The Volokh Conspiracy
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Abortion and the 13th Amendment
Judges cannot take the Supreme Court's silence as a ground to subvert Supreme Court precedent.
It is easy enough for a District Judge to be all alone in Amarillo or Lubbock. But it is quite difficult for a judge to maroon herself on a deserted island along the Acela corridor. Yet, Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly somehow managed that Crusoan feat.
Judge Kollar-Kotelly is presiding over prosecutions against anti-abortion advocates. And post-Dobbs, the defendants had the temerity to state that "the Constitution does not confer a right to abortion." Bad move to accurately state Supreme Court precedent. Sua sponte, the court ordered briefing on whether "any other provision of the Constitution could confer a right to abortion as an original matter, which may or may not be addressed in Dobbs, such that Dobbs may or may not be the final pronouncement on the issue, leaving an open question." This is the sort of move that an eager law clerk cooks up, but a judge is supposed to veto. Not here.
You see, Dobbs was a 14th Amendment case. But Dobbs did not address the 13th Amendment. The majority opinion did not answer whether a restriction on abortion amounts to "involuntary servitude." Thus, this issue was left open! Apparently, Justice Alito hid an invisible elephant in a non-existent mousehole.
Judge Kollar-Kotelly explained:
Mindful that that this Court is bound by holdings, and in consideration of the Supreme Court's longstanding admonition against overapplying its own precedent, it is entirely possible that the Court might have held in Dobbs that some other provision of the Constitution provided a right to access reproductive services had that issue been raised. However, it was not raised.
I suppose anything is possible. Maybe Justice Thomas penned a secret concurrence about the Thirteenth Amendment, and spiked it. (Josh Gerstein, go find it!) But this analysis is not how lower court judges are supposed to treat Supreme Court precedent. Consider an easy example. Imagine if a district court judge, pre-Dobbs requested supplemental briefing on whether the Preamble to the Constitution protects a right to fetal personhood. After all, it "secure[s] the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." Nothing in the text says Posterity has to be born. And neither Roe nor Casey squarely addressed this issue. How would that sort of order fly from Victoria or Wichita Falls?
Judge Kollar-Kotelly framed her order in terms of minimalism, but she is inviting the parties to put forward arguments that could overturn Supreme Court precedent. And to what end? This constitutional issue has almost no bearing on the case. The judge is simply riffing on an accurate statement from a defendant's brief. Are we really going to get an entire constitutional exegesis on involuntary servitude in a dictum?
If the Thirteenth Amendment actually protected a right to abortion, then Dobbs must be overruled. And why stop there? What about the Free Exercise Clause and RFRA? Those issues are being litigated, and were not settled by Dobbs. Hell, everyone forgets about the Ninth Amendment? That provision was actually cited in Roe, and I don't think Justice Alito affirmatively rejected those pearls of wisdom from Justice Blackmun. Another invisible elephant!
I think there is some room for lower-court judges to decline to extend Supreme Court precedent to new contexts, but judges cannot take the Supreme Court's silence as a ground to subvert Supreme Court precedent.
For decades, conservative lower-court judges dutifully, and begrudgingly, followed Roe and Casey. Do not forget that Judge Ho joined the Fifth Circuit opinion that ruled in favor of Jackson Women's Health Organization. But what we are seeing here is massive resistance to Dobbs, much like we are seeing massive resistance to Bruen, and will soon see massive resistance to Students for Fair Admission. Judges do not like these rulings, so they will be read as narrowly as humanly possible, to maintain the pre-2022 status quo.
For those curious, the district court judges in Texas have an almost-perfect affirmance rate at the Fifth Circuit. Me thinks that not even the Reidified D.C. Circuit would affirm an order finding that the Thirteenth Amendment protects a right to abortion. And if this case slips upstairs, that's a GVR.
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Lol this is rich coming from one of the most prominent backers of California v Texas. I mean that whole thing was about ignoring Supreme Court precedent and pretending the dissent from NFIB was the law.
“[M]uch like we are seeing massive resistance to Bruen…”
This statement from the linked document is far more accurate:
“Over the [last] fourteen years, the lower federal courts exploited ambiguities in Heller to adopt a legal test that allowed them to rubberstamp legislatures’ choices. Almost every challenged regulation was upheld.”
Absent a vigilant Supreme Court, Blackman is right to forecast a similar course for Dobbs.
And there's no sign of a vigilant Supreme Court, either.
It wasn't ambiguous. The courts just realized they could get away with it.
Which document is that from?
Gotta keep killin' dose Black babies!! Talk about your "Systemic Racism"
Wow, that's stupid. If you're a black woman, and anyone tries to abort your pregnancy without your permission, you call the police. Problem solved!
Black woman calling the Po-Po? what could go wrong with that??
Wow, this guy is an idiot.
The 14th Amendment uses the word “person.” But the 13th does not. The 13th Amendment did not settle the question of whether newly freed slaves were to be regarded as persons in anything like “the full sense of the word.” Rather, it stood for the proposition that slavery was wrong and immoral regardless of Negros’ ultimate constitutional status.
Perhaps the 13th Amendment’s prohibition of slavery doesn’t cover simple killimg. But it might well cover being subjected to medical experiements for a purpose other than ones benefit. FDA approvals are based on clinical trials of abortifacients. Because these trials subject human subjects — not persons, but human — to medical experimentation for a purpose not in any way intended for or likely to result in their medical benefit, the 13th Amendment arguably prohibits them.
RE: “Perhaps the 13th Amendment’s prohibition of slavery doesn’t cover simple killing. But it might well cover being subjected to medical experiments for a purpose other than ones benefit. FDA approvals are based on clinical trials of abortifacients. Because these trials subject human subjects — not persons, but human — to medical experimentation for a purpose not in any way intended for or likely to result in their medical benefit, the 13th Amendment arguably prohibits them.”
What are you talking about? All the patients/subjects in clinical trials of abortifacient drugs gave informed consent (at least, no one has found any cases without documented consent). The only incentive the patients had to participate was that in some of the trials the grant covered the provider’s fee, so the patients were enabled to avoid paying for their abortions by agreeing to participate.
In any case, most of the trials were done in France, not in USA. By the time USA started doing clinical trials of Mifepristone, it had been in use in other countries for more than a decade.
(“You should read more history, Ensign!” – Captain Picard)
I think the slavery claim was forcing the woman to carry the baby against her will.
As opposed to the man paying child support?
wow, you actually made a cogent comment
'As opposed to' what? What is paying child support in opposition to? Giving birth whether you like it or not? Having to do the actual raising of the child?
Absent rape, she is carrying the baby because she willingly engaged in unprotected sex.
Sex isn't a crime, pregnancy isn't a punishment, or a holy obligation, and thanks to modern medicine, it's a choice.
To my surprise, Massachusetts repealed the Fornication statute in 2018.
It's no fun if it's not a sin AND a crime.
There are occasional failures of birth control, but most of those are failures to use it properly.
So what? I keep hearing the anti-abortion side make the argument that she willingly engaged in unprotected sex; how is that even relevant?
Her willingness to become pregnant does not justify forcing her to remain pregnant. You are like a kidnapper who invites your victim into your basement, then locks her in, and at his trial says "I'm not guilty of kidnapping, Your Honor; the accuser entered my basement of her own free will!" The answer is: "Yes you are guilty, because you prevented her from leaving when she wanted to."
The fetuses didn’t give informed consent. Nor do criteria for waiver of informed consent apply. The experiments weren’t even arguably done for their medical benefit, and indeed the contrary.
