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Court Blocks California Ban on COVID "Treatment or Advice" That's "Contrary to the Standard of Care"
This decision (Hoeg v. Newsom, decided by Judge William Shubb) reaches a result different from that reached four weeks ago in McDonald v. Lawson. I'm on the run, but hope to blog more about this later.
UPDATE: Here's the heart of the opinion, which preliminarily enjoins the operation of the law, as to plaintiffs and their members, on the grounds that the law is unconstitutionally vague:
AB 2098, codified at Cal. Bus. & Prof. Code § 2270, took effect on January 1, 2023. The statute provides that "[i]t shall constitute unprofessional conduct for a physician and surgeon to disseminate misinformation or disinformation related to COVID-19, including false or misleading information regarding the nature and risks of the virus, its prevention and treatment; and the development, safety, and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines."
The statute defines "misinformation" as "false information that is contradicted by contemporary scientific consensus contrary to the standard of care." The statute defines "disinformation" as "misinformation that the licensee deliberately disseminated with malicious intent or an intent to mislead."
The misinformation or disinformation must be conveyed "[by] the licensee to a patient under the licensee's care in the form of treatment or advice." Physicians and surgeons licensed by the Medical Board or the Osteopathic Board (the "Boards") are covered by the statute.
The Boards are tasked with enforcing AB 2098. The statute augments the definition of "unprofessional conduct," which is a pre-existing basis for disciplinary action by the Boards. Unprofessional conduct also includes, but is not limited to, "gross negligence," "repeated negligent acts," and "incompetence." …
"Contemporary Scientific Consensus"
[B]ased on the record before the court, it appears that the primary term at issue—"contemporary scientific consensus"—does not have an established technical meaning in the medical community. Physician plaintiffs provide declarations explaining that "scientific consensus" is a poorly defined concept. For example, Dr. Khatibi explains that there are different notions of scientific "consensus." These include "informal consensus," which refers to the general opinion of doctors, and "formal consensus," which refers to a process by which "a group of doctors with expertise in a particular topic come together to … discuss[] and debate the evidence around a topic," and "arrive at some conclusions for general patient care guidelines," which are then published. Expert declarant Dr. Verma also explains that the term "scientific consensus," as it has come to be used during the pandemic, often refers to the pronouncements of public health officials.
Defendants provide no evidence that "scientific consensus" has any established technical meaning; the expert declarations they offer are notably silent on the topic….
In Forbes, the Ninth Circuit considered a vagueness challenge to a law prohibiting medical "experimentation" or "investigation" involving fetal tissue from abortions unless necessary to perform a "routine" pathological examination. The court relied on testimony from the plaintiffs (who were physicians) and expert witnesses to evaluate the challenged terms, which were not defined by the statute. The experts "highlight[ed] doctors' lack of consensus about what procedures are purely experimental" and pointed out difficulties arising from the changing nature of scientific understanding, by which some "experiments" will eventually become recognized as "treatment." The terms "investigation" and "routine" were problematic because multiple common definitions could apply in the medical community, which "[lacked] any official standards to help" define the terms. The Ninth Circuit reasoned that because the contested terms lacked sufficiently clear, commonly understood definitions in the medical community, and the statute failed to provide narrowing definitions, the statute was unconstitutionally vague. The lack of definitional clarity failed both to give doctors fair notice of what conduct was prohibited, and to give courts and law enforcement sufficient standards by which to narrow the terms' meanings.
Like the contested terms in Forbes, "contemporary scientific consensus" lacks an established meaning within the medical community, and defendants do not propose one. {At oral argument, defense counsel declined to explain what specific conduct the law may prohibit, arguing that application of the law is highly fact-specific.} The statute provides no clarity on the term's meaning, leaving open multiple important questions. For instance, who determines whether a consensus exists to begin with? If a consensus does exist, among whom must the consensus exist (for example practicing physicians, or professional organizations, or medical researchers, or public health officials, or perhaps a combination)? In which geographic area must the consensus exist (California, or the United States, or the world)? What level of agreement constitutes a consensus (perhaps a plurality, or a majority, or a supermajority)? How recently in time must the consensus have been established to be considered "contemporary"? And what source or sources should physicians consult to determine what the consensus is at any given time (perhaps peer-reviewed scientific articles, or clinical guidelines from professional organizations, or public health recommendations)? The statute provides no means of understanding to what "scientific consensus" refers.
Judicial references to the concept of scientific consensus—in the context of COVID-19 as well as other disputed scientific topics—confirm that the term lacks an established meaning…. Because the term "scientific consensus" is so ill-defined, physician plaintiffs are unable to determine if their intended conduct contradicts the scientific consensus, and accordingly "what is prohibited by the law." As discussed in greater detail in Section III of this Order, plaintiffs represent that they have provided and would like to continue providing certain COVID-19-related advice and treatment that contradict the positions of public health agencies like the CDC. If the "consensus" is determined by United States public health recommendations, physician plaintiffs' intended conduct would contradict that consensus; if the same term is defined by other metrics, their conduct may be permissible. The language of the statute provides no way to determine which of multiple interpretations is appropriate.
Rather than merely providing the statute with "flexibility and reasonable breadth," the term "scientific consensus" makes it impossible to understand "what the ordinance as a whole prohibits." See also McCormack (statute requiring abortion providers to be "properly" staffed and have "satisfactory" admitting arrangements with hospitals was unconstitutionally vague because its terms "lack[ed] precise definition, and 'subject[ed] physicians to sanctions based not on their own objective behavior, but on the subjective viewpoints of others.'"); Tucson Woman's Clinic (statute requiring health care providers to "ensure that a patient is … treated with consideration, respect, and full recognition of the patient's dignity and individuality" was unconstitutionally vague because meanings of terms were "widely variable" and terms were "not medical terms of art").
