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Hamline University Lecturer "Is Fired Over a Medieval Painting of the Prophet Muhammad"

Michigan art history Prof. Christiane Gruber reported on this four days ago in New Lines Magazine; as readers of the blog might gather, I think that Hamline's behavior, as she describes it (and as is described in Prof. Berkson's essay, see below) is improper; see here for my thoughts on a related controversy at the University of Minnesota in 2015. But in this post I'd just like to lay out the facts as I understand them.
[1.] First, from Prof. Gruber's article:
On Nov. 18, Hamline University's student newspaper, The Oracle, published an article [link -EV] notifying its community members of two recent incidents on its campus in Saint Paul, Minnesota, one indubitably homophobic and the other supposedly Islamophobic. Both occurrences were placed under the same rubric as "incidents of hate and discrimination." …
The "Islamophobic incident" catalyzed plenty of administrative commentary and media coverage at the university. Among others, it formed the subject of a second Oracle article [link -EV], which noted that a faculty member had included in their global survey of art history a session on Islamic art, which offered an optional visual analysis and discussion of a famous medieval Islamic painting of the Prophet Muhammad. A student complained about the image's inclusion in the course and led efforts to press administrators for a response. After that, the university's associate vice president of inclusive excellence (AVPIE) declared the classroom exercise "undeniably inconsiderate, disrespectful and Islamophobic."
Neither before nor after these declarations was the faculty member given a public platform or forum to explain the classroom lecture and activity. To fill in the gap, on Dec. 6, an essay written by a Hamline professor of religion who teaches Islam explaining the incident along with the historical context and aesthetic value of Islamic images of Muhammad was published on The Oracle's website. The essay was taken down two days later. One day after that, Hamline's president and AVPIE sent a message to all employees stating that "respect for the observant Muslim students in that classroom should have superseded academic freedom." The essay's censorship and the subsequent email by two top university administrators raise serious concerns about freedom of speech and academic freedom at the university.
The instructor was released from their spring term teaching at Hamline, and its AVPIE went on the record as stating: "It was decided it was best that this faculty member was no longer part of the Hamline community." In other words, an instructor who showed an Islamic painting during a visual analysis — a basic exercise for art history training — was publicly impugned for hate speech and dismissed thereafter, without access to due process.
These incidents, statements and actions at Hamline will be for others to investigate further. As a scholar specializing in Islamic representations of Muhammad, however, it is my duty to share accurate information about the painting at the heart of the controversy. I will provide a visual analysis and historical explanation of the image in question, in essence reconstituting the Hamline instructor's classroom activity. I will then explore these types of depictions over the course of six centuries, with the aim to answer one basic question: Is the Islamic painting at the heart of the Hamline controversy truly Islamophobic? …
Prof. Gruber has also posted a petition addressed to the Hamline Board of Trustees; PEN America has condemned Hamline's actions (though understandably noting that this was conditional on Prof. Gruber's account being accurate), and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education is investigating.
[2.] I have gotten a copy of the essay that The Oracle posted and then removed (I will give some more information about the removal in another post); the author is Prof. Mark Berkson, Chair of Hamline's Religion department:
Dear Editor,
A controversy has erupted at Hamline over the showing of an image of the Prophet Muhammad in an online Art History class. It is important that we take this opportunity to look closely at this issue so that we gain a deeper understanding of Islamic views of figural representation over the centuries, the reasons why this issue can have an emotional impact, and how to work through the tensions that can arise between academic inquiry and religious sensibility.
The Incident
I was not present in the classroom where a historical Islamic image of the Prophet Muhammad was shown, so I cannot speak to all of the details of that particular situation. What I do know is that the image in question is a 14th century painting included in a manuscript commissioned by a Sunni Muslim king in Iran and that it forms part of a cycle of illustrations narrating and commemorating Muhammad's prophecy that is considered by art historians to be "a global artistic masterpiece." The professor gave students both written and verbal notifications that the image would be shown. I don't know the nature of the conversations that followed, so I am only reflecting on one key question - Is the showing of an image of the Prophet Muhammad in an academic context necessarily an instance of Islamophobia, as has been claimed by some members of the administration?
Islamophobia is a serious and ongoing threat in this nation, and it has numerous ugly manifestations, including the vandalism of mosques, the harassment of and violent attacks on Muslims, and hate speech across social media and, at times, at the highest levels of political power. One reason that I have given numerous public lectures about Islam in churches, synagogues, and meeting rooms around the country is to combat ignorance, stereotyping, and Islamophobia. But I believe that, in the context of an art history classroom, showing an Islamic representation of the Prophet Muhammad, a painting that was done to honor Muhammad and depict an important historical moment, is not an example of Islamophobia. Labeling it this way is not only inaccurate but also takes our attention off of real examples of bigotry and hate. What happened in this classroom might be an example of miscommunication, a misunderstanding that resulted in significant grief for some students and the faculty member. The distress caused to some students is significant and regrettable. We must recognize this and figure out the best way to avoid this in the future.
Since some Hamline administrators labeled the showing of the painting "Islamophobic" (in one case, the phrase "undeniably Islamophobic" was used), my question for those who use that word is – Exactly where does the Islamophobia lie? Islamophobia is often defined as fear, hatred, hostility, or prejudice against Muslims. The intention or motivation behind the act would seem to be essential here. In this case, the professor was motivated only to educate students about the history of Islamic art. The professor tried to ensure that Muslim students who have objections would be able to avoid seeing the images. So, when we look at intention, we can conclude that this was not Islamophobic.
Another possibility is that the very act of displaying an image of Muhammad is itself Islamophobic. But if this were the case, there are a number of very disturbing implications. First, it would mean that anybody who showed these images in a classroom, a book, or on their wall, would be an Islamophobe. Any scholar who wrote a book about Islamic art and included these images for discussion or analysis would be an Islamophobe. Even Muslims (and, as we will see, many Muslims throughout history have created and enjoyed these images) would be Islamophobic if they did this. Second, it would mean that these images could never be seen by, or shown to, anybody. In effect, it would require an erasure of an entire genre of Islamic art.
Should no student be able to see this art? And what would it mean for a liberal arts institution to deem an entire subject of study prohibited?
Finally, it seems that the interpretation of the administrators means that if an act is prohibited to members of a particular religion, then everyone has to incorporate that prohibition into their own lives. Let's quickly consider an analogy. Eating pork is forbidden to observant Muslims and Jews. Clearly, it would be an act of Islamophobia or antisemitism if someone were to intentionally sneak pork into a dish that was going to be eaten by someone for whom it is forbidden. But does this mean that Aramark can no longer serve any dish with pork? Must everyone consider pork forbidden? Most of us would agree that as long as there are plenty of alternatives for Muslims and Jews, then the mere offering of a pork dish is not Islamophobic or antisemitic. In the case of images, does the fact that many (not all) Muslims consider images forbidden mean that all of us have to incorporate this prohibition into our lives? Giving students the opportunity to see the images as part of an education in Islamic art (since using images is an essential part of the pedagogy of art historians) is not Islamophobic as long as Muslim students are not required to see them and steps are taken to ensure that no student sees them unintentionally.
We must recognize that distress can be caused to Muslims (or Jews, or anyone) without the act that did so being Islamophobic, antisemitic, etc. In the food example, if a server mixed up items and accidentally served a pork dish to a Muslim or Jewish student, we would not call that person Islamophobic or antisemitic. It would be a deeply unfortunate situation, and the student would experience distress that must be recognized and addressed. Steps would have to be taken to avoid that in the future. But it would not be an instance of bigotry or hostility.