If the “subject” of a medical experiment on a slave is the one who gives the informed consent, then in a slavery regime the master, not the slave, is by definition the subject, and there is indeed no medical experimentation without informed consent. One could make exactly the same argument that medical ethics are fully satisfied. But the 13th Amendment prohibits such a regime. There are some things that the 13th Amendment, which is as much an implementation of morality as a conferral of rights. makes it immoral to subject a human being to, even a human being who isn’t a person, even a human being who lacks other rights and can (for example) be killed.
The fetus is not the subject. The intervention has no effect on the fetus. It separates the fetus from the subject.
My position on the 13th amendment and public accommodation laws as applied to single proprietorships is actually more legally plausible, and I'll candidly admit that it's way out there in terms of current jurisprudence. At least I'm talking about actual service, which is involuntary, not analogizing a biological process to working for somebody.
Which is more burdensome - making and serving a hamburger, or pregnancy and child-bearing?
There are a number of things free societies have long compelled free people to do. A requirement to serve the general public as a condition for entering certain trades and professions is one of them. Innkeepers were required to serve all comers, for example, for hundreds of years under English law.
The Supreme Court has long held that slavery does not include these activities. And legislatures can expand the set of trades and professions required to serve the public. There was a case holding the Civil Rights Act didn’t violate the 13th Amendment soon after it came out.
Yes, there are a number of things we have forced people to do, but none of them have involved accessing the insides of their bodies.
You know, Brett, they call it "labor" for a reason.
I don't see the current Supreme Court finding a constitutional right to abortion under any theory, just because they don't want to. But Judge Kollar-Kotelly isn't wrong, at least not in principle, that just because a right doesn't exist under one theory doesn't mean it might not exist under another. And the 13th Amendment claim isn't frivolous; as in chattel slavery, pregnant women are being told their bodies are not their own. It's one thing to seize someone's time or money; taking their own bodies away from their own control takes it to a whole new level.
A right to abortion as a matter of sincerely held religious belief, and freedom to practice religion, seems still an open question.
Isn't female genital mutilation a practice that stems from sincere religious belief?
But laws forbidding medical professionals from assisting have been upheld nationwide.
They just have to call it "Sexual Re-assignment Surgery"
Most of the time, the decision to mutilate her genitals is not made by the woman. Rather, she's suffering for her father's superstition.
Most of the time is no excuse for what is happening now. At least in many EU countries that have already stopped the practice of gender affirmation treatments and surgery as against the science.
He's referring to FGM, not gender ressignment surgery, which has been stopped nowhere in Europe, not even the increasingly transphobic UK, where they just make it incredibly difficult to access any care at all.
it's all fun and games until someone's dick gets chopped off.
Consensually. You always leave that out.
Sometimes it's done on children below the age of consent.
-dk
But in those cases not without parental consent.
Especially for children born with genitals that represent more than one sex.
It hasn't been stopped in Europe, but the trend is definitely in the direction of requiring substantial medical proof before getting it, in addition to being an adult before it's performed. It's not elective surgery in Europe.
They're also trending in the direction of making access to puberty blockers more restrictive.
They already have a high standard of 'medical proof,' all that's happening now is that there's a hysteria-driven movement to deny trans people any health care at all. Interestingly, a recent report outlined how the European right-wing groups and organisations behind this movement, and other 'anti-woke' initiatives, were heavily funded by Russian oligarchs. Not sure if that's dried up since Ukraine was invaded, but if I had to guess I'd say not, since Putin seems to regard it as a crucial part of his war on the west, but if so, I'm sure US Christian fundamentalists are stepping in to take up the slack.
"all that’s happening now is that there’s a hysteria-driven movement to deny trans people any health care at all."
What, including appendectomies and dental care? And you talk about other people being hysterical...
No, what's going on is that it's being recognized that puberty blocking drugs actually have irreversible effects, and that most cases of gender dysphoria actually resolve naturally as a result of... going through puberty! So that it's bad medical practice to prescribe them without a really good medical case that they're necessary.
The idea that you could prescribe those drugs to just buy time, like hitting pause on the puberty alarm clock, turned out to be wrong. Stop trying to demand policy based on a mistake!
‘What, including appendectomies and dental care?’
Well, those too, for everyone, if the Tories in the UK have their way, but no, I honestly thought you’d manage the concept of trans healthcare being restricted, I do apologise.
‘puberty blocking drugs actually have irreversible effects’
They have no more irreversible effects than other commonly used hormone treatments.
‘and that most cases of gender dysphoria actually resolve naturally’
No, this is not the case in actual diagnosed instances.
'The idea that you could prescribe those drugs to just buy time,'
Young trans people find delaying puberty through blockers to be hugely beneficial, whereas those forced to go through puberty while dysphoric experience trauma.
‘Stop trying to demand policy based on a mistake!’
Stop trying to deliberately harm young trans people by lying.
It wasn't a mistake, it was a lie. A malevolent lie to damage as many others as possible to justify to themselves the necessity of their own actions.
Speaking of hysterical scaremongering.
“but no, I honestly thought you’d manage the concept of trans healthcare being restricted, I do apologise.”
Then maybe you shouldn’t have said, “any healthcare at all”? Words have meaning, and I took you, quite properly, to be trying to claim that they were being denied normal medical care, which would indeed be outrageous.
They’re not being denied any health care people ordinarily get, just elective procedures aimed at pretending to be a different sex. And they’re not even being denied that, they’re just being told to wait until they’re adults who are entitled to make irreversible life changing decisions.
They knew it was irreversible. That was the point, and why it was controversial. Going through puberty, growing as a female, was intended to yield different results, a softened, more female like body.
This isn't some unanticipated result. That's false.
'just elective procedures aimed at pretending to be a different sex.'
There's a lot more to the healthcare they receive for their condition than the elective procedures.
It's other women who do the cutting.
I think that characterizing cisgender gender confirmation surgery as “mutilation” is pretty much a giveaway that the laws involved are based on animosity. It’s being treated just like transgender gender confirmation surgery would have been a few decades ago. Religion is at least as constitutionally protected a reason to confirm ones gender identity as the motivations for transgender surgery are. And cisgender gender confirmation surgery is far less invasive.
"Honor killing" is also a sincerely held religious belief, as was the practice of murdering widows. Anyone remember what some British guy had to say about that?
It's not the women who choose to be victims of honor killings or settee.
And it cycles back to the baby. If it's a person, doing it because your religion demands it (or, on last week's episode, because it's private) does not apply. You don't get to commit crimes against others because of religion or privacy.
Bite the bullet. Even if it is a baby, you still have the right to terminate. Hence all this argumentation is smoke and mirrors.
Kazinski and Dr Ed have both firmly repudiated any arguments on the grounds of sincerely held religious beliefs. Good for them.
"Except as punishment for a crime" --- if you are going to stretch the 13th, then let's talk the traditional crime of fornication.
Great, now you're bringing back sexcrime.
Thank you for admitting this is about punishing women.
It’s a brave new age Krychek. Men can be pregnant too.
No.
Always amusing when the sarcastic righties run up against the too-zealous-to-understand-sarcasem righties.
Not as amusing as liberals twisting their logic into knots over women and men and how the definitions seems to twist to fit the argument they need.
Yeah, you sure seem amused and not constantly resentful.
In values debates like gender, sexuality, abortion, guns, etc. no side is going to have a monopoly on logic or consistency.
