The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions
Alaskan Natives, Alaska Airlines, and Alaskan students.
Please enjoy the latest edition of Short Circuit, a weekly feature written by a bunch of people at the Institute for Justice.
Alaska's sparse population creates unique educational challenges. To address these, the state created "correspondence programs," in which a student's public school uses the post office or float planes to deliver lessons and then pick up and grade assignments. In 1997 and again in 2014, the law was broadened to allow parents more freedom to design their children's curriculum and receive reimbursement for certain educational expenses, including tuition at nonpublic schools. But now the program is under attack, and IJ has teamed up with a group of Alaska families who benefit from the program to defend it in court.
- FOIA allows agencies to withhold "confidential" and "commercial" information, but could that category possibly include the bare names of the contractors that sell execution drugs to the Bureau of Prisons? D.C. Circuit: Maybe, but not on this record. (Concurrence: But remember that "maybe" doesn't mean "yes.")
- Pro tip from the Second Circuit: The George Costanza defense ("Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?") is a poor basis on which to withdraw your guilty plea to extortion for threatening to nonconsensually publish nude photos of your ex-girlfriend unless she takes you back.
- Third Circuit: "Statutory silences, like awkward silences, tempt speech." But, we are reminded, silence from Congress demands a different response than does silence from one's Tinder dates.
- In a scheme clearly designed to frustrate writers of pithy summaries of appellate decisions, Johnson & Johnson, facing tens of thousands of lawsuits over the (possible) negative health effects of its baby powder, creates a new corporation to which it gives its baby-powder business, all the liability from the baby-powder lawsuits, and also a promise to pay the damages from those lawsuits. Then, the new corporation files for bankruptcy to facilitate the orderly distribution of money to claimants. Can they do that? Third Circuit: This is bankruptcy, and that giant promise to pay for damages seems like it stops the new corporation's bank from being rupt. Petition dismissed.
- In which the Third Circuit resorts to Webster's for the definition of the word "if," if that's the sort of thing you're into.
- There are probably lawyers who have been champing at the bit to see what the Third Circuit was going to say about how issue preclusion and law of the case apply to multidistrict litigation about price-fixing in the drywall industry. If you're one of them, we're happy for you.
- If there's anyone who loves precision in English usage, it's Bryan Garner. But if there's anyone else, it's your Short Circuit editors. So kudos to this Fourth Circuit panel for holding that the statement that a doctor "misread" a test result could be defamatory when all agree that she actually did not read the test result (and might have been medically justified in not doing so). SNOOTs of the world, unite!
- Does insurance that covers "direct physical loss of or damage" to property cover business interruptions caused by COVID-19, since, you know, COVID virions are physical things that can touch stuff? The Fifth Circuit once again holds "no."
- Normally a case like this would fly under the radar, but when you subscribe to Short Circuit, you can be sure you'll hear about it when the Fifth Circuit holds that the Second Amendment protects the right of people subject to domestic violence restraining orders to keep and bear arms.
- Sixth Circuit: Government employees have a First Amendment right to speak on matters of public concern. But depending on the speech—"Let me be the first on record to have the balls to say Tamir Rice should have been shot and I am glad he is dead"—they don't necessarily get to stay government employees.
- Forklift driver hits a bump in a warehouse. She falls onto the floor and stops. Forklift does not. Now short one leg, she sues the forklift manufacturer. Her expert wants to testify that the accident could have been prevented through this safety device called a "door." District court: Sorry, under the Daubert test that expert's excluded. Seventh Circuit: Yeah, but that's literally all the district court said, which is not enough of a reason to exclude.
- DEA seizes $146,000 in cash from a man's vehicle. After receiving a notice of forfeiture, the man's attorney sends in paperwork. But, oops! It was the wrong paperwork to force the government to go to court, a "petition for remission" instead of a "claim." After the time limit has run he files a lawsuit anyway. District court: I lack subject matter jurisdiction. Seventh Circuit: Actually, the court probably had jurisdiction. But the government wins anyway.
- Man standing outside a Los Angeles housing complex is stopped by police, who frisk him, find car key, go to nearby parking lot, and click the key until they locate the car—complete with a handgun under the front seat. A Fourth Amendment violation? Ninth Circuit: Yes, but a harmless one as to the man's most serious convictions (Hobbs Act robbery and conspiracy). But his other conviction (brandishing the weapon) should be set aside.
- In which the Ninth Circuit does a deep dive into the traditional fishing practices of the Metlakatkan Indian Community and concludes that an 1891 statute secures the Metlakatkans' right to non-exclusive off-reservation fishing in areas where they have fished since time immemorial. So does Alaska's effort to limit the Metlakatkans' fishing in certain areas violate that right? The district court should figure that out on remand.
- Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air Industries provide paid leave for jury duty, bereavement, and sick leave, but not for short-term military leave. A violation of the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act? Ninth Circuit: Yeah, maybe. This pilots' class action should go to trial.
