The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The First Amendment and Sexual Orientation "Conversion Therapy" -- Next Stop, the Supreme Court?
From Judge Diarmuid O'Scannlain's opinion respecting rehearing en banc released today (and joined by Judges Sandra Ikuta, Ryan Nelson, and Lawrence VanDyke) in Tingley v. Ferguson:
Is therapeutic speech speech? Does a tradition of licensing a given profession override all First Amendment limits on licensing requirements? The three-judge panel answered 'no' to the first question, and a majority of the panel answered 'yes' to the second. In my view, both holdings are erroneous and significant constitutional misinterpretations, and I respectfully dissent from our court's regrettable failure to rehear this case en banc.
First, the panel said that therapeutic speech is non-speech conduct and so protected only by rational basis review. True, it reached this result by faithfully applying our decision in Pickup v. Brown, which held that a California ban on "sexual orientation change efforts" was a regulation of professional conduct only incidentally burdening speech. But the Supreme Court has rejected Pickup by name. Nat'l Inst. of Family & Life Advocates v. Becerra ("NIFLA") (2018). And other circuits have rejected Pickup's holding, concluding instead that therapeutic speech is—speech, entitled to some First Amendment protection. See King v. Governor of New Jersey (3d Cir. 2014); Otto v. City of Boca Raton (11th Cir. 2020). The panel's defense of Pickup's continuing viability is unconvincing. We should have granted rehearing en banc to reconsider Pickup and so to resolve this circuit split.
Second, a majority of the panel purported to discover a "long (if heretofore unrecognized) tradition of regulation" which warrants applying only rational basis review to laws burdening therapeutic speech. In reality, the majority drew out a gossamer thread of historical evidence into a sweeping new category of First Amendment exceptions. If new traditions are so easily discovered, speech-burdening laws can evade any level of scrutiny simply by identifying some legitimate purpose which they might serve. We should have granted rehearing en banc also to clarify that regulation of the medical profession is not a First-Amendment-free zone.
Judge Patrick Bumatay also thought the court should have reheard the case en banc:
The issues at the heart of this case are profoundly personal. Many Americans and the State of Washington find conversion therapy—the practice of seeking to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity—deeply troubling, offensive, and harmful. They point to studies that show such therapy ineffective. Even worse, they claim that conversion therapy correlates with high rates of severe emotional and psychological trauma, including suicidal ideation. Under the appropriate level of judicial review, these concerns should not be ignored.
But we also cannot ignore that conversion therapy is often grounded in religious faith. According to plaintiff Brian Tingley, a therapist licensed by the State of Washington, his practice of conversion therapy is an outgrowth of his religious beliefs and his understanding of Christian teachings. Tingley treats his clients from the perspective of a shared faith, which he says is conducive to establishing trust. And as part of his therapeutic treatment, Tingley counsels his clients to live their lives in alignment with their religious beliefs and teachings.
To be sure, the relationship between the LGBT community and religion may be a complicated one. But as with any community, members of the LGBT community have different experiences with faith. According to one 2013 survey, 42% of LGBT adults identify as "Christian." Forty-three percent consider religion to be important in their lives—including 20% who say it is "very important" to them. A more recent study found that 46.7% of LGBT adults, or 5.3 million LGBT Americans, are religious. Thus, for many who voluntarily seek conversion therapy, faith-based counseling may offer a unique path to healing and inner peace. Indeed, Tingley only works with clients who freely accept his faith-based approach.
Ordinarily, under traditional police powers, States have broad authority to regulate licensed professionals like Tingley. Under that authority, the State of Washington has banned the practice of conversion therapy on minors. The prohibition applies to all forms of the treatment, including voluntary, non-aversive, and non-physical therapy. In other words, Washington outlaws pure talk therapy based on sincerely held religious principles. As a result, Tingley cannot discuss traditional Christian teachings on sexuality or gender identity with his minor clients, even if they seek that counseling. While States' regulatory authorities are generally broad, they must give way to our Constitution.
{Washington notes that conversion therapy may encompass more pernicious practices, such as electric shock treatment or the use of nausea-inducing drugs. I have little doubt that a law prohibiting coercive, physical, or aversive treatments on minors would survive a constitutional challenge under any standard of review. But Washington's law proscribes a broad range of counseling, some of which would clearly be classified as voluntary, religious, and speech. Under Tingley's constitutional challenge, we must focus on the law's impact on these aspects of conversion therapy.}
And here, the First Amendment protects against government abridgment of the "freedom of speech." No matter our feelings on the matter, the sweep of Washington's law limits speech motivated by the teachings of several of the world's major religions. Such laws necessarily trigger heightened levels of judicial review. After all, "religious and philosophical objections" to matters of sexuality and gender identity "are protected views and in some instances protected forms of expression." As Judge O'Scannlain writes, religious speech gains "special solicitude" under the First Amendment. And those protections don't dissipate merely because Tingley is a licensed therapist. In the free exercise context, the Court has recently remarked that the First Amendment protects "the ability of those who hold religious beliefs of all kinds to live out their faiths in daily life." That principle applies equally when faith takes the form of speech.
Because the speech underpinning conversion therapy is overwhelmingly—if not exclusively—religious, we should have granted Tingley's petition for en banc review to evaluate his Free Speech claim under a more exacting standard. It may well be the case that, even under heightened review, Washington's interest in protecting minors would overcome Tingley's Free Speech challenge. But our court plainly errs by subjecting the Washington law to mere rational-basis scrutiny.
It is a "bedrock principle" of the First Amendment that the government cannot limit speech "simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." While I recognize that the speech here may be unpopular or even offensive to many Americans, it is in these cases that we must be most vigilant in adhering to constitutional principles. Those principles require a heightened review of Tingley's Free Speech claim. It may be easier to dismiss this case under a deferential review to Washington's law, but the Constitution commands otherwise….
Here's an excerpt from the panel opinion, by Judge Ronald M. Gould, joined by Judge Kim McLane Wardlaw and, as to the discussion of Pickup, by Mark J. Bennett:
This appeal requires us to decide, again, whether a state may prohibit health care providers operating under a state license from practicing conversion therapy on children. Twenty states and the District of Columbia have laws prohibiting or restricting the practice of conversion therapy, which seeks to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity. This appeal concerns Washington's law that subjects licensed health care providers to discipline if they practice conversion therapy on patients under 18 years of age.
In 2014, we upheld a substantially similar law enacted by California that subjects its state-licensed mental health providers to discipline for practicing conversion therapy on minor clients. Pickup v. Brown (9th Cir. 2014). Finding itself bound by Pickup, the district court in this case dismissed Plaintiff Brian Tingley's challenge to Washington's nearly identical law.
We affirm. Washington's licensing scheme for health care providers, which disciplines them for practicing conversion therapy on minors, does not violate the First or Fourteenth Amendments. States do not lose the power to regulate the safety of medical treatments performed under the authority of a state license merely because those treatments are implemented through speech rather than through scalpel….
NIFLA did not abrogate Pickup to the extent that Tingley contends it did. All parties agree that NIFLA abrogated the part of Pickup in which we stated that professional speech, as a category, receives less protection under the First Amendment. There is no question that NIFLA abrogated the professional speech doctrine, and its treatment of all professional speech per se as being subject to intermediate scrutiny. But Tingley instead contends that NIFLA abrogated Pickup in full, and that Pickup and NIFLA are irreconcilable to the point where Pickup is no longer binding law. We do not agree….
In addition to following our precedent in Pickup, we have an additional reason for reaching the conclusion that we reach today. The Supreme Court has recognized that laws regulating categories of speech belonging to a "long … tradition" of restriction are subject to lesser scrutiny. Washington's law regulates a category of speech belonging to such a tradition, and it satisfies the lesser scrutiny imposed on such laws….
There is a long (if heretofore unrecognized) tradition of regulation governing the practice of those who provide health care within state borders. And such regulation of the health professions has applied to all health care providers, not just those prescribing drugs. In Collins v. Texas (1912), for instance, the Court affirmed the conviction of a man practicing osteopathy without a license, reasoning that "[i]t is true that he does not administer drugs, but he practises what at least purports to be the healing art." Texas, and all other states, "constitutionally may prescribe conditions to such practice, considered by it to be necessary or useful to secure competence in those who follow it." The Court provided a long list of cases from state courts similarly establishing "the right of the state to adopt a policy even upon medical matters concerning which there is difference of opinion and dispute." …
Perhaps there are some procedural problems that I'm missing here, but the case seems teed up for possible Supreme Court review, especially given the split between the Ninth Circuit and the Eleventh Circuit noted in Judge O'Scannlain's opinion (as well as the difference between the Ninth Circuit's approach and the Third Circuit's).
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
The problem is that the state is picking sides==could it regulate away pregnancy counseling?
talking away the gay = A horrible crime great enough to justify gutting the 1st Amendment
convincing children to physically mutilate themselves into another 'gender' = A sacred duty worthy of taxpayer funds.
Um duh, the federal government did ban pregnancy counseling in the 90s, and the Supreme Court upheld.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_v._Sullivan
Let's see what justification you come up with for why it's ok to ban speech about abortion.
Rust v. Sullivan, 500 U.S. 173 (1991), did not involve a ban on pregnancy counseling per se. The regulations there upheld by SCOTUS prohibited the provision of Title X funds to recipients engaging in counseling concerning, referrals for, and activities advocating abortion as a method of family planning. The Rehnquist Court opined that funding anti-abortion speech but declining to fund advocacy of abortion procedures did not constitute impermissible viewpoint discrimination.
The problem is that the state is picking sides
That's exactly what this thread is about: the gov't picking sides (and suppressing the speech of the side it doesn't like).
Rust v. Sullivan, 500 U.S. 173 (1991), was a case in the United States Supreme Court that upheld Department of Health and Human Services regulations prohibiting employees in federally funded family-planning facilities from counseling a patient on abortion.
I don't approve of the reasoning in Rust v. Sullivan, (not that my opinion matters). As Justice Robert Jackson quipped about his SCOTUS brethren, "We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443, 540 (1953) (Jackson. J., concurring in result).
Rust did not ban speech; it merely defunded (some) speakers.
In the same way, this regulation does not ban speech. It merely de-licenses some speakers.
