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Foster Parent Second Amendment Case Sent Back to District Court in Light of Bruen
From yesterday's Seventh Circuit decision in Miller v. Smith, by Judges Joel Flaum, Ilana Rovner, and Michael Brennan:
Appellants Darin and Jennifer Miller are both licensed foster home caretakers, and Jennifer Miller is licensed to operate a home day care. Illinois statutes and regulations restrict how the Millers may possess and store firearms and ammunition in their home. The Millers challenge the constitutionality of those statutes and regulations. The district court granted summary judgment for the State of Illinois, and the Millers appealed.
After the Millers filed their opening brief, the Supreme Court decided New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen (2022), in which the Court ruled that means-end scrutiny does not apply in the Second Amendment context. The Court made more explicit the constitutional standard endorsed in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), requiring courts to assess whether modern firearms regulations are consistent with the Second Amendment's text and historical understanding. After Bruen was published, briefing continued in this case, and we heard oral argument.
We now remand for additional proceedings to receive the full benefit of the district court's decision applying the "text, history, and tradition" test of Bruen. On remand, the district court should allow the parties to engage in further discovery, including seeking additional expert reports. The district court should then evaluate any subsequent motions under Bruen's text, history, and tradition framework. In doing so, the court should permit briefing on and consider the interaction of Bruen and the unconstitutional conditions doctrine, including but not limited to the employment context. See, e.g., NASA v. Nelson (2011); Engquist v. Oregon Dept. of Agri. (2008). The court should also allow discovery and briefing on the sensitive places doctrine, and on any other matter that the court and the parties find relevant in light of Bruen.
UPDATE: Here are the plaintiffs' allegations about the scope of the restrictions that they are challenging:
Defendant Department of Children and Family Services' ("DCFS") regulations flatly ban law-abiding citizens who serve as foster caregivers from having firearms immediately operable for self-defense in their own homes at any time. 89 ILL. ADMIN. CODE § 402.8(o) provides:
Any and all firearms and ammunition shall be stored and locked up separately at all times and kept in places inaccessible to children…. Loaded guns shall not be kept in a foster home unless required by law enforcement officers and in accordance with their law enforcement agency's safety procedures.
Apart from the carve-out for law-enforcement officers, there are no exceptions to this ban—not for licensed foster caregivers who do not currently have a foster child placed with them, not for homeowners who possess an Illinois Concealed Carry License, not for homeowners who employ storage mechanisms inaccessible to children (such as biometric gun safes), and not even for loaded firearms kept in the homeowner's immediate possession….
Defendant DCFS has promulgated regulations (1) flatly banning the possession of handguns in any day care home (except for law-enforcement officers or others required to possess a handgun as a condition of employment), (2) requiring all other firearms (i.e., long guns) to be "kept in a disassembled state, without ammunition, in locked storage in a closet, cabinet, or other locked storage facility inaccessible to children" (except, again, in the case of law-enforcement officers); (3) requiring that all "[a]mmunition for such firearms shall be kept in locked storage separate from that of the disassembled firearms, inaccessible to children"; and (4) requiring the homeowner operating the day care to "post a 'no firearms' sign" and "notify the parents or guardian of any child accepted for care that firearms and ammunition are stored on the premises," "locked in storage inaccessible to children."
On their face, these restrictions admit of no exceptions. Defendants have asserted, and the district court held, that these restrictions on day care homes have effect only during business hours, when the day care is operating. No such limitation appears in the text of the statutory or regulatory provisions at issue, however—and on their face, those provisions apply absolutely, at all times. Like the foster care ban, the day care home ban likewise includes no other exceptions, apart from the carve-out for law-enforcement officers—no matter how carefully the homeowners have been vetted or how securely they store their firearms.
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I'm surprised it isn't the other way around -- that they lose their foster home and child care licenses because they own guns.
I'm delighted that a Court is taking the prudent route: the additional discovery and argument might not change anything, but if nothing more it offers a sense of fairness.
Such fairness is often lacking and tends to undermine public trust.