Defendants argue that while the scientific consensus may sometimes be difficult to define, there is a clear scientific consensus on certain issues—for example, that apples contain sugar, that measles is caused by a virus, or that Down's syndrome is caused by a chromosomal abnormality. However, AB 2098 does not apply the term "scientific consensus" to such basic facts, but rather to COVID-19—a disease that scientists have only been studying for a few years, and about which scientific conclusions have been hotly contested. COVID-19 is a quickly evolving area of science that in many aspects eludes consensus.
Physician plaintiffs explain how, throughout the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, scientific understanding of the virus has rapidly and repeatedly changed. Physician plaintiffs further explain that because of the novel nature of the virus and ongoing disagreement among the scientific community, no true "consensus" has or can exist at this stage. Expert declarant Dr. Verma similarly explains that a "scientific consensus" concerning COVID-19 is an illusory concept, given how rapidly the scientific understanding and accepted conclusions about the virus have changed. Dr. Verma explains in detail how the so-called "consensus" has developed and shifted, often within mere months, throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. He also explains how certain conclusions once considered to be within the scientific consensus were later proved to be false. Because of this unique context, the concept of "scientific consensus" as applied to COVID-19 is inherently flawed….
"Contrary to the Standard of Care"
The Ninth Circuit has held that "otherwise imprecise terms may avoid vagueness problems when used in combination with terms that provide sufficient clarity."
Defendants argue that the inclusion of the phrase "contrary to the standard of care" provides the definition of misinformation with adequate clarity. The court agrees that "standard of care" in itself is a well-defined concept in the realm of professional negligence. The standard of care "requires that medical service providers exercise that degree of skill, knowledge and care ordinarily possessed and exercised by members of their profession under similar circumstances."
However, far from clarifying the statutory prohibition, the inclusion of the term "standard of care" only serves to further confuse the reader. Under the language of AB 2089, to qualify as "misinformation," the information must be "contradicted by contemporary scientific consensus contrary to the standard of care." Put simply, this provision is grammatically incoherent. While "statutes need not be written with 'mathematical' precision, they must be intelligible." It is impossible to parse the sentence and understand the relationship between the two clauses—"contradicted by contemporary scientific consensus" and "contrary to the standard of care."
One possible reading, as defendants argue, is that the two elements are entirely separate requirements that each modify the word "information." However, this interpretation is hard to justify. If the Legislature meant to create two separate requirements, surely it would have indicated as such—for example, by separating the two clauses with the word "and," or at least with a comma. Further, the concept of "standard of care" pertains to the nature and quality of treatment that doctors provide or fail to provide. It is thus difficult to accept defendants' contention that the term "standard of care" modifies the word "information." By its very nature, the standard of care applies to care, not information.
{The provision of AB 2098 stating that misinformation or disinformation must be conveyed "in the form of treatment or advice" is confusing for the same reason. A doctor's advice might suggest a particular course of action or treatment (e.g., "you should not get the vaccine"). This advice is distinct from any information that might be conveyed to a patient in conjunction with the advice (e.g., "scientific studies show that the vaccine carries a risk of health complications for patients in your situation"). The statute improperly conflates "information" with "advice" or "treatment."}
Another equally plausible (or perhaps equally implausible) interpretation is that any time a doctor's conduct contradicts the scientific consensus, it is therefore contrary to the standard of care. Such a reading would distort the existing meaning of the term "standard of care" by creating an additional statutory definition in the context of COVID-19.
Even if the court adopted defendants' interpretation, the mere inclusion of an entirely separate element does not resolve the definition's vagueness. The term "standard of care" fails to provide additional context in which to understand the meaning of the term "scientific consensus." More importantly, defendants' interpretation does nothing to address the chilling effect caused by the statute's unclear phrasing and structure…. "[A] more stringent vagueness test" applies when the challenged statute chills First Amendment speech …. As it stands, doctors reading the statute have no assurance that the statute will be interpreted by courts or applied by the Boards consistently with defendants' proposed interpretation….
"False Information"
Defendants also argue that the inclusion of the term "false information" as a separate element further clarifies the definition, or at least provides truthfulness as a defense. While this reasoning may appear sound at first, drawing a line between what is true and what is settled by scientific consensus is difficult, if not impossible. The term "scientific consensus" implies that the object of consensus is provable or true in some manner. This is evident in the examples of "consensus" given by defendants—that apples contain sugar, that measles is caused by a virus, and that Down's syndrome is caused by a chromosomal abnormality. These propositions are so universally agreed upon that they are considered factual. It is hard to imagine a scenario in which the Boards consider a proposition to be settled by the scientific consensus, yet not also "true."
Moreover, as discussed above, because COVID-19 is such a new and evolving area of scientific study, it may be hard to determine which scientific conclusions are "false" at a given point in time. The term "false information" thus fails to cure the provision's vagueness….
Defendants' Proposed Construction
Defendants argue that even if the statutory text is unclear, the court should adopt the "narrower construction" they propose—namely that the definition of "misinformation" contains three separate requirements: (1) false information, (2) that is contradicted by contemporary scientific consensus, and (3) that is contrary to the standard of care. While the court must "consider any limiting construction that a state court or enforcement agency has proffered," what defendants propose is not a narrowing or limiting construction at all. Rather, the proposed construction would require the court to essentially "[r]ewrite[e] the statute." This "is a job for the [California] legislature, if it is so inclined, and not for this court."
