The Volokh Conspiracy
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An Assessment of the Oral Argument in 303 Creative
The two-hour session revealed weaknesses in Colorado's case against the web designer who claims a free-speech right to refuse website designs for same-sex marriages. But some conservative justices also signaled a desire for a limited ruling.
Some of my reactions to the oral argument in 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis were published as an op-ed in the Boston Globe today. What follows is a summary for those unable to get beyond the paywall:
In short, I think Justice Kagan asked the most damaging hypothetical for Colorado's argument that the website designer has no free speech right to refuse to create custom websites for same-sex weddings because, the state asserts, the public accommodations law targets discriminatory conduct, and only incidentally burdens speech. What if the designer placed the words, "God blesses this union," on the websites she sold to opposite-sex couples but not to same-sex couples, Kagan asked? That would violate Colorado's law, but in context, would have dramatic implications for the designer's own speech. Colorado had no good answer to this question. And although Brian Fletcher, the U.S. Deputy Solicitor General, gamely defended Colorado's position, he conceded that if the state applied its law in that way, it would constitute a direct regulation of speech (not an "incidental" one). The designer's case would then fall squarely within the domain of Hurley, which held that enforcement of the state public accommodations law to a parade violated the First Amendment because it compelled speech. The implication of that concession is that public accommodations laws are subject to rigorous First Amendment scrutiny where they are applied to an activity that is inherently or historically expressive, like a parade or custom website design. And Colorado, the SG's office, and the appeals court all conceded that such designs are "inherently expressive" or "pure speech."
Fletcher also asserted that discrimination against same-sex marriage and status-based anti-gay discrimination cannot be distinguished. This idea has some support in snippets of Supreme Court opinions. But, I argue, it would have unsettling implications if it could be applied to compel speech that opposes same-sex marriage. Such expression could easily be relabelled as "status-based discrimination" based on sexual orientation, which in some contexts violates state or federal law
Finally, I note that several of the justices (including Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, and Barrett) seemed unprepared to hold that even expressive providers could refuse to serve same-sex weddings in all cases. Some website services, like the sale of plug-and-play websites and other pre-made templates, do not have the same implications for the expression of the designer. But the web designer here is proposing to sell custom designs. That's the service or good that should get free speech protection.
I close the op-ed with this thought:
Since Obergefell v. Hodges, the 2015 Supreme Court decision declaring a fundamental constitutional right of gay couples to marry, there have been hundreds of thousands of same-sex weddings in the United States. Only a tiny portion have encountered wedding service providers who decline to take photographs, arrange flowers, or bake cakes because of objections to same-sex marriages.
The nation's tradition of pluralism under the First Amendment can accommodate the few expressive providers who object to same-sex marriages without impairing the very real need to protect gay people in the public marketplace.
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What if the website designer who didn't want to endorse gay marriage by saying "God bless this union" supplied a "your slogan here" space for the couple to fill in?
This goes back to the difference between a boilerplate website design, such as you effectively describe, and a custom design. As a married, gay, web professional myself, I'm siding with 303 Creative on this. I think it's forced speech--provided that she only does custom designs. If she ever offers boilerplate designs, then it ceases to be forced speech. (IMHO)
Let me know when a Homo Cake decorator makes a cake for the "God Hates Fags" guy
Is the "God hates Fags" guy part of a protected class? I believe that is fundamental to public accommodation laws, correct?
Hey, where do I go to get included as part of a “protected class”? Do we get to vote on this?
Are you religious? Then you are a member of what may be the most protected class already.
You'd have to ask one of the lawyers about what it takes to establish an identified group as a protected class. I believe it is a long and difficult road that ends at the Supreme Court, so I'd get started if I were you.
Nah. Remember the 1A also imposes some equal protection type stuff in terms of viewpoint discrimination.
Aren’t public accomodation laws different than 1st Amendment claims? For a public accommodation law, is viewpoint discrimination included? There may also be an exception for words like “fags”, but I don’t know for sure.
Probably larger class than the Homos, and more discriminated against (now, anyway, when is the "Straight Heterosexual Protection Act" going to be passed (passed? how about just proposed?) But hey, in a few months you'll be able to catch the HIV-ie from a Blood Transfusion just like Arthur Ashe did.
Wow. You manage to whine because you aren't treated like you are special any longer while demonizong gay people. Why don't you just say, "I'm a shitty human being" and be done with it.
I donate blood all the time (AB Neg) no $$$$ (that's for Plasma, which fortunately, I don't need to sell(anymore) just lots of unfortunates who need my Erythrocytes (and Leukocytes, Platelets)
Infact, alot of them have the Hiv-ie,
What have you done??
Frank "Where's my Juice and Cookie??"
Well, shit. If giving blood makes you a good person, I'm a fucking saint. I gave my first couple gallons before I graduated high school.
You giving blood doesn't excuse or mitigate your gaybashing. If you actually give blood, you would know it's screened for HIV (and numerous other blood-borne diseases).
