The Volokh Conspiracy
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Did You Lie About COVID During The Pandemic?
Parents were often not truthful about whether their children were vaccinated or needed to quarantine.
The pandemic ushered in a wave of difficult ethical choices. In the early days, there were shortages of N-95 masks, ventilators, and certain forms of treatment. How would those scarce resources be rationed? What about "essential" workers who were immunocompromised? Could they be forced to work? And later, there were different ways in which the vaccines were distributed. The elderly and the immunocompromised generally went first. But people with certain comorbidities could jump the line. And in some places, governments administered vaccines based on racial preferences (or some proxy like zip code).
Throughout this process, people had perverse incentives to lie. For example, a person could lie or exaggerate about the extent to which she was immunocompromised. That term was broadly understood. And there was no real way of linking a particular health condition to COVID. A person who did not want to work in a crowded workplace had an incentive to embellish a health condition. There were similar perverse incentives for declaring "comorbidities." Take "obesity" for example. Many people who would not generally call themselves "obese" would promptly check that box if it helped them get a vaccine quicker. There is also the issue of bribery. I know that people paid money under the table to get the vaccines quicker. Finally, there is the issue of testing and quarantining. We were all on the honor system. A person could conceal her symptoms, or chalk a cough up to allergies. There was no way to track these sorts of things.
A recent paper published by Journal of American Medical Association considers how often parents lied about COVID during the pandemic. The Hill summarizes the results:
In a survey of 580 parents with children under the age of 18, about 26 percent reported that they misrepresented or lied about their children's COVID-19 status, according to a study published Monday in the journal JAMA Network Open.
Out of seven behaviors related to adherence to public health guidelines, the most common behaviors were not informing someone who spent time with their child that they suspected or knew that their child had COVID-19, at 24 percent of respondents, and allowing their child to break quarantine, at about 21 percent of respondents.
About 19 percent of respondents did not get their child tested for the coronavirus when they thought their child might have COVID-19.
Other behaviors included:
- Stating that their child was older than they were so that they could get vaccinated (9.7 percent of respondents)
- Saying that their child was vaccinated when they were not (10.1 percent)
- Saying their child was not vaccinated when they were (12.2 percent)
- And saying that their child did not need to quarantine when they actually did need to (16.4 percent)
These numbers cut in both directions. Roughly the same percentage of parents lied to get their children vaccinated, as parents who lied so their children would not have to get vaccinated.
Perhaps these parents justified the lie, in the interest of protecting the health of their children--either because they believed the vaccine would help or hurt their child. Or they lied about quarantining to avoid having to keep their children out of social circles. At least in this limited regard, truth was sacrificed during the pandemic. I suspect these sorts of lies can be extrapolated to wide ranges of behavior during these unsettled times.
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Without spending much time recreating the details, I can quite cheerfully say that any COVID-related lies I may have told the powers that be were dwarfed by the COVID-related lies the powers that be told me. But the latter is not really conducive to the sort of polling performed here, even were anyone inclined to try.
A philosophy professor once raised the ethical issues involved if you knew there were Jews hiding in the building and the Gestapo asked you if any Jews were hiding in the building.
He was a bit taken aback by my response:
Pause for a second, look very closely at the Gestapo leader, and then go to the junior Gestapo guys and ask "why are you guys taking orders from a Jew?" "You know he's a Jew, don't you?" "Can't you see it -- he's got 'Jew' written all over him...."
So you send a Gestapo officer to the gas chamber. And....?
Who the fuck did you look at?
There was no Gestapo leader in your presence. It was a *hypothetical.*
Why are you even pretending to take seriously a Dr. Ed anecdote that obviously never happened?
As was my answer.
This is internet satire levels of clearly untrue.
It’s also a shit answer to the ethics based hypothetical.
Lying to sow dissent amongst oppressors is ethically fine with me and a suitable answer for this question, IMO.
Come on - the point was to interrogate your own ethical precepts, not to write some nonsense where you are a cleverest hero.
Oh, I know how this story goes! The prof was dumbstruck by your superior intellect, instantly quit his job in humiliation, and the dean asked you to teach the rest of the class. And all the students stood up and cheered.
Not exactly....
Isn't that pretty typical for an undergrad class?
I picture Dr. Ed 2 as the narrator in Charlie Daniels' "Uneasy Rider". "Well you may not know it but this man's a spy. He's an undercover agent for the FBI. He's been sent down here to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan."
Since we're raising stupid Hypothetical questions that never really happened (yeah, you really took a class where that happened, you want a story that really happened??
in 7th Grade, at Blair Middle School (Intergrated Pubic Screw-el in No-fuck Vagina), my homeroom teacher, "Mr. Rapp" (his real name, had an HR Haldeman hair cut) asked "Andre" (not his real name, did not have an HR Haldeman hair cut) if he would mind extinguishing his "Blunt"
"Andre" replied "Fuck you Mother fucka!!!!"
and kept smoking his blunt.
In Andre's defense "Home Room" was only for 10 minutes for the purpose of taking roll and he'd been smoking blunts every morning for weeks. (at that school, I wanted to smoke a blunt every morning)
See, THAT's how to tell a story that really happened,
Frank
How about giving a fake phone number to the contact tracer, or lying to General Mill's Minions about interstate travel?
They lie, we lie.
It's all the same, except their lies killed hundreds of thousands, and deprived millions of education.
The libertarian take is so many were deprived of government schools!
The schools their tax dollars paid for
Is that why you're the way you are?
The difference is that they lied because they hate you or view you as a deplorable.
If you lied it was in self defense.
The real question is how many lies were told as the Right remade itself into America’s anti-vaxx party. Obviously, this entails a huge number of mistruths, misinformation, and crude propaganda spread across the entire breadth of the country. You might benefit from focusing on limited individual areas – say lying by the anti-vaxx wack-job DeSantis named Florida Surgeon General after he (DeSantis) decided campaigning against vaccinations was another stunt to appeal to the GOP’s base.