Insisting you do is just a way to ignore the other side. Like, I can look at the arguments for personhood and the definition of human life and understand the pro-life position, even if I disagree with it. So, too, with the gender binary.
Never a whiff of that from you. Your comments seem to exist entirely to denigrate those you disagree with without really engaging with their position.
"Your comments seem to exist entirely to denigrate those you disagree with without really engaging with their position."
I think you just described yourself.
I make arguments. Like the one in the post you just replied to.
You just throw out insults and declare things wrong, like you did in this post.
Sorry,
Data doesn't support your hypothesis.
Your "argument" is just a series of insults.
"Yeah, you sure seem amused and not constantly resentful:
---Insult.
Meanwhile I've made numerous arguments throughout this thread that don't just insult people.
But, you're a partisan hack who defends antisemitism. So....that's your style.
In values debates like gender, sexuality, abortion, guns, etc. no side is going to have a monopoly on logic or consistency.
Sorry you missed this in your rush to call me bad names.
“'Except as punishment for a crime' — if you are going to stretch the 13th, then let’s talk the traditional crime of fornication."
Would you distinguish between pregnancies resulting from marital sex and those resulting from non-marital sex? That would pose equal protection problems under Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438 (1972).
I would take the view that having to support ones children simply isn’t slavery, no more slavery than having to serve black people at ones lunch counter. It’s something free people in free societies have long been required to do.
No, it is frivolous.
Look, first of all, being pregnant isn't labor. It's a natural physiological process like digestion. It's not taking the woman's body away from her control, it's something she didn't have control over in the first place. It really does not analogize well to servitude.
But, second, look at how many circumstances exist where you can legally be coerced into doing something.
Jury duty. Being a witness in court. Yeah, public accommodation laws. Paying taxes. The list goes on and on, and the courts never treat these things as slavery. Things that are much more clearly involuntary service.
Try arguing the 13th amendment, (Or the 3rd) if somebody breaks into your home in a blizzard, and you kick them out naked into a snow bank to die. Even squatters get more due process than that, you can't evict them under circumstances that would predictably cause their deaths, or just shoot them in the head and toss them out a window.
So, yeah, it's a frivolous analogy.
and just following the logic of a woman being forced to carry a baby to term how is a man being forced to pay for that baby when he did not want one but the woman chose to have it?
It's a very one sided argument. Leftist women always argue "Women, and women alone should have the right to decide whether to bring a pregnancy to term. But, if she chooses to do so, then the father should of course be obligated to pay for it, because the child needs support!"
It's a morally bankrupt argument.
What's morally bankrupt about it? If a child is born and you're the Dad, you have that bare minimum of responsibility.
You say "If a child is born" as if it just happens naturally. No, it only happens if a woman fails to exercise the "choice." She, and she alone, is making it happen.
Yes, that's the ideal.
Only to pay for the abortion...
The involuntary servitude argument is unlikely to succeed so long as the current Supreme Court sits, but it is not frivolous. In Jane L. v. Bangerter, 61 F.3d 1505 (10th Cir. 1995), the Court of Appeals reversed a District Court determination that a similar argument was frivolous.
IANAL but I recall that certain behaviors by pregnant women can get them in trouble with the law, including consuming alcohol. So it isn't just that the involuntary mothers are being forced to carry a baby, they're being denied the freedom to choose what they eat or drink and the personal risks they can take in their leisure or work activities. Further, they're expected to fund the entire process from the need to buy new clothing as they grow to the medical visits, prescriptions, and devices. At the end of which, the involuntary mother is at increased risk of death or other serious complications from the birth itself--a risk she did not agree to.
... all of which boils down to the age-old truth behind it all: imposition of consequences for immoral (per Christianity) behavior as a means to enforce religious conformity on non-believers.
You left out the military draft, which to me is a much more cogent example. Disclaimer -- I'm not a disinterested party on this one. I was ordered to report for my draft physical [although I was declared 4F due to myopia [nearsightedness]].
-dk
The real point being, the judge herself isn't supposed to float such "novel" arguments as a potential direction for the case to take.
If one of the parties brings it up, that's one thing. When the judge instead says "you should really use this tactic....I like that"...it's something else entirely.
I don't see a problem with it as a general matter provided the judge recuses themselves if such a case is ever brought to them.
Now do one about right wing-nut judges ignoring SC precedent.
Just when are you going to admit that those on your side of the aisle do the same thing?
The SC has the final word? The SC can't even decide what its final word is.
Sure, cite some examples.
Lawrence
Livermore!
We are playing "first word", right?
You're just playing with yourself
California v. Texas
She's just grandstanding not judging.
But what the hell, she's 80, her career is in it's twilight, and someone should make a futile gesture, and might as well be her. Obviously she's mad as hell and she's not going to take it anymore.
80? it's the new 70! look at our demented POTUS who's got more Neurofibrillary tanlges in his first 2 years in Orifice than Ronaldus Maximus had in his last 2 (want to compare the competence of the respective VP's? George Herman Woodrow Bush vs Common-Law Harris?) Ruth Bader Ginsberg kept supporting baby killing until losing to the Big Casino at age 87, pretty sure she's looking up and not happy about the current Sitch-you-Asian,
Frank
Yeah. Her list of notable court decisions in the last 15 years looks like a Democrat wish list.
If a Constitutional right to abortion exists (a big "if"), then it will be located in the Second Amendment's individual right to bear arms for self defense, and venued in a castle doctrine/stand-your-ground state.
That thought has occurred to me too. Whenever the subject of gun control comes up, the side that's opposed makes the argument that individuals need military-grade firepower so they can protect themselves from big, bad government. Well, what happens when abortion rights supporters decide that they, too, have the right to protect themselves from big, bad government by shooting people enforcing anti-abortion laws? Does the Second Amendment only protect one side in the culture wars? That could get real ugly real quick.
Sure, why not? On the same basis, of course:
"Why doth treason never prosper?
For if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason."
2nd amendment advocates correctly point out that it is, deliberately, a right to the means to rebel against the government, guaranteed by a generation who had personally done just that, and regarded the capacity as an important right, though one you only want to actually use in extremity.
At the same time, if you rebel and fail, expect a date with a gibbet.
So, yeah, abortion advocates have that same a right to be armed so that they can rebel, and can expect that same date if their revolution is unsuccessful.
Which is the proper argument to make against the people that say that the 2nd Amendment wasn't intended to allow the overthrow of the government. It absolutely was. Might equals right. So if you try to overthrow the government, you better be successful.
OK, the practical problem, though, is that there is no principled reason why, say, organized child sex traffickers couldn't decide that laws against child sex trafficking are tyrannical, and if they find themselves with more firepower than the state, you could find yourself living in a country in which it's not just legal but normal. That, in fact, is basically what has already happened in Mexico and Central America with criminal gangs that have taken over because they're stronger than the legal government. And probably when there's an insurrection, the bad guys win as often as the good guys do. So you're basically crossing your fingers that that won't be the case here.
Might makes right doesn't prove who actually was right; just who had more might. At least under the rule of law we have regular elections and an independent judiciary to better the odds.
What other standard would you apply? An appeal to natural law? How would that work out in Mexico? Ultimately, what is legally "right" is determined by those with the most power. In the case of Mexico and Central America, the problem is that the people are either unable or unwilling to collectively organize against the cartels. Civilization doesn't just require a few leaders at the top. It requires a moral, principled and intelligent population. Most of the third world lacks one or more of those things, which is why they are third world.
hoppy, the entire story of civilization is an attempt to get people to move beyond the state of nature. Go back far enough in human history and there were no laws; if you wanted to rape your neighbor's child and were stronger than him, nobody would stop you. But there are reasons to not want to live that way, and civilization is an attempt to do better than the state of nature. Sure it has its flaws, but it's a step in the right direction.
