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Do Hospitals That Drop Mask Requirements Risk Liability?
Prof. Nina Kohn and I argue that they do
Prof. Nina Kohn and I have a new piece up on the Harvard Law Petrie-Flom Bill of Health blog that examines the question of liability in cases in which patients contract COVID-19 in hospitals that no longer require masks. Here is an excerpt:
Hospitals have a common law duty to act reasonably. If they unreasonably expose patients to risk, and the patients are harmed as a result, hospitals may be liable for damages. The result: patients who can show that it is probable that they were infected with COVID-19 in a hospital, and that they would not have been if the hospital had taken reasonable measures to protect them, may be able to successfully sue hospitals for damages.
The big question is what does it mean to act "reasonably" in a world in which COVID-19 abounds and remains a leading cause of death, including for children. Over the past century, courts have developed a variety of approaches to figuring out the bounds of reasonableness. In determining whether a precaution is "reasonable," modern courts commonly consider the relative costs and benefits of taking that precaution. Where an individual causes harm because they fail to take a cost-justified precaution, they may be found negligent and required to pay for the damages they have caused.
Requiring masks in direct patient care settings is a prime example of a cost-justified precaution. Masking is a simple, effective, and low-cost measure that hospitals can take to substantially reduce the spread of COVID-19. And the benefits are significant in hospital settings. Hospitals concentrate people who, as reflected in the conditions that bring them to the hospital, are both more prone to infection and more likely to face serious consequences if infected. Moreover, both healthcare providers and patients are known vectors of transmission in healthcare institutions.
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You're a little out of date. The news has been full recently of a new CDC study saying masks are not effective at anything except virtue signalling.
Not what the study said.
Of course not! The CDC used a lot more pages. But it's a good enough summary.
Simple, succinct and wrong.
Ditto. I can play this fact-free response all day long.
You'd certainly do that rather than draw attention to the study itself.
I DID draw attention to the study. If not, what were you responding to?
Make up your mind.
You drew attention to ‘a’ study that supposedly says what you want it to say. The last time you did that, the study itself contradicted you in its first paragraph. But maybe this is a different study…?
I see no cite for that either. Funny how one way that is.
So it was the same study? Or a different study? Which is it? Or neither?
Goddam. He’s right - it was all over the news. The organization is Cochrane, “the world’s largest and most respected organization for evaluating health interventions”. They concluded exactly what he said they did.
https://www.city-journal.org/new-cochrane-study-on-masks-and-covid
Y’all are so fucked up in your indoctrination thst you can’t even admit a simple factual point.
Ah, there it is, never fails:
‘The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.’
You fuckers wouldn’t know a factual point if you drowned it in a stream because it’s inconvenient.
Meanwhile:
https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid-19-demonstrates-their-effectiveness-real-world
The latest meta-study on the matter shows that masks did nothing, and the only way they do work is if they are N-95 and worn correctly. Normal paper masks however are fecking worthless.
Given that wearing N-95s correctly is complicated and stressful, and never works long term the idea there would be significant liability is absurd.
The Cochrane review in question here looked specifically at that:
"May make" means the overall evidence is weak, but what evidence there is disagrees with you.
‘The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.’
Alternatively:
https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid-19-demonstrates-their-effectiveness-real-world
One issue would be the efficacy of wearing masks. In any lawsuit the plaintiff would have to provide hard proof that wearing masks prevents the spread of covid. They might have some trouble doing that. The defense could present a strong argument that is not a proven case.
I doubt that is an issue. The hospital will have the presumption of authority to determine what measures are consistent with their duty to protect patients and care-givers.
Even in the context of a barrage of skepticism from half-educated, disaffected, virus-flouting, antisocial, right-wing hayseeds?
Kirkland, definitely your mouth needs effective covering.
If you prefer your right-wing delusion and bigotry at the Volokh Conspiracy unleavened by liberal-libertarian content, ask the proprietor to censor me. He has done it before, to flatter his conservative followers, so he might do it again.
I suggest you include a vile racial slur in your request if you wish to improve your chances.
You seem to have the bigoted vile slurs covered yourself.
From the clinger perspective, apparently so.
For example, I was censored for using “sl_ck-j_wed” and “p_ssy” (timid or weak; derived from “pussycat,” according to the dictionary, although some involve pusillanimous in the provenance) to describe conservatives. This blog approves, however, terms such as “faggy” and the curiously popular (at this blog) n-word.
That is how the Volokh Conspiracy rolls with respect to its ostensible “civility standards.” Some may ascribe this to partisanship, censoriousness, and hypocrisy. Others may figure it’s just responsible editorial judgment. In any event, this is the Volokh Conspirators’ playground, so they set the rules, because polemical hypocrites have rights, too.
Remember what you used to write before "sl_ck-j_wed"?