Here’s another tally we’ll eventually see : How many thousands needlessly died because of the Right’s new anti-vaxx play toy? Because it was thousands – probably tens-of-thousands. That’s the inevitable result given (a) the vaccine’s protection against serious illness & death, and (b) the 25-30% difference in vaccination rates by political party.
It shouldn’t be too hard for a statistic wiz to figure that number. Hell, do’em both: The Right’s lies for the crudest of political motives and the pointless deaths that resulted….
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/22/florida-joe-ladapo-investigated-covid-report-00084075
Who is the worst.
The people that resisted a "vaccine" created in record time with a fraction of the trials
Or the Govt that claimed a shot that did not prevent the spread, or contraction of the virus, was a vaccine?
Covid has contractions? Huh. I thought it reproduced virally......
I'd argue that while the vaccine was important (especially initially), it wasn't all mighty. It reduced, but did not eliminate the chance of catching COVID.
And that certain people used "vaccination" as a means to enforce political orthodoxy on others, while strongly overstating what it did. And continue to do so.
Lori Lightfoot was one of them.
'as a means to enforce political orthodoxy'
You mean everyone treated culture war contrarions with the contempt they deserve, and you found out you were a more insular self-selecting group than you thought you were.
I'll go with the pathologically stupid people that continue to insist a vaccine is a force field.
The first, because they were not only lying, but lying stupidly. The second is typical of the stupid lies you tell.
So, how many people did die from not getting vaccinated? How many of those didn't get vaccinated because of "The Right"? What studies are you using to determine the vaccination rates, causes, and death rates? Surely you aren't just spreading mistruths, misinformation, and crude anti-Right propaganda...
Also, why did you try to smear someone over a 'complaint' that was apparently so serious, the people making the complaint couldn't be bothered to tell what supposedly happened when investigators came asking, as your own link clearly stated?
(1) Covid vaccinations are hugely successful at reducing the rates of serious illness, long-term covid, hospitalization, and death.
(2) The Right’s anti-vaxx fearmongering, lies and agitprop were hugely successful at suppressing vaccination rates among the right-wing populace.
(3) Pointless, needless unnecessary death resulted. All because the Right’s leadership sought a few percentage points polling gain by stoking vaccination fear. If they hadn’t taken this sleazy low road, vaccination rates on the Right wouldn’t have been 25-30% lower than normal people.
(4) A statistical study that quantifies these facts is inevitable. You should prepare yourself for it.
I would like to see #4, grb. Objective, verifiable data.
Personally IMHO, co-morbidities and age had a lot more influence on outcomes as opposed to getting the mRNA experimental vaccine.
Indeed, it likely did.
It's pretty clear that co-morbidities and age were most of it. There was also a pretty substantial amount of protection if you'd previously gotten SARS, I understand, and some from recent infections with Coronavirus strains of the common cold. And some dependence on nutritional status.
But the vaccine was certainly helpful if you were in a high risk category. If you were in a very low risk category, like a healthy child, it seems to have not been worth it.
Here's some data on the age related mortality. Note that in the 5-17 bracket, virtually all of the serious cases were children with serious co-morbidities. If you were a healthy child, for all practical purposes there wasn't a pandemic going on.
concur that non covid health issues were the highest factor in covid deaths.
I would like to have run the numbers for co-morbilities / by age group/ by state. However, that data is difficult to obtain in a manner that is consistent across the various jurisdictions.
I ran the data for per capita deaths in the 65+ age group. As expected the per capita death rate was remarkably similar across every state (and every county that i did the computation). 43 of the states fell within a very narrow band with less than 2% difference between the worst and the best. 5 states were well below the median (HI, VT, NH, ME & WA) 2 states were well above the median NY & NJ.
All the claims about republicans being anti vax, causing excess deaths etc is pure partisan BS. If the claims were valid, then there would be a significant delta in the death rates - There simply isnt.
'concur that non covid health issues were the highest factor in covid deaths.
I would like to have run the numbers for co-morbilities / by age group/ by state.'
In other words, that is at best a hypothesis.
'There was also a pretty substantial amount of protection if you’d previously gotten SARS'
Except this was not actually the case, given the numbers that contracted it multiple times (like me.)
'there wasn’t a pandemic going on.'
Do you not understand what a pandemic is? A pandemic is a disease that spreads rapidly through populations. If a group within the population less vulnerable to the disease itself acts like there isn't a pandemic going on, they are spreading the disease.
It's also true that whether you get in a car accident or not has a lot more influence of dying while driving than whether the car has airbags. Despite this fact, you'd be really stupid to prefer a car with no airbags.
Airbags dont make nearly as much difference as advertised.
The most recent data that I have seen shows wearing seat belts reduce fatalities by approx 41-44% while airbags and seat belts reduce fatalities by approx 43-46%. The additional benefit is rather small. though obviously big benefit with airbags and no seat belt. Granted the data i mentioned is from a study that is 7-10 years old.
You can replace the word "airbag" with "seat belt" in my previous post and the point still stands.
(FWIW, though, I think, e.g., side airbags provide significantly different protection than seat belts.)
"(1) Covid vaccinations are hugely successful at reducing the rates of serious illness, long-term covid, hospitalization, and death."
None of that is true. Proving it "reduced rates of serious illness, etc" is a counter-factual at best, something definitively unprovable.
"(2) The Right’s anti-vaxx fearmongering, lies and agitprop were hugely successful at suppressing vaccination rates among the right-wing populace."
Measuring by counties, ignoring that zero counties are 100% one party or the other, is also of, at best, spurious value.
And the vaccine's usefulness is already rather low, in spite of public officials lying blatantly about it (Biden's asinine "This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated" was a biggie).