This incident is about balancing academic freedom and religious commitments, not about Islamophobia. The situation is not helped by making accusations against a faculty member who is simply trying to share and teach the history of Islamic art with students. It is especially disturbing that some administrators who used the word "Islamophobia" never even spoke with the faculty member to get their perspective. When, as in the case here at Hamline, everyone involved has good intentions (intention is a key concept in Islam, and the Prophet Muhammad himself said that people will receive consequences for actions depending on their intentions) and is doing their best to honor principles (religious and academic) that are important to them, we can find our way forward in open conversation and mutual respect. In what follows, I hope to provide some background so that we can understand the larger context and explain more fully why this incident is not an example of Islamophobia.
The Background
First, a majority of the world's Muslims today believe that visually representing the prophet Muhammad is forbidden. Many observant Muslims would never create an image of Muhammad and will strive to avoid seeing one. So professors must not require Muslim students who believe that representation is forbidden to look at these images, and they must give students fair warning if such images are going to appear anywhere in class - in a book, a slide show, a video, etc. It is my understanding that, in the Hamline class, the professor gave students advance notice that the image would be shown (both in the syllabus and verbally), allowed students to turn off the screen if they wished, and did not require them to visually engage with the painting. The intent was to educate, not to offend or show disrespect.
Why might representation be forbidden in some interpretations of Islam (and other religions as well)? It is worth noting that in all forms of Judaism and Islam, images of God are strictly forbidden (and there is a history of iconoclasm in Christianity). For Jews and Muslims, attempts to represent God limit what is infinite and inevitably lead to the kind of idolatry that worships the representation rather than God. In some Islamic spheres, the concern about representation is extended to prophets, particularly the Prophet Muhammad, because he is so central in the lives of Muslims. Muslims believe that Muhammad, like Jewish and Christian prophets before him, was a human being, not a divine being or a being who should be worshipped. He is, however, a uniquely significant person, because he was chosen by God to be the perfect carrier for the final, complete revelation. Muhammad himself, and Muslims ever since, have been aware of the dangers of people worshipping Muhammad, and Muhammad emphasized that God alone is worthy of worship. The danger of idolatry in regard to prophets is one reason why visual representation of them is problematic.
And yet here is another fact - Muslims have created and enjoyed figural representations of Muhammad throughout much of the history of Islam in some parts of the Islamic world. There exist numerous images of Muhammad created by Persian and Turkish artists from the 13th century until today, many of which were miniatures or illustrations in book manuscripts. Some images depict Muhammad with his face obscured with a veil or a halo, but some images show his face. Many artists based their images on detailed descriptions of Muhammad's appearance given in the Hadith and early biographies.
Over the past few centuries, Shia Muslims, notably in Iran, have been far more accepting of visual representation in general than many Sunnis. But from the 13th-16th centuries, Islamic images were also made in Sunni contexts, as is the case with the 14th century painting that was taught in the Hamline classroom. Furthermore, in recent years, there have been Muslim jurists and legal scholars who have issued fatwas - legal opinions - arguing that certain representations of Muhammad are permitted. One of the most respected leaders and legal authorities in Shia Islam, Ayatollah al-Sistani, stated that representations of the Prophet Muhammad are permissible as long as they are respectful. It is clearly forbidden to make any images that are disrespectful or that are designed to elicit worship. Representations that are permitted in these fatwas are those that honor Muhammad or give historical knowledge to Muslims about their prophet.
One of the most recent fatwas regarding figural representation concerns an image of Muhammad present in a section of a frieze in the US Supreme Court building in Washington DC. This frieze depicts great lawgivers of history, including Moses and Solomon. A leading scholar of Islam and former Chair of the Fiqh (Law) Council of North America, Taha Jaber al- Alwani, issued a fatwa discussing whether or not the image of Muhammad is forbidden. After surveying the debates over representation and imagery in Islam (these usually depend on interpretations of passages in the Hadith), and emphasizing the importance of intention, al- Alwani concludes that, despite reservations, "I have a great deal of gratitude and appreciation for those who insisted on including an image of our Prophet, Muhammad, in that highly regarded site…in order to remind the whole world of the important contributions of the Prophet." He noted that "we must remember that those who carved the frieze and placed it in the Supreme Court are not Muslims…As the Prophet himself respected freedom of conscience in his own dealings, so should we."
One of the leading scholars of Islamic Art is Christiane Gruber at the University of Michigan. She has written scholarly articles and a book on Islamic paintings of the Prophet as well as widely read Newsweek essays dedicated to her subject. She writes, "Muslims of more moderate or secular Sunni or Shi'i leanings do not consider figural representations of the Prophet necessarily problematic as long as Muhammad is depicted respectfully…Over the past seven centuries, a variety of historical and poetic texts largely produced in Turkish and Persian spheres…include depictions of the Prophet Muhammad. These many images praised and commemorated the Prophet…As a result, the visual evidence clearly undermines the premise that images of Muhammad are strictly banned in Islamic law and practice."
There are Muslims today who possess and value Islamic images of Muhammad. One person who has written about how much he values a figural representation of Muhammad displayed in his home is a leading scholar of Islam, Omid Safi, who teaches at Duke University. Safi writes, "The image is a lovely depiction of a kind, gentle, yet resolute Prophet, holding on to the Qur'an and looking straight at the viewer with deep and penetrating eyes…There are millions of such depictions in Iran and elsewhere, and that for many of us it was not a distraction from God but rather a reminder of God to focus on the Messenger of God." So, the very debates that are happening in academic contexts are also happening within parts of the Muslim community, as they have for centuries.
Concluding Thoughts
Ultimately, Islamic images of the Prophet Muhammad are part of the historical record, and an academic art historian who teaches Islamic art must acknowledge and discuss this in some way. Students would be deprived of an illuminating part of Islamic art history if they were not taught about this material, which, according to Dr. Gruber, "is considered by many individuals - including Muslim believers, artists, curators, scholars, collectors, and philanthropists - a global artistic patrimony that is increasingly at risk today." Furthermore, if an art historian were to conclude that images of Muhammad are forbidden, they would be privileging the interpretation of some Muslims over others. It is not up to academics to make judgments about which forms of a religion are correct and which artworks must be purged from the historical record. We must present a religious tradition and its artistic heritage in all of its richness and diversity. While some Muslims believe that figural representations of the Prophet Muhammad are forbidden, others in the past and present do not. It is thus incumbent on a professor to teach the material and convey the full range of artistic expression, as the Hamline faculty member seems to have done.
This incident reminds us that the study of religion is not only fascinating and thought-provoking but is also essential to understanding and skillfully navigating the challenges of living together in a multifaith society. This includes engaging with diversity within faith traditions and not labeling the teaching of an Islamic artistic masterpiece an incident of "hate and discrimination."
Mark Berkson, Ph.D.
Professor and Chair
Department of Religion
[3.] Here is the initial e-mail about the incident from Hamline Associate Vice President for Inclusive Excellence David Everett:
Several weeks ago, Hamline administration was made aware of an incident that occurred in an online class. Certain actions taken in that class were undeniably inconsiderate, disrespectful and Islamophobic. While the intent behind those actions may not have been to cause harm, it came at the expense of Hamline's Muslim community members. While much work has been done to address the issue in question since it occurred, the act itself was unacceptable.
Hamline administration has met with leadership of the Muslim Student Association (MSA) and devised a plan of action to address Islamophobia and other acts of intolerance on campus. I write to you to outline this plan. In future:
- Bias and hate incidents, including those related to diversity, equity and inclusion, will be coordinated through the Office of Inclusive Excellence.
- A new reporting form for incidents of campus bias is being drawn up. When complete, it will be posted to the Inclusive Excellence, Student Resources and Services and Hamline Public Safety Forms websites. All community members will be encouraged to use this form to report any incidents to ensure that response is coordinated holistically through appropriate offices.
- CLA leadership will continue to hold conversations with MSA members to discuss their experiences in the classroom and on campus, and will meet with other affected groups as circumstances warrant.