- A macabre facet of Eighth Amendment death penalty litigation is that a prisoner challenging his method of execution must propose an alternative he prefers. Here, a convicted murderer on Georgia death row proposes a firing squad in lieu of lethal injection because, he says, he's taking medicine that will render the sedative ineffective and has a vein condition that will make the injection procedure inhumane. Eleventh Circuit (after being reversed by the Supreme Court on a procedural issue): Firing squad is a valid alternative, and the medication-related claim is both timely and viable. But the vein-related claim needs more facts to support it.
- Indigent prisoners can generally file federal civil-rights suits without having to pay court fees up front. But the Prison Litigation Reform Act deters repeat vexatious lawsuits by taking away that privilege after "three strikes" for cases dismissed as frivolous, malicious, or failing to state a claim. If a case is dismissed for failure to exhaust administrative remedies, is that a "strike"? Eleventh Circuit (en banc): Only if the case is dismissed because failure to exhaust was apparent on the face of the complaint, not if the defendant had to introduce evidence. Concurrence to district courts: Stop having prisoners fill out a check-box about exhaustion because that's not how litigation normally works and exhaustion is more complicated than a yes/no answer.
- And in en banc news, the Ninth Circuit will not reconsider its opinion that "and" does not mean "or" in a case about the First Step Act of 2018.
- And in further en banc news, the Fifth Circuit will not reconsider its opinion affirming a denial of qualified immunity when Louisiana prisoners were kept in custody months after serving their sentences. Seven judges voted in favor of rehearing, but none of them wrote to explain why.
- And in still more en banc news, the D.C. Circuit will not reconsider its opinion upholding a rule allowing nonimmigrant students to work in the U.S. post-graduation. Two judges think the rule can't be squared with the text of the Immigration and Nationality Act, but the case needed five for a grant. (Ed.: Why weren't six votes required when there are ten active judges on the D.C. Circuit? Two of the judges did not participate, so petitioners needed only five of eight.)
- And in amicus brief news, IJ is urging the Supreme Court to reverse a Sixth Circuit decision that interpreted a federal statute to allow the IRS to summons—without notice or opportunity to object—financial records from any innocent third party that the IRS believes might assist them in collecting someone else's unpaid taxes. We think the Fourth Amendment might have something to say about that.
Friends, do you like donuts? Well, if you pass through Conway, New Hampshire, you can stop at Leavitt's Country Bakery to sample what local news called the best donuts in the state. You'll be able to spot it by the mural painted on its façade by local art students … unless town zoning officials get their way. They've decided that the mural is no mural at all, but rather an illegal sign. Why? Because the mural depicts baked goods—if it depicted anything else, it would be perfectly legal. But government officials don't get to tell people what they can and can't paint, which is why IJ has teamed up with bakery owner Sean Young to defend his First Amendment rights.
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Sixth Circuit: Government employees have a First Amendment right to speak on matters of public concern. Unless the employer [and then this court] doesn't like the speech because its icky and kinda rude, then they don't.
It's a tough issue, but saying that a 12 year old deserved to die does implicate a government interest.
Rice was already dead. So there was no threat.
Content based. If he said the cop was at fault, he wouldn't have been fired, correct?
Wrong question: if he said he wished he could
Shoot a cop who was killed would he have been fired? I think we know the obvious answer.
Hypothetical speech restrictions are the best restrictions, amirite?
I mean he posed a hypo, so why not mine?
His example was only hypothetical as to who claimed the cop was at fault. Lots of actual public employees said that, and none were fired over it.
Your hypothetical involves an imaginary punishment for an imaginary statement, so it's much farther from actuality. See also the case that Ed Grinberg cited below, and the standard the Supreme Court applied there.
His hypo only makes sense if marquardt said something completely different about Tamir. It dishonestly frames the issue.
He’s trying to make it seem like he simply said “Tamir was at fault” instead of “the cop was at fault.” And pointing out that no one would be fired for the latter (which is true). This would be viewpoint based restriction. Which is a stronger position for the plaintiff
But it’s not what happened. It was decision based on “content” not “viewpoint.” And content is easier for the government to control. The content was way worse! He didn’t say: Tamir was at fault or even simply that he “deserved to die.”
So my hypo is the correct way to frame this issue.
“Let me be the first on record to have the balls to say Officer X should have been shot and I am glad he is dead.“
“I am upset I did not get the chance to kill the little pig criminal fucker.”
“How would you feel if you were walking in the park and some fucking pig pointed a gun in your face? Would you look to him as a hero?”
Would the city be justified in letting go an EMS captain who said this? Bearing in mind he has to respond to calls that might involve officers?