That's the point. But civilization doesn't exist in a vacuum. It requires a population that can handle it.
"OK, the practical problem, though, is that there is no principled reason why, say, organized child sex traffickers couldn’t decide that laws against child sex trafficking are tyrannical, and if they find themselves with more firepower than the state, you could find yourself living in a country in which it’s not just legal but normal."
Um, yeah. Your point? I don't see a point here.
Sure, if you have the capacity to revolt against evil, you have the capacity to revolt against good, too. But the winner gets to decide what was good or evil, that's just life.
More to the point, the 2nd amendment helps those who ARE good maintain the ability to revolt against evil, by maintaining their right to arms. Those who are good tend to try to obey the laws.
On the other end of the spectrum is those who are evil overthrowing the "good" government. But those who are evil would not obey any silly anti-gun legislation. They don't need a 2nd amendment to protect their "rights." They are evil, they will obtain the arms illegally.
Ridiculous argument, nobody argues the 2nd amendment lets them defy enforcement of any laws. Not zoning laws, not child support, DUI, bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc.
Not even gun laws that we disagree with, we go to court like everyone else.
Why not First Amendment from a "my faith permits this" or "freedom from imposition of another's religion" perspective?
Josh, Josh, Josh ... if she were younger this would be a job application, so she could stand out in the crowd of would-be Circuit court nominees.
As an old bat, this is just her way of getting some award from some womens' group, to be presented at a dinner on the rubber chicken circuit.
Learn to recognize when judges are trolling to get their egos stroked. You're young yet - it takes experience to really recognize it.
In other news, you should take up a motion to compel her recusal because it's quite obvious she will not hear those defendants' cases with any degree of impartiality. The defense counsel won't, because they know she'll deny it and take it out further on the defendants. In the alternative, there should be a way to compel her to undergo a mental examination, to prove her continued competence.
The mental competence occurred to me.
"But what we are seeing here is massive resistance to Dobbs, much like we are seeing massive resistance to Bruen, and will soon see massive resistance to Students for Fair Admission."
Funny. . . Prof. Blackman got something right - but he doesn't know it.
I'm curious why the issue of the constitutionality of abortion matters to this case. Congress could pass a law forbidding interfering with access to ice cream parlors (with an interstate commerce hook) or whatever, couldn't it? Why does the constitutionality, or not, of abortion affect a law about access to clinics?
Because the FACE Act wasn't predicated on Congress' authority to regulate interstate commerce. It was predicated on Congress' powers under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment to enforce the other provisions of the amendment. But since City of Boerne v. Flores established that the Supreme Court alone had the power to determine what was protected by Section 1, once the Supreme Court reversed Roe, Congress no longer had the power under Section 5 to criminalize interfering with abortions.
That's not to say that Congress couldn't amend the statute to put in a jurisdictional hook requiring the connection to interstate commerce, much like most of the other criminal statutes have. But until they do, the statute is facially unconstitutional.
I actually just looked up the actual text. They did throw in a mention of the commerce clause.
"it is the purpose of this Act to protect and promote the public
safety and health and activities Effecting interstate commerce"
Interesting, thanks. But the statute itself has no jurisdictional requirement. That makes it facially flawed, even if the commerce nexus is there.
Came for Blackman implying conspiring to block access was a speech violation.
Stayed for the ageism.
The 13A stuff does seem more the realm of academia than anything that'll become law. I am not the sort to engage with personally appealing but never to be useful theories. And I'm not sure this one is even personally appealing.
And of course the reason commentariat is going to have some crazy theories of involuntary servitude that are as out there as any theory being briefed.
Well ageism certainly is real, but I don't think it's sanctionable.
Yesterday my wife and I got new drivers licenses because we recently moved, hers will expire in 27 years, mine will have to be renewed in 4. That's straight up ageism, and I'm more than a decade younger than Kollar-Kotelly.
I wasn't calling for sanctions, I was pointing out how awful people in the thread were being this morning.
It got worse.
It's totally okay for courts to resist Dobbs and Bruen, because it's well settled that aborting fetuses is a god given right while the right to keep and bear arms is outdated and unnecessary. But it's not okay to resist Roe or Obergefell, because those are just decisions that move us forward as a society.
"If the Thirteenth Amendment actually protected a right to abortion, then Dobbs must be overruled." No: if the 13th protects a right to abortion, a 14th-based ruling is not thereby "overruled" but merely distinguished.
"It is easy enough for a District Judge to be all alone in Amarillo or Lubbock. But it is quite difficult for a judge to maroon herself on a deserted island along the Acela corridor. Yet, Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly somehow managed that Crusoan feat."
This has to be the worst writing I've ever read from a contributor to this site.
Why are modern women so cheap and selfish that they can't deal with 9 months of pregnancy?
"Why are modern women so cheap and selfish that they can’t deal with 9 months of pregnancy?"
That's not the most brainless, clueless comment ever made in the VC comments - but it has to be in the Top Ten.
Oh noes! 9 months of foregoing alcohol and sushi. What a horror!
Good lord.
Have you ever talked to a woman who has had a child?!
Google fourth degree tear.
I know you might look at that sort of thing to whack off too, but I'd not recommend that to others.
WTF is wrong with you?
During regular work hours, when people are commenting here for a moment before starting the next spreadsheet or some such, you suggest they look up something that will come up with NSFW images?
Are you entirely free from self awareness, or is your porn viewing so habitual that such a thing didn't occur to you?
Wow. Lot to unpack here.
1. I didn't say look at images
2. I didn't tell them to do it now.
3. I'm not their boss
4. And most importantly: why are you equating a serious complication from pregnancy with pornography? I feel like that says wayyyyy more about you than it does about me.
My mom drank and smoked the whole time I was all up in her Uterus, and look how I turned out (Left handed and 5'8" M.D.) she quit while carrying my sister (Right handed and 5'10" Air Traffic Controller) actually, not really sure if she quit, because she's been smoking/drinking as long as I've know her, 80 years old, and hot as (redacted) for an 80 year old
Frank
Even if pregnancy is slavery the defendants were not on notice that they were enslaving women by protesting abortion. They did not have criminal intent as to that newly discovered right.
The docket is here but so far nobody has uploaded any of the case documents into the courtlistener archives: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/63199028/united-states-v-handy/
Pregnancy is not slavery ipso facto, but slaves -- often used as breeding stock or to satisfy their master carnally -- lacked personal autonomy in regard to sex and reproduction.
There have been plenty of allusions comparing the present to "1984", but more and more it seems like "Through the Looking Glass".
1984?? you don't even know what year it is.
Time to allow briefing on the issue of whether an unborn human is a person entitled to equal protection under 14A.
I too support women not being allowed to be jailed ever.
WTF are you talking about?
You can’t deprive an embryo of its liberty without probable cause if it’s a person under the EPC. So police can’t arrest women unless they know they’re not pregnant.
The unborn child is a co-conspirator.
You think you’re being funny. But the joke demonstrates the central absurdity of your position.
Less absurd than a 13A claim.
And it was funny. You are just humorless.
I’m actually pretty funny. I just don’t like the humor of guys who think saying a racial slur in the break-room constitutes “humor.”