- The Office of Inclusive Excellence, as part of Hamline's 'Community Conversation' series, will host an open forum on the subject of Islamophobia. Details will be announced as planning and logistics are confirmed.
I want to make clear: isolated incidents such as we have seen define neither Hamline nor its ethos. They clearly do not meet community standards or expectations for behavior. We will utilize all means at our disposal, up to and including the conduct process, to ensure the emotional health, security and well-being of all members of our community. Thank you for the support, care and partnership.
Yours in community,
David L. Everett, PhD
[4.] And here is the follow-up e-mail from Hamline President Fayneese Miller and VP Everett:
To the Hamline University Community:
Hamline University is composed of people with diverse views, expectations, and interactions. This community generates different lived experiences that must all be acknowledged and respected. We understand and appreciate that tough, but important questions will arise in our community and we need to address them head-on.
Yet, because we are human, no matter how hard we try to educate on tough issues, we will make mistakes. While some are borne of ignorance, that is never an acceptable excuse. We must always try to do better, be better. We must also take responsibility for our actions, especially when others find them offensive.
It is never our intention to deliberately harm others. Yet, this harm is real and, when we harm, we should listen rather than debate the merits of or extent of that harm. We must always strive to do better, to listen more, and to not knowingly offend.
Our Muslim students, staff, and faculty are hurting. The classroom incident is only one of several instances in which their religious beliefs have been challenged. There are other instances that have occurred on our campus where they have been verbally attacked. This is not okay.
Dr. David Everett, who oversees our Office of Inclusive Excellence, and I join today to share our thoughts, hopes, and expectations for our community. We base our thoughts on two key concepts: respect and responsibility. Ideally, each one of us should respect the lived experiences of others, and take appropriate responsibility, as leaders do, when those experiences fall short of expectations.
Hamline is a shared space for all of us. As administrators, it is our responsibility to ensure that this shared space is supportive and welcoming of all. We fully understand that the quality of the lived experience for Muslim students at Hamline has varied from time to time, and it is our job to address those realities, educate the community and do our best to ensure that Hamline reflects its mission and values in its deeds.
As a caring community, there are times when a healthy examination of expression is not only prudent, but necessary. This is particularly the case when we know that our expression has potential to cause harm. When that happens, we must care enough to find other ways to make our voices and viewpoints heard.
Perspectives should be informed, mindful and critical, as befits an education steeped in the tenets of a liberal arts education. We believe in academic freedom, but it should not and cannot be used to excuse away behavior that harms others.
We have learned, over many years, that knowledge can be shared in a multitude of responsible, thoughtful, and respectful ways. Our response to the classroom event does not disregard or minimize the importance of academic freedom. It does state that respect, decency, and appreciation of religious and other differences should supersede when we know that what we teach will cause harm.
Given the complexity of our various histories, it is imperative that we find ways to teach difficult material. In the spirit of academic freedom, we do not suggest that some material be stricken from our classrooms and not shared with students. This does not generate new knowledge. We do suggest that the indefensible can be taught as well as material that offends – but how we teach it, and how we share images and content, matters.
It is not our intent to place blame; rather, it is our intent to note that in the classroom incident—where an image forbidden for Muslims to look upon was projected on a screen and left for many minutes—respect for the observant Muslim students in that classroom should have superseded academic freedom. Many disciplines have embedded within them difficult and controversial theories and material, but as with virtually all subjects, they can be discussed without causing harm. Academic freedom is very important, but it does not have to come at the expense of care and decency toward others.
We can be better at Hamline University. While we appreciate that some will find our comments as an attack on academic freedom, nothing could be further from the truth. We have a duty of care for those who trust us to educate them—our students.
We thank the members of the Muslim Student Association for their patience. We thank all the students of our community for believing in us, for trusting our faculty and staff to share their knowledge and experiences with you and you with us. It is often important, as Robert Frost opined, to "take the road less traveled," the road that is "just as fair," because that often makes "all the difference."
Sincerely,
Fayneese Miller, PhD
PresidentDavid Everett, PhD
Associate Vice President for Inclusive Excellence
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"Phobia" used to mean irrational fear. But in today's left-wing political lexicon, it means "Failure to obsequiously humor the demands of a politically favored minority." And is to be punished wherever the left has the power to do so.
But in the post-modern world, there is no irrational. Every perception of reality must be given the same consideration. Thus those who believe that seeing an image (or even thinking about seeing an image) will lead to their personal annihilation must be accommodated without debate.
A synonym for the right-wing apprehension of the term "religious liberty?"
Right. "Islamophobia" is a word invented by the Muslim Brotherhood to intimidate against any criticism of Islam or Muslims.
The word defines itself as and irrational fear (phobia) of Islam and no other definition should be accepted.
But fear of Islam is completely rational by non-Muslims given its Koranic teachings of hatred toward non-Muslims and it violent history of conquests, slave taking, oppression of women and its clear hostility toward Western Civilization that it militarily tried for centuries to destroy up to its crucial defeat at the Battle of Vienna 1683.
We live under our US Constitution, not under Islamic law (Sharia) and professors of art history should absolutely be allowed to show any image of any religious figure. This is a cowardly & shameful outrage by this university.
“After that, the university's associate vice president of inclusive excellence (AVPIE)…”
We’ll, there’s your problem right there.
Ding ding ding!
:inclusive excellence:
Talk about self-identified BS
Everything about this story is nuts. The idea that a lecturer might give students some kind of trigger warning before showing them a picture of the prophet Muhammad is already crazy, and everything after that is nuttier still.
Nutty is a feature, not a bug. It's a calculating sort of nutty.
If you promulgate sensible rules, you run the risk that people are only following them because they agree with them. And that's fine if you want people to be independent minded and to do sensible things, and don't mind push-back if they think you're being unreasonable.
But it really doesn't cut it if you're looking for reflexive, unthinking obedience, not reasoned agreement. For cultivating unthinking obedience, you really need irrational rules, subject to arbitrary and changing enforcement.
This helps you swiftly detect and dispose of those who won't knuckle under, because they'll expose themselves by not doing the unreasonable.
And the arbitrary and changing enforcement drives people to actively anticipate your whims, in order to avoid falling prey to some unexpected change in policy. It drives people to oppress themselves, sparing you a lot of work.
So, nutty, yes. But deliberately, calculatedly so. Senseless and arbitrary demands are actually a standard technique for people out to cultivate unthinking obedience.
Ask Theo Van Gogh about nutty. Oh wait you can’t. What “phobia” was responsible for his murder?
Martinned: Happy Boxing Day.
What does that have to do with what I said? Did you even read my comment, or did you reach immediately for the one Islam-related thing you know about the Netherlands?
Giving religiously nutty students a way to avoid triggering their phobias is a norm in today's US. It's like telling law students that they never need to encounter speech they disagree with. In that respect, the fired professor was just applying standard practices.
The firing and uproar is certainly nutty, assuming we know the whole story here. Still, people do get emotional when they think their religious figures are being treated disrespectfully.
Only one example, of course.
I don't think giving a warning is nutty. If you were teaching a class on culinary history which included some food samples would it be nutty to warn that some items contain pork?
And how much firing and uproar would've followed a Hamline professor using an image of "Piss Christ" in their lectures?
I'd predict zero, because this firing is all about the power politics of offending only the "right" people, not about any actual principle involved.
And how much firing and uproar would’ve followed a Hamline professor using an image of “Piss Christ” in their lectures?
Based on history, quite a lot. Are you claiming there was no negative reaction?
Who are you saying was fired for using "Piss Christ" in that fashion?
The difference between "no reaction" and firing a prof for using an image of an art object, or alleged art object, in his lectures is considerable.
If students objected to mandatory viewing and evaluation of work that is widely considered insulting to Christianity, they would be publicly shamed in the media for being weak, and the university would have dismissed the complaint out of hand. It's happened multiple times.
