The Volokh Conspiracy
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Did the Fourteenth Amendment Alter the Meaning of the Second Amendment?
1791, not 1868, is the key date for determining the original understanding of the Second Amendment.
When proposing the Fourteenth Amendment to Congress in 1866, Senator Jacob Howard referred to "the personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as freedom of speech and of the press; … the right to keep and bear arms…." He averred that "the great object" of the amendment was "to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees." The design was not to change the nature of the rights, but to prevent the states from violating them.
The Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, and the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868. The Supreme Court stated in D.C. v. Heller (2008) and repeated this year in N.Y. York State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen: "Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them." So do we look for that understanding in 1791 or in 1868?
The simple answer would be that the substantive nature of the right is defined by reference to its origins in 1791, while the understanding that it's a fundamental right intended to be applied to the states would be found in 1868. But litigation-driven, preconceived outcomes are at work, few firearm restrictions existed at the Founding but more were adopted in the decades after the Fourteenth Amendment, and the incentive thus exists for opponents of the right to keep and bear arms to root for 1868 as the crucial date in order to find historical analogues to current restrictive laws.
Bruen held that "when the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct." To justify a regulation, the government "must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation."
"In the aftermath of the Civil War, there was an outpouring of discussion of the Second Amendment in Congress and in public discourse, as people debated whether and how to secure constitutional rights for newly free slaves," stated Heller, citing this author's Freedmen, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Right to Bear Arms. However, the Court continued, "those discussions took place 75 years after the ratification of the Second Amendment," and thus "they do not provide as much insight into its original meaning as earlier sources."
In deciding that the Second Amendment applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court in McDonald v. Chicago (2010) focused not on the meaning of the right, but on its fundamental character, both at the Founding and during Reconstruction. The Court found particularly instructive the Freedmen's Bureau Act of 1866, which secured to all citizens without regard to race "the right … to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings" concerning "personal liberty" and "personal security," "including the constitutional right to bear arms…." One can hear echoes of Blackstone in those concepts, handed down by the Founders.
The object was thus to extend the right to all citizens, not to change the nature of the right. As McDonald explained, Bill of Rights guarantees incorporated under the Fourteenth Amendment are enforced against the states "according to the same standards that protect those personal rights against federal encroachment." Just as the meaning of the rights to free speech and against unreasonable search and seizure are found in the understanding of 1791, so is the meaning of the right to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court has never found that the primary meaning of any provision of the Bill of Rights is to be determined by how it was understood in 1868.
As Bruen remarked, "when it comes to interpreting the Constitution, not all history is created equal," and further, "to the extent later history contradicts what the text says, the text controls." The Court acknowledged "an ongoing scholarly debate on whether courts should primarily rely on the prevailing understanding of an individual right when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868 when defining its scope," but saw no need to address the issue because "the public understanding of the right to keep and bear arms in both 1791 and 1868 was, for all relevant purposes, the same with respect to public carry."
The sources cited for that putative debate—a pre-Heller book by Prof. Akhil Amar and a pre-Bruen essay by Prof. Kurt Lash—fail to make a convincing case that the meaning of the Bill of Rights changed in1868. First, its guarantees against federal violation have always been applicable since its ratification in 1791, and it would be incongruous to have a different Bill of Rights applicable to the states. Second, Supreme Court precedent has always looked to the 1791 understanding as the crucial period for the meaning of the guarantees, and a contrary rule invented for the Second Amendment has no basis in those precedents. Third, advocates of the 1868 theory rely on the privileges-or-immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, but the Court has never relied on that clause for incorporation. And fourth, there is no indication that anyone at the time thought that this is what the Fourteenth Amendment would accomplish, and there is nothing in the text of the Amendment to support it, either.
For a detailed analysis of the above controversy, see Mark W. Smith, "Attention Originalists: The Second Amendment was adopted in 1791, not 1868," just published in Harv. J.L. & Pub. Pol'y Per Curiam, and the longer version in SSRN. It argues that only historical analogues from the Founding may be used to determine the meaning and scope of the Second Amendment, and that post-Civil War historical analogues may not undercut or contradict 1791 protections, but may only confirm them.
As to "the slight uptick in gun regulation during the late-19th century," mostly in the Western Territories, the Bruen Court found that such evidence "cannot provide much insight into the meaning of the Second Amendment when it contradicts earlier evidence." Moreover, Bruen continued, such localized restrictions could not overcome the broad evidence elsewhere of public carry, they were rarely subjected to judicial scrutiny, and they were short-lived.
Desperate to uphold bans, government defendants are appealing to all kinds of non-analogous outliers in their briefs. One is the short-lived bans on sale of Bowie knives in a tiny handful of states, and that's supposed to be analogous to today's bans on possession of semiauto rifles and standard magazines. Such bans are in no way analogous to today's prohibitions on commonly-possessed firearms. Regarding the citation to post-Fourteenth Amendment outliers by D.C. to justify its rifle ban, then Judge Kavanaugh referred in his dissent in Heller II (D.C. Cir. 2011) to "the paucity of precedent sustaining bans comparable to those at issue here and in Heller."
In short, there is only one Second Amendment. It means what it meant in 1791. Although analysis of attitudes in 1868 is relevant to determining whether the Second Amendment is incorporated, that does not change the fact that what was incorporated was the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms. Post-1868 evidence cannot be used to contradict that original understanding.
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" It means what it meant in 1791. "
Your muskets are protected, clingers!
I suppose your movable type printing presses are as well.
Our contemporary left has no problem with censorship, including by private actors - it's all a big nothingburger. Until of course they are the ones being censored.
Florida literally and explicitly punished a private corporation because they didn't like its political speech.
And Texas literally passed a law dictating how social media companies could moderate their own platforms.
Ah, but when the right do it, it's entirely different because reasons.
Recall the Privacy of Firearm Owners Act (later mostly struck down) as another attempt by Florida to restrict freedom of speech?
The "Docs vs. Glocks" law, right? I remember that one.
Yup. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/17/515764335/court-strikes-down-florida-law-barring-doctors-from-discussing-guns-with-patient
"Florida literally and explicitly punished a private corporation because they didn’t like its political speech."
No, a private corporation that was given special extra-legal privileges that other corporations weren't essentially attempted a coup against the state, at which point people noticed that said private corporation had lots of special privileges (including the privilege to install a nuclear reactor) and they said unfair! and the state eliminated these special extra-legal privileges.
What attempted coup against the state? You mean when Disney had donated something like half a million to Ron DeSantis's SuperPAC over the previous three years? Or how it got DeSantis aides to be sure that legislatures made an exception for theme park owners from Florida's own attempt at imposing its will on social media?
The Florida GOP has been giving special breaks and privileges to big corporate interests in the state for decades. Theme parks are just one of them. There's also "Big Sugar" and other ag interests, resort hotel chains, and more.