In your hypo, are you outraged by the killing of a twelve-year-old cop who was 5'7" tall and 195 pounds? Did the imaginary writer making the imaginary comment about the imaginary cop who committed an imaginary crime work for the same city as the imaginary cop? (When a government employee expresses a desire to have killed another government employee, that touches much more on the government as an employer.)
I'm just trying to understand the bounds of the hypo.
Oh we’re doing the Tamir wasn’t a kid because he was a monstrous black man thing, I see. This isn’t a good faith engagement and you’re also glad a child is dead. Enjoy being a terrible person.
That’s closer to the truth but he didn’t just say that he “deserved to die.” That’s a closer call on the speech issue.
What he said was:
“I am upset I did not get the chance to kill the little criminal fucker.”
Keep in mind he’s EMS. He’s expressing a regret he didn’t kill someone who was recently a patient of his agency. Why would you ever trust this person to provide care to people when he’s expressing a desire to kill?
Yes, that is the key point. The court held that the speech was of "public concern" (as opposed to merely "private concern", such as, for example, hurling ethnic slurs at co-workers, which would not be protected) and was therefore entitled to First Amendment protection, but that is not the end of the inquiry.
The court then proceeded to see if the city had an overriding interest in preventing such speech, and maintaining community confidence in the EMS service qualified. Merely preserving politeness or civility or not upsetting people would not have been enough. This guy was an EMS captain. If he had been a clerk at the DMV, the result may very well have been different.
In how many other contexts does the same logic apply? Confidence in university professors? Police? Museum curation? Public hospital nurses and doctors?
Why wouldn’t a DMV clerk be held to a similar standard, given the vastly higher number of people a DMV clerk interacts with (or should, if they’re working efficiently) each day and the fact that people in practice need DMV services? What's the limiting principle?
Because the DMV clerk wouldn’t be tasked with responding to shooting victims? Readler explains all this pretty well in the opinion why it’s significant he’s in EMS.
I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I would add that while you are correct that the job matters in doing the Pickering balancing, if a DMV employee who worked with the public said something like, "Jews are subhuman and I shouldn't have to deal with them," and that got out to the public, I would bet that DMV employee would lose a First Am. challenge to a discharge.
"In how many other contexts does the same logic apply? "
In how many of the alternate contexts you mention would the person have, under normal conditions, the opportunity to affect whether another person lives or dies? The only ones you mention to which that would apply are police, nurses and doctors.
And yes, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that someone who is publicly saying that they want to kill someone ought not be a police officer, a nurse or a doctor.
I don't know I would say he deserved to die per se, but it's a pretty safe bet that his being removed from the Earth saved Americans money down the road, which is a matter of public concern.
Fuck off.
Do you deny that the average 85 IQ black is a net economic negative to society?
“because its icky and kinda rude.”
Good lord. You always manage to sink to new lows. “Icky and kind of rude” is a stunningly dishonest understatement about what he said and the context he said it in.
“ Let me be the first on record to have the balls to say Tamir Rice should have been shot and I am glad he is dead.” (Keep in mind Tamir was 12)
“I am upset I did not get the chance to kill the little criminal fucker.” (Keep in mind Tamir was 12)
“ How would you feel if you were walking in the park and some ghetto rat pointed a gun in your face? Would you look to him as a hero?” (Keep in mind Tamir was 12 and he didn’t “point the gun in anyone’s face”)
Then of course he lied: “ Marquardt denied making the posts, deleted them, and created a new post disavowing their content.”
So the statements weren’t “icky and kind of rude” they were murderous depraved and racist. AND ABOUT A CHILD.
And he wasn’t some nameless bureaucrat: he was an EMT! Responsible for care of people…possibly people like Tamir. Don’t you think that falls into question his ability to respond to the shootings by police or of people (and Kids) he considers “ghetto rats” with the appropriate care and urgency?
Judge Chad Readler, a Trump judge if there ever was one picked up on this obvious fact:
“Carlton’s finding that the posts could undermine EMS’s pledge to “treat[] our patients with dignity and respect” by portraying the unit as “insensitive” and “uncaring” was also a reasonable view. Recall that Marquardt’s posts called Rice (who had been an EMS patient) a “little criminal fucker” and “ghetto rat.” Those statements are at odds with EMS constituents’ “need to believe that those meant to help them in their most dire moments are fair-minded, unbiased, and worthy of their trust.””
And:
“ When we do, context and precedent leads us to the conclusion that the City’s interest in preventing the disintegration of public trust in Cleveland EMS’s ability to carry out its public service mission overrides Marquardt’s interest. An EMS Captain in the very division that transported Rice (a twelve-year-old shot by the police) to the hospital called the boy a “ghetto rat” and expressed a desire to have been the one to kill him.”
So Bob from Ohio manages to disgrace himself once again. A dishonest distortion of the truth of the situation. Callousness about the death of a child. a take so brazenly awful it’s too much for Chad Readler.
Great job you fucking ghoul.
I'm a constant disappointment to you.
