The Volokh Conspiracy
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Prof. Michael McConnell (Stanford) on 303 Creative (the Web Site Designer / Same-Sex Wedding Case)
Prof. McConnell is one of the top First Amendment law scholars in the country, and I was delighted that he passed along this item:
Much of the commentary on today's argument in 303 Creative starts from the premise that the case pits free speech (or maybe religious freedom) against LGBTQ rights. The headline in The Economist reads: "A new Supreme Court case may dampen protections for LGBT people." Anyone listening carefully to the argument will discover that this framing is off the mark. Both sides in the argument were peppered with hypotheticals—some of them bizarre—about other possible scenarios if the Colorado law that has been interpreted to require a web designer to use her talents to celebrate a same-sex wedding is upheld. Or struck down. The hypotheticals involved all manner of speech on one side or the other of questions related to discrimination of one sort or another—religious discrimination, political belief discrimination, pro-LGBT advocacy, and any other messages you can imagine that involve one group favored over another.
One thing is clear from the argument: 303 Creative is not about whether protections for LGBT people will be dampened. The decision will apply across the board. The question is whether civil rights protections properly include the suppression of speech that disagrees with legal norms, or compels speech that celebrates those norms. Alternatively: do artists (including web designers) have the freedom to depict what subjects they wish, and how—even if they take money for doing it, and even if their perspective is hurtful (to some people)?
One of the most telling exchanges during the argument involved a hypothetical from Justice Barrett, who asked the Deputy Solicitor General Brian Fletcher (whom I consider a friend: full disclosure), supporting the Colorado law, what would happen if the shoe were on the other foot—i.e., what if a gay web designer declined to create a custom website for a Christian organization that advocates for traditional marriage? Could the state compel such a person to design such a website?
Remarkably, Brian responded that the two cases should come out differently. That is, Colorado can compel a Christian to design a custom website celebrating a same-sex marriage, but cannot compel a gay person to design a custom website advocating for traditional marriage. His reasoning for this answer reveals the fundamental flaws in the government's position.
According to the Deputy Solicitor General, declining to design a website for a same-sex marriage is inherently a form of "status discrimination," which the government can treat as a form of "conduct" (not speech) and therefore compel or suppress as it sees fit. But declining to design a website promoting traditional marriage is discrimination based on the message (not status) and is therefore protected speech.
There are several problems with this argument. First, it embraces a blatant form of viewpoint discrimination. Whether an expressive activity is "conduct" that discriminates based on "status," or instead is "speech" on the basis of "message," and thus protected, cannot depend on which side of the issue you are on. It is hard to imagine a regime more antithetical to the principle that the government must not favor or disfavor speech based on its viewpoint.
Second, as Justices Barrett and Gorsuch noted, declining to design a website promoting traditional marriage can easily be deemed "status discrimination," too. Built into Justice Barrett's hypothetical was the fact that the organization promoting traditional marriage was doing so based on its Christian beliefs about marriage. Religious beliefs are no less central to the status of "religion" than beliefs about marriage are to the status of being gay. So refusing to design the Christian website discriminates not only based on the message, but also based on the religious beliefs of the person seeking to express it. In other words, the message (celebrating traditional marriage) is inextricably intertwined with the religious beliefs of the customer requesting it, just as the government claims a message celebrating a same-sex marriage is inextricably intertwined with the status of the individuals requesting it.
Justice Alito illustrated this problem with a related hypothetical: What if a Jewish website designer declines to design a website celebrating a marriage between a Jew and a gentile based on the belief that intermarriage is an existential threat to the future of Judaism? The lawyer for the State of Colorado said Colorado can compel the Jewish designer to produce the site. This may get credit for candor. But it also illustrates the troubling consequences of the government's position.
I am moved to add my own personal favorite hypothetical. What if a Jewish florist is asked to design the floral display of white lilies on Easter Sunday morning at a Christian church? Ordinarily, flowers are just flowers. But the lilies in church on Easter morning are a symbol of the new life in Christ. I cannot believe that a free nation would compel a Jewish florist to construct a symbol of Christ's resurrection—on pain of losing the right to be a florist. The government was forced to concede that public accommodation laws do not always trump free speech and free exercise rights. But where is the stopping point—other than which beliefs are in favor with the government at a particular point in time?
Just last Monday, Vladimir Putin signed a law that blocks Russians from promoting same-sex relationships "or portraying them as normal" in advertising and media, backed by fines up to $6400 for individuals or $80,000 for organizations. We would never do that. But the reason is not the content of the messages being forbidden, but our commitment to the principle that people are entitled to express their own views free of government coercion.
Third, the government's position is not limited to web designers. It would apply to any speech the government deems "status discrimination." Thus, speechwriters, singers, painters, photographer all can be compelled to create speech and art celebrating same-sex weddings (but can't be compelled to create speech and art promoting traditional marriage). The government tried to resist this conclusion on the ground that artists might not be deemed "public accommodations." True! And important! Never before have expressive services like art and web design been deemed to be public accommodations. It is essential to artistic freedom that artists have the right to choose their own subject and their own perspective—even if other people find their work shocking. (Remember Mapplethorpe?) The fundamental problem in this case is that the Colorado courts interpreted the state law of public accommodation, which is about basic non-expressive services like electricity and hotel rooms, as including the right to compel an artist or web designer to use their creative talent to express something they do not believe. When state courts make this mistake, the First Amendment comes into play as a corrective.
No, the issue debated in 303 Creative is not whether protections for LGBTQ people will be curtailed. It is much smaller, and much larger, than that. Smaller: because all actual protections against discrimination in public accommodations will remain in place. No one has the right to compel other people to use their expressive talents to celebrate their status; civil rights laws have never required this for any protected class and the Colorado law should not have been interpreted to do so. And larger: because the case is really about artistic freedom and the right of people engaged in expressive professions to determine their subjects and perspective. If the State of Colorado can require this web designer to create a website celebrating a message contrary to her sincere beliefs, there will be no end of it.
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This case seems like an easy one--the right not to put one's creativity to use is protected by the Constitution. The hard part is figuring out where the line is to be drawn. (Tie goes to the artist.) So, and I think there is broad agreement, a painter (of portraits and the like) cannot be required to paint a portrait of a gay couple, but a carpenter can be required to provide service to a gay couple. Where you draw the line is hard.
Or just bring back freedom of association and tell busybodies to gtfo.
I forget, do you deny de facto discrimination is a thing, or do you think enabling Jim Crow is a price you pay for freedom?
Such a weak argument. The question is whether the government has the power to condition the offering of artistic services to the public on that offeror having to harness his or her creativity for a message with which they disagree.
The answer to your legal argument is definitely yes, the government does have that power.
Alphabet's policy argument remains historically ignorant about what freedom means in the real world.
Coming next--a lawsuit against a TERF for not sleeping with a transed female.
I find posters getting mad at hypothetical future events is the end of useful conversation.
Apparently, you don't understand sarcasm.
You seem a lot more mad than sarcastic.
I am an atheist; so I don't much care about the religious issues--I do think that people have the right to sell their expressive wares generally without government conditionality. I think that where government violates rights, there should be consequences. And I feel that way for all kinds of violations. Rudy Giuliani was unfit for office, in my opinion, because he violated the First Amendment rights of the Five Percent Nation of Allah.
"Apparently, you don’t understand sarcasm."
Nor do I -- it's an increasing form of discrimination for a guy to not be sexually attracted to another guy who dresses like a girl.
I am not making this up.
Without addressing the merit of your statement, I would like to point out that this entire case is based on someone getting mad at a hypothetical future event.
Fair put.
Which is a good reason why this case shouldn't even be heard yet.
Nothing about this case is a genuine controversy. The entire conflict was manufactured for the sole purpose of filing a lawsuit.
Like Griswold v Connecticut?
Uh, Griswold was an appeal from criminal convictions, affirmed by the appellate courts of Connecticut.
"Which is a good reason why this case shouldn’t even be heard yet."
IANAL, but I am perplexed about how this even got to trial. 303 Creative hasn't even begun to engage in the business of making wedding websites, she just thinks that she might want to. Don't you usually need more than that to have standing to sue?
Perhaps someone who is a practicing attorney can explain how she overcame the objections due to standing?
As Prof. McConnell astutely points out, most of the arguments yesterday involved hypotheticals; in fact the entire case is hypothetical. Aren't courts supposed to adjudicate concrete issues not speculation?
No; she affirmatively states that she intends to.
Certainly not in the context of speech, no. You can argue that a particular law that threatens to punish you for your speech is chilling your 1A rights. You're not required to violate the law and face prosecution to bring a suit; you can bring a pre-enforcement action.
@ not guilty -- You might try researching the facts of Griswold.
"Coming next–a lawsuit against a TERF for not sleeping with a transed female."
Where is the state action?
State University….
"Mr & Mrs Jones, we expelled your son for not sleeping with "her"..."
I believe there would be a lot less discrimination if there were freedom of association, and the little that existed would be blatant -- signs in store windows, for instance. The vast majority of the public would shun those places, even if they themselves were bigots, because the economics work against them.
I also believe in liberty. Apparently you don't. I am glad to have bigots like you, who hate liberty and leaving people alone, outing yourself, and I want more bigots to either out themselves or keep it to themselves.
A bunch of state governments think differently. Makes sense, they remember history.
LOL if you think discrimination would be blatant. Why would that be?
I also believe in liberty. Apparently you don’t.
I believe in liberty that is real and operational, not just legal niceties.
I also know history, and pay attention to the black experience. Apparently, you don't.
Why would you think that? Phillips still hasn't put up a sign. If you don't follow this kind of news (and many people don't, rational ignorance, remember?) then you can walk into his store and try to place an order never knowing what a homophobe he is.
Heck, there's a wedding dress shop in Philadelphia that has a recurring problem with this. No state law to prohibit discrimination against gays, so they have a perfectly legal anti-lesbian policy. And because they don't advertise such, they keep having lesbian couples walk through the door because they've heard good things about it.
Go through the cases one by one (both the ones that led to lawsuits and the ones that just led to news articles) and what you'll see is that the people that want to refuse gay people don't want their straight customers knowing that. For that matter, they often consider it an attack on their freedoms for someone that was refused to tell anyone about being refused.
Hell, in every single one of these anti-gay discrimination cases, this is the first one I've heard of where the bigot wants to put up a sign.
So, uh, sorry, but you're so very very wrong here. Modern bigots don't have the courage of 60s-era racists.
De facto discrimination being a thing does not automatically mean that it is a proper role of government to fix it. People chewing with their mouths open is also a thing. People not brushing their teeth enough is a thing. People being jerks generally is a thing.
Jim Crow laws were a notable evil because they were laws - they were coercive acts of government, not merely acts of "people".
De facto discrimination being a thing does not automatically mean that it is a proper role of government to fix it.
It does if you claim to care about liberty.
If you care about hewing to the purest political philosophy, then I guess you're in the clear. And also disconnected from reality.
Jim Crow showed us a bunch of bad laws, and a bunch of badness that didn't need laws. The feds didn't have to step with troops because because state laws the problem. But they did need to do so.
There is absolutely a tension between civil rights and the freedom of association, especially with respect to expressive association and RFRA stuff. But answering it with freedom of association always wins...well, that's historically ignorant.
No, it doesn't. In fact, history shows that asking government to "fix" it is about the most anti-liberty thing you can do. You get some short-term gains but massive long-term costs. So yes, freedom of association always wins because government bullying just creates resistance and backlash.
Education, communication and freedom of association, on the other hand, are the only things that fix the underlying attitudes that drive the de facto discrimination that was the starting premise of your argument.
In fact, history shows that asking government to “fix” it is about the most anti-liberty thing you can do
Tell that to black people, gay people, and women.
You have these ideas of how problems are solved, but you back them up with...nothing. Pie in the sky ideology. Turns out, the South didn't move till the Feds got involved. Not just by telling them their laws were unconsitutional, but by bringing in troops.
You're ignoring the actual history. The feds got involved, yes, but they were needed to bring the southern governments in line. Bringing in the troops did nothing to change personal attitudes. Those changed only over time and in response to personal contacts and interactions.
Bringing in the troops did nothing to change personal attitudes
The troops were to deal with the citizens, not the governments.
No people's attitudes didn't change overnight when the troops came in. But Ruby Bridges, etc were a necessary part of that shift in attitude. To ensure said personal interaction, if you will.
Where do you think the troops were FROM?
Even though the Guard Units had been Federalized, where do you think they were FROM? Vermont?!?
The National Guard troops that Orval Faubus called out to enforce segregation were presumably mostly from Arkansas. The regular army (101st Airborne) troops Eisenhower deployed to Little Rock to enforce desegregation were presumably from all over the country, or where ever the 101st was based (Kentucky, I'd guess), depending on how you want to look at it.
Source.
Funny they didn't end Slavery in Kentucky, New Jersey, or Delaware, until they'd "moved" the South.
"De facto discrimination being a thing does not automatically mean that it is a proper role of government to fix it.
It does if you claim to care about liberty."
No, it does if you don't care about liberty. Non-discrimination mandates aren't "liberty", they're exceptions to it! People who care about liberty don't go around ordering unwilling people to work for them.
Brett, as I've told you before, your liberty is a smooth legal edifice, with none of the bumps and complications that come from looking at how freedom works in real life. You hear about the law in it's majestic equality and think it's a statement about equality.
You say I don't care about people. Which people? Your economic freedom helps those with economic power. Business owners, rich people who want low taxes, etc.
My operational freedom looks at actual people making actual choices. At the actual effects of businesses discriminating we know from history, and how group dynamics work in a town that decides it doesn't like an underclass of some sort.
At the actual viable choices a poor person can make, and how to expand that.
