The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Two Cheers for "What About …?"
People often condemn "whataboutism": "responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue." And there's much to that condemnation is some situations. If my favorite politician Walter is exposed for having taken bribes, and my response is, "What about the politician Christopher on the other side who also took bribes?," the answer is that it doesn't matter: My guy Walter is still corrupt. Even if the argument exposes the media for covering one politician's bribetaking more than the others (or exposes others for their hypocrisy), Walter nonetheless remains corrupt.
But that makes particular sense when the accusation really is of clear misbehavior. Let's say the underlying question is quite contested: Say, for instance, that Judge Walter is faulted because the judge's spouse is involved in controversial politics, or because the judge was hobnobbing with politicians, or because the judge spoke to an ideological group. That's not against any clear defined rule: The Code of Conduct for federal judges, for instance, forbids "political activity" by judges, but doesn't define the term (other than prohibiting some specific kinds of such activity), and has an exception for various "law-related pursuits and civic, charitable, educational, religious, social, financial, fiduciary, and governmental activities," so long as they do not "detract from the dignity of the judge's office, interfere with the performance of the judge's official duties, reflect adversely on the judge's impartiality, lead to frequent disqualification, or violate [certain particular] limitations."
The question then might be how one interprets these vague terms, or what broader ethical or legal principles one thinks apply here, or what institutional norms may have developed that elaborate on the formal rules. And there it makes sense to ask: How would the critics react when judges from (to oversimplify) their own side of the aisle, say Judge Christopher, behave similarly? If they wouldn't or didn't see any problem with that, that might mean that actually the rules or principles don't clearly condemn what Judge Walter did. Likewise, it might mean that the supposed institutional norm hasn't really been recognized.
In either event, asking "What about what Judge Christopher did?" might lead us to reasonably conclude that Judge Walter's behavior was fine. To be sure, perhaps we might conclude that Judge Christopher's behavior was also bad (even if people didn't notice it at the time) and Judge Walter's behavior was therefore bad, too. Or we might conclude that the behaviors are actually quite different, and should be treated differently. Or we might conclude that we shouldn't fault Judge Walter or Judge Christopher personally, but that on reflection we should establish norms or rules going forward forbidding such behavior. But in any event, bringing up the "counteraccusation" would be helpful.
And this is so because of an obvious feature of human nature: When people are asked to apply vague standards, they routinely interpret them more harshly against their adversaries than against their friends. The best way of checking that tendency is to think about how the standard applies to both. If the reaction of those who like Judge Christopher is "Judge Christopher did nothing wrong," then maybe their initial reaction criticizing Judge Walter stemmed from their disapproval of Walter on other matters, and not from a fair application of the asserted principle or norm.
Of course, maybe their bias is in their endorsement of Judge Christopher's actions—maybe they were unduly kind to Judge Christopher, rather than being unduly harsh to Judge Walter. Or maybe the answer is somewhere in between. But in any event, thinking about how one's analysis applies to one's friends as well as one's foes can help one take a more fairminded view of the matter.
The same may apply when people are evaluating the magnitude of an offense, rather than its presence. Is something a peccadillo, meriting just some mild criticism? Should it instead lead to firing? Impeachment? Criminal prosecution? There too seeing how we would react to a similar offense by our friend Senator Christopher rather than by our adversary Senator Walter can help us more fairly grasp the magnitude of the punishment. (And that's true even if the person raising this argument is himself doing it for partisan reasons.)
One shouldn't let the misconduct of people on the other side blind us to the genuine misconduct of people on our own. But when deciding what constitutes misconduct, and what is the magnitude of the misconduct, it's helpful for all people to see what happens when the shoe is on the other foot.
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So the question becomes, “Is this a case of selective prosecution?” Person A is accused of misconduct. Person A raises a defense that their behavior/actions are commonplace and point to the behavior/actions of Persons B, C, D, E and F. They committed the same actions and they were not prosecuted.
Sometimes, but not always. In selective prosecution cases, A's behavior might be clearly criminal, but we might object that prosecuting A but not the others is violating some equality norm.
But in the cases that I describe, the argument is mainly that how B, C, D, etc. were treated (or how just B was treated) suggests that the behavior isn't really misconduct -- that some standard or norm is being stretched to cover A, while it really shouldn't (and the treatment of the others is evidence of that).
That's fair. It is sad though when one side, Side A, continues non-criminal but ethically gray behavior. Over time their behavior can get worse. They keep getting away with it so their behavior keeps getting worse and worse and the feel comfortable with this. It is accepted as normal and "everyone who matters" - judges, prosecutors, the press - do not hold Side A culpable.
Then Side B does the exact same thing, or different but functionally equivalent thing. Side A howls with outrage and "everyone who matters" pursues Side be with a vengeance. People who are not aligned with either side first see the news as framed by Side B and are convinced that Side A is culpable.
What is the appropriate response? Side B needs to be punished for its actions, but what about Side A? Should they get off without punishment? Hey, statute of limitations...our bad actions were committed too long ago (during a period when we exclusively had the discretion to choose not to expose and prosecute these bad actions)? This will make nonaligned people cynical about the whole process.
The point of such comparisons is well taken -- if you're going to prosecute A for particular conduct, then B, C, and D should not be allowed to get away with it, too. Conversely if they are allowed to get away with it, then so should A and the law should be stricken from the books.
Anyone who complains about "whataboutism" is simply admitting to hypocrisy.
What's wrong with hypocrisy? The US position is that we should be allowed to have nuclear weapons but Iran and North Korea should not. Isn't that hypocrisy?
If an alcoholic father tells his children to not become alcoholics, isn't that hypocrisy? He's still right.
Hypocrisy makes the world go round. So what?
The US position is that we should be allowed to have nuclear weapons but Iran and North Korea should not. Isn’t that hypocrisy?
No. And "The US" doesn't have a position. It's a political construct, not a sentient being. The positions that thinking individual U.S. residents have on the matter vary, but for the most part seem to boil down to, "While it would be ideal if no countries possessed such weapons, the U.S. does and since the experience of WWII there is vanishingly little reason to think that they would be used offensively. The same is true of most other nations that are not under the control of paranoid/despotic dictatorial regimes. And given their possession by powers like Russia and China, it makes no sense for the U.S. to unilaterally disarm itself (of nukes). It does however make sense to prevent further proliferation of nuclear weapons, especially when it comes to the aforementioned paranoid/despotic regimes, where the risk of their use would be substantially elevated due to the nature of those regimes and their relationships with their neighbors."
But I guess you didn't even try to ponder the situation beyond the childishly simple-minded conclusion you stumbled into.
Wuz, I'm not going to waste my time trying to talk sense into someone who believes that the United States, as a political construct, doesn't take positions. Every federal law is the United States taking a position on some issue or other. If you don't even understand that, then you should let the grownups talk in peace.
As usual, you're such a dishonest coward that you manufacture an excuse to avoid acknowledging the substance of the argument in a hypocritical (ironic, no?) attempt to defend your own childish argument while declaring yourself to be one of "the grownups".
As usual, you have no coherent argument beyond tossing insults, so there's really nothing for me to respond to. I already pointed out the foundational error in your argument: The United States can and does take positions, all the time. They're called federal statutes, treaties, and executive orders, just to name some.
LOL! You claiming that the first (and briefest) part of my comment was the foundational one constitutes yet another (one of a great many) examples of you proving yourself to be a liar, an idiot...or both.
No, what it proves is that I don't have to eat an entire apple to know it's rotten and wormy. If your lead argument is that bad, anything that follows is likely not worth reading.
And I'm not going to engage you point by point because why would I? You rarely contribute anything other than venom, you've repeatedly demonstrated a gross failure to understand basic legal premises, and you never open your mouth without subtracting from the sum total of human knowledge. So why should I engage you? I'd rather spend the time on something worth my while.
If your lead argument is that bad, anything that follows is likely not worth reading.
Like I said, you’re a dishonest coward.
you’ve repeatedly demonstrated a gross failure to understand basic legal premises
LOL! That means a lot coming from someone who thinks a fetus, if declared to be a person for purposes of a legal right to life, could be prosecuted for trespassing in it’s mother’s womb.
I’d rather spend the time on something worth my while.
That’s pretty funny coming at the end of yet another (again, in a long string of) instance of you spending time and effort attempting to rationalize your childish stupidity.
Wuz, here is a Youtube link to a talk on why do incompetent people think they're awesome. You should listen to it. You might learn something useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-kajMiu9DA
In other words, Wuz, m'dear, if someone looks up "Dunning Kruger Effect" in the dictionary, they'll find your photo, shot tastefully from behind.
