decide what's right for the employer, the right amount of risk and so on, or does the individual decide?
Typically, in my opinion, individuals will make better decisions about their individual circumstances and willingness to take risk, than the government will. They'll have a better understanding of the minutiae, and their own circumstance. Not always, but usually. It's why capitalism (as opposed to communism) works.
Government will suffer from a number of failures, including, but not limited to, lack of individualized attention and corruption.
Many felons can, and will be hired, under various circumstances by various people. But it's their choice to do so. Having government be involved would strip them of that right. And that isn't good, and leads to various inefficiences.
All that may or may not be true. The government does have a rational interest in convicted felons who have served their time being able to return to society and earn a living.
"But for every situation like that there’s probably 100 cases of people whose dumb mistakes from years ago that they’re well past keep them from getting jobs and housing."
(citation needed)
I believe Krychek is saying that if the elderly widow *owns* the property, she should be allowed to be cautious about whom she shares it with. But if she's just renter scum, there's no way the landlord should be allowed to protect her from fellow tenants. She'll have to take her chances with the other peasants.
No, what I’m saying is look at it case by case. An elderly widow sharing a duplex with a rapist is not the same as a convicted embezzler living in a fifty unit building, so don’t treat them the same.
For that matter, if the convicted rapist was convicted of raping little boys , the elderly widow is probably in no real danger from him.
A good lesson indeed. Better yet, don't be a landlord anywhere. Get a job and contribute to society, instead of parasitically extracting rents from your working tenants.
Yes, better there be no renting of apartments, and people who cannot afford homes live in the park or on the street.
Wait, that's basically the San Francisco model.
Yes, you're right, San Francisco famously does not have any landlords. Lmao.
Bored & Bob – If a progressive actually understood economics – micro economics, then they wouldnt be progressive. Though they would first have to have the intellectual capacity to understand economics.
Did the guy who literally invented economics have "the intellectual capacity to understand economics"? Because here's what he had to say about landlords:
""As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce."
"[Landlords] are the only one of the three orders whose revenue costs them neither labour nor care, but comes to them, as it were, of its own accord, and independent of any plan or project of their own. That indolence, which is the natural effect of the ease and security of their situation, renders them too often, not only ignorant, but incapable of that application of mind"
- Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations.
But Smith envisioned economics as a field of intellectual inquiry, unlike you reactionaries who see it as nothing more than a matter of religious faith, whereby interfering with the rich makes the line go down. In that sense, I will gladly continue to not "understand economics."
"[Landlords] are the only one of the three orders whose revenue costs them neither labour nor care,"
Umm..... ever been a landlord in the US? You honestly going to say it means zero labor or care?
I mean, like all rent seekers, I’m sure they do *some* work. But certainly not anything commensurate with the profits they are able extract.
How much do you believe those profits to be?
So, are you only counting their current work? Or are you also counting their past work?
To give an example here in a different field, take a farmer for example. They plant the seeds, tend the crops all season long. But then the harvest can be relatively minimal in terms of labor. I mean, they just pick an apple off a tree. Is that really worth a dollar or two? That's like just 5 seconds of labor. Anyone could do that. Why should you pay a farmer a full dollar for like 5 seconds worth of labor, which you could just do yourself? I mean, the tree is there, anyone could easily do it.
I’m not anti landlord, but this is a pretty bad analogy.
Houses don’t require yearly cultivation to grow; they require maintenance at irregular times.
But more amusingly, farmers don’t generally pick their own apples. Smith knew that. They pay people. It’s good work being a farmer. Not as great being an apple picker. Kinda the opposite of what you were aiming for.
Houses don't magically appear out of thin air.
Have you ever actually known a farmer?
My late father in law was a lifelong dairy farmer. He was absolutely not paying anyone else to do his work, for the simple reason that there was no money to spare. It was a back breaking shit job that he loved because the farm has been in his family for a century.
But they’re not sitting on their asses paying others to do the work.
All analogies are bad when not understood.
In this case, the sowing is analogous to whatever the landlord did originally to earn the money in order to buy the property. The rents are income on that initial investment.
If you are having trouble with rural metaphors, say instead that the Landlord is like an author who has already written the book. Now the author is doing nothing, and the royalties are just rolling in. Clearly, they are just a just a parasite oppressing their readers.
Twilight fans of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains and your bad taste.
“It’s good work being a farmer. Not as great being an apple picker.”
How many apples do you think you have to pick to buy a farm?
Landlords don’t build houses. They needn’t earn the money - inherited money works fine.
And this was an apple farmer, bevis. Not a dairy farmer.