Lmao
His mouth isn't the part of "The Reverend" Jerry's anatomy that got him into trouble
If a hospital makes the choice to remove mask requirements and gets sued and the hospital is given the presumption of authority then the lawsuit would get thrown out right?
Nico, the hospital would be the DEFENDANT -- they would have to prove that they weren't negligent in NOT requiring face diapers.
Their ability to require whatever they want (including everyone wearing a Dasiki) is not relevant here.
Nope. A plaintiff has the burden of showing the defendant was negligent, and that negligence caused the plaintiff damage.
In this case, you would likely see a tiresome battle of the experts.
Which leads me to an old lawyer joke:
What is the difference between a prostitute and an expert witness? Only one commits perjury!
And that someone actually got infected with Covid at the hospital instead of somewhere else. That’s going to be really hard to prove for anyone who spends time anywhere besides the hospital.
Masking is certainly low-cost but it is not simple to do properly. More problematic for this paper, you are assuming your premise by simply stating that they are effective rather than demonstrating that claim.
By the logic of this article, you could equally claim that hospitals should regularly use tiger repellent spray to reduce liability. My patented tiger repellent spray is also cheap and even simpler to use than getting surgeons (much less patients) to mask up properly. Efficacy matters. It cannot be simply assumed.
There is no logic needed. That is the rule that the hospital chooses to enforce on its employees, contractors and patients. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere
No logic required from a rule standpoint but how about from a liability mitigation one?
There is an anti-trust issue then because they won't let you.
I don't know about the others, but Tufts' Healthcare will not give you a referral to any provider outside Tuft's network, even if your insurance doesn't even require a referral.
"If you don’t like it, take your business elsewhere"
No longer an option with Medicare and Obamacare; you WILL stay in network.
(and fewer and fewer doctors/hospitals are in any network)
Before Obamacare, my old policy (Blue Cross) would not cover me for out-of-network care at all (absent emergency room visits, which were always covered anywhere in the United States).
Is your recollection of pre-Obamacare coverage different?
That comment has nothing to do with the article above. Of course companies (including hospitals) have the authority to set their own policies. The article above is a legal question of whether hospitals materially increase their liability by choosing a particular policy that is "lenient".
Indeed. The question isn't one of if hospitals can choose to enforce masking. It's one of if they are legally liable if they choose not to.
We spent 2 days in hospitals last week, doing a series of tests. The hospital required masks, and had the CHEAP paper masks to hand hand out. NOT N95 masks.
So the hospital is or is not liable?
They are requiring masks
The masks they are requiring have never shown ANY efficacy.
A measurable response (but not statistically signifacant) of short term use of 95 masks IF properly managed.
It seems to me requiring masks, but then providing a mask that does nothing, is worse than telling visitors to take voluntary measures to protect themselves.
Now that is an interesting question (and very different from what Don Nico was claiming).
I think the answer is that they have not increased their liability. Even if you postulate that masks are a pure placebo, they fall within the discretion that companies are allowed to make. "No shirt, no service" is arguably a health and sanitation rule yet when you look at modern and completely allowable fashions, what counts as a 'shirt' can be so small that there is no conceivable health connection. Yet restaurants everywhere are allowed to impose it and are unsanctioned when (as at the beach) they choose not to impose it. It's an arbitrary dress code - and private companies are allowed to be arbitrary.
The counter-argument is that the hospital enjoys a special status in their role as health advisors and that over-using a placebo creates a false sense of security and actually diminishes the behaviors that really do keep people safe. But this would be a very difficult argument to prove in court.
There is no logic needed. That is the rule that the hospital chooses to enforce on its employees, contractors and patients. If you don’t like it, take your business elsewhere
Tell me you don't have a clue what the subject under discussion is without telling you don't have a clue what the subject under discussion is.
Are you stupid? or just clueless?
Unless the person that the hospital negligently caused a damage, s/he has no case.
Are you stupid? or just clueless?
Unless the person that the hospital negligently caused a damage, s/he has no case.
Unlike you, I'm literate and understand written English. "That is the rule that the hospital chooses to enforce on its employees, contractors and patients. If you don’t like it, take your business elsewhere" has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.
How about a garlic necklace to repel vampires? It's cheap and by all accounts highly effective.
Yeah! Or internal UV lights! Or horse de-wormer!
Let's test your gullibility and respect for science. Do you actually believe (like most clingers) that childish fairy tales, such as those on which the most popular religions rely, are true? Or do you instead prefer reason, education, science, and the reality-based world to superstition, dogma, ignorance, and fantasy?
OK Kirkland, let’s actually look at the science.
There’s evidence that the “vampire” outbreaks were actually outbreaks of Rabies (which is very real) and that as mammals with Rabies are hypersensitive to smells, garlic would repel them.