And to say that people in Florida only noticed that Disney had a special district when DeSantis went after them for belatedly voicing opposition to the Parental Rights Act (aka "Don't Say Gay" by its critics) is hilariously wrong. The people living within that district certainly knew that. As did the governments of the two counties that otherwise would have to provide services there. Some people will still vote Republican despite all of their crony capitalism, but no one has any illusions about these politicians that pays at least some attention to what is really going on.
Don't forget the Volokh Conspiracy's banishment of commenters who make fun of conservatives, and censorship of certain words (when used to criticize conservatives).
Yet you have no issue states "literally" passing law dictating how restaurants, stores, bakers, and photographers should run their businesses.
“Some of the documents that [EFF] previously received through FOIA suggested that all major manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret agreement with governments to ensure that the output of those printers is forensically traceable.”
https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots
The Rev might want to outlaw movable type. Social credit scores don’t compile themselves.
So my cannon filled with grapeshot is as well?
Hint: I don't even want to *think* about what that would do to a crowded venue. And as a shotgun fired in a dorm room (i.e. suicide) will inevitably blow out the window (one of the fun things you learn in student affairs), the overpressure of a cannon fired into a confined space (i.e. building) would do serious damage to both the structure and the people inside -- you wouldn't even have to be hit by a piece of grapeshot.
[Cringe....]
But no one who matters actually thinks of this stuff when passing judgement. They know the answer, and need no further input.
For what it is worth, the Critical Race Theorists argued that the 14th Amendment had REPEALED the First Amendment's protection of speech.
Now this was 30 years ago, I'm not sure what they are arguing now, but (then) they seriously believed this.
The militia world of 1791 no longer exists.
So? What world change alters fundamental individual rights? Which pre-date any constitution (inalienable) and a written constitution recognizes but does not establish. Rights do not exist at the sufferance of any government. And that’s also why “economic” (wealth transfers) rights are not a thing.
The newspaper world has changed since 1791. Does that mean the 1A no longer works?
(Again, “militia”, or even “well-regulated” doesn’t mean what you and your fellow travelers want it to mean to obtain your policy preference outcome.)
Some parts of the Constitution are dead letters because they dealt with worlds that no longer exist. Another is the power of Congress to grant "letters of Marque and Reprisal". Nations don't do that any more. But if there was a bounty hunter lobby as well funded as the gun lobby, by now they would have concocted some type of quasi-military activity that complied with international law and would be analogous enough to the Marque and Reprisal power so that Congress could send them a-huntin'.
"Nations don’t do that any more."
Malicious private-sector coders commonly conduct espionage, steal intellectual property, and sabotage information systems of other governments or their industries, to advance the interests of their countries. Arguably, acts of war perpetrated by non-state actors with the approval and even payment and direction of their states.
I believe you mean "The walls are finally closing on on the militia world of 1791!"
You know that the same bullshit reasoning could be used to argue that our electronic communications are subject to random government search with no probable cause. I mean, times have changed - electronic communications didn’t exist when 4A was written so they’re not covered.
Our persons, houses, papers, and effects (I.e. property) are covered, but that’s all.
Lame arguments can be used to screw up all kinds of things.
I do think important information that the arms of today bear essentially no relation to the arms in the Founders’ era. Like, you couldn’t imagine them back then.
Which is why I think you need the 9A in conjunction with the 2A and use the right to self defense as the main lodestone of these debates.
The originalist turn of 2A jurisprudence is somewhat idiosyncratic to this moment. As the OP seems to realize.
"I do think important information that the arms of today bear essentially no relation to the arms in the Founders’ era. Like, you couldn’t imagine them back then."
That doesn't prove that "arms" means "arms we could use in 1791."
"Which is why I think you need the 9A in conjunction with the 2A and use the right to self defense as the main lodestone of these debates."
Now that's a point I hadn't sufficiently considered, and it shows that you can get insights even off of Internet comment boards.
Yes, anyone who wants the government to strip people of the means of defense will have to show that self-defense is *not* a right retained by the people or a privilege/immunity of citizenship.
Here is Blackstone (or should I say Blackftone):
"THE defence of one's felf, or the mutual and reciprocal defence of fuch as ftand in the relations of hufband and wife, parent and child, mafter and fervant. In thefe cafes, if the party himfelf, or any of thefe his relations, be forcibly attacked in his perfon or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force; and the breach of the peace, which happens, is chargeable upon him only who began the affrayd . For the law, in this cafe, refpects the paffioins of the human mind; and (when external violence is offered to a man himfelf, or thofe to whom he bears a near connection) makes it lawful in him to do himfelf that immediate juftice, to which he is prompted by nature, and which no prudential motives are ftrong enough to reftrain. It confiders that the future procefs of law is by no means an adequate remedy for injuries accompanied with force; fince it is impoffible to fay, to what wanton lenghs of reapine or cruelty outrages of this fort might be carried, unlefs it were permitted a man immediately to oppofe one violence with another. Self-defence therefore as it is juftly called the primary law of nature, fo it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away be the law of fociety. In the Englifh law particularly it is held an excufe for breaches of the peace, nay even for homicide itfelf: but care muft be taken that the refiftance does not exceed the bounds of mere defence and prevention; for then the defender would himflef become an aggreffor."
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk3ch1.asp
That doesn’t prove that “arms” means “arms we could use in 1791.”
I note that Scalia opined that “cruel and unusual” should be interpreted to mean whatever was cruel and unusual in 1791, but curiously he did not extend that reasoning to arms.
I think it’s fairly obvious that as the FFs were not idiots, in general, and would have been aware of technological change, their not restricting “arms” to “ꭍuch Armes as are in preꭍent Uꭍe”, means that “arms” should not be restricted to 1791 weaponry.
Scalia's problem was that he thought (IIRC) that if you could hang someone for murder you could hang them for smoking a joint.
The term "usual" limits "cruel" - a punishment may be cruel but if it was known to the common law (e. g., death by hanging for felony) then the 8th Am would allow it.
My thesis is about general intent. And how it is impossible to project.
Sure, you can't use original intent for everything. Sometimes the language is clear. Sometimes it's unclear but the Founders were divided on the meaning (e. g., Presidential removal power).
I would look to founding-era practices only if they reflected a *consensus* about the meaning of particular words or concepts ("jury," "habeas corpus," right to self-defense). Deviating from that consensus, especially in the name of a living, breathing Constitution, ought only to be done by an amendment imho.
If there was no consensus, then like Vermeule and his crowd suggest, look to the background principles of law - though not the way Vermeule does it (a federal police power? Please. That's his nationalistic/administrative state prejudices coming through). Obviously, that's subject to error, but so's life.
Hey Margrave, as antique as your title may be, those are not antique, "f" characters in Blackstone, they are antique, "s" characters. In other words, for accuracy just spell it like modern English.
Yup. There were three cases - capital "S" (which was also the integral symbol, where it stood for "sum"), small "s", which looked like a lower case "f" lacking the horizontal stroke, and a terminal "s", only used at the end of a word, which looked like our general lower-case "s". Also, in Blackstone's day, nouns were commonly capitalised (as with German to the present day.