Because the definition of misinformation "fails to provide a person of ordinary intelligence fair notice of what is prohibited, [and] is so standardless that it authorizes or encourages seriously discriminatory enforcement," the provision is unconstitutionally vague….
The court doesn't address whether the law is also unconstitutionally overbroad, but it suggests that it might be:
{Because plaintiffs have established a likelihood of success on the grounds of their Fourteenth Amendment vagueness challenges, the court need not address the merits of their First Amendment arguments.} Though the court does not reach plaintiffs' First Amendment challenges, AB 2098 clearly implicates First Amendment concerns. See Nat'l Inst. of Fam. & Life Advocs. v. Becerra (2018) (stating that professional speech, including speech by medical providers, "is [not] exempt from ordinary First Amendment principles"); Conant (recognizing "the core First Amendment values of the doctor-patient relationship"). Accordingly, the court will apply a more exacting vagueness analysis.
Congratulations to Prof. Gregory Dolin and Jenin Younes (both of the New Civil Liberties Alliance) and to Laura B. Powell, who represent the plaintiffs. Disclosure: I'm on the NCLA Board of Advisors, but I didn't participate in this case.
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I know of no other condition in which there is exactly one single opinion or standard of treatment. That is quite literally why people are urged to seek 2nd opinions.
Exactly. And the idea that all medical advice must be consistent with a "contemporary scientific consensus" is a) subjective as hell; and b) helps entrench errant fads. Had California come up with this bright idea a century or two ago, we'd probably still be using leeching as a cure-all.
Actually, leaches are back - as they only eat dead tissue, they can clean burn wounds better than we can mechanically.
Dr Ed 2, 1985 called, want's it's "Medical Update" back, and since everybody likes to bust my grammer/testicles, I'll bust yours,
it's "Leech/Leeches"
"Leach" is a verb ("action word!") (with reference to a soluble chemical or mineral) drain away from soil, ash, or similar material by the action of percolating liquid, especially rainwater:
"the nutrient is quickly leached away" · "pesticides that leach into rivers"
and like the weather, everyone talks about Leeches, but last time I saw one was Boy Scout Summer Camp in 1974, where the North Dakota "Swimmin' Hole" we did our Swimming Merit Badge tests in was infested with them, didn't get the last ones off till I got home (Lighter Fluid)
Frank
That's grubs and maggots, surely? Leeches just suck your blood.
Isn’t that maggots?
Leeches restore blood flow to severed digits.
Do they? Wow that's cool.
A guy goes to the doctor. The doctor says you need an operation. The guy says I'd like to get a second opinion. The doctor says OK, you're ugly, too.
Methinks they were protesting too much - that these alternative treatments worked too well and hence had to be banned.
This is exactly how the scientific process works. Mangle a Shakespeare quote and jump to conclusions.
The Hoeg v. Newsom decision is here until Eugene has a chance to fix the link in the article.
Whoops, fixed, thanks! That's the trouble with posting in a hurry ....
I'm surprised California hasn't banned doctors from suggesting diet and exercise to their patients as an assault on "body positivity".
"You should lose weight" has a 98% long-term failure rate as a medical treatment.
Maybe, but is there a more effective treatment?
It has a 100% lethality rate, too.
So does living
So does the whole "Addiction Treatment" Medico-Industrial Complex, like with Crime, Drugs, Obesity, people only change their bad habits when they become disgusted with themselves. 98% don't. (probably more like 99%) Which is why I won't be surprised when Hunter B. goes all John Belushi soon.
Objecting to those has nothing to do with body positivity, everything to do with doctors prescribing them instead of addressing actual underlying conditions.
like addressing the mental illness associated with transgender
Yes, trans people often have mental health issues that arise from being trans. There’s this weird fantasy that trans people have instant easy access to care and treatment. They really don’t.
Here is where they won: “Expert declarant Dr. Verma also explains that the term ‘scientific consensus,’ as it has come to be used during the pandemic, often refers to the pronouncements of public health officials. Defendants provide no evidence that ‘scientific consensus’ has any established technical meaning; the expert declarations they offer are notably silent on the topic…”
Citing a pro-abortion precedent is a nice touch, given the opposing partisan leans of abortion supporters and COVID doctrine resisters.
It is vague and problematic in a situation of a sudden and fast-moving global health crisis. By defintion there can’t be any long-term studies and few in-depth ones. The onus should be placed on the alternative treatments proving they work and are safe.
Except the swedish health authorities and the authors of the barrington declaration figured out the best long term approach to this fast moving health crisis in April of 2020
The Barrington Declaration was bollocks (remember when the UK thought 'natural immunity' was the way to go and had to u-turn abruptly because so many people were dying and then crowed about vaxxing their population so fast?), the Swedes let a load of old people die first, wore masks and socially distanced to a degree that would drive the people who hold them up as an exemplar barmy, and vaxxed almost the entire population. They still didn't even have the best outcome of the Scandinavian states.
Not only is this empirically wrong, but it's nonsensical to talk about the "best long term approach" towards containing a pandemic that has had different profiles depending on which strain of the virus was dominant. Treating the delta variant the same way as the omicron variant would be public health malpractice.