If you actually weren't an Idiot, you'd know there's a "latent" period, when HIV infected peoples don't test positive (don't blame me, blame the Virus) which is why peoples still get HIV from Blood Transfusions (ask Arthur Ashe, he's playing in the Celestial Open) and why "High Risk" individuals (not just Homo's) weren't allowed (until now) to donate.
Frank "Gay Basher? I love Caesar Romero, and Lindsey Buckingham-Nicks Graham"
Arthur Ashe died long before HIV testing in the blood supply existed. You would have to point to an example of your weird "latency" theory, since detecting a virus in blood would detect a virus in the blood, regardless of whether it had cause AIDS in the donor yet.
Gays weren't allowed to donate since testing started because of irrational fear in those, like you, who search for reasons to marginalize them. It's a you problem.
Let's see, there are religious groups who object to SSM on religious grounds. Religious discrimination is one of the things protected by most public accomodations laws. So, yes.
Colorado's defenders here get around that by positing a distinction between expression that is "inextricably intertwined" with a protected class and not. Which IMO is pure sophistry, designed to allow the state to suppress speech it does not like and compel speech it likes.
How on Earth is getting gay married inexplicably intertwined with homosexuality?
Homos just recently appropriated normal culture, amd if anything could be protected because of intertwined it would be gross degenerate stuff like shit eating, disease spreading and child molesting.
The distinction has nothing to do with whether the service is expressive. The limo driver is discriminating against gays by refusing to serve a same-sex marriage. But he is not discriminating against a protected classification by refusing to service all organizations that oppose (or favor) same-sex marriage.
"Let’s see, there are religious groups who object to SSM on religious grounds. Religious discrimination is one of the things protected by most public accomodations laws. So, yes."
Maybe I missed the 11th Commandment, "Thou shalt hate fags". If not, that seems more like hatred against a protected class than an infringement on religious liberty.
Well, yes; it's a religious group — Westboro Baptist Church.
Ah, I didn't realize that it was a reference to a specific group of hateful bigots. It seems like it's just a general belief of right-wing hatemongers.
I guess if it is an established religious belief, as loathsome as it may be, that would be a different matter.
"Is the “God hates Fags” guy part of a protected class?"
Yes -- he will claim that it is part of his religious beliefs (protected) and (accurately) state that Leviticus 18:22 states "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" and that Leviticus 20:13 states that "if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
You know if they ever make Homosexuality a non-Capital crime, next thing you'll have to make wedding cakes for them or they'll (literally) take you to the Surpreme Court!
I wonder how many of the folks who are quick to condemn others' behavior, citing the book of Leviticus, refuse to eat shellfish. http://godhatesshrimp.com/
If only somebody had written an explication of how and why those two things are considered different, we might be able to mete out appropriate punishment in the two kinds of behavior!
If only government-chosen classifications get the protection of "public accommodation" laws then they're all trash and badly need repeal.
Of course he is and to categorically refuse to serve him because he is religious would violate anti-discrimination law. But, I have feeling that's not what Drackman meant to test.
What if instead the decorator refused to make cakes which said "God Hates Fags" and "Darwin Hates Fags" for religious and secular organizations alike? That doesn't strike me as discrimination on the basis of religion.
I have a twist on your alternative hypothetical: What if the decorator refused to design websites for, or bake cakes to celebrate, gay marriages specifically rather than for gay people in general? Would that be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation?
Oh, wait, that's exactly what this case is about.
Yes, it's discrimination against gays. On the other hand, refusing to service someone because they believe same-sex marriage is a good thing does not discriminate against gays.
Josh R, that is where we part ways, I think, on this case = Yes, it’s discrimination against gays. I am just not seeing that, ultimately. To me, it is protecting the individual's freedom of conscience to refuse to articulate a message they do not agree with, and especially without compulsion of the government.
The alternative, where the government can compel speech, is infinitely worse Josh R. Isn't there a saying to the effect that bad facts make for bad cases, or something similar? I sort of feel like this is what we have here. I would have preferred a different set of facts to get to the core issue (to me): Can the government compel speech that violates one's freedom of conscience? I would say the government must not ever have that power over us; no way!
Pragmatically, the marketplace is big enough to offer many, many alternative choices to purchase products. I don't think SSM couples have any issue actually getting a wedding cake in 2022 America.
I think Smith should win (*) even though she is discriminating against gays because of her freedom of speech rights. If instead she isn't discriminating against gays in the first place, then neither is the limo driver. Is that would believe?
(*) Perhaps the case isn't ripe because we don't have the facts about what content she is being compelled to create (it's a pre-enforcement challenge).
“To me, it is protecting the individual’s freedom of conscience to refuse to articulate a message they do not agree with”
You can do that by not running a business. This is my objection to the current trend of “religious liberty” cases. They start from the premise that the business owner has a right to run the business under a different set of rules and laws than their competitors. Fundementally, if you can’t accept the rule of law, you shouldn’t be permitted to participate in the first place.
“The alternative, where the government can compel speech, is infinitely worse”
The business owner knew the rules going in. Jim Crow showed that allowing discrimination against consumers by business owners was not only a violation of equal protection, it was detrimental to those discriminated against. If you intentionally jump in front of a moving car, you are the one who is responsible for the consequences.