FWIW I couldn't find an old lower-case "S" quickly enough in charmap so I used the "ꭍ", hopefully retaining the jocular Effeckte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
Hey Lathrop, those elevated comma-looking characters are quotation marks, and they indicate that someone else provided the words within. They're not actually antique comma punctuation.
That’s how they gave it in the Avalon site, and Avalon is maintained by Yale Law School. Did *you* go to Yale?
If they want to print it as “f,” then I aſſume they know what they’re doing.
While you're at it, the Constitution extends judicial power to "cafes and controverfies". Starbucks matters (it's a cafe, right?) automatically get a hearing. The Supreme Court can rule on whether "pumpkin spice" is a decent cup of java or not.
"I do think important information that the arms of today bear essentially no relation to the arms in the Founders’ era. Like, you couldn’t imagine them back then."
Our means of publishing and communicating bear far less relation to the means of doing so back then. Like, you REALLY couldn't imagine them back then.
Compared to that, our guns are practically the same as then. Some explosive material, ignition and a projectile. Simple.
The arms of today are very similar in their basic function and use, too. Just a little faster and more accurate, and longer range. But not that different at all, compared to how different publishing and communicating is.
Yeah, originalism is dumb across a bunch of amendments!
Coming out against free speech too now! Nice.
This is foolish ignorance, and a great disservice to the people in the Founding era.
Repeating rifles and pistols had existed for decades in 1791, and even some primitive automatic weapons had been created.
Artillery with explosive shells had been around for centuries, as had explosive warhead rockets.
Large explosive devices had been in use for a long time, and successful use of devices like torpedoes were just around the corner (used in the War of 1812).
The Founders were well educated, and science was much more progressed in 1791 than you seem to think. In addition to early forms of almost all modern weapons, things like steam engines and internal combustion engines were being developed. So was anesthesia (morphine made commercial in 1804, ether 20 years later). Coulomb's Law or Gauss's Law: Essential equations in electromagnetism, published in the 1770s and '80s.
Even fundamental physics like the wave theory of light or proving atomic theory was ongoing - both published in the first decade of the 1800s.
To suggest that modern guns are somehow "unimaginable" to the Founders says a lot more about your ignorance of that time than it does about the Founders ability to imagine what their laws might mean in combination with technology.
True. Also they were not historical ignoramuses.
They were well aware of the fact that a few centuries back "arms" would have referred to bows and arrows, pikes, swords, shields and so on. Not firearms. And that as new forms of arms were invented and brought into use they naturally joined the class of objects described by the same old word - "arms."
"Arms" is not, and was not in 1791, a word describing a closed class of objects. It is a word describing an open class of objects. The Founders were familiar not only with the 1791 members of the class of objects described by "arms", but also with the fact that the word they chose to use was open to new objects. For they knew from their historical knowledge that new objects had joined the class of "arms."
There is a difference between the meaning of a word, and the items that are currently understood to be referred to by the word. To flog this already very dead horse :
The 2022 original meaning of "coin" is not limited to coins circulated in 2022 or before. It includes coins that may be newly designed and circulated in the future. A 2040 coin is, though it is unknown to us 2022ers, within the original 2022 meaning of the word "coin."
The 2022 meaning of "medicines" is not limited to medicines invented in 2022 and before. Later medicines are included.
OK this is now dead horse abuse.
"Like, you couldn’t imagine them back then."
Could they imagine movies, telephones, internet, radio, TV?
tell that to Ukraine, Poland, Finland, Israel, Sweden, Taiwan, South Korea, ... or Alaska, all of which are very close to major problem countries.
"The militia world of 1791 no longer exists."
Yes and no. Indian raids and Canadian invasions don't seem very likely, but the 'make sure our government can't go rogue' part is applicable as long as you have governments.
(for the record, I also wish we added a little more organization to the militia ... that would have been pretty helpful post-Katrina, for example)
And that is relevant because...
It’s the purpose of the Amendment.
And how does this purpose (strictly justification) affect the meaning of the text ?
If you were a lawyer you would be familiar with the rules of construction. Purpose is everything. Words are construed according to the purpose of the provision.
Nonsense.
A legal provision is construed in accordance with its meaning. Only if all attempts to identify the meaning by reference to the text itself are unavailing is it permissible to start guessing at the supposed purpose.
In this case, the text is quite clear and it is unnecessary to guess at a purpose. And even less necessary to confuse an express justification with a supposed purpose.
You do notice the absence of the word "if" in the 2nd amendment, right? The amendment doesn't make the right contingent on a militia being necessary, it states that a militia is necessary.
As a constitutional matter, this precludes the judiciary from proceeding on the contrary assumption, no matter what judges may personally believe. Their oaths of office require them to set their personal beliefs aside on this matter.
But, again, the amendment doesn't make the right contingent on the claim being true, it just offers the claim as a reason for the command to respect the right.
Time to point out again that the rights are natural rights, (allegedly) guaranteed by the US Constitution, not actually rights granted by the US Constitution.
I'll believe in "natural rights" when they're self-enforcing. You know, like actual natural laws, like gravity, thermodynamics, and so-on.
Which is to say, if a right or law needs a human to step in an enforce or protect it, then it's not "natural" at all.
For millenia it was a "natural right" for a man to control his wife's decisions.
Physical laws don't get enforced, they're just a description of how things work. If you decide not to respond to gravity, the gravity police don't come by to put you in jail. Rather, your decision is irrelevant to what happens, you fall anyway.
To the extent the concept of natural rights as a form of natural law can make sense, you have to treat them as a collection of "if, then" propositions, where the "or else things go to Hell" part is just left unstated.
But the fact that those who passed the 14th Amendment believed that the 2nd was an individual right that, among others, would now restrain the states through incorporation in the 14th, is highly significant. If you think that the 2d Amendment merely grants rights to the states, then incorporating that in the 14th is logically nonsense.
I think it's a fair statement that the authors of the 14th Amendment believed the 2nd Amendment was an individual right, but I'm not sure that covers quite as much ground as the 2nd Amendment absolutists would have us believe. The framers never knew about tanks, missiles, and automatic rifles that can get off 100 rounds per minute. They never saw school shootings, mall shootings and workplace shootings happen on a regular basis. They never saw police forces outgunned by organized gangs. So, they never thought about how the Second Amendment might apply under 2022 conditions, which are significantly different than 1789 conditions.
Had they known and thought about such issues, would they have taken the position that weapons should be a complete free for all? Maybe; maybe not. I don't know, and neither does anyone else here. And the intent of the framers is only a legitimate argument insofar as we know what the framers would have thought about something they never thought about. So maybe don't read as much into the intent of the framers.
Also false. Mass murder by depraved individuals has been a thing since the dawn of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900
"Violent suicide" is a thing, unfortunately. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/27/stopping-mass-shooters-q-a-00035762
Part of the problem is that these are socially contagious. Japan and Australia have arsonists, who are just as deadly.
maniacs plan these. Taking away guns doesnt stop a thing.