And I’ll take this weak-ass response as a sign that once again you know I’ve got you dead to rights on your shameful wrongness and have no rejoinder. Maybe take this time to reflect on that and how much disrepute you’re bringing to yourself, your community, and the bar by your dishonesty and lack of conscience.
I stopped bantering with you long ago. You can "take" my response any way you want.
You stopped because you know I’m consistently right about you.
Seriously, disprove something I said here. What’s incorrect?
Not a child. A black being raised by a single mother.
You’re a truly bad person. Like despicable on so many levels.
And you're a traitor to your own race.
Cool.
He's. A. Troll.
I mean, that's not by any means mutually exclusive with being a terrible excuse for a human being, but he's saying these things for attention. You're just giving him what he wants.
" the statements weren’t “icky and kind of rude” they were murderous depraved and racist." -- yes. But had he simply written, "The shooting was justified, because the kid had a real-looking gun", wouldn't he still have been fired? The things that justified the firing -- that his co-workers would shun him and the public wouldn't trust him -- would still be there simply from his stance on the public issue, however politely expressed. If shunning by co-workers and the public is enough, there doesn't seem to be much speech protection left.
cf. Rankin v. McPherson
Apparently being glad that the president got shot is less icky than being glad that a teenager pointing a (as it turns out, fake) pistol at random people got shot. Interesting...
12 isn’t a teenager.
And it’s not “ interesting” because the facts were completely different.
McPherson was hoping other people might get a particular person. The president. Someone she’s highly unlikely to come into contact with.
Marquardt was expressing a desire to kill a child and a “ghetto rat.” While the specific person was dead (again a child), he’s expressing a murderous antipathy to category of people. This group of people necessarily includes people he might be tasked with treating as an EMS officer. How can EMS assure the public that this guy won’t shirk his duties (or worse) when he is confronted with someone he deems a “ghetto rat.”
Readler explains this all pretty well.
By that standard, 90% of blacks should be excluded as well from any job where they may have to interact with whites, as they hate us.
Well maybe the hate YOU. But given that you’re a pathetic racist dork with mass murder fantasies, I think you’ll find most whites would hate you too,
Look at the sack dance the blacks did when OJ was acquitted, knowing full well he was guilty. They hate whites, and any whites who don't realize it are traitors.
Re: USERRA, the Obama Administration was a huge violator, and Eric Holder did not care.
Mmmm...., donuts.
This is, of course, the correct and best reply to the original post.
Having said that, LawTalkingGuy and F.D. Wolf are 100% correct on the First Am. employee speech case. The point isn't whether it's "icky" speech, the point is whether the speech sufficiently interferes with the government agency's ability to do it's job that the government interest outweighs the employee's interest in the speech. While, like so many con law balancing tests, this "weighs" two non-quantifiable interests, it's clear under existing precedent that statements available to the public evincing general racism by employees whose job involves dealing with / serving members of that race as part of their job weigh heavily on the government interest side
"In January 2023, a lawsuit was filed challenging the correspondence program."
But neither the Reason nor the IJ article say who filed it.
Democrats?
I’m not following. This post says who filed it: “a group of Alaska families who benefit from the program”. The linked IJ page has this same information and also includes the complaint, which contains additional information (on pages 4-7) of the named plaintiffs.
Edit: I see my error in reading too fast, which I will leave undisturbed as a badge of shame. But at any rate, the complaint does have the information you're interested in.
Yep. I see it now. The complainants are mostly public school teachers.
Where were those judges when Bill Clinton was deposed?
Forgot about that bonkers Oldham dissent in the Fifth Circuit over-detention case. Glad it’s not being reheard. One thing that distinguishes Trumpy judges from other judges is that they often keep writing until they say something truly deranged. In Oldham’s case he had some technical reasons to bar the claim under Heck. Could have ended there.
But he keeps going and going until he gets to some ultimate big lawyer brain: we only held that 30 extra days beyond the sentence is too long, so it’s not clearly established that knowingly holding someone 17 extra days is unconstitutional! I mean how could any official possibly know that’s unconstitutional?!?
JFC. What a clown.
Oldham is the genius who gave us, "The companies challenging the blatantly unconstitutional Texas social media law decided to rely on binding Supreme Court 1A precedent rather than going off on some frolic about the original meaning of the 1A."
(And that doesn't even address his procedural shenanigans in that case. The district court had enjoined the enforcement of the law. The fifth circuit issued a stay of that injunction in a one-sentence ruling — and then waited 6 months to actually issue an opinion.)
He's really campaigning to be the worst judge on the 5th circuit. And that's saying a lot, since we're talking about the 5th circuit.
A macabre facet of Eighth Amendment death penalty litigation is that a prisoner challenging his method of execution must propose an alternative he prefers.