“Can the government compel speech that violates one’s freedom of conscience?”
If you accepted that possibility when you opened your business, yes.
“Pragmatically, the marketplace is big enough to offer many, many alternative choices to purchase products.”
Depends where you live, doesn’t it? If you live in a small town with only one retailer, there may not be alternatives. Would you have exceptions for markets where there were no other options? Markets where there were no comperable options (a bakery that didn’t make wedding cakes, for example)? What would the definition of “other options”? Less than 50 miles away?
Again, if we look at Jim Crow, we can see how permitting discrimination in commerce ends. I personally hate the idea that this isn’t something that the market can be trusted to solve because I am a fervent capitalist. But with a concrete example like Jim Crow, preventing such behavior seems to be a valid (and significant) government interest.
And yet, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation has been legal in most of the country for all of its existence, and we didn't see it turn into Jim Crow.
could we not use the term "homo"---how old are you?
Ooohhhhhhh I'm telling!!!!!!!!!!!! I want a Cake that says "God Bless these 2 Homos!!!!!!!!" Prepare to be financially ruined!!!
It's shorthand for "Homosexual" which is the correct term, despite the Homo's ass-fucking the perfectly innocent word "Gay" (You know there are unfortunate peoples with the last name of "Gay" and girls with that as a first name, talk about that "Boy named Sue"
Frank "Practicing Homo-Sapien"
The specific message has little to do with the 1A issue. If making custom works for hire gets full artistic expression protection AND SCOTUS decides that trumps discrimination law and loses the scrutiny battle, etc... then there's not a clean way to limit the power of a "speaker" in commerce to discriminate at all.
I don't believe a commoditized speech vs custom speech distinction holds up. The 303 argument is that making the website conveys an endorsement of the conduct (people?) she opposes. If 303 wins, what's the 1A limitation that says I can't print 500 "We're All Equals" t-shirts and refuse to sell them to Puerto Ricans?
If 303 wins, what’s the 1A limitation that says I can’t print 500 “We’re All Equals” t-shirts and refuse to sell them to Puerto Ricans?
What limitation is there on you doing that right now?
I believe there is a specific difference in treatment between custom (or contracted) work and general, mass-produced (or boilerplate) products. There has always been more protection for individually contracted services and products, correct?
You are In-correct Sir!!!
It's that old "Gratuitous assertions can be Gratuitously refuted"
Consider yourself refuted (Gratuitously)
was it as good for you?
Frank
For some reason I am skeptical of your assertion. I used "I believe" and asked a question because I didn't want to assert something that wasn't legally accurate. I'm not a lawyer, hence the question.
Can one of the lawyers, or someone who works in this area, answer the question?
Is there different treatment of custom/individually contracted products versus general/retail products?
At least outside of the first amendment context, not really, no. You may be exempt if you're selling stuff as a hobby to your friends, but if you're in business, it doesn't matter the nature of the product; the public accommodations laws apply.
Thank you. Apparently I was mistaken.
That's not her argument. That was the Masterpiece Cakeshop argument. Her argument is that the specific words she would be compelled to say would actually be endorsement of the conduct. That's why she's in a much stronger position than some of the other challenges to these laws.
"By making me sell a cake to a gay wedding, or making me drive a gay married couple to the church in my limo, I am being forced to implicitly convey the message that I endorse gay marriage" is just going to be a loser of an argument.
"By making me write, 'Gay marriage is great,' I am being forced to endorse the message that gay marriage is great," is a likely winner.
“By making me sell a cake to a gay wedding, or making me drive a gay married couple to the church in my limo, I am being forced to implicitly convey the message that I endorse gay marriage” is just going to be a loser of an argument."
As you may know, I disagree on the cake, although not the limo.
What's your view of requiring a flag maker to custom-make a Pride flag?
You didn't ask me, but...
A Pride flag is a symbol with a specific and well-known meaning. It's meant to convey a message. It's speech. So contracting for a custom pride flag is forced speech, in my non-lawyerly opinion.
1. It conveys a message
2. It isn't a commodity product the flag-maker already offers for sale
In the case of a white wedding cake with no words or images on it relating to the same-sex nature of an event, it conveys no message and is a commodity product, even if one gets to choose between pink, yellow, or white flowers. Add any words or images to that, like a pride flag, and that changes.
A flag, qua flag, is a piece of cloth — one which can be used to convey a message. Flag making (like cake baking) is not inherently expressive.
Great! taking my "Nazi Flag" business to "Shark Tank", it'll make billions of shekels in Tel Aviv!!!!!
To be clear, I was not making any normative claims; I was simply making a prediction. Courts are not going to overturn anti-discrimination law and are going to construe any 1A exceptions as narrowly as possible.
I don't think refusing to make a Pride Flag discriminates against gays, so you don't reach the First Amendment analysis.
You are missing the distinction between making a custom shirt for every customer, and making 500 and selling them as is.
Even Jack Phillips the Colorado Baker said he'd sell any ready made cake in his shop to any buyer, it was only custom ordered, custom made cakes he refused to make and sell.