"(3) Pointless, needless unnecessary death resulted. All because the Right’s leadership sought a few percentage points polling gain by stoking vaccination fear. If they hadn’t taken this sleazy low road, vaccination rates on the Right wouldn’t have been 25-30% lower than normal people."
Biden has had roughly triple the death rate of Trump in spite of knowledge of how to treat the disease and vaccines. Perhaps the issue is his leadership?
"(4) A statistical study that quantifies these facts is inevitable. You should prepare yourself for it."
Let's wait for that to occur, OK?
Proving it “reduced rates of serious illness, etc” is a counter-factual at best, something definitively unprovable.
We have plenty of dumbasses who volunteered to be controls.
Measuring by counties, ignoring that zero counties are 100% one party or the other, is also of, at best, spurious value.
Are you saying it's possible that the Republican fearmongering bullshit may not have had a partisan effect on who got the vaccine?! I tend to ask for proof of conventional wisdom, but this is ridiculous.
And the vaccine’s usefulness is already rather low
Wrong.
Biden has had roughly triple the death rate of Trump in spite of knowledge of how to treat the disease and vaccines. Perhaps the issue is his leadership?
Holy shit this is stupid as fuck. You don't get to ignore time Covid was going. You started out well, but then you devolved into brainless partisanship par excellence.
Sarcastro - "Measuring by counties, ignoring that zero counties are 100% one party or the other, is also of, at best, spurious value.
"Are you saying it’s possible that the Republican fearmongering bullshit may not have had a partisan effect on who got the vaccine?! "
Sarcastro - one of the best metrics is the per capita death rates by age group. The per capita death rates in the 65+ age group (where approx 80-85% deaths occurred) was remarkably similar across most every jurisdiction irrespective of party affiliation.
Nice talking point - though your partisan comment doesnt hold water.
Below is the link to a Kaiser Family Foundation study, named “COVID-19 Mortality Preventable by Vaccines”
Money quote :
“In this analysis, we estimate the number of adult deaths that could have been prevented by timely vaccination. We find that approximately 234,000 deaths since June 2021 could have been prevented with primary series vaccination. These vaccine-preventable deaths represent 60% of all adult COVID-19 deaths since June 2021, and a quarter (24%) of the nearly 1 million COVID-19 deaths since the pandemic began.”
All that’s left is to update the pointless death tally and add a statistical model to determine how many fathers, wives, sons, brothers & sisters died needlessly because the Right found profit in going anti-vaxx.
But I understand the desperate denials of Joe_dallas. For someone like him, the whole anti-vaccination jihad was just a fun way to get another Culture War Merit Badge. That some people paid a terrible price over this bullshit lark must trouble even him. This just illustrates why the Right prefers to sic its mob of rabid sheep on issues of little-or-no reality, like “Critical Race Theory in the public schools” or the “danger to the nation posed by trans people”. It’s much simpler to vent their obedient rage on a fantasy target. More entertaining too, like fans hooting and cheering at a WWE event have a better time than those stuck at a stodgy real wrestling match.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/#COVID-19%20deaths%20among%20unvaccinated%20adults%20that%20likely%20could%20have%20been%20prevented%20with%20vaccinations,%20June%202021-March%202022
So, you're saying that Trump saved a hell of a lot of lives by pushing through vaccine development and shutting down all the bureaucratic efforts to slow it?
YES! He absolutely deserves credit for that. Pity he squandered it by pandering to his paranoid anti-vaxx base and letting his corrupt son-in-law run the federal relief.
Basically Trump respected our federalist system, and accepted that the states were actually responsible for most of the response. You contrast that with an assumed benign dictator running roughshod over the states, and blame Trump for not being the dictator you routinely accused him of being.
I'm not sure the pandemic respected your notion of the federalist system, but I suspect Trump was actually incompetent rather than respectful.
Brett Bellmore : “So, you’re saying that Trump saved a hell of a lot of lives”
Sure. In the past, I’ve posted a timeline showing all the vaccine development measures and appropriated monies before Trump announced Warp Speed, but don’t bother anymore. That’s churlish & niggling; Trump deserves credit where credit is due.
It’s also inevitable anyway. The person in office gets the credit/blame regardless. Take Biden and Afghanistan as an example: Trump gave away the country for nothing except pretty words from the Taliban; withdrew most U.S. forces and left the remainder an easy target – hostage to the pledge they’d soon be withdrawn. Biden completed the final step and gets the blame for the mess he inherited. I’ve heard two objections to tactical / strategic decisions on the pullout and neither are persuasive. In the end, Biden was in the chair so gets the blame. That’s life.
However, this about Trump and the vaccine: The Right’s anti-vaxx crusade is a seamless extension of Trump’s playbook on covid. It was Trump who sneered at the seriousness of the disease, promoted quack cures, scorned preventive measures, put a political bullseye on healthcare officials, told people to see covid statistics as lies, and treated the pandemic as a political plaything, not a health emergency. The anti-vaxx movement follows his examples in their lies and callous irresponsibility even if Trump himself never took that final step.
grb 28 mins ago (edited)
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Below is the link to a Kaiser Family Foundation study, named “COVID-19 Mortality Preventable by Vaccines”
Money quote :
“In this analysis, we estimate the number of adult deaths that could have been prevented by timely vaccination. We find that approximately 234,000 deaths since June 2021 could have been prevented with primary series vaccination. These vaccine-preventable deaths represent 60% of all adult COVID-19 deaths since June 2021, and a quarter (24%) of the nearly 1 million COVID-19 deaths since the pandemic began.”
GRB
I would suggest you demonstrate math skills. Their analysis is not credible. In order for the math to work in their analysis, you have to assume that the per capita death rate for the "unvaxed" jumped 4-6X. become familiar with the underlying data so that you are not so easily fooled by sloppy partisan studies.
A hint to assist you in ascertaining the validity of the Kaiser study. #1 - over 65+ age group is where 80+% of the deaths occurred. That is also the age group that is 80+% vaxed.