A landlord can build a house, or work at a different job and pay somebody to build the house, or work and pay to purchase a house already built, or somebody else can work and give them the money to buy a house. What difference does it make?
Thank you Heedless,
And yes, Sarcastro is bad at analogies. It's practically his defining trait, deliberate misunderstanding.
The farmer, in this analogy, is investing time and labor, over time, often years worth of time, before it becomes productive. An apple orchard can take 6 years worth of labor before it begins to bear fruit.
Likewise, a landlord doesn't magically have a house appear. Often, what occurs is a second or third property which they are able to buy, due to hard work and savings of money from other employment. Like the farmer, who labors for 6 years before a productive apple orchard can occur, the landlord often labors for years to accumulate the necessary funds to purchase and build/renovate a property. Or spends more for one in good condition. And on occasion, they build it themselves.
To ignore that long term investment of time and effort is like ignoring the effort that goes into producing an apple, and just focusing on the simple ease of picking the apple at the end of the day.
Im down to say landlords add value, the idea that they are noble caretakers cultivating their meager savings until it grows mighty enough to support their calling is just the other side of Aunt Tifah’s ideological coin.
OK, but what if we eliminate the value laden adjectives that you pulled out of your butt and just say that they are caretakers who cultivate their savings so that it grows? Pretty much indisputable fact, right?
“And this was an apple farmer, bevis. Not a dairy farmer.”
Oh, well that changes everything!
Aunt teefy - you have more than adequately demonstrated that you have zero interest in understanding basic economics
Yes, I have explicitly said as much. I have no interest whatsoever in understanding the moloch religion you call “basic economics.” So what? What does that have to do with the value (or rather lack thereof) created by landlords?
Because it’s like someone having a very strong opinion on vaccination without knowing, or wanting to know, anything about genetics, immunology, or infectious diseases.
Ignorance is correctable, but not a deliberate refusal to understand how the world works.
Heedless - good point
Of course, your comment is premised on the assumption that "basic economics" understands how the world works.
Just to be clear, Adam Smith was talking about owners of farmland. (Most farmland in England at that time was owned by absentees and farmed by tenants.) Rental apartment buildings were not a thing in Georgian England.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/famous-lodgers-renting-london/
Landlords of Smith’s time were predominately land owners renting their land out to farmers and whom rarely made any economic improvements.
Would you take the position that if people “understood economics,” there wouldn’t be discrimination laws of any kind? Race discrimination etc.? If not, you’re not exactly making an argument that this one is in any way different. And if you are, how can you explain why most economists don’t think discrimination laws in general are foolish?
The laws are separate from the economics. Most economists don't proclaim discrimination laws foolish because they don't want to be called racist and consistently protested.
Discrimination generally is bad for business. Done at scale on the workforce it drives up your labor costs to operate. Applied to customers it limits your available sales volume by artificially limiting your reach. This can be made to work but is not a recipe for overall health of a society's economy. Now it is possible that leftist economists see codifying that into law as a good thing it is not the law that makes it good.
So Robert Reich doesn’t understand economics? You’re funny.
Not according to his twitter.
You know, if I have to make a bet as to who understands economics better -- Robert Reich with his PhD in the subject, his teaching experience, the books he's written, the jobs he's had -- or BCD, that's an easy one.
If I had to make a bet as to who understands anything better than BCD, it would be the other person. But Reich does not have a PhD in economics; he's a lawyer.
Krychek_2 11 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"So Robert Reich doesn’t understand economics? You’re funny."
Not so funny - Paul Krugman has a Nobel Prize in economics.
Krugman's economic textbook contradicts everything Krugman states in his NYT commentary along with most everything in his twitter commentary.
Robert Reich follows the Krugman playbook
It’s not unusual for experts in any field to disagree or change their minds and that doesn’t mean that either of them are ignoramuses. It means that experts in the field frequently disagree and sometimes change their minds.
Krychek_2 31 mins ago (edited) "It’s not unusual for experts in any field to disagree or change their minds and that doesn’t mean that either of them are ignoramuses. It means that experts in the field frequently disagree and sometimes change their minds"
Krycheck
You are missing the point of my comment and your response to bravo
Both Reich and Krugman regularly intentionally misstate economic theory to make partisan points which in the case of Krugman directly contradict his textbook. They are not changing their economic beliefs based on new information or new understanding of economics. They are simply trying to make partisan points.
Assuming that to be true, it would not make Reich and Krugman ignorant about economics. It would make them dishonest, which is a separate issue.
which is exactly Bravo's original point.
We've found another field Joe_dallas is an expert in!
"parasitically extracting rents"
Its always the kulaks, eh Comrade?
Nyet, Conrad. It is the nature of landlords, though, at least according to famous socialist intellectual *checks notes* . . . Adam Smith.