Calling civil rights laws exceptions to liberty?! It's like you have never even heard from someone who has suffered discrimination from a private individual.
You’ve transformed “liberty” into an excuse to order people around. And you expect people to not notice how Orwellian that is.
“Calling civil rights laws exceptions to liberty?!”
Anti-discrimination laws are not civil rights laws, because you don’t have any civil right to not be discriminated against by non-governmental actors. Civil rights are your rights visa vi the government. Freedom of speech and religion, free association, the right to vote, freedom of travel, things like that.
In fact, you can easily see how anti-discrimination laws actually violate genuine civil liberties like freedom of association.
Civil rights laws are a subset of anti discrimination laws.
You call that ordering people around. I call it understanding history and people.
As I said, you think the law is majestic in its equality. You can go on about your genuine liberties, and not care about the real world or history. Which is nice and easy and naive and ignorant and morally lazy.
I notice your thinking gets a bit more nuanced when Twitter shows up. Which is typical.
I tend to think it's more about economics than civil rights. Turning away good money is bad business. It's also an invitation for a competitor to open up across the street.
People are not rational economic-maximizing machines.
Tons of other needs than to accumulate wealth.
Among other things, the Jim Crow era shows us this.
Jim Crow *WAS* the government trying to "fix" something. If you think people have changed so little that de facto discrimination is just a SCOTUS ruling away, why do you think the government is so pious? By trying to fix "de facto discrimination" you are empowering the government to enforce de jure discrimination, same way they did with Jim Crow laws.
If you think people have changed so little that de facto discrimination is just a SCOTUS ruling away, why do you think the government is so pious
Different incentives.
Human nature doesn't change, though the specific outgroups sometimes do. Not much around here - around here, they play the old hits of women, blacks, illegals, and Jews. Plus gays now.
Haven't discriminated against any Defactos in my life, but that's just me.
Well, how would you? I think a couple of families might have made it to the new world, most of them are still in that home town back in Italy.
You ever met Tony DeFacto?? he makes Phil Leotardo look like Pee Wee Herman, I'm never late with my "Installments"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Jim Crow" government restrictions? If so, your comment is (pretty much as usual) nonsensical.
There was also a tremendous amount of voluntary discrimination.
And it's not as if some invading army imposed Jim Crow laws on an unwilling white population. The laws were hugely popular. Political campaigns made a point of explaining what extreme segregationists their candidates were. Indeed, it's not even clear that the laws, per se, were the binding constraint.
So the whole "It was a government problem" line of argument is bullshit. It was a societal problem. Racism was ingrained.
I would have assumed a southerner like yourself would know this.
It was, by DemoKKKrat Governments for the most part (not sure about those Yankee Holdouts in Utah, Idaho, Chicago, Milwaukee, Boston)
Let's also be clear about one thing, designing a custom cake for a same sex wedding is everybit as much an artistic endeavor as web design, or painting.
I think printing invitations is different, if the artwork is provided, but it's hard to say the decision not print something doesn't involve freedom of the press.
Could be. But custom design is not what that Cake Shop was doing, according to the factual record - they had a book you selected your cake from.
I think there are subsets of web design that act quite similar. The design is largely ministerial, not creative.
I absolutely concur with you that if the facts show creative involvement, then you get expressive association that'll trump public accommodation laws.
>they had a book you selected your cake from
A book of designs they created? I honestly don’t know.
I do know that wedding cakes are painstakingly crafted by hand. You’re not just pushing a button. And the outcome is entirely dependent upon the care of the person doing the baking and decorating.
The point, for me at least, is that no new creativity was required. No more of themselves are put into making one of their off-the-shelf cakes.
I do know that wedding cakes are painstakingly crafted by hand
The amount of work and carefulness required is not the issue, though. Running a hotel requires a lot of work and care as well!
The point, for me at least, is that no new creativity was required.
Then the customer could have anyone bake the cake. Problem solved.
Tell me, do you think the cooks at McDonalds and Burger King are being creative?
Do you find their burgers indistinguishable?
Will either serve me a boiled lobster?
Should they have to if I ask for one?
Your point, proves there is no need for the govt to compel a person to "build" what any person with directions can "build".
That's not exactly how I remember the case. They had a book of designs, but that was to help customers decide what they wanted, not a list of designs to choose from. A customer might say, “We want a cake that looks sort of like this one, but with these modifications.” Or a customer could say, “We don't need to look at the book--we know what we want.” While it would be possible for a customer to spot a cake in the book and say, “this cake is exactly what we want,” I gather this did not happen often if at all.
The reporting after confused things - both sides had an incentive to shade the truth.
But the factual record did not include any personal or bespoke cake decorating services.
Kennedy actually said in the majority opinion that the record wasn't clear one way or the other. In any event, it seems like you're working really hard for a technical out given that for years before this kerfuffle arose Jack Phillips prominently advertised custom cakes on his website:
Which does not establish the service at question in the case.
I’m traveling or Id link the pleadings. They are what matters.
You consider the pleadings to be the extent of the factual record? That could explain at least part of the disconnect.
Tell that to my wife. Every site she has ever done is a complete one-off.
There are subsets of web design that are a lot like off-the-shelf.
Your wife doesn’t seem to be in that subset.
I’m no web design expert myself – I got that from the lower court opinion.
There are some but it's less and less today. With DIY sites like Wix out there why bother to hire someone to do cookie cutter work when you can do it yourself for next to nothing?
In our experience when you hire a designer you're not looking to pick out of a catalog.
but a carpenter can be required to provide service to a gay couple. Where you draw the line is hard.
An architect? An interior designer? Framers, can be identified by their signature style of construction.
All of a sudden that clear line you thought you had is fuzzy again.
Here too, is the reverse OK? Can a gay finish carpenter refuse to work for a a person publicly lobbying the legislative bodies to keep marriage between a man and women?
So when you read 'Where you draw the line is hard' what did you think that meant?
Easy solution: Don't draw a line.
Do you mean: (1) maintain the current anti-discrimination regime, with no exceptions for anyone (florists, bakers, web designers, singers, clergymen, etc.), or (2) legalize all non-governmental discrimination?
(If you meant #2, I agree.)
Courts make facts-based determination all the time.
Apply strict scrutiny. Observe that there is no lack of services available to the plaintiffs. Dismiss the case.
You want to make being anti-gay a protected class?
No, I want to make non-governmental discrimination legal (unless the would-be discriminator has a monopoly on a vitally important service, like a hospital or a power company).
The plaintiff here is the web designer.
I just took the line that was drawn, at an extreme so as to be an example of the far end of the scale, and Showed drawing a line is impossible. Line drawing for for the people. Not judges. That's why we find ourselves in the conundrums, created by lawyers.
I like that! (“Liberals” and “progressives” won’t buy it though.)
Facts based questions are pretty common for courts to answer actually.
If you force a creative person to produce a product, there is no guarantee they will do a good job. Another problem is the burden of going forward. These laws make it easier for a plaintiff to get past the pleadings phase and into discovery.
“As a Christian Identity church, our religion teaches that Nordics are the *real* Jews. We need a good Web site, and so we’ve come to you to make us one.”
“You realize that I’m Jewish?”
“You mean you’re an imposter *claiming* to be Jewish. Our Web site will explain all this.”
“I won’t do this for you.”
“You bigot, you design Web sites for synagogues, and even for Methodists. Now you don’t want to do a Web site for our church just because you don’t like our beliefs? That's religious discrimination – we’ll sue you until you get out of the web-design business.”
Ari Shaffir covered this very well in his "KKK takes robes to black dry cleaners" bit... surprised it's still up on the YouTubes,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAzHJZyGOk
Frank
Wow. Justice Barret's question goes to the heart of things -- free speech for one side, not the other. The state's response is sophistry, as Prof McConnell rightly points out. If the state's sympathy was with the other side, it could do the same thing in reverse.
A rule of law that allows the state to compel speech in favor of one viewpoint it approves of, but decline to do so in favor of a viewpoint it disagrees with, is just totalitarianism covered up by legal mumbo-jumbo. It will be shocking if the web designer loses this one (unless SCOTUS punts and decides she has no standing, or it's not ripe or some other Article III doctrine.)
Bored lawyer - Concur with your point, specifically the approved totalitarianism.
It is basically the real bigots wanting to force everyone to engage in their personal bigotory.
The Left embraced a dictatorship of relativism decades ago. To wit, for all of their sophistry in denying the old Twitter did anything nefarious that merited outrage, there is this troubling lawsuit :
https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-rules-twitter-can-be-sued-for-failing-to-take-down-child-porn-videos/
August 19, 2021Judge rules Twitter can be sued for failing to take down child porn videos
A federal judge found Twitter may have benefitted financially from ad revenue generated by tweets containing child sexual abuse material.
Here is the lawsuit filed Jan 2021
https://endsexualexploitation.org/wp-content/uploads/Doe-v-Twitter_FiledComplaint_012021.pdf
"Justice Barret’s question goes to the heart of things — free speech for one side, not the other."
Are you surprised?
All of this is about some people being more equal than others.
" All of this is about some people being more equal than others. "
Is that a disparagement of snowflake-level special privilege for superstition-rooted claims (often advanced by the disingenuous)?
"Reverend" Jerry, do the prisoners you do Pro-Boner work (No Typo) for ever ask where you got your "Shingle"?? I mean Law Degree, you don't sound like most of the Lawyers I know (I know Lawyers, and not professionally (except for that one DUI)) With the way you run that purty mouth (you're still alive, must have a purty mouth) it's gotta be a pretty high falut'in school? Hah-vud?(Loved Paper Chase), Yale, Columbia? West Dumbfuck Egypt??(you do seem to be fixated on the Dumbguck Eygypts of the world) I'll take your silence as confirming you're a graduate at WDE (also acronym for another great School, that I'm saving for a more successful season)
Frank
Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno were registered Republicans and conservatives residing in the depleted, parasitic portion of Pennsylvania (the desolate stretch between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, which might as well be in West Virginia, Kentucky, Idaho, or Mississiippi).
They also were enormous hypocrites and stains on decent American society, like many if not most clingers.
So you're not registered any more Jerry? Should have committed your "Counseling" acts in a more "Progressive" State like ME or VT (Somehow don't think they meet your definition of "Progressive") that lets X-Offenders (Great Blondie Tune BTW) vote while incarcerated,
but hey, seeing the location of https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
get your antipathy to that part of the P-A
Still coy (not a bad strategy in your current situation) about your Almer Mater? Also not a bad strategy, pretty sure they're as ashamed of you,
Frank "(the) Auburn University, never mind what year"
Who did Orwell write that about? Leftists.
Who's pushing this crap now? Leftists.
Like Bored Lawyer said: totalitarianism covered up by legal mumbo-jumbo. USSR all over again.
"do artists (including web designers) have the freedom to depict what subjects they wish, and how—even if they take money for doing it"
There's three types of artist:
(1) Those who make money from doing their art
(2) Those would like to make money from doing their art
(3) Those who already have the money they want and don't want to be paid for their art hobby.
I had an argument once with a self-proclaimed communist ("but not a stalinist!") who wanted the government to pay all artists enough to never need a day job. I said I would go around painting circles on everything: where's my pay? She said that's not art! I said I'm the artist, I say it's art, and you don't get a say. We went round and round on that until the bottle ran out.
You doubtless know that there is a strong strain of esthetic relativism in modern thought. If the artist calls it art, it is art. The view is not obliged to find the work artful, but the artist can call garbage anything s/he wants.
Not in such words, but that's actually similar to one of the arguments that came up in Masterpiece Cakeshop.
Phillip's lawyer was unable to give a coherent answer to why Phillips was an artist, but a chef wasn't.
That failure is probably one of the reasons why the SCOTUS punted.
Phillip’s lawyer was unable to give a coherent answer to why Phillips was an artist, but a chef wasn’t.
The distinction is easy. The end result of a wedding cake is expressive -- a wedding cake in American (maybe all Western) culture is a symbol of celebration of a wedding. In American culture it's symbolic.
A chef's product is not. Filet mignon with a side of roasted potatoes does not express a message.
It's the same reason that someone who sews flags for a living is producing expressive products, while someone who sews shirts or pants does not. In our culture, flags are used to make a statement. Gay pride parades feature people carrying a flag of a certain design, to send a message.
Same for American flags at Independence Day parades.
So do you just think Phillip's lawyer was an idiot then?
Or maybe he could not think of an answer on his feet.
Now explain why the distinction is not valid.
How convenient that picking cotton isn't expressive.
SCOTUS has opined that “We cannot accept the view that an apparently limitless variety of conduct can be labeled ‘speech’ whenever the person engaging in the conduct intends thereby to express an idea.” United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367, 376 (1968). Any alleged “expressive” element of cake decorating is de minmis and hardly rises to the level of protected speech.
In the alternative, O’Brien instructs that when “speech” and “nonspeech” elements are combined in the same course of conduct, a sufficiently important governmental interest in regulating the nonspeech element can justify incidental limitations on First Amendment freedoms. Ibid. A government regulation is sufficiently justified if it is within the constitutional power of the Government; if it furthers an important or substantial governmental interest; if the governmental interest is unrelated to the suppression of free expression, and if the incidental restriction on alleged First Amendment freedoms is no greater than is essential to the furtherance of that interest. Id., at 377.
The Tenth Amendment reserves to the states the power to regulate businesses in the marketplace. A state’s goal of “eliminating discrimination and assuring its citizens equal access to publicly available goods and services . . . is unrelated to the suppression of expression [and] plainly serves compelling state interests of the highest order.” Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 624 (1984). Measures to achieve this goal less restrictive than prohibiting refusal of goods or services (with no penalty provision as in Colorado, BTW) would in all likelihood be ineffectual.