The challenged statutes define performing conversion therapy on a patient under age eighteen as unprofessional conduct, for which a therapist can face discipline. The in terrorem effect is the functional equivalent of a ban.
??? If you've foregone your license, you're not a therapist, nor a professional, so I'm not sure how you would be professionally disciplined.
Not only must you allow killing babies . . . we'll take your money by force and use it for that purpose!
Not paying for me to do something is the same as banning it!
The fact that “the federal government did ban pregnancy counseling in the 90s, and the Supreme Court upheld” doesn’t justify what the State of Washington is doing, any more than pointing out that Germany once allowed the systematic murder of “incurables” (the so-called “euthanasia killings”) or that slavery was once legal in the U.S. would justify such practices.
“Let’s see what justification you come up with for why it’s ok to ban speech about abortion.”
???
Because rloquitur expressed opposition to Washington’s ban on certain kind of speech, you infer that he is in favor of banning another kind of speech?! Maybe you are the one that needs therapy…
As I said, we'll see what rloquitur has to say. I didn't say anywhere that anything was a justification. I was just answering rloquitur's question with a yes. You're the one putting words in people's mouths.
No, the real issue is that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) ought to be banned. The issue is that it literally is "brainwashing" and that is why using it for gay conversion is so vehemently opposed -- the opponents KNOW how effective as a brainwashing tactic it is.
Well, you want to ban the underlying use of CBT -- everywhere -- for all the reasons why it is opposed for use in gay convergence.
Yeah, this seems right. Very Clockwork Orange.
The better example is the North Korean POW Camps and their ability to get our (quite patriotic, this was the 1950s) pilots to renounce America. That happened...
Ok so... Very Manchurian Candidate.
CBT is an extremely widely used technique.
If it worked for gay conversion we would know it by now.
HOW would we know? Who would tell us?
The converted people, who didn't want to be gay, aren't going to say anything, nor are their friends/family. Likewise, there is medical privacy and hence the converters can't say anything either.
What strikes me is that the LBGTQ community wouldn't be fighting this so much if *they* didn't think it worked... QED....
The same way we know anything about medical outcomes. There are anonymized reporting requirements and research techniques that don't violate privacy.
I don't see the LGBTs trying to force people into being / staying gay. In fact, a lot of the overt "pride" stuff seems like trying to make the best of a bad hand. Whenever you hear a gay person's story, it's always anguished. No one's like, "I was so happy not to be straight." I mean, the youth outreach program is called "It Gets Better" for crying out loud, not exactly a ringing endorsement. So I suspect if CT actually worked, the gay community would be all for it.
Now the Q's on the other hand, that's a different story entirely.
Gay conversion therapy doesn't make people straight. It doesn't work that way. At best, it can make a bisexual person avoid homosexual activities and focus on heterosexual ones. At worst, it seriously messes with the heads of homosexual persons and complicates their sexual identities.
Studies aside, the "how would we know" question is easy enough to answer because there are numerous public failures as examples and rates of suicides increase for LGB persons who've undergone this therapy. If your patients are killing themselves, you've failed. Full stop. See the history of Exodus International, a Christian conversion group that shut down and publicly stated conversion therapy didn't work.
The LGBT community fights this because this sort of thing seriously messes with people's heads and does life-long damage to their ability to sustain healthy sexual relationships. We fight this because people kill themselves over this. Now, if you call this "working" as intended, then shame on you. Otherwise, there's no conspiracy theory here--just self-righteous people damaging their children in the name of religion.
Probation depts are increasingly asking our clients with drug and alcohol problems to agree to CBT. A) it takes forever and B) the results are questionable when applying to people with addiction issues. They claim its about learning how to make better choices. My experience with addicts is that no amount of counseling, therapy etc...works for people who don't want to quit (similar to smoking cigs) OR when they are self medicating mental issues with street drugs and those underlying mental problems are not being addressed via proper psychotherapy or medication.
If my clients made better choices they wouldn't be my clients. Most don't like going to jail, losing their housing, having their car towed. Most of them are also repeat clients who have done this all before and will likely do so again after a relapse. [I practice in criminal defense.}
Yet another thing that Dr. Ed learned in janitorial training that has as much relation to this universe as the latest MCU movie does.
My "janitorial training" consisted of a half hour being shown how to control a floor buffing machine so you didn't put it through a wall.
I asked for this training -- and only because I didn't want to be supervising people things that I didn't know how to do. (I'm not saying I ever was very good with the buffer, only that I knew how not to lose it through the wall...)
This is literally one of the toughest contemporary issues of constitutional law.
Almost as tough as misuse of the word "literally"
Which I didn't do.
(Indeed, what is commonly said by not-as-smart-as-they-think-they-are pedants to be a misuse of "literally" is actually a correct use of the term. Just because you WANT language to be logical doesn't mean it is- it's democratic, and if enough speakers reject a particular "logical" view, common usage determines the meaning.)
That's "Literally" the stupidest thing I've ever heard, "Nome Sane"??
but I could care less.
It's really funny when ignorant people accuse others of ignorance.
Again, language does not work the way you think it does.
Everybody funny, now you funny too.
Nah, it’s easy.
Yes, therapeutic speech is speech.
No, a tradition of licensing a given profession doesn’t override all First Amendment limits on licensing requirements.
The tough part is that that doesn't get some people to the result that they want.
You haven't even gotten to the part that is really hard.
My bad. Yes, conversion therapy is protected.
It's not protected simply because you say so. You need to show where the line is drawn.
It's subject to strict scrutiny. To whatever extent there may be a compelling interest in preventing some types of therapy, the ban isn't narrowly tailored to serve that goal.
That's not an answer. Things can be subject to strict scrutiny and still be difficult issues to adjudicate.
He’s taking it to the obvious conclusion – government cannot license talk therapy at all, which is what happens when you regard psychotherapy as simply ordinary speech subject to strict scrutiny across the board. And if you do that, it really is easy.
It’s also easy if you take the opposite approach, the one the 9th Circuit did, and say talk therapy isn’t speech at all, the First Amendment has nothing to do with it, and only rational basis applies. In that case, psychotherapists have no right to do anything different from what the state tells them to do.
It’s only hard if you take some sort of in-between balancing-type approach, whereby government can license and regulate therapists, but its ability to regulate is limited because it’s speech in some sense.
It’s by no means clear such a balancing approach is appropriate. What basis for balancing is there? Taken to its logical extreme, it could mean that courts get to regulate psychotherapy any way the judges want to, by coming up with a balance between regulation and liberty that happens to reflect the policy choices that the judges, not the psychotherapists and not the legislatures but the judges, think best.
CBT should be banned...
Banned by whom? And why?
Dilan, I think you have to state and defend your premises. You favor a balancing approach, not the 9th Ccircuit’s always rational basis and not TeelveInchPianist’s strict scrutiny. But you never say so. You just say TwelveInchPianist is wrong. But he’s in good company. Your responses suggest you think the 9th Circuit (which also makes things easy) is also wrong.
You have to articulate your position here (what is the point of view that makes it hard? You can’t hust leave it assumed that that’s the only point of view there is. Then, why is your position better than either TwelveInchPianist’s or the Nineth Circuit’s? Just calling everyone who dosagrees with you stupid and ignorant gets you nowhere.
My premise is that it is difficult, and the difficulty has nothing to do with balancing. It has to do with the fact that you have something that can be plausibly characterized as conduct (medical treatment) or speech (it clearly has an ideological/viewpoint component). And it arises in a circumstance where the consumer protection issues (a traditional reason for regulating medical treatments) are extremely strong, but also in a circumstance where the danger of suppressing speech because of viewpoint (a traditional reason for strong 1A protection) is also extremely strong.
Which makes this a very hard case.
That's a good summary of the difficulty of the case.
As I posted elsewhere in this thread, I think NIFLA's affirmation of the informed consent laws in Casey argue for the state in this case. But, I did not consider the danger of suppressing speech because the therapist is free to express his opinion, just not in treating a patient.
Your thoughts?
Just in general, I think the compelled speech cases are somewhat easier (although I disagree with the Court's decision in the crisis pregnancy center case). Compelled speech obviously raises First Amendment issues, but I think they are less onerous ones. E.g., requiring a company to put a warning on a package is not as big an impediment to free speech as saying they can't advertise or promote the product.
So informed consent laws are basically the government requiring practitioners to give some sort of warning. If a state, instead of banning conversion therapy, required its practitioners to provide a fact sheet with the government's position that it doesn't work and can be harmful to gay people, I don't think that would be a difficult case.
But a ban on conversion therapy is clearly a ban on speech, and it's just as clearly a ban on speech because the government disagrees with its viewpoint that gays should or can be "converted". There's really no escaping that, but also no escaping the fact that the government has a highly compelling interest in regulating medical treatments that don't work or are harmful.
And to be clear and in answer to your question, the therapy IS the opinion. The therapist is saying "if you engage in prayer and do these things I tell you to do you will no longer have homosexual urges and will be better off". That's obviously a therapeutic claim; it's also, quite clearly, a political opinion. So I don't think saying "well they can say it outside the practice" solves the problem.
Again, very hard case.
That’s an interesting perspective on compelled versus forbidden speech. On the other hand, I suspect you would think there is no difference in the analysis of a website owner that is required to create content for a gay couple’s wedding versus being forbidden to create content. There is some doctrine in there about when compelled speech is permitted (but forbidding speech isn't), but I’m not sure what it is.
To me, it is not at all clear that a ban on conversion therapy is a ban on speech rather than a ban on a medical practice that incidentally bans speech.
It's not the answer because perhaps strict scrutiny doesn't apply as it didn't in the informed consent regulations upheld in Casey because they regulated conduct (the practice of medicine) that incidentally burdened speech.
When is the last time a law was subjected to strict scrutiny and still upheld?
Fisher v. University of Texas, 579 U.S. 365 (2016), comes to mind. While that was an Equal Protection case, the strict scrutiny analysis is the same as is applied to content-based prohibitions of speech under the First Amendment.
I’m not sure if there is a more recent SCOTUS decision applying strict scrutiny and upholding the challenged regulation.
Thanks. So it's not completely impossible, but still mostly a theoretical rather than realistic option. Once your case is slotted into the strict scrutiny bucket, that's basically it.