"If you were teaching a class on culinary history which included some food samples would it be nutty to warn that some items contain pork?"
As someone who keeps kosher, I can answer: yes, it would be nutty. As the person who keeps the religion, I take it as my responsibility to ascertain that the food I eat adheres to my rules.
BL,
Please clarify. I respect your keeping kosher. And not sampling a a dish containing tref is praiseworthy.
Does that mean that you object to an ad for bacon being shown on TV?
That is at the heart of this stupid "inclusive excellence."
B.L.,
Sure, if they put a shrimp on your plate you should have the brains not to eat it without being told. But suppose it's a dumpling or egg roll. Might have pork, might not. Or some other item where it was not immediately obvious - a bean dish that might have been cooked with pork, say.
Then I assume you'd ask if you had some doubts. How else would you ascertain that the food was kosher? Further, I assume you check labels on packaged goods at the grocery store. So why is providing some information to the Muslim student so odd?
Don,
Watching an ad for bacon is not the same as eating bacon. Eating bacon voluntarily is not the same as being required to eat it.
bernard,
"Watching an ad for bacon is not the same as eating bacon. Eating bacon voluntarily is not the same as being required to eat it."
I got that.
I was wondering whether BL was objecting to seeing the cooking demo OR to eating the product.
I probably did not make myself clear enough.
The way I ascertain in a store is by checking whether there is a kosher supervision, whose job it is to check the ingredients and makes sure it's kosher.
A store, let me remind you, sells food products to people who consume them. The consumer may wish to know what's in it for all kinds of reasons -- religious, allergies, vegansim, etc.
This was not a food product, but a university lecture about art history. An optional one. You should be able to see the difference.
people do get emotional when they think their religious figures are being treated disrespectfully
I know. (See the murder of Theo van Gogh mentioned above.) But it seems to me that part of the mission of (higher) education should be to discourage that, rather than accommodate it
Amen, Martin.
Getting emotional is one thing. Firing a professor for "Islamophobia" because he showed and discussed a famous example of Islamic art is something else entirely (namely, batshit insane leftism).
"The firing and uproar is certainly nutty, assuming we know the whole story here. Still, people do get emotional when they think their religious figures are being treated disrespectfully."
Sure. and immersing objects in piss is a rather secular way of showing disrespect, unrelated to the religion at hand.
But there is nothing disrespectful about this particular display, other than the fact that is violates a religious prohibition that some Muslims have against the depiction of Muhammed.
Do you remember the Anne Frank bikini story? It was outside the classroom, but it was nutty. Everyone knows that the Harvard Lampoon is a parody museum.
For those wanting details of the other incident
https://hamlineoracle.com/10696/news/homophobic-incident-sparks-institutional-conversation/
I like how that — graffiti saying "kill all gays" — is lumped in (not by you, by the underlying story) with showing a picture of Mohammed. One is something that even our looniest right wingers here would agree is homophobic, and yet this incident is classified similarly.
"One is something that even our looniest right wingers here would agree is homophobic"
Just a general note: I might say "hostile to homosexuals", I wouldn't say "homophobic", because I think an irrational fear of homosexuals is probably pretty rare, and that's the only think I'd personally use the term to refer to.
There's a certain tendency, I likely exhibit it myself, to impute elements of one's own belief system to people who reject it. One way this tendency exhibits is to attribute to other people use of terminology which has your own belief system baked into it. And which, for that reason, they'd actually never use except mockingly.
Like saying that somebody would say that women with penises shouldn't be accommodated, when they'd of course deny that there IS such a thing.
Why would you use it to refer to that when it's not what it means?
Knowing Greek and Latin roots, prefixes, and suffixes can often be a great aid to understanding English, but it's not a computer program. Just because a word derives from a particular Greek or Latin term does not mean you can simply do a naive version of Google Translate in which you plug in the separate meanings of the root and suffix to get the meaning of the composite word.
(Shades of the "This Arab guy can't be an antisemite because he's a Semite too." Antisemitism does not mean hatred of Semites; it means hatred of Jews.)
Uh Oh!!, Eugene, you've just offended 1.7 Bullion(HT C. Sagan) Moose-lums (HT B. Sanders) by posing an Image of the Prophet (Peace be upon Him), and it only takes 19 Moose-lums to really screw stuff up
Strong Fat-Twat to follow (not from me, from the Moose-lums)
Frank "why does Moe-hammed always look like he's got a (redacted) up his ass?"
Fewer, since we are talking non Turkish and non Iranian Muslims. My view has long been that Shiite Muslims are almost as bad as Roman Catholics, in regards to their depictions of humans. As a mainline Protestant, at I recent Catholic funeral service, I counted 13 different human depictions (many with multiple humans) in front of us in the sanctuary, and 5 more in the periphery. Imagine attending a traditional Catholic university, like Georgetown, with Catholic iconage all over the place. Is that Protestanphobia?
Hamline's president and AVPIE sent a message to all employees stating that "respect for the observant Muslim students in that classroom should have superseded academic freedom."
Time to hire some new administration.
Or at least take away any public funding and accreditation.
No. Some snowflake's religious fragility is not a valid reason to avoid teaching everyone else.
Right. Such a statement is cringe-worthy & disgusting. Wrt respect, people should realize that Islam holds no respect for any non-Muslim's religious beliefs, or even for their persons. While Muslims demand respect for their extremely intolerant & violent jihad-encouraging religion, their religion clearly tells them to consider the disbeliever are the "worst of creatures" and bound for hell, (Q 98:6). In their required daily prayers they insult you, when you die they are forbidden to pray for you or attend your funeral (by Sharia) even if they had pretended to be your friend, which their Qur'an forbids (4:144, 5:51). But we must respect their religion, their Sharia?
Yet useful idiots in university bureaucracies force professors & student to bow down before Muslim sensitives. Disgusting & shameful.
"Respect for the observant Muslim students in that classroom should have superseded academic freedom". Is it clear that there were any observant Muslims in the classroom, ready to denounce those who offend the reputation of the Prophet? Or only a student who had the notion that it was wrong to display images and got offended on somebody else's behalf? A school district in my area decided it needed to add Muslim holidays to the school holiday list. Questioned by a newspaper, they didn't know if they had any Muslim students. It was all signalling.
Would it also be forbidden to speak about, or in defense of, Charlie Hebdo?
Am alternative possibility, "We don't want to be blown up so we're going to pretend that it's about respect for religion".
I suspect this is actually the motive here. Although their actions have brought a lot more public attention to the incident then if it had been simply ignored.
What are Muslims doing at Hamline University anyway? Ham is haram (forbidden) to Muslims.
Hey-ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
"A Jew, A Moose-Lum, and a Catholic walk into a Bar, the Bartender, says, "Get da Fuck Outtahear!!!"
I wonder if the teacher would have a religious discrimination claim, since the teacher was being required to practice Islam.
Islamophobia did not exist until after 9/11.
You watch in a decade or two the Moslems will have done the Jew-do flip on us and turn themselves into perpetual untouchable victims after centuries of assault and attacks on others.
What is a Jew-do flip?
"Islamophobia" doesn't really exist, esp after 9/11 since that made clear that the fear of Islam is clearly rational and not a phobia.
Does this account identify the professor, or is this another partisan circumstance in which the Volokh Conspiracy ignores its ostensible preference against anonymity/pseudonymity?
‘member the good ol’ days, when people defended art like a cross upside down in urine (partially paid for by government) whose deliberate purpose was to piss off Christians?
The work was defended as “…and they need to be deliberately exposed to stuff like this. And that’s a good thing!”
Ok, that last sentence wasn’t in use back then, but you get the picture.