Basic math simply doesnt support such a conclusion.
OK, let’s do Scientific America this time.
Money quote:
“Another way to think about the protection vaccination provides is to compare the ratios of death rates among the vaccinated and unvaccinated. For the month of March, “unvaccinated people 12 years and older had 17 times the rate of COVID-associated deaths, compared to people vaccinated with a primary series and a booster dose,” says Commissioned Corps of the U.S. Public Health Service commander Heather Scobie, deputy team lead for surveillance and analytics at the CDC’s Epidemiology Task Force.* “Unvaccinated people had eight times the rate of death as compared to people who only had a primary series,” suggesting that boosters increase the level of protection.
It is also important to consider the ages of those who are dying. People 65 and older make up the group that is both the most likely to be vaccinated (and boosted) and the most likely to die of COVID. (Being older is one of the biggest risk factors for severe COVID because the immune system weakens with age.) So when you separate the age groups, it becomes even clearer that vaccination reduces the risk of death. And because immune protection from vaccination wanes with time, and because some older people do not mount a good immune response to the primary series, being boosted reduces that risk even further.”
There is a mountain of evidence that proves covid vaccines reduced death rates by a large degree. I can just keep posting that evidence, example after example, after each one of your weaseling responses. To be fair, your flailing desperation does you a small degree of credit. It shows you understand the shame and guilt behind your bullshit games on vaccines. You only need take the next step and deal with it honestly. Why not give that a try?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/
The math works fine. You'd need a vaccine that was 93% effective at preventing death to get that result taking your numbers at face value. That's a bit high relative to real-world numbers, but factors like survivorship bias (you can't get vaccinated if you already died of Covid) probably explain the difference.
States Ranked by Age-Adjusted COVID Deaths: Explore the data
Look at that graph of death vs "stringency"; Once you adjust for Obesity, age, and over 65 vax status, the correlation between "stringency" (Public policy such as lockdowns) and death was R^2=0.03. Phenomenally uncorrelated!
Interestingly, even after adjusting for the 'big three', there's still a strong correlation between Gini index and death from Covid. The correlation with poverty, OTOH, was much smaller. Apparently it wasn't too bad living in a poor area so long as everybody was poor...
But, here's the politics:
Age adjusted, Trump vote has a 0.3 correlation with deaths.
Obesity and age adjusted? Drops to 0.036. IOW, mostly it was due to Trump voters being fat...
Vaxed at 65+ and age adjusted? ) Drops to 0.026.
All three together? 0.001, as close to no correlation as you could possibly ask for.
brett - thanks for the link
I will take a detailed look
Or you could try The Lancet, who did a world-wide study on the effect of covid vaccines. The money quote from the summary:
"Based on official reported COVID-19 deaths, we estimated that vaccinations prevented 14·4 million (95% credible interval [Crl] 13·7–15·9) deaths from COVID-19 in 185 countries and territories between Dec 8, 2020, and Dec 8, 2021."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00320-6/fulltext
Here's a CDC study from February of this year. Money quote:
"Recipients of the bivalent (two-strain) COVID-19 vaccine booster were 14 times less likely to die of Omicron BA.4/BA.5 infections than their unvaccinated peers and 5 times less likely to die than recipients of the monovalent (single-strain) booster, particularly among older people, finds a study today in Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report."
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/covid-deaths-5-fold-lower-after-bivalent-vs-monovalent-booster
GRB - a 2.5 month study period
Joe_dallas : “I will take a detailed look”
After you do that, and after you review the studies from the Kaiser Family Foundation, Scientific America, CDC and Lancet (all determining the exact opposite of what you claim to believe), I’ve got another chore for ya:
Everybody has found covid vaccines greatly reduce the rates of serious illness and death. But surely you can produce one person who claims otherwise. But who? And what is that person’s standing? Billy Bob’s Backwoods MAGA Blog just won’t cut it.
(Bonus points if you find someone other than the headcase DeSantis named Florida Surgeon General. Remember, the only reason he appointed the flake was to excite the easily-duped like you)
If you're graphically-minded like me, nothing beats a chart. This one is CDC data and is named:
"United States: COVID-19 Weekly Death Rate by Vaccination Status, All Ages"
You should take a look!
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status?country=~All+ages
The great state of Texas found covid vaccinations greatly reduce the risk of death. Their Health and Human Services Department has a running dashboard on the subject. The numbers they track are stark and their conclusion simple:
"All authorized COVID-19 vaccines in the United States are highly effective at protecting people from getting sick or severely ill with COVID-19"
If a yahoo like Governor Abbot can face the truth, why can't you?
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/covid-19-coronavirus-disease-2019/covid-19-vaccine-information/covid-19-cases-deaths
Yes, they are highly effective, for people at significant risk. Older people, people with co-morbidities. The younger you get, the less important getting the vaccine was, because the lower your risk from contracting Covid. In the 5-17 age bracket, basically nobody who didn't suffer from a serious co-morbidity died of Covid.
They're NOT highly effective for people who had already had Covid, they're just redundant.
Two objectionable things they did:
1) They refused to acknowledge the reality of natural immunity, demanding that people who'd had Covid get vaccinated. You know why? Because they could track vaccinations easier than positive tests, it was purely bureaucratic convenience.
2) They keep suggesting that little kids, who least need to get vaccinated, and for whom the risk benefit ratio is worst, get the shot.
Money quote from The Lancet :
"It is becoming clear that hybrid immunity, that is immunity provided by a combination of infection and vaccination, provides better protection against subsequent COVID-19 than either vaccination or infection alone – higher antibody levels, less frequent and less severe infection. However, the picture is complex due to a chequered pattern of immunity in the population. People differ not only in their history of infection timing and infecting variant, but also in the type of vaccine they received, how many doses and finally, how well their immune system responded."
Now, lets hear your source disparaging hybrid immunity
(if you have one.....)