"It’s subject to strict scrutiny. To whatever extent there may be a compelling interest in preventing some types of therapy, the ban isn’t narrowly tailored to serve that goal."
As I have commented elsewhere on this thread, I'm not sure what level of scrutiny applies, although the rational basis test applied by the Ninth Circuit in the instant case and in the precedent the panel relied upon is (IMO) wrong. I think, though, that any level of scrutiny is satisfied here, given the compelling nature of the state's interest in protecting its minor children from harmful therapy.
The Washington legislature identified the state's interest as "protecting the physical and psychological well-being of minors, including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth, and in protecting its minors against exposure to serious harms caused by conversion therapy." 2018 Wash. Sess. Laws, ch. 300, § 1. When a plausible, less restrictive alternative is offered to a content-based speech restriction, it is the Government's obligation to prove that the alternative will be ineffective to achieve its goals. United States v. Playboy Entertainment Group, Inc., 529 U.S. 803, 816 (2000).
TwelveInchPianist, do you posit an alternative that is less restrictive of a psychotherapist's speech would be effective to achieve the objective identified by the Washington legislature? If so, what alternative?
Although I agree with the ultimate result in this case regarding a state's right to prohibit so-called conversion therapy, I think that SCOTUS review is appropriate here. Characterizing psychotherapy as "non-speech" is disingenuous. A state's regulation of a learned profession should comply with First Amendment guaranties. See, e.g., Gentile v. State Bar of Nevada, 501 U.S. 1030, 1045 (1991) (disciplinary rules governing the legal profession cannot punish activity protected by the First Amendment, and that First Amendment protection survives even when the attorney violates a disciplinary rule he swore to obey when admitted to the practice of law).
If and to the extent that psychotherapy combines "speech" and "non-speech" components, it seems to me that analysis under United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968), should apply. When "speech" and "nonspeech" elements are combined in the same course of conduct, a sufficiently important governmental interest in regulating the nonspeech element can justify incidental limitations on First Amendment freedoms. Id., at 376. A government regulation is sufficiently justified if it is within the constitutional power of the Government; if it furthers an important or substantial governmental interest; if the governmental interest is unrelated to the suppression of free expression, and if the incidental restriction on alleged First Amendment freedoms is no greater than is essential to the furtherance of that interest. Id., at 377.
In the instant case, the District Court dismissed the lawsuit at the pleading stage, and the Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal based on binding circuit precedent. IMO, the dismissal should be reversed and the case remanded for development of an evidentiary record and adjudication under some form of heightened scrutiny. Whether the applicable standard is that of O'Brien or the strict scrutiny sometimes applicable to content-based laws that regulate the noncommercial speech of professionals, see, National Institute of Family and Life Advocates v. Becerra, 585 U.S. ___ (2018), the burden of justifying the challenged regulation would be on the State of Washington. I believe that the state can meet its burden under either test.
Well f*ck me sideways with a bag of skittles and call it a rainbow, this comment was actually worth reading.
I remember when i was in law school there was a case out of the 9th circuit where the Bush administration was threatening to revoke doctors’ DEA licenses to prescribe controlled substances if they gave recommendations under prop 215 for medical cannabis. The threat was challenged and the 9th circuit held that this implicated the first amendment and enjoined the government from taking any adverse action against California doctors based on protected doctor/patient activity. This in a situation where cannabis was (and still is) a federally illegal schedule 1 controlled substance and the govt alleged the doctors ‘speech’ (conduct? making a recommendation) was in essence directly aiding and abetting violations of the controlled substances act and the doctors were regulated by the DEA (had to have DEA licenses) to prescribe other controlled substances.
Conant v Walters was the case. Pretty sure it was unanimous 9th cir ct of appeals decision in favor of the doctors to continue recommending cannabis and granting a permanent injunction against the DEA against threatening to revoke doctors’ licenses to prescribe anything. It wasn’t appealed to my knowledge so not US SUP CT precedent.
I am not sure if this decision was cited in this case but it makes me think…what is the major difference between that and a doctor's speech being something against state law? Minors could get medical cannabis so long as they had one of the listed conditions.. that isn’t that dispositive or differentiating to me. Huh.
This panel distinguished Conant:
I don't practice in first amendment law... it just seems to me that a state law that requires a doctor's signature (via recommendation) as a condition precedent to the patient violating federal controlled substances act (by purchasing federally illegal marijuana) confuses the speech vs conduct distinction. Verbally recommending a patient use cannabis is ineffectual for the patient (in 1996 or whatever i realize now its legalized more broadly) - although I understand plenty of speech about research into the patients condition and how marijuana could help etc...is definitely just speech... but a verbal recommendation wasn't enough. The doctor also needs to sign the recommendation so the patient can actually carry out the actions being discussed.
Maybe i am just missing something. I realize further that the authors of the ballot measure went to great lengths to distinguish a recommendation from a 'prescription' but practically speaking... the end result is the same. Doctor writes script, patient goes to pharmacist to fill it. Doctor signs prop215 recommendation, patient goes to dispensary and buys weed. Here, doctors can advise a patient about conversion therapy, discuss the pros and cons, and even recommend where to go get it...but can't provide it themselves? Seems like a whole lotta non sense to me.
The Conant panel noted:
That is, the injunction did not cover a signed recommendation required to get cannabis.
It’s not therapy, it’s a form of enforced religious indoctrination, when kids are forced to do it, and just plain religious indoctrination when adults volunteer.
You don't address the question of whether it is appropriate for the government to interfere with parents' decision to subject their children to "enforced religious indoctrination." (FWIW, I don't think it is.)
And apparently you don't have a problem with government preventing adults from voluntarily undergoing "religious indoctrination"! Wow! It's rare to see such pure statism...
Parents can clearly subject their children to a lot of awful stuff, however they don't get to classify it as any kind of beneficial medical therapy, it's hateful religious brainwashing, clear and simple. Allowing adults to do things you wouldn't allow parents to force kids to do is statism?
"You don’t address the question of whether it is appropriate for the government to interfere with parents’ decision to subject their children to 'enforced religious indoctrination.'"
A parent's interests in the nurture, upbringing, companionship, care, and custody of children are generally protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. See, e.g., Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399, 401 (1923); Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, 535 (1925); Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U.S. 645, 651 (1972); Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 232 (1972); Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U.S. 246, 255 (1978); Parham v. J. R., 442 U.S. 584, 602 (1979); Santosky v. Kramer, 455 U.S. 745, 753 (1982); Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702, 720 (1997).
In Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57 (2000), a four justice plurality of the Supreme Court opined that a Washington statute which permitted "any person" to petition a superior court for visitation rights "at any time," and authorized that court to grant such visitation rights whenever "visitation may serve the best interest of the child" was unconstitutionally applied to fit parents where paternal grandparents (the children's biological father was deceased) obtained an order of visitation with minor children, ruling that the authorizing statute swept too broadly. The plurality did not specify what standard or review applied to a state's interference with parental decision making. The plurality expressly declined to consider the primary constitutional question passed on by the Washington Supreme Court-whether the Due Process Clause requires all nonparental visitation statutes to include a showing of harm or potential harm to the child as a condition precedent to granting visitation. 530 U.S. at 73.
In a two paragraph opinion concurring in the judgment, Justice Thomas opined that he would apply strict scrutiny to infringements of parents' fundamental rights. Id., at 80. This opinion is arguably controlling pursuant to Marks v. United States, 430 U.S. 188, 193 (1977) (When a fragmented Court decides a case and no single rationale explaining the result enjoys the assent of five Justices, the holding of the Court may be viewed as that position taken by those Members who concurred in the judgments on the narrowest grounds).
This case illustrates one of the earliest lessons that I recall from Con Law I: "Be careful what you wish for". A rule that categorically says "therapy is never speech" might sound nice to social/religious liberals when the CA state legislature is banning conversion therapy - and then cause those exact same liberals to have a collective aneurysm when the TX leg uses the exact same constitutional logic to ban gender affirming therapies. And, of course, we can flip the script for social/religious conservatives thinking about TX and CA laws.
So yeah, maybe the right answer is complicated and not served well by simplistic, extremist, and absolutist positions ... at either end of the spectrum of political ridiculousness.
I mean, the difference is CT is abusive and horrible and has no therapeutic value or medical justification, the other is beneficial and medically supported. It's ridiculous to equate the two. Concerns about the 1st amendment won't stop conservatives banning anything and everything associated with being trans, and then later, gay. Whether CT CAN be banned is obviously tricker than just saying 'ban it,' but for fuck's sake don't pretend they're the same.
the other is beneficial and medically supported
I would caution you-- and I say this as someone who favors giving medical professionals extensive leeway in how to treat youth gender dysphoria, including recommending transition where the doctor thinks it appropriate-- that we actually have very little evidence on the efficacy of these treatments, they are very controversial, and that even ostensibly left-liberal governments in the UK and Scandinavia have banned them. I don't think you can distinguish GAC by saying it is medically supported.
Hard to distinguish the controversy from the transphobia, the government in the UK is NOT left liberal and are rampantly transphobic, along with a host of other dysfunctions.
If a little boy wants to be a girl, the entire world must turn itself upside down and pretend he can be, when there is literally no way for humans to change sexes.
If that same little boy, however, wants to be straight instead of gay, anyone who tries to help him commits a crime and should be in prison.
The facts are there is no human being ever who changed sex from a boy to a girl. But there are countless homosexuals who changed lifestyle preferences, as well as countless heterosexuals who chose a homosexual lifestyle.
Can I have some of what you're smoking? It's obviously some primo stuff.
Sure, it's called Oxygen, free last time I checked,
What happens to a therapist who gives compassionate therapy to a homosexual who wishes to identify as normal in these states that have made it illegal to do so?
I don't actually care much what your most recent fever-dream of repressed homosexuality and self-loathing has come up with. Your schtick is tired and boring, and deserves mockery.
But to the extent you want anyone to take you remotely seriously ... you made a claim, so put up or shut up.
Canada, France, and Queensland it’s a literal crime.
Of course my speech was hyperbolic to make a point, but in those places it’s an actual crime. In the US, you’d probably lose your license, for now.
I apologize for not recognizing you were too ignorant to know these things and thus I hurt your feelings.
My bad.