Congress reduced the NEA’s budget by $60k, the amount for this and a couple of other outrages. In this context, that’s National Endowment for the Arts, not National Education Association. Ironic.
Outrage over that, too. How dare democracy, I mean, Congress interfere in unrestricted pure art for achieving impact on society! The People deserve to have this shoved in their faces. It improves.
Anyway, get back to arguing details, instead of just observing sad, sad flip flopping for power grabs.
The work was defended as “…and they need to be deliberately exposed to stuff like this.
Actually, nobody was forced to be exposed to it at all. Going to the relevant exhibits was purely voluntary, and attendees by and large knew they were going to see the image.
No, that is true. But the rhetoric defending it as an artwork was exactly as described.
I am offended that incidents like this gives validation to cretins who complain about "wokeness."
I'd love to see the concern become less valid, but alas here we are...
I gather the Volokh Conspiracy has taken a break from its conspicuous silence concerning prominent censorship these days to bring us this report.
Volokh conspiracy has not written anything about the Zionist effort to suppress Farha.
The heads of white racial supremacist genocide-supporting Zionist anti-Jews are exploding because Zionists are losing the ability to censor and to suppress the truth.
JA,
What are you ranting about?
Depraved racial supremacist Zionist anti-Jews are totally outraged by Farha: Israeli outrage over Netflix's 'Farha' does more harm than good.
Farha shows the start of the genocide that depraved racial supremacist Zionist anti-Jews planned since the 1880s and put into operation in Dec 1947. This genocide has never ended. It's still practically impossible to discuss Zionist genocide against Palestinians on the mass media, and using the word genocide gets one banned on Twitter, Facebook, Tiktok, or Instagram.
I am banned from the Harvard Crimson because I used the phrase genocide perpetrator to refer to Amos Yadlin, who is a senior fellow at KSG. He is inadmissible to the USA according to
8 U.S. Code § 1182 - Inadmissible aliens.
Thank you for the explanation
There's a whole bunch of censorship issues the Volokh Conspiracy doesn't talk about . . .
Hmm, considering that you were able to link to it on freaking Netflix, they obviously aren't trying very hard.
On the other hand, see if you can find 2,000 Mules on Netflix . . . or Amazon Prime . . . or anywhere else. Weird!
It appears that there are Hamline University professors who continue to utter equally deeply religiously offensive and blasphemous hate speech that the world is billions rather than thousands of years old, that the earth revolves around the sun eather than the other way around, and that humans evolved from other species rather than being created from nothing.
By failing to curb all anti-religious hate speech including the anti-religious diatribes passing for instruction in the astronomy, geology, and biology departments, while selectively applying the wishes of the Muslim Student’s Association, the Hamilton administration is discriminating against the art history professor on the basis of religion. He should include a Civil Rights Act discrimination count in his lawsuit.
Also, why doesn’t the faculty simply go on strike and refuse to teach until the administrators involved in this resign? Are professors these days that meally-mouthed? How can a self-respecting faculty member continue to associate him or her self with an “institution” like this?
Not sure you understand how plenty of prof at plenty of universities are basically rent seekers who would never command the pay check they get blabbing in front of students if they had to get a job in the real world. Does anyone with an IQ above room temperature really thing someone with a title of Associate Vice President for Inclusive Excellence is anything but a rent seeker?
To be clear, I disagree with some conspirators that academic freedom is absolute. Religious universities in particular have some (not absolute) freedom to impose requirements based on religious doctrines. An Islamic university, for example, could probably prohibit presenting this painting in an art class as an Islamic religious requirement, identified as a religious requirement arising from its religious mission. And given how for more than a century abstract forms of art have superceded representational forms in the western art world, an Islamic university art department that focused exclusively on non-representational art might be considered avant-garde and not have a problem getting accredited, although an art history degree might have somewhat more trouble.
But Hamline University, although founded as a Methodist university, is not basing its action on adherence to its own religious doctrines. It therefore doesn’t get the benefit of religious freedom.
One is reminded of the experience of black students at white colleges in the 19th and into the 20th centuries, where they were all too often expelled for acts of hate and violence stemming from things like attempting to defend themselves while being attacked.
It seems to me that that history permits imputing Civil Rights implications to these sorts of accusations. It’s just the sort of thing members of oppressed groups have historically been accused of when people in universities seek a pretext to get rid of them. For this reason, I think the fact that it is pretextual – and it is clearly so, as the impunity with which science departments at Hamline are permitted to teach religiously offensive doctrines indisputably shows – is relevant.
These same Democrats who are on their fainting couches over this painting would be bathing in their own pee, celebrating if they saw "Piss Christ".
The problem of course is the privileging of ideas just because some person or group believes them fervently.
For strict 1A cases I'd agree, as that's a context that must remain absolute (as SCOTUS has fairly recently/unanimously affirmed).
The problem is cases that aren't as absolute -- e.g., social media, education -- what's the standard for those "quasi free speech" contexts?
The right and left have each had a turn swinging the pendulum to their respective extreme on this...though we haven't quite swung back from the latter yet.
I still think the only possible standard can be consensus. If something is truly fringe and we 'all' agree, then we can have "standards" about it. Otherwise, we all need to suck it up and accept we live in a pluralistic society...
The problem is the other guys think the only possible standard can be consensus, and that they're entitled to impose one by any means necessary. They're trying to forge a consensus by silencing anyone who disagrees with them.
And why wouldn't they think they can do that? So far it seems to be working, wherever they're in charge. And the artificial consensus they're creating in academic institutions is gradually spreading into the rest of society as their graduates get into positions of influence and impose it themselves. In an ever growing stretch of society, dissent is punished.
This is no laughing matter, we're watching a totalitarian system in the early (or not so early!) stages of taking hold. And not just in the US, it's more advanced in other nations.
Leftists routinely (and perhaps deliberately) conflate failing to adhere to a belief system with -phobia of the followers of said system. A non-Muslim is not prohibited from displaying images of Islam's last prophet, yet the leftist has decided that the perceived lack of piety must be punished. This behavior also manifests when they respond to non-adherents of the LGBTQIA++ Church use pronouns to describe someone according to their personal observations -- and not withstanding the disturbed person's insistences.
Yep -- just look at the veritable inquisition that any celebrity or athlete gets subjected to upon merely *politely declining* to wear a pride patch, etc.
The hate and bigotry they receive far outdoes any they've exhibited (which is often zero).
A little OT but as a really old guy with a lot of physical limitations (I do have a government issued disabled parking permit for starters) I also am a member of a gym/recreational center (where I mostly use the hot tub for my aches and pains and the pool for water walking in the shallow end) at a local flagship state university and have a locker in the facility locker room which is restricted to locker holders while the student locker room is open to all. There is also a disabled shower stall with a fold down seat and shower head on a hose at waist level for use by disabled patrons.
Thing is a lot of followers of Islam have (hope I remember all of this right) some kinda long drawn out ritual of cleansing themselves while not completely disrobing (they have to have a string over one shoulder that wraps around their body or some such device). While it does take me longer to take a shower than it use to when I was younger on multiple occasions I have seen followers of Islam spend up to a half an hour in the shower stall built for disabled people. I am not alone in being a disabled person using the restricted locker room and have spoken with other disabled people who have also had to wait to use the disabled facility. In fact the issue has been brought to the attention of the university administration and created a serious problem.
Who gets priority to use a facility created to meet 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, those with a certified disability or someone wishing to follow the tenants of their religion? Extra credit for how one determines just how one gets certified as following the tenants of their religion.
Quite an interesting question. I don't have an answer, but a timed-setting for the hot water might be the answer.
Place a pigs head in each stall.
Fatback Soap | Moisturizing, Handmade Plain Good Ol' Pork Fat Soap
Even a private university should defend the freedoms & values of our Constitutional Republic, including art & its history even though Islamic law opposes human representations, esp of Muhammad. Islam has always been opposed ideologically and historically with armies to Western Civilization. Why this cowardly acquiescence to Sharia? It’s shameful.
Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland has concluded that conservatives have made a poor choice of blog at which to whine about viewpoint-driven censorship.
(Unless I missed an apology -- or expression of regret for error -- from Prof. Volokh with respect to the Volokh Conspiracy's repeated, viewpoint-driven censorship of liberals who criticize conservatives. Does anyone recall such an acknowledgement of error, which could diminish the hypocrisy?)
Obviously the muslim kids parents are paying full freight tuition or the administration would not have gone bezerk, private little yeshiva needs shekels to pretend it has something to offer the world, elite private, religious, rather twisted, staffed with morons who can't work in industry nor teach at a real school ... much ado about nothing.
There is little room in my world view, or day to day life to accommodate irrationality particularly irrationality that demands I modify or censor what I think or say.
Anything you see or hear that sends you into the vapors sounds like a personal problem to me.
This story seems to have touched some peoples buttons pretty hard.
A bar chart of posts per poster might be interesting.
I, on the other hand, skipped most of the comments. Just noticed an amazing number of them seemed to be by Queenie.
Here’s hoping Hamline goes broke.
Clingers can hope Hamline goes broke.
Others can hope conservatives (including the hypocrites of the Volokh Conspiracy) continue to lose the American culture war and to be relegated to an increasingly isolated, disaffected, obsolete fringe in America.
I am content to let time and the reality-based modern world sift this. The results seem predictable.
At least the unfortunate art historian was not tried & found guilty of hate expression or defaming Islam. In the absurd EU he might have been where truth is not a defense. Take the case of Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff. She had suggested that Muhammad was a pedophile because he had s????x with 9 year old Aisha. The so called European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) upheld her conviction on inciting hatred toward Muslims and for having disparaged their prophet as unworthy of veneration.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/european-court-upholds-conviction-of-woman-who-condemned-muhammads-marriage-to-6-year-old/
In her book about it "The Truth is No Defense" she points out that
" It has been well-established in a number of jurisdictions—including several in the West—that a non-Muslim who quotes the Qur’an accurately can still be convicted of “hate speech.” This aligned with the definition of Islamic slander (also to be found in Reliance [Reliance of the Traveller]), which considers anything that insults Islam, whether true or false, to be defamation." That's shocking & insane.
I point all this out to warn that this kind of insanity might be the future here if Muslim demographics (which evidently has had a shameful cowering effect on Europe) and Islamic influence continue.
Indeed. And it doesn't have to be a very high percentage, either. Muslims punch WAY above their weight in terms of terrorism, so they can effectively intimidate a society at only a few percent.
Yes, unfortunately their intimidation power is great in view of the fact that Islam actually encourages martyrdom for Allah, which can translate into impossible to stop suicide bombings/attacks. Martyrs have all their sins immediately forgiven and it straight to the virgins of paradise.
Qur’an 9:111 “Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties, for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed.”
Muhammad said: "I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." – Sahih Bukhari (52:54).
Islam is one hell of a scary religion.
Okay I just made an account and it was solely to express the point that this website has in fact depicted, the islamic prophet, with in fact a picture.
Images of Muhammad are today in well known books like Dante’s Inferno (Canto 28), and a relief sculpture of Muhammad is in our Supreme Court building. What non-Muslims would demand they be removed? This disgusting “associate vice president of inclusive excellence” should be denounced & fired instead.
Bullshit. (As usual)
Sure, since a society based on not upsetting the most sensitive and delusional people is likely to work out well for everyone.
Regarding your #3:
Not all lecturers/instructors are "adjuncts" or contingent faculty; it varies a lot by institution, but often times they're full-time, long-term positions.
Non-tenure/non-tenure-track faculty don't get the particular type of academic freedom that comes with tenure, of course -- though at pubic institutions, they do get identical first-amendment protections.
(looks around)
"Who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?!"
Bullshit! (Again as usual)
"...and people try not to upset people. " You have a complete lack of self awareness.
And most adults who want to live in a free and open society learn to ignore things they don't like to hear. There's a saying about sticks and stones and all that.
As Merriam-Webster confirms, the primary meaning of "phobia" is "exaggerated fear of".
But the present instance is a clear example of my proffered definition, as the professor in question displayed neither fear nor hostility, he simply didn't kowtow to Muslims.
Actually, your link only shows the meaning of "fear and hatred". It does not show any usages to mean "hatred".
“It’s been used in the sense of “hatred of” for quite a long time (since 1877) actually.”
What does that have to do with its use in this case?
Your cite does not support your claim. The word "xenophobia" is dated to 1877 but the precise meaning was "irrational fear of strangers". The "hatred of" connotation was merged in later when the word "misoxenie" fell out of fashion.
Fuck Moose-lums!
Speaker 1: “Do not try and bend the spoon—that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.”
Speaker 2: “What truth?”
Speaker 1: “There is no spoon.”
Speaker 2: "Heresy!"
So forcing an entire university to practice a tenet of a particular religion is ok with you. How are you on compulsory university wide communion.
And I’d also guess that you were fine back in the day with the old “Piss Christ” thing.
In a free society, you can believe anything you want and I can make fun of you.
Otherwise, fuck off.
"Religious beliefs that seem silly to non-adherents are often accommodated in our society, this is true."
Sure, we often permit religious adherents to engage in a practice that seems silly, but I can't think of an example where we accommodate a religious belief by requiring non-adherents to engage in the practice.
Or send them off to a parochial school.
Accommodating someone's beliefs by censoring everyone else is the opposite of freedom. But that would not bother you, right?
According to the article that is how it was done. The assignment was optional.
According to the article that's exactly what was done. Student complained anyway, professor got fired anyway (assuming his account is accurate)
The day after celebrating the Virgin Birth of a made up Superstitious Surpreme Being???? You don't say!!!,
Frank "You won't believe what they say happened to him, I mean "Him" on Easter"
No, But giving the complainers a scalp is far beyond a polite accommodation. And the degree to which we accommodate a religion at all depends on where the woke police list the religion on the oppression scale. Because treating everyone the same is beyond their diverse and tolerant capability.
Islam, coming in at a strong #2 on the practitioner count and being far and away the most oppressive religion going should be very low on the oppression list, except that the diversity cops give it tons of Minority Points.
"Otherwise, fuck off."
Again, Bullshit.
We are talking about a university here, not a church or company. Universities are supposed to foster free and open exchange of ideas.
In fact, Hamline says so on its website:
The "Christ in a bottle of urine" was a publicly funded piece of art that many on the left defended. So, no, it's more of an educated guess than an imagination.
Yes, an art professor showing his class a famous piece of art is exactly the same as a sports-entertainer disrespecting the country and offending half the audience.
/sarc
What if the rules of the sport specifically require the employees to respectfully stand while the anthem is played? Also maybe worth noting that the NFL didn't fire any of those players for kneeling. The major figure involved in that controversy was fired because he was a sub-par talent. He then chose to make kneeling a more important part of his resume than his ability to help a team win football games. Once it became all about him his prospects became slim.
So not at all like this situation.
Um, a rather categorical statement, no?
If someone is offended by others not practicing the religion, then yes, not offending that person requires practicing the religion.
And that appears to be the case here. The only reason some students are offended is that the teacher failed to follow the Muslim religious prohibition against the display of Muhammed.
Refusing to show a historic image of Muhammad in an art history class would be practicing Sharia.
We should not wish to live & practice under horrible Sharia.
I don’t read right wing trash, as I’ve stated like 1000 times on here. Right wing trash is the same to me as left wing trash - a distracting waste of time.
I’m asking myself a lot more frequently why I bother to talk to people that don’t listen to anything anyone else says. I’m not talking about disagreeing. I’m talking about simply refusing to listen to factual things that I say about myself.