JAMA. Money quote :
A recent systematic review of studies found that people who have been vaccinated against COVID-19 and have had a previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, known as having hybrid immunity, have better protection against the Omicron variant than those with only a previous infection. The effectiveness of hybrid immunity against hospital admission or severe disease was 97% at 12 months compared with 75% after infection alone. Effectiveness against reinfection was 42% for hybrid immunity and 25% for previous infection at 12 months.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2801207
I confess to double-dipping. This references the same study as above. Quote:
“A review and meta-regression of 26 studies shows that hybrid SARS-CoV-2 immunity provides the highest level of protection against the Omicron variant, researchers reported yesterday in The Lancet Infectious Diseases. The authors say the finding of the study, the first to estimate the durability of protection conferred by hybrid immunity—the antibody response developed through a combination of SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination—could provide guidance on vaccine timing at both the individual and public health level.”
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/review-finds-hybrid-immunity-provides-best-protection-against-omicron
Here's a study that hits close to home, published by the Yale School of Public Health in collaboration with the National Bureau of Economic Research. Money quote:
"A team of Yale researchers has found that Republican voters in two U.S. states had more excess deaths than Democratic voters after vaccines for COVID-19 became widely available to counter the disease. The discrepancy didn’t exist prior to the vaccines."
“The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available,” the authors said in the study."
https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/
Another Scientific America analysis, titled "Who Is Dying from COVID, Now and Why"
Money quote:
"Being unvaccinated is still a major risk factor for dying from COVID. In August 2022 unvaccinated people died at six times the rate of those who got at least the primary series of the vaccine, according to the CDC. And unvaccinated people age 50 and older were 12 times more likely to die than vaccinated and double-boosted peers."
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/who-is-dying-from-covid-now-and-why/
Ah, so you admit you don't have any data, thank you.
As it happens, #1 is mostly true. "Long COVID" isn't a thing any more than "long flu" or "long broken leg", and the studies that have attempted to find it have failed, but the rest is true.
#2 is questionable, is part of the essential core of your claim, and you provide no evidence to back it up. Want to try again?
#3 is your failed telepathy in action again, and no, "the Right" does not have "25-30%" lower vaccination rates. You don't even find a gap that large when you compare upper-class whites in urban areas to lower-class rural minorities (the largest gap). At least, according to Lancet peer reviewed studies (most recent published Dec 2022). I certainly hope you are pretending to look at state level data... economic status, race, and religion are the three big factors, vastly outweighing political alignment.
And #4 is you admitting that you don't know of any studies of what you claimed, showing that you knew your were lying when you made your statements in the first place.
What a mess of a response! I won’t bother with your take on long covid except to say you’re alone in dismissing it out of hand. After that, pure comedy : The Right’s anti-vaxx jihad has been loud, unrelenting, ubiquitous across the entire media/political front, and never-ever subtle. To pretend you haven’t seen it & therefore require “proof” is lying at the crudest level.
I guess you feel entitled given the theme of the OP, but no one is fooled. It’s funny how often the lazy, disingenuous, and insecure in this forum use a demand for “proof” as easy-out from their indefensible position. Usually that’s just kabuki theater obvious to all, as is the case here.
As for vaccination rates, below is a snapshot in time. Money quote:
“Monthly polling from the Kaiser Family Foundation finds that for every unvaccinated Democrat or Democratic-leaning independent, there are about three unvaccinated Republicans or Republican-leaning independents. That’s in a population where each political group is about evenly represented nationally — and it’s despite the two groups being about evenly represented among the unvaccinated back in April.”
You can find many other accounts of the wide gap between Right and Left on unvaccinated and vaccinated. It’s always there and the Right is always trailing far behind. Maybe it’s tightened since the three-to-one ratio above, but please remember : People were needlessly dying while our new anti-vaxx community played catch-up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/16/party-divide-vaccination/
And then there’s your clownish accusation of lying. In my first comment I said an accounting was inevitable, as it it. When you whore politically by persuading your dupe-followers to be anti-vaxx and anti-vaxx results in pointless death, pointless death is the result. In every comment I’ve said the same thing: That simple undeniable, obvious fact will eventually be quantified. And the result will be an ugly indefensible spectacle.
So no lie. But, in fact, there’s a preview of coming attractions just a few comments above – where I note a study by the Yale School of Public Health in collaboration with the National Bureau of Economic Research. Might as well quote it again here:
“A team of Yale researchers has found that Republican voters in two U.S. states had more excess deaths than Democratic voters after vaccines for COVID-19 became widely available to counter the disease. The discrepancy didn’t exist prior to the vaccines.”
“The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available,” the authors said in the study.”
Now, picture that study multiplied a hundred-fold and made broader and more comprehensive. All your Culture War fun & games with vaccines are going to look pretty sicko then, don’t ya think?
Dismissing studies about long COVID because you don't like them isn't logical, then trying to use a "study" from mid 2021 to oppose one published in Lancet in December 2022, isn't exactly the act of someone presenting an honest argument. There are other studies, too, ranging from Pubmed to the International Journal of Environmental And Public Health. I cited Lancet, because it's the best regarded - certainly better than a blog post citing a poll.
And you claimed a bunch of things were true, then admitted you don't have any data for them - but you're sure it will come! Well, that's great, but claiming that something is true BEFORE you have evidence it is true is, again, not the act of an honest person.
And, most distinctly, your absurd claim that "the Right" has a vaccination rate 25-30% lower than "normal people" is just false. A deliberate, repeated, falsehood. One might even call it a lie.
Do you count the tens of thousands elderly that died because Democrat governors sent covid patients to their nursing homes?
Did you learn that from Tucker Carlson or from the Pillow Guy?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/criminal-charges-dismissed-leaders-holyoke-soldiers-home-deadly/story?id=81337866
I would not admit, personally, I did not know something that was well-known at the time and has not been disproven yet.