The end result of a wedding cake is expressive
Sometimes. Usually not.
I was thinking about a survey. Show 1000 people a picture of a wedding cake, then ask them, what is this?
Then ask them, does that tell you anything?
I predict a large number will answer "wedding cake" and "someone is celebrating a wedding."
Do you agree a flag is generally expressive?
Well, that sure seem a great way to set a legal standard!
Just don’t leave it to he courts, eh Bored Lawyer?
Surveys are an accepted part of certain types of litigation, such as trademark and false advertising. With the rise of the internet, they are much easier and cheaper to implement.
The assertion is that wedding cakes are not expressive. That can be tested by surveying what people think when they see one. I don't have to rely on what nine justices intuitively think to determine a factual issue.
Even if we assume that creation of a wedding cake has a minimal component of "expression," why are you disregarding the language from United States v. O'Brien that I cited above?
You are assuming the answer. I don't agree it is "minimally expressive." It is one of the symbols of a marriage celebration. It often bears words to that effect, and for those who want to spend a lot of money on it, it has decorations keyed to the interests and personalities of the couple.
Do you think a flag is expression? What makes it so -- your say so, or how most people in society perceive it?
You are still dodging discussion of O'Brien. Why am I unsurprised? Assuming, as SCOTUS did there, some expressive component, what part of the four part test do you contend is not satisfied where non-discrimination statutes are applied to a wedding cake baker?
A flag, qua flag, is not expression; it is a piece of cloth. A flag can be used to convey expression, such as by waving it (or by burning it).
Maybe because the "instruction" "A state’s goal of “eliminating discrimination and assuring its citizens equal access to publicly available goods and services . . . is unrelated to the suppression of expression . . ." is bullshit.
Still waiting, Bored Lawyer. O’Brien outlined a four part test for when the First Amendment permits government regulation when “speech” and “nonspeech” elements are combined in the same course of conduct. I cited the relevant language of the opinion upthread. Which of the four elements do you claim is not satisfied by application of the Colorado public accommodations statutes to cake baking? Please show your work.
Gandydancer, I quoted the applicable language from Roberts v. United States Jaycees that a state’s prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations is unrelated to the suppression of expression. Do you have countervailing Supreme Court authority? However distasteful you may find it, Supreme Court precedent is controlling law. Justice Robert Jackson, concurring in result in Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443, 540 (1953), observed “We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final.”
Cite your authority, or admit that you are talking out of your ass.
O’Brien does not apply for the same reason that it did not apply in Green v. Miss United States of Am., LLC, 52 F.4th 773 (9th Cir. 2022). Which you can review here: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2022/11/02/21-35228.pdf
To quote the Ninth Circuit:
Same applies in the wedding cake case. Wedding cakes are created as symbols to celebrate a wedding. At least in American culture. Which is why they often have words or custom designs. There is nothing “incidental” in forcing someone to create such a symbol.
Now do you seriously think that making a flag — say a “pride” flag with a rainbow design — is not expressive, and thus under O’Brien a seamstress can be forced to do so under Public Accomodations laws?
Also see Justice Thomas' concurrence in the Masterpiece Bakeshop case:
Thomas put it better than I did. So thanks for making me do the homework. Note his citation to O'Brien, which he deals with.
Thank you for engaging in some substantive analysis.
Do you seriously contend that cake baking/decoration does not involve “nonspeech” elements? Sorry, but that doesn't pass the giggle test. The principal activity there is combining the various ingredients and producing a commercial product. Any "message" conveyed thereby is purely incidental.
Expression of a particular viewpoint is inherent in and central to conducting a beauty pageant or a parade. A wedding itself is expressive as to the principals and the officiant. A vendor's provision of goods and services incident to the wedding ordinarily is not. Videography inherently involves pure speech; accordingly, I hope that SCOTUS reverses the Tenth Circuit in 303 Creative. Cake baking does not.
(Apart from the legal issues and as an aside, I wonder about the wisdom of a gay couple purchasing a food product from someone who likely loathes their very existence.)
@guilty of great foolishness and dishonesty: You are asserting a category error. The claim, “A state’s goal of “eliminating discrimination and assuring its citizens equal access to publicly available goods and services . . . is unrelated to the suppression of expression [and] plainly serves compelling state interests of the highest order.” ..is merely a factual claim by some lying kritarch, not “precedent”. And it is one I am fully qualified to judge on my own. And it is, as I said, bullshit. If this web designer is compelled to labor on expressing an opinion with which she vehemently disagrees as a condition for engaging in the sale of her labor then her freedom of expression has obviously been impacted even if nine assholes in robes unanimously claim otherwise. How the decisions of the lower courts will be affected (whether the “reasoning” is precedent) is an entirely separate question.
… edit: Whether the “REASONING” is wrongly TAKEN as “precedent”…
It’s of course the DECISION that is precedent, not the ramblings of the kritarchs when they blither on to justify why they made the decision. Cases can be distinguished ad nauseum when there’s a will to do so.
The fundamental problem in this case is that the Colorado courts interpreted the state law of public accommodation, which is about basic non-expressive services like electricity and hotel rooms, as including the right to compel an artist or web designer to use their creative talent to express something they do not believe. When state courts make this mistake, the First Amendment comes into play as a corrective.
"Public accomodations" has been expanded far beyond its original meaning, businesses where the public congregates, like hotels, theatres and transportation. Private services like web site designs is far beyond what was contemplated.
Wrong.
"Commerce," i.e., goods and services are included; not just whether a person can physically be present.
What do you think of banks in the US and Canada seizing funds and denying financial services to political dissidents? Like the truckers in Canada?
You just proved his point. "Public accommodations" was not, until recently, understood to include all of commerce, but rather only those that are actually "accommodations."
That is more or less how courts have interpreted it. (Some even further.) But it was not the original intent.
Bored, are you arguing that public accommodation laws shouldn't apply to the power company, or does the public congregate around the duplex outlets in your neck of the woods?
A power company is a utility. Different law.
I think the Solicitor General's conclusion on status versus message is correct. Same-sex marriage is inextricably linked with being gay. Opposition to same-sex marriage is not inextricably linked to being religious or any other status.
That being said, I think the SG is wrong that discrimination on the basis of status establishes the law only incidentally burdens speech. It's possible there is discrimination against gays and at the same time the law heavily burdens speech.
Not really. The straight parents of one member of the gay couple could want to purchase the web services.
Quoting from the oral arguments from the state's lawyer:
The discrimination is aimed at he wedding couple.
Same-sex marriage is inextricably linked with being gay. Opposition to same-sex marriage is not inextricably linked to being religious or any other status.
This is not only legal sophistry (which I know we have debated here numerous times), but also false. Many religions consider SSM sinful, and avoiding sin is "inextricably linked" with those religions.
(It's the particular religion that is at issue, not "being religious" in general.)
Basically what I was going to say.
Opposition to same-sex marriage is not only based on a belief that homosexuality is sinful. It's sometimes based on the belief that homosexuality is abnormal without any reference to religion.
But If I am wrong and refusal to service a same-sex marriage is inextricably linked to being religious, then anti-discrimination law as applied to the limo driver's refusal to service a same-sex wedding would not be neutral towards religion and fail under strict scrutiny. That can't be right.
That it can be inextricably linked doesn't mean it always is.
Some people get married to obtain an immigration status.
Inextricably linked is good enough. Plus in your example, the couple is breaking the law and if discovered ought to lead to deportation.
Swap out "same-sex" for "interracial", and see how far you'd get in court.
But If I am wrong and refusal to service a interracial marriage is inextricably linked to being religious, then anti-discrimination law as applied to the limo driver’s refusal to service a interracial wedding would not be neutral towards religion and fail under strict scrutiny. That can’t be right.
Works for me. Whether it is "same-sex" or "interracial" the conclusion is the same: refusal to service the wedding is not inextricably linked to being religious.
So, did you just stop reading after the comma? There was a whole second half of that sentence.
What's after the comma only happens if what comes before the comma is true. Since what comes after is not true (in my opinion), what comes before the comma must be false.
Status is not merely "religious" but "my personal (and sincere) beliefs about my particular religion". The SG is wrong. Opposition to same-sex marriage is just as inextricably linked to status as promoting it.
That's discrimination on the basis of ideology/belief, which is not a protected class in Colorado.
Are you saying that ideology/belief is separate from religion in this context, or that religion is not a protected class in Colorado (because you'd be wrong on both counts)
The former. I think ideology/belief is separate from religion because opposition to SSM can be either a religious or secular belief.
Opposition to same-sex marriage can be secular. So can a desire to not eat ham. That doesn't turn kosher rules into some kind of unprotected ideology or belief. Your distinction does not stand up as a matter of logic or law.
If ham was outlawed because it is unhealthy (without any pretext for targeting religious practice), it would not be discrimination on the basis of religion. Or, if I refused to let anyone who eats ham into my gym because of health reasons (without any pretext for targeting religious practice), I would not be discriminating on the basis of religion.
"Opposition to same-sex marriage is not inextricably linked to being religious or any other status."
So say you, but why is your opinion dispositive? There is no such reason
Of course my opinion is not dispositive. But, I hope you are persuaded there are many people who object to same-sex marriages on secular grounds.
Relatively few, actually. And not just in America, basically in every country that's done polling on this it's the deeply religious that hate gays the most.
Secular anti-gay bigots are relatively rare.
I am not in the slightest degree religious and find faggots and faggotry repulsive just the same. This is perfectly normal, among the non-religious and religious alike, out here in the real world.
I dunno; most of us find lesbians really hot.
There is no principle that requires same service couples to be gay. That is the difference. Any two men or women can be married, regardless of their sexual orientation. Can I marry my drinking buddy if we decide we want the legal status? What about marrying my fellow fang member to get the spousal testimony privilege? If not, why not?
That would be an interesting argument. Say I'm not gay but my drinking buddy is uninsured and has cancer. I propose we marry to get him the insurance coverage he needs for treatment. I'd be very curious of the opinions of those who oppose both for religious and secular reasons if their opposition still stood.
Why on earth would I see your desire to screw over other purchasers of group insurance in order to get insurance for your buddy as a reason to approve of same sex "marriage"?
Well that's why I threw it out there. I was curious if those who made a moral argument would say "Well that's different".
For the sake of argument, let's posit that your argument "Same-sex marriage is inextricably linked with being gay" is correct.
The issue is, the counterpoint to that is not "Opposition to same-sex marriage..." The proper counterpoint (assuming your original argument is correct) is that "traditional marriage is inextricably linked with being heterosexual".
And allowing a group to discriminate against traditional marriage would be discrimination based on sexual orientation. Based on your logic. But, apparently, that's fine according to the SG?
Lets revisit what the SG said:
“[W]hat if a gay web designer declined to create a custom website for a Christian organization that advocates for traditional marriage? Could the state compel such a person to design such a website?”
The conduct here is not getting married while being heterosexual.
I'm nearly certain the SG would say you can't refuse to make a website for an opposite-sex marriage either. What he argued was the state cannot compel someone to create a website advocating for opposite-sex marriage (or same-sex marriage).
A website celebrating a marriage is inherently a website advocating for that type of marriage.
I disagree. I suspect there are plenty of people who object to same-sex marriage that would nonetheless have no problem serving same-sex marriages. And most certainly, if that advocacy is a political position (e.g., opposition to the Respect for Marriage Act), that is far removed from serving a same-sex marriage.
I repeat, a website celebrating a marriage is inherently a website advocating for that type of marriage.
That someone has no problem advancing a position with which he actually disagrees if he is paid or otherwise benefits from doing that affects my observation not at all.
"The question is whether civil rights protections properly include the suppression of speech that disagrees with legal norms, or compels speech that celebrates those norms. "
Um, perhaps a stupid question, but what exactly is a "legal norm" in this context?
The "legal norm" that same-sex marriage is ok?
So performing work for someone whose view you disagree with, regardless if it is religious or not, is different if the work in turn celebrates why the person is actually in disagreement.
So it should be okay to state you won't make a cake that celebrates same sex marriage if you are opposed to it but making a cake that does nothing of the kind should happen; meaning you cannot just refuse them a cake because they are same sex but you can refuse to make a cake that celebrates it.
the whole issue just revolves around religion and so do the examples provided by the justices/experts which comes back to, should the government be able to compel people to act against their religion if no harm is involved, and being denied a cake is not harmful as there are likely to be people who will provide the service.
oh well I am confused but I am not a lawyer and can easily talk in circles regardless to convince myself I am right.
It's simple. The state cannot force you to express a message you don't want to. Even if it's part of a business.
If your business does not involve a message or expression, then you cannot discriminate on certain bases set out in law. Generally, race, sex, religion and a few others. In Colorado, sexual orientation.
That means the web designer cannot be forced to make a website celebrating same-sex marriage. OTOH, if a gay person wants her to design a website to promote a business, say a restaurant, and she designs restaurant websites for others, she cannot turn him down because he is gay.
What if she believes it is sinful for gays to run businesses?
She can believe that all she wants. That’s not what’s being argued before the USSC.
I think what's being argued is she believes designing the website is complicity in sin, advances a message she disagrees with and violates the First Amendment's protections against compelled speech. Why wouldn't the same conclusion apply in Bored's hypothetical?
" is complicity in sin"
Such complicity does not hold up in any court. Your argument loses
Funny, I remember a certain case that was all about whether or not writing a letter was sufficiently complicit in sin to make it an undue religious burden. It had many supporters round here.
Until you tell me the content of the letter, I cannot comment.
Did the letter give directions about how to sin successfully, how to get away with the crime?
Did it say, "whatever happens, I'll still be your friend?'
Big difference in those letters
Little Sisters of the Poor. One of the many compromises they refused was just sending a letter saying that their health insurance wasn't covering birth control.