As an unrelated example, it is perceived unfair when a Defendant's attorneys are allowed to conduct a search which would normally be conducted by law enforcement personnel [from the New York Times at 8PM today, "The president’s lawyers have said they searched the Rehoboth Beach home earlier this month and found no relevant documents."]. Such self-searching goes far beyond mere coordination for mutual convenience [also from the New York Times, "Justice Department investigators coordinated the search with Mr. Biden’s lawyers ahead of time, Mr. Bauer said, and the president’s personal and White House lawyers were present at the time."] and causes many to question why some criminal defendants are treated differently than others. Some in academia lament the fact that the special among us -- our Nobles -- are no longer being treated according to the norms to which they have become accustomed: some plebeians lament the fact that a person who fails to declare the importation of a dozen eggs faces unscheduled search and punishment far greater than that faced by a career politician with well-documented ties to international influence peddling and less-well-documented personal income. [The NYT report also notes that some classified documents were "retained" (a euphemism for "stolen") by then-Senator Biden. Who knows: perhaps materials from a previous investigation into Senator Biden's shenanigans now seem more significant.]
Perceived fairness is important.
Were you equally bothered when Donald Trump did the same exact thing? (I.e., have his own lawyers and staff search for improperly-held documents.) If you could point me to where you publicly did that; it would be much appreciated.
So far, Biden and his team have bent over backwards to disclose everything they have found. Now, does this mean that they will continue to do so? Of course not. Does it mean that they have actually found more but are, for some bizarre reason, delaying disclosing those? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible.
Doesn't Trump claim that he has a right to those documents?
Further, if Trump did do the exact same thing as Biden, why is the DOJ treating them so differently?
According to Team Biden that is, which you just accept uncritically as gospel truth.
Why do you doubt it when Ron Klein is resigning precisely because they slow-walked the first batch?
I'm not really that impressed with Biden "cooperating" with the National Archive & DOJ now 6 years after it mattered.
I would be interested in seeing evidence of the interaction between Biden and the National Archive in the first two years after he left office as VP.
Either the National Archive never made any requests for the return of documents from Biden or Biden did not cooperate fully 6 years ago when it really mattered.
Tangent alert!
Here's how the (Semi) Honorable Justice/Judge Frank Drackman would rule (IANAL and my legal Ed-Jew-ma-cation consists of 50+ years of watching "Perry Mason" "LA Law" "Boston Legal" "Law Order and all of it's Bastards"
US Constitution 2d Amendment 1788 "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Opinion "What the Fuck part of "shall not be infringed"
do you not understand"
Frank "Nut, Gun, Sort of"
Carelessly storing guns and ammunition where 6 year olds might end up shooting someone seems something a state would have an interest in preventing. It really would depend on what the restrictions were.
If the restrictions disputed were on possessing and storing porn at your home day care, would you be in the first chorus of "groomer!"?
You think the groomer uproar is about teachers hiding their porn stash adjacent to children and not assigning it to them as homework?
Isn't that what you're claiming school libraries are?
In your own words, can you share what you believe the groomer uproar is about?
I mean, what do you think the parents are upset about?
Satanic panic redux.
Nige, if "community standards" prevent you from reading aloud from a book to *adults* at a school board meeting, how can you justify that book being in a school library?
People at school board meetings are sensitive and timid and easily offended.
And children aren't?
No, they don't have the baggage.
That sounds to me more a matter of civil liability, not a legal or Constitutional one.
Civil liability is a kind of legal liability. It doesn’t exist in a vaccuum. It’s created, and can be altered, but the state. And what the state can impose civil liability for, it can prevent you from getting a foster care license for. It can also pass laws designed to prevent the thing from happening in the first place.
"
"Carelessly storing guns and ammunition where 6 year olds might end up shooting someone seems something a state would have an interest in preventing. It really would depend on what the restrictions were."
I don't think that this case would have been brought were that the issue -- it's widely said that had a certain actor taken a NRA gun safety class instead of berating the NRA, he likely wouldn't be facing criminal charges right now.
If the restrictions disputed were on possessing and storing porn at your home day care, would you be in the first chorus of “groomer!”?