These guys can't get enough racial slurs . . . the next rounds of slurs is due at this conservative blog in roughly a week, although Volokh Conspiracy fans know never to miss a day because you never can tell when the proprietor will launch another.
Judge Kollar-Kotelly should troll SCOTUS by asking for a briefing on whether abortion is one of the privledges and immunities of citizenship.
"Time to allow briefing on the issue of whether an unborn human is a person entitled to equal protection under 14A."
How is that germane to this criminal prosecution? The issues on count one of the indictment are (1) whether the defendants agreed to create a blockade to stop the Clinic from providing, and patients from obtaining, (lawful) reproductive health services, (2) whether any conspirator committed an overt act in furtherance of achieving that objective, and (3) whether such overt act occurred in the District of Columbia. The issues of count two are (1) whether the defendants by force and physical obstruction, intentionally injured, intimidated, and interfered with, and attempted to injure, intimidate, and interfere with, a patient and the employees of the Clinic, because the patient was obtaining, and the Clinic was providing, reproductive health services, and (2) whether the defendants' conduct occurred in the District of Columbia.
The personhood (or lack thereof) of the patient's embryo or fetus is irrelevant to any of these issues.
Bob's saying that he thinks conservatives should be much more aggressive, like liberals are. And maybe a fraction as imaginative with the Constitution.
"How is that germane to this criminal prosecution? "
If the unborn children are persons, and since you can sometimes use force to save others from death, it might be germane to a defense.
Much more germane than the 13A grandstanding.
Uh, no. I have outlined the elements of the charged offenses.
Unimpeded access to a reproductive health service facility is a federal statutory right. Intentionally interfering with other persons' obtaining or providing reproductive health services by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, or attempting to do so, is a federal crime under 18 U.S.C. § 248. Conspiring to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate another person in the free exercise or enjoyment of a federal statutory right is a federal felony under 18 U.S.C. § 241.
What element(s) of either offense do you contend that embryonic or fetal personhood would negate? Please be specific.
>briefing on whether "any other provision of the Constitution could confer a right to abortion as an original matter
In fairness, I thought abortion was based-on the right to privacy, which in turn was based on the emmenations and penumbras of the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Amendments (Griswold). Taken together, that sorta implies that abortion should really be viewed, legally speaking, as quartering soon-to-be solders w/o consent of the owner.
Do you even know what a penumbra is?
You can disagree with the reasoning, but at least engage with what it's saying not some strawman.
Penumbra? is that like Fumunda Cheese?
Frank
I'm not sure what you mean by "based on" here. Abortion is healthcare and healthcare by itself isn't based on a right to privacy. The Roe v Wade decision used the right to privacy but that wasn't the only route to legalized abortion.
I am puzzled as to why the District Court has ordered briefing on the potential Thirteenth Amendment issue. This is a criminal conspiracy case arising under 18 U.S.C. § 241 and the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, 18 U.S.C. § 248. The indictment, https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.241671/gov.uscourts.dcd.241671.113.0_1.pdf, does not allege that the defendants conspired to interfere with other persons’ exercise of a constitutional right to abortion; at ¶8 it alleges conspiracy to interfere with federal statutory rights secured by § 248.
Section 241 proscribes conspiracy to interfere with the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to another by the Constitution or laws of the United States. The FACE Act secures rights to obtain and provide reproductive health services (which services in the District of Columbia remain lawful). This prosecution for conspiring to interfere with federal statutory rights is accordingly unaffected by Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, 597 U.S. ___ (2022).
I'm not so sure it is unaffected by Dobbs. Remember, Congress doesn't have general police power. Acts of Congress have to be based on some power the Constitution actually grants Congress.
This act substantially duplicates state exercises of the police power, a power Congress doesn't have. So, what power IS it an exercise of?
Dobbs removed at least one potential constitutional basis for the FACE act, the 14th amendment's enabling clause, which the act purported to be an exercise of.
Congress has no Police Powers??? who the (redacted) shot Ashli Babbitt??
Congress lacks the general police power of states. However, in DC and land purchased with the consent of a state legislature, the federal government is constitutionally permitted to govern as though it were a state. Obviously Ashli Babbitt was shot in DC.
Brett, do you claim that abortion facilities do not affect interstate commerce? Such a claim doesn’t pass the giggle test.
In any event, the District of Columbia is a “state” for purposes of the FACE Act, per 18 U.S.C. § 248(e)(6).
No, I don’t claim that abortion facilities don’t, in some attenuated sense, ‘affect’ interstate commerce. In a sufficiently attenuated, indirect, and rightfully constitutionally irrelevant sense, everything ‘affects’ interstate commerce.
Rightfully irrelevant because the commerce clause is a power to regulate interstate commerce, not things that ‘affect’ it.
I’ve never entirely given up hope that the Court will eventually repudiate Wickard, though I admit that hope is pretty threadbare at this point.
Now, I WILL concede that the FACE act probably is constitutional when enforced in DC and some federal properties. I say “probably” because it may have 1st amendment problems as it is actually applied.
The DC aspect actually underscores just how gratuitous the suggestion was, since Dobbs was completely inapplicable to the case before her.
Section (a) of the FACE Act requires force, threat of force, physical obstruction or damage or destruction of property, plus specific intent. What defects do you perceive as to enforcement as applied under the First Amendment?
Ask Mark Houck about that.
An abortion opponent was charged, tried and acquitted. Where is the First Amendment problem there? The article you link contains no discussion thereof.
Did you think I wouldn't click on the link?
The process is the punishment.
I agree with Justice Thomas that abortion itself does not involve interstate commerce. Indeed, private family matters and interstate commercial matters have long been considered opposite ends of the private/public spectrum. The same “privacy” arguments that were the basis of its being regarded as a constitutional right originally are also arguments that it isn’t interstate commerce.
However, the federal commerce power can do a lot of things to affect abortion. Congress can forbid or protect commerce in abortifacients (all drugs are articles of commerce, whether crack or penicillin); forbid or protect transporting across state lines to get an abortion; forbid or protect abortion on federal territory; and much else.
Its various powers add up to enough that it can make life very difficult for a state that either wants to facilitate abortion or to ban it.
At the moment, however, long-dormant laws on the books generally come out on the side of prohibition. The Comstock Act makes mailing abortifacients illegal, for example. The FDA took on the job of approving and regulating abortifiacients only after Roe, and only because it assumed Roe rendered previous interpretations of the FD&C Act unconstitutional and irrelevant. Now it’s not so clear.
"I am puzzled as to why the District Court has ordered briefing on the potential Thirteenth Amendment issue. "
Judge is trying to fill Ruth Ginsburg's baby killing shoes.
Its a troll, nothing puzzling.
A more prosaic flaw in the judge’s position is that novel constitutional rights are not normally first enunciated in criminal prosecutions for violating them. The reason for this is that the 5th Amendment incorporates mundane notions of fundamental fairness such as fair notice. Even if the judge is right, and I certainly don’t think so, these defendents cannot be prosecuted for violating a newly-proclaimed right that didn’t exist at the time of their conduct. And that means any opinion on such a right would be advisory in this case. A decision on such matters would have to await a civil case.
You are correct that due process under the Fifth Amendment requires fair warning, at the time of the offending actions or omissions, that conduct is proscribed by statute. That proposition, though, is not germane to the criminal proceeding in which Judge Kollar-Kotelly has ordered briefing.