Still going with the dishonest coward routine? Your lack of self-awareness is astounding.
You stole my go-to insult! It's ok, you can use it. You're just self-inflicting damage anyway, calling the kettle black and all.
YEP!
Nonsense, Was Young.
The US has such a position articulated for POTUS (a person) in the Nuclear Posture Review that is updated at least once in every administration.
That position is not what is in the mind generally "thinking individual U.S. residents"
Next time "try to ponder the situation beyond the childishly simple-minded conclusion you stumbled into."
If you think the NPR is the equivalent of a "position" of the simplistic sort ("We can have nukes but you can't, neener, neener") that Krycheck describes then you should bow out now.
Wow are you dense. It is the OFFICIAL PUBLIC Position (a term of art, dumbie) of the United States of American issued on behalf of POTUS - a person.
Read the damn thing before mouthing off
In the meanwhile, go back into your hole
No?
The US also thinks that the U.S. government should exercise sovereignty over Washington DC but that the governments of Iran and North Korea should not. Do you think that’s hypocritical?
For that matter, during the Korean War, the U.S. government thought it was good when American soldiers killed a bunch of North Korean soldiers but bad when North Korean soldiers killed a bunch of Americans. Hypocrisy!
No with respect to DC because there's no hypocrisy in the claim that a government is sovereign over its own territory. DC is US territory, not Korean or Persian.
As for the Korean War, whether it's hypocritical depends on how you phrase it. Your phrasing was that "it's good" when American soldiers kill enemy combatants but not vice versa. "Good" and "not hypocritical" do not mean the same thing; they're different issues. Second, that position is "good" from the perspective of our military aims. North Korea, of course, had different military aims than we did.
It would be hypocritical if we had taken the position that North Korea is bound by international law but we're not.
But hovering over this is the point that both you and Wuz have missed, which is that hypocrisy, per se, is morally neutral. It depends on whether it is being employed in the service of a good result or a bad result. It is hypocritical for the US to have a nuclear stockpile while telling Iran that it can't, but it's hypocrisy for a good end. It is hypocritical for a police officer who himself was speeding five minutes earlier to write someone a ticket for speeding; if traffic laws could only be enforced by people who never violate them, there would be no traffic law enforcement. It's hypocritical for a woman with a drug problem to tell her children not to use drugs. All of those are, in fact, hypocrisy, but we don't care because we recognize that frail humans frequently don't live up to their own standards.
And the question is whether the standard itself is valid, not whether the person upholding it is morally pure.
It is hypocritical for the US to have a nuclear stockpile while telling Iran that it can’t
No it isn't, as I already spelled out for you. But that clearly sailed way over your head as you were busy scrambling to cobble together one of your standard 3rd grade retorts.
An ipse dixit is not "spelling it out".
I'm sorry that causing you to actually give something some thought that requires more than your usual playground mentality causes you so much distress.
"clearly sailed way over your head as you were busy scrambling to cobble together one of your standard 3rd grade retorts"
Again, you describe your own "3rd grade" thinking.
It is published official policy of POTUS for three decades that the US will prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons.
Your pedantic avoidance of the substance is as sad as Krychek's.
WUZ,
If all you know is name calling go back to your beloved third grade.
Words fly through you head like light through the vacuum
But the foundational problem is that your key examples aren’t examples of hypocrisy, because it’s trivial to draw a principled distinction between the U.S. and Iran such that one having nuclear weapons is less concern than the other. Similarly, it’s not hypocritical for a police officer who breaks traffic laws during a high speed chase to write a ticket for a normal driver, nor for Chief Justice Roberts to tell me I’m not allowed to go to the Supreme Court and preside over oral arguments even though he does it all the time.
What’s wrong with hypocrisy is that it casts doubt on both the honesty of, and necessity for, the general case of the rule being violated.
For instance, when California was under an emergency lockdown order but then first Newsom and then Pelosi flouted the rule and got caught on video, it didn’t just mean they were imperfect people. It amounted to an admission by both of them that they knew the rule was unnecessary and that there wasn’t really any emergency necessitating it. And all courts subsequently judging people accused of breaking the rule should have accepted that fact into evidence and struck down the rule.
If Pelosi had taken the position that Democrats can have their hair done but Republicans can't, you'd have a point. But that's not what happened.
I've been trying to lose weight for the past 40 years. When I reach for a piece of double chocolate truffle cake, it doesn't mean that I think eating it will help me lose weight. And if I tell someone else who is trying to lose weight that they shouldn't eat double chocolate truffle cake, I'm not wrong. All any of that means is that at that moment, I lacked the will power to live up to my goals. And most of the time, the answer to "but you're a hypocrite" is "so what"?
40 years?? do what I did when I got a little pudgy in med school, (155 or maybe 160, 165 on my 5'10, OK, 5'9" frame)
Get the single McDonalds/Wendy's burger, without Cheese, you don't have to get fries with that, Exercise, and what's an adult doing eating cake anyway? I'll have a slimjim or some beernuts at happy hour
Oh, yeah, pack of Marlboros a day, Nicotine does have some beni's
Frank "Cough"
Oh gimme a break. First of all, when the rulemaker (I am talking about Newsom here) breaks the rules, it's a problem. That you say, "So what?" is a problem.
That's not really the right analogy, because it doesn't have the rule of law for it.
The proper analogy would be, you as head of the household would dictate that "We're not going to eat chocolate cake, period, all of us together, in order to reduce our weight" even as your children protest. Then secretly, you eat chocolate cake, while simultaneously banning your kids from doing it.
Not just ban them but punish them severely.
Maybe it’s not exactly what you mean, but I think it’s interesting that it’s actually well-established in law that selective prosecution (A and B commit the same crime; A gets prosecuted but B doesn’t) is fine if it’s for a legitimate purpose.
In other words: Our system recognizes that enforcement discretion includes not just discretion over which laws to enforce but also who to enforce them against.
For example, cops and prosecutors may prioritize taking down street dealers ahead of busting drug dealers who do business behind closed doors, even though both commit the same crime. This disparate treatment is fine if it’s for public safety reasons (‘broken windows’ theory - street dealers visibly degrade their communities; they also get into violent confrontations with one another) but it’s not OK if it’s done for discriminatory reasons (‘behind closed doors’ dealers may be more likely to be white).
So treating the same offenses by different people differently is OK as long as it's for a good reason, and "because I don't like that guy" isn't a good reason.
" Side B needs to be punished for its actions,"
Says who? "non-criminal but ethically gray" is not something anyone should be punished for in any official sense.
The Democrats in DC. The juries there convict Republicans for actions where they acquit Democrats. See the Sussman acquittal and compare that with the Lawrence Libby conviction.
"So the question becomes, “Is this a case of selective prosecution?” Person A is accused of misconduct. Person A raises a defense that their behavior/actions are commonplace and point to the behavior/actions of Persons B, C, D, E and F. They committed the same actions and they were not prosecuted."
It's a bit more complicated than that. Person A would need to show that the conduct of Persons B, C, D, E and F was known to the prosecuting authority. See, Oyler v. Boles, 368 U.S. 448, 456 (1962) (a failure to prosecute others because of a lack of knowledge of their prior offenses does not deny equal protection). Person A would need to show further that the prosecutor's selection was deliberately based upon an unjustifiable standard such as race, religion, or other arbitrary classification. Ibid. ("[T]he conscious exercise of some selectivity in enforcement is not in itself a federal constitutional violation.")
Race, color or nationality are impermissible bases for discriminatory prosecution. See, Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886). Punishing the exercise of protected statutory and constitutional rights is impermissible where the selection both had a discriminatory effect and was motivated by a discriminatory purpose. Wayte v. United States, 470 U.S. 598, 608 (1985).
Successful assertion of selective prosecution as a defense to criminal charges is vanishingly rare.
There's a lot to be said for Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right.
But three do.
Actually, two wrongs make twice as many wrongs, but try and convince partisans of that.
On the other hand, three rights make a left.
Indeed! But the question is whether the behavior is Wrong in the first place. Maybe if people look at the reactions to their guy's behavior, they'll see that the behavior of both their guy and our guy is actually Right, or perhaps at least Not Wrong.
Indeed. I was just reinforcing your point that pointing out the bad behavior of others never excuses your own transgressions.
Try telling the cop who pulled you over that everyone else was going faster then you were.
Or try telling the meter maid, in his role as highway robber, that he gave a ticket to me but not my buddy, who had business plates, that it was wrong.
"if men were angels..."
Three lefts make a right.
That is called a "chicken jibe."