You’re one of the worst as to that. Why bother to respond to you if you decline to accept basic truths about someone you don’t know?
Huh? Who are you claiming was required to engage in what religious practice? Be specific.
You know, you’re right. We need to rein in those public employee unions that have demanded to shut down the government because of religious and other holidays.
Even more bullshit.
You'd say that. I wouldn't.
Universities exist to educate their students. Which in the last few centuries in Western societies means free and open inquiry.
Sports teams exist to make money by entertaining people. When you offend a large part of your audience, you are hurting the bottom line. It's like a Hollywood actress calling her audience stupid. (Which has happened.) Bad idea.
...except literally nobody got fired for kneeling.
The Queen is running a special on bullshit today.
" So forcing an entire university to practice a tenet of a particular religion is ok with you. "
This describes dozens, if not hundreds, of conservative-controlled schools (downscale, nonsense-teaching, censorship-shackled, discriminatory, low-quality yahoo farms).
Of course QA would be okay with it.
" In a free society, you can believe anything you want and I can make fun of you. "
Prof. Volokh plainly does not believe that.
Just ask Artie Ray.
Or try to use the word "sl_ck-j_w" to describe a conservative at a white, male, right-wing blog.
I think you should use the word slack-jaw at a white, male, right-wing bar.
Far and away?
"And the degree to which we accommodate a religion at all depends on where the woke police list the religion on the oppression scale."
Actually, I think it depends on where the religion ranks on the "Blows shit up if they get pissed off." scale. Muslims punch way above their weight on that one.
I was not aware the Federalist Society operated a bar.
Does Leonard Leo know about this? If he doesn't get his cut, he'll be pissed.
Here is the companion piece, with Sugar Miami Little Steven Van Zandt on lead guitar (and at the knobs).
QA,
It is unfortunate that you do not know nor respect standard definitions of words in the English language, preferring instead the preferences of the ideologically driven.
Holy fucking idiocy. To begin with, what this guy said is considered to be historically true, or at least possible, by a lot of secular historians.
And either way, you’re equating one guy saying one thing with governments run by Islamic tenets that won’t let women do things like drive or go to college. Or even show their faces in public. Yep, it’s exactly the same thing.
Your smug superiority is exposed as silly every time you actually try to make a point.
Publicly funded before or after the special 'preferred flavor of superstition' defunding mechanism was invoked?
Those schools are filled with people (most of whom are brighter than you) who choose to go there to exist with those practices. As opposed to people who attend Hamline that didn’t know before they got there that they were expected to avert their eyes from pictures of Muhammad or else.
You might have avoided making a fool of yourself by following that link.
Your claimed familiarity with the expectations of Hamline students is noted and dubious.
As opposed to people who attend Hamline that didn’t know before they got there that they were expected to avert their eyes from pictures of Muhammad or else.
What? That's not remotely a description of what happened. Nobody was asked to avert their eyes from anything.
Rules of the sport?
WTF? What is it, a five-yard penalty?
Not talking about illegalities done. But as an American and Christian university it should defend the values of our Constitutional Republic, of Christianity and even art history. What I said about Islam is true and its warfare against Christianity is historical & ideological fact. Why this cowardly acquiescence to Sharia? It's shameful.
To the extent that you are doing it because the tenants of traditional Christianity forbid questioning the virgin birth, you are, and if your grandma fires you for saying that the virgin birth is malarkey because Christianity forbids saying that, then she will have fired you for refusing to practice Christianity.
Talk to some Bible savvy Jews, and they will point out that the Virgin Birth tenet is probably the result of a mistranslation. And the idea that Mary didn’t have more children after Jesus was even ore ludicrous. The Bible clearly say that Jesus had 4 brothers and multiple sisters, as was typical. What wouldn’t have been typical at that time for an observant Jew not to have married.
Personally, none of these things detract from my faith a a Christian.
Edited due to posting in the wrong spot.
"People are often told to change their behaviors to accommodate other people’s religion. That can take lots of forms..."
Yes, and one of those forms is to require someone to practice another person's religion.
Requiring someone to engage in, or refrain from engaging in, a practice solely because the religion requires it falls into that category.
Are you claiming an employer can require you to adhere the tenants of a particular religion based on respect for that religion?
If not, then I'm not sure what your point is.
Majority religious practices are so often and easily accommodated that the beneficiaries don't even think of them as accommodations, but as some kind of natural order. Did you work yesterday? Do you have to work most Sundays? Do you have today off because a Christian holiday happened to be on a Sunday? Does your local government open some of its proceedings with a prayer prescribed by the locally-dominant Christian sect?
To avoid misunderstanding, I am against what happened here, but it is plain nonsense that minority religions generally get more accommodations than the dominant ones. In the eyes of the dominant religions, the many accommodations they get are simply their due, and, therefore, invisible.
We need to abolish public employee unions in any case.
But to the extent that public unions have demanded that the entire government because adherents of a particular religion are offended that people are working on a religious holiday, or that the government should be shut down out of respect to a particular religious belief, then sure.
Do you have any examples of this?
Where did QA say that?
First, it's "tenets," not "tenants." Christianity is a religion, not a landlord.
Learn English.
Second, it is unbelievably idiotic to say that I am practicing Christianity if I decline to say something that contradicts someone else's Christian beliefs. Being polite is not converting.
Huh? I'm asking him if that's what he's claiming.
He sure seems to be implying it, by bring up respect and accommodation for religion in a context where someone was fired for engaging in behavior that some Muslims believe is prohibited by the religion.
"First, it’s “tenets,” not “tenants.” Christianity is a religion, not a landlord.
Learn English."
Lol you caught me in a spelling error. You must be so happy.
"Second, it is unbelievably idiotic to say that I am practicing Christianity if I decline to say something that contradicts someone else’s Christian beliefs. Being polite is not converting."
Good thing I never said that then. Learn English.
To the extent that you are doing it because the tenants of traditional Christianity forbid questioning the virgin birth, you are, and if your grandma fires you for saying that the virgin birth is malarkey because Christianity forbids saying that, then she will have fired you for refusing to practice Christianity.
Sounds to me like you are saying exactly that.
Well, it's worse than that: they were told they couldn't even be given the opportunity to make that choice.
Assuming you're referring to the bigotry 'against' those who don't stand...yes, that would be a perfect analogy if you’re just talking about those who are merely declining to stand (rather than those who actively/purposefully engage in a counter-activity, such as kneeling, during such time).
So the Amish people who don't have access to the Internet won't see them?
I believe in free speech. No professor should be cancelled just because what he says as part of his course is claimed offensive. Lots of pretend victims play power games with "offensive speech."
Geesh, this place has gotten hostile over the years (I was here, albeit not with this username, well before social media made nuanced dialogue impossible *everywhere*). Dude, not every post is intended as a knock-out takedown...sometimes a peripherally related point is just that.
Admittedly, it only slightly impacts 1 of your 3 points...but hey, I'm just a moderate conservative so I'm not going to 100% disagree with everything you say. Hope that's OK.
Anyone who has attended a sporting event can attest to the hostility that spectators — not even participants — attract if they fail to observe the religious rituals of the national anthem by standing and removing their caps.
It's undisputed that the artist received money from the NEA. Are you suggesting he had to give it back?
Can you explain why you think it's not practicing their religion? I mean, it's a practice required by their religion, and your engaging in it because it's required by their religion.
So you can't explain?
In this instance, a professor was fired for declining to adopt the Muslim religious practice of abstaining from depicting Muhammed.
Can you explain why you think that has anything to do with politeness or respect?
Huh? A rule not to offend does indeed equate to a rule requiring the practice of someone else's religion, if someone else is offended that you won't practice their religion.