But you do you.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/andrew-cuomo-nursing-home-deaths.html
Cum/Money Shot "In January, New York’s attorney general said the administration had undercounted nursing home deaths by several thousand. Mr. Cuomo later acknowledged as much, blaming the lower figure on fears that the Trump administration would use the data as a political weapon."
and if you've got more than the attention span of a Newt,
More than 172,000 residents and employees of nursing homes and long-term care facilities have died of complications from Covid-19 in the United States, according to a Times analysis. New York leads all states in such deaths, with more than 15,000 so far.
By the time the Health Department issued its July report, Mr. Cuomo had been under fire over nursing homes for months. The criticism came mostly from Republican lawmakers, who suggested his administration was directly responsible for the high death toll.
At issue was a policy issued in March 2020 that effectively ordered nursing homes to take back residents who had been discharged from hospitals after being treated for Covid-19. The goal was to keep virus patients from overwhelming hospitals, a step other states also took.
Mr. Cuomo’s critics said the order had fueled the spread of the virus in nursing homes. He disputed the accusation.
Frank
grb 14 hours ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
"Here’s another tally we’ll eventually see : How many thousands needlessly died because of the Right’s new anti-vaxx play toy? Because it was thousands – probably tens-of-thousands. That’s the inevitable result given (a) the vaccine’s protection against serious illness & death, and (b) the 25-30% difference in vaccination rates by political party"
GRB - another bogus partisan talking point
The per capita death rates by age group are remarkably similar across every state and county irrespective of political affiliation.
As I recall, once you controlled for age, weight, and vaccination status, death rates had basically no relationship to anything else. (On a state level, anyway.) Not politics, lockdowns, mask wearing, you name it.
Some states did better than others, but it was mostly down to the age and weight of the people living there, NOT public policy.
If this is true, then that means the federal response was inadequate which, unfortuntely, I think is correct. Partly that is, of course, the fact that pandemic preperation wasn't taken seriously, but there is a question as to how much the right-wing anti-vaxx conspiracy-hysteria anti-public-health-response contributed to further stymying the national response.
No, Nige, it does NOT mean the federal response was inadequate. It means that most of the measures being rolled out were utterly irrelevant in medical terms, even if they were pretty efficient at tanking the economy.
The federal government isn't responsible for the age profile in a state, and aside from pushing nutritional fiction through the USDA's food pyramid, isn't responsible for obesity, either. The feds did what they were responsible for doing: Interdicting carriers at the border, (For which they got a lot of grief.) and getting a vaccine out as quickly as possible. And note that death rates WERE correlated with vaccination status, though only strongly for people over 65. So getting that vaccine available was important.
What did you want them to do, march people who wouldn't accept the vaccine into concentration camps? Screw that!
Yes, there's federal blame. There's no good reason progress in mRNA vaccines should have stopped after SARS. But that happened before Trump, didn't it? And it sure didn't help that the CDC monopolized testing in the US, and screwed up their tests. Trump did something about that, when it came to light.
There's no good reason for not updating the vaccine, and instead just doubling down on demanding people take more and more doses of an increasingly obsolete vaccine. But that was Biden; Operation Warp Speed ejected the warp core and dropped to sublight as soon as he took office.
No, I think, aside from his nasty habit of blue skying over a live mike, Trump did pretty well. I'm kind of embarrassed at the level of vax denial on the right, though, even if the CDC earned every bit of distrust it's getting now.
Pretty much all actual measures worked, though, when properly implemented. Masks have been shown to reduce spread, the vaccines have been shown to reduce spread and severity, lockdowns reduced the speed of the infections so that already-overwhelmed hospitals weren't put under even more pressure. However, those aren't pandemic preperation measures, they're last minute efforts at damage control.
'an increasingly obsolete vaccine.'
Lots of studies show the continuing effectiveness of the vaccines.
'What did you want them to do, march people who wouldn’t accept the vaccine into concentration camps?'
The underlying note of hysteria on the right is ubiquitous.
'though, even if the CDC earned every bit of distrust it’s getting now.'
For all CDC's failings, it's the people who exploited, exaggerated and outright lied about them that are really at fault for vaxx denial on the right.
"Pretty much all actual measures worked, though, when properly implemented."
Masking never fails, it is only failed.
The lies about Covid that killed people are all by the left.
Governor Cuomo still needs to go on trial for 15,000 counts of Murder One.
And of course, hospitals labeled everybody and everything possible as Covid-related because they were getting big bucks from the feds for every report of a Covid case or Covid death, no matter how absurd.
The payments were not always under the table, but sometimes explicit. There was at least one hospital that gave early vaccinations to "donors" of $10,000 or more. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/special-invitation-only-covid-19-vaccination-clinics-at-seattle-area-hospitals-raise-concerns-of-equity/
And in some places, governments administered vaccines based on racial preferences
This is what evil vile subhuman monsters do. How f’n disgusting is this?
If Democrats ever seize control over our Healthcare, every white person's life will be at risk. And I am not exaggerating or trolling.
"Vaccines are useless/harmful, and also it's terrible that they prioritized other people over me."
"COVID vaccines save lives, lets not give it to the people at risk, lets give it to the blacks for social justice reasons. Social Justice demans we kill white people by denying them care.
Sincerely,
The Democrats
P.S. please let us take control of all your healthcare!"
Ooh that sounds super smart. Please give my vaccine to a young black male who isn't at risk for COVID!
Bootlickingly Yours,
David Nieporent
P.S. I think the Whites deserve to have healthcare withheld from them!
I won’t lie, I miss the Pandemic.
I was in Thailand when the first wave of panic hit and the crowds started thinning a bit, and all the hotels and bars started cutting prices.
Then I was in Cambodia, and went to Ankor Wat, which at times is nearly over run with tourists. But by then It had about 10% of the normal crowds. It was probably the 5th or 6th time I’d been there, but by far the most enjoyable.