I take Eugene's point that violations of vague standards are sometimes in the eye of the beholder and the tendency is to treat one's own side more favorably than the other. But even then, I think the question of whether Judge X violated the standard is far more pressing than the question of whether Judge Y got away with violating the same standard. There will always be people who get away with things. That's not a reason to let everybody else get away with it.
I will also point out that almost none of the what-abouting that I see in the comments here involves vague standards. It's almost always when someone was engaged in behavior that everyone knows is unacceptable, and his supporters have nothing to offer except "what about".
They also tend to involve equating wrongs that are not commensurate.
'All politicians lie at times, which is the same as this one that has lied about everything ever, thus making him below concern.'
It might also apply to consequences.
Look at how much attention Congressman Santos got for being a consummate liar. Of course, some argued, he must be disqualified from office (although there is not liar provision in the Constitution), and shame on the GOP for not condemning him as the worst thing since Hitler.
But then you have a consummate, long time liar in the White House, whom every one excuses. That's only routine BS, they say, but this is unique lying that requires the death penalty.
So, I don't agree. Whataboutism has its place when you are arguing for uniform standards of behavior and/or uniform consequences.
Oh hay false equivalence.
The level of scam artist completely false past is basically unprecedented in recent memory, not like whatever you're mad at Biden about.
Great example, BL!
Yep, you continue to carry water for your side. Biden has told so many lies about so many things that he is a consummate liar. He is not just the occassional liar. If Santos is so bad that he must be disqualified (and I agree he is very bad, although there is no legal mechanism to do so, other than elections), then Biden is very bad indeed.
And the fact that you still are hemming and hawing and excusing just highlights the problem. Last time we posted on this, only one person admitted that Biden is a serial fabulist who should not be in office.
So many lies, you say. So many lies! Taking Biden’s dishonesty as read only plays in places like The Federalist.
Even if you're right (you're not), you can hold Biden to account without using your spite at him to excuse Santos as some persecuted relative innocent.
"Taking Biden’s dishonesty as read only plays in places like The Federalist."
That's just another way of saying Democrats routinely carry water for him. That he routinely lies isn't actually in dispute.
At his MLK speech Sunday he was spouting whoppers a mile a minute, including some he's previously admitted weren't true.
Brett, you do realize you're arguing this with someone who is himself a long-established pathological liar, right?
You seem only able to name-call these days.
It's not a name, it's a description.
Certainly true of his posts today.
These days?
Since about 2016.
He's -- or should I say it's -- the most likely candidate for being an experimental bot.
Wait, Brett's arguing with you? I missed that.
The list of things you've missed would stretch to the moon and back...multiple times.
OK so you don't dispute that "Brett's arguing with you (Wuz) is the appropriate response to the claim that Brett's arguing with a pathological liar. Noted.
You would make an interesting psychological case study in what causes one's mental and emotional development to permanently arrest at the preschool level.
The rush to side with a long-established pathological liar whining about being labeled a pathological liar...while pathological lying throughout this thread...would be funny were it not so pathetic.
"whatever you’re mad at Biden about"
Do some research. Unless you are being disingenuous.
You might start here, that well know right wing outfit, CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/20/politics/fact-check-biden-false-claims-first-year-2021/index.html
LOL. Typical CNN:
"When President Joe Biden passingly said in a voting rights speech last week that he had been “arrested” in the context of the civil rights movement – even suggesting this had happened more than once – it was a classic Biden false claim: an anecdote about his past for which there is no evidence, prompted by a decision to ad-lib rather than stick to a prepared text, resulting in easily avoidable questions about his honesty. "
Easily avoidable by not lying, perchance? And yeah, let's pretend there's no evidence on most of his whoppers.
Trump is a "braggadocio" type liar. He tends to spout self-aggrandizing lies that you hardly expect anyone to take seriously. Biden is a more folksy version of the same thing. It would be amusing to see how they'd stack up against each other if ever subject to the same standard, not that THAT is at all likely to happen.
Obama was actually a much worse liar, because while he didn't lie as often or as casually, unlike Trump or Biden, he calculatedly lied to mislead the public about substantive matters of policy, such as the consequences of adopting his health care 'reform'.
I agree with you about Trump and Biden. But I think Trump also lies in significant, intentional ways. Like the Big one, to take one example. I don’t see that really from Biden.
The only Obama lie that I'm aware of, which the right trots out on every possible occasion, is "you'll be able to keep your doctor." Certainly misleading, but on par with like "you may already have won." Do you have other examples?
Yeah, I'm clearly in a big ignorant bubble which is why I come to this comments section.
Nah, it's just a big ignorant role playing exercise, as I've often noted.
Ah yes, I'm actually a big liar and come here so I can lie.
Whatever, dude.
You come here to lie, gaslight and bootlick the elites.
I'm sure you don't view it as lying. Most too-clever/too-cute specialists don't.
Brian thinks you’re cute!
(^^)
\/
(That’s my attempt at a heart.)
Not sure why you come here but for sure it isn't to break the "big ignorant bubble" you live in.
Here's a good one:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/05/24/joe_bidens_buffalo_speech_was_the_speech_of_an_indecent_man_147643.html
Dennis Prager caught President Biden in an outright lie. Biden claimed that a (then) recent shooting in Dallas was motivated by "white supremacy." Only problem? The shooter was black.
Surely you know that when black people commit heinous crimes, it's because they were pushed to it by white supremacy? Just as JFK's assassination, by a Communist (or maybe just a Comsymp, if you want to be technical and say he never joined the CPUSA) was actually caused by the right-wing climate of hate in Dallas.
First of all, it’s “hey”.
And you just proved the professor’s point. As you do with every post.
Biden is a well documented serial liar who has done it over decades. The nature of his lies are different than Santos lies, but they’re lies nonetheless. But you hide behind your usual FALSE EQUIVALENCE!!! crap instead of simply acknowledging that neither guy is all that honest.
You and people like you are the problem.
I'm under no illusions that Joe Biden is a saint. I'm active in Democratic Party politics at the national level and I've met him several times. I like his policies (most of them anyway) but he is a flawed human being, and I would never claim anything else.
And with respect to Santos, I will admit to being surprised at the way the story has taken off. When the story first broke, I thought Santos would get a couple of days' embarrassing publicity and it would then go away. Wrong. (Apparently Oscar Wilde was wrong; there is such a thing as bad publicity.)
But the standard for both of them is whether the specific lies in question are disqualifying. I would say in both cases probably not. I would also say that if Santos is forced out of office over them and Biden is not (or vice versa), "but the other guy got away with it" is not an argument or an excuse. As I said before, there will always be people who get away with things; that's not a reason to let everybody else get away with them.
Expelling a single congressman is different than expelling a president, I agree.
I’m saying don’t condemn Santos while defending Biden. Don’t condemn Biden while defending Trump. Consistency of principles is something sorely missing from our go tans our politics.
I will proudly defend Biden while condemning Santos and Trump.
Their lies are not equivalent.
Biden is not a saint, and I'll criticize his lies on a case-by-case basis.
The other two have a broader systemic problem.
I know the right wing media tries to pretend Biden's lies are legion and systemic. But I'm quite comfortable saying they are not.
And the broad-swath cynical approach of 'all politicians are beneath my standards of integrity' is no less lame; you're quitting the field to stand on your high horse and get nothing done.
Shorter Sarc: "I will swill beer and root for my team just like the rest of you, but I'll come up with an endless litany of high-sounding, sophisticated turns of phrase to try to mask that."
“Not equivalent” is your tool for ignoring your sides bullshit. Your crutch.
Who gives a shit about equivalent? Biden’s lies considered alone are lies. Period.
Trump is not supposed to have confidential documents in his possession. Period.
Santos lies judged by themselves are lies. Period.
Biden is not supposed to have confidential documents in his possession. Period.
For some reason you aren’t capable of thinking like that. And I don’t mean to pick on you. More than half the posters on this board can’t. Nobody in the media can do it. The inability for people to think like that is a rot that is ruining us.
"The other two have a broader systemic problem."
Just Sunday he repeated his oft told lie about going to a black church in high school. At a MLK observance!
He lies like Trump about every detail of his life. Full scholarship. Top of his law school class. Full professor at Penn. Drunk driver killed his wife. Gave his dead uncle the Purple Heart. His son died in Iraq. Declined Annapolis appointment. Of course a whole speech about his family being coal miners.
He let a doctor falsely claim he, a high school athlete, had asthma so he could dodge the draft. Trump got plenty of crap about bone spurs but Biden did the same thing.
There are plenty of others.
He gets away with it because of your ["I’m quite comfortable saying they are not"] attitude. Which is a lie in itself, liar.