The issue is that possession of guns is viewed as a disqualification much as the possession of kiddie porn would be -- that you aren't qualified to be a foster parent if you own guns.
That is not, in fact, the issue, because that is not what the regulation being challenged says.
What it says and what bureaucrats intend it to mean are often two very different things....
Nevertheless, the fact remains that that is not what the case is about.
It kinda is in that the regulations are so burdensome that they are tantamount to a prohibition on possession. That's why the defendants keep arguing that exceptions exist which are not in the actual text of the statute - they're trying to reduce the perception of burden.
I agree that the plaintiffs are arguing that the regulations impermissibly burden their right to keep and bear arms.
I disagree that their argument can be fairly characterized as asserting (or even “kinda” asserting) that “possession of guns is viewed as a disqualification much as the possession of kiddie porn”
Maybe the Court should define "infringed" and why the Founders felt it necessary to use that wording only in the 2nd Amendment.
Calling abortion the only constitutional right that involves the deliberate taking of human life was a bit of an exaggeration. And in the case of children, accidental.
No constitutional right is absolute. (The First Anendment, often considered the most critical one, is qualified by a considerable number of factors.) Why should this one be?
What could be the matter? Looks like we have got ourselves a gun thread which the pro-gun faction wants nothing to do with. I don't blame them. I predict the idiocies of Bruen will deliver quite a bit more of this unaccustomed pro-gun reticence.
Bruen has created a nice cottage industry for pseudo-historians.
Like the states in attempting to reimpose struck down laws?
No.
Yes, see New Jersey's lame arguments using "history" to support their work around new attempt to comply with Bruen (article is on the Reason side). They even made a claim in court that they required more time to respond to the current challenge. The judge wasn't buying.
That's right Bumble. Bruen, in all its historical idiocy, builds history and tradition into the law as a one-way ratchet; if you can cherry pick it, using foolish present-minded analysis, to support pro-gun advocacy, then history and tradition apply. If you could conceivably use history and tradition to support gun regulation, you can't even get time to do the historical analysis. The 2A says that isn't allowed. The striking fact is that a judge who decides that way is actually acting according to Bruen.
From here on out, every national election will be a referendum on enlarging the Court. Gun advocates better hope they never again lose one of those elections by a meaningful margin. If they do, the filibuster is toast, and you can reset the referendum problem as a peril for Democrats. But you will be doing it with a new Supreme Court which will have a lot to say about election rules.
Calling abortion the only constitition right that involves the deliberate taking of human life was a bit of an exaggeration.
What exactly are “arms” for?
Disingenuous question, but nice try.
Holy shit. What a ridiculous analogy. You don’t have a constitutional right to just electively shoot another person. Only in the case of defending yourself or someone else. If you want to relate it to abortion, think of it as sort of a life of the mother exception.
And there are plenty of other uses for guns. I’m not going to list them out for your lazy ass. Look ‘em up yourself.
One particular use deserves mention -- shooting rabid animals.
Rabid animals that WILL attack people.
Yes, we know, we saw "Old Yeller"
What's the difference between a right to have a car for transportation and the right to run over innocent people with it? The world, or at least ReaderY, may never know!
You mean cars that are licensed, that may only be driven by people who are also licensed, that in most states must be insured, and that many states require drivers education as a condition of getting a license? Those are the cars you're talking about?
Be very careful with the car analogy. it has a high potential to come back to bite you in the butt.
Take your own advice.
You mean cars that anyone or any age can buy for cash, completely legally, without insurance, license, ID, or background check, of any horsepower or weight or top speed, that can be driven by anyone without a license everywhere but public roads?
I thought that comparison got retired as lame in about 1982.
Exactly what is a SUV but a 3-ton guided missile with 25-30 gallons of high explosive in the rear? And this time of year, in these locales, with a steel battering ram (snow plow) mounted on the front….
As an aside, you're not supposed to be going more than 45 MPH with plow mounted, but people do....
Speaking of lame. Among other things, gasoline isn't a high explosive.
OK, thermobaric. Whatever....
Clearly it hasn't been retired by people who want to show off their ignorance of the relevant laws.