You mean like using vaccines that produce Wuhan variant spike proteins better than a year after any variant using that spike protein had become effectively extinct in this country?
One wonders how medical malpractice suits ever work when one expert says the doctor fell below the standard of care and one says he didn't.
My thoughts also. This feels like a decision intended to critique the pandemic response in general, and not really the law in question.
1) Yes, the grammar issue is present. Courts often apply readings of statutes that adjust bad statute writing. Here, adding the "and" would have made the sentence grammatical and tracked the most likely intent of the legislature. The Court's technical approach is akin to not saving a drowning swimmer because there's a "no diving" sign.
2) Scientific consensus is not so elusive as to be unconstitutionally vague. It's clear some thing are outside of that consensus even with respect to COVID-19. For example, injecting bleach is a bad idea. Telling people it's "no worse than the flu" was, by 2021, objectively unsupportable. Etc. The plaintiff's argument that consensus is fundamentally elusive is sophistry. The court should have rejected the vagueness argument and proceeded to evaluate the advice given against a high standard for consensus. An as-applied challenge would have allowed the plaintiffs to demonstrate why their advice was not contrary to substantially all available data. Additionally, using an as-applied approach and measuring against a high burden for "consensus" would materially reduce the purported chilling effect of the law, while still permitting enforcement against the quacks.
3) Alas, if only there were a public body that could have defined the "consensus" views. Wait, that's what executive branch agencies are for. Too bad we're busy gutting court deference to agency pronouncements. My point is that legislatures are too slow to keep up with scientific advancement, but agencies aren't. The conservative legal movement is allergic to technocratic solutions because they inevitably change standards as science advances over time, but it would have made sense here to hook the law to an agency's pronouncements about the current state of science on COVID-19. In my experience, the health professionals who took responsibility for region-wide pandemic response had a very good sense of what they did and did not yet know about the disease, i.e. where consensus was and was not. The politicians and judges surely didn't!
The problem with agencies is that they are innately political, because are part of the Executive branch, subject to the political whims of their chief executive - the President or a governor. So, we had the CA public health agencies, reporting to a D governor, slavishly following the dictates of the CDC, etc, and even going so far as ticketing surfers for not masking at one point, while the FL public health agencies, under an R governor, determining that the vaccines are dangerous, and masking outside healthcare facilities is idiotic.
Another big problem here is agency capture. At the federal level, you essentially have a revolving door between the top of the FDA and Big Pharma, including, here, Pfizer. Compounding this, Big Pharma has been, for years, essentially bribing employees of the FDA with “royalties” from the proceeds from joint development. Some of them are very likely the highest paid Executive Branch employees as a result, with their royalties sometimes exceeding their federal salaries. The result is that the vaccines have never been adequately tested, according to standard FDA requirements. No long term studies on safety, despite almost three years from initial approval. No CDC required “shed” test that looks at how long pharmaceutical product is shed from the body (COVID-19 vaccine spike proteins often are shed for 2 months or more). As long as there is a COVID-19 emergency, the agency can continue authorizing the vaccines under Emergency Use Authorizations, bypassing most testing - and the WH just extended the emergency declaration for another couple months.
Are you still lying about the fact that Pfizer hasn't been approved? It's not authorized under an EUA any longer.
Prove it - that the Pfizer vaccine (BioNTech) being administered in the US has full federal FDA (non-EUA) approval. I just searched for it, and couldn’t find anything suggesting BioNTech non-EUA FDA approval. They were still doing EUA approvals a year ago. You may be a better researcher than I, so I am asking for your sources.
And why should they stop using EUAs, since they apparently get a liability waiver as a result?
Oh, and “lying” requires scienter. For the few non lawyers here, that essentially means intent, which requires, here, knowledge that I am wrong, above and beyond your mere allegation. You would be more persuasive if you just claimed that I was wrong.
I claimed you were wrong a year ago when you made this claim, and many times since. By the tenth or twelfth time you've been corrected, and almost 18 months after it happened, scienter can be inferred.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine
That’s not the BioNTech vaccine, which is the one that is being used in this country, but rather the Comirnaty vaccine that isn’t being dispensed here, very likely due to the fact that Pfizer wouldn’t be protected from liability, since it wouldn’t be dispensed under an EUA. And given the side effects, that liability exposure would likely be massive. You didn’t get the Comirnaty vaccine and neither very likely did anyone you know. If they got a Pfizer vaccine they got the BioNTech vaccines.
Here is a link to an FDA letter to Pfizer indicating that the BioNTech vaccine EUA is still in force, as of last month (12/22).https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download
Also see: https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccines
Let me expand on that. Pfizer has two different vaccines approved by the FDA: BioNTech approved under EUA, and Comirnaty with full FDA approval. Comirnaty Was approved, to a great extent, based on the very weak BioNTech testing, and then used in turn, to get around the requirement that administration of an EUA approved vaccine be completely voluntary, with no pressure, and with full knowledge. After all, the two are supposed to be almost identical. They are, of course, not identical. It was all smoke and mirrors from Day 1. There was never an intent by Pfizer to manufacture and distribute Comirnaty. Pfizer needs the vaccine it dispenses be under EUA, because litigation for it’s side effects would likely very quickly bankrupt the company.
That’s why I specifically included the BioNTech qualifier to the response that you were just responding to - since BioNTech is the Pfizer vaccine being distributing in this country. You responded with a letter about the Comirnaty vaccine, which is irrelevant, at last to my mind, to the discussion at hand.