Who gives a shit about equivalent? Biden’s lies considered alone are lies. Period.
I care. Nuance matters.
Broad-based condemnation of everyone is useless. It renders you with nothing to add at all to political discussions but repeated burnishing of your own righteousness again and again.
See. You just can’t do it. Not only do you accept your people’s cheating and lying, you defend it. You’re the problem with our politics.
Biden is an island. Regardless of whether Trump even exists, Biden is either honest or he’s not. He’s either principled or he isn’t.
Wanna do equivalents? You’re the equivalent of the Trumpistas. Defend some faults and condemn others, depending on the politics of the guy with the faults. People like you are why our governance is so fucked up and unpopular.
I *won't* do it, because it's reductive and dumb. Not that I can't do it. I'm not our here saying Biden's handling of classified materials was blameless perfection.
Biden is either honest or he’s not. He’s either principled or he isn’t.
This is not how to evaluate human beings. Manichean is not a complement.
You can call me like a Trump supporter all you want; it's too silly to really bother me. Amusing you ask me if I want to do equivalents, when my point is you're far too easy on that trigger.
You just can't seem to comprehend the difference between "equate" and "compare".
But I guess that you probably can but choose to act like you can't. Accusing someone who is comparing of equating and your Jedi mind-reading thing is part of the same behavior. You don't want to address something that someone actually said so instead you argue with something that they didn't say, trying to turn the discussion toward semantics and away from substance.
And your standing up and proudly admitting that you defend your sides lies and misbehavior demonstrates that you and people like you are the problem with our politics.
You're way beyond comparing to things that are not alike.
You are, as I said, into a black-and-white Manichean worldview. People are good or they're bad. That's where you appear to be.
It's not a good place to be.
Show your work. I don't accept that claim on its face.
"Biden is not a saint, and I’ll criticize his lies on a case-by-case basis."
You usually excuse his lies, like when you falsely claim that his comments about his son dying in Iraq were not lies.
Yes, that he did. They were actually craven lies.
A lie that is so easily and immediately checked seems an odd choice to me, and there are other ways to parse it that have a less ridiculous implication.
"A lie that is so easily and immediately checked seems an odd choice to me, and there are other ways to parse it that have a less ridiculous implication."
Santo's claim to be Jewish is easily checked, and there are other ways to parse it (Jew-ish) that have a less ridiculous implication.
That's a less ridiculous argument than what you made.
There's no way to parse "my son died in Iraq" to mean "my son's death may or may not have been linked to burn pits that he may have been exposed to in Iraq" unless you're carrying water for the guy on your side.
Was it so easily checked? Seems not, based on recent events!
How Beau Biden died is pretty common knowledge; Santos’ family legacy is not so.
I'm not saying Biden never lies - he absolutely does. But this seems an absurd result if assumed to be a lie.
I wouldn’t say this one was craven! In what way is it even self-serving? But I also don’t think its being easily checked or differently parsed really saves it.
To me, this one falls under how Biden’s brain works. It takes “son who died of a brain tumor” + “son who served in Iraq” = “son who died in Iraq.” The final phrase — the lie — is a mash-up of facts into the form of an idiom, almost a shorthand. A lot of Biden’s “lies” follow this pattern.
I think something similar is true of many of Trump’s “lies.” He has a way of speaking that lends itself to wild exaggerations that are best not taken literally. (Not all of Trump’s lies follow this pattern, but a lot of them do.)
The question with both Biden and Trump is, how much do they believe their own lies? I really don’t know. I get the sense that in both cases, it’s at least a little bit.
Santos's lies, by contrast, seem 100% intended to deceive. (He doesn't even get scare quotes.)
"Was it so easily checked? Seems not, based on recent events!"
Huh? Somebody at The Forward looked him up on a genealogy site.
"I wouldn’t say this one was craven! In what way is it even self-serving?"
He used it as an excuse for confusing Iraq and Ukraine. It's hard to get more craven than that.
And was the lie about getting arrested in Soweto intended to deceive?
And was the lie about getting arrested in Soweto intended to deceive?
You mean when he was detained but said "arrested"? No, that's even less of a fudge than the killed-in-Iraq one. It seems almost normal actually... I can easily see someone saying they were "arrested" at the airport after being detained by TSA.
People who don't comment on legal blogs aren't as attuned to the nuances of terms like arrest vs. detain. Plus do they even have the same definitions in South Africa? Probably but I don't know.
So no, I don't think Biden was intentionally trying to deceive people into thinking he was arrested and taken to jail when actually he was detained at the airport.
"You mean when he was detained but said “arrested”?"
Fudge? According to the BBC, "On Tuesday Mr Biden's deputy campaign manager, Kate Bedingfield, told reporters Mr Biden had been referring to an incident when "he was separated from his party at Johannesburg airport"
So he wasn't arrested, wasn't detained, it wasn't on the streets of Soweto, And there's no evidence he was on his way to see Mandela.
Other than that, great comment.
See, this is what carrying water for your own side looks like.
What do you think "separated" means? That he got lost? He was detained.
Separated, detained, it doesn't even matter. It fits exactly the pattern I described above of mashing up a bunch of true pieces into a false soundbyte. I'm not saying it's somehow true, I'm just highlighting the pattern and that it's a different sort of thing than Santos is doing.
You seem a little daft repeating over and over that he said a bunch of false stuff. No one's arguing with you there. Try to keep up.
"The other two have a broader systemic problem."
Any chance you can walk us through the non-partisan process for determining that your guy has a "non-systematic problem" (whatever that means), while your opponents have broader systemic problems?
We have a full-on scammer for whom nothing is true,
And someone who lies multiple times every day, as well documented by massive lists in the press, and as highlighted by fact-checking publications.
And then Biden is someone the right-wing really hates and is sometimes technically not quite right.
No one thinks Biden is extraordinarily dishonest except for those who uncritically swallow the rightest of media propagandists.
"I had the great honor of being arrested with our U.N. ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens Island."
That's "technically not quite right"?
This is what carrying water looks like, Sarcastro.
You're strawmanning. I've said in this thread even that Biden say stuff that's not true.
But so much of what you claim is a Biden lie turns out to be lies and propaganda.
“But so much of what you claim is a Biden lie turns out to be lies and propaganda.”
Lol. Yeah, I know.
" I like his policies (most of them anyway)...."
Care to give some examples of what you like and why?
Don't want to hijack the thread. I'll answer your question on the next Thursday open thread so as not to derail this one.
So what say you about Joe Biden's appalling smearing of the truck driver? Those are outright lies and very hurtful.
And what of Joe Biden's outright lie at the debate about the HUnter Biden laptop?
Well to be fair Biden lied about many of the same topics that Santos lied about specifically his background accomplishments.
Joe has falsely claimed:
He received a scholarship to law school.
He was the only one in his class to receive a scholarship.
He was first in his class.
He was a full professor at Penn.
Claimed to be from a coal mining family.
Claimed to be arrested in South Africa trying to see Nelson Mandela.
Stack that up against Santos' resume puffing they don't seem a lot different, other than Santos was more modest.
A demand for uniform consequences sounds like an argument against hypocrisy rather than an argument about the underlying conduct.
"Look at how much attention Congressman Santos got "
The media thinks Dems can win the special election and cut the already slim GOP margin.
The media's probably right on that one.
Yes, but so what? Biden lied about the laptop at the debate--was that ok? Should we have a special election?
You guys seem to think the decision to oust Santos is about principles. Surprise, it isn’t. It’s a great opportunity for the GOP to virtue signal. The question facing McCarthy is whether the virtue-signaling is worth the potential loss of a vote. (I think no, he’ll do as much virtue-signaling as possible, short of actually kicking Santos out.)
Apart from the culture war, the Republicans’ primary m.o. at the federal level is to gum up the works. They’ve decided that the system itself is the problem. The Democrats still want to use the system to solve problems.
Apply that to the documents case. Biden and Trump both ended up with confidential documents in their possession. I don’t see much difference there, except that if anything, Biden’s case is worse since he had them much longer and he was VP not P. But Biden, who still respects “the system,” did the “right thing” right away of giving the documents back, doing an audit, and giving those documents back too. Trump, who has no respect for the system, flaunted subpoenas and lied to courts.
To voters who don’t respect the system, Trump’s behavior is no worse than Biden’s. Fuck the FBI, am I right? To voters who do respect the system, Trump’s behavior is criminally insane compared to Biden’s.
So we’ve got one party that respects the federal government and one that doesn’t. That’s not such a new situation for the US. In fact, it’s probably the most common political alignment that we’ve had historically, more polarizing than traditional left / right as defined through economic policy.