Context, please. Smith was not talking about those who built and maintained buildings for others' use. He was talking about land ownership. Smith was a proto-Georgist, and concerned himself with rent seeking for unimproved land.
Are you under the impression that landlords today are themselves constructing the buildings they are renting??
Smith’s insight was that landlords are able to extract profits from the underlying value of the land itself, which existed prior to and without them. That principle does not evaporate when improvements are built atop the land.
Very few people are willing to pay any rent at all for unimproved land. People do not pay NYC levels of rent in order to graze cattle, and very few want to graze cattle even at Montana levels of rent.
I said built and maintained.
Are you under the impression that tenants in Seattle are looking for unimproved land to rent?
Hypothetically speaking, if there weren't any landlords, how would anyone find a place to rent?
The hell with renting. Without landlords, how would those who can’t afford to buy a house have shelter at all?
Presumably Aunt Teefah is primarily concerned with those landlords who extract monetary compensation from their tenants, as opposed to those who allow people to reside there for free...for whatever reason.
Hypothetically?
Assuming first that this lack of landlords would not also mean a lack of hotels, and second that we aren't talking about a society that was suddenly going through a "guillotine the landlords" phase, and instead had just naturally developed such that ownership was so vastly preferred over renting that renting just wasn't an option...
I imagine that in this alternate-history hypothetical, housing needs would be covered by three critical differences with our own timelines.
First-up: flophouses and boarding rooms would still be a thing. They're a weird step between hotels and renting an apartment/house that has (for complex reasons) been basically outlawed in modern America but was very much a thing for a long time, particularly used by single men in their 20s and 30s.
Second: hospitality. Both by friends and community. Two years back, some friends moved into my guestroom for sixth months while they looked for a place to live and got settled. Most people I mentioned this to thought it was insane that I'd let someone stay in my guestroom rent-free that long. In this hypothetical world, that kind of hospitality would be very common and well-regarded, I think.
And third: buying houses in general would be an easier process and, importantly, quicker process for most house sales. I can think of a number of ways this could happen, but the important thing is that it wouldn't be unheard of for a poor person in this hypothetical world to be able to walk up to a bank and buy a house in one day. That said, the tolerance for not making mortgage payments would probably also be lower, and getting your house repossessed would be a much quicker process.
Interesting exercise, but not terribly challenging.
So, while an interesting exercise, have you worked entirely through the consequences of such a society?
A society where people's only method of obtaining housing (where they would normally rent) would be
1. a series of flophouses, with inherent issues within. Good luck with families.
2. Cheap houses which were rapidly repossessed, and required large down deposits and predatory lenders, keeping people poor and in massive debt.
Or...
3. Depending on friends or family, with a lack of mobility if you don't know anyone.
But renting is an evil due to the bad landlords?
To the degree appropriate to this forum.
While I concede that it's often a logical jump from "you're responding to my critique, so you're defending the person I was critiquing", in this case I very explicitly severed my answer to your hypothetical from real-world concerns to consider it as it's own statement.
Which is to say, "renting is evil [...]" is a sentence I'm not defending at all.
Perhaps, if you chose not to defend the statement, you might make that more apparent?
From the tone of your statement, it appeared that you may be entirely on board with the elimination of renting, and that everything would be fine, with no real adverse consequences.
You’re ignoring the myriad benefits of renting: stability (unlike a friend’s guest room), fixed payments (unlike whatever shack the bank would give you a loan to purchase), and the ability to pick up and move if need be.
There is a lot of value in living somewhere inexpensive, for a fixed cost, and, usually, almost as long as you want to. Get a better job 30 miles away? Move. Roof needs repair? That’s the landlord’s five-figure problem. Like to stay because it’s working out and you’re saving for a down payment? Most landlords won’t raise the rent very much, at least if you’re a good tenant. (In Massachusetts, my rent went up $75 over seven years. I don’t mean $75 each year - I mean total.)
A lot of people lose their homes when a big repair overwhelms their ability to pay. That’s really not a great situation and for them, maybe renting is a better option.
Yes. The starting point was "landlords don't exist". If it had been "defend the morality of landlords", it would have been a whole different response.
Dunno; I suspect in Aunt's world, public housing projects would still exist. Maybe there'd be short term government housing as well as quasi-permanent government housing.
Well don't you know? The people in government would provide housing.
Just think we'd all finally be equal all living in the projects. Except for the government employees and their elite patrons of course.
Serial rapists of little old ladies aren't too common. The much bigger concern is a tenant who knows how to abuse the system to live rent-free and trash the place. The tenant who deals drugs out of the apartment.