Just noting that even custom made cakes can be non-expressive. If I order a three-tiered cake in white icing with marbled pastry and strawberry filling, I haven't ordered anything that implicates speech.
Web designing for a wedding necessarily involves selecting images and entering text that is inherently expressive.
Is a boilerplate wedding cake actually "custom"? Or is an individual contract (not a boilerplate contract) required?
What if the designer placed the words, "God blesses this union," on the websites she sold to opposite-sex couples but not to same-sex couples, Kagan asked? That would violate Colorado's law, but in context, would have dramatic implications for the designer's own speech. Colorado had no good answer to this question.
This is an example of a valid ideological discussion. 1A is not a hard partisan issue, at least not historically. But we see how the issue gets analyzed. It's easy to see votes changing based on this kind of discussion.
Observe that it has nothing to do with the wording of the constitution, nor of any historic legislation or judicial legacy.
". . . the First Amendment can accommodate the few expressive providers who object to same-sex marriages. . . . "
So a liiiiiitttttlllle bit of bigotry is OK.
Got it.
Since when is bigotry not free speech? Vile, to be sure, but protected.
A valid point! Score one for shawn_dude!
If you had more than a liiiiiiiiiiiittttttllllle bit of brain power, you wouldn't have even needed to make this post.
Sure? you sound confused penis breath.
Even Nazis get to march, apedad.
I hate Illinois Nazis
It really never was about Nazis -- the concern was that if the Nazis could hold a rally in a Chicago park, then the Cook County Republican Party might want to do so -- and that would be a problem...
Elwood!!
its more than a "few"
Or, it is not the business of the State to compel or forbid speech based on whether it believes such is "bigotry."
Seriously, have you ever heard of the Nazis who wanted to march on Skokie?
This idea that the government should (must!) "stamp out bigotry" (I'm pretty sure I'm quoting our current president) is . . . totalitarian.
Direct regulation of teachers is totally fine for the State to do, though!
That they not indoctrinate children? YES!!!! (HT M. Albert)
We've seen what happens when such public employees get off the leash so... absolutely! You think being a "teacher" means you get to deploy public resources to advance your insanities? I don't.
Or, it is not the business of the State to compel or forbid speech based on whether it believes such is “bigotry.”
Who does some Chucklehead Elementary School Teacher think they are talking to my daughters about Sex?? I don't talk to them about it now, and they're grown! (OK, did give "The Talk" when they were 12, along with quarterly Medroxyprogesterone injections (pretty sure they weren't "active" but "Trust but Contracept" was my motto. Almost 20 years later, and still no kids (no Lesbo, they just don't want an Alien busting out of their snatch)
Frank "Realist"
"Who does some Chucklehead Elementary School Teacher think they are talking to my daughters about Sex??"
Talking about the existence of gay and trans people isn't talking about sexual activity. It's astonishing that you have a daughter if you can't understand what sex is.
If the State is paying for them in a public school, then yes.
Anymore silly comments you want to make?
You're stuck in lawyer brain. First of all, both are legal even if you don't much like that they are.
So if neither is against the law, the distinction between teachers in public schools and private citizens owning a business in the state doesn't have a difference you've laid out.
If the state's job is not policing private citizens' bigotry, why is it any less tyrannical busybodying to police individual teachers' pedogeological choices? What is the functional reason a state is better positioned to regulate one than the other?
This is not what the law should be, this is why the right policy is different.
It might not be against the law for public employees to campaign for BLM or tranny "rights" in their classrooms, but then it ought to be. The distinction between what they are getting paid to do and what someone does in his private business may be lost on you, but it's not lost on me.
You mean direct regulation by the State of the State's own employees while they're on the job? Yup, that is totally fine.
Why is the state better situated to do one well versus the other?
The same reason the state taking my money in taxes is sometimes different than your stealing it from me.
That's just your statement of ideology. It's not a reason.
So a liiiiiitttttlllle bit of bigotry is OK.
In short, yes.
Strict scrutiny requires that a law address a compelling state interest. In cases of widespread bigotry where it results in a group being entirely shut out of a market there may be a compelling interest that doesn't necessarily exist when there are only a small number of objectors, particularly when there are other service providers who are more than happy to design the website.
Would that apply to places where there are no other bakeries (or wedding venues, or whatever)? For example, would it be acceptable (legally speaking) to discriminate in Denver, where there are other bakeries that will provide the wedding cake, but not in Theocratic Village, Idaho (population: 800) where there is only one bakery?
Why would you think default's test inapplicable?
First we would need to determine if there is a compelling state interest in ensuring access to wedding cakes (or wedding websites, venues, etc) at all.
For the sake of argument let's say there is. In that case then yes, the anti discrimination law would be applicable in Theocratic Village, ID, but not in Denver. I believe such laws should apply on a case-by-case basis.