I claimed you were wrong a year ago when you made this claim, and many times since. By the tenth or twelfth time you’ve been corrected, and almost 18 months after it happened, scienter can be inferred.
As Bruce points out, you don't even know which vaccine you're talking about. But while we're at it...how many years has it been since the "Hands up, don't shoot" narrative you were pimping was proved to be baseless bullshit without you ever growing enough of a pair to admit you were wrong?
These are fair policy points, but I'm not sure what you're advocating for. Public health emergencies are classic examples of where governmental interests are (supposed to be) at their zenith. Imposing some consistency in professional (i.e. licensed) conduct is a fair government interest. Yes, it it possible for Doctor Genius to be the only one expressing a correct but disfavored viewpoint....but the greater danger is several dozen Doctor Crackpots feeding demonstrably stupid opinions into the public discourse. It only takes a few drops of poison to taint the whole well. Meanwhile, Doctor Genius will eventually prevail on the others because the science will back him/her up.
So yeah, agency capture is a valid concern in the long run. But that's like talking about Starbucks and the tyranny of globalism whenever a city health inspector shuts down a rat-infested local coffee shop.
It helps with the response if crises that will predictably arise, but which will be unpredictable in terms of when and where and its particular nature, are prepared for in advance with as much international agreement and co-operation as is acehivable. Imagine trying to start such an initiative in the current climate, even though it’s all the more urgent, and far from the only predicted form of crisis. ‘New World Order, eat the bugs, etc.’
"Alas, if only there were a public body that could have defined the “consensus” views. Wait, that’s what executive branch agencies are for."
I theory only. Consensus views have changed with political administration changes. Sweden had the lowest excess mortality rate in the OECD. Ours was among the highest. Interestingly, Sweden did not have the lowest Covid mortality rate. That means the lockdown consensus view was wrong. Postponing and cancelling heart and cancer treatments (et al) had consequences.
Maybe more important though is that the COVID-19 vaccines were exempted from much of the normal testing through their Experimental Use Authorizations. There appear to be two types of side effects - which I term 1st order and 2nd order side effects.
The 1st order side effects appear to be a result of the extremely long lived mRNA migrating throughout the body, and generating spike proteins in inconvenient locations, where the cells exhibiting them are killed, thanks to the first jab teaching the immune system memory that they are pathogens. Hence many, if not most, of the spate of young athletes dropping over dead from heart attacks. Etc. When the mRNA was designed and manufactured, many of the Uridines in the mRNA were replaced by N1 Pseudouridines, which helps evade the immune system destroying mRNA outside cells, as well as more easily cross the blood/brain interface. Normally mRNA survives for a very short time, and that seems to have been part of why these vaccines were thought to be safe. The reality is that the spike proteins generated by the artificial mRNA has been detected up to 4 months after injection.
The 2nd order side effects appear to be a result of 2nd and subsequent injections of the vaccines. The first shot teaches the immune system that the Wuhan variant Spike proteins are pathogens, and thus, every time that they are encountered, they are attacked by the immune system. So, for the month or two (or more) that the artificial mRNA exists in the body after an injection, the immune system is pumping out huge amounts of antibodies to attack the (now obsolete) Wuhan variant spike proteins. And, of course, when those antibodies start tailing off, the CDC, etc strongly suggests another shot to get them back up. The problem is that the immune system routinely plays whack-a-mole with chronic viruses and slow growing cancers. That’s why you can have the Herpes Zoster virus hiding in long lived nerve cells for decades, and it only turns into Shingles when your immune system weakens enough that it can no longer play whack-a-mole, when they leave the long lived nerve cells. Except that all of the immune system resources that normally go to playing whack-a-mole with viruses and cancers are preempted by the vaccines into fighting the Wuhan variant spike proteins. The result appears equivalent to temporarily greatly aging the immune system, with the resurgence of viruses and cancers that the immune system normally keeps under control.
The thing to keep in mind here is the timing. Shutting down “optional” health care only lasted probably less than a year (2020). Yet, two years later, the excess deaths from cancer and the like, seem to, if anything, have increased. And they seem to track and slightly lag) administration of the vaccines.
'Sweden did not have the lowest Covid mortality rate. That means the lockdown consensus view was wrong.'
Does not necessarily follow. Treating immunocompromised heart and cancer patients in hospitals jammed with covid patients would not have helped those mortality rates at all.
My point is that legislatures are too slow to keep up with scientific advancement, but agencies aren’t.
If there's one thing that federal bureaucracies are well-known for, it's their nimbleness.
Well it ain't courts. And it ain't legislatures.
But agencies can be remarkably nimble. FEMA, FAA (at least the ATC part), OCC and banking regulators, CMS.... there are others at the state level. Where it really bogs down is in rule-making. But guidance publications are pretty responsive to changing circumstances.
re: "Wait, that’s what executive branch agencies are for."
No.
Not even a little bit.
Not just no but hell no.
Note that almost all the examples of incoherent "consensus" pronouncements cited in this case were made by the executive branch agencies you think we should be deferring to. That's not what they're for in the first place and they are demonstrably poor at it in any case.
Note also that those executive branch agencies you want to defer to are also the politicians you deride in your last sentence.
Reallynotbob's analysis is obviously wrong.
On point (2) - "Contemporary scientific consensus" is vague, as evidenced by the state's apparent inability to give it any concrete meaning. When the state responds that the inquiry is "fact-specific," that is essentially a concession that the term itself has no meaning. Your example that a doctor advising that COVID "is no worse than the flu" is not "objectively unsupportable." For 95+% of COVID cases, that would be objectively good advice. A physician prescribing bleach (or similar quackery) could still be disciplined or prosecuted without this flawed law.