But it’s a big change from the last > 100 years (especially the last 80). The first victims will be the institutions that the Democrats also inherently don’t trust, as traditional right-wing power centers: federal law enforcement and the military. Support for those is falling fast. (For similar reasons, big corporations are also in trouble. See Disney. As Republicans turn against corporate America, the Democrats are not going to come to its defense.)
if not what about it is always about varying degrees, as if one trespass is not as wrong as another and somehow that makes it better
Sharpening the pencil a bit, to me the typical rhythm around here is a bit more like:
"Hang on -- you never call this behavior unacceptable when it's someone you like, so can it really be all that unacceptable? For example, let's look at when..."
"ENOUGH WITH THE WHATABBOUTERY!"
No one is talking about accusations of hypocricy of the messanger, LoB. Everyone, including the OP, is talking about the truth of the matter asserted.
Not sure why you feel the need to lob one of your $20 phrases into the discussion and use it as a straw man, but in reality my comment was directly on point with Eugene's thesis whether something that "everyone knows is unacceptable" actually is so, or is just another subjective tool for the "pass, friend" crowd.
I contend that the scenario you see around here is not actually what happens. Because you framed it as an accusation of personal inconsistency/hypocricy.
But in reality it's used most often to just straight up to defend someone's wrongdoing independent of the messenger.
Just spitballing, I'd say the percentage of times an accusation is truly independent of an interested messenger is probably in the single digits. Pretending otherwise just feels like more of your Solomonic shtick.
Look at the current kerfuffle over Biden and documents. Democrats are strenuously defending him over his tone relative to Trump (after having spent months outraced at Trump) while completely ignoring the fact that neither was supposed to have them to begin with.
And everyone is ignoring the obvious fact that we appear to have a massive ongoing problem with confidential documents. Too busy going after the other guy to get to the root.
Or maybe a massive ongoing problem with Washington overclassifying documents.
Intentional or no, a plentiful supply of material like that helps support the current spears-from-the-fog game where a political enemy can be strung up by their thumbs for doing something bad with OMGCLASSIFIED material that the actor didn't chew and swallow after reading because the underlying information wasn't actually OMGCLASSIFIED, and we the people can't ever evaluate whether anything bad actually happened since, you know, we're not allowed to see OMGCLASSIFIED material.
I agree that we need to get to the root and fix the problem of confidential documents being where they shouldn't. But this, to me, is an example of a false equivalence. When it was called to Biden's attention that he had classified docs he shouldn't, he immediately self reported and turned them over to the Archives. As far as we can tell, he's cooperating fully with law enforcement. Trump did none of that. So the cases aren't even a good comparison for purposes of what aboutery.
It's the difference between the lawyer whose client trust account is screwed up because he's a sloppy bookkeeper but no client actually lost any money, versus the lawyer who is intentionally stealing from clients. Both of them are going to be in trouble with the bar, but the two are not morally equivalent.
You're missing the point of Biden so condescendingly declaring, “how that could possibly happen — how anyone could be that irresponsible” when it came to Trump, while he (Biden) himself had boxes of documents (albeit only some of which were classified) sitting in his garage next to his car (But it was locked!), not to mention a couple of other non-secured locations. And don't declare that you already know what the differences between the two incidents are. There are still some very significant questions left to be answered about the Biden case.
The very fact that the documents are labeled "classified" means that we're never going to know how they stack up against each other, because so few people will know what Trump had, or Biden had. This is compounded at the moment by the fact that the search for Biden documents isn't complete, and that he somehow managed to remove them from the White House without it having been logged, which is a whole nother issue.
Never mind the security and visitor logs for the Biden locations are atrocious at best and one of the sites is funded by the CCP. And let's not forget the VP has no declassification powers while the President does, even if the limits of that power's invocation are a bit hazy.
You’re missing the point of Biden so condescendingly declaring, “how that could possibly happen — how anyone could be that irresponsible”
That’s the point?? You’re butt-hurt about Biden being condescending? How petty are you? Of all the things going on in these cases, Biden’s self-righteousness seems pretty inconsequential.
Now to throw some EV-style whataboutism at you. Do you know how self-righteous Trump was about Hillary’s classified document problems? He made it a campaign promise!
"he immediately self reported "
So his flunkies say. Maybe so, maybe not. You do not know either way.
As thin as "when the lawyers Biden hired to pack and move his personal papers out of a shared office space brought to his attention..." ever was, that half a fig leaf only worked for the first "discovery."
If Biden had a box of classified docs sitting in his garage for years next to his shiny classic sports car and that fact had to be "called to his attention" -- well, either the content in the docs wasn't particularly secret despite the markings, per my above post, or the man shouldn't be in a position to decide anything particularly important for the rest of us.
Bob and Wuz have a point that we don't yet know what happened, which is why there's an ongoing investigation (with which Biden is cooperating so far as we know). But here's what I think is probably likely:
These documents are six years old, and whomever put them there probably forgot about them. I have boxes in my attic and garage that have been there for years that I don't remember what's in them. At this point, they're just boxes that have been sitting in my garage. For that matter, there are boxes from last time I moved that I still can't find. And I doubt, six years after the fact, that Biden remembered them either.
None of which is an excuse for mishandling them in the first place, but it is a likely scenario for why they've been in his garage for six years.
But here's the thing: If Biden had them for an improper purpose, it would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to just quietly shred them and nobody would have been the wiser. But that's not what he did. He self-reported. Which is why I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least unless more damaging information comes forward.
Well, actually all we know is that he presented a handful of documents that my money says will ultimately be pronounced innocuous -- and probably are.
Whether that was a performative throwing out of a sacrificial handful of low-key docs to try to ward off a search and seizure ala last year and thus divert attention from a much deeper underlying problem, hopefully we'll know someday. But we certainly don't right now.
"handful of low-key docs to try to ward off a search and seizure"
Maybe we should check Jill's lingerie drawer like they did Mrs. Trump's?
No need to stoop to their level -- just the office/storage spaces would be fine (though they might want to check living areas too since Joe just seems to let 'em sit where they fall). But that's the only way we'll get even close to being able to compare the two situations.
I recall saying early on last year, when people were getting the vapors over Trump having some docs in banker's boxes packed up from the WH, that given the sheer volume of paper at issue that people in these positions touch/read/move around, it wouldn't surprise me at all if that sort of thing happened routinely and the only way to really know for any given person is to conduct the exact sort of raid they did on Trump.
The usual suspects snorted and jeered -- posturing as though some set of Washington denizens-on-high actually have perfect, exhaustive inventories of this stuff and thus knew for a fact that EVERYONE BUT TRUMP had willingly turned everything in. But now here we are.
The FBI knew Trump still had tons of classified docs.
If they find out that Biden also does, and they ask for them to be returned and he refuses, and they subpoena them and he refuses, and they get a court order and he lies to the court, then sure, they should raid him too to get them back.
Ah, speaking of the usual suspects. Now apparently it's time to try to rewrite history because we're getting uncomfortably close to what actually happened.
What actually happened (according to the FBI's sworn testimony, anyway) was that the FBI didn't even have any reason to think anything was amiss until Trump sent some boxes of documents back to NARA -- which, let's recall, was in response to their semi-petulant fishing expedition (triggered by, no joke, an archivist seeing Trump carrying a banker's box on TV -- everyone knows that the only thing you put in banker's boxes are presidential records, silly rabbit!).
NARA then turned over some docs with classification markings from those boxes to DOJ, which then began an investigation into whether there might be more. Indeed, the search warrant itself didn't even say the FBI knew that there were more -- just that after their extensive investigation, they had probable cause to believe there were.
So the apples-to-apples comparison to where we are today is the point that NARA turned over the first batch of docs to DOJ. Then, DOJ decided to open a scorched-earth investigation to see what else they could find. Now, DOJ is putting on its best impersonation of the three wise monkeys>.
What are you on? That contradicts what I said in zero ways.
They opened an investigation. So far so apples to apples. Let's see what happens next.
I see my last link didn't go through -- the WSJ wrote yesterday about how DOJ is deliberately going hands-off and letting Biden's personal attorneys (presumably not having security clearances!) continue to search and self-report.
As I said and as nothing you have said contradicts, we will not and cannot be in even a potential position of equal knowledge as to what documents Biden actually has/had until a search of equal invasiveness is done by someone who actually has a vested interest in finding everything. "Wait and see" ain't gonna change that calculus.
DOJ is deliberately going hands-off and letting Biden’s personal attorneys (presumably not having security clearances!) continue to search and self-report.
Yeah, just like they did with Trump for a year and a half. I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make.