See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/178623.stm
Also knock wood regularly to prevent misfortune.
Ritualistic behavior is the new Science.
And they need to hire Ed's Wolf Solutions to keep wolves out of the building -- because, maybe, one might walk in (and an automatic door *would* open and let the animal in). And the wolf might be rabid and might bite someone -- so avoid liability and give me $$$$.
I read a study about the wearing of masks in the operating room. This study was done before COVID. They found a REDUCTION in post operative infections when masks were NOT worn in the operating room. The study said that it wasn't going to recommend the removal of masks from operating rooms because of tradition and perception. I take "tradition and perception" to mean the fear of lawsuits.
Bacterial infections. I don't think they're quite prepared to dispense with them when there's a highly infectious ariborne virus doing the rounds.
Not quite correct.
That study found *no significant difference* between masking and not masking. (While the absolute count of post-operation infections was higher in the mask group than the no mask group, it wasn't significantly so. Significance is required to claim two treatments are actually different and not just the result of random chance).
That said, they still weren't recommending dispensing with the masking requirement, despite no evidence the masks did anything.
Masking is certainly low-cost
Sure, in dollars and cents (so long as you are the sort of person who doesn't mind the odd $10 disappearing from time to time.)
But there is also the annoyance cost. Nobody likes wearing masks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8X9tcT2FpA
And some people find that they require you to put in more effort breathing. Any kind of tight fitting mask is more uncomfortable still.
And then there is the secondary annoyance cost of being obliged to follow other people's whims, for no reason than that the whimsters have power to coerce you.
Perhaps it's time to order everyone back into suits and ties, unless employed in manual labor, so as to "smarten up the American workforce." Or perhaps to "prevent distinctions of rank or wealth in dress." Applied unisex, and definitely including college students (and faculty.)
I wonder if that might help discourage mandate enthusiasts a bit.
'I wonder if that might help discourage mandate enthusiasts a bit.'
The list of arbitrary things you guys will come up with is apparently endless, but also endlessly stupid.
No. There's absolutely zero quality evidence that masks confer real-world benefit against the transmission of disease, and the precautionary principle isn't a strong enough reason either (one could use it to argue that masks *shouldn't* be worn, in fact).
To hold hospitals liable for doing something that, aside from a brief period of COVID insanity, we've always known is statistically useless, makes even less legal sense than it does common sense.
Stop with this idiocy. Now.
Don't like that rule, don't go to that hospital.
Ignore my flag. All thumbs
You are missing the point here and actually arguing the converse without even realizing it.
The issue is can the hospital be liable if it does NOT require masks -- and you appear to be defending their right not to, should they wish not to.
My attitude is that this liability issue is why a lot of people believe that the only good lawyer is a dead lawyer. First they came for the Jungle Gyms, and now they are mandating face diapers....
They make these sorts of phony arguments about risk to support their personal preferences, pretending that they know what’s more or less likely to happen.
Did they study the costs versus the benefits? No.
Do they have statistics on the percentages of institutions making either choice and the total court awards and legal costs for each? No.
Did they talk to liability insurers (who have a financial interest in getting it right) to see if either policy might lead to higher liability insurance premiums? No.
Something bad might somehow happen though. So we should go with the personal preferences of specific storytellers weaving tales of risks, no matter how outlandish.
'Did they study the costs versus the benefits? No.'
What sort of study? A study that takes into account the value of human life and health, or a 'railroad in Ohio' kind of study?
'Something bad might somehow happen though'
A thousand people dying a week might be seen as a bad thing that is happening.
You should sacrifice two goats to prevent any more needless deaths. Why haven’t you? We can only conclude that you enjoy seeing people suffer and die, alas.
If two goats prevented the goatsucker from accidentally sucking even one old person who was too slow to run away from the goatsucker, then I say fuck those goats.
The monks at the temple who hunger for goat meat have as much expertise on spiritual matters as lawyers who like legal fees have on liability matters.
The monks did the same number of studies to support the goat sacrifice as the lawyers did for for mask mandate liability mitigation too: zero studies.
Goat meat is tasty. I prefer flying an anti-NCOV kite while riding a anti-NCOV bicycle. Twice the protection, gets me outdoors, and active. For hospitals, I skip the kite.
Prudent. Knock wood, just to be safe. Every little bit helps. We’re all in this together!
Why would monks do studies? They just have to read goat entrails.
Who wore masks during the swine flu pandemic?
Wrong post responded to.
This is a a bridge way too far. While masks may be minimally effective against Covid and other small viruses such as influenza, there are plenty of things masks are effective against including other diseases that really are primarily spread by droplet. Hospital acquired bacterial infections really exist and masks are part of an excellent attempt to keep that under control.
That being said ...
