The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
In 2023, Pierson v. Post Meets Keeble v. Hickeringill
Modern-day efforts to sabotage fox hunts.
Property classes usually begin with two foundational cases about animals. First, Pierson v. Post (New York, 1805) involved a dispute over a fox hunt. Second, Keeble v. Hickeringill (Queen's Bench, 1707) involved a dispute over a duck hunt. Both cases had a common thread. On the one side was a traditional hunter, who engaged in the hunt with all the formalities. Post pursued the fox with hounds, while Keeble built an elaborate trap known a duck decoy. On the other side, Pierson intercepted the fox at the last minute, and Hickeringill shot-off a loud gun to scare away the ducks. In both cases, hunters were frustrated by--to put it loosely--jerks who did not abide by the informal hunting code of ethics. Who prevailed? In Pierson, the Court ruled for the jerk, because he was the first person to physically capture the fox. But in Keeble, the Court found that the jerk interfered with the hunter's lawful employment.
An ongoing saga in England reflects something of a hybrid between Pierson and Keeble.
The Warwickshire Hunt club, which was founded in 1791, still holds elaborate fox hunts. Or something like that. Britain outlawed hunting of foxes using dogs in 2004. But hunters can still lay down artificial scents, which the hounds can track. However, critics of the hunt claim that dogs often wind up killing a fox.
Enter the West Midlands Hunt Saboteurs group. This organization takes extreme steps to interfere with the hunts, which are held on private property. Like Pierson, the saboteurs prevent the hunters from getting the fox. And like Hickeringill, the saboteurs try to scare away the prey:
At least three times a week, rain or shine, the activists pursue the galloping riders by S.U.V. and on foot through forests and fields, both to film evidence of what the activists say are illegal activities and to do whatever they can to hinder the actual hunt.
Turning the hunters' tools against them, the activists blow their own hunting horns and crack whips in an attempt to confuse the hounds. They also wield canisters of citronella spray to mask the foxes' scent and employ small amplifiers that play the sound of crying hounds to unsettle the pursuing pack further. Every activist has a walkie-talkie. . . .
The activists have spent years harrying the hunters. To confuse the pursuit of the fox, they master use of the hunting horn and learn dozens of distinctive shouts, including the "tallyho" that is yelled when the animal is spotted.
When I teach Pierson, I often joke that if there was a disputed hunt today, there would be recordings to indicate who caught the animal first. And so it is:
For the activists and the huntsmen alike, this is a propaganda war, too — a battle for hearts and minds. Video cameras are everywhere, some wielded by the activists, some carried by the hunters.
As one of the hunters came galloping past, she shouted at Mr. Graham: "You're trespassing! Don't film my children!"
Unfazed, he zoomed in with a hand-held camcorder on a group of hunters standing nearby on the windswept hillside. Without uttering a word, they turned their phones on him, recording the recorder.
There is nothing new under the sun.
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I get the concern about interfering with a person's actual employment...regardless of what she or he does for a living.
But when you're talking about putting on an elaborate cosplay in order to murder a defenseless animal. For "sport." Well, I think a lot of people might disagree with which side should be blithely labeled as 'jerks.'
If killing a fox is murder, should fox-hunters in Texas be executed?
No. I had been using murder in the colloquial sense. "Intentional (and, IMO, unjustified) killing of another." The fact that it's not a human means that, in the legal system, it's not murder or manslaughter (foxslaughter??).
Hunting for food? Fine by me. Hunting because you have a small dick and you need to prove you're a real man? Pathetic. Hunting for fun, but in a way that terrifies the animal before the killing? I don't even have words for that.
"Hunting because you have a small dick and you need to prove you’re a real man? Pathetic."
He hates what he doesn't understand. Typical leftist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAyz5c3JmM
We kill billions of defenseless animals each year in farming. Hunting is arguably more moral than factory farming. At least the quarry has a chance no matter how low to get away and would naturally be in a similar situation in the 'natural' world where they'd constantly be pursued by predators like wolves. Getting shot is probably a much quicker much less painful death than many animals in the wild (or humans) will get.
I really don't understand the big difference between a firstworlder killing an animal for food, a fur coat, or for sport. Technically they don't NEED any of these. You can just sit in your house in your synthetic clothes playing video games and getting fat off bill gates artificial frankenmush.
I killed a fox once -- with my car.
Said fox was chasing a rabbit who, I have no doubt, could not believe that the fox didn't eat him. Both had come out of the brush and crossed the road right in front of me.
Nature is cruel.
I have it on good authority, from a close friend, that the only foxes hunted have committed chickencide.
Post never owned the fox in the first place, folks. Nobody "owns" a wild animal. It's hard to believe he went to court over this.
Can you own bees?
Sure, same as any other kind of fish.
The King owned all the wild animals in his hunting preserve. Today, wild animals killed or caught by hunters without permission of the landowner are rightfully the landowner's property.
If I'm not mistaken, Maine law is that they belong to the State of Maine. If I am not mistaken, New England took the English law and instead assigned ownership to the state.