Serial killers and mass shootings are entirely different phenomena.
And yes, there's other methods of mass killing, but guns are definitely the preferred method.
Of course, mass killings are a very small portion of overall gun deaths and not really what the gun debate should center on.
"I think it’s a fair statement that the authors of the 14th Amendment believed the 2nd Amendment was an individual right, but I’m not sure that covers quite as much ground as the 2nd Amendment absolutists would have us believe."
I'm sure. And it's not my opinion but that of SCOTUS.
That's where the modern day court steps in and looks at RKBA through a modern lens, as they so did with covering a modern interpretation of rights in Heller:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/07-290
"Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997) , and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001) , the Second Amendment extends, prima facie,to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding."
Nice try, but the internet is a bad place to play ignorant.
OK, so if I want to privately own a nuclear missile, that's protected by the Second Amendment? Because if your answer is no, then you, too, draw lines; we just disagree about where it should be drawn.
Is a nuclear missile within the category of "bearable arms"?
A nuclear missile may not be, but a suitcase nuke assuredly is, as is a suitcase-sized dirty bomb. And so too is weaponised anthrax and many other chemical or biological weapons.
Your back at Miller to refine definitions.
Arms common in warfare.
Nukes are not 'common'
That precise reductio ad absurdum gambit has been rolled out so many times in the past decades, that it’s past worn out and as a rag has been thrown in the trash. That you still used it merely indicated you actually have no point of argument and have to rely on a meaningless talking point. It also confirms that you are so stupid, you believe I am so stupid that I’ll fall for such. In that gambit, you show you have no respect for me, and that is certainly reciprocated.
"They never saw school shootings, mall shootings and workplace shootings happen on a regular basis."
Maybe not those exact situations but there must have been several tavern episodes where drunks started shooting, or maybe an OK Corral type of event, or where a group of folks attacked another group for some indiscretion.
Additionally, they definitely saw the British soldiers and for the folks on the western frontier, faced Indian ambushes.
Wiki only listed two mass shooting events prior to the Constitution (The Boston Massacre, 1770 and the Gnadenhutten Massacre, 1782).
"There must have been"? Got any actual data?
Assuming you're right, there was a news story not long ago about a criminal gang that robbed a bank and were able to shoot their way out because they had better weapons than the police did. Can we at least acknowledge that organized crime should not be able to out-gun the police?
I think the cops are already on it – my understanding is that they’re trying to arm themselves as powerfully as they can.
18th century policing was, IIRC, much less organized than today. Certainly one could not dogmatically say that law enforcement officials back then were better armed than the criminals.
Criminal have always been able to out-gun the police. You can find examples all the way back to the Roman times of such crimes. And, just as now, any attempt to stop it merely leads to corruption and police participation in the crimes (either directly or as black-market arms dealers).
Philadelphia had been known as the "Crime Capital of the Colonies".
And one of the earliest school shootings was the Enoch Brown Massacre in 1764. The Framers were aware of school shootings, and yet enacted a Bill of Rights instead of giving Congress unlimited power to protect kids from future Enoch Browns.
Don't forget that the most lethal school KILLING was in Bath Michigan using surplus WW-I explosives. Yes, explosives.
Ejercito presents a picture-perfect example of flailing right-wing gun advocacy. Having apparently Googled up something he did not understand, called the Enoch Brown Massacre, Ejercito writes:
The Framers were aware of school shootings, and yet enacted a Bill of Rights instead of giving Congress unlimited power to protect kids from future Enoch Browns.
But Enoch Brown was a school teacher, killed along with his students by an Indian raiding party on the Pennsylvania frontier, during Pontiac's War. Pontiac's War amounted to a continuation of the just-concluded French and Indian War.
Ejercito is thus saved by pure misunderstanding from the idiocy of comparing this obscure act of 18th century warfare to a modern-day school shooting.
It is absurd to have the interpretation of the Second Amendment stuck in 1791 and not altered by the Fourteenth Amendment and Nineteenth Amendment, given the contemporary attitudes toward race and gender at the time. One question is whether Second Amendment rights of individuals who engage in domestic violence and marital rape, where were not considered crimes in 1791. I believe that, under the Fourteenth and Nineteenth Amendments, state and federal governments may take actions to restrict the availability of guns to individuals who engage in domestic violence and marital rape, even if they were not crimes in 1791.
I was going to suggest that on this tenth anniversary of the slaughter of babies at Sandy Hook, we take just one day off to remember the tragedy instead of debating how many mass shooters can dance on the head of a pin. But I see it's too late -- the gun-huggers are out in full force today. Have fun, and say a little prayer that your kids make it home from school today.
Leading cause of death for young Americans is fentanyl....
Just sayin...
Leading cause of death for young Americans is fentanyl….
Link?
https://www.foxnews.com/us/fentanyl-overdoses-leading-cause-death-adults
“Fentanyl overdoses have surged to the leading cause of death for adults between the ages of 18 and 45, according to an analysis of U.S. government data.
Between 2020 and 2021, nearly 79,000 people between 18 and 45 years old — 37,208 in 2020 and 41,587 in 2021 — died of fentanyl overdoses, the data analysis from opioid awareness organization Families Against Fentanyl shows.
YMMV
Does that include six and seven year old grade school pupils?
There are 3000 deaths from drownings of 5-9 year olds.
Yet swimming pools are ubiquitous, and no one is wanting to ban them.
"There are 3000 deaths from drownings of 5-9 year olds."
Over what period? According to WISQARS between 1999 and 2020 the annual number of non-transportation related drownings for 5 to 9 year olds ranges from a high of 215 to a low of 124.
Yep 3000 over 20 years. Your numbers (and mine) are correct. The comparison stands. Water more deadly than guns.
As usual, the number of children lives saved by guns, not in any equations.
The drive to and from school is many times more likely to kill them, so maybe say that prayer regularly.
Still trying to score political points off the tragedies of others, I see. It was despicable then and it's just as despicable now.
To Dr Ed & SRG's question above, according to World Life Expectancy, the leading cause of death among US youth aged 0-14 is congenital anomalies. Low birth weight comes in at #2. Road traffic accidents is #5, well ahead of homicides (#6) or suicides (#8). Drug use doesn't make the list until #52 though in fairness, some of those might be intentionally mischaracterized by friendly doctors as "poisonings" (#19).
For 15-24 year olds, road traffic accidents jumps up to #1.
Sorry that seems to bother you, Rossami. Actually, no, I'm not. The more people who are bothered by reminders of Sandy Hook, Uvalde, and other massacres the better. Maybe someday we'll come to our senses. Meanwhile, I hope you never have to suffer the pain and grief that so many parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, neighbors, and friends have experienced because of the slaughter of innocents. Stay safe.
Maybe someday you'll make a cogent argument instead of boring appeals to emotion.
Ask "More Curious" why only some murders bother him/her/it.
'Come to our senses'....; How, pray tell?
Please. Illuminate for us what would have stopped the murderous retard at Sandy Hook.