... simply isn't supported by the data and is primarily an article of religious faith. You can however take comfort in that while the rules requiring a mask for Covid might be there to appease the fundamentalists, you are probably safer in the waiting room where the patients could have any number of nasty contagious aliments.
So masks are effective against covid, but claiming they are effective against covid is a form of fundamentalism.
I think we are well past the point of diminished returns where the downsides far outweigh any minor benefit.
I think, like, 300-odd people are dying of covid in the US every day since last April, and the long-term effects for a significant proportion of survivors are debilitating, what's the over/under on how many fewer would need to die or suffer long-term effects to make masking worthwhile?
how many fewer would need to die or suffer long-term effects to make masking worthwhile?
You keep beating this poor mule.
Statistically, masks do nothing for covid spread.
In fact, they do. It's variable, depending on mask quality, compliance and proper wear, but they do. Which suggests free high quality masks, public information campaigns and social pressure to wear them would save quite a few lives.
Citation please. RCT trials only.
https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid-19-demonstrates-their-effectiveness-real-world
Worn perfectly and changed out regularly, N-95s do. But the entire hospital is never masked in N-95s, let alone masked properly at all times.
Do you have any idea how many die from hospital mistakes?
So any reduction in that number is to be welcomed, right?
Setting aside the fact that masks have not been shown to reduce transmission, COVID is NOT a leading cause of death for children. The CDC lists 1,489 deaths among those 0-17 years of age WITH (not of) COVID for the entire “Pandemic.” All of them had serious, pre-existing, conditions that would have eventually lead to their deaths with, or without, COVID. Guns kill more than 3X that each year, congenital diseases more than 2X, and cancer more as well and that’s each year as well.
Lies do not become you.
concur - Children death from Covid was near zero.
1,489 is near zero?
Nige - you remain extremely misinformed
note JJSAZ comment above
"The CDC lists 1,489 deaths among those 0-17 years of age WITH (not of) COVID for the entire “Pandemic.” All of them had serious, pre-existing, conditions that would have eventually lead to their deaths with, or without, COVID. "
there remains virtually no child in the US that has actually died from covid.
A quick google, plus a calculator, reveals that using the same counting method for each - ie dying WITH, as opposed to dying OF - the Covid-vaccination death rate for children is about 5 or 6 times the Covid death rate for children.
The latest CDC recommendations are ambivalent about using masks: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/infection-control-recommendations.html (updated 23 Sept 2022)
And a 'well fitting' mask is an OHSA N95 or equal (not a Chinese KN95, or other piece of trash). https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/types-of-masks.html
So, by demanding people mask up a hospital will be acting contrary to recommended best practices.
Eeeeek!!!!!!!!!!!! Facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My superpower
" hospital will be acting contrary to recommended best practices."
could be, but it is their choice to make and enforce.
No one is questioning whether hospitals CAN choose to require it. The entire point of this discussion is if they would be subject to liability if they DON'T choose to require it.
How on earth would a patient prove causation (aside from a relevant court taking the drastic and, in this setting, unjustifiable step of applying a strict-liability standard)? Such a plaintiff would also be up against a mountain of evidence that masks do nothing and the paucity of credible evidence (i.e., excluding quack studies) that purport to show that masks prevent covid transmission.
It's not that but the expense of proving that -- and hence like the Jungle Gyms that got dismantled because some child might do something stupid (I think the high metal slides are gone now too), the bullying legal fascists are going to scare spineless hospital administrators into ignoring the science.
Why can't this be extended to requiring Level III Biohazard suits and segregated air supplies for each? After all, if everyone in the hospital were wearing one of those, I wouldn't have caught COVID.
The point you are missing here is that medical errors are now the third leading cause of death and that a lot of other things, far more dangerous than COVID (e.g. MERSA) are routinely spread through hospitals.
So if the hospital is liable for not requiring a medically-questionable mask, it isn't equally liable for not enforcing clearly effective sanitation (handwashing, etc) requirements? Yet, have you seen any successful suits for MERSA?
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us
That was my reaction: If they were going to start holding hospitals responsible for dropping safety precautions, this isn't exactly where I'd start.
Or, view masking as the start of addressing the rest.
Sure, let's start with something people are already sick of, and that's highly politicized, so that the push stalls instantly instead of accomplishing anything... Why not?
Yeah, why not? People being sick of something doesn't mean people aren't still getting sick, which is the important thing. And Republicans will oppose it with wilder and wilder fits of hysterical ranting about face daipers and strings of garlic and knocking on wood, which can only help in terms of credibility and highlight how utterly fucking banal wearing a mask in a hospital to lower the chances of airborne infections actually is.
nige - you lose what little credibility you have when you stick to partisan talking points, not that you have displayed much if any actual knowledge on the subject matter of covid in the past.
These are only partisan talking points to people who see this as a zero sum political game.