It does however then raise another question. Let's say the one bakery in Theocratic Village decides to close up shop rather than bake for same sex weddings, leaving zero bakeries. Is the government now compelled to set up a publicly-funded bakery there (due to the compelling interest in ensuring access to wedding cakes). I think not, so that would mean the answer to the initial question is no, that there is no compelling interest in ensuring access to bespoke baked goods at all.
Wedding venues, on the other hand, (to the extent a venue is merely the location where the marriage is performed) does have a publicly-funded option: The nearest courthouse.
Thank you for answering my questions.
"there is no compelling interest in ensuring access to bespoke baked goods at all."
Is it about bakeries and/or cakes at all? Or is the government interest about preventing bias-based exclusion of citizens in commerce? I would think the latter, but is that the legal foundation of public accommodation laws? Or do they come from somewhere else?
I'm not saying that you're descriptively wrong about the compelling state interest in play: it's pretty obvious that making it possible for people to buy groceries is important while making it possible for people to buy wedding cake is not. And it's also pretty obvious that making it possible for people to shop at the one store in town that sells things is more important than making it possible for people to shop at one of 20 stores in town that sells those things.
But… courts are not going to parse these laws that way. They are not going to decide on a case-by-case basis whether there's a compelling interest in anti-discrimination law's enforcement.
Bigots have rights, too.
But not the right to avoid being recognized as bigots, or the right to have others pretend a cloak of religion improves bigotry or transforms that bigotry into anything other than bigotry.
Thanks Jerry,
not gonna say Pediophiles have rights to though, that's a bridge too far. Is your commutation "Package" coming out (get it? "Coming out"?) today? Figure Stuttering John Fetterman will do it on a Friday afternoon, probably December 23, that's when alot of pardons/commutations are granted, good luck!!!
Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno were both registered Republicans, backwater conservatives, and deplorable stains on modern America.
Good one, make sure that's in your Commutation "Package"
Leave out the photos of your "Package"
Oh good grief. One can harbor no ill-will towards gay people without wanting to use one’s creative energy to facilitate a SSM. You are like some trans ex-dude trying to get a lesbian to sleep with him/her by saying that she is transphobic because she doesn’t want a penis in her.
By the by, my guess is that a gay person being assaulted for being gay would much rather have me around than you, as I would defend them from an assault (I have defended complete strangers from assaults on Chicago’s subway.,)
1: Why do you live in Chicago?, or if you don't live there, or even if you do,
2: Why do you ride the Subway in Chicago? Might as well put on a Klan robe, a MAGA hat, and carry a noose, and walk though Southside Chicago
I mean, that's theoretically possible — it doesn't violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics or anything — but, I mean, come on. No. Why would a business owner turn away a class of business if there were no animus?
Or are you just trying to make a love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin argument?
Because they don't like peoples with No Shirts, No Shirts, No Dykes!
Don't get the last one, who doesn't like having a couple of Dykes around?
What's wrong with animus towards fags who insist on being a PITA? (Such as the prospective ones who would insist this web designer has to accept work she doesn't want to do?)
Absotulutely nothing, being a PITA is what got Cicero's hands nailed to the door of the Senate.
An individual bearing animus against a disfavored class of people is not someone else's concern. A government enacting legislation based solely upon collective animus toward that group, however, is an equal protection violation. Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996).
We're talking about an *individual* web designer here.
What's wrong with you?
Nothing, apart from some age-appropriate aches and pains.
So, what's wrong with YOU?
Don't forget your homophobia and a wicked case of entitlement. Probably some moderate-to-significant anger management issues, too.
What is wrong with this white, male blog that causes it to attract and flatter such a remarkable concentration of bigots of all stripes?
Spoiler: It's the conservatism.
Carry on, clingers.
I'M not a "conservative". You, on the other hand, ARE a tedious loon.
Hey, Jerry is responsible for developing some of the best Linebackers in College and Pro football history.
You love Trump and hate liberals.
What do you call yourself?
" I’M not a “conservative”. "
That is possible. Not all disaffected, bigoted, obsolete, ready-for-replacement, Republican culture war casualties are conservative.
Some are just comprehensive misfits.
I don't support SSM. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against people who happen to be in one. I don't support swinging either.
Don't knock it till you've tried it
By the by, my guess is that a gay person being assaulted for being gay would much rather have me around than you, as I would defend them from an assault.
Oh wow, we got an Internet badass here.
What are your thoughts about denying black people the vote? Could you do that without animus?
Since that is State Action, then no. And anyway, animus has nothing to do with it.
Guess what a marriage is, Bored.
You're using animus in the legal way again. Call it ill-will if it keeps you from doing that.
A marriage IS state action to the extent that recognizing as a matter of law.
How one announces and celebrates it is not. People got married for thousands of years without marriage websites. Whether a particular designer creates a marriage website is not state action. Same for making a wedding cake or driving a limo, for that matter.
So gays can get married, just not via a marriage.
No, Bored. Being against gay marriage is about the same as being against blacks voting - both are a private person being against state action.
Not even close.
I notice your argument didn’t appear in your comment. Surely you have one?
Being against gay marriage is about the same as being against 110% tax rates - both are a private person being against state action.
You are a deplorable bigot, Michael P. I will celebrate your replacement.