Are non-criminal background checks on tenants legal in Seattle?
Worse than dealing the drugs, probably, is tenants cooking meth in the bathtub. Over time, it gets everywhere. If you are lucky, you can just tear down the rental to its studs, before rebuilding. And, if you are the landlord, you have two choices - you can do the very expensive remediation, or tear it down.
I didn't think of that because meth labs were never common in Massachusetts. You get cases like the tenant keeps flooding the apartment but he stopped before the court date so you can't evict him. That was a case from when Massachusetts allowed rent control and the town wouldn't allow eviction for misbehavior unless it was a continuing problem.
Apparently. From one of the opinions excerpted above:
You've got to love the blithe statement from someone who has likely never run a business in his life that instead of running a simple records check the prospective landlord should just spend a bunch of time tracking down and calling old landlords, who aren't even likely to answer the questions for fear of being sued anyway.
How is it less discriminatory to ask previous landlords if they ever “felt h safely in the presence of a prospective tenant? At least a criminal conviction requires the violation of a law, the elements of which were laid out ahead of time, and either a plea bargain or conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. Gotta say, if I were not a white chick, I would much prefer the “no criminal history” standard than the “did I ever make someone feel unsafe” standard.
And they wonder why there is a lack of affordable housing.
SHHHHHH. Good intentions are all that count. Unintended consequences don't.
Socialism only works in heaven, where they don't need it, and in hell, where they already have it. --- Ronald Reagan
Probably written for him by Ken Khachigian.
There was a lack of affordable housing in Seattle before this, wasn't there?
Perhaps you should take a class in causation 101.
I will provide the first lesson such a class would teach for free.
If X causes Y, then X occurs before Y.
The primary cause of unaffordable housing is a lack of building. Which is primarily related to zoning restrictions that make it difficult to build dense multi-family housing units which are necessary if you want less expensive housing in cities where space is scarce.
Rather than addressing the core issue, many redirect their concerns about a lack of housing to the landlord/tenant relationship. While that relationship absolutely should be regulated with clear rights and duties for both parties, the reason people with criminal records have a hard time finding housing is going to have more to do with overall housing scarcity. Landlords cannot afford to be as picky in markets where tenants are scarce compared to the overall supply of housing.
This is a terrible idea that will make Seattle an even worse place to live, but it doesn’t apply to owner occupied rentals.
Or finding creative ways around this outrageous law. For instance, if instead of demanding a security deposit I made my tenants post a bond equal to two months rent when they signed the lease, I would “inadvertently” disqualify anyone who isn’t bondable.
And screw the city's so-called interest. If the city wants people housed who won't behave, let it build more public housing projects. Or more jails.
Our experience is that three months is better - because the rent from that long is needed to compensate for the costs of having the unit empty, of resenting it, and of the costs to Make Ready.
Around here you can ask for first and last month's rent and a security deposit of one month's rent. Residential leases are customarily for one year.
I don't know anything about Seattle tenancy law, but based on my experience in other places I would not be shocked to find out that what you describe is illegal.
It was fairly common to demand first month's and last month's rent upfront when I was renting, in addition to security (another month). And get it.
1st and last months rent is currently very common - especially due to the tight rental market in most rental markets.
However, after the mid 80's rental market crash, it was common to have little or no security deposit and one month free. That lasted for 2-3 years.
Such a bond would be illegal in Seattle, and it's not even a close call. Your argument is stupid since it ignores the key fact of the hypo: Posting a bond.
Maximum deposit in Seattle is one month's rent, including nonrefundable fees, payable over six months on request of the tenant, with the refundable portion maintained in specified ways (none of which is via a bond). Landlords can demand first and last months' rents, but that has nothing to do with deposits.
I thought "95% of Amuricans" supported "Common Sense" Background Checks?????
Only for guns and flights. Not for voting, bank accounts, rentals, loans or government services.
Tenants should also be informed of landlords' criminal histories.
Huh? Nothing prevents a tenant from running a background check on a landlord, or refusing to rent from a landlord with a criminal history.
Nothing prevents it, but it is unlikely that tenants would do this.
Think about new landlords. They are less likely to perform checks on tenants either.
Such practices tend to be adopted over time. As they say, practice makes perfect.
There is no dispute that the harms the City points to—a crisis of homelessness among the formerly incarcerated and landlords' use of criminal history as a proxy for race—"are real,
Formerly incarcerated homeless are the authors of their own misfortune; inflicting their criminality on the helpless isn't the answer. Screening based on criminal history will also have the effect of discriminating against mostly men, but nobody considers this sex discrimination; reality on the ground is that criminals are overwhelmingly male and disproportionately minority. This of course has nothing to do with men and minorities who don't choose to be criminals. If you're troubled by the mismatch, take it up with the criminals; they decide the demographics of crime when they choose to be criminals. No reason to inflict them on landlords.