By writing the letter they would enable the sinful service to be paid for by the insurer (notionally -- it would actually get paid for by them in due course, of course), iirc.
Did you just say that Smith's argument that she can't be compelled to create the website loses because her refusal to do so is based on her belief that she would complicit in sin?
There was an attempt in the petition for certiorari to revisit Employment Div. v. Smith. SCOTUS did not go there.
As the case is being argued, it is purely a compelled speech issue. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Indeed. So, what do you think Don Nico meant? I can’t parse it.
Perhaps I should rephrase my original question so we don't get stuck on religion: "What if she believes it is immoral for gays to run businesses?" Can she be required to create a website for the restaurant?
It's a perfectly good argument for why she ought not be compelled to do it.
Why wouldn't it hold up, if it's a sincerely held religious belief? Courts don't get to decide whether religious beliefs are right or wrong.
Whether she believes designing the website is complicity in sin is irrelevant to her claims here. It may supply her personal motive, but it's not her legal argument. It wouldn't matter if she herself were gay and felt that gay weddings were an offensive attempt to imitate bourgeois heterosexual norms; she'd still have the same speech-related 1A right to refuse.
If it's free speech, then you have that right regardless of whether your motive is religious or not.
You can, for purely political reasons, refuse to do a Web site for the Christian Identity church I hypothesized above.
Or you can refuse to do a site celebrating the customer's "white culture" even if you help customers celebrating "black culture."
Right, it's not limited to religious issues. Someone could refuse to design websites to promote Republican candidates, or to promote the pro-life position, or any other political or cultural viewpoint.
One thing is clear from the argument: 303 Creative is not about whether protections for LGBT people will be dampened. The decision will apply across the board.
Except as implemented, where it largely would operate against LGBT.
declining to design a website promoting traditional marriage is discrimination based on the message (not status) and is therefore protected speech.
By this logic all refusals of service are speech.
I understand the argument that being LGBT is status, and being an anti-gay marriage Christian is conduct, but I do think that is wrong. Civil Rights law treats religion as status as well.
Of note is that this was a collusive case, but I don't mind those.
I think current caselaw handles this fine - the ask contemplated here is sufficiently creative that it is expression by the company. But I think a blanket decision about all web design is over-inclusive.
Getting gay married is also conduct. It's not a status.
Getting married is the conduct, BCD. There is no gay married distinction at law.
Right, getting gay married is the conduct. Conduct doesn't have any protected status, so why can't anyone discriminate against that conduct?
Getting married is the conduct, BCD. There is no gay married distinction at law.
The refusal of service has to do with who is getting married, not the conduct of getting married.
Would these people discriminate if a gay man was natural marrying a gay woman?
I have no idea. Also, natural marrying is no more a thing than gay marrying.
Sure it is. Just like we use same-sex marriage and marriage.
They are to distinguish two different concepts. One is gay married, the other is natural married.
>I have no idea.
Of course you don't. You play stupid every time you get penned in.
Marriage has been recognized as a fundamental right within the "liberty" protected from state infringement without due process of law since 1923. Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923).
Can anyone in any configuration get government married?
No, but the burden of justification of any state infringement rests upon the state when challenged by a plaintiff with standing to do so.
Doesn't sound like a very fundamental right, tbh.
I am curious. In the world according to BravoCharlieDelta, is Pace v. Alabama, 106 U.S. 583 (1883), still good law?
It's not being "anti-gay marriage Christian." It's just being "anti-gay marriage." And thus it is a regulation of conduct that incidentally burdens religion.
Huh.
Unless CO has a RFRA-like law, that does seem correct.
Maybe we are talking past each other.
Justice Barrett argued that if refusing to create a website for a same-sex marriage is discrimination against gays (status, not belief), then refusing to create a website that opposes same-sex marriage is discrimination on the basis of religion (also status, not belief). That is, either both are examples of status-based discrimination, or both are not.
I read your post to be that you believe both are discrimination on the basis of status. Did I misunderstand you?
They are either both discrimination on the basis of status or neither are.
No,
S_0, it is not correct. The burden is NOT incidental to orthodox Catholicism. Others can comment on other religious brands.
I'm not sure you understand what Josh R wrote.
Being being an anti-gay marriage is not the same as being LGBT. One is a political position, the other is a sexual orientation.
"Being being an anti-gay marriage is not the same as being LGBT,"
Looking at that sentence... have you been drinking?
"Status"-wise, proselytizing for normal marriage because you are an observant Catholic is no different than proselytizing for homo "marriage" because you're politics are LGBTQ+. If a web designer declines to aid you in either endeavor is should be treated exactly the same.
"that incidentally burdens religion."
Huh? Tell that to the Pope or to any of his orthodox followers.
Josh you don't win the argument by assuming the answer that your are trying to prove.
I'm not assuming my conclusion. If a designer refuses to service all people - equally those with religious and secular motivations - who want to create an anti-SSM website, then there is no discrimination on the basis of religion even if there is a disparate impact on religious people.
How do you figure? She really wants to design gay wedding sites and wants to force others to do so, and is hoping to lose? Or the state officials really don't want to force people to do so, and they're hoping to lose?
Didn't quite put that right.
But there is not a clear case or controversy here - it's client shopping.
If you are open to serve the public, then you have to serve the public.
Period.
Did they say they were "open to serve the public"? Maybe they just want to do business with a select few clients. Why do you get to decide they’re "open to serve the public"?
Yes, they did.
They are the ones that affirmed that (A) they were a public accommodation, and (B) they intended to discriminate against gay people.
If you argue either of those away, the case falls apart and the ADF is sad.
Public accomadation -
Philipps was open to the public and actively served gay people. He just refused to create a cake for a "specific" activity.
Same with the website. Nothing in the record indicates that she is refusing to be open to the public and serve gay customers. She is only refusing to perform a specific service for a specific activity.
That is not, and has never been, the law.
A newspaper, for example, can accept advertisements from many sources, and turn down one that it disagrees with.
And notice how acc. to Colorado, your rule applies only in one direction. A gay web-design may refuse to design a website for a traditional religious group, but not the other way around.
They are okay with oppression/discrimination so long as the directionality is in their favor. In fact, they long for it and beg our institutions to manifest it.
That came up at oral argument, and the respondents weren't so sure that was true.
BL didn't sign his brain over to the care of the respondents.
Now do the counter hypotheticals, where the LGBT baker refuses to bake a Nazi cake for all those Trumpistas you see under every bed.
Will nobody think of the Nazis?
Snide and funny, but it doesn’t address the point. Care to actually try?
I'm all for nobody ever doing anything for Nazis except telling them to fuck off.
apedad has a bone to pick with you...
But, let me guess, you'll say: EXCEPT the Nazis! . . . And we're back at Bored Lawyer's point (above):
A rule of law that allows the state to compel speech in favor of one viewpoint it approves of, but decline to do so in favor of a viewpoint it disagrees with, is just totalitarianism covered up by legal mumbo-jumbo.
The speech is compelled (and I actually have come round to agree that it shouldn’t be but I reckon this is a wedge issue for rolling back rights and protections, the org involved explicitly wanting to criminalise homosexuality again) because the ‘viewpoint’ (though actually the identity) being protected has been severely, even brutally, discriminated against in the past. You’re not supposed to discriminate against gay people because theres no reason to other than homophobia which, like Nazism, is an inherently oppressive force or belief or whatever, cf, the org wanting to criminalise homosexuality. There are many actual compelling reasons to discriminate against Nazis.
Shorter answer, the law can suppress speech I don't like and compel speech I like.
As I said somewhere here (or maybe another thread), if the Nazis had the right to march in Skokie, this web designer has to the right not to do a website for a gay couple. The latter will face a lot less pain (finding another web designer) than that caused by the former, marching in a town with many Holocaust survivors.
What hypothetical? Y'all tried that.
Heck, that the Colorado Commission saw a difference between refusing someone for being gay, and refusing someone because they wanted a homophobic cake, was used as evidence the Commission had an anti-religious animus in Masterpiece.
Because apparently some people can't see the difference between "there is no wedding cake I would sell you, because you are gay" and "I'll sell you the bible-page cake, but I won't put those words on it".
Is that how you think it is, or how you think it should be?
Do you think JP Morgan Chase has to continue servicing Kanye West?
Or, in the news recently is some internet troll who apparently wormed his way into hanging out with "Ye" and from there, got into a dinner where Trump was present. He supposedly had a $500,000 bank account seized by the DOJ, and "According to ABC News in March 2021, Fuentes had been suspended from "almost all" social media platforms.[92] Fuentes claimed that his bank account had been frozen, that he had been placed on a federal no-fly list, and that he had been banned from Airbnb, Facebook and Instagram... Twitter was among the last mainstream social media sites to ban Fuentes, permanently suspending his verified account in July 2021.[93][94][95] He has also been banned from financial and e-commerce services, including PayPal, Venmo, Patreon, Shopify, Stripe, Streamlabs, and Coinbase.[31]" (wikipedia)
Do you disagree with any of that, or agree with all of it, or some mix?
There are, of course, tens of thousands (or more) of actually sympathetic figures and examples that could be cited. Those happenings tend to get ignored by the media and suppressed by search engines, and people in bubbles tend to be ignorant of them and even react with anger and denial upon encountering the facts. But might as well start with the "bad" guys.
some internet troll
Laughable.
I'm not sure I believe any of it! I mean, obviously we can see if he's on social media. But all the rest, the only source is his word. And he's not exactly a reliable narrator. Fits his message to pretend to be persecuted.
Treat it as a hypothetical, then.
I wanted to get into Studio 54 back in the day, but they wouldn’t let me in. Oh well.
Studio 54 was not 'open to serve the public.'
I think apedad rather oversimplifies things, but your argument is bad.
In what possible sense was Studio 54 not open to serve the public?
When it had a velvet rope and most folks didn't get in.
It was before my time, but IIRC it was quite exclusive.
That does not mean it was not a "public accomodation."
Do you seriously believe Studio 54 could turn people away because they were black? Or Jewish? Or gay (assuming that was a protected class back in the 70s, I don't think so.)
I do think that, yes.
You're mistaken. Merely being selective in who one lets in is insufficient to make something a "distinctly private" club rather than a public accommodation under either the 1A or public accommodations law. You should study the trilogy of Roberts v. United States Jaycees, Board of Directors of Rotary Int'l v. Rotary Club, and New York State Club Assn., Inc. v. City of New York, and review the NYCHRL.
I don't know if this was the case but if they charged a cover fee, no matter how small, you could make a strong argument they were not open to the public, but were instead a private club and the cover was really a membership fee.
You could make a weak argument for that, but it would in fact be pretextual.
"I wanted to get into Studio 54 back in the day, but they wouldn’t let me in. Oh well."
Did New York then have an applicable public accommodations law, and were you refused admittance because of a characteristic specified therein?
I believe the topic at hand is this:
If you are open to serve the public, then you have to serve the public.
Period.
NY did have a public accomodations law, as did the U.S. I don't believe it included sexual orientation, but it did include race and religion, among other things.
I very much doubt "we don't let just anyone in" gets you out of those laws.
Again, do you claim that you were excluded based on any characteristic specified in New York's public accommodations law?
apedad 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"If you are open to serve the public, then you have to serve the public.
Period."
Service providers turn away clients all the time - period
re: "If you are open to serve the public, then you have to serve the public."
So you think that you should be compelled to design a favorable website for the KKK. Or if you're a speech-writer, you can be compelled to provide those services to the head of Westboro Baptist. As a lawyer, you're forbidden from ever turning down a client no matter how heinous or how badly it will ruin your other practice.
None of those things are true. They never have been true because your premise is not true. And you would be the first one screaming about it if you were actually held to that standard yourself.
Oh, so that's how you do it? Great, here's my take:
If you're a private establishment, then no one can force you to serve them if you'd rather not.
Period.
The what about the reverse questions aren’t hypothetical. Here’s a story from just yesterday about blatant discrimination. And these people don't even have a free speech defense. If you believe that discrimination is wrong, then you have to be for a strong legal enforcement against the people who did this.
But almost all of you who talk about "discrimination" just want an advantage for the special people and have adopted the language of "discrimination" as a convenient tool to use to gain that advantage. When people who are not like you are treated unfairly, you don’t mind at all.
I notice that no one responded to you yet.
Can’t be used to advance their grievances means no interest.
Politics isn't covered under non-discrimination law in Virginia, and it was quite overtly and clearly that it was the politics of the group that was the problem, not the religion.
But sue if you want.
Christianity isn’t "politics".
And legalistic distinctions are not principled. You’re saying you think they can get away with this behavior and escape penalties somehow, like a rapist who doesn’t get caught.
"[W]hat if a gay web designer declined to create a custom website for a Christian organization that advocates for traditional marriage? Could the state compel such a person to design such a website?"
Doesn't it matter whether the gay web designer would also refuse to create a custom website for a Jewish or Muslim organization that wanted to create a website that advocates for traditional marriage? If so, it doesn't sound like religious discrimination, but rather discrimination based on the message (and, thus, not covered by Colorado's statute). The fact that the hypothetical Christian organization may be motivated by its Christian beliefs isn't really relevant to whether or not its religious discrimination.
"discrimination based on the message" is exactly what the web designer proposes to engage in.
That the controversy being decided and the hypothetical are in principle exactly the same was precisely ACB's point.
It was imteresting, and as I said before the argument predictable, that not a single justice appeared willing to defend the 10th Circuit’s position, which was that web site design is speech but the state has a compelling interest justifying compelling the web site designer to speak what the State of Colorado wanted to hear. Nobody really defended that position, not even Colorado’s lawyer. Everybody in the oral argument seemed to agree that if it’s speech it’s protected, and if it’s conduct it isn’t.