Oh, please Mr. Krychek_2, don’t throw me into the briar patch!
Let’s see. I can go to any state or country and legally buy any car I can afford and bring it back to my home in California. I don’t need any government background check, license, insurance, waiting period, special classes to buy any car I want to use on private property. I can modify my cars anyway I like to use on private property. I can buy as many as I can afford as often as I want. I can even buy them on the internet and have them delivered straight to my home. With an easy to get license that has only one practical test in a lifetime for the vast majority of drivers that is shall issue and is good for at least five years I can drive my car in any state in the country. I do need liability insurance that is affordable and easy to get and annual registration that costs less that 2% of the value of the car. But then I get to use my car anywhere in the country. No matter how fast it goes. Even if it is fully automatic. And I can lend my car to anyone I choose without going through any paperwork, background checks, or waiting periods. Hell, even felons can buy a car and be issued a license to drive it that is valid anywhere in he country.
Do you really want guns to be treated like cars? I would be very much okay with that.
BTW, our esteemed host Prof. Volokh has a posted in the past on this very issue much more eloquently than I can.
Except that 90% of the value of having a car is being able to drive it on public roads, which requires licensing and insurance. So yes, you can buy a car with no ID check and with no driver's license; you just won't be able to drive it home.
So, if you really and truly are insisting on using this analogy, you can buy a gun, you just can't take it to any public place. Which means that as a practical matter, you can keep it at home in your gun cabinet.
Nonsense. As Harvey pointed out in his original comment, cars are only subject to state regulations when driven on public roads, which by definition excludes all private property. And I can tow an unlicensed/uninsured/non street legal car over those public roads between my house to a privately-owned facility such as -- just say, a racetrack -- and have at it, subject to the proprietor's rules.
Yes, you can do a lot of things with it, except for the one thing most car owners actually want to do with their cars, which is drive them on public roads. If you don't care about that, then you're right, you don't need a license. So, if you're willing to grant that gun owners can possess guns for everything except the thing that actually makes them worth owning, then I guess you've got yourself a pretty decent analogy.
And that means that guns cannot be carried any place that is public property, including roads. Being able to carry is one of the most important features of gun ownership, so if, like the vehicle, you don't get to have it for its most important feature, then you can't carry it anywhere.
Hey, I must have missed the part about driver’s licenses in the Bill of Rights. Can you point me to it?
Actually, you can't FIRE it anywhere -- and a lot of places have laws or ordinances prohibiting the discharge of firearms.
HAVE, yes -- drive or fire, no.
The restriction on race cars, ORV's and so on is that you can't *operate* them on public roads. But you can *possess* them, even on public roads (for example, on a trailer) without restriction.
As a hobby machinist today, I can't take a couple of hours and make a Sten gun in my basement. I can't possess it, much less shoot it, even on my own property.
I can't as much as take a 50 year old AR-15 magazine into California, even locked in my trunk. I can put a Formula 1 car on a trailer and drive all over California without restriction.
I can buy a surplus Duece-and-a-half and license and drive it on public roads - or drive it on my own property without any paperwork[1]. I can't buy a surplus Ma Deuce under any circumstances[2].
[1]They are popular with neighbors at our cabin, for use as snow plows.
[2]The penalty for possessing an unregistered machine gun is 10 years and a $250000 fine. What's the fine for driving a car with expired tags in your neck of the woods?
(Crafting gun laws to minimize criminal use with minimum impact on the law abiding is an interesting topic. Saying 'cars are regulated more than guns' isn't the kind of careful discussion that helps)
My hat is off to your machining skills. Two hours! Wow.
Well, as an expert wordsmith, you should know that 'a couple' means 'a few': from Merriam Webster, for example: "an indefinite small number : few".
And as a gun expert, you surely know that Sten guns are pretty simple - per the Wiki article: "Over the period of manufacture, the Sten design was further simplified: the most basic model, the Mark III, could be produced from five man-hours of work".
And as a metalworking expert, I'm sure you know that machining has progressed in the 70 some years since WWII.