Permanent institutionalization? Yeah, right.
Another law?
IIRC, the much greater law against murder didn't affect his decision. Would any lesser law have?
The only thing I can think of, off hand, is a total ban and total confiscation of all guns in the hands of the citizenry where only the police and military have them.
I remember a movie that had that. Schindler's List
6,000 Black men were murdered in 2012.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/how-the-gun-control-debate-ignores-black-lives/80445/
Why did you not complain about their murders?
Why did their lives matter less?
Rossami, I believe ODs and MVAs are combined into a category of "accidental."
"Accidental" is not actually listed as a cause of death in that source. Certainly other sources would plausibly lump those two categories as you describe but this one doesn't.
And no source I can find comes even within an order of magnitude of the claims of the source in that foxnews article. I'm sorry but I don't think their numbers are credible. They claim to cite to the CDC but the data they claim is not actually in those cites.
But litigation-driven, preconceived outcomes are at work, few firearm restrictions existed at the Founding but more were adopted in the decades after the Fourteenth Amendment, and the incentive thus exists for opponents of the right to keep and bear arms to root for 1868 as the crucial date in order to find historical analogues to current restrictive laws.
I think Halbrook is right that ratification of the 2A is the date to rely on. But I think he has the implications backward. I think it is very much the gun advocates whose policy preferences are best served by relying instead on 1868. But as Halbrook asserts, that reliance will be misplaced, because the notion of incorporation does not mean transformation. It means taking the understanding as it existed at the founding, and applying it unaltered to state actions.
Halbrook, pro-gun commenters here, legal historians, and the Supreme Court all share roughly the same historical blind spot. They suppose the texts of laws are good tools to explain what people did in the past. Actually, you cannot do that today, and you cannot do that for the past.
What the texts of laws said, and how they changed from time to time, may be the stuff of legal history. That has nothing substantive to do with what the Supreme Court implies (benightedly) when it claims to act on the basis of, "history and tradition," a notion which must encompass far more than legal history.
Now or previously, what happens may or may not bear resemblance to what any law says should happen. Sometimes laws get passed because there is every intent to enforce them, and they do get enforced, and society by and large follows the laws. Sometimes laws get passed because few people have been doing what some lawmakers think they should do. New laws get passed, and ignored by nearly everyone, including judges and juries. Sometimes laws are passed with little intent that they be enforced at all, but instead with an intent that they be exemplary—for instance after admonishment that they be severe in their wording, but enforced leniently in practice.
Academic historians have long understood all of that. That is why academic historians prefer to look at the outcomes of trials and of hearings before magistrates. They find it richly informative about mores and social practices when legal texts and courts differ systematically about what legal outcomes ought to be. Which happens often, and probably more often in the 18th century than today.
For that reason, Halbrook is not entitled, as he does in his OP above, to suppose that relative absence of statutory gun restrictions at the time of the founding indicates gun restrictions were absent. That question must be answered by other means than reading legal texts. The substance of law at the time was less textual than it has become since.
Alternatives include reading cases and noting circumstance and outcomes. Also, comparing the social placements of people privileged to use or carry arms without challenge, or people who got in trouble for using or carrying arms. It is also useful to investigate the material bases for supporting the use of arms in various places at various times. Other alternative information sources include merchant records, arms-related infrastructure, household inventories and personal budgets, (but not probate records, which have special problems), private correspondence, and official documents of various kinds.
In pre-founding colonial America there absolutely were frequent instances of arms restrictions, made evident by magistrates' decisions. Circumstances associated with some of the cases make clear that the law would not have been enforced alike for everyone.
For instance, in early colonial times, liberty to hunt was at one point extended unevenly in Massachusetts, with would-be hunters who were skilled at producing game left free to do so, but with others who were less successful sometimes restrained. To understand why might require insight into Puritan theology. Or it may just have been a practical policy choice, to avoid wasted ammunition and wasted time.
No one would have thought to prohibit George Washington from carrying pistols in his saddle bags, no matter where he traveled. An apparent vagrant caught carrying a pistol in Philadelphia would likely be another matter.
In many times and places social class was either more influential than it is now (make no mistake, it remains influential now), or actually determinative of outcomes. While considering Great Britain itself, pro-gun amateur historians repeatedly make the mistake to cite laws regarding arms which were never intended to apply to any but a small fraction of the population.
The accurate understanding of those laws is that they were severe arms restrictions, but with privileged exceptions. Because they are not worded that way, pro-gun advocates continue to misjudge their import, and cite them in support of a misperceived notion of a long-standing liberty to bear arms—the opposite of their actual effect.
In Great Britain, systematic justice for commoners was rarely available. Their standing before the law was a matter for local justices of the peace, or local nobility, to decide arbitrarily. Much of that British tradition carried over to North America, there to diminish or not, unevenly, at various times in various places. To assume the 2A transformed that at a stroke is to ignore the notion of, "history and tradition," touted by the Bruen Court as the basis of its decision.
I am not aware that anyone has done systematically the kind of historical investigation I mention above. Many professional historians are notably less political than right-wing commentary supposes. Academic historians tend to be averse even to attempt historical projects which might be seen as purposeful efforts to influence modern controversies. But it is that kind of historical research project which will be needed, before anyone can rightly claim to grasp America's history and tradition with regard to arms.
One thing is certain. Halbrook's supposition, and Bruen's claim, that founding era American legal history and tradition is all on the side of unrestricted freedom to bear arms, can readily be shot full of holes. That, of course, is less insight than a fully-informed court decision would require.
Problem is, the Supreme Court in Bruen has asserted it will take no cognizance of evidence to show that, or anything else which embarrasses the Court's preference. Until the Court abandons what its methods show to be prejudice, there is no point even to attempt to consider substantively any historical questions with regard to arms.
"An apparent vagrant caught carrying a pistol in Philadelphia would likely be another matter."
Perhaps you could cite an example of this apparently common practice of convicting people of unwritten laws?
"I am not aware that anyone has done systematically the kind of historical investigation I mention above."
I wonder why Bloomberg neglected to fund such research?
Absaroka — At a guess? Because Bloomberg could not find a properly credentialed historian to do such pedestrian work. If you were Edmund Morgan, why would you want to turn yourself into David Kopel?
As for the rest of your objection, the 18th century practice of law enforcement was not uniform, nor was all of it a match for your expectation. "Convicting people of unwritten laws," was not typically a thing, although at some places and times conviction and punishment for offenses against scripture could be.
On the other hand, punishing some people for merely disapproved conduct which might be allowed for others, or punishing miscreant in-group members more severely than out-group offenders, or using small fines, or reproving people, taking away their weapons, telling them to get out of town—stuff like that was commonplace.
At the extremes, in some places and times high status figures enjoyed essentially arbitrary power of life and death. George Washington, as an essentially self-appointed militia leader on the Virginia frontier seems to have hanged deserters with no legal authority to do so in sight. I am not aware that anyone objected afterwards.