Wouldn't these laws actually increase discrimination against law abiding black men because some landlords will just assume that black men are criminals when they can't see people's criminal histories?
This is a ridiculous argument, insofar as I don't believe that a state of permanent homelessness is optimal from the perspective of decreasing crime.
Do you believe that the disorder of homeless people on the streets is REALLY associated with lower crime rates??? Don't forget all the businesses that exist around homelessness whose value decreases.
I'm not advocating for permanent homelessness, but landlords willing to take on the risk or specialize in high risk tenants can worry about these tenants. A high risk tenant building might, for instance, be an apartment building with a live-in property manager and a round the clock security presence-- partly to protect the place from outsiders but also to monitor the tenants-- thus providing ex-cons with a place to live without trusting them with a whole house. Some old lady renting out her second home is manifestly not setup to deal with these considerations, but a large, professional landlord can choose to enter this market.
Failing that, California can construct more public housing rather than force landlords to assume the risk.
Your last paragraph is exactly right. The problem is legislation that is outsourcing risk to third parties (here, landlords). That makes their largesse “free” on the books but the costs will get imposed in other ways.
I don't disagree.
The real problem is just housing scarcity, which is to a large extent a self-inflicted problem.
If someone has a violent criminal record, especially one that involves an extensive criminal history, then maybe they shouldn't be living in an apartment building near their next victim.
Even if homelessness increases crime rates among ex-cons (which probably is the case), it’s not the duty of the landlord to reduce crime in society as a whole. The duty of a landlord is to reduce crime on their rental property. And excluding ex-cons is clearly a way to reduce crime on your rental property.
That is fine. But who cares?
We are looking at the bigger picture here, not the narrow interests of particular landlords or tenant.
This is the site that thinks any restrictions on landlords is slavery, so the reaction here really isn't surprising.
"Sites" don't think.
Neither do lefties.
Way to go! You beat up that straw man real good! You are such a brave soul! You are ready to move up to beating old ladies with arthritis!
Well, maybe not "slavery," but definitely a violation of the non-aggression principle. So let's stop it!
Whether the statutes are unconstitutional is probably debatable. But these statutes are definitely some of the most atrocious public policy I’ve ever heard of.
I wonder if the politicians pass this because they think they’ll get convicted of felonies after they leave office.
Of course, the politicians will never allow any felons except for themselves into their gated communities.
Has society either overrused criminal laws and made crimes of a lot of things that it would have been best not to have made crimes in the first place, or overpunished and continued to apply stigma to things that people should have been able to move on from and get back to their lives?
If the answer is yes, a lot of criminal records are an unnecessary weight on people’s shoulders. If the answer is no, then people with criminal records are dangerous and a present risk.
In addition, has the law tended to pressure people into not renting people to with even mild criminal records by threatening them with lawsuits if they do? Perhaps this pressure has been unnecessary and should be counteracted by pressure in the opposite direction.
My has been that society can do social change through legislation, and that major social change is best attempted locally first so results can be observed before imposing on a one-size-fits-all national basis.
We don’t really know the answer to many of these questions. We feel sure we know, our ideology drives us to believe and subjectively feel certainty. But that doesn’t mean we actually know. It may be necessary for some communities to try things to see if some of our past beliefs might have been wrong. Perhaps these experiments will flop and it will turn our conventional wisdom was right after all, but we don’t know that.
So I tend to agree that these laws should be treated like any other discrimination laws and rational basis should apply. I am skeptical of the intermediate scrutiny analysis. If obtaining public information like criminal records is protected by the First Amendment, then strict scrutiny applies, the prohibition is unconstitutional, and the analysis is irrelevant. But since inquiring about race, religion, etc. in an employment or rental context, has generally been prohibited, I am skeptical that First Amendment intermediate scrutiny prohibits a community from acting a law that simply happens to be somewhat stricter and more comprehensive than other communities. If a complete ban on discrimination on the basis of criminal records is constitution, and I think it is under simple rational basis, then prohibiting speech incidental to violating that ban is also generally constitutional, even if other communities don’t have such a ban or don’t have one that goes as far.
Ao it seems to me that either landlords have a right to obtain public records notwithstanding the ban, or inquiring about criminal records can be prohibited as crime facilitating speech because of the ban. Perhaps both apply and landlords can’t ask applicants but can obtain the records on their own. But either way, what other communities do strikes me as having nothing to do with the First Amendment analysis.
Do you have any empirical basis to suggest that lawsuits against landlords for renting to people with minor criminal records is common?