And back to the point of the thread, it's illegal for me to do, whether it takes 1 or 10 or 100 hours. Unlike welding up a chassis, which is completely legal.
How many man hours of work does it take to build an automobile on an assembly line? How many hours would it take you to do it in your basement?
Perhaps as a hobby machinist you have all the latest numerically controlled equipment? And ability to manufacture custom castings and forgings? And the heat treating equipment and technique? I figure there are probably some people with basements like that, so why not you, right?
I'm a little baffled why you think the question of man hours is relevant to the cars-v-gun question.
Guns aren't hard to make in a home shop. Well, some are - I made a 1911, and that's a doozy - you have to make special tooling for several features, e.g. the magazine catch retainer slot. Even measuring some of the features requires some creativity. And single stack mag wells are hard, because they are long and skinny; a double stack is a lot easier. AR-15's are a piece of cake by comparison - all standard tooling, nothing that takes long skinny tools, and with few exceptions not a lot of tight tolerances.
There used to be a young lady on youtube that did a series about making a cowboy type single action revolver. That was a hard project, and she did beautiful work, with really minimal equipment. Really a tour de force. Lots harder than, say, a Glock.
I don't have a lot of CNC stuff (many hobbyists do, I'm just Luddite-ish by choice), but I have more than any WWII factory :-). Which isn't relevant to the design in question. Heat treating - sure, I built a heat treat oven. I was having trouble getting the springs for pocket knives right until I built that. That was harder to build than a gun - I spent 3 or 4 days on that.
You're into photography, right? Ever heard of anyone with a home darkroom? Lots of people don't have darkrooms, and wouldn't know how to begin. But that doesn't imply you need a factory to develop film.
Lots of people have neither the knowledge nor tools to change their own oil, but there are also people who can pull engines to replace a clutch or whatever. I've done that a couple of times myself, and I don't particularly like working on cars. If no one you know does that, well, Pauline Kael probably doesn't know anyone who does either.
None of which bears on the fact that you go to prison for merely having the wrong gun, or parts, in your basement, and you don't go to prison for having car parts in your basement.
I think most people would be okay if a state regulates what kinds of guns can be used at state-owned firing ranges, and what training is a prerequisite. At least if there are privately owned firing ranges as an alternative. Did you have a point?
It's perfectly legal to transport an extensively modified car on the public roads, and very few people would complain if it was then used in an emergency.
ReaderY 4 hours ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
Calling abortion the only constitition right that involves the deliberate taking of human life was a bit of an exaggeration.
What exactly are “arms” for?
ReaderY - as the historical written record notes - for self defence & the common defence
And how exactly do you use arms to defend yourself or the community?
Shoot said rabid racoon before it mauls a small child?
"On their face, these restrictions admit of no exceptions. Defendants have asserted, and the district court held, that these restrictions on day care homes have effect only during business hours, when the day care is operating. No such limitation appears in the text of the statutory or regulatory provisions at issue, however—and on their face, those provisions apply absolutely, at all times. "
Courts and state agencies lie? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!
Never underestimate the stupidity and ignorance of a bureaucrat.
I’m more inclined to believe that they simply don’t know that — and that they’ve never even read their own regulations. I’ve seen that happen way too many times, I’ve seen too many bureaucrats genuinely surprised when I’ve handed them a highlighted section of their own regs.
And a judge believing what the bureaucrat is saying without independently verifying it -- that would never happen, would it?
Disaffected, right-wing, anti-government cranks who dislike modern America are among my favorite inconsequential culture war casualties.
Never underestimate the stupidity and ignorance of a bureaucrat.
Says former bureaucrat.
Prof. Volokh wants to talk about this case.
He didn't want to talk about this one.
Clingers gonna cling.
Partisans gonna hack.
Gun nuts gonna lose., because culture wars have consequences.
Rev. Costco posts:
Deja vu all over again.
Which one? That a white teacher, probably a liberal, trying to do good by teaching 85 IQ black children to read, was shot by a black six year old?
Version I heard is that child arrived late and office searched his backpack because they thought he had a gun in it.
HOW do you not find a gun in a backpack if you honestly are looking for it?!?