The general point is that a sense that conduct was uniformly to be regulated according to legal texts was not fully developed. To know and understand that difference in legal context would improve the Supreme Court's sense of history and tradition notably.
Well, you say "In pre-founding colonial America there absolutely were frequent instances of arms restrictions, made evident by magistrates’ decisions". Your thesis is that those magistrates decisions can be found by a diligent search, and that evidence will conclusively rebut the evidence we have today[1]. The only reason that it hasn't been done already is that when Bloomberg funds entire departments at Johns Hopkins, he can't find any competent historians willing to do the needed research, either for filthy lucre, or out of a sense of duty - I mean, he's not asking them to debase themselves by doing biased research, right? Surely there is no shame in uncovering the truth?
Do I have that all right?
And I understand that your faith in your thesis is strong, but perhaps you could speak more about why we should collectively adopt a faith based belief in these yet unseen things, as opposed to going with the limited information we have today? And if we were to adopt such faith based beliefs, why we should adopt your particular faith as opposed to some other faith?
tl;dr - Lathrop is the only one around here who is qualified to decide historical matters.
"For that reason, Halbrook is not entitled, as he does in his OP above, to suppose that relative absence of statutory gun restrictions at the time of the founding indicates gun restrictions were absent."
What in the ever-loving fuck are you talking about? If you look at the laws and see that firearm restrictions didn't exist, you can't claim the law didn't have them? Sounds to me like someone who's full of shit, and attempting to pre-emptively claim that the missing evidence to support their conclusion exists, just not at all where anyone would actually look to find it.
Last I checked, if a law isn't 'on the books,' then it isn't a law.
Cavanaugh — I get that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But folks who have never looked to see what is there and what is missing cannot use that as a good faith principle. Come back when you have spent a few years reading founding era historical records. I already explained the kinds of records historians could cite to reply to your objection. You seem to be asserting you can ignore that, and just insist that if there is not a legal text in place, what actually happened in the past should not be acknowledged as history.
Nobody should try to use pure uninformed assertion to turn his own ignorance into governing principle—not unless he is a Supreme Court justice, anyway.
"social class was either more influential than it is now (make no mistake, it remains influential now), or actually determinative of outcomes. . . . No one would have thought to prohibit George Washington from carrying pistols in his saddle bags, no matter where he traveled. An apparent vagrant caught carrying a pistol in Philadelphia would likely be another matter. "
It might have been commonplace, but is not well-tolerated today. I doubt that jury was packed with bitter clingers:
"Smith was accused of providing concealed carry weapons permits in exchange for political donations or other favors." https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2022/11/04/guilty-as-charged-california-sheriff-convicted-in-concealed-carry-corruption-case-n64016
Call me when the folks arguing that we should "understand" the 2nd Amendment as it was "understood" in 1791 start arguing against artillery-control.
For that matter, look at Texas. The whole Texas revolution against Mexico started because Mexico tried to take away a cannon. Private ownership of artillery --something basically illegal today, though there are some limited exceptions-- was very-much a thing in 1791.
So if that's your standard? Then c'mon, come out against artillery-control.
Those who support gun control take an incrementalistic approach, why shouldn't those of us who oppose gun control take the same kind of approach. There are other easier, low hanging, fruit, when we have secured those, we'll go after the cannon control (covers large direct fire guns as well as artillery)
Next stop post-Bruen: interstate reciprocity. Seems low-hanging to me. The question today seems to be "who has standing?"
You can buy artillery, tanks, and grenades. You just need the right paperwork. Also its fairly easy now to get Glock auto sears, or 3D print them. The only reason they are not common is that none of those things are super practical. With a Glock auto sear, you are likely to put 33 bullets into the sky instead of your assailants.
This isn't quite as dumb as arguing that the 21st amendment didn't materially change the 18th amendment because they were written in different times. But, the fundamentals of mislogic and non sequitir are the same.
If “well regulated” has operative meaning then the 2nd Amendment as applied to the states has to mean something different from what it means as applied to the federal government. Of the original Bill of Rights, only the 2nd and 10th Amendments mention states. Unless that mention is meaningless surplusage, it gives states a power to organize and regulate a militia which must be harmonized with the individual right to keep aan bear arms. The federal government has some enumerated militia powers, but not a general regulatory power. Prior to 1868 the state power to regulate a militia was exclusively a right against the federal government (just like the individual right to keep and beat arms). After 1868, the state power and individual right need to be harmonized, so that both have effect and each somewhat tempers but neither eviscerates the other.
The 'operative meaning' of "well regulated" has definitions that don't include "under a lot of regulatory laws".
In the vernacular of the time:
https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm
The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment
From: Brian T. Halonen
The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
"State" singular is very different from "States" plural. The reference in the 10th Amendment very clearly refers to the individual states such as Delaware, Maryland, etc. The reference in the 2nd Amendment could be read (and I think more plausibly is read) as the generic 'state as sovereign body' encompassing both the individual States (Delaware, et al) and the federal one (the United States).
Can some of the judicial apologists justify why the Second Circuit keeps staying injunctions against New York's new unconstitutional gun law?
How does:
'the elitist dread of the plebian unwashed masses having GUNS! in a manner the goobermint can't easily control' work for you?
The whole caterwauling of gun rights absolutism, led by the defender of the AR-15, Mr. Halbrook, on the tenth anniversary of a massacre of little school children by a perpetrator using that very weapon, is obscene.
On the contrary, your attempt to exploit a tragedy to score a cheap political point is what is obscene. The root causes of crime and the proper treatment of mental illness are problems that you gun-grabbers seem to have neither answers for nor a willingness to address.
Bingo. I signed in so I could make that very comment.
That political point is not cheap. You ought to know. You're paying for it.
It is a fundamental principle of jurisprudence that later law trumps earlier law (and you here recognize that). Whatever there is in the Constitution (adopted 1789) that conflicts with ANYTHING in the Bill of Rights (adopted 1791) is "no longer operative". Most federal law regarding guns (and which forms the basis of much state regulation) is predicated on Congress' power of regulating interstate commerce. Whatever power was there granted to Congress, the 2nd amendment revoked it.
No. Volokh dealt this specious argument by cataloging State versions of the 2nd amendment. PA, for example (since 1791): "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned"
Incorporation did not modify anything. It took what was already binding on the federal government and made it binding on the states. The issue is what is the scope of each right in the BIll of Rights.
You said: "State constitutional protections for the right to keep and bear arms from the time of the federal Bill of Rights show that the 2nd Amendment was an individual right, but only to protect individuals from the federal government’s gun control."
This is patently false as I demonstrated with PA's own constitution.
But you've simply defined shoulder fired missiles as not within the meaning of the Second Amendment, which is precisely what people who want to ban large magazines do. Why do you get to set definitional lines and they don't?
If you read the speech, it appears that that was Jacob Howard's intent as well.
The P& I clause means that 2A protects the individual's right to keep and bear arms.
try to read and actually grasp what Thomas wrote in the mcdonald concurrence.