Nope. Again referring to the sworn affidavit, the FBI reviewed the Trump-delivered docs in mid-May 2022 and stormed Mar-a-Lago less than 3 months later. The whole thing was based on no more than a "if there's smoke, there's fire" theory re classified docs intermingled with presidential records -- there was nothing more to "investigate" either then or now.
Sworn affidavit? That didn’t happen for over a year after the archives first asked Trump for the documents. If Biden’s case goes anything like Trump’s, we’ve got months of “pretty please” and obstructed subpoenas before we get to a sworn I mean perjured affidavit.
What seems a (the most?) common invocation here is: Bob the Baptist cheats on his wife. Later Mike the Methodist does the same.
Bill the Baptist then says 'Mike's philandering shows what terrible people Methodists are'. then Melvin the Methodist says 'what about Bob?'.
At that point the Baptists all think shouting 'Whattaboutism!!!' is an argument winner that convinces all the Catholics that Methodists are indeed uniquely bad.
This is just a special case of people trying to invalidate opposing positions by labeling them as rhetorical fallacy or another. Generally speaking, I don't find those arguments to be as convincing as just addressing the merits directly.
Moreover, I think that the broad middle of society doesn't view governance as a Team A vs. Team B game; they care about taxes and potholes and what have you, and who has the most effective plans to make things work. Whether some politician from one team or another gets caught doing something sleazy seems pretty irrelevant - politicians across the spectrum do sleazy things, and catching Bob or Mike with his pants down doesn't fix potholes, and the opposing team spending a lot of time pointing fingers makes me think they should be out fixing potholes instead.
'Mike’s philandering shows what terrible people Methodists are' is a fallacy utterly separate from the whattaboutism though.
Whattaboutitsm is deployed to argue Mike's philandering doesn't matter *even in the limited scope of Mike himself*.
The my side/your side issue seems a red hearing to me; people use whattaboutism for all sorts of reasons, from partisan to nationalist to defending one's friends.
Bingo. The popular use of that retort is almost always used as an attempt to shut down the exposing of a dishonest "My side good, their side bad" narrative.
Degrees matter!
Except when you hold one side to a different standard than the other, you are weaponizing standards.
As Justice Scalia once said in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, 505 U.S. 377 (1992):
St. Paul has no such authority to license one side of a debate to fight freestyle, while requiring the other to follow Marquis of Queensberry rules.
Your statement about sides is a collective statement - even single examples of equivalent unenforced wrongdoing won't get you there; you would need to establish a pattern. Not as commonly established a scenario as might first appear.
Do you think it's a coincidence that the two culprits here -- the City of St. Paul, rebuked by Justice Scalia for its double-standards, and Krychek_2, who is strenuously arguing in defense of double-standards -- espouse the same ideology? (hint: The ideology in question is not conservatism.)
"I think the question of whether Judge X violated the standard is far more pressing "
A good part of EV's point is: is the standard even a valid standard? If the "standard" isn't valid what difference does it make whether judge X technically violated the standard or not?
I think one point is that if standards are ill-defined, which they almost always are, then we tend to accuse the other guys of violating them and letting our own off.
So the "What about" argument is not "You're a hypocrite" but rather "What do you think the standard is?"
That's a hard question to answer - sometimes impossible - since issues like magnitude and frequency of offense come into the picture.
Your judges became Senators in the last paragraph.
Yes, I was trying to shift to a different example, to show that the principles apply in different contexts (from untitled people at the outset, to judges in the next example, and to senators in the third).
The disheartening part is that the attitude that you describe results in the inability to improve the tone of our politics and the behavior of the politicians.
A Republican who is serially dishonest or committing misconduct will generally only be criticized by Democratic partisans, some of whom may have weakened their credibility by making exaggerated claims. Either way, the Republican doesn’t care about that. It’s expected behavior and it may even help his/her standing with his supporters.
Take that paragraph and flip the words Republican and Democrat and it’s also true.
The only hope for fixing this crap is if the partisans start demanding better from their side. But they won’t. People seem to enjoy acting like monkeys at the zoo flinging shit at each other.
Not true. Santos is a bit player. Senator High Cheek Bones is not. And the list goes on and on.
"The only hope for fixing this crap is if the partisans start demanding better from their side. "
It would surely be refreshing for one party or the other to decide to brand itself as the party with high standards, and actually walk the walk. Hopefully, that would lead to electoral success, and we could have a race to the top instead of a race to the bottom.
High standards is way too general; we don't even agree what appropriate standards are. Or what factual standards to use...
Even ignoring the ubiquity of hypocricy (which is itself not so easily rooted out in this era of voters' negative party affiliation), high standards are not that easy in practice.
"we don’t even agree what appropriate standards are. Or what factual standards to use…"
There in lies the ultimate core of the problem. A bare minimum majority supporting standard X isn't enough for something like this.
It would be helpful if such were seen to matter. Why hold a standard that hurts you if your opposition flouts the same standard to no harm?
“The only hope for fixing this crap is if the partisans start demanding better from their side. ”
In other words, the only hope lies in something fundamentally altering its very nature...which is not going to happen.
There's too much power and wealth involved for principles to get in the way.
Being a powerful Federal means you and your family will gain tens of millions of dollars. At least.
I agree that all politicians need to be held to the same standards. It is also ok to point out the differences in situations. I think degree, chronicity, and current response to any given violation should be considered while investigations proceed.
Or we could focus on policy and whether the public is being served.
Bevis,
I always recall the comment of my political "mentor" Mayor Richard J Daley when he was asked whether the late elections returns from downstate was due to Republican cheating.
He relied with nary a smile on his face,
"Oh no, they are just as honest as we are in Cook County."
Off Topic, but in case anyone cares about the City of Parma's brief
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22-293/251523/20230106102432958_22-293%20Brief%20in%20Opposition%20FINAL.pdf
Whataboutism is not a fallacy when arguing against someone who is promoting their own candidate against yours. “Your candidate doesn’t change his underwear either, so it won’t be any better if we elect my candidate rather than yours!” is a sound response to “Your candidate doesn’t change his underwear!” when the two candidates are running against each other.
In science, it's bad form to address the arguer rather than argument.
In politics, it's a core principle that the politician is up to no good. This is a major principle looking at mass tragedy across all human history, and is the guiding principle for constitutional design.
The best case is their efforts are a "good thing" for the purpose of getting elected, so they can be a kleptocrat.
In Decision Theory, if one presumes nefarious reasons behind the scenes 100% of the time, one will be correct 99% of the time, like presuming a 7 foot tall person, knowing nothing else, is male.
Fundamental Theorem of Government: Corruption is not an unfortunate side effect of the wielding of power. It is the design intent from first principles.
Precisely: Protests of "whataboutism" arise almost exclusively in a political context, where we are making comparative judgements. We don't want to know if Bob is dishonest, it goes almost without saying that he is, he's a politician.
We want to know if Bob is MORE dishonest than Jerry, his opponent.
So it is ever so convenient for Jerry's backers to accuse Bob of being dishonest, and then shout "Whataboutism!" if Bob's backers bring up Jerry's crimes.
Voting is not a binary choice.
But it's always a choice between alternatives.
Which includes not voting because neither candidate is good, or voting third party.
Which together render your comparative inquiry not really relevant. Even assuming you could reduce candidate merit to a number on a good/bad continuum, which is not actually how it works.
The number of times you've said that people shouldn't vote for President because Trump was (also) a bad man could be counted on the fingers of a quadruple amputee.
Harm mitigation is a threshold question, not a comparative question.
Are you mentioning third parties in order to score some debating point, or are there actual third parties which appeal to you in preference to the duopoly we have now?
First, I don't see why my specific experience matters in the logical argument I'm making in reaction to Brett's logical argument.
Second, for the 10+ years I lived in DC I only voted third party for President, albeit for instrumentalist reasons.
The perrenial conflict: “Two wrongs don’t make a right” vs “hypocrisy.”
It does not only apply to vague standards. whataboutism is often a form of tit-for-tat reprisal or revenge. Hey you did it, so now I get to do it too! You gored my ox, so I get to gore yours!
Philosophers have tried to end this debate for thousands of years. We all know its wrong but do it anyway. Good luck!
I thought the expression is, "It depends on whose ox is being gored." I do not equate that with vengeance: tit for tat, eye-for-an-eye.
Democrarts, say, were eager to criticize Trump for hoarding classified docs but shrugged when they learned Biden did the same thing. (That works the other way around, too, of course.) That's because their reactions aren't principled; it depends on whose ox is being gored.
So how should the underlying cause of "whataboutism", the apparent unequal application of the law or norms, be addressed?
Whattaboutism doesn't establish that.