The Volokh Conspirators will miss you. You are their target audience.
And so, Michael, is being against blacks voting.
Glad we agree.
But gay brothers (or sisters) can't marry each other, or Hetero brothers/sisters so you're not for ALL marriages, just the Politically Correct ones.
Or show I'm an A-hole, and you're for sibling marriage.
Frank
You'd guess wrong.
But that's just me, speaking for myself as a gay person. I'd rather have someone around that understands how institutional discrimination increases the likelihood of me getting bashed in the first place.
it's more wearing women's clothes in public
He said he was gay, not a drag queen. Do you even understand that they aren't the same thing, or do you just have a single category called "people who don't deserve to be treated decently" that you put all those you hate into?
How well do protected classes do in regimes that suppress free speech?
Depends. How well are LGBT Russians doing? (Badly) But they're not protected in Russia. So if you mean classes protected by the authoritarian government restricting free speech? Probably pretty well.
Conservatives do quite well at the Volokh Conspiracy, whose viewpoint-driven censorship slants heavily in the favor of right-wingers.
What about a rule that the designer must either do the job OR find a sub-contractor to do it? The latter is not expressive activity.
Apparently Homos never learned the rule about not fucking with the people who prepare your food. Who would want to eat anything prepared by someone forced to?? I get enough pubic hair in my diet from just going to McDonalds without fucking with anybody.
Frank "where does your Fumunda Cheese come from?"
And the other side of that -- well remember the Diet Pepsi cans that allegedly had needles in them back in 1993?
Absent an ironclad blanket waiver of liability, I wouldn't want to prepare food (or even do an event) for someone who believed that I didn't like them because who knows what they might claim? And there is always the accidental mistake that anyone can legitimately make, that might not even be my fault. (E.g. some truckdriver leaving something perishable out in the sun for a few hours and then delivering it to me cold -- *I* didn't know he did that...)
"object to same-sex marriages"--Hmmm. More like don't want to facilitate them. Don't know that they are actively trying to stop them, which is what "object" connotes. I don't condone lots of things that I don't object to.
These are some pretty thinly sliced definitions of object versus don't condone.
I know the idea of making distinctions is foreign to you, but it's something non-jackasses do all the time.
What is something you don't condone but also don't object to?
Idolatry, adultery, picking one's nose. (If "object" means trying to stop, as rloquitur defines it.)
Now we're back to object being an overtuned definition.
Things I don’t condone but also don’t object to (that is, things I won’t encourage but also won’t try to stop you from doing):
– Drinking alcohol or doing drugs (so long as you don’t drive or do other things that make you a hazard to others while you’re under the influence)
– Expressing political opinions that disagree with mine
– Driving faster than the posted speed limit but within the design limits of the road
– Farting in public (though I may make an exception for elevators)
– Chewing with your mouth open
– Getting a tattoo (no matter how good it looks today, I guarantee it will look a lot less good when you’re 60, saggy and gray)
– Committing suicide
A lot of those are quite notable as things you don't condone.
The one that jumped out to me - you don't condone people disagreeing with you on politics?!
That's a strange construction but you left out the important part:
"but also don’t object to ".
That’s not the headliner, the not condoning stuff like drinking is.
Lotsa judgement here.
Why would I condone (that is, encourage) that? I'd much rather that you agreed with me. I know that you don't. And I'm not about to say that you can't do it. But I'm going to encourage you to agree me through discussion and persuasion?
What, exactly, do you think "condone" means?
Condone does not mean encourage. It means refraining from action regarding behavior you think immoral. ("accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue")
This explains why I was confused.
That is actually not a bad list, Rossami. I figure the design limits of the road are ~20% above the stated speed limit? That is my informal mental rule of thumb when I am driving.
The farting in the elevator though is definitely an exception. Trust me on this one Rossami, just don't ask me how I know. 🙂
"What is something you don’t condone but also don’t object to?"
Homos buggering each other while not drawing my attention to their Pride in doing it.
I dunno, your comments seem pretty flamboyant to me...
This is a lawsuit funded by the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), a right-wing, anti-LGBT legal team that *do* "object" to extension of civil rights to LGBT Americans.
They:
1. support the recriminalization of same-sex sexual intimacy (sodomy laws)
2. support prohibiting transgender people from changing their identification documents unless they have undergone genital surgery and are sterilized
3. link homosexuality to pedophilia
4. still cling to the whole "homosexual agenda" nonsense
5. oppose LGBT rights bills at all levels of government
But perhaps 303 Creative just chose the wrong dog and we shouldn't judge her for the fleas? Except that she filed this lawsuit prior to providing services and without having a customer file a complaint. So I think her fleas got with the ADF's fleas and planned this scratching party together.
The Alliance Defending Freedom is a bunch of superstitious right-wing bigots . . . and a favorite of the white, male, bigot-friendly Volokh Conspiracy.
Sure. If it cuts everyone.
So far the SCOTUS has shown no appetite for such.
What does that mean? Gay people have First Amendment rights like anyone else.