In winter of 20-21 I couldn’t travel internationally but Sedona was quite affordable and then my wife and I drove from Arizona to Florida and back, Arizona was relatively relaxed but Florida had full bars and patios without masks or vaccine card checks.
Then in winter 21-22 went to Turkey and Balkans and Greece for 2 1/2 months when Omnicron was raging, the tourist attractions were accessible prices cheap, and even when I caught Covid I was in a beachfront hotel with a balcony and my wife went out and got me fresh pomegranate and orange juice on the beach.
Greece was more restrictive, but the Parthenon was open and almost empty and the souvenirs were 1/2 price in the shops nearby.
Oh no, the pandemic sucked hard.
Ever try to work from home while simultaneously entertaining two school children? And being told that all the playgrounds and outdoor activities are closed.
No thank you.
Yes, the Rona' was great for the International Sex worker industry.
I think the only Covid lie I told was when I finally decided that it was worth getting boosted, after having had Covid before I could get vaxed. There was no way to get the booster without having had the vaccine previously, despite all the reasons for the booster just being one shot equally applying to people who'd had Covid itself.
So I signed up to get vaxed, and never showed up for the second shot.
I live in SC, which wasn't really into vax mandates, neither my employer nor my wife's insisted on it, and my son was old enough to frankly explain to him why, no, he was NOT getting the vaccine. (Because the stats said it had no benefit for children his age.) So it's not like there was much temptation to lie about it.
I only did it so I could go on my honeymoon. Otherwise, I would not have bothered.
'There was no way to get the booster without having had the vaccine previously,'
Well, duh.
What the hell do you mean, "Well, duh". You do know why booster shots are different from the regular vaccine, right?
It's because it takes a lot less vaccine to elicit an immune reaction from somebody who has already been exposed to the virus than from somebody never exposed. So, on the one hand, you don't need as much vaccine to do the job, and on the other, if you DID get as much vaccine anyway, the odds of an adverse reaction would go up a lot.
The exact same reasoning says that people who've previously had Covid should only get the booster shot, not the full vaccination series. But they set things up so that the booster was unavailable to anybody without a record of having been vaccinated. And never mind the higher risk they were imposing on the people who'd merely already had Covid.
It's not "well, duh", it was medical malpractice.
'The exact same reasoning says'
Actual medical science seems to disagree. There wasn't any significant 'higher risk.'
And if you're a medical scientist who disagreed, they'd censor you.
I'm not sure why we trust a survey where we simply ask people if they're liars.
Self reporting studies are an area of some controversy in academia.
Ordinarily I feel like it should at least be a good floor, but look at all these Covid rebel virtue signaling posts above….yeah, not sure on this one.
Oh, you mean like this:
1. Do you always tell the truth when you are answering nosy surveys? Yes/No
2. Are you lying now? Yes/No
Yeah. That and $3.50 buys you a cup of coffee (these days).
"I know that people paid money under the table to get the vaccines quicker."
In the other direction, there were people who took money to not vaccinate people and say they did.
A lot of that in Hollywood, I hear. A regular industry providing 'stars' with faked vaccination cards.
You hear?
I'll believe there is a population that did this. The idea that it's Hollywood stars? Smells like wishful bullshit.
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/phony-covid-19-vaccine-certificates-are-now-selling-on-the-dark-web/
No connection to Hollywood, I concede.
Hollywood Exec Claims Nearly 1/3 of Actors Are Using Fake Vaccination Cards
Don't you say you never believe anonymous sources? This article sites *rumor*.
Be consistent.
What the hell do you think I meant by "I hear", anyway? That it was conclusively proven? No, just that it was being reported.
Everything Sarcastro doesn't want to hear is unfounded speculation.
Things he wants to hear are facts, or the best judgement of experts.
Whatever, Kaz. Provide examples, or shut up with the empty insults.
Brett, you didn't just hear - you passed it on.
You denigrate any anti-Trump story with an anonymous source as worthless. But this? Well, this is worth sharing.
The content of this rumor stands or falls (falls) on it's own. This is now about your inconsistent evidentiary requirements.
It is a vice of all of us to tend to think stuff that aligns with our worldview has more credence. But that's something to struggle against; this is a really stark example of just letting that vice take you.
In this survey "about 26 percent reported that they misrepresented or lied about their children's COVID-19 status"
The other 74% lied to the survey.
I never lied about anything related to COVID-19, but boy oh boy was I fed a footlocker full of it from public health officials, politicians, the media, teacher’s unions, and big tech. My faith in the establishment, never very high to begin with, went completely underwater and hasn’t come up for air since.
This is ever the story: "I always hated the government, and having listened to people who agreed with me on that telling me the government was lying, now I hate it even more!"
This is a bipartisan narrative - plenty on the left who distrust The Man. But also, whatever, dude. Covid changed nothing for you, just made you feel more righteous about where you already are.
As others have stated - the CDC destroyed that myth
"plenty on the left who distrust The Man" when The Man is the Right. But now that The Man is the Left, the distrust is somewhat muted.
Nope - just not reported on by the right these days, since they prefer a persecution narrative at the moment.
Look at Biden's poll numbers;
the left's take on Covid reopenings;
the woo-woo naturalpathic left's take on vaccines;
the left's interpretation of the recent derailment and response;
and always the thinking about police departments.
The anti-government left is and remains a thing. Thing is, we're not electing those types to Congress.
No, people on the left believe in public health, people on the right seem to believe if you ignore it it’ll go away, which it probably will, albeit taking more than seven million people with it so far, and they're willing to invent any lie or conspiracy theory they need at a moment's notice even contradicting precvous lies and theories to make sure that as many people as possible are more terrified of the vaccine or masks or social distancing than of a disease that has killed, again, seven million so far.