You can't defeat that argument, so you are reduced to repeatedly asserting that it's goofy.
"Hamline University is dedicated to intellectual inquiry in its full depth, breadth, abundance, and diversity. It is committed to academic freedom and celebrates free expression for everyone. The University embraces the examination of all ideas, some of which will potentially be unpopular and unsettling, as an integral and robust component of intellectual inquiry."
Obviously Hamline University has been shamefully violating this.
No; QA is right: it's goofy. You are not practicing Judaism by not eating a cheeseburger today.
I said that declining to say certain things can be a religious practice. You two are saying it can't be, which is just dumb.
Sounds roughly as bad as the censorship (banning) of Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland by Prof. Eugene Volokh and his blog, the Volokh Conspiracy.
Lol. You're trying to make some idiotic distinction between being required to practice another person's religion, and being required to follow another person's religious practices.
You're the one beclowning yourself, not me.
I have a vague recollection that superstitious conservative censors extracted a pound of flesh from the funder of that silly art (which art, as I recall, was just as silly as ostensible adults who claim to believe that childish fucking fairy tales are true stories).
Again, what does that have to do with Brett's comment.
One party is asking for accommodation, the other is using accommodation demanded by law. Not quite the same.
I dunno, the censoring of Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland was something.
I mean, no man deserves to have his butt hurt that badly.
Artie Ray is fine. It's the culture war casualties who are hurting.
Um, I am if the reason I'm not eating a cheeseburger is because Judiasm forbids it.
Again, defeat the argument, don't just call it goofy.
But that's not the reason you're not eating a cheeseburger. You're not eating a cheeseburger to be polite to the person who doesn't want to see you eating a cheeseburger.
It doesn't make you Jewish, and it doesn't make you vegan, to eschew cheeseburgers around Jews or vegans.
"No; QA is right: it’s goofy. You are not practicing Judaism by not eating a cheeseburger today."
But if he is fired from a job because him eating one offended a Jewish person, then this would be a similar situation.
If you have to change what you do at the risk of termination due to somebody else's religious sensibilities...then they are demanding you follow their religion's tenets.
"...a Christian holiday happened to be on a Sunday? "
While Christmas is indeed a holiday for most Christians it is not a "Christian holiday" by virtue of the law which created it in 1870 along with three other Federal holidays.
I believe it was challenged in court (SC?) and was upheld because it was thought to also have a secular component. As with many holidays (official or traditional) businesses promote holidays to increase sales.
Queen heaves more bullshit. Sets new record.
Dear Queen: Fuck off!
I don't think so.
"It is my understanding that, in the Hamline class, the professor gave students advance notice that the image would be shown (both in the syllabus and verbally), allowed students to turn off the screen if they wished, and did not require them to visually engage with the painting. The intent was to educate, not to offend or show disrespect."
Sometimes.
But your examples, taking the form of "some other accommodation doesn't require someone to practice someone else's religion, ergo this accommodation doesn't require someone to practice someone else's religion, doesn't defeat my argument.
The argument is invalid, and sometimes the premise is wrong.
I find that reductio ad adsurdum often doesn't work, because it so heavily depends on the person you're trying it with agreeing with you as to what's absurd. And you're employing it in the first place because the person you're arguing with doesn't agree with you.
It is beyond me why so many people respond to grey boxes that contain no novel information.
Duck and weave, Artie -- did the artist have to return the money he got from the NEA, or not?
I don't remove my cap for the anthem, and generally do not stand for it either anymore.
I've not received any hostility at all for those decisions.
In your hypothetical, one side is declining to say something as a conscious choice to be respectful towards the belief of someone else.
Choosing to be respectful and not insult someone does not make you a practitioner of their religion.
Your argument is stupid.
No.
Does that improve the conduct of the censorious assholes who objected to the art and punished the artist's associates, or diminish the hypocrisy of this white, male, right-wing blog with respect to the Volokh Conspiracy's shitty, partisan, repeated censorship?
David is all knowing and all seeing so just shut up and believe him.
Maybe you should have read the whole post.
I literally never heard nor read the word before 9/11.
"It’s more accurate to say the hate and harassment of Muslims ratcheted way up afterwards."
...yet Jews had considerably more hate crimes against them the entire time...
Queen almathea 2 hours ago
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Now you’ve said something important. To the extent that understanding is true that undermines the student’s complaint significantly imo.
Compare this to all of your bullshit posted above.
Like I said maybe you should read the post first.
Which makes it fall under Rev's complaint, and this blog takes it seriously to call such private universities to task for not adhering to their own boilerplate for free speech, discussion, and intellectual investigation.
The whole "X-phobia" accusation, used to try to intimidate people into abandoning opposition to, or actively accommodating X, is fairly new. It looks to me like it first started with "homophobia" back in 70's, in what appeared to be an effort to suggest that guys who found gays disgusting were actually afraid of them, or maybe suppressing their own tendencies in that direction. While stupid, this was at least in keeping with the normal meaning of a phobia.
Google Ngram says that Islamophobia first showed up in the early 90's, aside from some very sporadic instances, and really started taking off around '97. Probably an effort to delegitimize public response to the Khobar Towers bombing. Maybe it was just starting to die off when 9-11 happened.
As is usual, the terminology started out sorta on point, and then the reuse made less and less sense.
But nothing in the Christian Bible that is directly Islamophobic.
At least Christianity allows for separation of religion & state, and the NT doesn't call for the world to be made Christian by military conquest like Islam does for its Allah.
Well, the unidirectional nature of time being what it is, that's not exactly surprising.
But why to XENOphobia?
The 1877 date refers to a usage of the word "xenophobia", not of "Isamophobia". M-W gives a fist instance for the latter of 1923. Whether that usage was a polemical invention by a lefty cannot be determined from the entry.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Islamophobia
M-W is of course generally non-prescriptive. If the left uses it polemically often enough it will generate an entry with that definition in time.
The professor in this instance was not obviously "Islamophobic".
Not really. The hatred of foreigners was always mixed with a strong element of fear. They are coming to take our jobs and our women and all of that. That's not really a valid comparison.
I've never understood this whole issue. How desperate does the need for outrage have to become to consider kneeling a sign of disrespect?
"3. You’ve betrayed your love of partisan bullshit over love of football. Kaepernick was as or more talented at that time than many starting and even more second string quarterbacks."
By any known measurement...no, he was not. His numbers were terrible. He lost his starting QB job to Blaine Gabbert --- who is ALSO terrible. He was a worse QB than, say, Baker Mayfield is presently. He demanded starting QB money when he was not significantly better than a scout team QB. He's had two major NFL tryouts since nobody wanted to sign him and, shockingly, nobody STILL wants to sign him.
He was not fired for kneeling. He was fired for being a not-terribly-good QB who demanded to be paid superstar money which nobody in their right mind would offer.
...except they have no problem railroading men, discriminating against Asians, etc.
This "customer is always right" mentality is not in apparent existence for universities.
It's only a some of the customers are always right. The ones politically aligned with the administration.
Well, if you do not want to bake a cake or make a website for something you find offensive for religious reasons, whether you're allowed to say no to doing contract work seems to be not fully known currently.
That's not even demanding anything outside of "Do Not Force Me to do Contract Labor I Do Not Wish to Do"
"More", maybe. But "stupider"? "More offensive"? Probably not.
In fact, my impression is that the kneeling was an effort to make firing him politically untenable.
It's not actually that complicated. Kneeling would not ordinarily be considered a sign of disrespect, if other people were just doing random things.
But to make a point of kneeling when others are STANDING, and they're standing specifically as a sign of respect, is nothing but a deliberate effort to be seen as NOT expressing respect. You're going out of your way to not look like you're sharing in the respect, after all.
How is that not an expression of disrespect? Of course it is.
Really, the notion that it's confusing is kind of disingenuous.