Nige - you have to rely on partisan talking points because your actual knowledge of the subject matter grossly misinformed
Nige, a lot of medical mistakes are nurses mistaking what the doctor said -- so you want to make it HARDER for the nurses to understand what the doctor says?!?
Well, this is the stupidest reason I've heard so far.
Its sounds stupid to you because you dont understand the subject matter.
No, it sounds stupid because it is stupid.
its is stupid to you because you knowledge of the subject matter is pathetic which you frequently demonstrate
The claim is not that hospitals are required to take every possible precaution to reduce the risk of COVID transmission: it’s that the benefits of masks are so high compared to the costs that it’s unreasonable not to require them.
I agree that the empirical support that the authors marshal for this claim is a little underwhelming, but I don’t think this is much of a refutation.
It's worse than just a little underwhelming....
Assume an individual, who is part of the 42% of Americans who lives within reasonable distance of only hospital, is bleeding profusely from her leg and arrives at a hospital with a Nazi armband mandate. When speaking with the triage nurse, the patient states that she is herself a physician and believes that wearing a Nazi armband, while easy to do and likely to cause no lasting harm, is a purposeless, foolish thing to do. The hospital refuses to treat the patient until she dons a Nazi armband. The patient continues to refuse to comply until she bleeds to death.
First, is the hospital responsible for treating the patient, even if such patient is a criminal and/or is non-compliant to a degree which does not preclude treatment? Should Samuel Mudd set Booth's leg? [ https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-dr-mudd ]
Second, if the hospital is fined in some manner by or found liable to those affected by armband noncompliance, can the deep-pocketed subrogate the claim to the (potentially not-deep-pocketed) patient who refused to wear the armband?
I'm personally not certain the cited paper offers anything to the discussion other a reinforcement of the correlation between litigation and greed.
'a hospital with a Nazi armband mandate'
'I demand to be taken seriously.'
Try harder next time
It's not even if there is another hospital nearby -- if it is serious, uncontrolled bleeding, it's going to be too late to go to the other one anyway.
Tune in next week to 'Nazi Armband Hospital.'
A lot rides on that word “reasonable.”
There are plenty of endemic communicable diseases floating around besides COVID, and hospitals have not required masks for them. If one takes the view COVID has moved from pandemic to endemic status, plus mask requirements have been removed generally, one could argue that perhaps this is a risk society has decided to accept.
I guess you don't keep up with Cochrane Reviews.
Zephram?
As entertaining as Cromwell’s portrayal was, I prefer Glenn Corbett’s. Maybe it’s my age showing.
I concur, and I’m a millennial. Though I stared out with TOS reruns I programmed my VCR to tape at midnight, so I am not your average Trekkie for these days.
I’m glad (and surprised) to hear this. That episode’s love story was the closest the show came to . . . ?
Another excellent example of why you and CC should not be taken seriously in any discussion of COVID.
You and Prof. Kohn are IDIOTS ... no better than the lowest common ambulance chasers.
Where I live you can buy a box of 100 masks for $10, at any CVS.
What exactly is the big f**king deal?? Why not just wear the f**king mask???
It's more important than life or death. It's political.
Well, I feel kind of stupid wearing a face diaper when the medical personnel don't bother. Aside from that, it's not a big deal to me, hospitals are about the only place where it might actually make sense, given the high percentage of people with communicable diseases in them.
As I said above, it's hardly where I would start, though, in going after hospitals for ditching safety precautions. My personal hobby horse is injection technique, actually. Aspiration was dropped from the protocol not long before Covid hit, and I think it was a BIG mistake.
“face diaper”
I wonder if doctors have the same attitude when they put on a mask for surgery.
“Here I am, a grown man with three college degrees, and I have to put on a f**king diaper!”
========
“Well, I feel kind of stupid wearing a face diaper when the medical personnel don’t bother.”
I haven’t been in a place like that. Where was this? I want a name and city because they should be reported.
St. Francis Millennium, Greenville. Among others in this area.
Look, my wife is a dental assistant, I have friends who are nurses and the like. The masks they're wearing (When they do wear them.) are nothing like the "face diapers" I'm talking about, and they're much better fitted than you can achieve with the ones you buy for 10 cents apiece at CVS. Those masks I can easily believe would be effective against Covid, when combined with obsessive hand washing and face shields.
"St. Francis Millennium, Greenville"
A physical therapy center. Excellent equivocation, discussing hospitals then referring to "medical personnel," implying you mean those who work in a hospital. I give you full points for rhetoric, zero for good faith discussion.
Ah, I see, you think that, because they do physical therapy there, they only do physical therapy there.
Abortion clinics are considered hospitals.
Read your state licensing regs sometime -- there are levels of care.