Macabre but necessary. The constitutional text is overwhelmingly clear there are some situations where the government can execute people so therefore there must be some constitutional method of execution. The rule prevents criminals from hiding behind a log: "No, not THAT method... or that method... or that method..." as they litigate to infinity and run out the clock.
That being said, the turn to lethal injection was a mistake for a whole mess of reasons. Guns are reliable and bullets are cheap, we should simply bring back firing squads. Hanging people is also highly reliable. And both are absolutely constitutionally unassailable under the George Washington rule because they were actually in use at the time the Constitution was enacted.
I'm not sure it logically follows that because something is constitutional, there must necessarily be a constitutional way to implement it. The constitutionality of the thing itself, and the universe of ways to implement it, are separate questions.
That aside, if we are to have the death penalty (which I agree is constitutional though I also think is bad policy), the problem is that we're trying to sanitize a procedure that is not sanitizable. With lethal injection we tried turning it into a medical procedure. It's not. It's the deliberate and intentional and vindictive killing of a human being. The advantage to the guillotine, or firing squad, or gas chamber, is that they don't pretend to be anything else. So make it bloody. Make it gruesome. Do it in a way that the death row detail has nightmares for a week. Put its ugliness on full display, complete with TV cameras. So long as the legislature signed off on it, under an originalist interpretation it would even be constitutional.
The mere fact that we implement it by sneaking around behind closed doors in the dark of night and try to turn it put as pretty a face on it as we can tells you everything you need to know about the death penalty.
Well said.
I think you're already playing at a deficit if you take the position something is constitutional, but there's no constitutional way to implement it, particularly when the founders implemented it in a particular way. "Oh, sure, the constitution says Congress has the power to establish Post Offices, but there's no constitutional way to do it, so therefore the Post Office is unconstitutional, despite the fact the Post Office existed in the Founding Era." Nobody would even pretend to find that persuasive, but that's where we're at with arguing that every means of enacting the death penalty is unconstitutional.
It is the intentional killing of a person but it's not vindictive, it's utilitarian. These are some of the most dangerous people on the planet. Locking them up for life without parole is good, but if one person makes one mistake one time then the inmate will kill again. The only reliable way to neutralize the threat is either solitary confinement as intense as the Silverstein Suite or an execution. As a matter of policy, I'd be willing to reduce all executions to life in ADX Florence, but the same people who complain about the death penalty complain about that too.
I would definitely be down for live streams of executions by firing squad. Full disclosure and I'm sure there would be some innovative remixes.
If I thought about it long enough I could probably come up with an admittedly unlikely scenario under which it would be impossible for the government to constitutionally operate the post office. And i certainly don't agree that just because the framers did something that it was necessarily constitutional. Most states, for example, had blasphemy laws at the time of the founding.
But rather than spend an extended amount of discussion on those particular rabbit trails, the death penalty is not utilitarian. Most murderers are not Charles Manson or Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, and there are boatloads of research on the subject. Most murderers did not know when they awoke on the morning of the murder that they would commit a murder before the day was over. Most murders are the result of situations that got out of hand. And murderers actually have one of the lowest recidivism rates of any type of criminals.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished for what they do; the question is how much punishment is necessary. I once defended a young man who, in the midst of a particularly nasty divorce, ran his wife over with his car and killed her. No one is seriously suggesting that he be given a medal for what he did, but probably no one seriously thinks he's likely to do it again either. It's now out of his system and he's probably no more dangerous now than anyone else in his demographic group randomly selected from the population. Let him spend a couple of decades in prison growing up and maybe he will still have something to contribute.
Again, well said.
There is a gulf between lawyer arguments and being humane. There is a gulf between cold legal reasoning and the warm feelings that keep the human race going forward in one piece, even if imperfectly.
If I were writing the law, there wouldn't be a death penalty. There'd be genuine life in prison, without any possibility of leaving short of your conviction being overturned. That possibility would be why I wouldn't chose to have a death penalty.
That said, I don't write the laws, and the death penalty is unambiguously constitutional. And almost all of the operational problems with it's execution are due to lawfare by death penalty opponents, who see every botched execution as a PR triumph.
And, honestly, my sympathy for the suffering the guilty go through in a botched execution is limited by the memory of just how much agony doctors have put me through keeping me alive and mostly in one piece. If I, relatively innocent, could get through such experiences, the guilty can damned well man up and endure stuff they earned.
I wouldn't deliberately subject them to pain, though, because torture, even if earned, is bad for the torturer. (And, yeah, prolonged solitary confinement is just a more subtle form of torture.)
Keeping people alive can be tough, killing them is absurdly easy, and a 100% reliable painless execution is trivially simple to do, if you could change execution methods without the whole legal circus starting from scratch. The only reason people suffer during executions is that the opponents of the death penalty find it useful.
And that is deplorable, but it's not on advocates of the penalty.
"And almost all of the operational problems with it’s execution are due to lawfare by death penalty opponents, who see every botched execution as a PR triumph."