The question is, do landlords not rent to people for fear of lawsuits? It doesn’t matter if there actually are any lawsuits or not. People can be afraid of things that don’t even exist.
True.
But in that case, the solution is to address their fears about the present system with information, not change the legal system to prevent a problem that isn't occurring.
If people are afraid to rent out of fear of lawsuits, there is a problem. What people think the law might mean is something real even if there have been no lawsuits. Clarifying what the law does mean is an appropriate way a legislature can deal with people’s fears about what it might mean.
The answer isn't to prevent meritorious lawsuits based on false fears that such meritorious lawsuits are more common than they actually are.
We have been hearing the same line for years by people who purposely exaggerate problems in order to create a false impression.
We should find a way to correct the misinformation without rewarding the purveyors of the misinformation.
This is an asinine ruling from start to finish.
"The landlords do not have a fundamental right to exclude..."
Yes, they most certainly do have a right to exclude anyone, for any reason, that is not considered a 'protected class.' If being a convicted criminal is now a 'protected class,' then we might as well nuke the whole country and start over because that would indicate we've completely lost our way.
I don't care what the courts have to say on the matter. If it's my property, I'll assess the risks to my biggest investment based in part on whether or not someone is a criminal.
There's nothing they can do to prevent it, and there's no counter-argument that's going to change my mind. If I decide a convicted criminal is too much of a risk to a capital investment, then they aren't going to be a tenant of mine.
You, uh, should care what courts say in the matter.
Let's talk hypotheticals here:
Person A and B both apply to live in your property. They both meet every requirement you have regarding credit, income, etc. They are both equal in all areas reasonably related to renting your property to, except that one of them is a convicted felon for arson, or perhaps burglary.
If you can tell me why you shouldn't be allowed to decide against the felon because you'd prefer not to risk having your shit stolen, or burned to the ground (ironically, denying to an arsonist may increase that chance, but whatever...), then perhaps you can convince me that what the court has to say matters.
The most fundamental right of private property ownership is the right to decide who gets to be on your private property, and who is told to stay out. Risk assessment is part of that decision.
I highly doubt you or anyone else will succeed, but you're welcome to try.
My dude,I didn’t say shit about what should or should not be the law (below I at least half agree with you) only that you should probably follow it.
Your yelling about the most fundamental of rights is unbecoming; echoes of restrictive covenants and the like of years past. It’s not some deep value, it is and has been excepted by law a bunch.
There was no yelling in my post, lol
Until such a time that criminals become a protected class, choosing to discriminate against them in favor of a less-risky tenant is nothing more than common sense.
All one has to do is invent a different reason to say no.
Your rhetoric about the most fundamental right is not restricted by protected classes.
Again, you presume a thesis I do not have - reading below, you will see I am not against past crimes as a factor landlords can take into account, though I am not as one-sided as you are on the issue.
My issue is your 'I don’t care what the courts have to say' and 'The most fundamental right of private property ownership' hot takes. That's just self-righteous imperious nonsense and not required to advocate for your policy position.
Courts have upheld state discrimination since the 19th century. And it doesn’t matter whether landlords think that renting to someone black would devalue their property.
So far as the constitution is concerned, this isn’t any different.
In our modern legal world, the word "fundamental right" is a code word for a right that triggers strict scrutiny if infringed upon.
You are arguing that they have a legal right to exclude. No one disagrees. But the question here is whether that right would trigger strict scrutiny.
The basis of a property right is the right to exclude….
Correct. But the right to exclude itself can be regulated.
That it can be regulated when it ought not be regulated is the problem
The wisdom of legislation is generally a matter for legislators and ultimately the voters. But the quality of legislators given rhetorical and political antics they spend so much time focusing on might be a problem. It is hard to know for sure how good they actually are. But one concern I have is that the people who entertain us so much with their partisan antics (also known as politicians) may not actually be that good when it comes to dealing with the much less exciting details of actual governance.
It might be useful for a city or state to consider a somewhat more libertarian compromise: relieve landlords who want to rent to people with criminal records of liability for doing so, without requiring a non-discrimination mandate landlords. Let landlords who want to volunteer to be the guinea pigs.
Perhaps, in the pendulum swing between mandating keeping people with criminal records out (for fear of lawsuits) and prohibiting it as discrimination, the state should consider letting things rest for a bit in the in-between state where it’s neither forbidden nor required, and see how things go before moving further.
The crime committed should matter.
Shoplifting is different than rape. A one-time encounter with the law is different than an extensive criminal history.
So your solution to the problem of criminals having difficulty trying to rent is to deprive others of any right of compensation from those who intentionally expose them to danger that results in injury?