Nige, the statistics after the fact confirm that all the masking, all the lockdowns, all the medical theater, accomplished nothing save tanking the economy, causing a two year disruption in children's schooling which they do NOT seem to be bouncing back from, and causing excess deaths by delaying 'elective' procedures like heart and cancer treatment.
Some humility would be in order for the people who supported all that useless and destructive policy. The people who opposed it in the first place turned out to have been right.
After working overtime to undermine, sabotage, block, delay, lie, sensationalise and even criminalise pandemic responses, now the right is pretending none of that happened and pointing at them and saying they didn't work.
My favorite example of this genre is, "Masks are useless, and also public health officials should be prosecuted for lying in the early days of the padenmic and saying masks were useless."
You very conveniently leave out the fact that the establishment did lie to you. They lied to everybody.
You leave out the fact that the establishment did coerce you to take an experimental vaccine. They coerced everybody they could (until the courts told them to stop.)
You leave out the fact that the establishment did throw the economy, children’s education, hospital visits, social gatherings, outdoor events, gyms, restaurants, small businesses, the list goes on and on! — into a completely useless lockdown for years. This non-medical intervention had never been done before, and in fact was against all standard medical practice. And then the only exception to the lockdown horribles were BLM protests!
The hypocrisy of the establishment alone ought to cover you and your fellow travelers like an avalanche. Everyone everywhere is back-pedaling. But not you. No, you are busy hand-waving it all away, pretending it was nothing, it meant nothing.
Bah. Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining. I remember. I was there.
When got me was, it wasn't enough they were blowing smoke out their asses, but anyone who dissenting experts were silenced on Google, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and at government bidding. I don't blame them that much for being panicked and wrong, but is precisely because they knew they didn't have the science nailed down they were so vociferous about squelching dissenting opinions.
The AGW "Consensus" has been using the same playbook for at least a decade.
Cranks with bad science and conspiracy theories were all over social meadia, don’t know what you’re talking about.
I left out tons of untrue stuff.
As I said, you were already an anti-government crank, now you're still that but self-righteous about it, citing a bunch of nonsense you were told was true and apparently never really checked up on.
You haven't pointed out one untrue thing 'they' told us.
Like my grandpa used to say “If you can’t get engagement with hot takes, bad graphs, and self-aggrandizement, post something about Covid.”
Patients lie, it's what they do, it's why every fat fuck "Doesn't eat hardly anything" has Low Testosterone/Thyroid/ or my favorite "Multiple Chemical Sensitivity Syndrome"
Remember one Bee-, I mean woman, had missed her period, gained a little weight, breast soreness, of course she was concerned about cancer. When advised she was 2 months pregnant, replied it wasn't possible because her husband had been in Alaska working on the pipeline for the last 6 months (remember the Alaska Pipeline?)....
7 months later she gave birth to our Saviour, Jesus Christ (I went to Med School a long time ago)
just kidding, but she left the ER swearing she was the Virgin Mary,
Frank
The scamdemic was a ploy by the banksters to get the Fed to print $4 trillion to pump up their stonks.
This offers a good opportunity for law schools to teach overcriminalization. You are a prosecutor. You must get the maximum number of convictions. Write up a plan for prosecuting these liars. For example, if the lie made its way into a federal record there is 18 USC 1001. If an employer gave sick leave to somebody who falsely claimed COVID exposure, that's fraud. And so on.
For some this would be a lesson on "three felonies a day". For others, this would be a wet dream about finally locking up all those COVID deniers and resisters.
For most that’s just a really silly thing to think and type out. But while we’re in LaLa Land, tell us more about the prosecutor pursuing criminal fraud charges against an employee who took a sick day but who wasn’t really sick.
https://www.amny.com/news/three-doc-officers-charged-with-fraud-for-lying-about-sick-leave-for-over-a-year/
you are aware AlGore invented this Invention called the Internets, and on this Invention you can use this application we call the "Google" to look up thangs?
Frank
Of course, the hypothetical is of a prosecutor indicting an employee for taking a sick day when they weren’t sick. But sure, a conspiracy to defraud sick time for over a year is definitely exactly the same thing as that. Nailed it.
I'm curious about the flip side. How many people lied and paid money to receive fake credentials to show they had been vaccinated when they actually weren't?
Surely the flip side is how many got the vaccine and then lied to say they didn't because the vaccine is actually a poison to kill people and/or implant chips in their bodies, wink wink?
My 28 yoa son lied about being a smoker to get the shot early
so he's really stupid, good for him!
Many people who would not generally call themselves "obese" would promptly check that box if it helped them get a vaccine quicker.
Obesity is often defined simply according to BMI, and a BMI >= 30 qualifies as obese. I'm sure that a lot of people that check the "a few extra pounds" box on their dating profile have a BMI >= 30.
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmi_tbl.htm
BMI is, of course, a famously inaccurate measure, because it doesn't take into account what the extra weight consists of, it just asks if you're relatively heavy for your height. Porkers and power lifters both get the same number. They only use it because it's easy to calculate, it's a classic case of looking for the car keys under the streetlight.
And they know that, and use it anyway. Sheesh.
Is the BMI that inaccurate for people that don't do a substantial amount of resistance training to deliberate build extra muscle or have a job that uses enough physical strength to build it? I don't know, so I'm just asking what you know that I don't and how you know it. If it is only inaccurate for the relatively small portion of the population that can be 40 lbs or more over their ideal weight purely with muscle, then it could still be a useful first approximation for general fitness. I was assuming that it was fairly obvious that overall health takes a lot more than one number to evaluate.
And this criticism of BMI isn't really relevant to what I was saying anyway. Blackman was the one that used the word "obese" in the context of what conditions qualified as comorbidities for COVID risk, and BMI is what is used to determine that for the vast majority of people.
Kind of. I received two doses and a booster, but I lost my vaccination card after an out-of-state trial. I subsequently learned that some bureaucrat hat fat fingered my records to the state and I was only shown as having one dose. So I photoshopped someone else’s card so I could go to a concert.