I think the death penalty can be morally justified in certain rare cases.
However, I don't trust our government to implement it in a way that is fair and/or even handed.
That said, I think death penalty proponents need to stop letting the anti-death penalty activists define "botched execution".
You held an execution. Is the prisoner dead? Yes?
Okay, that is a successful execution even if it ended up being more brutal than you intended.
And if you knew it very likely would turn out "more brutal than you intended?"
Or didn't take reasonable precautions?
Intent is not the whole story.
And my impression is that some places don't really care if it's brutal or not, even if they don't deliberately set out to make it so.
Dead prisoner = successful execution. Nothing else you mention is relevant to whether an execution was successful or botched.
In general I don't think we should have the death penalty, but as long as we do, it should be ugly and brutal and it should be seen to be ugly and brutal.
You are begging the question, Matthew, by defining "successful" to mean only "The prisoner is dead."
I can just as well define it to mean "The execution was carried out in a painless and humane manner."
"I can just as well define it to mean “The execution was carried out in a painless and humane manner.”"
You can, but why should I, or death penalty supporters accept that definition?
Just to piont out some hypocricy on the death penalty. - Baze case tried to stop the death penalty due to the remote possibility to inflict pain on guilty resulting from ineffective drug coctail. At the same time, pro abortionists have no qualms about the pain inflicted on the innocents.
Is there a difference between subjecting someone to pain in order to save their life, and doing it to kill them?
Seems to me that there is.
Yeah, the guy who's dying painfully might reasonably think "it's only going to last a couple of minutes", and at least merits some suffering if he killed someone, whereas the guy who's going through torture for medical reasons has no such refuge, nor has he earned the pain. But he's expected to endure it all the same.
I wouldn't deliberately impose pain on somebody just for the sake of their hurting, but it's not for nothing that people say "life IS pain"; The person who achieves old age without having suffered serious episodes of it is a rarity, and a murderer doesn't even have standing to complain about it.
Try having a dislocated ankle reduced without anesthesia some time, when the only place they can hold onto your leg is where the bones are shattered. That one set a new personal best for me, and I didn't whine about it, and even thanked the doctor afterwards.
In any case, leash the lawyers, and we can adopt inert gas asphyxiation, and they can get their totally painless and reliable deaths. Oh, but that would make it harder to fight the death penalty, so it's off the table.
Huh, Lampposts here says he wouldn't support the death penalty, yet he occasionally advocates for extrajudicial murder of public officials.
I agree with you, at least in a perfect world. But in the real world if we had no death penalty we wouldn't have life in prison either. The people who crusade against the death penalty would instead fixate on life without parole. Once they got rid of that the next target would be life sentences with parole. And so forth. As long as the attention is focused on the death penalty the life without parole sentences are still available.
"I once defended a young man who, in the midst of a particularly nasty divorce, ran his wife over with his car and killed her."
You are describing someone who deserved a firing squad. To the extent you managed to avoid this on his behalf, then congratulations on your skill, but you are describing a miscarriage of justice. He's too dangerous to have in society nor should he live a cushy life in a soft American prison on the taxpayer dime. If the laws on the books aren't enough to get this person executed, then the laws need to be amended. We are far too soft on crime if this person is still breathing.
Oh, delusional guy who thinks prisons are "summer camps" is back.
Poe's law strikes again.
If you think I'm wrong, feel free to tell the class why.
Aside from your disgusting minimization of successfully completing a premeditated domestic violence murder as getting it “out of his system”, the kinds of people who respond to stress by intentionally killing another person are in fact highly likely to do it again, a tendency that is exacerbated if they receive unduly lenient sanctions the first time.
Edit to add: in the recent thread about the invalidation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8), there was a lot of criticism of the decision because of the likelihood that more women would be killed by abusive partners. What a bunch of chumps! Sure, the abusers don’t deserve medals—but after they kill one girlfriend, we all know they’re not going to hurt anyone else.
Yes. Once you have successfully solved a problem by murder, it now becomes a part of your continuing toolbox of ways to solve a problem. No, he can't murder that wife again. What if he gets remarried? What if someone else annoys him and he thinks "Well, it worked with Wife!" There is a difference in the entire thought process when killing someone is an actual -- not blowing off steam, man I could kill that idiot -- solution to your problem.
> These are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.
Can you say, "Felony Murder"? I knew you could.
There are at least 11 cases where someone who didn't kill anyone is given the death penalty. In several of them, the person who did the actual killing got a lesser sentence. Sometimes, the more dangerous person gets a lesser sentence while the less dangerous one get the death penalty.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/executions-overview/executed-but-did-not-directly-kill-victim
Those eleven people are too dangerous to exist in a civil society and deserve a firing squad. To the extent the objection is that other people involved in the crime didn't receive a firing squad, the remedy is to execute them too, not to let others escape justice.