P.S. I also enjoy your using homosexuality to try and insult me. I know why I use as an insult, but why do you? What is it about it that you find so revolting that you use it to denigrate people ?
The shade is about a massive lack of self-awareness, not the underlying state of your sexuality - you can do you ... and/or whoever consents. That you automatically perceive any reference to homosexuality as an "insult", however, amply illustrates the issue. You obsess about gay sex more than most (possibly all) of the openly gay men I know. Repression isn't the only possible diagnosis, I guess, but that's why I'm a lawyer not a sexual therapist.
So you think I’m secretly homosexual and don’t know it and somehow have chosen to live a normal lifestyle for all these years in spite of me really being a repressed homosexual deep down?
Do you think some conversion therapists should study me in hopes of finding some sort of cure for homosexuals who know they are homosexuals but wish to be normal like me? I mean, if your theory is correct, aren't I living proof that we can cure homosexuality for those that do not wish to be homosexual?
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a classic line for a reason.
I have no idea what the reasons for your obsession actually are; it's probably something to take up with (*gasp*) a therapist. As opposed to loudly but anonymously reminding a law blog about your manly-man persona and how much you really, really disapprove of the gay agenda.
You can’t really be a trained lawyer.
Notice how you never engaged in my original argument or any about the absurdity of the beliefs of liberals or any argument. Further, you genuinely believe that absurd trope about “repressed homosexuality”.
Maybe you are a lawyer, a government one would be my guess lol.
By the way, I’m not ashamed of my public opposition to degenerates who cause so much social harm, spread disease and groom children. I’ll always fight for public health and for the innocence of children.
So... then why are you so obsessed with gay sex?
https://twitter.com/3sidedstory/status/1617647404341407744?
Lol. Obviously nothing more than an unfortunately timed snapshot.
This, however, is truly sickening. Talk about grooming. And this is all over the place and apparently fine with you lot. https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1606153984715.jpg
You people will tolerate anything in service to the homosexuals.
Stay away from other people's children.
Huh. No comment on the blatant, pervasive heterosexual grooming then?
To the best of my knowledge I've never met you and I have no idea what your sexual orientation may be, neither do I care. But I'd be very interested in seeing some evidence for your claim that "countless" homosexuals have changed their lifestyle preferences, and "countless" heterosexuals have done the same. You got any actual data to back that up? I'll be very surprised if you do.
Links cause the comment to get moderated, so here are the money bits which are then searchable if you refuse to believe them.
>That may sound unlikely, but as researchers are discovering, a person’s sexual orientation is not carved in stone. In her influential book Sexual Fluidity, psychology professor Lisa M. Diamond chronicled her research on 80 nonheterosexual women over a period of 10 years. During that time, Diamond discovered, a significant number of the women had reported changing their sexual orientation.
Article in AARP
>It thus appears that perhaps 1-2% of heterosexuals are ex-homosexuals. Proportionately more adults than teenagers and more men than women moved from homosexuality to heterosexuality.
from Pubmed
>Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated changed in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be more more common than previously thought.
from Pubmed
>Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process.
from Pubmed
Sexuality is actually a continuum that for some people does change over time, and bisexuality near the line does exist, but that doesn't mean that the majority of people can change their sexual orientation. Spend five minutes thinking through how difficult you would find it to become gay, if for some reason you wanted to do so. Would you find it easy to develop sexual desires for other men, to actually have sex with other men? Probably not? So why would you assume that it would be any easier for homosexuals?
Also, there's a scale from 0 to 6, with a 0 being someone who is exclusively heterosexual, 1 is primarily heterosexual, 2 is slightly heterosexual, 3 is true bisexual, 4 is slightly homosexual, 5 is primarily homosexual, and 6 is exclusively homosexual. You might find some fluidity in the 2-4 range, but I doubt you'll find much movement among either the 0s or the 6s.
The scale using came from a homosexual man who measured the ejaculate of infants and tried to assess their pleasure. The Kinsley Scale is nonsense.
Sexual orientation can clearly change. Why outlaw compassionate attempts to help people who do not wish to be gay not be gay?
The scale has been scientifically replicated and confirmed so it doesn't really matter who came up with it.
Back to my earlier question: How easy would you find it to change your sexual orientation? If you don't think you could, then why would you assume homosexuals can?
How on Earth could that scale be "scientifically replicated"?
And why do you think my experience, an anecdote and a heterosexual, can generalize to all homosexuals? And I love how the premise of your question rejects your continuum argument. There's no assumption of a spectrum in your query, only a binary. Too funny.
The quotes I shared with you were bidirectional. Heterosexuals -> homosexuals and homosexuals -> heterosexual.
I addressed yours, now answer me. If a little kid doesn't want to be gay, and we know orientation can change, why do you withhold treatment from him and tell him tough shit and get over it. But if a little kid doesn't want to be a boy, and we know sex CAN'T change, you invert the world and take away parental rights to give the kid chemical castration and genital removal surgery?
It's replicated by doing studies of thousands of people over an extended period of time, interviewing them in depth, and finding that their answers pretty much track Kinsey's results as to the scale. Kinsey may have had his personal baggage, and there were some problems with his methodology, but people who have studied sexuality by talking to many thousands of people since have found that his scale is dead on the mark accurate. And if you believe that sexuality is fluid enough for people on both sides to sometimes cross over, then you agree with the basic premise that it's a continuum rather than an either or.
And I don't disagree that people near the center may have some movement back and forth, but the people at the extremes don't. It's somewhat like food tastes: I don't care for brussels sprouts. I'll eat them if my alternative is starvation, but nothing is going to make me like them. I'll abstain from chocolate if I have a reason to do so, but I'll still be hungry for it. My food orientations haven't changed, even if my circumstances dictate that I can't eat what I prefer. If someone is a Kinsey 6 you're not going to make him like women, which is what genuine conversation therapy would be. You might get him to stop having sex with men, but when he masturbates he's still going to fantasize about men. Meaning he's still gay.
As for the "little kids", first of all, your premise is wrong. Nobody is doing bottom surgery, or chemical castration, on "little kids", with or without parental consent. That's a fiction spread by people hostile to trans rights. And if it were happening, I would agree that it should not. They don't happen until after years of therapy, after which the patient would no longer be a little kid.
As for the "little kid" who doesn't want to be gay, most of the time that's parent driven rather than child driven. The kid is just fine with his sexuality; it's his parents who can't accept it. But if we have the one case in which a kid really doesn't want to be gay, and his therapist is satisfied that it's him rather than his parents who wants to make the change, fine, let him try to make the change. If he's successful, and it makes him happy, I'm happy for him. I think that will happen far less often than you do.
It’s possible to be a woman trapped in a man’s body. It’s not possible to be a straight man trapped in a gay man’s body. I feel like that’s the difference. Cognitively, a trans woman is a woman. A gay man is not a straight man.
This is what trans therapy is all about. A biological male who’s also cognitively a man but wishes he were a woman for whatever reason will be denied transition therapy by qualified practitioners.
A gay man who wishes he were straight is in a similar boat. Sorry Charlie.
No offense, Krychek, but you made up that whole paragraph. The Kinsey Scale doesn't deal with sexuality or identity. Only behavior. That is, a male in prison having prison sex would get the same assignment as some active homosexuals. Further, if sexuality is on a continuum, how is it possible to have 6 or 7 discrete bins to put it in?
That's illogical on its face.
That's a pretty bold claim. But I love how it ties so neatly into the entire hypothesis of why gays have such poor mental health outcomes. It's the fault of everyone else, aka social acceptance, and not some mental disease state (verboten thinking!). That's the premise behind the activists driving homosexuality out of the DSM to begin with. A hypothesis that was then extrapolated to transgenderism.
Randal, what, cognitively, is a gender-fluid person? Or a detransitioned person? Or a person with trans-regret?
Further, has this state of cognition ever been used predictively as opposed to descriptively? Surely it should be able to right? If transgenderism is caused by having "the wrong brain", couldn't that then be observed in an FMRI in young people and used to predict transgenderism?
Further, how can a person have the brain structure associated with a cultural concept? How is that even possible? I mean pro-trans people argue that gender is merely a social construct and an identity. How can a brain have the physical structure of a social construct?
I mean pro-trans people argue that gender is merely a social construct and an identity. How can a brain have the physical structure of a social construct?
I agree with you on this part. There are some fundamental contradictions happening on the left, and eventually they’re going to have to be reconciled. This is one. (Obviously, gender is not a social construct. That should be obvious to any human. It’s like saying we don’t actually have legs, they’re just social constructs.)
Another related one is that there are no innate differences between men and women, but we need a good mix of men and women for diversity purposes. Well, which is it? (Obviously, men and women are different. See above: why would there even be trans people otherwise?)
Then of course there’s the idea of women’s sports. Is the left now saying that women aren’t competitive in men’s sports for mental / emotional reasons? That would be quite a reversal! Obviously that’s not the case — they aren’t competitive for physical reasons. Well guess what, trans women have male bodies for sports purposes.
So yes, one day these contradictions will be exorcised, hopefully soon, since they undermine the credibility of the left.
But that doesn’t mean there aren’t gay people or trans people.
I don't have to make stuff up; the facts and science are on my side. And yes, the Kinsey scale dealt with behavior but that was 70 years ago at a time when we knew far less about sexuality than we do now. We've learned to ask better questions, we've learned that sexual identities do exist even if the lines that separate them are sometimes a bit blurry. Take the case of a man who exclusively has sex with women but who fantasizes about men when he does so. He'd be a Kinsey 0 but are you going to make the case that he's completely straight? We create categories (you called them discrete bins) for convenience and because within limits they allow us to understand things, but the lines that separate them aren't always bright and clear.
It's really like religion. The term "Christian" take in a lot of ground. You've got true believers whose entire lives focus on their religion, you've got people who drift through life without really thinking about it, and you've got people who don't really believe it at all but who remain Christian for social or family reasons. If some happy idiot decided to start a conversion therapy group for Christians, he might get some conversions from the second or third groups I mentioned, but he's not going to do well among the true believers. Because that, too, is a continuum, and the people in the middle don't look a bit like the ones at the extreme ends.
'gender is not a social construct'
No, and neither is race, but there are a LOT of social constructs built up around them.