A cannon is more destructive, but one can't exactly walk around carrying a cannon.
"Originalism" w.r.t. the first two amendments is an incoherent philosophy because the writers of the US constitution literally had no original intent with regards to anything remotely resembling modern guns, modern ways of transmitting speech, or many other things listed in the constitution. If they did no one has the foggiest idea what they would have written instead, but the 2nd amendment probably wouldn't have talked about militias.
I don't think there's any particular question that was the intent. The Slaugherhouse Court didn't care, because they weren't trying to uphold the amendment, they were trying to moot it.
But that most of the justices still don't care isn't exactly something to be proud of.
The 14th amendment may have modified which levels of government the 2nd amendment was binding on. That doesn't mean it in any way modified what it bound them to refrain from.
I actually think the 2nd Amendment was incorporated from it's enactment date. First, the framers knew how to write a prohibition that only applied to the federal government: "Congress shall make no law...". Second ensuring the populace was adequately armed enough to form an effective militia was clearly a federal responsibility listed in Congress' core Article 1 powers. And Third, state court cases like Nunn v Georgia 1846, showed state courts applying the federal 2nd amendment to invalidate state laws infringing on the right to bear arms.
And you’re applying this logic only to weapons while ignoring other modern things that weren’t around in the 1790s. As I pointed out above, the same logic could be used to say the 4A doesn’t protect our electronic communications.
which is precisely what people who want to ban large magazines do.
Miller specifically protects weapons that demonstrate a particular utility in war time fighting. That would be a specific protection from laws against magazine size. The same protection Miller affords those rifles that cosmetically resemble AR-15
"“It’s also important information that in the colonial era, protected arms included ones more destructive than muskets, such as privately owned cannons.”
Cite?"
Are you aware of the fact that the Battle of Lexington & Concord was an attempt by the British to seize cannons in Concord? They found three but they were too heavy to move (without caissons) so they damaged them so they couldn't be used. They may or may not have seized a smaller brass cannon as well.
"“It’s also important information that in the colonial era, protected arms included ones more destructive than muskets, such as privately owned cannons.”
Cite?"
The Maine governor's mansion, directly across the street from the state capitol, is called the Blaine House because it was owned by James Blaine (and donated by his youngest daughter).
During the disputed 1879 election, James Blaine mounted cannons in his front yard and pointed them at the State House -- it was legal to own your own cannons in 1879.
Surplus civil war cannons were sold to anyone who wanted one -- Francis Bannerman sold a lot of them to anyone who wanted one.
https://relicrecord.com/blog/francis-bannerman-military-surplus/
The problem is, even if you can point to a few people who seemed to have that intent, you can point to many more (both among Congress and the state legislatures that ratified the amendment) who had a different understanding. Here's a few examples:
"The 14th Amendment was clearly intended to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866. This was asserted over and over again both in the congressional debates and as supporters presented the amendment to the states.
Sen. Lyman Trumbull (Ill.) guided the 14th through the Senate. In a speech in Chicago as the amendment was being debated, he “clearly and unhesitatingly declared Sec. 1 of the Amendment to ‘be a reiteration of the rights as set forth in the Civil Rights Bill.’” Martin Thayer (R-Pa.) declared, “It is but incorporating in the Constitution the principle of the civil rights bill which has lately become a law.” Indiana Senator Henry Smith Lane reaffirmed Trumbull’s views, as did several other congressmen addressing their states. West Virginia Rep. George Latham said, “The civil rights bill, which is now a law…covers exactly the same ground as the amendment.” Howard Jay Graham, an advocate of an abolitionist reading of the amendment said, “Virtually every speech in the debates on the amendment – Republican and Democrat alike – said or agreed that the amendment was designed to embody or incorporate the Civil Rights Act.""
Also let's not forget the longstanding "dangerous and unusual" limitation on the right to bear arms.
Hand grenades and shoulder fired missiles have never been in common use by individuals, and seem to be clearly unusually dangerous.
Whereas AR-15's with a 25 round magazine and a Glock with a 15 round magazine are very common and not unusually dangerous.
However having politicians like Joe Biden threaten use of F15's against civilians makes me think shoulder fired missiles shouldn't be completely off the table:
“For those brave right-wing Americans who say it’s all about keeping America independent and safe, if you want to fight against the country you need an F-15, you need something a little more than a gun.”
"Dangerous and unusual" doesn't relate so much to whether something can kill, (As is repeatedly noted, being "dangerous" in that sense is the purpose of a firearm.) or is rare.
It's more a matter of how feasible it is to use it in a responsible manner. I can shoot one person with a pistol, and that's fine, because occasions actually can come up where it's legal and appropriate for me to shoot someone
But you can't point a hand grenade. The odds of your ever having a responsible use for it, as a weapon, are rather slim.
Except that the Constitution was a limited delegation of power to the Federal government and so had nothing to say about citizens of states delegating powers to their own states – except 9A and 10A, which only reinforces the point. Hence 2A cannot have applied to states at the time of passage.
There is a school of thought that all the amendments were incorporated against the states at the time of the BoR ratification. the concept being that the Federal Government, The 13 states and the people were all parties to the constitution. As such, all the provisions of the constitution applied to all the parties, unless specifically excluded.
Thomas make reference in his Mcdonald concurrence in a footnote of some historical writings regarding that issue.
The counter argument (and the majority thought) is that the BoR was only a prohibition against the federal government. If so, then the 5A, the double jeopardy clause is a direct prohibition against the dual prosecution by the federal government which is explicit as to why Gamble was wrongly decided.
"But you can’t point a hand grenade. The odds of your ever having a responsible use for it, as a weapon, are rather slim."
I certainly grant that hand grenades are poor choices for defense against muggers, but haven't you argued for the 'resist tyranny' purpose of the unorganized militia in the past? Because If I'm stocking up for that purpose, with things an individual could actually afford to buy, then hand grenades, claymores and C4 are exactly what you would want.
And the supremes just aren't going to go there, no way, no how.
(also spread spectrum encrypted radios ... it really bugs me those aren't legal!)
"Dangerous and unusual" means both. AR-15'S are certainly dangerous but they aren't unusual.
Hand grenades are unusual, and dangerous, and unusually dangerous.
I think it would be fair to say the 14th amendment incorporates or embodies the 1866 Civil rights act, in the sense that the 1866 Civil rights act is a sub-set of what the 14th amendment did.
That's fine, but is contrary to the different understanding described above. It's not what these people and many others were saying.
Sorry, no - that's not inherent to the definition of "arms".
Yup. "Arms" has a much broader meaning than just small portable weapon. It applies to any amount of equipment as well, not to mention larger stuff
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/arm
"weapons and equipment used to kill and injure people:"
The said it constutionalized the CRA. They didn't say that that's all it did.
"(also spread spectrum encrypted radios … it really bugs me those aren’t legal!)"
What ever gave you that idea? There are some limits in terms of frequency bands you can do it in, and how much you have to spread the signal, but it's legal.