Yes; that's what prison is for.
This is the equivalent of killing your parents and then asking for mercy because you are an orphan.
It's death penalty opponents who keep nickel-and-diming the death penalty by forcing the government to "avoid suffering" and make it look medical and sanitize it. For death penalty opponents to force those measures and then claim that the very existence of the measures that they themselves forced proves that we're ashamed of the death penalty is the height of chutzpah.
I'd be fine with firing squads, but you know very well that any state who tried it would immediately get sued by your allies.
You’re not humane. You’re not facing the issue squarely.
In my opinion, it's the people who want the death penalty to be "humane" and clinical that aren't facing the issue squarely.
“Put its ugliness on full display, complete with TV cameras.”
That might have the opposite effect from what you think.
The Romans were able to fill arenas with eager audiences to watch criminals die cruel deaths. Has human nature changed so much since then?
Maybe a show called something like "Death, Live" would be popular, especially if the show started with graphic re-enactments of the convict's crimes, followed by the convict getting his.
The reason I have skepticism about the death penalty is the risk to *innocent* people under the pressure of incompetent or even crooked cops and prosecutors. If I could be sure they were all guilty, I wouldn’t object to shooting or hanging first-degree murderers barring leniency from the jury or the executive.
Requiring that any jury members, if still alive, attend the execution would be a compromise between totally private and having it public. IIRC the British halted public executions because of the high level of pick-pocketing that took place.
It is obviously unconstitutional to permit people to harm themselves by being part of a 'firing squad'. Get a grip.
I'll give you the credit of novelty, I've never seen this particular frivolous argument. To the extent that's your concern then fine; put the guns on a timing circuit and have Alexa execute them. Nobody is harming themselves on a firing squad, the machine does it.
This is as bad an argument as suggesting that pulling a piece of string attached to the trigger is not the same as pulling the trigger.
Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be.
There is something I don't understand here.
People occasionally die, intentionally or not, from carbon monoxide poisoning. As I understand it this is pretty painless, in that the victim just sort of falls asleep and doesn't wake up.
Is that wrong, or is there some other reason that CO is not used?
Signs and symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning may include:
Dull headache
Weakness
Dizziness
Nausea or vomiting
Shortness of breath
Confusion
Blurred vision
Loss of consciousness
I don't think it would be hard to make an 8th Amendment case out of what is often mistaken for a bad case of the Flu...
Now as to Fentanyl...
Check out Nitrogen asphyxiation.
I once was in a confined space with a leaking CO2 cylinder. Started to go unconscious after a very short period with no shortness of breath or other ill effects. I've never understood why this method isn't used for carrying out death sentences.
Any new method that gets used will be subject to nuisance lawsuits claiming that the method is inhumane. Settling these lawsuits will cost a lot of time and money. Existing execution methods are ones which have already been ruled okay by courts in previous decisions so they can't be filibustered this way.
Inert gas is even better in that regard.
The reason is simple: Any change to the execution method allows the death penalty opponents to restart the legal circus from scratch.
“And in further en banc news, the Fifth Circuit will not reconsider its opinion affirming a denial of qualified immunity when Louisiana prisoners were kept in custody months after serving their sentences.”
OK, let’s try to make that easier to read.
“Louisiana prisoners were kept in custody months after serving their sentences. Is there qualified immunity? No, said the district court and the Fifth Circuit, which recently decided to leave that decision in place, refusing en banc reconsideration. Prisoners win.”
I sometimes wonder if judges (or, here, those summarizing legal decisions) are deliberately opaque, or if they are just poor writers. When it comes to federal or state appellate courts, it's even more perplexing, since those judges have one or several law clerks, who can/should highlight unintelligible writing that a particular judge missed correcting on his/her own.
Thank you, Azilia.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who finds it a pain to work through three or four flips to figure out what happened.
” Her expert wants to testify that the accident could have been prevented through this safety device called a “door.””
Could also have been prevented through this safety device called a “seat belt”.
Scratch that, it was a stand up lift. My bad.
Don’t laugh about sear belts — they have harnesses for these lifts.
What surprises me is that they don't have a kill switch that is attached to the operator -- like snowmobiles do -- which stops it if the operator falls (or jumps) off.
My lawn tractor has a dead man's switch built into the seat.
It's not like it would be difficult to implement.
Granted, I’ve only operated sit down lifts. But everyone I’ve ever seen has automatic braking kick in as soon as pressure moves off the accelerator pedal. I would have guessed stand up lifts were the same but apparently not.
My lawn tractor doesn't just apply breaks. If you take your weight off the seat it will kill the engine.
Cheaper that way -- what it probably has is what walk-behind mowers have, a metal band that grips the flywheel, thus stopping the engine and blade. As the wheels are linked to the engine, you also get engine braking, i.e. the wheels can't turn without the engine turning, and that metal band prevents the engine from turning.