All of the court’s liberals attempted to argue that designing wedding websites isn’t speech. And several of the conservatives attempted to argue it isn’t a public accommodation, and shouldn’t have been considered subject to Colorado’s public accommodations law in the first place, despite what the parties had stipulated.
It seems pretty clear to me that web site design is speech, and protected.
And as mentioned before the argument, all this hoopla involves a small set of boundary activities whose status as speech might be debated. Whether they are classified as speech or not is certainly important to those involved. But it isn’t as important in the big scheme of things as the parties suggest in their arguments or the media seems to be assuming.
If cake design isn't speech, why would website design be?
Website design is closely related to photography, which has long been recognized as enjoying First Amendment protection. Web design also involves choice of what language to include or not to include. Cake baking is conduct without an expressive component.
What? First Amendment protections for photography? Are you for real?
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1514/elane-photography-v-willock
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/07/supreme-court-gay-lesbian-marriage-photographer/7304157/
Why are you diminishing what wedding cake shops do to just baking? Do they not do any design?
SCOTUS opined in 1952 that motion pictures are First Amendment protected. Joseph Burstyn, Inc. v. Wilson, 343 U.S. 495 (1952), overruling Mutual Film Corp. v. Industrial Comm'n, 236 U. S. 230 (1915). A motion picture is merely a sequence of consecutive still images photographed in a series by a specially designed camera projected on a screen in rapid succession.
What happened to Elaine’s photography? Was she forced to photograph gay weddings with the implicit stamp of approval by SCOTUS?
I mean, given the facts, what do the facts say about photography being protected?
Why are you diminishing what wedding cake shops do to just baking? Do they not do any design?
The Supreme Court of New Mexico in Elane Photography LLC v. Willock concluded that the case did not involve compelled speech:
https://law.justia.com/cases/new-mexico/supreme-court/2013/33-687.html
No one there suggested that photography is not First Amendment protected. The court found no infringement of free speech despite the protected nature of the photography. (FWIW, I disagree with the New Mexico court’s compelled speech analysis.)
No. It is black letter law that a denial of cert says nothing whatsoever about the case.
Of course it does.
When and where did you get your legal training, if any, BCD? Denial of a petition for writ of certiorari means nothing of precedential value.
Do you know what else means nothing? Your ipse dixit pronouncements.
Baking, si. Decorating, no.
"without an expressive component"
Words are often put on cakes.
Yes. For all those saying creating wedding cakes is not expressive, would you agree that writing "Congratulations to X and Y" is expressive?
Merely placing words on a cake does not bring creation of the cake within the ambit of First Amendment protected speech. As I have written upthread, SCOTUS has explicitly opined, "We cannot accept the view that an apparently limitless variety of conduct can be labeled 'speech' whenever the person engaging in the conduct intends thereby to express an idea." United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367, 376 (1968).
So writing "Congratulations Adam and Steve" is not speech.
That's absurd, and nothing in O'Brien supports that conclusion.
I could show you three cakes, and tell you one is a birthday cake, one is a wedding cake, and one is a gender-reveal cake, and I bet you would be able to pick out all three with no problems. This would not be possible if there were no expressive component.
Because website design is words, and cake is batter.
(To be clear, when we're talking about "website design" here it doesn't simply mean mechanically coding a website in HTML and CSS and such. It means actually preparing the content of the website.)
"Cake is batter."
So at your child's wedding if the baker just plops a bunch of batter down on platter, you would be fine with that, right?
Well, I'm not a culinary expert, but I'd hope they'd actually bake it.
OK. A baked blob of cake. That would satisfy you?
The oral argument had some wild and woolly hypotheticals. While they were highly entertaining, I don’t think this case really depends on them. I think the essential question is whether wedding web site design is or isn’t speech. And I don’t think the answer to that really depends on the various hypotheticals that were posed.
I mean, it largely depends on what kind of business it is. There's a difference between a "hand-crafted" website that closers to a commissioned piece of art and someone swapping out a few names and a photo on a stock template.
But since the wedding website business in question is purely hypothetical, hypotheticals is all they've got.
But like the "I just want to pray after a game" dude, this case seems rather unconcerned with the facts of the matter, and more concerned with how it makes conservatives feel.
And I suspect that if this woman wins, you'll see a similar result: no interest in the job they "fought" so hard for.
The three Dems will take that position if there’s an advantage to doing that. Or the exact opposite position if there’s an advantage that way.
I cannot believe that a free nation would compel a Jewish florist to construct a symbol of Christ’s resurrection—on pain of losing the right to be a florist.
Jews hate Jesus, why do so many Evangelicals think Jews and Christians are on the same side of things and so blindly support them and Israel?
P.S. we found out recently that Jews are the top of the pyramid, and no one, not even Blacks (who until 2022, were worshipped in the USA) can say anything about them.
Uh, Jews generally deny that Jesus is the Messiah. Some would allow that he was a nice guy with some good things to say, until followers distorted his "true" message. It's not uniformly a case of subjective hatred.
And if you're referring to the artist formerly known as Kanye West, I think he is particularly vulnerable because of his MAGA proclivities. Also you don't have to be Jewish to oppose outright praise of Hitler.
'We Curse Christianity Three Times a Day': Can Jews and Christians Truly Reconcile?
Yikes-a-rooni!
As proof that "Jews hate Jesus" that headline in Haaretz doesn't cut it, I'm reasonably sure that the "we" in question isn't, e.g., Haaretz.
Colorado's position is just a formalization of 'hate speech is not protected by the 1st amendment'.
And "hate speech" is any speech they don’t like.
which is what they meant by "legal norms."
Like I said above, there were plenty of "legal norms" in USSR.
Bigots have rights, too.
But not the right to expect decent people to believe that a cloak of religion improves bigotry, or transforms bigotry into anything other than bigotry.
Carry on, clingers.
So when Barack Obama talked about a "typical white person" or exposed his kids to Jeremiah Wright (read his comments on Natalee Holloway), it was all good, right?
Ah, but you see, white people aren't "oppressed"! So it's A-OK to hate on them! Everyone does it!
(And when parents object to schools doing it, the Attorney General sics the FBI on them!)
These are your people, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason you find yourselves at the disaffected, bigoted, right-wing fringe of modern American legal academia.
Whereas you're stinking up the very center of modern American legal academia.
Or would if you stopped spending all your time typing up repetitive drivel long enough to get out of your Depends.
The gay web designer thing doesn't work. What a perversion for a gay to say that a true marriage has something perverse to it that forbids him in conscience to support it.
Of course it works. Perversion is the specialty of "gays". Are we supposed to believe there are limits?
The judicial conception of speech expanded considerably in the 20th century. At that century’s beginning, it was well established that mere entertainment wasn’t speech. Activities like bear-baiting, fortune-telling, and circuses were classified and regulated (and often prohibited) as conduct, not speech. And based on that understanding, movies were classified as entertainment and hence not speech at all until well into the 20th century. Issues like whether the government could ban pornograph movies weren’t even questions until after that reclassification had been made.
Throughout the 20th century, liberals favored as expansive a conception of speech as possible.
We are getting, I think for the first time, circumstances where the country’s left is starting to have second thoughts about whether the judiciary’s definition of speech has been too expansive. The cultural right has always had misgivings about this. Perhaps the coourt’s wrestling with whether nudity is speech in the 1990s represented a sort of high water mark for expansiveness.
Do we classify too much as speech? We might. While I think web sites take the social place of pamphlets and such which were long regarded as speech, I doubt cake decorating would have been considered speech at any point in the nation’s history prior to the 2nd half of the 20th century.
We might want to formulate a definition of speech – a consistent one, and one applying to both sides and not based solely for what is most convenient for what one side thinks the end of justice – that is slightly more well-defined. Just because something is a way to “express yourself” doesn’t make it speech.
After all, political assissinations are perhaps the most direct way possible to “send a message.” So were Don Carleone’s various methods. But while they are definitely a way to express oneself, that doesn’t make them speech.
You’ve hit on a topic that scholars like Jud Campbell have recently begun to flesh out. The conservatives have done their own capitalizing on the expansion of what is “speech”–maybe the academics on the right have always had misgivings about it, but it certainly hasn’t stopped right-leaning politicians and speakers from using it to their advantage if there’s no indication that the legal tides are going to drastically change back from a one-way ratchet.
http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2022/12/of-free-speech-non-discrimination-and.html?m=1
https://originalismblog.typepad.com/the-originalism-blog/2022/12/eric-segall-on-originalism-and-303-creativemichael-ramsey.html
As a 3L looking into public interest litigation as an immediate, short-term path out of law school, that’s the kind of opportunism that makes me wary of looking for work at free-speech organizations. The Amend. I course I’ve recently and the doctrines I’ve learned developed over the years seems to solidify my own misgivings about the current state of the law in terms of what “speech” is (or ought) to be interpreted as.
At some point, I feel as though this legal debate dissolves into a policy-oriented one over the validity, desirability, and scope of public accommodations/common carrier laws. It'll be interesting to see if similar questions come up in the realm of Free Exercise that the Court is willing to take--but given the Court's denial of the free speech question, it looks like a longer way off.
Reader Y,
You have dug down to the core of the problem.
With the drive to declare all behavior speech, one by one groups are coming to the opinion "but THAT behavior is NOT what we meant by speech."
Thus, the courts are driven square into the position of either calling all behavior speech OR just deciding based on what political outcome that they favor.
Don - I agree that there should be laws against discrimination based on race and sex.
But at the same time, the case is really more basic - about freedom and liberty.
Can the government compel individuals to perform work or services they dont wish to perform.
Can the government compel a person (employed or unemployed ) to work for Walmar, McDonalds , boeing.
303 Creative is not about whether protections for LGBT people will be dampened. The decision will apply across the board.
I don't think this is entirely clear. "Across the board" would mean that websites for interracial marriages could be declined, photographing black people could be declined, providing a cake for a Republican's birthday party could be declined, etc.
That's probably the right answer, but a lot of the court seemed a little scared of going that far and were flirting with using "the promise of Obergefell" to carve out anti-gay-marriage speech as especially protected.
I really hope that doesn't happen but it's in the cards.
I don't suppose we could get a reversal of Obergefell?
I would *so* love to see the reaction to that.....
Whether Obergefell should be reversed has not been litigated in the courts below. Then again, whether Roe v. Wade should be reversed was not litigated in the lower federal courts in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization.
I'm not aware of any cases currently being litigated that even could be used to overturn Obergfell, the general consensus, even among conservatives, that its a done deal and there is no concerted effort to overturn it.
I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Clarence Thomas in his Dobbs concurring opinion said the quiet part out loud.
The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in September upheld the district court’s grant of partial summary judgment against Kimberly Jean Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis for her refusal as county clerk to issue marriage licenses to two same sex couples, opinion that qualified immunity does not shield her from damages liability. https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/22-5260/22-5260-2022-09-29.pdf?ts=1664478068 SCOTUS could use that case as a vehicle to reconsider Obergefell v. Hodges.
When certiorari was denied on October 5, 2020 regarding the denial of qualified immunity at the pleading stage of that lawsuit, Justice Thomas, joined by Justice Alito, issued a statement criticizing the reasoning of Obergefell. Since that time Amy Coney Bear It has joined the Court, and all bets are off.
I did not say I was sure of anything, only that I was not aware of any cases (and I was not in fact aware that case was still active)
And yes, Thomas did say he wants to revisit Obergfell, however it's telling that no one else signed on to his concurrence in Dobbs. One case and one justice does not a "concerted effort" make.
By "a lot of the court," I think you mean Alito. I found it disturbing that he wants the First Amendment to distinguish between opposition to same-sex marriage and interracial marriage. Talk about viewpoint discrimination. Yuch!
Cite? Because I’m not buying that.
During oral arguments, there was discussion about whether a Santa Clause who would only take photos with white kids can be compelled by anti-discrimination laws to take photos with black kids. Smith’s attorney argued in favor of the compulsion that:
She was then interrupted by Alito who appeared to endorse her view:
Later on when discussing the same hypothetical with the state’s attorney, Alito said:
Yes, that is squishy. The two are the same. At least legally. Factually, it is notable that there have never been cases where photographers, cake bakers or web designers had an issue with interracial marriage, even though until Loving v. Virginia it was illegal in some states.
How about wedding venues?
Mississippi, 2019. Wedding venue was all "race mixing is against god, go elsewhere". They changed their mind after the articles started, and no ADF ran to their rescue.
Interfaith refusal? Illinois 2016. Refused because the bride was Jewish and the groom Christian. Sued by ACLU, can't find a resolution.
Just because you don't hear about these cases doesn't mean they don't happen. Also, it doesn't help that there's no ADF-like group that's going to swoop in and champion racists and anti-semites.
Conveniently not enough information to look up either of those cases for ourselves.
Duckduckgo on the text of the third paragraph turns up this:https://www.jta.org/2016/05/25/united-states/interfaith-couple-files-complaint-against-illinois-hotel-owner-who-refused-to-host-wedding
Not bothering is not the same as “not enough information to look up”.
I am btw all in favor of a "Santa Claus" being able to decline to take pictures with Black kiddies without being sued even if his is a commercial enterprise. I think he'd be being a shit, but that's a different question.
A lot of the court was disturbed by the hypotheticals. I’ll accept your reporting that only Alito endorsed actually drawing the line there.
That "Alito endorsed actually drawing the line there" is exactly what Josh correctly identified a viewpoint discrimination.
...or excluding minorities from the "good" church in town? Singing hymns is expressive too and they wouldn't want to send the wrong message, right?
...or an electrician refusing to wire a light bar in a gay club?
...or a liquor store refusing to sell "plantation" rum to white people (only) because doing so would convey a nasty message?