On point (3) - Why should we defer to the executive branch? That branch (assuming you're talking about the federal government) has proven itself utterly incompetent in this matter. I see no reason why deference to state-level pronouncements of "consensus" would be any more plausible. Why not also look to national-level medical boards in other countries? Shouldn't policies in Israel, Norway, and other advanced nations hold some weight? If their policies vary from the CDC's, I see no good reason to automatically defer to the CDC over other learned bodies.
But the bigger, constitutional, issue with your approach is that it completely guts any free-speech protections. You're proposing allowing the government to establish what the policy is and then penalizing any speech that questions or does not adopt the policy. That is quite authoritarian.
But the court strawman'ed the consensus point by pretending there would be consensus about a great many aspects of COVID. In fact, there would be limited areas of consensus, and plenty of room for reasonable professional disagreement.
I disagree with your assertion about "for 95% of cases..." The question of whether COVID is "merely" another flu has to take into account the unusual risks of the original wild type. Those risks are precisely why early COVID victims had a vicious mortality rate; it wasn't just the flu. That 95% of victims still lived isn't the point. The risk of death was disproportionate. Describing COVID as equivalent to seasonal flu misrepresented the danger.
I would argue that using scientific consensus as a standard allows one to look at the scientific research broadly. Presumably, the state agency (or federal) would announce its view of the science, which would establish a consensus view on which doctors could rely. If one wanted to go "off script," the existence of an actual scientific consensus in the research would also be a defense.
But again, why shouldn't the state be entitled to prohibit whackadoodle statements by professionals it saw fit to require licenses for in the first place? By the way, "prescribing" bleach (actionable) and going on Dr. Oz to say "I'm a doctor, and I'm here with this one weird trick: two tablespoons of bleach in the breakfast cereal will clear you right up!" (not clearly actionable) are different.
If there are only “limited” areas of consensus, then why bother with this bill? And why is that not expressed in the bill itself (and why was it not expressed by the attorneys defending it)?
Take masks, for example. For years, the CDC recommended masking in many, many instances where reason and experience had long shown that masking was unnecessary. Some states followed along, others did not. What was the “contemporary scientific consensus” then? What is it now? What about studies that showed masks (other than n95s) did nothing? Do those count? How much weight are those given? How is a doctor supposed to know all of these things, give sound medical advice to patients ranging from infant to geriatric, and still be a normal human being? You’re asking for something impossible. All because the lynchpin of the statute is a meaningless phrase.
Take vaccine efficacy against spread of COVID. We have known for a long time now (at least 18 months) that vaccines have no beneficial effect on COVID spread (protection against serious COVID is another matter), but the CDC still recommends that toddlers get vaccinated. That’s, frankly, insane. But there’s a ton of science and medical literature that says there is no reason at all to vaccinate a five-year-old. So what should a doctor advise? Should he or she follow the CDC, which stands virtually alone on this issue, or the scores of other credible studies and agencies worldwide that say there's no reason to mask vaccinate children?
The “original wild type” of COVID has been nonexistent for more than two years now. Current COVID is no worse than the flu for almost everyone who contracts it (most of whom don’t even know they had it). A doctor telling a healthy 25-year-old patient not to worry about COVID would be giving sound medical advice but arguably may be in violation of this law.
You again talk about an agency “announc[ing] its “view of the science.” But this goes back to the fundamental problem here. The agency hands down a policy and then says you can’t utter professional speech in violation of the policy. That’s a terrifying power. Apply that power across all regulated industries, and now you’re no longer living in a free society. And keep in mind that this power will eventually fall into the hands of a politician on “the other team.”
"One wonders how medical malpractice suits ever work…"
Defense costs a lot so you can use the process to shake down insurance companies for small to medium settlements.
Remember when the "consensus" was that dietary fats were what was making Americans fat and causing all manner of disease (heart attacks, strokes, etc)? You should, because it wasn't that long ago. As it turns out, that "consensus" was more political than scientific. Legislation, school lunch programs, public health prapaga...er, I mean...information campaigns, et al were enacted/implemented based on it. But it has been appearing for some time now that the "consensus" was flat-out wrong...dangerous even...and the resulting "war on fat" actually had the effect of making obesity and other health problems worse.
There's a lesson or three to be found there.
The problem here is this law was aimed at thought control of medical doctors through risk of loss of their medical licenses. There really are medical debates going on about the efficacy and safety of the COVID-19 vaccines, as well as the efficacy of some treatments, such as Ivermectin. Routine safety and efficacy testing was side stepped by the EUA authorizations by the FDA, allowed as long as the COVID-19 emergency continues - and the Biden Administration just extended it again. Twitter, as well as it’s competitors, was actively suppressing any debate as “misinformation” at the behest of the federal public health agencies, in order to force a manufactured consensus. Medical journals were doing the same, refusing to publish negative research results from supremely well credentialed, and widely published, experts in the field. This manufactured consensus was what this law was intended to enforce.
There's no medical debate about horse dewormer for COVID. There's only fraudsters and legitimate medical opinions.
There’s no medical debate about horse dewormer for COVID.