Yeah, that's the way mine was, when I still was mowing several acres each weekend. It was a real pain when all you wanted to do was hop out and move something that was in your way. But part of my routine was a slope, and if I was going to fall out and have the lawn tractor roll over me, yeah, I'd prefer that the blades not be turning at the time.
A seat belt would have the same problem that the defendant offered in excuse: the operator could be trapped in an emergency. For high speed motor vehicles seat belts are probably a net benefit – one person is trapped and drowns or burns, while ten more avoid high speed ejection. Low speed equipment has different tradeoffs.
I ran over myself with a forklift once. Luckily for me it was a small, hand-powered forklift and all I lost was a toenail.
...and some pride?
But kill switch hitched to the operator?
As an aside, I've been told that harnesses are *required* for the high lifts used at Home Depot, although I'm not sure if that is OSHA or company policy.
And what kind of a warehouse has bumps in the floor?!?
A real world warehouse? I've seen at least one pothole in a warehouse, and the occasional leveling platform for trucks that wasn't installed quite right.
The stand up lifts that I've operated have a pressure switch on the floor. No weight on the floor the lift doesn't operate.
The lifts with the harnesses are usually the type where the operator rises up with the platform. They are mainly for a fall hazard.
What if someone chose the guillotine?
If criminals want to trade jail time for flogging, and if victims agree, that should be legal. Let them negotiate the tradeoff -- one week for every stroke, and the victims get to administer the lashing or hire someone to do it. Whatever they negotiate.
Yes. Or more specifically, I don’t think flogging is good policy, but I also don’t think it presents any 8th Amendment difficulties, assuming all other constitutional safeguards (due process, proportionality, etc.) are respected.
"Do you think a law returning to flogging is constitutional?"
Sure, but this is a classic example of the political process working, rather than constitutional litigation. Would an excessively high tax rate be constitutional? Not every unwise thing is unconstitutional.
Congress even abolished flogging in the Navy before the Civil War, thus depriving the Navy of one-third of its honored traditions.
I think we should stop this choosing stuff and just use the firing squad as the default. That being said, the guillotine was designed so that the victim wouldn't suffer and by all accounts is quite efficient. Guillotine should be fine, building one would be a fun project for some engineer interested in history. Just test it on a few corpses first to make sure it gets a clean sever.
Particularly since flogging was expressly authorized as a penalty for federal crimes at the time the Eighth Amendment was ratified.
That's not the way leftists operate. In their view, killing third trimester babies and men ejaculating into other men's colons are the highest attributes of man. Therefore, they must be protected by the Constitution.
I don't think much of this argument.
Why do we care if it was authorized? Is it impossible that there were unconstitutional statutes at the time? I seem to recall reading about something called the Alien and Sedition Acts.
Flogging is certainly cruel and, AFAICT, unusual, at least among modern democratic countries. So how can it be constitutional?
Put another way, politicians are anything but consistent in their adherence to principle, and I see no reason we should think the founders were any different. In fact, we know they were quite inconsistent.
(Groucho: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them I have others.")
So why take it as axiomatic that the laws of the time were uniformly constitutional?
If we don't care what the founders want, then fine; ignore the 8th Amendment and current voters can decide. Current voters are in favor of the death penalty.
The liberal position here is fundamentally incoherent. "The 8th Amendment forbids this!! But not as it was understood by voters or the founders now. Or understood by voters now. It has a secret special meaning that only I understand." Nuts to this; if you want murderers to escape justice, then make your case to the voters.
If a practice was in place when the Eighth Amendment was drafted and ratified (implemented, in many cases, through legislation implemented by the very same people who drafted and ratified it) and continued afterwards with no indication that anyone thought the amendment changed things, it becomes less likely that the Eighth Amendment did actually ban the practice.
It's not impossible, of course, that it did and nobody noticed or cared at the time. But it is less likely.
Excuse me, but I don't think you read my comment. I in no way said we should ignore the 8th. On the contrary, we should respect it.
I didn't say the death penalty is unconstitutional, I said flogging is cruel and unusual, and that's so even if it was accepted at the time.
Flogging is certainly cruel, and if it was not unusual at the time it certainly is today. And yes, "today" matters. The very word "unusual" implies that context is critical.
Is snow unusual?
You're assuming that people, including legislatures, actually think things through. There's a good argument to be made that slavery violates substantive due process, in which case the Fifth Amendment had the effect of banning slavery, at least on federal property. And while I myself find that to be a decent argument (though I doubt the courts at the time would have agreed with it), I also think it's safe to say that probably nobody in 1790 actually thought about whether that might be the case.
I think it's a pretty safe conclusion that if anybody in 1790 had started raving about 'substantive due process' they'd likely have been ignored, if not roundly mocked. That particular oxymoron was invented to avoid the necessity of overturning the Slaugherhouse decision, which was still many decades in the future.