The indictment found by the grand jury does not accuse the defendants of violating or conspiring to violate constitutional rights. It alleges a conspiracy to violate 18 U.S.C. § 248, punishable under 18 U.S.C. § 241, and the substantive offense of violating and attempting to violate § 248. Section 241 prohibits conspiracy to violate federal statutory rights as well as constitutional rights. The FACE Act (§ 248) has been on the books since 1994, and the historical antecedents of § 241 date back to 1870.
Agree that, since this prosecution took place in DC, Article IV territory where Congress has plenary police power, the constitutional status of abortion isn’t relevant either way, and attempting to answer alternative constitutional questions would result in an advisory opinion.
If a state prohibiting abortion is involuntary servitude, why aren’t laws on child neglect also involuntary servitude?
What if the unmarried father is forced to pay child support to the mother? Is this not a form of involuntary servitude?
I am still waiting for someone to address the issue previously raised about conscription (as in forcing males (and only males) to cut off their hair and go fight in Vietnam for 13 months) not counting as slavery but a woman carrying a child to term (for 9 months) being slavery. Either both or neither seems to be the answer to me.
Demonstrating that, so far as the courts are concerned, the definitions of "slavery" and "involuntary servitude" are a lot more restrictive than just "being forced to do something you don't want to do". So, yeah, it's a legally frivolous argument, things that are vastly more similar to actual slavery, such as military conscription, don't get treated as implicating the 13th amendment.
Really, it's just a BS analogy, nothing more.
Brett, do you honestly not see the difference between seizing time or money, versus seizing someone's body?
Think of it this way. Suppose a court ordered you to pay my mortgage. Now, suppose a different court ordered you to let me live in your house. You'd be pissed at both judges, but you'd probably also find having to write a check to my mortgage company slightly less onerous than waking up in the morning to find me wandering around your house nude.
Same here. Taking a woman's body is far, far more of an imposition that raiding her pocketbook.
Yeah, that's an amusing argument after well over a year of eviction moratoriums driving landlords into bankruptcy, when a pregnancy only lasts 9 months.
Look, you're attempting analogies for something which is sui generis. Pregnancy is unlike the things you're trying to analogize it to, in remarkably important respects, such as the baby you're proposing to kill not having had any say in the matter of ending up inside the mother.
But if we must analogize, even a squatter can't be evicted under circumstances that would lead to their immediate death, and the squatter is much more responsible for their situation.
Krychek,
As with everything, it's a balance. "Money" isn't free either, it typically requires the use of time and/or labor in order to obtain it for most people. (Yes, there are exceptions). People dedicate their bodies, in the form of labor, in exchange for money. And people have indeed traded in literally being pregnant, for money.
It all depends on relative costs. To use your analogy (paying the mortgage versus living in the house), it's a balance. If it was 1 year of paying the mortgage versus 1 day of living in the house...many would likely prefer the 1 day.
As for raiding the pocketbook versus "taking" a woman's body. If you paid the woman $200,000 to have the child....many would choose the money.
Might makes right is an underpinning of all government.
The vote is an abstraction of might makes right.
Freedom makes a country great, not democracy. Democracy is the tool of a free people, not their master.
Yes, but it also precedes no-fault divorce and a family court system that always sides with women. Back in the golden era of America, if a woman voluntarily left a man, she'd end up destitute, so she wouldn't do it.
An abortion basically is removing 85 years of life from the baby to save 9 months of mild inconvenience. This is indisputable.
And that's why it changed.
Actually, she'd get the ring first, knowing the consequence of unwed motherhood. More than a few brides married while pregnant.
I've already pointed out that 'body seizing' is not treated by the courts as a form of slavery, haven't I? Try going all "You can't seize my body, 13th amendment!" the next time you're summoned for jury duty, or somebody needs you as a witness in their trial. Or God forbid, you get conscripted and sent off to war. Fat lot of good 13th amendment arguments have done in conscription cases. The only thing this country treats as slavery is kidnapping people and forcing them to work for you.
And I don't think there's body seizing going on in the first place. OK, maybe in the case of rape, but rape is a crime already, isn't it? "You can't do this one thing that results in somebody's death!" isn't seizing your body. It's saying you can't kill somebody just as a matter of convenience, suck it up for a few months and let them live.
Right, so now that women are in the driver's seat, they should no longer unilaterally be able to impose 18 years of financial obligations on a man.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm
Yeah, it's bad to be obese. What's your point?
They're not imposing anything. If the child is born, the father has obligations. That's it.
The link says nothing whatsoever about obesity.
And yet, backing up the Declaration of Independence was....an armed revolution.
Without that armed revolution, the DoI wouldn't have stood the test of time.
Well, you can't, the government can, if it so chooses, or it can provide decent child welfare support, which is probably a better approach.
And if the father wants the child to born, but the mother doesn't because she's too cheap and selfish, he can't compel that. Why do you support the imbalance?
Because the woman has to give birth and the man does not. Trans men do, of course, as someone pointed out above, but I don't think that's dispositive.
Right, so if she chooses to go through with it, it should be her financial burden alone.
Nope. If the child's his he pays. Or you could advocate for equivalent child welfare payments.
Right, so basically, the woman gets 100% of the choice, and 0% of the responsibilities. That’s a violation of Equal Protection and of the slavery amendment.
Your side always says it's having to give birth that is a burden. That means having an abortion is not a burden, so the man should be able to compel the woman to do so.
Since women have to do 100% of the child-bearing (trans men excepted), yes.
You are confusing bearing a child and raising a child. Not the same thing.
Again, then what is the harm in allowing the father to mandate an abortion? You've already established the burden is having the pregnancy, not in NOT having the pregnancy.
Because it’s the woman’s choice to give birth or not. If the man wants to give birth or have an abortion, he should go ahead, but unless he's a trans man he won't get very far with either.
You didn't answer the question.
The harm is in letting others have control over personal decisions.
Not actually a rebuttal.
Let's say, hypothetically, the Americans issued the Declaration of Independence, but then didn't have an armed revolution (or didn't continue to have one). They just said peacefully "we're independent, but we won't fight violently for it".
What do you think the end result would've been?
Might makes right is not an underpinning of science.
Might makes right is an underpinning of government.
The two are very different statements.
Hey, we now have government science, just like in Russia:
https://nypost.com/2022/10/10/california-makes-it-illegal-for-doctors-to-disagree-with-politicians/
Yiou can be fined for lying about medical issues? Oh no.
What constitutes "lying" is in the eyes of the beholder. In the eyes of leftists like yourself, a medical statement that homosexuals are mentally ill, that blacks have a genetic intelligence deficit, and that cloth masks protect against COVID, are "lies." To normal, intelligent people, they're all truth.
"Why does might not make 2+2=5 but does make, say, there is no right to free speech."
Look at other countries where there is no right to free speech. Russia or Iran. Ask yourself, why is that true? Why can't I just say whatever I want about the government? Answer...because the government will use force to put you in prison.
On the other hand the government can tell you to say 2+2=5. Or that pi = 3. That doesn't make it true however. And if you try using pi = 3 in engineering applications, those will quickly fail.
'What constitutes “lying” is in the eyes of the beholder'
No it isn't, these things are quite well established.
Just like the IQ deficit among negroids.
What if you asked them to pay $92,880 in order to have the abortion? They could even spread it out over 18 years, in monthly installments.
Would that be too much of a burden? Why or why not?
A lot of pro-life Republican politicians quite like this sort of arrangement.
Armchair, if a doctor wants to charge 92k for an abortion, I'm guessing he won't have much business; women will simply find other doctors with more reasonable rates.