Randal, who is arguing homosexuals or transgender people don't exist? Further, here is my theory as to why some studies show similarities between a transgender's brain and the brains of people who are the opposite sex that the transgender identifies with:
First, some facts.
1.) No brain imaging has ever been used to predict transgenderism.
2.) The studies that I am familiar with are of a small group of adults who have been living as the opposite sex for quite some time.
3.) The brain has the feature of plasticity, and that it can and will adapt over time in function and structure.
To me, it's more likely these brain scans of mature, long-practicing transgenders share similarities with the opposite sex because they spent years acting like the opposite sex. It seems less likely that these brain differences caused the behaviors instead of the other way around.
As such, I reject the entire premise of a "man with a woman's brain".
Krychek,
In one post you argue that the Kinsey behavioral scale has been scientifically validated repeatedly, and now as you try to defend it, you argue against it.
It really is a religion for many of you.
No, I'm not arguing for and against the Kinsey scale. Your problem is that you see the world in stark black and white, with no shades of nuance. It's not black or white. And you see any nuance as a contradiction because you don't understand the concept.
There are "countless heterosexuals who chose a homosexual lifestyle"?
BCD, when did you "choose" your sexual orientation? What criteria did you use to make your "choice"? Did you try and compare before "choosing"?
Do you think humans are mere animals unable to make a choice of how they live? Humans make lifestyle choices all the time. I choose not to live the lifestyle of a smoker. I choose not to live the lifestyle of some effete liberal by not drinking a bunch of soy. I choose to exercise and not be some disgusting fatbody. I choose to resist all sorts of temptations of the flesh.
How many humans do you know that live a life without any person choices? Hardly any.
How sad of a worldview you must have to think every person is some slave to their addictions and desires and must act on every compulsion like some brainless earthworm.
Oh my god you are gay.
I'm a married man. I choose not to chase other women. I choose not to look at porn. I choose every day to try and honor my wife and set a good example of masculinity, fatherhood, and a faithful husband for my children. I even work on not having impure thoughts.
That's a lifestyle I choose to live. To you that makes me gay.
How fucking stupid, shitty and limited your world is.
And if that makes you happy, I'm happy for you. But not everyone else wants the same things out of life that you do.
Are these choices I make or am I slave to some physical impulses?
Well, you've repeatedly dodged the question of whether you could change your preference from women to men (and if not, what makes you think gay men can change theirs). So tell us: If somehow I were to convince you that you'd be better off gay, could you actually pull it off? I doubt this, but if you tell me you could I'll take your word for it.
I've shown that preferences do change.
I've argued that how someone lives is a choice.
I've also argued that someone can choose not to act on a preference.
For some reason, even though I'm right about all three of these things, you still insist on arguing with me. Maybe you're upset about the implications and that some of your sacred beliefs are in conflict with these facts.
Yes, I know, you think you've proven all of those things. What you clearly have not done is answer the simple question, posed multiple times, of whether you think that *you* could change *your* sexuality. And if not, why you think gays can.
And that's even before we get to the question of why should they.
Krychek, do you dispute any answer other than “Yes”, to these questions?
1.) Can sexual orientation change?
2.) Can people choose how they live?
3.) Do people have the ability to resist a particular temptation?
I don’t understand why you think this is such a powerful argument. Just because I’m stuck being normal, does that mean I can’t look around and observe the world? Obviously, orientation and identity can be influenced and nurtured; how else can you explain the explosion in non-normative behavior and identity recently? How else do you explain a 40-50% youth molestation rate of adult homosexuals? Coincidence or causative? You don’t go from 2% to 30% LGBTQ in a generation through any form of evolution, that’s being done intentionally.
If a homosexual doesn’t want to be gay, why do you deny him treatment?
1. For some people yes. For most people no. And I don't consider people who try something once because they're curious and then decide it's not for them to have changed their sexual orienation.
2. Not really; if they could there would be a whole lot fewer bad marriages, drug addicts and obesity.
3. Not if the temptation is strong enough.
The reason it's a powerful argument (and also the reason you don't want to answer) is that the fact that you can't change your orientation strongly suggests that neither can other people.
If a homosexual does want to be gay, why not just leave him alone?
If a boy wants to be a girl, why not leave him alone?
Statistically speaking he will grow out of it.
You also don't leave the homosexual alone, you affirmatively deny him compassionate care.
Oh I see. You think conversion therapy is about changing someone's lifestyle as opposed to their orientation. Sorry, my mistake, I didn't realize you were saying something that stupid.
Conversion therapy is about trying to change people's sexual orientation. Now you know.
If sexual orientation can change, and someone doesn't want to have a particular orientation, why would you deny them compassionate care?
The same compassionate care you demand we give people whose sex cannot change, but wish they were of another sex?
Why do you not see the cruelty of telling that homosexual who wishes to be normal that he can never be normal and forbidding him from any treatment whatsoever?
Why do you not see the cruelty of telling that homosexual who wishes to be normal that he can never be normal and forbidding him from any treatment whatsoever?
Obviously, because false hope is worse than no hope (and also because of the unnecessary cost imposed, time taken, and damage done by the procedure).
What's more likely, in your opinion:
The orientation of a person changing
-or-
The sex of a person changing
Which of those, as far as you know, is more likely to occur in humans?
Well, sexual orientation cannot be surgically altered.
Neither can human sex.
I agree, sexual reassignment surgery doesn't change the gender of a person. It just aligns their body with their gender. That's why it's effective compared to CT.
Randal,
Why are you switching to gender?
I wasn't drawing a distinction between sex and gender, just using the more natural (to my ear) word. Sexual reassignment surgery doesn't change the sex of a person.
It's not compassionate care. Maybe gay Christians who hate their gayness need support groups, if you really wanted to be compassionate.
BCD, your avoidance of my questions is duly noted. When did you “choose” your sexual orientation? What criteria did you use to make your “choice”? Did you try and compare before “choosing”?
I love this trope. You think it's the best "gotcha".
Do you think there's a difference between the concepts of "lifestyle" and "orientation"? Or are they practically synonyms?
I am ridiculing your misuse of the word "choose" and its derivatives. I note that you are still avoiding my questions about "choosing" heterosexuality.
Not that it matters, but I never "chose" to be exclusively hetero for a lifetime. I am puzzled by those who posit that sexual orientation is "chosen." Please help enlighten me.
Do you think when I chose to use the word “lifestyle” that I really meant to say “attraction”?
If you wanted to, could you choose to go expose your rearend in glory holes in the back of gay bookstores? Could you also choose to ingest human shit out of the asshole of another man? Could you choose to give blowjobs to dozens of strangers in some dark corner of a seedy gay bar?
If you wanted to, could you choose to do any of those things?
Have you ever heard of a homosexual taking a wife and having children?
You sure are fascinated by what you think homosexuals do. That aside, you've basically adopted my earlier question in which I asked you if you think you could choose to do any of those things. No, you couldn't; not unless someone were holding a gun to your head and maybe not even then.
The bottom line is that nobody has any real control over what they like. They can sometimes control conduct, but you want what you want. You've seized onto the fact that for some people, what they want shifts over time, but what someone wants at any given moment is not subject to volitional control.
Do people have control over what they do?
You're essentially asking whether free will exists. The Calvinists who raised me would say no. In fact, they would say that homosexuality is proof positive that someone is not of the elect, so there is no point to trying to convert them.
My view is that most of your major decisions were made for you, and free will is largely an optical illusion, not unlike the optical illusion that the sun revolves around the earth. So no, I don't think you could choose to be gay if for some reason you wanted to, and I don't think a Kinsey 6 could choose to be straight if for some reason he wanted to.
If a person really likes the taste of sugar, or alcohol, or a cigarette, or cocaine, could they choose not to indulge?
Or are they predestined to be an alcoholic and act upon their cravings?
If the desire not to indulge is stronger than the desire to indulge, sure. You can do whatever you like. However, you have no choice about what it is that you like.
And if all we're talking about is changing someone's behavior, as opposed to changing their sexual orientation, then deep down inside they're still gay. They're just not practicing it.
So they can not practice being gay, and over time their orientation can change.
Right?
Do you dispute either of those claims?
Very few people's orientation would change over time, if any.
(I think that a lot of what happens is that when people's sex drive wanes as they age, it becomes easier for them to enter into romantic relationships based on something other than physical attraction. If there's no sex in the relationship anyway, sexual orientation is less of a barrier.)
And yes, I've heard of homosexuals getting married to someone of the opposite sex. My own mother was a lesbian who was pushed into a marriage she didn't want. Left to her own designs she wouldn't have married my father, and the results were disastrous.
Why can't you just accept that different people have different desires and so long as they aren't hurting anyone they're not your concern?
So your very own mother chose to live a heterosexual lifestyle?
Can you let not guilty know that' it's possible?
Don't know that I'd call it a choice; she was pushed into it. In that era and in her religion, if you were a woman, you did what the men in authority in your life told you to do.
So, if someone whose authority you felt obligated to obey told you to move in with another man, could you do it? She did; maybe you could too.
Why is it so easy for you to take away your mother's own agency?
Do you have none?
Because I knew my mother, and I knew the culture in which she was raised. Refusing to marry would have resulted in her being kicked out of her family and her church.
I suppose that if someone told you, "Have gay sex or I'll kill your children," that one might argue that you had a choice, but not really. Your nature is going to compel your conduct. If you love your children more than you love not having gay sex, you'll have gay sex. But is it a real choice in any meaningful sense of the word?
But there's a larger question: Why *should* gay people choose to stop being gay or having gay sex? To please you? To satisfy your notions about what family life should be like? Hell no. You live your life and they'll live theirs.
Just an opinion here, but I would regard "choosing" sexual behavior at odds with one's innate attraction as sad, and more than a little bit perverse.
Have you ever heard of a homosexual taking a wife, having children, and coupling with men on the downlow? Who benefits in that situation?
If you understand the difference between a homosexual lifestyle and a homosexual orientation, why are you arguing with me?
Because you seem not to.
Because you are dancing around the maypole regarding whether sexual orientation is a "choice."
I’ve argued repeatedly that orientation can and does change.
I’ve argued repeatedly that living a particular lifestyle is a choice.
Neither of these arguments are wrong.
Meanwhile, you people argue that you should withhold treatment from gays seeking help to be normal. When orientation can change.
You do this for political reasons, not for compassionate ones.