...or a white private tutor refusing to teach Black kids (only) the Malcom X material because the tutor doesn't want to encourage "bad ideas?"
"…or a white private tutor refusing to teach Black kids (only) the Malcom X material because the tutor doesn’t want to encourage “bad ideas?”
That actually would come under "academic freedom" and *I* would refuse to do it because I would insist on instead teaching the speeches of Dr. MLK2. And the writings of Booker T. Washington.
Of course, I would do this independent of the student(s) race.
Separate and unequal in the name of academic freedom? Got it.
My hypothetical was that only the white kids get Malcolm X, and not black kids.
No, you don't "get it".
He explicitly distinguished between what he would do and your hypothetical.
In your hypothetical the Black parents might have a tort if the private tutor misrepresented the nature of his services, but the government has no business dictating his choice of curriculum even if it varies according to the race of his pupils.
That said, I have no patience for bogus claims like "academic freedom". Either we all have a right or no one does.
Libs just want to bayonet the wounded after victory.
Most website designers or bakers, even if they oppose gay "marriage", are not in a position to decline business or will not want to risk "tolerant" libs coming after them on social media or boycotts. A handful of people at most will decline a handful of service but "tolerant" libs can suffer no heresy from their religious beliefs.
Conservatives are bringing this case, Bob. Liberals have done nothing.
But I thought bayonetting the wounded is good political practice, why are you so put out, Mr. no morality in politics?
No, conservatives are defending freedom of speech. It was the state of Colorado, or liberals, who brought this case by going after the web designer. How can we have any conversation with liberals over this when they can’t even get the basics right?
" No, conservatives are defending freedom of speech. "
The Volokh Conspiracy - which repeatedly imposes viewpoint-driven censorship from the right -- is an odd forum at which to claim that conservatives defend freedom of speech.
Carry on, clingers.
Uh, the State of Colorado is not going after the web designer. This is a civil lawsuit brought by a plaintiff who has never offered her wedding-related services but avers that she intends to do so in the future. The Plaintiff claims that she intends to offer wedding websites that celebrate opposite-sex marriages but intends to refuse to create similar websites that celebrate same-sex marriages. 303 Creative, et al. v. Elenis, et al., No. 19-1413 (10th Cir. 2021), https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca10/19-1413/19-1413-2021-07-26.html
Maybe don't come in so hot when you're flat wrong.
Colorado is the defendant here. Lorie Smith is suing preemptively.
S_0,
"suing preemptively"
Honest question: How is that even allowable? Lorie Smith has suffered no injury.
My question too.
Not sure, but standing was given by the district and circuit courts.
I suspect SCOTUS will use that as a reason to punt again.
We addressed this before. If you have a real fear, founded in objective fact, that the State will enforce an unconstitutional law against you, you have standing to bring the case. Read the 10th Circuit opinion, that found that Article III was satisfied.
She already has a web design business. She wants to expand that to wedding websites. Problem is, her religion tells her she cannot design wedding websites for SSMs. So if she expands, she will be put into a position where the state — or a gay couple looking to make a point, as has happened before — may well sue her. She wants a judicial decision that she can proceed. That’s a pretty standard scenario for a declaratory judgment. IP law (which I practice) has them all the time.
You don't need to play the rube about what's going on here. The Supreme Court isn't reading your comments.
YEs, the 10th Circuit that found standing is a bunch of rubes.
Why don't you go into the corner and let the adults discuss.
She has suffered a constitutional injury: she is unable to speak the message she wants because of the risk of punishment by the state.
From the 10th Circuit opinion:
“Appellants have sufficiently demonstrated both an intent to provide graphic and web design services to the public in a manner that exposes them to CADA liability, and a credible threat that Colorado will prosecute them under that statute.” 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis, No. 19-1413, 9 (10th Cir. Jul. 26, 2021)
Among other things, the opinion later cited Masterpiece Cakeshop as one of the reasons the threat of prosecution was credible.
Exodus 22.2
Seems more like they're defending homophobia.
That's so ridiculous. One can oppose SSM and not be homophobic.
No you can't.
Actually you CAN and here is how — marriage is a license (which it *is*) to create children. It is how society ensures that the father will support the mother while pregnant and then that both will support the child.
If you wanted to require fertility tests for marriage, I could live with that. (We used to require STD tests.) And as to old people getting married, read your Bible -- there is evidence of the occasional post-menopausal pregnancy occurring...
Uh, unmarried parents are just as obligated to support their children as married parents are.
Creating children requires no license.
The only reason to do something so weird and pointless would be homophobia.
What's wrong with defending someone's right to be homophobic?
I love people who confidently speak without knowing any of the facts. The state of Colorado — which is not, incidentally, coterminous with "liberals" — did not bring this case and did not go after the web designer.
The State of Colorado did go after others in similar situations and has the same law on the books. There is no reason to think it would not do so if the web designer went ahead with what she wants to do.
And Exodus 22.2 comes to immediate mind.
"Liberals have done nothing."
They went after Jack the Baker repeatedly, she's just being proactive.
Good thing that ADF found a client that was willing to go to court to argue that she should be able to advertise "no gays allowed".
Nope, not one to fly under the radar and decline gays as they come, she wants an active message "NO HOMOS: straight clients only".
Good comment. Other than the fact that it's a complete lie and fabrication, good comment.
The web designer here, like every business that has litigated this situation, has no issue with offering their services to gays. Just not in a way that they have to create a message they strongly disagree with.
Newsflash: gay people do things other than get married. They operate businesses. They have birthday parties. They go on vacations. They buy real estate to live in, or rent out. They buy and sell clothing, vehicles and pet supplies. All of which this web designer would willingly service, whether or the client was gay or not.
Nah. She's been very forthright on this. She wants her hypothetical wedding website business to advertise that it won't serve gay clients.
You mean it won't do designs for gay events.
Has she actually gone on record is saying she will not design a web site for a homosexual who wanted a site to celebrate a friend's opposite-sex wedding?
Conversely, has she gone on record as to be willing to design a web site for a heterosexual who wanted a site to celebrate a friend's same-sex wedding?
From her main brief:
You are utterly full of it.
Those “truths of the Bible” are silly, childish fairy tales that have become the refuge of ignorant bigots in a modern, improving America that is moving past superstition and the associated gullibility at a handy pace.
Carry on, clingers. Until replacement.
Talk about someone being full of shit and Artie hears his name called.
McConnell suggests some of the hypotheticals can be discarded as "bizarre".
This is true, but the unstated reason is that personal belief trumps the constitution. Any case where the court deems the situation to be "bizarre" will yield a judgement for the non-bizarre side.
Based on belief, not what the principles of applying the constitution might yield.
For the reasons expressed on this blog last spring by Professor Dale Carpenter, I hope that SCOTUS reverses the Tenth Circuit in this case. https://reason.com/volokh/2022/05/31/government-cant-compel-the-creation-of-wedding-websites/ I also hope that the Court will confine its opinion to compelled speech, without undermining public accommodations anti-discrimination regulations in general.
It might be argued that homosexuality fails the categorical imperative, and should therefore be suppressed. That is to say, if everyone was exclusively same-sex attracted, that would be the end of the human species.
In the cautionary tale of Sodom and Gomorrah implies this is possible, because virtually every man was homosexual. However, with the advantage of the modern historical record, we know this has never happened to a society.
And if everyone was exclusively male, that would be the end of the human species. Therefore males should be suppressed, yes?
Or, y'know, that's an unrealistic hypothetical and anyone who takes is seriously is just a bigot.
Actually, there very well might also be a sociological shift in the number of people who choose to have male verses female offspring.
Some people, sure. Straight folk always seem overly concerned about the sex of their children.
But enough people to matter? That's the reach that makes you look foolish.
who's laughing now?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women_of_China
How is what willing adults do with each other in private any of the government's freaking business? If you will indulge me a personal example, for the first ten years of my married life my then-wife and I committed a felony punishable by imprisonment for not less than five and not more than fifteen years each time we engaged in oral sex. See, Rose v. Locke, 423 U.S. 48 (1975) (the "crime against nature" statute, which included no marital exception, was repealed in 1989 as part of a complete revision of the criminal code). What business was that of the State of Tennessee?
And FWIW, plenty of same sex attracted people regularly engage in opposite sex copulation.
You are right. If the conscious of a society becomes directed towards antinatalism, it is none of the governments interest. However, a precipitous drop in population might conceivably be a threat to national security.
I mean, the only reason I haven't seriously looked at surrogacy yet† is because it's pricey.
If the government was down for subsidizing that, I'd be down to seriously look at it.
Which is to say... you'll know the government is actually worried about declining population when it ramps up subsidizing birth and kids. But so long as it's more expensive to have kids then not? Then it's safe to say the government thinks it's fine.
________
†Ignoring adoption for the moment, as that doesn't lead to population growth.
Oh cool, this McConnell guy is surprised that discrimination on the basis that a couple is inter-faith is also discrimination on the basis of religion.
Why don't you try that with race: is discriminating against Clarence and Gini Thomas on the basis of them being an interracial couple discrimination on the basis of race?
You're kidding, right? Even if you handwave the government pressure that led to the Hayes Code and the Comic Code Authority, the US's history of stifling organizing efforts by LGBT groups, including by censoring mail, refusing to let magazines go through, and so-on, is well-documented, even if not well-known. Further, this is precisely what DeSantis is trying to do in Florida. Between his Don't Say Gay bill which is actively leading to all sorts of censorship and the "Stop Woke" act (which again, leading to censorship), he is actively trying to suppress speech and views he doesn't like.
If you're right (you're not), then it's because the ADF failed at their objective. You gotta remember, there is no victim here. This was a preemptive lawsuit because the ADF wanted another case to take to the SCOTUS since it wasn't looking good for the other ones in the pipeline. If this does not chip away at protections for LGBT folks, then ADF has failed in their objective.
Sorry Volokh, but your friend McConnel is an idiot. May be brilliant in other regards, but an absolute dunderhead on this one.
"You gotta remember, there is no victim here. "
I don't know about the rest of your comment. But this one line is the key point.
If there was no victim, 393 Creative would lack standing.
Not at the Clinger Court.
There really is no victim.
The "wedding site" buisness? Doesn't exist and never has. It's purely hypothetical. Gay customers that were refused? don't exist. If any gay person has ever tried (successful or not) to get a website from this woman, no one knows about it.
She sued the state pre-emptively because --if you believe her spiel-- she wanted to expand her business into wedding sites, but felt that making sites for gay couples was something she couldn't do. So she just so happened to meet up with the ADF and sued the state of Colorado to declare that she had a first amendment right to violate the state's non-discrimination law.
Note: she has not been sued by anyone. No one has made a complaint about her. There are no fines hanging over her head. There are no judgements against her. If she 100% loses at the SCOTUS, the consequences is that she wasted years of her life, and nothing more.
This entire case is based on speculation and hypotheticals, right down to the imaginary wedding site business.
So yeah, if this case seems a bit heavy on hypotheticals, it's because it started that way, with a hypothetical business and an imaginary victim.
"precisely what DeSantis is trying to do in Florida"
Stop lying.
Unstated is the idea of creating super citizens with more rights than others. Protected classes become the super citizens. I sure think I hear that theme in the government's arguments.
So perhaps our strategy should be to get angry old white men declared as a protected class.
Age† and race are already protected classes, so you're 2/3rds there already!
________
†Well, when you're over 40 anyway. Discrimination on the basis of youth is perfectly legal. It's just when you're discriminating because someone is old that it's disallowed.
According to the theory of egalitarian syndrome, a democratic majority will eventually express a preference counter to the super citizens, and the legal precedent of protected classes will be overturned.
Just hang out on the bandwagon. This SCOTUS is on the road to holding that genuine religious belief trumps state law.
You don't even have to stay angry!
Seems to me there’s no reason to involve religion or the first amendment in this at all, because the entire case could be resolved simply by ruling that “public accommodation” refers only to those goods and services that are identically offered to all, alike.
So: Are you offering a customized service different for each client, or are your offering the same thing to any takers? If customized, you have the right of refusal, on the basis of it being your own expression. If not, you don’t have the right of refusal, on the basis of truth in advertising: it was offered to all, so it must in fact be available to all.
Seems rather cut and dried to me. But then again, I do not think like a lawyer.
What if it's a tailor offering custom-made suits?
On the one hand, the suits are going to differ because customers come in all sizes. On the other, it's still going to be a suit, maybe even the same material.
What if come steakhouse customers want their meat rare, while others prefer medium?
SCOTUS cannot go there. "Public accomodation" is a term in Colorado statutory law. The Colorado courts have spoken, and what this web designer does is considered a "public accomodation." (IMO an improper expansion, but no one cares what my opinion is.)
SCOTUS has to accept Colorado courts' interpretation of Colorado law.
The challenge here is a First Amendment one, based on the US Constitution. As to that, SCOTUS has the final word.
C'mon dude, we all know that SCOTUS is only stopped by that "state courts interpret state laws" thing when they want to be stopped by it.
The moment they want to, they can (and have) over-ruled a state.
For that matter, while I think rather poorly of a great many of it's members, the SCOTUS justices aren't dumb. If they want a ruling that basically forces Colorado to reinterpret it's law without quite forcing them to do so, they can pull it off.
That this would necessarily set precedent for other states and federal laws would just be icing on the cake.
Which is to say... if they want to go down that route, they can. Have a bit more faith in their creativity.
Please provide an example when SCOTUS has interpreted state law against the interpretation of the courts of that state.