And if you're proposing that the government impose a 92k fee, yes, that would be burdensome and completely unrelated to any reasonable government concern.
And if you're making an analogy to child support payments, you are again ignoring that seizing someone's body is different from taking their money.
Yes Krychek,
I'm making an analogy to child support payments. That amount is the current average monthly child support payment in the US, over 18 years.
As for a reasonable government concern? How about the long term fiscal wellbeing of the United States. Each new US citizen will, on average, pay approximately $480,000 in taxes over their lifetimes. This doesn't include GDP gains, and other indirect gains. Each abortion will ultimately cost the US government a great deal in taxes.
This is simply "taking someone's money" by imposing such a fee. Which is OK in your books. And what people are regularly on the hook for, as ordered by the government.
Here's the thing - most people, and not just women, don't think of going through pregnancy as a cash equivalent action.
You can argue that - it's not a fundamentally inconsistent moral model. But it'll mostly just point out how different your moral universe is from everyone else.
"By that logic we should force couples to have kids."
Typically governments start that process by providing a mix of incentives for having children. Then potential disincentives get mixed in. Once that process gets robust enough, you can start mandating things, if needed.
Sarcastro,
Most people don't view it as a cash equivalent action. Then again, most people don't view having a chance sexual encounter as a cash equivalent action that could potentially cost them $100,000.
And yet, a chance sexual encounter is exactly that. And people do factor finances into pregnancy, pretty intensely. One of the major factors in terminating a pregnancy often is "I can't afford to have the child".
Higher wages, cheaper housing and free access to healthcare would all be very effective incentives for people to have children. Without them, the numbers are only ever going to go down.
One argument for drug laws was to have a productive citizenry because we needed every dollar of economic oomph to fight the commies, or whoever.
See also opium dens bad yo.
Take it the next step, Armchair. You are an anti-abortion advocate. On that basis, government requires you to pay a woman $200,000 to have a child. Government can even do it on the basis you prefer, where the woman says, "Okay, cool, $200,00, and then she goes up for adoption." You okay with that?
The point is, though, that it's their choice. If someone chooses to work for me because I pay them, that's fine. If someone chooses to let someone live in their house to get the mortgage paid, that's fine. It's when the state makes those decisions for them that there's a problem.
The reason black women have worse health outcomes is because they're fat. This is well established.
In your racist brain it's well established.
Hypothetically, if I was an anti-abortion advocate?
Absolutely. Life is important, and well worth the money.
From a fiscal and demand perspective?
-There's massive demand for babies for adoption. Such a situation would find the babies rapidly adopted into loving homes. And given that the taxes paid by a new US citizen over their lifetime will well exceed the $200,000 paid, it's very much worth it.
And when the state chooses to force someone pay nearly $100,000 in child support for a child they didn't want? And would've preferred to have been aborted, but they weren't given the choice?
Yeah, the party of science indeed.
Even more for fostering.
Kids aren't babies.
One of the more practical issues in the adoption circles is that people like to adopt babies and toddlers over children, especially older children. That's why you see a lot of international adoptions, despite the costs and legal hurdles. Because families want babies/toddlers preferentially.
(The other major issue is one of entangling legal concerns. No family wants to adopt a child, only to have it stolen away 3 years later due to legal battles/concerns from the original family)
Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. If you want to engage seriously, try again.
You really don't know?
Here are the stats.
https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/6270-children-entering-foster-care-by-age-group#detailed/1/any/false/574,1729,37,871,870,573,869,36,868,867/1889,2616,2617,2618,2619,122/13037,13038
I know you are, but what am I?
This from the party of 'mild inconvenience.'
Yeah, you're really sciencing it up with the fat black women theorem.
Ever heard of confounding variables?
Sarcastr0, our system treats blacks better than it does everyone else. They just don’t take advantage of it.
Talk to a black person. Any black person. I beg of you. Before you drop another ignorant turd like this.
“It’s saying you can’t kill somebody just as a matter of convenience, suck it up for a few months and let them live.”
Dude. You know that you have openly stated that you can kill to protect your property and that you think that you can do this independent of any threat to your life.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/06/02/are-people-allowed-to-use-deadly-force-to-defend-property/?comments=true#comments
You: “As I remarked the other day, property IS life. People spend the finite hours and days of their lives acquiring it, it doesn’t just fall into their lives as they go about doing whatever they please. Who robs me of my property robs me of the time that went into obtaining it. Precious hours of my life that I will never have back.
When you add up the man-hours destroyed by your average burglar, he’s a murderer several times over. The only reason you don’t recognize this is that he steals a few years here, a few years there, instead of a whole lifetime at once.”
You’re literally whining about not being able to kill people over stuff, let you’re demanding women “suck it up for a few months.” You couldn’t be more of a caricature of a sociopathic conservative if you tried.
And the kicker to all this is that your “pro-life” (LOL) position apparently comes from your Catholic faith…but claiming “property is life” is straight up heretical and would find ZERO support in the catechism going back to Aquinas.
Our society likes child support. It doesn't like pregnancy as something under the direction of the State.
The responsibilities associated with pregnancy and the support responsibility associated with fatherhood are something we as a society view differently, for better or worse.
You can argue all you want that it should be otherwise. You will lose, unless you can change our culture in some pretty fundamental ways.
>‘body seizing’ is not treated by the courts as a form of slavery,
Politically speaking, that's the interesting part here. The modern zeitgeist is that nothing that can compare to the horrors of slavery i.e., no set of facts, including abortion, can be analogized to it.
So who decides? You? Your commie transgender professors?
Let me guess. It's whitey's fault! White racism is the reason black women are fat and have poor health outcomes. I use my guns to force black women to stuff their faces with potato chips, purchased with SNAP benefits of course.
Even confronted with tangible evidence of worse outcomes for non-white women, people still get stroppy at the merest hint of the posssibility of institutional or societal racism.
So THAT science is bad, but you still wanna lean on science.
Realizing that our system does not treat black folks well doesn't mean you need to jump directly to whatever whitey blaming nonsense you're putting into my mouth. I'm a white dude too, and not into any kind of racial original sin. So get that chip off your shoulder.
Conspirator Will Baude has a great discussion about this on his podcast:
https://www.podparadise.com/Podcast/1562902209/Listen/1651161600/0
People who cite podcasts to support a claim in an internet debate forum can whiz off. Like anybody is going to listen to a whole podcast, then come back to argue the finer points.
Sarcastr0, our system treats blacks better than it does everyone else. They just don't take advantage of it.
If you'll notice, I did not offer it as an argument, but as an opportunity to educate oneself via a podcast by a well regarded Conspirator at U Chicago and an actual CRT practitioner that touches exactly on the issue at hand.
My argument stands independently of that link.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't check out that link! It's engaging and good!! And then if you disagree, you can have more pointed arguments than 'blacks fat.'
Prof. Volokh banned Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland for poking fun at conservatives . . . but this comment meets his approval.
The Volokh Conspirators can't understand why better schools are disinclined to hire movement conservatives for faculty positions . . . this blog just whines about it, incessantly, punctuated periodically with vile racial slurs..
'Precious hours of my life that I will never have back.'
You are therefore allowed to murder anyone who puts you on hold.
With idiot arguments like that, you'd think you'd worry more about what inflation does to a person's property than not killing another human being.
You leftists cry for the wrong people. Why do you put value on the lives of worthless criminals like George Floyd?