You address unequal application of norms (i.e., double standards) by calling it out (and ignoring the screams of "Whataboutism!!!" from those who're doing it).
You address unequal application of the law by suing. (Until, of course, those who're into unequal application of norms / law fully take over the judiciary.)
It's completely relevant when someone is saying "OtherGuy did X, that's completely wrong!" to say "You didn't think X was bad when YourGuy did it. Are you sure you think X is wrong, or is it just that you hate OtherGuy?" Maybe there's a reason for the difference, but it's on you to be able to articulate why. Otherwise I'm just going to conclude you're a hypocrite.
Hypocrisy of the messenger is a different subject; it is not relevant to the fact of OtherGuy doing X.
I think Eugene's point is that it might be the YourGuy defender thought OtherGuy (or AnyGuy) doing X wasn't wrong in the first place. If so, then the "whataboutism" argument is about the propriety of doing X rather than hypocrisy.
KenveeB's argument doesn't get at the thesis of the hypothetical person he's replying to, but only their motives.
There is no discussion of an ambiguous standard, as in the OP.
I took KenveeB's "Are you sure you think X is wrong" to imply there is an ambiguous standard.
That's not what that implies to me - it's going after the bias of the speaker; no interrogation of anything objective ever makes it to the field of debate.
And so "whataboutism" continues to run rampant through this thread.
But did you read the comment thread under the last post? It was really bad too!
What is the fallacy of descoping your analysis so far that everything is equivalent, and thus nothing is useful?
-All lies are bad, thus all politicians who lie are equally bad.
-All failure to secure secret documents is bad, thus all such failures are equally bad.
-All bad things are bad, thus no one is free from sin and everyone must be condemned unless you're a hypocrite.
Do you think a politician lying about a "Winter of death" for some Americans is a "good lie" or a "bad lie"?
Do you think a politician lying about getting $50,000/mo in rent from a son with ties to foreign governments is a "good lie" or a "bad lie"?
I think you believe so many things that are untrue, I can't trust you with identifying lies.
I can tell you that your 50K/month thing was roundly debunked yesterday by Noscitur and DMN. Not that you care.
OK then, back to mute with ya!
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/12/16/remarks-by-president-biden-after-meeting-with-members-of-the-covid-19-response-team/
Of course what I stated was absolute fact, which you ignored and flounced. AGAIN.
DEBOOONKED! lmao
Flounce!
Predictions about the future aren't really lies unless they're predictions about your own actions, or actions you influence. If you say, "It's going to be a cold winter" and they're mowing the grass in Vermont in December, you're merely "wrong", unless you somehow arranged for that to be the case.
Obama's prediction that people would be able to keep their policies and doctors qualified as a lie because he was actually arranging to make that impossible as he said it.
I take it you're talking about this thread?
The one where Noscitur didn't weigh in at all, and Too-Clever (d/b/a David M. Nieporent) limited his contributions to a flurry of "seems like" and "that's not clear from the document"?
THAT sort of "roundly debunking"?
This from the people that saw pre-existing contractual rates at normal levels for the location at Trump properties as some sort of gotcha but this is suddenly not clear.
Let's say the underlying question is quite contested: Say, for instance, that Judge Walter is faulted because the judge's spouse is involved in controversial politics, or because the judge was hobnobbing with politicians, or because the judge spoke to an ideological group. That's not against any clear defined rule: The Code of Conduct for federal judges, for instance, forbidns [sic] "political activity" by judges, but doesn't define the term (other than prohibiting some specific kinds of such activity), and has an exception for various "law-related pursuits and civic, charitable, educational, religious, social, financial, fiduciary, and governmental activities," so long as they do not "detract from the dignity of the judge's office, interfere with the performance of the judge's official duties, reflect adversely on the judge's impartiality, lead to frequent disqualification, or violate [certain particular] limitations."
Judges are called upon to recuse themselves "...in a proceeding in which the judge’s impartiality might reasonably be questioned..." I also assume that judges can also be disqualified by higher courts if they refuse to recuse themselves when their impartiality is reasonably questioned.
Prof. Volokh expands the idea he is expressing beyond judges, but I read his main thesis to be about judges and whether their actions comport with standards of judicial ethics. As vague as some of the standards in the Code of Conduct can be for federal judges, it calls upon each judge individually to consider whether either of the parties to a case and the larger public might question their impartiality. To me, judges should err on the side of recusal in order to maintain both the actual integrity of the courts and the perceived integrity of the courts. To do otherwise, and to engage in "what about" arguments, even when justified as Prof. Volokh believes, is to invite judges to move the needle of what would be a reasonable question of their impartiality more and more in their favor.
If we don't want judges to be "politicians in robes," then we should actually hold them to that standard if they won't do it themselves. If the standards are vague and make what about arguments seem reasonable, then we should clarify the standards until they can be applied consistently.
I should also note that it isn't just the judges themselves that can move the standards of impartiality to be more loose. The politicians that pick and vote to confirm the judges have a great deal of incentive to do that as well, if they get judges appointed that adhere closely to their partisan and ideological goals rather than remain truly impartial.
YES!
There's a broader point here that Volokh handled well in his work on slippery slopes. Informal fallacies (like whataboutism, slippery slope, and ad hominem) are not as firm as formal fallacies, which are fallacies that violate rules of logic. Informal fallacies are acts that undermine critical discussion, which is sensitive to context in a way that propositional logic and the like are not.
The charge of “whataboutism” is often applied to what, in root cause analysis, is referred to as “extent of condition.” Trump kept classified documents. So did Biden. If you’re a partisan hack, you interpret “So did Biden.” as whataboutism. If you’re concerned about the seemingly porous barriers preventing ostensibly classified information from finding its way to unsecured locations, “So did Biden” speaks to the extent of condition.
Trump kept classified documents. So did Biden.
This is a problem, yes. If documents are made classified, then they should always be kept in secure locations and handled with national security in mind.
If that was the only thing going on, then it would be a valid point. But the real problem was always that Trump spent so much time resisting efforts to get those documents back, to the point that it may have crossed the line into criminal obstruction.
Seems like only partisan hacks would ignore that difference.
*Making too many things classified is often labeled as a problem, but I think it can actually be a strategy. An opposing nation figures out that there is some classified information known by some government officials or contractors or that it is located at a particular place. They then spend intelligence resources trying to figure out what the information is that is classified, when some of it is already available through other means.
I love how you people just move the goalposts as if the rest of us can’t remember the recent past.
Biden had classified documents for years and years and you uncritically accept their claim that no one knew about them for years and years and were just stumbled upon by their $600/hour lawyers they had paid to move their furniture. Even when that’s laughable on it’s face and has already been shown to be lie more documents found in Hunter’s garage and in Hunter’s house.
What were they doing with those documents for all these years?
Your minds are so malleable it’s stunning.
I love how you people just move the goalposts as if the rest of us can’t remember the recent past.
No, the scandal associated with the documents at Mar-a-Lago was always more about the efforts by Trump and his people to resist the National Archives from getting back documents that were never supposed to leave the White House, classified or not, then how they resisted further efforts once it was certain that some of those documents were marked as being classified, how his lawyers signed off on a statement that they had turned over everything classified to the best of their knowledge only for the search to turn up over a hundred more pages.
Anything at all that you could have read about the Trump documents situation prior to classified documents being discovered at one of Biden's residences would have told you all of that. If anything, it is you that is moving the goal posts to try and make this false equivalence work.
" But the real problem was always."
That was not the real problem. Rather it is a second serious problem.
The failure to secure secret and top secret documents is serious in its own right
If one is undertaking a review of security procedures for classified information, then that's fine. But that's not the context in which "So did Biden" is being raised.
It's very commonly being raised in the context of Biden and so many others saying things like, “how that could possibly happen — how anyone could be that irresponsible” with regard to Trump.
The fact that one set of acts may be worse than another does not mean that either is good or excusable. Otherwise, every murderer could argue, "Yes, but I'm no Charles Manson."
For an example of someone willing to condemn his own, even if claiming someone else is worse:
Except if you've noticed, most around here are arguing *against* "It’s nothing like Trump’s deliberate refusal to return classified records demanded by the National Archives".
That's the whole whattaboutism thing.
"This thing is not equivalent but also bad" an easy argument to make - I make it all the time, including in the case of Biden and these files.
Except he's not. Trump's "refusal" was more equivalent to Obama's, not Biden's and he ignored that both ex presidents negotiated what needed to be returned and what could remain. Biden's handling might be closer to Petreaus or a number of other former staffers but it's in another classification than former Presidents due to that declassification wrinkle for the CiC.