Modern, educated, reasoning Americans should recognize the important American progress reflected by this case: Our vestigial bigots and superstitious gay-bashers have been reduced to groveling for special exemptions creating a limited safe space in which they can practice their bigotry and ignorance. The liberal-libertarian mainstream has won, and the prudish, stale-thinking conservatives have lost, the American culture war. That modern mainstream is positioned to continue to shape our national progress toward reason, inclusiveness, education, modernity, and science -- against the wishes and efforts of conservatives who prefer superstition, insularity, backwardness, dogma, and bigotry.
And yet the supposedly enlightened feel the need to use the power of the state to force others to accept their POV. If you have been so succesful in the culture wars, why do you need the state's power?
I would look to establishment clause jurisprudence.
A state is not allowed, under establishment clause jurisprudence, to design a web site to promote religious ideas, beliefs, or ceremonies. It therefore follows, that it can not require private individuals to offer to to design web sites to promote religious ideas, beliefs, or ceremonies.
Given this, it is easy to decide the merits should there be no jurisdictional defects.
The church of not being anti-gay marriage is not really a religion for Establishment Claus purposes.
Too many nested negatives, for one thing.
How is the state requiring a web site designer to offer to design a site to celebrate a Catholic baptism different from a state requiring a web site designer to offer to design a site to celebrate a same-sex wedding?
One is Catholic, the other could be any faith.
I think that if it's really design, as seems the case here, it is indeed protected expressive association.
Establishment Clause is as crazy as the 13th Amendment.
Firstly, this appellant went out of her way to NOT argue free exercise. She wanted a free speech-rooted ruling.
Second, the state is not compelling anyone. It is telling market participants that they cannot discriminate among clients if the requested services are equivalent. It's the web designer who is saying the identity of the customer justifies non-equivalent service. It's not even an issue of viewpoint; she offers the same service to her preferred customers.
Has she admitted that she would refuse to design a web site for a homosexual who wanted a site to celebrate a friend's opposite-sex wedding?
Has she admitted she would design a web site for a heterosexual who wanted to celebrate a friend's sane-sex wedding?
"Firstly, this appellant went out of her way to NOT argue free exercise. She wanted a free speech-rooted ruling."
The petitioner sought certiorari including a free exercise claim. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21272184-303-creative-llc-v-elenis-petition SCOTUS granted cert, limited to the question of whether applying a public-accommodation law to compel an artist to speak or stay silent violates the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment.
The cert petition also sought unsuccessfully to overrule Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990).
Thank you, I stand corrected. Apparently, the court limited the issue and not the appellant.
PB&J suggested today that "It's a Wonderful Life" is some sort of White Supremacist dog whistle in some bizarre CRT hypothetical.
Do you think this racist moron will be the first SCOTUS justice successfully impeached and removed from the bench?
What would you expect from the dimmest bulb in the SC pack?
Hope the don't decide to cancel the movie.
You must be thinking of an alternative Universe where Barry Hussein, who was the one candidate in 2008 Opposing Gay Marriage, is appointed to the Surpreme Court. His moronic-ness needs no further elucidation ("Penn State Nittily Lions" "Navy Hospital Corpse-man") and I challenge you to find indisputable audio evidence of another POTUS saying "Nigger" (in Tricky Penis's thousands of hours of tapes, not a single N-word, of course he knew he was being taped)
here's the BHO Version (Spoiler alert, also says the Bee-Otch Word)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgYIBG0fYq4
Frank "always buys my Bee-otch Fries"
Prof. McConnell makes valid points.
No, of course an artist (or a web designer) shouldn’t be compelled to express something they don’t believe. I’d go further and get rid of (most) “public accommodation” laws. Of the two examples given, the first one (electricity) makes sense. My electric company is the only one serving my area; if they don’t like the color of my skin, I’m stuck. But the second example (hotel rooms) doesn’t. No hotel (or hotel chain) has a monopoly. Same with restaurants (or restaurant chains), same with stores (or store chains). I say: if they want to discriminate (on any basis), let them.
But this country tried that. It worked out pretty poorly.
So you think there has been no cultural change? The only thing holding back rampant discrimination and lynch mobs is the fear of running afoul of anti-discrimination laws?
I find this viewpoint fascinating, because if I believed we had made no cultural progress whatsoever in the last 150 years I would no longer be living in this country, and it makes me wonder what keeps you here.
I think there are some places that would like nothing better than not to let blacks in, yes.
Cultural progress generally does not mean there are no pockets of bigotry.
How many such places? I mean private places (like a hotel), not municipalities, which are certainly state actors and bound by the 14th Amendment.
If the Civil Rights Act were repealed, the vast majority of private actors would not change anything. And the few who would would find themselves the victims of boycotts, intense criticism and loss of business. Money talks, BS walks.
This blog itself is full of examples you are wrong.
Well, I guess that settles it.
Of course it doesn't - this is a future hypothetical.
But this blog increasingly shows that human nature is not quite as awesome as BL says it is, at least when it comes to the drive to discriminate against certain demographics.
This blog is run by hotel owners and restaurant operators? Wow, they sure have a lot of time on their hands.
Your comments are getting dumber each time.
You're arguing that hotel owners and restaurant operators are a cut above everyone else?
That's...an interesting way to take things.
Yet another silly comment. Have you ever actually left the freshman BS club?
Newsflash: businesses, including hotels and restaurants, exist for one main purpose. Making money. Invidious discrimination will in the vast majority of cases mean losing money, usually lots of money.
Not to mention that even 100 racist posters on this blog (and I dont think there even that many) are hardly representative of the populace at large nor business owners in particular.
So I repeat, if the Civil Rights Act were repealed, in the vast majority of cases, it would make no difference. African Americans would still be able to use restaurants, hotels and other public accomodations.
You are making 2 claims:
1) Bigotry is no longer much of a thing in America. Ignore the VC, apparently, they're not representative of America. Well, show your work there, chief! Lotsa examples all over the place of anti-black, anti-Jew, even anti-women assholes.
2) Profits will overcome bigotry.
Yet again, there are *tons* of examples of businesses making other choices than the profit maximizing one. And not getting out of the market because their customers do the same thing.
The bigotry of the Jim Crow era is a great example of that, and such bigots are still around today, even if you try and minimize them.
But if you don’t like bigotry, there are plenty of other examples of business judgement not being about profit maximization. Mostly with private businesses. Remember corporate citizenship? Or Hobby Lobby? Or environmental conservation.
This market uber allies idea you have is naïve in the extreme about human nature. Typical libertarian smoothing of reality.
Sarcastro: this won't convince you, but FWIW, I would gladly give you 100 to 1 odds on a serious money bet that repealing the public accommodation laws would not lead to a resurrection of Jim Crow, or anything close. I'll grant that someone somewhere would put up a 'No Blacks' sign on their restaurant, shortly before going bankrupt, but that would be 'man bites dog' news.
Remember the ??Maine?? restaurant owner who briefly made the news by putting up a sign saying AR-15 owners weren't welcome to dine there? There are A)lots of people, and presumably business owners, who don't like AR-15s, and B)it's perfectly legal to exclude them, but businesses - with that exception - don't. Excluding paying customers is a luxury not many businesses can afford.
I currently live in a red area. Right after the 2016 election a good friend from a deep blue area (where I used to live) asked whether I thought he should emigrate before Trump started sending people like him to the camps. That's the inverse of Brett's ridiculous 'the Dems will be sending us to the camps soon' nonsense from a few days ago. My street was full of cars with 'Nobama' and 'HE>I' stickers, but it's not full of people who are ready to - or who would tolerate - sending the libs to camps. And they wouldn't exclude blacks from their businesses - or homes - or tolerate people who would. If you think that would happen, I think you need to get out more.
Neither of us knows the future, but I don't think it's a risk worth taking.
No, I don't think the entire South would go full segregation or anything, but I do think there would be some pretty bad behavior. Humans follow leadership and know permission when they see it.
Excluding paying customers is a luxury not many businesses can afford.
This is just not true. It wasn't true in Jim Crow, and it isn't true today. Performative nonsense at the expense of turning away some margin of customers is absolutely a thing small businesses do.
Absaroka, I would point to Justice Ginsburg's comment on the Court's decision striking pre-clearance provisions from the Voting Rights Act in the Shelby County case.
Chief Justice Roberts held that the “blight of racial discrimination in voting” that had “infected the electoral process in parts of our country for nearly a century,” and which the act was designed to address, had been ameliorated by 2013.
Ginsburg retorted that, “Throwing out preclearance when it has worked and is continuing to work to stop discriminatory changes is like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet."
Sure enough, less than 10 years later we see arbitrary voting restrictions across the South and elsewhere. Just because discrimination is reduced, doesn't mean laws aren't helping to keep it there.
"This is just not true. It wasn’t true in Jim Crow, and it isn’t true today."
1)In the Jim Crow era, much segregation was mandated by law
2)When it wasn't, the situation facing an unprejudiced business owner was not 'am I giving up 13% of my business by not serving blacks'[1]. It would be 'if I let blacks eat in the white dining room, I will lose the 87% of my business that is white, plus have the KKK firebomb me (a crime which the sheriff will be totally unable to solve), plus my wife will lose her job as a schoolteacher, plus my kids will get beaten up at school.'
You and I just fundamentally disagree whether that is likely to recur.
[1]n.b., it was common for e.g. a restaurant to e.g. serve blacks outside the back door, so you might not even lose all 13% (or whatever). The Montgomery bus system had a majority black ridership, even though they had to ride in the back.
========
Reallynotbob: that's a great quote. OTOH, you don't want to keep your umbrella up long after the rain has stopped. What would you think of sunsetting such laws after some number of decades, and only reinstating them if it is still raining? Is there any number of decades or centuries after which you'd be willing to conduct the experiment?
I don't buy your argument - de facto discrimination was not just done out of fear, but also out of hate.
It is *fun* to join the in-group in excluding an out-group.
You and I just fundamentally disagree whether that is likely to recur.
I think you're playing fast and loose with my thesis - I don't think the scale would be the same, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen at all.
Bottom line, those saying that ending civil rights laws is costless seem to me to be selling something about libertarian ideals of human nature that I'm not buying in the real world. FWIW, I don't buy many political philosophies as panaceas in the real world.
Plenty of great humans out there, plenty of awful ones. We should be able to acknowledge both.
" those saying that ending civil rights laws is costless"
To be clear, ending them wouldn't be costless - but maintaining them isn't free either. My thesis is I think at some point the cost of maintaining them exceeds the cost of ending them.
Case in point: I once worked at a place funded by grants. They had had a string of grants not come through, and everyone was looking at the budget and payroll. If a grant didn't come through soon, someone was going to get laid off.
There were three people who were candidates for the sacrifice - two men and one woman. By any objective criteria, the woman would get the chop - she was both less competent and less productive. She spent a couple of months loudly proclaiming that if she was laid off she would sue for sex discrimination. Happily a grant came through and no one got laid off.
But put yourself in the employer's seat. That is a bona fide risk. Suppose you have two applicants, identical as far as you can tell. Both seem a little risky to you, as in they might or might not work out, but alas no perfect candidates have applied. One is in a protected class. If you hire Mr. Not-Protected and he doesn't work out, no problem, you send him on his way. But if you hire Ms. Protected and she doesn't work out, sending her on her way risks a lawsuit. In this case the laws that you want to protect her are actually harming her. These are real costs, both to society *and to her*.
Reasonable people can disagree with the relative costs and benefits - apparently we do - but don't count the benefits and neglect the costs.
We sort of have a natural test in existence already: anti-gay discrimination is legal in some states and illegal in others. Obviously it's harder to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation than race, since one is far more obvious than the other. (Race is the more obvious one, in case that wasn't clear.) But there are still plenty of cases where people know. There's got to be some data.
I agree on the first point. But I haven't seen a lot of people saying that they were boycotting Elane Photography or Sweet Cakes by Melissa or Masterpiece Cakeshop because of the stances taken by those businesses.
If a store put up a sign saying, "No blacks," there would be a huge backlash. (But of course that would be so clearly illegal it would be dealt with legally in 15 minutes.) But if a store simply acted in such a way that some black customers said they felt discriminated against or mistreated or unwelcome, you think most people wouldn't just shrug and say, "Whatever?" (I mean, obviously on Oberlin's campus it would be different.)
No, businesses exist for multiple purposes. Especially small businesses. Do I want my law firm to make money? Damn skippy. But I won't take cases that I find distasteful (as a matter of principle, I mean, not just that they're too much work or something), even if I think they can be lucrative.
Again, we're talking right here in this thread about businesses turning away customers because of their anti-gay views.
And while larger businesses are unlikely to have such personal motivations — WalMart is probably not interested in racism or homophobia — WalMart doesn't make decisions; individual actors do. (I mean, obviously there are corporate decisions. Duh. But if the question is dealing with an individual job applicant or customer, it's a store manager who's the relevant actor. And the store manager may care more about discrimination than a business owner, since it's not his money invested in the business.)
Fair points, DMN.
And thanks to all for a nuanced, reasonable discussion.
Are you referring to Democrat laws like Jim Crow?
The bet answer probably requires some nuance and balancing -- qualities to which comment sections are notoriously allergic.
But if we're drawing bright lines, why not use the meaningful distinction between "works for hire" (to which anti-discrimination rules and public accommodation law should apply) and "the artistic expression of one's own views" (to which the should not)? In other words, it seems to me the 1A protection for one's own expression need not sweep away the rules that apply to when one commoditizes one's talents in the marketplace.
This seems like a reasonable approach to me. Prof. McConnell's objection to this is, “It is essential to artistic freedom that artists have the right to choose their own subject and their own perspective—even if other people find their work shocking.” But that's not much of an objection, because he doesn't explain how this applies to works for hire, where it is the client who determines the subject and the perspective.
Hypotheticals: Man takes passport photos for money. Refuses to photograph Black people. Artistic expression? Discrimination okay?