And here you remind us (as if that was needed) of what a dishonest hack you are. While there's certainly doubt about the efficacy of Ivermectin as a Covid treatment due to a lack of peer-reviewed studies demonstrating such efficacy, saying that there's "no medical debate" about it is utter bullshit. And the peer-reviewed studies to date tend to conclude that the evidence accumulated so far is "inconclusive", which is what has made it a non-recommended treatment option. Here is just one of many:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33864232/
"Conclusions: Evidence is not sufficiently strong to either promote or refute the efficacy of IVM, DOXY, or their combination in COVID-19 management."
So there was a weird craze about it as an alternative treatment with no evidence at all. There are probably a host of treatements out there with similar levels of 'no evidence one way or another.' Fixating on this one was arbitrary, promoting it based on that fixation was malpractice and/or fraud.
There’s plenty of evidence - it’s just that researchers can’t get it published. The dis/mis information is that it was tested and failed. The study that is cited that shows that Ivermectin doesn’t work didn’t use it prophylacticly, as many do, and started treatment too late in the cycle. To be effective, it apparently has to build up in one’s system, and that wasn’t done in that study. The study was designed to fail to show efficacy, and therefore succeeded at its mission.
'The research supports me in email.'
On top of that, referring to a drug that does in fact have (and has for decades) multiple well-accepted applications for treatment of illnesses in human patients as “horse dewormer” is the sort of ignorance-based bullshit tactic one expects from a half-assed propaganda peddler.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/
You like to try pass yourself off as the smartest guy in the room, when in fact you’re just another tool regurgitating talking points he got from watching Comedy Central…and one who runs away like a terrified little girl every time his bullshit is exposed.
'ignorance-based bullshit tactic'
You're madder at people for mocking the ivermectin craze than at the people who promoted it?
Yes, it's a people dewormer as well as a horse dewormer. Except for all the people taking the horse dewormer form because of course no legitimate doctor would prescribe people dewormer for treating a viral infection.
Actually, the problem is that pharmacies won’t sell ivermectin anymore. And calling it a dewormer is deceptive. In humans, it is heavily prescribed for things like malaria.
Unfortunately for Nieporent, it doesn't fix damage caused by his brain worms. See, for example, his suggestion below that masks don't help against Covid -- which is misinformation or disinformation and contrary to the standard of care.
Actually, he's correct about that one - at least to the extent that he may mean the paper and cloth masks almost everyone was using.
A properly fitted and sealed mask with a N95 or better filter does have a statistically significant reduction in transmission rates. Hospitals get good use of those.
But anything less is almost worthless.
Your N95 masks have efficacy in health care settings, esp if used properly, against bacteria and after borne droplets containing viruses. What there is no evidence for is that they do any good whatsoever agains respiratory virus virons in an aerosol, which is much of what you get with presymptomatic and asymptotic COVID-19 infected people. Sure, when they are symptomatic, and coughing, they expel water droplets containing the virus. But most people in that condition quarantine themselves at least until they quit coughing and their temperature goes down.
Most of the pro mask studies I have seen are model based - they explicitly assume droplet dispersion. And for that, N95 masks, properly utilized, can be useful. The problem is that virons causing COVID-19 are almost an order of magnitude smaller that the holes in a N95 mask.
I wonder if that's because so many people were taking the damn stuff when they absolutely shouldn't have been?
Like the vaccines?
Yes, it’s a people dewormer as well as a horse dewormer. Except for all the people taking the horse dewormer form because of course no legitimate doctor would prescribe people dewormer for treating a viral infection.
LOL! I even gave you a link that outlines the many long-accepted uses of Ivermectin in treating human ailments (including many that aren't "de-worming") and you weren't smart enough to read it because you were in such a rush to pop back with this stupidity because you think doctors who have prescribe Ivermectin as a Covid treatment (rightly or wrongly) are dispensing the veterinary version? Guess this is to be expected given your pompous stupidity regarding the different Pfizer vaccines.
Why do Covidians so often seek to punish?
Where’s the success story where Covid was defeated by forcing everyone to act the right way?
Do you Covidians ever get tired of trying to hurt people and to make the lives of everyone around you worse?
Surely everyone wants to punish people who engage in medical fraud and malpractice? Why do you want fraudsters to make life worse for people? Why do you think letting thousands of people die of covid is somehow not ‘worse?’
I suppose you could always check one of the charts which show covid death rates in different countries and match them with the pandemic measures they took. That might be too much hard work for you, though.
No one wants to punish; it's an infectious disease, so what infects one infects many. So we all care about what other people do, and especially people lying about it.
And most Americans were not forced to act in any particular way, despite what idiots on the Internet yell about.
You think by now you'd have disabused yourself of the idea that dealing with Covid is a threshold thing - there's a continuum; it's not defeated/not defeated.
"The statute defines "disinformation" as "misinformation that the licensee deliberately disseminated with malicious intent or an intent to mislead."
So Fauci goes up against the wall?
“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”
Are you implying that you think this was a lie and that people should have been wearing masks?
What Wuz thinks is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether Fauci thought, when he said that, that masks would help prevent the spread of Covid. If he believed masks would help, he was spreading disinformation. Count the number of weasel words in the quote for a sense of what he thought the truth was.
Are you implying that you think this was a lie
I don't "think" it was a lie. Fauci explicitly stated that the reason he said it was because he didn't want there to be a run on N95 masks by the public.
For someone who likes to tell other people how stupid and/or dishonest they are you couldn't be more hypocritical.
I thought the Republican position is that Fauci goes up against the wall, no matter what?
Yes ... but at one point lobotomies *were* the standard of care ... and I would have liked to have a doctor brave enough to suggest that it might not be appropriate.