If a gay web designer refuses to do a website for a religious couple whose religion is known to object to SSM, and indeed considers SSS to be a sin, then yes, he should be allowed to do so. They can find another designer.
"there have been hundreds of thousands of same-sex weddings in the United States."
Got a basis for that?
That the SCOTUS has been grappling with these cases for over a decade now, and multiple times has telegraphed that it's looking for a way to say "sure, refuse services to queers, we don't mind", but keeps stopping short of that because they haven't found a way to say "sure, refuse services to queers" without also saying "sure, refuse services to Blacks".
Look at Masterpiece, read the transcript of oral arguments. There was a clear majority that was chill with Phillips telling queers to fuck-off. What there was not, and this is the reason why he won narrowly instead of broadly, was a majority that was chill with Phillips telling Jews to fuck-off.
So my stance on this is very simple: if the SCOTUS says it's fine for 303 to put up a "no gays allowed" sign, then it had damn well better be equally fine for anyone else to put up a "no Catholics allowed" sign. If it's not (and currently that "it's not" is status quo in all 50 states), then it isn't "cutting both ways".
How unfortunate for you that this case isn't about putting up a "no gays allowed sign", otherwise you attack wouldn't be so blatantly false.
The case is about whether someone should be forced to produce a website that condones homosexual marriages, no matter who is requesting it. And, to straighten your hypothetical back into reality, whether someone should be forced to produce a website that condones Catholicism, no matter who is requesting it.
"Protected class" is just another way of saying, "Some animals are more equal than others". Or maybe just, "sucks to be you!"
Would you trade places with a black person? You know, if they are so overly protected by the law?
Do I get to pick the black person?
Because the truth of the matter is that, with my job qualifications, I'd get paid a LOT more if I were black; Checking that box pays. And my son would get discriminated in favor of, not against, when he applied for college.
That's a remarkable opinion. And a rare one.
Of course, most people think the Equal Protection Clause, as understood both now and when it was drafted, was a good thing.
Being Charles Barkley, Kanye, or Ice-T would be great
even Snoop-Doog
Irony: the RFRA is being used as a Christians get out of anti-discrimination jail free card. Brett posts the one Animal Farm quote that describes this the best.
That whole freedom of religion thing in the 1A makes Christians a protected class too, right? Christians like the owner of 303 Creative and the legal firm funding every anti-gay lawsuit it can find.
As I have said before. I wonder what will happen when a twenty-first century Ollie McClung files suit based on the RFRA challenging public accommodations provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, claiming that his deity tells hm that serving black and white customers together in the dining room of his barbecue joint is an abomination. (Not a novel claim. See Newman v. Piggie Park Enterprises, Inc., 377 F.2d 433, 438 (4th Cir. 1967) (Winter, J., concurring), aff'd 390 U.S. 400 (1968)) I suppose that the Attorney General would then have to negate the contention that allowing service of all races at the takeout window is an acceptable, less restrictive option.
There are a number of churches for white nationalists, KKK, and neo-nazis that do teach these sorts of things. (see: World Church of the Creator as an example.) It would be a "legitimate" belief for them to withhold services for multi-racial or Jewish customers. That may eventually happen, but unlike 303 Creative, there isn't a well-funded, high-powered legal team out there looking for lawsuits to send up to the Supreme Court in the hopes that one of them might actually hurt the people they hate. Most (openly*) racist churches are poorly funded and pushed to the fringes of society.
However, with the number of church-going Americans falling, especially in the 30yo and under crowd, we could see a belief-based argument targeting Christians for discrimination soon enough.
* The LDS church is well-funded and not openly racist. Bob Jones university and associated churches are less openly racist these days.
You should know that while it's only the same half-dozen non-discrimination cases that include gay folk that get the press coverage, there are literally hundreds of non-discrimination cases every year that don't get any at all. And those cases have nothing to do with queer people.
These laws are only controversial when they cover queer people. In all other cases they don't make the news and don't make it to SCOTUS.
This comment of yours is just another way of saying "I don't understand the law." Which animals do you think are "more equal"?
Once we strip away all the culture-war grandstanding and claims of supporting enlightened free thought over Dark-Age superstition, what we find is that the debate over the Colorado law is a debate over the nature of private property. One group in this case advocates for an expansion of private property rights, while the other side argues for increased government regulation of private businesses and enterprises.
Regardless of what groups end up being favored, the effect of any anti-discrimination law is to curtail the freedom of the owner and to increase the size and scope of government’s coercive power over the lives and livelihoods of property owners.
Exclusion Is a Foundation of Private Property!!
Is that all you could come up with for the effect?
That same business owner can fund and equip their business without going through extra hurdles to find a bank and suppliers that match their race or religion. They benefit from the social compact these laws create. And let's not kid ourselves, the first Amendment creates the first protected class--religion. Even if all the non-discrimination laws were abolished, we'd still have religion as a protected class.
Religious protections in 1A are FROM government not protection BY government.
Huh. So if the government isn't the one doing the protecting, who is?
Don't be absurd.
While the ADF is 100% against any non-discrimination law that includes sexual orientation or gender identity, they are 100% okay with the rest.