Lady takes photographs of people at the park with her pet llama for money. Refuses to photograph perceived Muslims. Okay?
Company sells rides on elephant at zoo for money. Allows anyone to ride. Sells photos of the ride for additional $5. Won't offer the photos to orthodox Jews.
Clown sells face painting to kids for $10. Won't paint girls. Discrimination?
Tattoo artist won't sell tattoos to gay people.
Karaoke club won't let white people sing.
Art school won't teach non-whites.
The notion of "expression" swallows the rule.
None of those are expressive unless something additional is added to the story.
For example, “photographer refuses to photograph Muslim-dressed woman by llama holding sign saying ‘I like to fuck llamas’”, that would be expressive and an example of why the photographer needs to be able to decline some requests.
This is the "Black Santa" hypothetical Alito and Kagan were discussing. Letting a White Santa exclude Black children from the mall photo line was "expressive" enough that Waggoner said it would be an "edge case." Alito altered the hypothetical to ask about a Black Santa excluding kids in KKK hoods. The AG aptly noted that the KKK hoods add an additional element that does not implicate a protected class, like "being Black and a child" does.
Taking photographs is expressive, depending on where we put that line. Tattooing people is clearly expressive, and a tattoo artist could just as easily say "I don't want my creative art associated with homosexuals (or Blacks?)," as 303 is saying "I don't want to create art associated with same-sex marriage" (or Jewish weddings?) How do we keep the proposed expressive excuse from undermining anti-discrimination rules for the marketplace?
Taking photographs is expressive, depending on where we put that line. Tattooing people is clearly expressive, and a tattoo artist could just as easily say “I don’t want my creative art associated with homosexuals (or Blacks?),” as 303 is saying “I don’t want to create art associated with same-sex marriage” (or Jewish weddings?)
But 303 isn't saying she doesn't want her art associated with homosexuals. Rather, she's saying she doesn't want to actively participate in creating a message celebrating gay marriage.
Indeed, it seems plausible that a web designer would be adverse to creating a message which celebrated an alternative religion, particularly a religion which was seeking domination over the designer's religion.
Yes to all, this isn't Roosh-a (is this Roosh-a? this isn't Roosh-a) It's why we fought the Germans at Pearl Harbor, bombed the Japs in Schweinfurt, defeated the VC at Inchon, and the Koreans at Peleliu, the friggin 11th amendment the founding fathers left out because it was so self evident they didn't think us waterheads 250 years in the future would need it,
"The Right to be left the fuck alone"
Frank "you lookin at me?"
It's also why Alabama still flies the Union flag. The "right to be left the fuck alone" yields evil results.
What do you mean by “Okay”?
Some things are evil, but a lesser evil than using government force to address them.
Having government agents haul away a person and lock them in a cage is a pretty evil thing to do to someone. You’re going to want to weigh that against the reason you’re doing it (if you care about right and wrong).
Are any or your scenarios likely to result in cycles of violence? If not, then think really hard before you bring the government in to start the violence to begin with.
(Again, only if you care about right and wrong. If you just want to hurt people who are not like you then some of these others here will tell you a clever way you can get away with that.)
I'm not comfortable setting the standard for government intervention at "will inaction bring on a cycle of violence." Especially because we're talking about civil regulation.
In other words: I don’t fully accept 100% of your premise. Ok. Why respond at all if you’re going to be so extremely vague?
Why wouldn’t people just mind their own business and transact with others voluntarily instead of getting government enforcers involved to force transactions and servitude upon people against their will?
I cannot believe that a free nation would compel a Jewish florist to construct a symbol of Christ's resurrection—on pain of losing the right to be a florist.
A Jewish orchestral musician would lose their job if they consistently refused to play music with an explicitly Christian message - and there's lot of that in the standard repertoire of orchestras. Yes, that's not government compelling the speech. But it's government backing the employer who compels the speech. So let's not talk about what a "free nation" might do.
Ah, so unless you are allowed to do anything at all you're the oppressed victim.
That is what the right is arguing here when it comes to public accommodation laws, yes.
As my former partner would say, there is nowhere so low you can go that you cannot go lower.
Your comment is absurd.
Do you enjoy such empty rhetoric? Think it makes you look clever?
Newsflash: the Constitution gives us rights. When they are violated, we are permitted to sue. There are lots of people whose rights are violated who are not "the oppressed victim" but still prevail in their case.
The Supreme Court held that a newspaper cannot be forced to print an op-ed by state law. Miami Herald Pub. Co. v. Tornillo :: 418 U.S. 241 (1974) Was the Miami Herald an "oppressed victim." Should they have lost because, hey, what's so bad about printing a couple of op-eds?
I was impressed by Prof. McConnell’s essay. But I just listened to the oral argument in 303 and I found it baffling, and not in an “I feel insufficiently intelligent to follow this math” way. Many of the questions just did not make sense. The liberal justices grilled the petitioners on hypotheticals designed to make refusal to do the website seem vile and bigoted and then kept asking whether her client would agree to make that hypothetical website. The correct answer is obviously, “I am not sure because I have never asked my client whether she would make this newly proposed hypothetical website.” But her lawyer never gave that answer. She kept confidently answering yes or no. She even was forced to backtrack and change her “yes” to a “no” for a Justice Barrett hypo. But these are terrible questions — it is legally impossible for the answers to these questions to set the legal rule. The rule does not turn on the personal beliefs of Ms. Smith. This case turns on legal principles that do not turn on a single person’s quirks of belief. Principles such as (just to pick an example that took 40 minutes to come up) Is this website a public accommodation like the Heart of Atlanta Motel or not? (It seems to me that logically there might be multiple varieties of public accommodation, but I have never been an expert on 1st Amendment law.) Or, Why is this speech rather than conduct? Or, if you’re writing a letter dictated by someone else, are you an “artist”? (I kept expecting Netflix’s Violet Evergarden series to come up.) There were some questions on legal principles, but Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, and Barrett (oddly, three female Justices) all seemed too focused on this odd hypotheticals-based questioning instead. Hypotheticals are a very important type of question, but here they were being misused. Justice Jackson also asked many hypos, but was using her hypos more properly, although they unfortunately kept shifting.
I was impressed that the “put into the stream of commerce” concept came up: The website designer’s counsel argued that it matters that one who sells a bible book cannot object if the purchaser later burned it, because the book had been “put into the stream of commerce.” This mystical concept comes up in a lot of contexts far from the First Amendment, such as patent law’s “First Sale” doctrine.
This oral argument reminded me of the Boy Scouts of America v. Dale case. I’ve read the majority and dissenting opinions in that 5-4 decision many times, and I still have no idea what either side was talking about; I just know that five justices really wanted to rule for the Boy Scouts and four really did not, and both sides were struggling to justify their positions in legal terms.
Making good law on a court is hard work, and takes a lot of intelligence, wisdom, and skill. All too often our nine chosen robed people struggle to measure up to the near-impossible task set before them.
It is true that the case is being litigated based on a stipulation by the website designer that her website creation business is a public accommodation for purposes of the law. It was bemoaned that this was a questionable stipulation but everyone seemed to feel bound to it. I do not understand why they were taking that position. “A stipulation as to questions of law can not bind the Court.” Estate of Sanford v. Comm'r, 308 U.S. 39, 40 (1939). "Whether a particular facility is a 'public accommodation' under the ADA is a question of law," Jankey v. Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp., 14 F. Supp. 2d 1174, 1178 (C.D. Cal. 1998), and it seems like the same is true here. So the Court can reject this stipulation.
Agree with you. First Amendment cases should not turn on whether we find some expression or lack of it depolorable or accetable. If the Nazis had the right to march in Skokie, then she has the right to turn down a web design job, whether because she disapproves of SSM, or inter-racial marriage, or Judaism, or the pr-life position, or anything else.
Same sex marriage is totally gay.
Not totally. I heard of two straight ladies who got married so one could get rent control rights on the apartment the other had originally rented with her late husband.
The real problem here is the idea that you get your freedoms from the First Amendment, so that they’re limited to speech and religion, as mentioned therein, and as applied to the States through the 14A Privileges or Immunities Clause: “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” But this is a dulled and obtunded understanding of your rights as a citizen and, indeed, as a human being. Had the Bill of Rights never been passed would you then have no natural rights?
In this case no government has any right to dragoon this woman into giving expression to an opinion with which she vehemently disagrees as a condition of her finding employment in her chosen field. Whether that expression is considered "speech" or not is entirely irrelevant. Full stop.
White fragility? Have you ever seen how the Jews act or the blacks act when someone points out any facts that hurt their feelings?
Saying "white fragility" is an admission a) that you're a racist and b) that you have no real counter-argument.
... made by me is usually backed up with empiricism.
HTH
I'm not jealous of the extraordinary political and institutional power jews and blacks have. I'm flabbergasted that they have this yet somehow manage to act like perpetual victims. And I'm horrified at how much intentional harm they cause to White society. Throw the homosexuals in there and you've got three of the four Horseman.
So while feel many things about those people, "jealous" isn't one of them.
Include busibodies who want to outlaw gay sex and marriage.
Queen almathea 1 hour ago
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Who is supposed to be the ‘real bigots’ and what is the ‘personal bigotry’ they want to force everyone to engage in here?"
look in the mirror!
Jews will replace you.
Can't believe they think there's racism and antisemitism still out there...
Ah, but it seems that not taking it down was a choice;
Now We Know: While Twitter Was Busy Silencing Conservatives, It Let Child Porn Fester
They're definitely trying. All over Western Civilization, Jews are attacking and undermining the goy. Everywhere.
There is difficulty in line-drawing, but let's say someone wanted to do a production of Othello with a white person playing Othello, and an all-black cast playing everyone else, the First Amendment would protect that person, even though there was racial discrimination.
What the fuck trash did you link?
Since Elon Musk took over, Twitter has been kicking more people off its network. Except this time around it isn’t conservatives getting the boot. It’s those trafficking in child porn.
This is what the left and woke companies are freaking out about?
Intimating that the left is into child porn. Who are these assholes?
This site was started by the team that for decades had produced IBD Editorials at Investor’s Business Daily
Brett, don't link trash. I read through it, and it's just stenography from Twitter's PR team.
That's right. The producer is expressing a viewpoint and gets the benefit of 1A protection. Filling the roles is prima facia discrimination, but falls under the BFOQ exception. There's case law.
Wow, the Child Porn thang really got your Castro panties in a wad... I shudder to think what that reveals about your Id, Ego, and SuperEgo...
Wow, that really got your knickers twisted.
What I read is that censoring conservatives was enough of a priority for Twitter that they didn't have a lot of manpower leftover for going after kiddie porn. So when Musk laid off most of the employees, but told the rest to concentrate on taking down kiddie porn, they were more effective at it even with the lower manpower.
And the left got mad, not because kiddie porn was being taken down, but because conservatives weren't. And that was too high a price to pay for merely booting child pornographers.
Reuters article dated in Sept (pre-Musk):
"ome major advertisers including Dyson, Mazda, Forbes and PBS Kids have suspended their marketing campaigns or removed their ads from parts of Twitter because their promotions appeared alongside tweets soliciting child pornography, the companies told Reuters.
DIRECTV and Thoughtworks also told Reuters late on Wednesday they have paused their advertising on Twitter."
...
Of course they’re still out there. Very unfortunate. But not the government’s job to fix! Let BravoCharlie spew his antisemitism. If he owns a store, let him post a “No Jews allowed” sign. You forcing him to serve me, preventing him from badmouthing me, etc. may seem like a “progressive” and “liberal” thing to do, but it isn’t! It’s totalitarian. (And, besides, it just makes him more pissed off, which I can actually understand.)
Did a rabbi suckle your circumcised penis when you were baby and drink your baby penis blood?
Just curious.
Government can’t ‘fix’ it but, since much of it has been instiutionalised and involves severe limitations and physical risk placed on people because of who they are, it can protect the targets to some degree.
'If he owns a store, let him post a “No Jews allowed” sign'
But he won't do that. If things get to the point where it's socially acceptable to do that, it'll be just a short while before it's required.
Yeah, "maybe the left is mad at twitter because they love child porn' did get me mad.
Can you figure why?
I'm old enough I recall my life was fine pre-twitter. I'm not super mad about Musk trashing twitter, though he is.
He does it while kissing up to you and your tribe, so you think he's cool. Which says a lot about you.
And quoting twitter's PA team that twitter is doing a great job on child porn is not proof twitter is doing a great job on child porn.
they did not have enough staff to remove child sexual images and solicitations because they were all assigned to remove Hunter's naked pics. because priorities priorities
Forbes article titled "Elon Musk Inherited Twitter’s Child Abuse Nightmare—Experts Say He’s Making It Worse":
"With a potentially damaging sextortion case hanging over Twitter’s head and child protection staff fleeing the chaos, Musk has a big job to fulfill promises he’s made to protect minors on the site."
...
And apparently Musk put the proper sized boot in someone to start cleaning things up. Isn't that a good thing?
Ignoring Brett's spin, what exactly do you think is incorrect in the link he posted?
And I can see why you would object to “maybe the left is mad at twitter because they love child porn", but I can't see where either Brett or the article he linked says anything like that.
you left out "Men who have sex with men(even once! that means you, "Reverend" Jerry)" not being able to donate blood (You know, because of that persistent Hiv-ie Virus) oh wait, they've changed the regulation, Great! not Hemophiliacs, Immunocompromised, Cancer Patients can get a big innoculation of the HIV to stimulate their immune response!!!
Well you're a fucking loser then, suck on a luger like your hero Adolf
yeah, you jealous?
Umm, you obviously don't know "BCD" is military slang for "Big Chicken Dinner" AKA "Bad Conduct Discharge", which you don't know, because you don't even pack the sand to be in the KISS army, much less a military one.