Captcrisis
You might actually demonstrate a knowledge of science
masks do a decent job of stopping the transmission of bacteria, though a very poor job of impeding the spread of a respiratory virus, thus the reason to wear masks in surgery.
We wear masks in any setting where blood, and any of the other twenty bodily fluids can get on our faces, eyes, mouth. Likewise masks on where the ordinary spit that happens when one sprays it while saying it and that would be bad for an obvious open wound, like in the OR or emergency room.
So yeah, could be a face diaper, cause that is the effect we want.
Will it stop aerosols? not a chance. even a well fitted N95 still has intermittent gaps on the seal as one speaks.
The particle size of a virus is 1000x smaller than a spit droplet...
…you a doctor?
And 10x smaller than the mesh of a NIOSH-approved N95 mask.
Remember that N-95 came from industry, not healthcare.
Like Senescent Joe is in Kiev right now??
It's not the cost (though even $10 a week is significant for some folks). It's the utter pointlessness of the exercise.
Multiple studies pre-COVID showed that even highly trained surgeons did not (and do not) wear their masks in such a way that they can be effective. This was quite literally the situation where the case for masks was the strongest. And even among trained professionals who were personally motivated to do the right thing for their patients, they can't get it right.
Masking by the general populace is and always has been mere theater. And that is sufficient reason to resist.
What exactly is the big f**king deal?? </i
What is the big f**king deal to just be left alone???
Masks don't help, they impede communication, they make it harder to exercise indoors, and they generate potentially biohazardous waste. What's to like?
Everyone everywhere should just stop what they’re doing and go home and stay there. Anything else risks liability.
Hospitals urged to scream at patients to wear a mask because not being a complete jerk to everyone around you might risk liability.
Still making stuff up stuff to get mad at, eh?
Still dishonestly gaslighting people, eh?
Ben going into hysterical meltdown because hospitals might take one minimal precaution to reduce the spread of airborne diseases.
Ben going into hysterical meltdown because hospitals might take one minimal precaution
This is about Hospitals being legally libel for not requiring protocols that have never been shown to be effective.
"most" people are complying with medical facilities requirements. Those that refuse are not allowed to enter, unless they are in danger.
Getting hysterical isn't going to help. Except maybe in riling up the ol' Trump base.
Do Hospitals that allow Surgeons to chop off perfectly healthy Peni, Testicles, Breasts risk liability?
"That's different" (every democrat everywhere)
I mean, it literally is different, so there's that. Republicans: hysterically squeamish about everything from wearing masks to surgeries.
DemoKKKrats hysterically squeamish the "Average World Temperature" (Where do you measure that?) will go up 1.4 Degrees (F or C? there's a difference) in the next century (it won't, but even if it does, who gives a (redacted)???
Frank
‘I don’t give a (redacted)!’ he screamed, non-hysterically-squeamishly.
Not yet, but soon
How would this apply to other communicable diseases? I know multiple people who got colds, flu, pneumonia, even MRSA at hospitals. Were hospitals ever liable for that in the past?
It's kind of insane if they AREN'T taking basic precautions against those, and masking alone would help reduce three of them, and a towering disgrace that this is being argued in terms of fear of liability, not actual concern for staff and patient health. It is a lawblog, I suppose.
Whatever the science and CDC at the time, a plaintiff only needs one expert to hit the jackpot.
Depending on state law, plaintiff might need to find an expert willing to opine that there was at least a 51% chance that the plaintiff would not have gotten sick if only the hospital had required N95 face protection or whatever alternative is being proposed. I read a First Circuit decision, applying Maine law, ruling that a plaintiff had not proved that the alleged medical error was more than 50% likely the cause of plaintiff's injury. It could have been, but there were enough numbers in the case to show that the greater-than-50% threshold set by state law had not been met.
That’s what liability insurance is for: unavoidable financial losses.
"Insurance will take care of it" is a factually and economically ignorant answer. It doesn't excuse destroying businesses or looting during protests, and it doesn't excuse lawsuit lottery.
Insurance companies will refuse to cover clients, they will drop them from coverage even if the client is not at fault, and even when they do cover the costs, those costs are deadweight losses that cost the normal producers and consumers without benefiting them.
It’s not meant to excuse. Buying insurance is the only reasonable thing someone can do to avoid losing the litigation lottery.
Yeah, we need reforms. Until then insurance.
Since it’s an essentially a lottery, insurance acts as a reverse lottery ticket. Losing the litigation lottery is rare so tickets (premiums) aren’t very expensive.
No.
There are a number of studies that demonstrate the limited to zero benefit of masking. Requiring liability for such "benefit" is malpractice.
https://nypost.com/2023/02/14/face-masks-made-little-to-no-difference-in-preventing-covid-study/
I see they've stopped linking to the study itself because of that paragraph that I have certainly posted for you a few times before warning that the study cannot be viewed as remotely conclusive.