Trying to stretch this into a higher principle is to fundamentally misunderstand their well-documented and consistent motivations.
How many Homos ever caught the Hiv-ie from a Cake Shop??? (hmm, lotta wierdo's out there, forget it)
How many peoples will catch the Hiv-ie from HIV+ Blood Donors now that the Red Cross is allowing um,,, HIV+ Peoples to donate blood???
If I didn't know how the Judicial Bread is currently buttered, I wouldn't want to be affiliated with the Red Cross right now, not their fault they have to take HIV + Blood, but the Group allowing it has "Sovereign Immunity", so they're the next target.
Frank "Positive, I'm AB Negative"
Do any of the Volokh Conspirators possess the character and introspection necessary to generate reflection concerning why this blog attracts so many bigots who call gays "homos," denigrate Blacks, love this blog's regular use of vile racial slurs, etc.?
Anyone?
Guess not.
are you really a Lawyer?? I mean even one from a Dum-fuck Egypt "Klinger" School?? Cause I know just from watching Perry Mason since 5th grade, any lawyer worth his sack learns in first year Contracts with Kingsfield,
"Don't ask questions you don't already know the answers to"
and the temporal relationship (14hrs) of your post, to your reply indicates you didn't, of course you don't get Kingsfield at Jerry Sandusky School of Law and Linebacking,
That's enough Bee-otch Slapping for one day,
Frank "Unprepared again, Mis-tuh San-duh-ski???"
There is no objective evidence of any need to protect gay people in the public marketplace, much less a "very real need". The vast majority of merchants are more than willing to take your money. And mine. And anyone else's.
You don't think attempts to overturn these kinds of laws, which are backed by a desire to withhold services, are objective evidence?
One of the ways Jim Crow worked was by having suppliers refuse to supply businesses that didn't exclude black customers. Even if a business owner is willing to take gay dollars, if their suppliers would drop them and place their business at risk, they might be willing to exclude gay customers who likely make up a small fraction of their business. And, of course, the smaller the town, the fewer alternatives exist.
Freedom to do something is also Freedom not to do something, pretty sure William G Buckley said that (or should have)
No, they are not objective evidence. They're not really evidence of anything.
And your Jim Crow example shows just how strained your claim is. No suppliers are making those kinds of threats today. No merchants selling to gays are being subjected to boycotts. No examples, even in the smallest of small towns, have been found of gays unable to someone to decorate the cake that will celebrate their wedding.
Some people are bigoted and say mean things. They say mean things about me, too. Grow up and deal with it.
And maybe think about the long-term consequences of a government with the power to stop bigots from saying mean things. What will you do when they arbitrarily decides that you are the one saying mean things?
People and organization are spending a lot of money to be able to discriminate.
I'm not sure it means we'll have immediate segregation, but the libertarian take that it's super rare and should be ignored belies a lot of evidence.
I mean look at this comentariat. There are about half a dozen here that want to ban anal sex!
What an odd response. How did you get from "I won't sell you a product" to "saying mean things?" Inability to get a pastry or a web page is hardly a life-defining issue but it is adjacent to not being able to acquire housing, food, or medical care.
And, as I noted early in the thread, I support 303 Creative's right to decline making custom sites for LGBT weddings. So maybe stop with the patronizing?
Cool if true, but utterly irrelevant.
Simply put, that's not the standard.
I think the distinction should be on whether the business is offering to create expressive "speech" (art, whatever), or just a commodity product/service. Custom cabinetry, for example, might be creative and fitted to each customer's requirements, but it's not "speech". Paintings, celebratory videos, and so forth may be (or not) depending on the circumstances. I don't think you can craft a rule that conclusively resolves every situation in advance.
Once it was agreed that homosexuals could obtain protected status as homosexuals, (as opposed to as human beings like American blacks), we guaranteed an endless line of cases like the one discussed here. The number of protected groups continues to grow, witness efforts now to add those who claim to be “transgender” to the list of protected classes under Title IX. Pretty soon there will be no one left that an employer can not hire or a business not serve!
Ending discrimination against blacks was a simple process and everyone has come to understand why it needed to be done, but the arguments in that case have been adopted by those who claim to represent other identifiable groups and they don't have the same resonance. Women for example have been discriminated against in many ways but that men and women are different and have different needs and desires makes their case more complicated.
Just saying.
" Ending discrimination against blacks was a simple process and everyone has come to understand why it needed to be done, "
Those are remarkably dumb assertions, even for a clinger.
If a gay man walked up and said "I want to hire you to design this very special website for my best friend and his heterosexual wedding", what would 303 do?
If a straight man walked up and said "I want to hire you to design this very special website for my best friend and his homosexual wedding", what would 303 do?
Or what if a gay man walked up and said he was getting married to a woman for tax purposes?
The status-behavior conflation really doesn't withstand a whole lot of scrutiny.
Quoting from Colorado's lawyer during oral arguments, "it doesn't matter whose credit card is used for that transaction." The discrimination is against the couple getting married.
Your example of a marriage of convenience is de minimis.