Being gay is normal.
x
In rough terms:
If you're heterosexual, yeah, you probably have no choice in the matter. That's the normal, genetically dictated, default orientation, a product of instincts that drive species survival, fairly strongly conserved.
Sometimes the genetic system for dictating sexual orientation doesn't work right. Entropy is continually breaking things that work, while evolution is putting them right again, and neither wins out entirely.
So, sometimes, a person is going to, through some combination of genetics and fetal environment, end up hard wired for the other sex's orientation. Nothing you can do about that, and they're going to have about as much choice in the matter as your average heterosexual.
But things that break can break in lots of different ways. And sometimes when the genetic machinery for dictating sexual orientation breaks, it's just going to leave you not hard wired at all, and you WILL have a choice.
You might not perceive it as a choice, because you never tried to exercise that choice, just went wherever the path of least resistance was. And after a while you might get pretty stuck in a rut.
But, yeah, one would expect that not everybody is hard wired for sexual orientation.
ng,
There are plenty of women who decide later in life to actually choose a same sex life-style. I also admit that applies to precious few men.
As this is a large country there may in fact be a minority (but not small number) who choose their orientation at any point in time.
Also, your retort, seems to hold that a person's orientation does not (or even cannot) change. You'd have offer hard evidence for that claim.
Bottom line: I generally agree with your objection but not 100%
We are missing an important point here.
We can argue about whether this sort of change is possible, but what if it is, for some?
We still have no evidence that so-called conversion therapy produces that change, and lots of evidence that it is often quite harmful.
The discussion so far seems to ignore that.
If they had evidence, do you think it could get published?
Aha, it's a conspiracy!
It's not a conspiracy, it's a fact. Don't pretend otherwise.
It's 2023 and there is no more illusion that the sciences or even the soft sciences are free from activism and political influence.
You can be an ostrich, but I won't participate in your delusion.
Or it's a just-so story to explain why the evidence doesn't exist.
The ban on therapy to "change" one's gender identity is way ahead of the science. Studies from the UK's NHS indicate that at most 27% of prepubescent kids seeking treatment for gender dysphoria had gender dysphoria persist into adulthood. Sometimes identifying as a different gender can be caused by other mental health issues.
Interesting, but so long as there's some significant percentage I think the exact number is a bit of a red herring.
For example, I think it would be constitutionally protected to believe on religious grounds that cancer doesn't exist, and to preach that to anyone who will listen. State can't suppress that belief and that communication, sure. I personally disagree with that belief, but I'll defend the right to hold the belief, etc. etc.
So ... can such a person who believes that the "real" rate of cancer is precisely 0.0% nonetheless hold themself out as state-licensed oncologist? And even if they're right approximately 3/4 of the time that a patient doesn't have cancer, can their religious belief protect their right to a medical license if they want to counsel the other 1/4 "you don't have cancer, it doesn't exist, let's pray away those symptoms"?
I think that the state has an interest in making sure that diagnosis and treatment of any condition is based on the patient's characteristics, rather than pre-existing religious beliefs of the person holding themself out a licensed medical professional. Because "god told me cancer doesn't exist" might be a legit (if misguided) religious belief, but it's not medicine, and yoinking a medical license seems appropriate to me.
How to draw the right line is trickier (especially with a issue related to sex that gets some folks predictably hot'n'bothered).
We’ve had those studies before – that’s NOT 27% of kids who receive a diagnosis, and of course this cuts against the trans-scare narratvie that children are being 'turned' trans.
So cutting off a male's dick, inflicting a wound and calling it a Neo-Vagina, and injecting him, I mean "Her" with enough Estrogen to cool all of the hot flashes at Vassar, is "Standard of Care"???
Frank "got a Addadicktomey in OR 12"
It seems to me NIFLA supports the panel’s conclusion when it explained why the informed consent law from Casey was upheld:
This law too regulates speech only as part of the practice of medicine.
So it should be even more within the power of the government, in regulating the practice of medicine, to forbid doctors from cutting off healthy dicks, right?
Why? Sex changes are established medicine. Your squeamishness is irrelevant.
cutting off a male's dick doesn't change his sex, it makes him a Dick-less Male, like you.
As part of a medical treatment it makes a person a trans woman. One thing that can be changed is human decency. You should work on that.
You're the one who thinks cutting off a dick is a "medical treatment"
Imagine you had an extraneous dick growing out of your chin. Perhaps you do and that's why they call you the man with the unattractive penis.
No, the medical establishment is the one who thinks that form of surgery is a medical treatment.
I think such a policy would be harmful, but clearly constitutional (speech isn't even implicated).
“This law too regulates speech only as part of the practice of medicine.”
I doubt that. There is no indication in the Ninth Circuit opinion that Mr. Tingley is a physician. https://www.leagle.com/decision/infco20220906083
I think therapy falls within a medical practice even though an MD is not required.
Assuming provably harmful religious speech can be banned in a medical context, one would think stricter scrutiny applies than the same level as taxi medallion exclusivity for cronies.
But we also cannot ignore that conversion therapy is often grounded in religious faith. According to plaintiff Brian Tingley, a therapist licensed by the State of Washington, his practice of conversion therapy is an outgrowth of his religious beliefs and his understanding of Christian teachings.
I don't see why we can't ignore it. If Tingley wants to tell his "clients" that homosexual behavior is sinful, let him do so.
But that's not what this is about. The issue is whether the specific, allegedly therapeutic, methods he uses to get them to change are medically legitimate or, as is often the case, actively harmful.
Washington outlaws pure talk therapy based on sincerely held religious principles.
Once again, "sincerely held religious principles" are invoked as a trump card, overruling all else. But believing that conduct is sinful should not give a therapist a license to do anything they can dream up - even if not directly physically harmful - to change that conduct.
I think this is right. The question isn't whether anyone can engage in speech that encourages people to change their sexual orientation. Of course they can. The question is only whether that speech can be held out as a medical service.
Amy Coney Barrett has already been ordered how to vote, if not by the Church then by her husband.
The hard part was ordering her to become a supreme court justice.
So has Pete Booty-Judge
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Nothing a bit of dickhead conversion therapy won't cure.
A plainly sexist and childish comment.
If the Supreme Court recognises a first amendment right to torture people in the name of religion, the American Constitution really is lost beyond all hope.
Talk therapy = torture!
Chemical castration & genital removal = healthcare!
Yes. Alternate normalising/hysterical rhetoric is irrelevant.
Wrapping bigotry in a coat of religion does not improve that bigotry, nor does it transform that bigotry into anything other than bigotry.
Superstitious gay-bashers are lousy people, just as lousy as non-superstitious gay-bashers.
These treatments are abuse, and teens rarely go voluntary. They are coerced and threatened to "agree" to go. These types of "treatments" should absolutely be illegal for minors. One does not have a 1A right to engage in child abuse, no matter how much you believe it to be gods will.
"Sex Change" Operations??? which don't change one's Sex, merely mutilate one's Primary Sexual Characteristics. You are correct Sir! total abuse (and Genital Mutilation, I thought we were supposed to be against that? only practiced by the most backward nations of Darkest Africa)
Frank "Intact"
Isn't it stunning that these people can hold the belief that chemical castration and genital mutilation is proper treatment for kids who don't like the sex they are, while talk therapy for kids who don't like who they are attracted to is equivalent to torture?
It's truly stunning how malleable these people's minds are and they can just uncritically accept such absurdity.
Malleability is exactly the crux of the matter. They're denying the existence of neural plasticity, essentially.
Coercing young people to sit and endure people telling them they're evil is not therapy.
Castrating guys and telling them that they're now women isn't medical treatment, either.
Except that’s not what happens. The person consensually and voluntarily undergoes the treatment because it is what they want and has proven to be beneficial to the majority of the people with their condition. Your personal prejudices and convictions are irrelevant.
Hope you aren't a lawyer, (I-ANAL either) because pretty sure I saw Briscoe or Green on "Law & Order" (Cell Closing Sound Effect) say minors can't consent to anything.
Is there a limit to what someone can allow a doctor to cut off? a Right Arm for someone who identifies as a Lefty?? (Southpaws one of the few truly discriminated against groups) Both legs for someone who identifies as a double amputee?
Frank
Minors get all sorts of medical treatments all the time, some of them life-changing.
Duh, and who signs the "Consent" form?? Pretty sure no one in my Highschool Class (OK, I'm Old, class of 81") had their dick cut off.
Only pretty sure?
Pathetic response.
These treatments are abuse,
This is the central point that people like Bellmore and Drackman are trying desperately to avoid, and that ought to be dispositive.
"Dispositive"?? one of those legal words,
so where do they "Disposit" all of the unwanted dicks, balls, tits they've been whacking off for the last decade (Whacking off a "Tallywhacker" I made a funny!)
and what's the worst that could happen?(underappreciated flick) with conversion therapy? some guy/chick decides they really do like dick/pussy, and goes back to sucking dicks/eating pussy, try re-attaching a dick. (or a Pussy)
Frank
I don’t doubt that somebody out there did something objectionable like you are referring to. Not everything objectionable can be illegal. Like bad parenting. Or a total lack of parenting.
Can you explain clearly how you would distinguish this from kids going to church, attending youth groups or events, summer camps or youth retreats, Sunday School, speaking with Sunday School teachers or youth pastors or elders, or walking into their pastor’s office and talking about stuff? Where those things include traditional religious teachings, Christian teachings, or teachings from the Bible, or instead make it a mosque and the Koran, pertaining to the issue of homosexuality that you disagree with?
Keep in mind, truly abusive treatment of a child is generally already quite illegal, broadly speaking.
If you're gay, and everyone around you tells you it's sinful, evil, disgusting and something that must be cured, it's abusive. But lots of gay kids had to get through childhoods like that. Sending them to a camp to cure it is actual abuse.
What if you love pornography, or promiscuous sex, and everyone at your mosque or your church tells you it's sinful? Abusive?
Well, churces do tend to be sexually repressive, so I expect that argument could be made. Kids sweating in terror of hell because they've have dirty thoughts? Yeah, that's no way to treat anyone.
Maybe, I mean that's certainly a common objection to the Bible, or various religious ideas. I just wondered if you all would try and distinguish anything here from everyday religious activity and teaching generally.