You people are incorrigible.
Well, people were deprived of their right to sue their landlords for deliberately exposing them to injury by renting to black people, and things seem to have come out OK. Maybe this will turn out to be similar. Maybe it won’t. Maybe your fear of people with criminal records will turn out to be similarly disproportionate. Maybe it won’t.
So your solution to the problem of criminals having difficulty trying to rent is to deprive others of any right of compensation from those who intentionally expose them to danger that results in injury because the law prevents them from doing anything to avoid such exposure.
Fixed it for you. Now do your snark.
Being a landlord is not easy from all the landlords I know.
I do come down on this being bad policy but not in the omg so obvious camp. Most ex cons are fine, and this sucks for them too. Subsidized housing at some point gets all separate but equal.
It’s a helluva problem, to balance those social equities.
"Most ex cons are fine, and this sucks for them too."
The assumption seems to be that landlords will view any criminal record at all as absolutely disqualifying, rather than using it as one more data point along with credit score, employment history, references, etc, to rationally identify good tenants.
That seems unlikely to me; my sense is that landlords are strongly focused on A)the rent getting paid on time and B)the place being left in good condition (and maybe to some degree C)length of stay). If Bob has a long ago shoplifting conviction but stable employment, a history of paying on time, and good references from previous landlords, while Chuck has never had as much as a parking ticket but has been evicted for non-payment and no steady job, I'd expect landlords to strongly prefer Bob.
IMHE, landlords are more interested in making money than trying to act as societal avengers for past misdeeds. Why do you expect them to act irrationally, at financial cost to themselves, to discriminate against good tenants who happen to have criminal records?
You assume a constrained market Im not sure is generally true. Given the market if you have a choice…
And THIS is the real problem.
You have to BUILD MORE HOUSING.
A lot of progressives actually deny this basic fact as they choose to strictly regulate new buildings to prevent “gentrification,” all of which tends to increase the price of housing, which is then passed onto consumers.
Opposition to “luxury units” by these progressives ignores the fact that the people inhabiting these luxury units will tend to inhabit non-luxury units (driving the price up for everyone else) if you don’t allow the luxury units to be built.
Instead of making it easier to build in general, a lot of these progressive cities have chosen a path of excessive zoning and excessive regulation that makes it excessively difficult to build. The result is that even units that aren’t very nice end up costing a lot of money to rent or buy. This situation makes it difficult for ex-cons AND everyone else to afford to live in these cities.
In fact, regulations about not discriminating against ex-cons are going to be mostly symbolic. A lot of ex-cons have a hard time earning money (if they have actually moved to a legitimate life), and that will tend to exclude them from the housing market in these cities just as effectively as their criminal records.
The real solution. Build more housing. Make tenants a valuable commodity by making tenants scarce while units are plentiful rather than vice-versa. Landlords only have market power to exclude tenants on arbitrary grounds when there is much more demand than supply.
Maybe Seattle should get busy solving the real problem making it more difficult for ex-cons to find housing. Work hard to encourage private developers to build more of it. Keep on working hard until housing prices come down. That is the real solution.
Also subsidies. And zoning fixes.
*Like*
"Most ex cons are fine..."
Recidivism rates are not what you apparently imagine them to be.
The cumulative five-year re-arrest rate of people exiting prison in 2012 was 71%.
The owner doesn't care about crimes committed by tenants as an abstract statistic. The owner cares if the tenant is going to reduce income or annoy the owner. If a tenant goes to jail that tenant may quit paying rent, and the owner will have to put some effort into clearing out the place. If a tenant beats up his girlfriend the neighbors might move out to avoid the noise.
I know a landlord who "inherited" two cats from a tenant who went to prison. He doesn't like cats.
I believe Krychek is saying that if the elderly widow *owns* the property, she should be allowed to be cautious about whom she shares it with. But if she's just renter scum, there's no way the landlord should be allowed to protect her from fellow tenants. She'll have to take her chances with the other peasants.
You just love to jump to conclusions, eh?
You just love to defend stupidity, eh?
Please, won't somebody (besides S_0) stand up for the people who think "probably" is a good adjective for assertions they pull out of thin air?
I don't recall defending that, but I will here:
This is the Internet. Speculation, properly couched, is fine and good. You can call people on it, if you don't think what they say is right.
But what I'm seeing is people coming in with hot takes in the other direction - the idea that ex-cons are automatically an unreasonable risk. That is also unsupported, and not being couched as speculation.
I don't recall him ever defending you, no.
What’s the name of the muscle that opens and closes the eyelid? Whatever it is, there must be a lot of physical therapy involved due to all the winking that landlords do after renting to someone with a shady past. I’m not doing well right now so maybe there’s a lot of money to be made as an eyelidstressorologist.