Obama's? Obama didn't refuse anything. I don't think he even had any documents at any point.
The extended discussion of lying is appropriate at a movement conservative blog that clings ridiculously to unconvincing libertarian drag.
Carry on, disingenuous clingers.
Should we await the author's observations about chronic, misleading, disingenuous cherry-picking in the service of partisanship (and low-grade partisanship -- flattering bigotry, ignorance, and backwardness -- at that).
Continue nipping at the ankles and heels of your betters, clingers. It seems to keep you occupied as you await replacement.
You sound Bitter, Klinger.
I mean "Jerry"
Frank "Not bitter, got hemorrhoids"
Bitter? I embrace modern America. I love the direction, progress, and consequences of the culture war. I enjoy knowing my side has won the battle for modern America and is positioned to maintain a trajectory that favors my preferences (reason, science, inclusiveness, modernity, education, transparency, reduction of unearned privilege, successful and educated communities) and rejects the things I dislike (superstition, dogma, bigotry, backwardness, ignorance, unearned privilege, desolate backwaters).
I also am delighted that complaining impotently and bitterly about all of this damned progress is most of what conservatives have left in modern America, as they are defeated at the marketplace of ideas and painted into increasingly limited, desolate corners of America. .
Desolate corners??? like Atlanta??? Almost sounds like you're calling the (Late) John Lewis's District a "Shithole" (Where else to put Shit but in a hole?) Senescent J seemed pretty happy to be there the other day, of course at his age, he's happy to be anywhere.
Frank
There haven't been enough conservatives in Atlanta to elect a mayor in four -- or is it six -- decades?
Atlanta is a relatively well educated, economically strong, modern, inclusive city. Not enough clingers in Atlanta to conduct a solid segregated prom anymore.
Parts of Georgia are backward, bigoted, can't-keep-up backwaters. Atlanta (like northern Virginia) is an example of how a crappy, conservative southern community can improve.
Have you been there since you were umm,
"Indisposed"??
Last White Mayor was "Replaced" in 1974 by Maynard Jackson, (Fun Fact, Mayor Jackson was, umm, a little on the "Rotund" side, about the same time Atlanta replaced the old style metal garbage cans with big Square plastic ones on wheels, which were immediately called,
"Maynards"
as in "Frank!!! have you rolled the Maynard out to the curb?? Garbage pickup is tomorrow"
about his biggest accomplishment,
Frank
Kirkland, alas, the Northern Virginia example shows it took close to 70 years of improvement to get that community into precarious balance sufficient to give improved norms just a bit of an edge. All too often, generational replacement does seem to be the operative mechanism. Whatever their politics, Baby Boomers now teeter on the edge of replacement.
A surprisingly muted and unassertive generation of Millennials looks to be in place to take over. I hope to live long enough to see the awakening of the Millennials, marked as I expect by vigorous assertions of their own political agenda. At this point, it would be a great relief to see the nation presented with a brand new menu of political choices.
"Your betters" means people who have not had an original thought in decades, and recycle the same half-dozen tiresome talking points?
I do not contend this stale-thinking right-wing blog (or conservatism in general) recycles a half-dozen tired, cranky, doomed talking points.
It's closer to a dozen.
and you're one of them.
"Tired, Cranky, Doomed" although the only points are on your head, seriously, if your Parole Officer takes away your B, I, T, E, R, C, L, N, G, S keys away you'd lose most of your vocabulary,
Frank "Rested, Cheerful, and not "Doomed" except in the sense that everyone's time runs out eventually
There is a spectrum:
* stuff we all think is wrong but overlook if forcing our guy to resign might flip New York District 3 to the enemy, shading into
* penumbral crimes, like low level traffic offenses, where selective prosecution is more the rule than the exception, shading into
* gray areas, like where and how often does Cuomo get to touch women before it turns from friendly to creepy?
Cuomo even breathes creepily, like Senescent J with the asthmatic whispers.
gray areas, like where and how often does Cuomo get to touch women before it turns from friendly to creepy?
Or, how many old people does he get to kill before it's at least as bad as him playing a little unwanted grab-ass?
I think it's more the "Glasshouses" Anal-ology,
Such as a Senator who claims Injun Heritage when she's at best 1/1024th Native Amurican/Senator who claimed to serve in Vietnam when he was a Stateside Reservist,
shouldn't comment on a member of the "Other Body" claiming to be" Jew-ish"
to be honest, haven't heard much from Poke-a-Hontas or Danang Dick since the whole Santos thing broke,
or Ted Kennedy,
Frank
Let us say, hypothetically, that we have two major political parties which are full of crooks and apologists for crooks. The spokespeople for each party, though, claim that the other party’s crooks are guilty not only of misbehavior, but of shocking, unprecedented behavior, and that this is a reason to vote for the spokesperson's party.
In these cases, it is useful to point out that both parties are full of crooks.
Maybe choose a third party which hasn’t yet had the chance to accumulate so much corruption?
"Hypothetically"????
What if people could talk about policy instead of spending all their time pointing fingers?
They’d have to care about something besides vengeance and destruction for that to happen.
Because they know that policymaking involves painful choices which will lose them votes whichever way they go. Or I should say making the causes of the pain obvious and connected to specific policy decisions by elected officials. Can't have that.
So they go the path of least resistance, calling each other names – perfectly applicable names, in many cases.
They figure out that the voters will put up with it, because the alternative is to support [other party].
When is the last time you talked about policy, Ben?
This is an Internet Political Message Board. You’re not here to talk policy, you’re here to shit on Democrats.
This is a place of jousting with very occasional ideological discussions. Policy is a distant third.
You want to talk policy, work for a government agency.
"You want to talk policy, work for a government agency."
Well, we plebes have to talk policy so we can decide what policies we prefer, so we can have the government employees *who work for us* what policies to follow..
That was a dig on his hostility to government workers.
Do you really think this is the forum for policy discussions? Because it seems more ideological. Sometimes legal.
Not that I know where you could go for policy discussions, but this is not that place.
Be the change. If not you, who? If not now, when?
Ah, but I'm not here for policy discussions. I get enough of those at work 😛
It must be really exhausting dividing up people so you can favor the special people and disfavor the rest of the public.
I thought you were going to stop bullying?
I see. It’s my fault that you and the other Dems have no policy answers for anything and can only point fingers and weave stories about the other side.
Yeah, that's it Ben. It's everyone else's fault and you're not toxic at all.
Always giving Democratic policies a good examination, that's you!
It’s one of his new talking points he’s trying out on all the threads for the past few days. As if he’d know a policy discussion if it bit him in the nuts. 🙂
But still, it’s better than his old talking points. Maybe he’ll succeed in convincing himself that he cares about policy and go seek out more rewarding reading material.
Exactly what I've said less eloquently before!
Many legal and constitutional issues, particularly federal criminal-type issues when the government goes after dissidents and political opponents, don't have any sort of clear legal answer or meaning at all. The only thing you can do is look at "norms." I.e., how is it treated when the powerful, politically connected, and aligned with the Regime do it?
This is pure Critical Legal Theory.
Not something to which I subscribe, but you'll find plenty on the left who agree with you.
Lol, no.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594035229/reasonmagazinea-20/
The law as arbitrary and applied as to be lightly for the powerful/connected and binding to all others is literally Critical Theory.
Saying 'but this libertarian likes it too' doesn't make it not Critical Theory.
It literally is not "Critical Theory," far from it. There is a superficially similar theme though.
Hint: The critique is not of "the law" itself, nor iterations of law in Western thought generally.
Rather, the critique is of modern criminal statutes found in the United States Code, the attendant Acts of Congress and the actions of the bureaucratic executive branch.
Personally, I am glad that each Senator and the Senate President has equal access to classified information.
So, "whatabout Senator X" means the same as "whatabout Senate President Y."
When people are asked to apply vague standards, they routinely interpret them more harshly against their adversaries than against their friends. The best way of checking that tendency is to think about how the standard applies to both.
On the one hand, some people are in the habit of recognizing when they apply a standard, and practice routinely, each time, the test, "of checking that tendency . . . to think about how the standard applies to both." When such people object to whataboutism, that objection should be taken seriously. Experience shows such people do not practice whataboutism much themselves. Some seem not to practice whataboutism at all. Their habit of checking prevents it.
On the other hand, experience shows people who resort often to whataboutism are almost invariably people who do not, "think about how the standard applies to both." Such people will not be helped toward clarity or self-awareness by encouraging belief that what they do is a valid means to inform decision making about standards. On the contrary, among habitual practitioners of whataboutism, to encourage belief that their habit amounts to critical thinking will do little but multiply their errors.