Religious childhoods are by definition childhoods of religious indoctrination to one degree or another.
You doubt it? There are countless attestations to exactly this. There are camps galore out there devoted to this. How have you avoided this information?
If you can walk into a pastor's office, or the confessional, and talk about this stuff, you can also walk out. An LGBT person who seeks this out without coercion is the person in control of the conversation. Sending your child to conversion therapy camp where they cannot leave and the purpose of the experience is to force the child to change an immutable part of themselves harms them in ways that lead to long-term negative consequences, even after they reach adulthood and leave their parents. Suicide rates increase for these children after "therapy." Verbally driving someone to a state where suicide looks attractive is abuse.
A relatively easy way to distinguish this is whether it is voluntary, whether the provider is advertising it as a medical service (therapy), whether they misconstrue success rates, and whether the service provided is known to cause harm.
The problem with conversion therapy is that there's no evidence that it actually works. It's the therapeutic equivalent of telling people that if they drink my snake oil it will cure their cancer. So the real question is whether the First Amendment precludes government from banning medical quackery. And if the answer to that question turns out to be yes, then scam artists of all kinds will then have open season on the gullible public.
At least the Conversion Therapists don't chop off your dick. That's a plus in my book.
If you shopped around you could probably find someone who would.
Are you familiar with a now defunct group called Exodus? It was a group that provided conversion therapy. Their leaders later admitted it was a complete scam to get money from gullible conservatives and that nobody who came through their doors ever actually converted.
But the "Sexual Reassignment" Therapists DO cut off your dick, cut a gash in your netherregions and call it a "Neo Vagina" (Pseudo-Vagina would be more accurate) pump you full of estrogen and call you a Bitch.
And for the Bee-otches it's even worse but, hey (man!) they don't have to worry about Breast/Ovarian/Uterine Cancer
Frank
I hope they could occasionally let minors whose parents forced them into the Exodus program in on the scam ... and maybe even sit them down for some popcorn and a screening of "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". But alas, probably not.
There's less evidence that "gender reassignment" surgery works. And IT has serious, irreversible consequences.
What we're looking at here is ideology, not medical judgement, and not even particularly coherent ideology. Basically nothing more sophisticated than "Trans, good. Cis, bad. Ugh!"
Having another transphobic fever dream Brett? There's a ton of evidence that gender reassignment surgery works, because it works. There are a bazillion happily reassigned trans people.
If you knew a single trans person who went through reassignment, you'd know how much of a difference it makes to the people who need it. I only know a couple, but both of them are so much happier. From their perspective, now they're normal.
This is the epiphany that people on the right keep missing. For the most part, marginalized people just want to be like everyone else. It's not some secret plot to undermine society, it's a transparent plot to assimilate into society.
For example, why are y'all trying to convince gay guys to marry your daughters in the first place? It's such a bad plan. Let your daughters marry guys who actually find them attractive, and let the gay guys marry each other. Everyone's happy!
Studies of suicide rates before and after 'reassignment' are rather mixed at this point. Note I said "suicide rates", because they're a lot easier to objectively measure than "ideation". You've got studies saying things get worse, studies saying things get better, studies saying damned if we can tell.
You wouldn't approve a headache pill on evidence this mixed!
Well no, I wouldn't approve a headache pill based on suicide rates. I'd study its effects on headaches.
Yeah, don't you dare engage the actual point.
A headache pill couldn't hit the market on evidence as equivocal as that supporting 'gender affirming' treatments.
Now, surgery isn't held to the same standard as headache pills, and I'm happy about that. And 'gender affirming' drug treatments are generally using drugs approved for other uses, off label, so they conveniently escape having to undergo the same review as a new headache remedy.
If an adult wants to drill a hole in the top of their head and pour in battery acid, I might say they're stupid to do it, but so long as I'm not footing the bill, it's no business of mine. (Spoiler: I am, through my taxes and/or insurance bill.) So, adults, go ahead, just leave me out of it. I just wish that anything *I* wanted to do benefited from the same lax standard.
But for children, yeah, I think it's child abuse, and horrific child abuse at that.
Acknowledging the existence of identities that do not conform with a strictly religious view of the world is only ‘abuse’ if you think those identities are fundamentally evil, as religions tend to do. That they’re as naturally occurring as the religiously-approved identities is anathema.
My (obvious, I thought) point was, there's tons of evidence supporting the efficacy of reassignment surgery. It's just that it's not about suicides, it's about the efficacy of reassignment surgery.
If the suicide rate doesn't drop after the surgery, that's a pretty strong indication that the surgery didn't really resolve anything.
I'd love to know how you're attributing suicides to people who haven't had gender reassignment surgery.
Umm People do kill themselves for other reasons, financial, personal, medical (maybe they decided to have their dick and nuts cut off and didn't realize how high-maintenance a Vagina (even a fake one) is, they're always too dry, too wet, too tight, too lose, bleed too much, bleed to little (have 2 daughters and a wife, know all about Vaginas (real ones, and I do find them attractive, NO, not my daughters)
Frank
Yeah, exactly. Brett's whole theory is that trans people commit suicide at the same rates as... everyone else? Oh wow Brett, what an exciting data point you've discovered. Did I say exciting? I meant meaningless.
It doesn't resolve the horrid transphobia in society and often in families that must surely be hell on their mental health.
and on top of that, they cut your dick off.
Wow, man with unattractive penis, you're really excited about amputated dicks. You'd love Detachable Penis by King Missile if you haven't heard it.
I woke up this morning
With a bad hangover
And my penis was missing again
Frank's got some emasculation issues.
"[W]hy are y’all trying to convince gay guys to marry your daughters in the first place? It’s such a bad plan. Let your daughters marry guys who actually find them attractive, and let the gay guys marry each other. Everyone’s happy!"
Same sex coupling with societal affirmation = bad!
Same sex coupling by married men on the downlow = good!
That may have worked when gay men in hetero marriages had to meet in the bushes for sex and police raided gay bars and published names. But we're 40 years on from those days and we have smartphones with apps like Grindr. Trying to force people back into the closet as a means to squash religiously non-approved relationships won't work any more. Both socially and technologically, that boat has sailed, reached the far shore, docked, and set up a fabulous B&B.
Bellmore, Randal has offered this:
For example, why are y’all trying to convince gay guys to marry your daughters in the first place? It’s such a bad plan. Let your daughters marry guys who actually find them attractive, and let the gay guys marry each other. Everyone’s happy!
To me, that seems unanswerable. Please try to deal with that substantively, without distractions or subject changes. Just answer the question, why would anyone want a gay man to marry his daughter?
I'm not encouraging them to do ANYTHING. The whole premise of the question is false, and obviously so.
I'm just remarking on the stupid inconsistency of saying that you can go ahead with radical and irreversible medical treatments to 'affirm gender', even in minors, but any treatment, even just talk therapy, even voluntary on the part of the patient, going in the other direction is verboten.
'even just talk therapy'
Not therapy. Re-education for religous conformists.
Yeah, spout that religious dogma yourself. That's all it is, secular pseudo-religion.
From the point of view of the religious, everything that disagrees with them is some form of heresy, therefore can be classed as a mutated form of religion. Therefore thinking that being gay isn't sinful or evil must be a religous doctrine, not simple humanity.
If it's a minor, how do you know it's voluntary? Minors used to be thrown out of the home by their parents for being gay (probably still are, though rarer now.) Is it voluntary if your parents will dump you on the street with nowhere to live and no support? Is it voluntary if your parents tell you you won't be loved any more?
Why the fuck is transgender surgery part of this issue?
Because you don't want to admit that your beloved conversion therapy is bullshit?
Because we don't think transgender surgery is any less bullshit, but that it's bullshit shouldn't matter if you yahoos actually believed the crap you spout about medical autonomy, and individual choice, and sacred doctor-patient relationships.
But you don't believe any of that crap, do you? If you like a procedure, it counts. If you don't like a procedure, even if it's nothing but talking, all that stuff goes away.
No. If a procedure works, we like it. If it doesn’t work, we don’t really care as long as it’s harmless. If it doesn’t work and it’s harmful, then we don’t like it.
It’s very very simple.
If conversion therapy actually worked, that’d be great!
The problem is you guys, who are trying to disparage gender affirmation even though it does work.
'But you don’t believe any of that crap, do you?'
1. Forcing kids to got to conversion therapy has nothing to do with their personal autonomy and everything to do with the homophobia of the parents.
2. It is in no wise and no way a recognised medical or psychological treatment.
If you're going to tell us what we believe at least get your fucking facts straight.
The problem with conversion therapy is that there’s no evidence that it actually works.
That's actually not the problem. People generally have the right to engage in ineffective speech if they so wish. The problem with conversion therapy is that it actively harms people in a clear and tangible way.
And so does 'gender affirming' therapy, as many people who've undergone it and gone on to regret it will tell you. But that doesn't seem to matter, so why should it for conversion therapy?
Because, trans good, cis bad. That's all. It's pure ideology, because treatment in the other direction isn't being held to the same standard.
Most of the people who have undergone it say it's beneficial. There are exceptions but there are exceptions to everything. One is a medically approved approach that helps the vast majority of people who undergo it, the other is religious bigortry.
It objectively has adverse medical consequences. Irreversible loss of fertility, and often of the ability to have normal sexual function. Standard surgical risks. Going forward, reliance on hormone supplementation, and reduced bone density for the men.
You can make almost anything somebody chooses look good if you focus on the short term, and exclude the long term; They're happy they got their way, and haven't had time for regrets yet.
The risks are a given. The benefits have not been proven to the level that would normally be required for any serious medical treatment.
From your point of view those things may seem bad. From the point of view of the people who choose to undergo those procedures, they are worth it. Fortunately it's their choice, not yours.
People have been undergoing sex change operations since the fifites.
And not one operation changed anyone's Sex.
True, they alter a person's body to match their sex.
Doctors are only supposed to perform gender reassignment on patients diagnosed with bona fide gender dysmorphia. If rates of people regretting their surgeries is going up, that is a problem. Doctors are supposed to screen out as many of those people as possible. Gender reassignment isn't supposed to be a totally voluntary procedure, it's a treatment for a specific condition.