For the record, legislation.gov.uk has a neat little button on the left that lets you see the geographical extent of legislation. In this case it would tell you that the Hunting Act 2004 applied only to England and Wales. In Scotland fox hunting was already illegal under the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002″ (animal welfare being generally devolved in Scotland), and in Northern Ireland it continues to be legal.
This story reminds me of the time I went to see a performance of the Mormon Pageant held annually outdoors on Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY. I'm not religious, just curious.
I was dismayed to find that anti-Mormon protesters set up vehicles with 6 foot high loudspeakers on the nearby road to try to shout down the pageant.
Oh well, at least the USA is not alone in its descent into madness.
I've been saying recently that since the pandemic, that so many people seem to go around looking for any excuse to start a fight with others they disagree with. I've seen vegans sabotaging fishermen. But I guess the anti-fox and anti-mormon stuff predates the pandemic.
Did Pierson have some purpose for catching the fox other than disrupting the hunt?
I don't see why Post should be more entitled to his fun than Pierson was to his.
In Keeble, the OP refers to the hunters' "lawful employment." Who hired them, to do what?
They might have been self-employed, and sold their catch in markets.
Could be.
In any case, the ducks likely ended up on a dinner plate somewhere.
"activists pursue the galloping riders by S.U.V."
If I remember my driver's ed, the operator of a motor vehicle (which a SUV *is) must stop and shut off the vehicle at the request of a person with a horse if it is bothering the horse.
Above and beyond this, well, accidental discharges happen...
I'm 65 so for me it's been quite a while.
The spoilsports all have homes, somewhere. In this age of facial recognition, they are indeed fortunate the hunters are better sports than they.
Longish article on this in today's New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/12/world/europe/fox-hunting-warwickshire-england.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=World%20News
We still have a law on the books prohibiting interference with passenger pigeon trappers. It survived the recodification of laws in the early 20th century even though the wild pigeon was extinct by then.
🙂 Fox hunts are fun. https://www.loc.gov/resource/highsm.12846/?r=0.072,0.225,0.851,0.544,0
Mostly among the same sort of people who enjoyed witch-burnings.
Obsolete people.
I don't do "blood sports" - in my youth I did once go to a game farm to shoot some kind of small bird, but I missed the little sucker. But I do eat meat. To the best of my knowledge, none of the cows, chickens, pigs, turkeys, etc., etc., etc., gave informed consent to becoming meals for humans. The biggest problem with fox-hunting, it seems to me, is that the fox is inedible -- or am I misinformed?
Fox meat is edible, if unpleasant (its quite tough) I don't imagine that foxes killed in traditional fix hunts are eaten by anyone though.
So Oscar Wilde was wrong about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI-P4ByLG_Y
And the even better part https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWcGPqp2TRk
Well, there's video out now, one of the clowns trying to disrupt the hunt put herself in the path of one of the horses and managed to get herself ridden down.
Sadly, she was reported to not have been seriously injured.
We won't get into the number of Bald Eagles that get sliced 'n' diced by windmill blades -- which are moving at 200 mph...
I’m against needless cruelty. That being a fuzzy line but generally includes something way painful than what they’d get in nature with no recreational, economic, cultural purpose etc. I don’t count fox hunting because animals are hunted down and torn up in a far more painful drawn out fashion all the time by other animals and parasites and nobody cares and I’m a firm believer that being a predator unable to form advanced civilization shouldn’t earn you extra privileges. I also don’t count farming at least not enough to stop eating meat since many humans will similarly blimp up up in one place like factory chickens, shooting a documentary with sad music doesn’t really settle how they really feel about it, and the problem isn’t really carnivory but factory farming practices and the tech is quickly moving in a direction where we can either eat artificial mush or give the animals what we think is a better environment in an economical way and the pace will not be meaningfully affected by whether I eat meat or not. And also the hunt and farming along with eating meat is a basic part of human heritage that I believe we have a right to.
You would feel differently after watching your loving cat being carried off to become a meal...
Likewise, you'll feel differently about deer once you see a woman with likely will become lifelong facial scars from the deer that came through her windshield....
The Three Stooges answered this question in “Malice in the Palace”, 1949 (can’t link to this now because I’m in a restaurant enjoying a steak & martini before the Super Bowl maniacs show up).
Catholics have never been hunted?
I found two; this one seems slightly better, judging from the first few seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv7b9-ustaU
@ 5:10, the guy on the left is trying to not laugh out of character.
@11:20 "IMA DAM" -- Language! in 1949! In a kids' movie!
The amount of human activities that kill birds we'd have to get through before we get to windmills is, honestly, intimidating.
In alternate seasons.
Thanks! That’s what I would’ve posted.
Finishing my second martini now. . .
P.S. The map, which we’re given a long time to look at, shows that these shorts were originally for adult audiences. Also shows that these films were given a lot of thought despite the boys having to make four or five of them a year.
My argument is not just 'cuz its in history and nature'.
People often forget that almost everything was targeted to an adult audience back then, even Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse.
Quite true. As a child, aside from "Romper Room" and "Captain Kangaroo", everything we saw on Saturday mornings was originally a pre-feature short designed for adult audiences, many from the 1930s and 1940s. Looking at them today on youtube you can see that. Many are unacceptable today, though if you ask me, Jasper was a pretty smart kid.
Not Bald Eagles...