And what paragraph is that?
Link me to the study, and I'll show you, again. You'll notice there is no such link in the story you linked to, because of reasons.
I see....
You have a paragraph, which you have supposedly "posted for you a few times before" from the study, but you can't possibly actually post the paragraph, unless I provide more links than I already have?
Me thinks you are, as the saying goes, "full of it".
Nige is a paid shill for the CCP or the Democrats, I cant tell which since his message always benefits both.
Why does nobody want to link to the study they're talking about? It's a bit weird.
Here's a discussion of the study, which explains that it doesn't undermine earlier studies showing that masks are effective. https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-studies-show-face-masks-reduce-spread-of-covid-19-cochrane-review-doesnt-demonstrate-otherwise/
Yes, well, that's why they've become squeamish about linking the study itself.
'Multiple studies show that face masks reduce the spread of COVID-19; a Cochrane review doesn’t demonstrate otherwise'
Of course they face liability.
As long as there are lawyers they will face liability for just being a doctor.
In Med School (1980's yes I'm old, on the other hand we actually examined patients back then) they used to tell us the story of a Psychic who claimed she lost her Psychic powers after having a CT Scan, seems that "Loss of Psychic Powers" wasn't listed as one of the possible "Adverse Outcomes" supposedly won a big Jury settlement (YES, Reverend, this was in Alabama) She had a "Jury of her Peers" alright, Idiots,
Frank
You know, that is not beyond the realm of possibilities.
Homeland Security is reportedly working on scanners that, theoretically, will be able to read people's thoughts and we *are* leaking a lot of electromagnetic radiation -- it's what EEG, EKG, and such are able to measure.
I'd need a *lot* of evidence to convince me, starting with if she really was psychic to begin with, but could you have imagined some of the medical technologies of today back in the '80s? Or that you'd be reading x-rays at home on your laptop, with no wires going into the wall?
Not imaging things, but got a few of the details wrong,
Judith Richardson Haimes is an American woman from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, who worked as a psychic in Newark, Delaware, until an allergic reaction to the iodine tracer injected for a CAT scan allegedly disabled her psychic abilities. She sued Temple University Hospital and was awarded over $600,000 for pain and suffering and loss of income. This award was later overturned on appeal, 39 Pa. D. & C.3d 381 (Pa.Com.Pl. 1986).[1] Haimes currently lives with her husband Allen Haimes in Florida and writes a syndicated newspaper column on grieving.
Frank
a world in which COVID-19 abounds and remains a leading cause of death, including for children.
My days of not taking you seriously are definitely coming to a middle.
Also, "children", has a llnk on it. To not keep you in suspense, that link does not in fact say that COVID-19 is a leading cause of death for children.
To expand for people that don't want to be bothered, the link goes to a 4-page Congressional Research Service report titled "The PREP Act and COVID-19, Part 1: Statutory Authority to Limit Liability for Medical Countermeasures" that does not discuss death rates at all, much less for children.
There a levels of dishonesty, and that one is well into "open fraud" territory.
“never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence”
And to be fair, linking the wrong link is pretty mild incompetence. Though I'm never going to get back those three minutes I spent reading and re-reading the linked item, trying to work out whether my own, Olympic level, incompetence was overlooking some obvious reference to child mortality from Covid.
Shiny
Just for the record:
Accident
Cancer
Homicide
Heart disease
Flu
Cerebrovascular disease
Septicmio
CIRD
Suicide
Then, at number ten, COVID-19
https://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/mortality.asp
The Federal Interagency Forum on Child and Family Statistics (Forum) is a collection of 23 Federal government agencies involved in research and activities related to children and families.
It's 0.3 percent. I wouldn't call that "leading".
Also notice that flu is several places higher and nobody's demanding that hosiptals require masks, based on the prevalence of flu in the general population.
Perhaps they should have. It might saved saved a lot of lives if they had, during flu season, anyway.
So, from nothing, to the tenth leading cause of death in just a couple of years.
In Oregon, we still must wear masks in any health setting, so:
- if I go to the grocery, no mask, but must mask up to stand in the pharmacy line.
- masks required in the hall of the Dentist office but not in the clinical parts, where I get to breath on everybody...
"go to the grocery, no mask, but must mask up to stand in the pharmacy line."
Science!
"masks required in the hall of the Dentist office but not in the clinical parts, where I get to breath on everybody"
The Wonders of Science!
You should be thanking the people — who are totally not charlatans pulling policies out of their ass — for these wondrous rules that they’ve, no doubt, carefully studied and proven effective.
No one in Oregon got Covid so far, right?
This is what happens when you succesfully break public responses to national crises for, you hope, political gain.
Seems like you are mixing up science and policy, in order to get mad at scientists and policymakers.