Well if your unhappy with your dick-ectomy just get the Add-a-dict-to-me, good look finding a donor though. (Seems like there should be a steady supply)
These cases remind me of the Court opinions after the Civil Rights Amendments, where the justices essentially rendered many of the promises of reconstruction null and void. It took us some 50-60 years to reverse that malfeasance.
So, too, I expect that, in fifty or sixty years, we'll look back at these stupid opinions and wonder what it is judges found so challenging about them. Conversion therapy is unproven quackery, rarely voluntary (and coming from a damaged place, when it seems to be "voluntary"), and far more harmful than any of these judges seem interested in acknowledging. Of course there is no constitutional right to exempt oneself from facially neutral state licensing standards that bar the practice. Just because your magical space-ghost-daddy tells you that gaysex is a sin and that your hokum voodoo to do something about it in fact honors his holy shitstain doesn't mean that a state owes you a license to do so.
But again and again, we just can't seem to grasp that LGBT people are entitled to the equal protection of our laws. We're just constantly finding exceptions in the First Amendment for discriminating against them. Conversion therapy here, public accommodations there, medical treatments in Texas. What I want to know is, when will queer people get the right to tell these fucking Christians to shove it up their ass? When do we get the right to discriminate against them, for going against our deeply-held moral beliefs?
No animus here, that's for sure.
Should I apologize? I'm sick of the disingenuous crap these Christians expect us to take seriously. "My religion prohibits me from creating a website for Adam and Steve's wedding." No, it fucking doesn't. We can all read the same Bible you're reading and can follow your "reasoning," such as it is. These cases have nothing to do with free exercise of religion, and everyone knows it. These cases are about expressing disapproval of LGBT people, and citing "religious freedom" as a constitutional shield. It besmirches the Constitution and the Founders' intent.
And like I said - sauce, goose, gander. I see no particular reason why I, being a morally-conscientious person who abides by my own sincerely-held moral beliefs, should have to tolerate in my place of business or public accommodation an asshat who believes the Constitution protects their right to torture their children or promote the circulation of HIV. You're damn right I have a lot of animus for these evil Christian hypocrites. In 50-60 years, hopefully I won't be the only one.
Let's assume what you say is true. So what? So what if they're about expressing disapproval of homosexuals?
So what? Why is that a crime?
First you're for the gays, now you're against them. Sheesh.
So what if people express disapproval of the disapproval?
Are Christians trying to bring the power of the State to compel others to express approval of their lifestyle or other life choices or support their cultural events?
"Are Christians trying to bring the power of the State to compel others to express approval of their lifestyle or other life choices or support their cultural events?"
Do you seriously claim that they are not? Our society would be much better off if fundamentalist "Christians" were to find a deity whom they do not regard as such a weenie that He needs help from Caesar. (FWIW, Jesus had a firm grasp of the distinction between religious and governmental matters. See, Matthew 22:17-21.)
Nobody is seeking your approval, they're seeking protection from your harmful and malicious interference.
Hey will you let SimonP know he's completely wrong then?
Can't manage it yourself?
Express disapproval all you like. Christians just want to "express disapproval" by denying medical care, firing people from jobs, denying access to services held out to the general public, and so on. The First Amendment doesn't give them a "free speech" right to do so. So they're pretending it's about their religious practices.
Play along with this hypothetical:
A gay man and a gay woman ask Masterpiece to design a wedding cake for their wedding.
What do you think Masterpiece would do?
A straight man and a straight man ask Masterpiece to design a same-sex wedding cake for their same-sex wedding.
What do you think Masterpiece would do?
Have conniptions.
Ha. Says the fundamentalist Christian. Which these days is all about animus. Animus towards gays. Animus towards immigrants. Animus towards women. Animus towards Democrats. Animus towards Muslims. And you're complaining about animus? Go animus yourself.
You left out the Chinks and the Handicapped, get it right!!
... and the chinks and the handicapts.
But thanks for not mentioning the Hebe's, we need all the help we can get.
It is a “bedrock principle” of the First Amendment that the government cannot limit speech “simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.” While I recognize that the speech here may be unpopular or even offensive to many Americans, it is in these cases that we must be most vigilant in adhering to constitutional principles. Those principles require a heightened review of Tingley’s Free Speech claim. It may be easier to dismiss this case under a deferential review to Washington’s law, but the Constitution commands otherwise….
Wait a minute. Your freedom to practice religion cannot be read as liberty to impose your religious beliefs on anyone else. To do that implies a government-backed power to negate the other person’s religion—or his liberty to eschew religion.
1A protected religious practice must be read as a liberty extending only to persons individually. Claims that religious practices require freedom to proselytize can only extend as far as the limits of the public square, where everyone is completely at liberty to ignore the proselytizer. There ought not be any implication that the government supports a religious liberty for a proselytizer to impose his religion on someone over whom the proselytizer holds any power at all, however slight.
"Thus, for many who voluntarily seek conversion therapy, faith-based counseling may offer a unique path to healing and inner peace. Indeed, Tingley only works with clients who freely accept his faith-based approach."
Who is imposing their religious beliefs on anyone else? Wtf are you talking about
Just an opinion here, but I suspect that many of Mr. Tingley's minor clients are there, not of their own volition, but at the insistence of parents who recoil at the thought of having same sex attracted offspring.
I imagine so, but parents are generally allowed to impose their religious views on their children. People may take issue with that, but that'd be a different case than this one.
Also, if the "religious speech harming minors" view is dispositive in this case, then the government should be able to ban sermons because lots of churchgoers are minors forced by their parents to attend church.
I suppose the point is that conversion therapy is more akin to a religious sermon than than to actual therapy. Practitioners may want the legitimacy of licenses to practice from the state, but the state hopefully doesn't want to be issuing licenses to people to deliver religious sermons.
Christian Scientists that believe invasive medical procedures are against their faith cannot deny lifesaving medical treatments to their children. So no, parents cannot always impose their religious views on their children. There are limits related to causing harm. Conversion therapy is known to cause harm.
This blog is a reliable friend to America’s vestigial bigots, including Brian Tingley and his fellow gay-bashers.
Since you're a confessed vegan, it's easy to extrapolate that you're also a homosexual.
Two mental illnesses in one! Now only if you were a transgender diverse, you'd be like the intersectional King and could command all the other Democrats on this board to be silent while the Gay Black Lesbian Transgender Cripple Illegal spoke!
Huzzah!
"Since you’re a confessed vegan, it’s easy to extrapolate that you’re also a homosexual."
Poe's Law?
I am not vegan. You are a liar.
I am not gay. You are a Volokh Conspiracy-style right-wing bigot.
The Volokh Conspirators thank you for being this blog's target audience. Prof. Volokh should send a hat, a shirt, or a robe to you.
He's Jerry Sandusky, a "Meat" eating (Jerry loves the "Meat") Heterosexual who just happens to like fucking young men in the Ass (that's how you know the real Heterosexuals!)
Frank
#RageFarm
"Don't interfere in the relationship between doctor and patient, unless...."
...the doctor is doing something illegal.
Typically when some activity or profession is licensed, it is illegal to do that thing without a license. Violations may be subject to civil and criminal penalties. Some of the discussion and comments seem to miss or obscure this fact.
In the panel opinion, “This appeal requires us to decide, again, whether a state may prohibit health care providers operating under a state license from practicing conversion therapy on children.”
Is the bolded language actually necessary or is the statement still true if you strike that? [Can you do strikethrough in these comments?]
I don’t know the particulars of this law, but some actual and proposed laws in some places (e.g. Canada) are framed in a way that potentially threaten teaching disapproved ideas generally.
Of course you already cannot "practice" conversion therapy on children without a license.
But "practice" just means you can't hold it out as a medical service. It doesn't mean you can't say the words. If a parent were saying CT-ish things to their child, or a minister to a congregant, etc., that would be fine. But if a stranger is putting ads in the local paper advertising conversion therapy for a fee, that requires a license. So it's not the speech itself that's banned, it's the context.
Is the quote from the opinion accurate if you remove the bolded words (seemingly irrelevant words such as "practice" and "license" and "providers")? Would it be better written that way?
If you left in the word "practicing," with an understanding that it has a meaning of "providing medical care to the public in a manner that requires a license," sure.
Heh, you just put all the words back in. ISWYDT
“If a parent were saying CT-ish things to their child, or a minister to a congregant, etc., that would be fine. But if a stranger is putting ads in the local paper advertising conversion therapy for a fee, that requires a license.”
So a nonprofit ministry or church could do something like this as long as they don’t charge a fee?
To be clear, you are commenting on this specific Washington statute? Or were you just commenting on how things ought to be in your mind?
Not all the words. As written, it applies only to license holders. With my change, it applies to anyone practicing CT in a way that requires a license, even if they're not actually licensed.
So a nonprofit ministry or church could do something like this as long as they don’t charge anything?
Right, and this is based on the Supreme Court opinion in Pickup, which was about California, but which this Ninth Circuit panel thought applied just as well to Washington. They specifically held that the prohibition wouldn't reach ministers.
Got it, thanks. But, looks like Pickup v Brown was a 9th circuit opinion, not SCOTUS? Which was then rejected by SCOTUS at least in some degree?
Sorry that's right. Ninth circuit applying its own precedent.
What would you expect from a Conference that doesn't know how many teams it has???
"Male-to-female sex reassignment surgery
At the University of Michigan, participants of the Comprehensive Gender Services Program who are ready for a male-to-female sex reassignment surgery will be offered a penile inversion vaginoplasty with a neurovascular neoclitoris.
During this procedure, a surgeon makes “like become like,” using parts of the original penis to create a sensate neo-vagina.
The testicles are removed, a procedure called orchiectomy.
The skin from the scrotum is used to make the labia. The erectile tissue of the penis is used to make the neoclitoris. The urethra is preserved and functional.This procedure provides for aesthetic and functional female genitalia in one 4-5 hour operation. The details of the procedure, the course of recovery, the expected outcomes, and the possible complications will be covered in detail during your surgical consultation. What to Expect: Vaginoplasty at Michigan Medicine(link is external).
Frank "Care and feeding of your brand new Vagina!"
Is he treating the patient for powder burns?
I ask patients about their guns occasionally, if they're wearing a Glock T-shirt, or if they're carrying one, it's just making polite conversation, "Oh, you like the 1911??....."