Same way the SEC doesn’t find a Ponzi scheme in Madoff’s enterprise when they’re specifically told that Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme?
'Version I heard'
Ok.
Jerry's gonna "Jerry"
Which one? That a white teacher, probably a liberal, trying to do good by teaching 85 IQ black children to read, was shot by a black six year old?
Tone down the racism and look at the facts -- (a) they (somehow) thought that the child had a gun. That's not something one usually associates with a 6-year-old.
And (b) they searched the backpack but couldn't find it.
Forget "Liberal" and try "INCOMPETENT"....
The fact is, race matters. Any serious analysis of problems in America and the West requires an analysis on race.
Actually, no -- if you balance for differences in the illegitimacy rate, or better father still living under the same roof as children, you won't find any racial differences. It's just that the Black illegitimacy rate is now 76%...
Boy, are you at the wrong blog.
How much historical tradition is there of gun regulation in the context of day cares and foster homes, which became common and highly regulated long after the period whose history is to be examined?
In the absence of evidence, do we say
* Modern licensed child facilities have no historical analog, therefore there is no precedent for gun-related regulations.
* Modern licensed child facilities have no historical analog, therefore they can be regulated in any way imaginable.
* 20th century kids got to walk home from first grade, play with lawn darts, and do things unimaginable to modern nannies, so kids from the Bruen era were likely even less regulated.
There's none, and all of these restrictions are unconstitutional. Even most of the prohibitions in government buildings are unconstitutional, but the fascist left know that they can delay things.
There were Massachusetts high schools with rifle teams as late as the 1980s. I believe that the Boy Scouts *still* have 11-year-olds shooting .22 rifles.
Back in the 1950s, a high school student would bring his gun to show to the Vice Principal, who would tell him it was a nice one. As late as the 1970s, many high schools had an unwritten policy that a student in good academic/discipline standing could be late to school once a week during deer season.
And this is informative: https://nypost.com/2018/03/31/when-toting-guns-in-high-school-was-cool/
...and of course there were shooting galleries (no not drugs) at boardwalks and fairs throughout the country utilizing .22 cal. rifles.
Yup, Bumble. And those guns fired .22 short bullets with lead powder bullets, and muzzle energy < 100 ft/lbs. One source I found claimed he had tested them on window panes without breaking them. Don't know if I buy that, but those arcade setups aren't examples of anything to do with modern guns used for self-defense.
Remember that most of these high school gun clubs were coached by WWII vets with ammo provided by the US Army. (It still was providing .22 ammo to the Boy Scouts, free of charge, in the 1980s -- the issue being that they wanted young people to learn marksmanship.)
Two things happened in 1969 to make guns very unpopular -- first was the assassination of both Dr. King and Robert Kennedy (along with his brother six years earlier). The other, that people tend to forget about, was the increasingly unpopular Vietnam war.
1969 was the peak of US troop levels in Vietnam -- and people who supported both the military and the mission (as most of these gun club coaches would have) became increasingly unpopular.
In much of the country, "gun" became a four-letter word -- but it hadn't been. Remember too that prior to WWII, a lot of the National Guard units were *town* guard units with all their members living in the town, and practicing in an armory in town. Yes, it was a "state militia" but the units were local.
Question for commenters, readers, and the writers: suppose tomorrow there were five shootings in schools carried out by single-digit-age kids. Would any of you change your position on this subject in any way? Or would you continue with your present positions, which seem to be variations on the theme "Oh well, that's life, sometimes bad things happen, so get used to it"?
You think that tomorrow there might be a 50% increase in the kind of incident that has happened 11 times since 1999? Incidents like the Newport News one, where the school knew the kid needed a parent with him every day to manage his behavior, where the kid had previously threatened a different teacher with death, where the school searched the kid's backpack for the gun but missed it? There are a lot of things that could be fixed there, but firearm rules are not the most obvious.
If tomorrow a bunch of people were caught verbally plotting a string of murders, would it change your mind about freedom of speech?
No. Wrongs committed with firearms really aren't relevant here, any more than fraud is relevant to freedom of speech, forgery relevant to freedom of the press.