Surely you are not suggesting that because in the past a treatment was performed that eventually rejected; a treatment, I might add that was widely accepted, that today no dissent is permitted. The initial dissents were at the time definitely considered outside of the standard of care and the people who chose to treat their loved ones by other means were accused of falling for quackery and engaging in abuse.
In medicine, like all branches of science, there is never a settled consensus and all opinions and theories are open to criticism and alternate theories.
Usually it is the impractical, weak, or indefensible sacred cows that need to be protected by law, because they cannot stand up to criticism or scrutiny.
Good science or theory needs no protection because it can stand up on it’s own merits or track record.
The question is whether what falls within the "standard of care" for COVID is too vague.
The court that upheld the law said the state has a burden to "show that a scientific consensus exists [and] the information provided by a surgeon or physician both runs contrary to it." As far as I can tell, the court felt that sufficed to defeat a vagueness challenge.
The court that struck down the statute said you have to know ahead of time what the scientific consensus on the standard of care is so that doctors aren't left not knowing until after they are prosecuted. Otherwise, their actions will be chilled. But here, things get interesting. If what is being chilled is speech, then it is usually easier to win a vagueness challenge because courts are much more likely to frown on chilling speech than conduct. So perhaps the case turns on whether the law regulates speech or regulates conduct (a medical practice) that incidentally burdens speech?
Surgically removing body parts for imagined conditions, good thing we don't do that anymore!!
A guy goes to the doctor. The doctor says you need an operation. The guy says I'd like to get a second opinion. The doctor says OK, you're ugly, too.
AtR 9 hours ago
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Yes … but at one point lobotomies *were* the standard of care … and I would have liked to have a doctor brave enough to suggest that it might not be appropriate"
Good point
Lots of procedures/ diagnosis have been considered the gold standard of their time, and many are now known to be crap.
The mental health profession has had an extremely bad history.
lobotomies, electric shock, represssed memory, lots crap planted in the patients minds. Transgender is just the most recent examplle
So was bleeding and trepanation.
Unlike Dr. Ed 2, I am a "Real" Doctor, Bleeding is still the "Standard of Care" for Hemochromatosis (I'd tell you...), Polycythemia, and there's another one, but you only had to get about 2/3 of the questions right on the National Boards, so there you go (Hey, a Sports Team wins 2/3 of their games they're pretty good)
And Trepanation is still the treatment for Chronic Subdural/Acute Epidural Hematomas, difference between the 2 is the first results from a slow accumulation of blood in the Subdural Space, usually in the elderly, after minor trauma, like falling off a bike, and is characterized by progressively increasing demented Mental Status, remind you of anyone?
Second one results from rapid accumulation of Arterial Blood in the Epidural Space, usually from a blow to the side of the Haid', and will kill you in 12-18 hours if not drained, as occured with (Rep) Sonny Bono and Natasha Richardson
Frank
and his Psychiatrist told him to lay on the couch face down!!! Sound like my Doctor, Dr. Vinny Boombatz, no matter where it hurts he wants to kiss it to make it better, after that Hemorrhoid I had to get a new phone number!! I told him I took a bottle of Ambien, he told me to have a few drinks and get some sleep! No Respect!, no respect at all!!
When I trained (OK, 80's/90's) cutting off Ball/Dicks/Tits was only indicated for Ball/Dick/Tit Cancer, or if the Tits were so big they were causing other problems (no guy ever complains that his Balls/Dick's too big) Alot of guys could do without their tits though.
Frank "No Tits"
I don’t think they’re trying to protect medical sacred cows, they’re trying to protect patients. Alternative treatments need to withstand the process of criticism, scrutiny and proving their efficacy and safety, too. Usually that’s when they stop being ‘alternative,’ if they work.
Trofim Lysenko'
QA - you might try to distinquish between "experts" and advocates.
The mental health advocates drive the mental health policies, not the experts.
Same with covid - the advocates drove the ineffective mitigation policies, not the experts. The amatuers are the ones that got the policies correct.
There's an example of what happens when alternative treatments become mainstream without any sort of process to establish that they worked.
The point being that it used to be the "standard of care" for a whole lot more ailments for which it was absolutely useless, and was actually detrimental to the patient. The point was NOT that it never had...or does not currently have...any useful applications.
But they've changed, been discontinued, if not made outright illegal, disproving the idea that medical science is full of sacred cows that can't be challenged, criticised or reformed. For example, you're challenging and criticising 'Transgender' right now. You're just really bad at it.
No, it's an example of what happens when the political process drives or dictates the science, which in many cases is exactly what happened over the last 3 years and what California is attempting right now.
There is obviously a difference between the opinions of a valid medical practitioner or a researcher and say, a quack faith healer.
The scientists, and doctors behind, for example, the Great Barrington Declaration or Dr. Robert Malone were not fringe nuts, yet they were silenced and virtually erased from the debate.
A single narrative was decided upon and much like the days of Lysenko, no deviation from canon was permitted.
It's what happens when a political force decides to elevate its preferred alternative, it'd be like if the Republicans decided to have all its pandemic responses dictated by the Barrington Declaration, despite what happened in the UK and the fact that it's all utter nonsense.
No 'single narrative' was decided on, the situation kept changing and did so quite rapidly, both the disease itself and the chaotic global responses, and every time it happened 'alternatives' claimed it proved we were being lied to or mocked us for 'trusting the science' which is what you do when you're safely ensconced in the sidelines stoking populism and grifting.