I'm deeply puzzled by this ruling. The judge's seem willing to accept these other regulations that impose different limitations on what kind of criminal records a landlord can get and when.
But as far as speech is concerned these seem equally restrictive. They prevent the landlord from asking about the tenants criminal record. The difference seems to be mainly in that they allow the landlord greater ability to use that information when evaluating the tenant.
What if the city had instead said the landlords could request whatever information they wanted after they'd either denied the applicant or rented to them? In terms of pure speech that seems more protective of the landlord than the ability to ask about the last three years. Only difference is they can't use it as a reason to deny the applicant...which the judge's upheld.
Just want to reiterate that the same constitutional principles of judicial restraint that ought to restrain liberal judges from striking down conservative moral rules and values they think outmoded should also restrain conservative judges from striking down progressive experiments they think unwise. The Seattle City Council might be wrong in their thinking. They might be very wrong. But it is up to them and their voters to find out if they are wrong or not.
As the late Chief Justice Rehnquist occassionally mentioned, one of the principles behind judicial restraint is ancient skepticism. We are wired to think we know more about the world than we really do, and to feel more certainty about our opinions than we really have. We actually don’t know nearly as much as we think we do. Modern thinking has tended to support this idea. Human society is very complex, and human history is very far from the exact science Marxists and others once thought it was. Our ability to predict the future just isn’t very impressive, and not nearly as great as we think it is.
Federal republicanism permits states and localities to serve as laboratories to try out new ideas while their neighbors get to stick with the tried and true and see what happens. Perhaps the experimenters will be right and the tried will turn out not to be so true. Perhaps the new way will flop. Unless an explicit constitutional right is implicated, none of this is any of the judiciary’s business. It is up to legislatures and voters, not courts, to muddle through and find out as best they can.
This is idiotic. And it's pretty much what John Roberts said in his majority opinion in NFIB v. Sebelius: "It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices." You're both wrong. It is very much the courts' job to strike down legislation that violates our constitutional rights (such as the right to property).
A law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of criminal records no more violates any right to property than a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race. Constitutionally there’s no difference between the two laws. It’s long been considered constitutional to prohibit racial discrimination in rentals. So the same outcome should occur here. What kinds of distinctions are “discrimination” that should be outlawed and what should be tolerated (or encouraged or even required) by the law is generally speaking a political question, not a constitutional one.
One might be good policy and other bad. But whether that’s so is also a political issue, not a constitutional one. It’s completely irrelevant to your constitutional property rights. Believing and feeling something strongly doesn’t turn it into a constitutional right. I say this to liberals. I say it to conservatives too.
Hmmm... Isn't the "right to exclude persons from [one's] property" the very core of the concept of "private property"? Either I or these judges are crazy...
The courts have consistently rejected this view since the 19th century. Until the mid-20th century they struck down federal anti-discrimination laws on grounds this was outside the scope of federal power. But a number of states passed state anti-discrimination laws, and these were consistently upheld.
“Property” no more includes a right to discriminate than “liberty” includes a right to an abortion. Your outrage here is no different from liberals’ outrage over abortion. In both cases, the issue isn’t what you or judges believe things ought to be. The question is what the scope of the right has historically been and what society has historically been permitted to regulate. Society has never had absolute laissez-faire just as it has never had absolute libertinism. And the constitution no more imposes laissez-faire with respect to property than it imposes libertinism with respect to liberty.
Apart from what ReaderY said, remember that none of these laws require the owner to rent the property. If he wants to live in the unit(s) himself, or have his family live there free, nothing in the law requires him to do otherwise.
Once he decides to enter the rental market, however, then the law regulates how he rents it. Not just anti-discrimination, either. Many jurisdictions require a landlord to provide a working refrigerator, stove and air conditioner, for example. There is no "right" to let you property without these.
When Massachusetts had rent control some owners were prohibited from moving into their own houses. The units had to be kept on the market as rentals.
The hair being split in this decision is like the claim that it is illegal to ask a women if she is married in a job interview. I have never seen a reliable source for that claim. It may be illegal to act on that information, which is not the same as the question itself being illegal.
I remember somebody almost going there when we took a candidate out for lunch. The candidate was from out of town and would have to move to take the job. The questioner was wondering if he was half of a couple where both people needed to find a job in the new town. A coworker told him that question was off limits because he might inadvertently discover the candidate was gay.
Credit checks and criminal background checks directly bear on risk. If a landlord is forbidden to use these tools, he will use appearance (the guy looks dangerous) and race. Forbidding these tools directly increases racial selectivity. Same reason that companies like job fairs over cv's.