Academia that becomes law is a lot of modern conservative jurisprudence. That's Clarence Thomas's whole thing. Current Fifth Circuit does it a lot too. It's Randy Barnett and Josh Blackman's raison d'etre.
This is exactly what liberals should be doing when the Court is 6-3 against them.
Armchair Lawyer, every male who engages in unprotected sex knows that child support is one possible outcome, and the fact that so many males do it anyway is hardly a testament to the rationality of the human male.
But that's different than actually being pregnant, because whether the pregnancy is terminated or allowed to go to term, the person feeling the impact will be the pregnant woman. Abortion carries risks, not having an abortion carries risks. So she's the decision maker.
No, it's not fair, but the reason it's not fair is biology. Pregnancy is different.
Arguing against the other side's penumbras and emanations?
I’ve gotta break something to you: 2+2=5 isn’t something anybody decided, it's a perfect universal truth. It’s the sort of thing that can’t NOT be true.
Good vs Evil? Except theologically, that’s opinion.
I don't hate America, I just am aware of the Is/Ought issue in philosophy. The DOI stating noble opinions doesn't make them objective facts, even if I share those opinions.
It's a lot more nuanced then that. Forcing men to support children they didn't want when the woman had the opportunity to abort has a lot of opposition.
If you ask people "Should fathers be required to support their children," then yes, most people will answer in the affirmative.
Forcing men to support children they didn’t want when the woman had the opportunity to abort has a lot of opposition.
Congrats - you pissed off both the right and the left. This doesn't have a lot of opposition.
The natural constituency of divorced men and deadbeats are loud but small in the scheme of things. They have a corner of the Internet, to be sure. But that's about it.
There's a massive demand for white and Asian babies, and that demand isn't filled because of birth control and abortion. No one wants the black babies of drug-addicted teenagers. That's why people go overseas to adopt.
White babies, yes. Non-white babies, no.
https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/african-american-babies-and-boys-least-likely-be-adopted-study-shows-1610
....and every female who engages in unprotected sex knows that pregnancy is one possible outcome.
Dr. Ed, again, how is that relevant? I keep hearing your side make that argument, but so what?
So, you've made a statement. It's "not fair".
So society can help make it fair, by allowing society a role in that choice. Society decided that men were responsible, via child support, to "make it fair" for a child, even one they didn't want, that occurred through luck and poor choices. Society can do the same in terms of pregnancy.
As to the woman being responsible for not waiting for the ring, this is how it used to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C11MzbEcHlw
And saying that she was pregnant, even if she wasn't, was a standard tactic to push a boyfriend into marriage.
Armchair Lawyer, except it's not an apples to apples comparison, and not even close.
Child support is about supporting a child who is already here. Abortion is about preventing a child from being here. And neither the state nor the man can make the decision about whether the child gets here because it's the woman's body that's going to be impacted. So what we really have is two deadlines. The deadline for the man to decide if he wants to be a father is when the sperm leaves his body; the deadline for a woman to decide comes later. The man and the woman are both aware that those are the deadlines.
Now, is that fair? Not completely. But, as conservatives are so fond of reminding us, life isn't fair, and the outcome is no real surprise.
You're arguing in circles here Krychek,
If "life isn't fair," then a society where people can tell a woman "you can't abort a child after 16 weeks" is entirely reasonable. And the counterargument is "life isn't fair". Even if the argument is "my body, my choice".
No, Armchair Lawyer, that's even less of an apples to apples comparison. There's a major difference between something that's unfair as a fact of life because that's the way biology works, versus something that's unfair because that's how the legislature designed it. Please try to keep up.
Krychek...
Item 1: Law that says father must may child support. Act of legislature. "Life is unfair"
Item 2: Law that says woman can't abort healthy fetus past 16 weeks. "Life is unfair".
Both how the legislature designed it. What's the difference?
If you're so concerned about men having to pay child support, I'd think you would support abortion rights, because even if that doesn't get all men off the hook it will get some of them off the hook. Half a solution is better than none. But of course that's not your position, because you're pissed at women, and that's really what this is about.
And here's the answer to your question: A 16 week ban on abortions (or any ban at any stage of the pregnancy for that matter) is an artificial line drawn by the legislature. When conception happens -- at the moment sperm leaves the man's body -- is not. And, once a child has been born, somebody needs to support it, even if it shouldn't have been brought into the world. You're comparing things that aren't comparable.
AL, just because you can't understand someone saying "Child support is about supporting a child who is already here. Abortion is about preventing a child from being here" doesn't mean they're arguing in circles.
It means you've begged the question so hard you can't understand anything else.
That would explain a lot if true.
The child sex abuse material viewer is cracking jokes about molestation. Classy.
He was likely molested as a child.
This isn't 4chan; do better.
Being molested explains knowledge of pregnancy complications? You people are completely deranged.
I have. They almost universally have a complex where they see everything through a racial lens, and even the successful ones make excuses for black criminals and think white racism is a "major problem." That's why I do my best to have nothing to do with them.
Nah - your type is cowards. You didn't talk to a black person.
To scared.
Go collect some guns to feel like a man.
And society was better for it. And women also knew their place in society. Women didn't dare to mouth off to men, and blacks didn't dare to mouth off to whites. We had a stable, successful society with the greatest middle class the world has ever seen. Clearly, "equality" hasn't worked.
Some have speculated to a shared genetic link to obesity and diabetes.
He proudly announced he's looked at child porn because "Hunter Biden." He cannot do better.
Well, not exactly . . .
(The original)
no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I heard somewhere that Cigarettes might be linked to Lung Cancer
Go back to Stormfront, troll.
Look at the statistics, you fucking moron.
So the elementary question to ask is who is 'we.' Because it doesn't sound like women and blacks got much of a chance to really enjoy that great middle class life.
Also check the alcoholism rates back then.
Like so many, you worship a time in history that isn't real.
Women may have known their place in society -- but they also had fathers and brothers to make sure that their husbands did as well...
Surrogacy is actually very relevant to this discussion. The Supreme Court of New Jersey famously held that surrogacy is slavery. It said the 13th Amendment prohibits surrogacy contracts from being enforced. In New Jersey, unless the decision has been overturned (it was decades ago), surrogacy contracts are unenforcible. The New Jersey Supreme Court said a court can’t compel a birth mother to give up a child based on a financial contract. If she wants to keep the baby, the 13th Amendment requires ignoring the contract and treating the matter like any other disputed custody situation. Custody has to be decided based on the best interests of the child. And both mothers get at least visitation unless one is manifestly unfit by ordinary child custody criteria.
The thing you need to understand the role of women in the 1950s is how electrification and refrigeration changed society. Keeping the home fires burning was more than a metaphor -- women were highly skilled in food preservation and it was valuable to their families, which would otherwise starve. All of the stuff we depend upon, starting with microwave ovens, didn't exist.
All of these quite-essential things were rendered irrelevant by post-WWII technologies and that led to the issues that feminists legitimately complained about.
Ed, it was the Pill, not refrigerators.
Anyone can stoke a fire and preserve food.
I did check -- with the CDC -- and much to my surprise, I found that:
"Per capita rates of alcohol consumption rose approximately 21% during the 1960s and 10.3% during the 1970s"
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000821.htm
So much for alcoholism in the 1950s, much to my surprise....
Ed, think for a moment why 'Per capita rates of alcohol consumption' might not be the stat to think about when discussing the role of women, blacks, and white dudes in the 1950s as compared to the 1970s.
Women and blacks were better off then. A society run by white men is a rising tide that lifts all boats.
That's correct as well.