You guys are the ones who like to pretend science is involved. Despite never engaging in the scientific method to understand policy outcomes or to guide policy choices.
Another great showing from the Volokh Conspiracy's carefully cultivated collection of conservative commenters.
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I'd rather mock these deplorable clingers and point out this blog's hypocrisy, bigotry, and partisanship for those who might mistake it for an academic or mainstream legal blog.
Come on, guys! There's megayachts to be bought by lawyers on these class action suits, siphoning off hundreds of millions from hospitals into the megayacht industry!
5000 pounds of mahogany flooring ain't gonna panel itself!
If there is plausible evidence that the patient contracted Covid after entering a hospital that didn't practice masking, and the patient died of Covid, which side of the resulting law suit by the decedent's estate against the hospital would you, as a lawyer, be more willing to take on a contingent fee? Assume the decedent was in early middle age and had a seven+ figure annual income.
Defense lawyer's dream: proving hospital as source of infection versus all other sources of exposure for the plaintiff is impossible. If in Federal Court defense lawyer asks court to waive seven hour limit on depositions since it will take several weeks to examine plaintiff just on contacts.
Hospitals are full of sick people.
Would this liability apply to any disease other than COVID?
If yes, why were the precautions in place pre-COVID not adequate to avoid liability?
Better question: why is liability the main reason for even considering a basic step like this instead of the health of staff, patients and the public?
Because liability is a way of forcing people and institutions to ignore cost/benefit considerations, and just do what the people who can impose the liability want done?
If they prioritised health and safety, it wouldn't even be an issue.
Because, again, this "basic step" doesn't actually protect the health of staff, patients or the public. If there were clear evidence that masks worked, we wouldn't be having this debate.
There is clear evidence that masks work, there's just a lot of people suddenly invested in lying about it, as witnessed by people commenting here in this thread about a study that simply does not match the claims they make about it.
There is no "clear evidence" that masks have any statistically significant effect when used in the real world. There are a few studies which show that masks could work if used and worn in ways that just never happen. Again, even pre-covid studies of surgeons and other highly trained medical professionals showed that masks are worn incorrectly.
Frankly, you have no room to complain about others "commenting ... about a study that does not match the claims they make about it."
Weher else are they wearing them, Meta? If non-compliance is an issue - mandates. If improper wearing is an issue - education. If quality is an issue - make better masks available. Stop acting like every simple problem means you have to lie down and die.
Even before the Cochrane review, there was no meaningful evidence that masks prevent transmission of aerosols in the real world setting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7357397/
And plenty of evidence that surgical masks don't stop bacterial transfer in surgery. I have to look for the link, but a controlled trial with/without surgeons wearing masks showed higher post-op infection rates in the masked cohort.
Finally, most MDs don't believe masks work. How do I know? Because I am regularly in areas of clinics and hospitals where physicians and medical staff congregate (break rooms, private offices, etc). They all take their masks off. Every single one. And 90% of them bitch about the mask mandates.
Nosocomial infection is an unfortunate fact of life. I would hazard a guess, though IANAL, that a hospital that knows its bacterial population (the role of the infection disease guys) and doesn't make efforts to control it (using appropriate antibiotics, sterile practice, etc) is far more at risk than a hospital that cannot control the spread of an endemic virus that has a survival rate of 99.997% for those under age 70.
"virus that has a survival rate of 99.997%" And there you went off into fantasy land
Studies show that masks are effective. I bet they bitch about a lot of things.
'that has a survival rate of 99.997% for those under age 70.'
Over three hundred people are dying of covid every day in the US. If they were all over 70 there wouldn't be any over-70s left by now.
The claim that covid is a leading cause of death for children is just false. It almost never kills children. And linking that to a legal paper rather than a medical paper is even more deceptive.
Does that common law requirement hold true if it goes against federally mandated treatment? Because it’s obvious to me that any hospital that sedates unvaccinated Covid patients and puts them on respirators and Remdesivir against their will is deliberately murdering them and the individuals doing it need to pay the penalty.
As for masks, they've been proven not to work multiple times.
I stated a summary of the CDC report. Nige's response was "No" with no description of what was wrong. Did. Did not. Now you come in with a false fact, and I ask you too to say something more substantial.
In fairness, you're right, it could be a completely different study that contradicts your summary of its findings to that last study you posted that contradicted your summary of its findings.
Here's something for you, not the one I meant since it was posted after my comment, but it has a ton of links. I doubt any of them will satisfy you, since your comments were too nebulous to be falsified.
https://reason.com/2023/02/20/facebook-says-noting-the-cdcs-scientific-misrepresentations-could-mislead-people/
'ton of links.'
Just one is all you need.
That it's not happening? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (HT M. Albert)
Queen - Are you and nige in a contest to see which you can display the lowest level of basic knowledge.