These quotes are barely a tip of the iceberg here but:
“It is but incorporating in the Constitution the principle of the civil rights bill which has lately become a law.”
The word “but” means that is all it’s doing.
“Sec. 1 of the Amendment to ‘be a reiteration of the rights as set forth in the Civil Rights Bill.'”
Being a reiteration of the CRA, precludes being actually something extremely different than the CRA, such as something that makes a 100x bigger change to the fundamental structure of government.
The plain English of the 2nd amendment wants firearms to make sure the militia is effective. All this self-defense and individual right to guns stuff is just you assigning additional intent not present in the words.
It obviously didn't freeze the common law into place, as indicated by the reduction in the number of capital crimes - and legislatures were doing it even before the Supreme Court put its oar in.
Or perhaps you mean that it doesn't count if the legislature changes the common law - only judicial changes matter.
But if judges could change common-law practices protected by the Constitution, they could, say, allow juries of less than 12 - wait, they did that already.
So I guess the Constitution is living after all.
That was my understanding when I got my long-lapsed ham license, based on FCC Part 97.113:
"97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
...
(4) ... messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; ..."
A little googling says that the rise of digital ham services has made things a bit fuzzy. I see a lot of 'well, that encoding is OK because it could actually be decoded'.
But I confess I'm long out of the loop. If you are aware of any spread spectrum, LPI, strongly encrypted radios that are approved for amateur use I'm all ears!
Now, I don't think the 8th Amendment justifies a generic "death penalty." Death by hanging was usual, and it can't have been wrong in all cases anyway because the Bill of Rights speaks of capital crimes.
But electrocution *might* be unconstitutional (whatever the Supreme Court says). It was certainly unusual in the sense I've described. The Founders knew about electricity - one of them made discoveries in that field - but it never occurred to them - or to the common law - to *execute* anyone by electricity. So that leaves the question of cruelty.
Burning someone to death with electricity strikes me as cruel, so if flunks both "prongs" of the 8th Amendment imho. I could always be wrong.
"Except that the Constitution was a limited delegation of power to the Federal government and so had nothing to say about citizens of states delegating powers to their own states."
Not hardly, in fact that is just absurd characterization of the constitution. If the 2nd amendment couldn't limit the states, then how could the 14th?
Plus, Article 1, Section 10 has a whole list of things States aren't allowed to do:
"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Adding a clause forbidding them from infringing on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not a radical departure from those prohibitions.
No, the decision was a state court case that depended on the federal 2nd amendment to strike a state law, in 1846:
"The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of the free State....
These general and comprehensive expressions extend the provisions of the constitution of the United States to every article which is not confined, by the subject matter, to the national government, and is equally applicable to the states."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn_v._Georgia
Well, you can certainly get spread spectrum radios approved for amateur use. And direct sequence spread spectrum is inherently a form of encryption, isn't it? If you don't have the modulation sequence, it's just noise.
But looking into it, I see that you can do some stuff of that nature legally, but they have limited it quite a bit.
The principle, not the specifics. So the Civil Rights act specified some of our rights, the 14th amendment took that principle to its logical conclusion: All of them.
As you say, it is the words that count.
"wants firearms" glosses over the actual words "the right to keep and bear arms". It's a right not a desire.
As you point out, the value of a militia is offered as justification for the protection of the right. But the justification is not a restriction on the scope of a right, it's a reason for protecting it.
And once you have, say, explicitly protected a right to keep a dog, justified by noting that dogs can be useful for deterring burglars, the citizen's right to keep a dog is not extinguished if his purpose in keeping a dog has nothing to do with watchdoggery. He may keep his dog for other purposes - hunting, lapwarming, companionship, or sitting for paintings.
If as a lawmaker, or constitution writer, you wish to limit the scope of the right to watchdoggery, you need to draft it thus - with the justification replaced by a limitation. Thus for example, moving from dogs to arms :
"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, in support of a well regulated Militia, shall not be infringed."
Correct.
mad kalak would be right if 14A had actually amended 2A eg
2A : "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
14A ".....the words "by any branch of government, whether state or federal" shall be added at the end of the Second Amendment..."
In that case we would have a revised jumble of words all in the same sentence, and we should assume that the drafters considered the whole string at the time they amended them. (I ignore for present purpses the IMHO good argument that the added words are unnecessary since 2A is not explicitly limited to Congressional action.)
But in fact all 14A does say is - "that rule over there also restricts that government player too". There's no justification for concluding that applying an old rule to a new player, changes the old rule itself.
Indeed the whole piece to which we are responding is perfectly obvious. No one but a casuist could advance the contrary.
If the 2nd amendment couldn’t limit the states, then how could the 14th?
Article 1, Section 10 has a whole list of things States aren’t allowed to do:
Yes, some of the Constitution also restricted the states but that restriction had to be explicit - and was done to ensure the Federal nature of the United States. But look at the majority of the Constitution
The counter argument (and the majority thought) is that the BoR was only a prohibition against the federal government.
The BoR was an after thought (Amendments added later to the Constitution) to protect the People, from the newly proposed federal govt.
The exception would be the 1st. "Congress shall make no law..." Which allowed the States to retain their State sponsored and funded with tax $'s, Churches.
The ship owners did not need the license for the cannon, but for the State-created right to use them to seize ships, sailors, and cargo.
Short of that, the cannon were necessary for ships to protect themselves from piracy.
The license for to use the ships and cannons in a particular way, it was not required to own or acquire them.
Again, you can argue that this is what the 14th amendment did, from the weight of the evidence, but it's simply not what these particular people and many others understood.
As to the principles involved, you are conflating a vast body of undefined and disparate principles into one. And that supposed principle amounts to the wholesale destruction of federalism and the establishment of a supreme judicial oligarchy that can exercise jurisdiction over every conceivable matter of government.
The general thinking reflected in the Constitution is that rights are not to be "specified" or given by the government, but are preexisting. The government is merely directed to endeavor to recognize and respect and protect those rights. Furthermore those rights are by no means exhaustively enumerated in the bill of rights, or maybe anywhere. So when you say "All of them" that would indicate you support an open ended, free-wheeling substantive due process-type of SCOTUS decisionmaking over all matters including those of the states.
This is contrary to any notion of self-government, in our present configuration especially. The structure of federalism and decentralization is based on the philosophy of self-government, and the recognition that liberty is subjective and not universally agreed, and that men should not govern others but instead govern themselves to a maximum extent.
It seems to me, the power to specify what rights the people are entitled to, and to define the contours of those rights, is the power to deny any one of them by simple redefinition or neglect. So in that scenario we'll just need to count on getting the "right people" all the time (if not "angels in the form of men" as Jefferson put it) even as the system for doing so becomes less representative and more unwieldy, dysfunctional, self-interested and captured by special interests with size. Better get another helping of your eternal vigilance.
Back to the point - to take the Civil Rights Act and constitutionalize it, so that a future Congress could not simply repeal it, is actually what it means to incorporate its principle in the Constitution.