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From Kansas S. Ct. Justice, About Univ. of Kansas Law School's Response to a Federalist Society Event
"Consider that—as reported in the local paper—several students were so distraught over this event and afraid for their 'physical and emotional safety' that they claimed they could not even be inside Green Hall at the same time as the speaker. Perhaps this should alert us to an institutional failure to cultivate the norms, habits, and skills necessary to the task of lawyering."
An interesting letter from Kansas Supreme Court Justice Caleb Stegall, sent on Friday to the Dean of the University of Kansas School of Law (and prompted by this e-mail from the KU Law Faculty/Staff Diversity, Including & Belonging Committee [UPDATE: note that the Dean is a faculty member of that Committee]):
Dear Dean Mazza:
… I write to let you know that … I will not be renewing my teaching relationship with KU Law next fall….
It has been a joy and privilege to teach some of the best students at KU Law over the past six years. During those years my students have arrived with a diversity of backgrounds, ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations, religious persuasions, and political persuasions. Yet this has never impeded us from taking up—together—the exciting task of becoming lawyers.
To that end, I have taught the craft, skills, and habits of effective advocacy—always grounded in the foundational principles of our profession….
So you will understand why I was disappointed to hear from KU Law students who recently came to me to express concern over administration actions surrounding a lunch-hour event sponsored by the student chapter of the Federalist Society. My understanding, from participants, is that after the KU Law student chapter of the Federalist Society announced that a lawyer from the Alliance Defending Freedom would speak in Green Hall, there was a significant uproar from members of the student body and faculty. Concerned about what might happen at the event, the Federalist Society student chapter President asked the administration to provide event security. In response, the administration asked to meet with the entire student board of the chapter.
At that meeting Associate Dean Leah Terranova and Professor Pam Keller pressured the students to cancel the event. The administration representatives warned the student leaders that they needed to consider and understand the impact the event could have on them. The administration mentioned that at least five law professors had written to object. The students were told that even though it was their right to host the speaker, they needed to be warned about the impact of their choices. The student leaders were told several times to consider what this would do to their reputation.
Now, knowing the people involved, I can well imagine that there was no intent to threaten or coerce the board members of the student chapter. I can even see that this effort was likely an ill-conceived attempt to protect those students. After all, it is true that in the current environment, being willing to swim upstream may in fact harm a person's reputation and even standing in the legal community.
But isn't that the problem? Rather than acquiescing to this, my hope and expectation is that leaders in the legal community would instead help protect the reputations of students willing to engage in difficult discussions—and guide them in that process. Without that support, it took great courage for the students to carry on with the event.
Following this meeting, but before the lunch event occurred, I and the entire KU Law community received an email from the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Committee. The email described the speaker—by his association with ADF—as a practitioner of "hate speech." The email went on to acknowledge, grudgingly, that as a public university KU Law was bound by "the tenets of the First Amendment" and would permit the event to move forward.
The email, by implication, accused the student leaders of the KU Law Federalist Society of facilitating hate speech. Worse, the email made it very clear that the principles of free and open dialogue are only acquiesced to as a legal obligation at KU Law—they are not celebrated, cherished, or valued. Here, the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Committee cemented in fact what was predicted by the administration only a few hours earlier—the student members of the KU Law Federalist Society chapter were held up before the entire community as pariahs….
Of course, it shouldn't have to be said—but I will say it—that my criticism and concern over the handling of this incident by KU Law has nothing to do with the particular speaker, his institutional affiliation, or ADF generally…. [E]ngaging in reasoned, constructive, open dialogue on an equal footing among people of diverse backgrounds representing different viewpoints is the strength and glory of liberal democracy—and is in a real sense what makes the rule of law possible….
Now, I am not insensitive to the real fact that the conflict underlying this controversy is deeply felt and reasonably may be understood by many participants on both sides as existential in nature…. And yes, there is the dangerous and sickening fact of incidents of ideologically motivated violence. Such acts of brutality, terror, and lawless criminality threaten the peace and stability that benefit us all. And each of us can probably think of figures who want nothing more than to see the liberal public square disposed of as a relic of history—clearing the way for more direct forms of conflict.
But lawyers of all people must resist the temptation to turn our backs on the liberal public square—even when it may feel justified by the perceived offense given by one's political opponents. In fact, lawyers ought to form the last and best line of defense of the liberal public square and its pillars—a fair hearing for all voices, dispassionate and deliberate judgment, individual not group guilt, protection for dissent, and an ethos that, if not quite capable of walking a mile in another's shoes, can at least tolerate a few minutes of quiet listening in another's presence.
Consider that—as reported in the local paper—several students were so distraught over this event and afraid for their "physical and emotional safety" that they claimed they could not even be inside Green Hall at the same time as the speaker. Perhaps this should alert us to an institutional failure to cultivate the norms, habits, and skills necessary to the task of lawyering.
As far as I can tell, there is no one that comes out of this unsullied. I understand that some have accused the student leaders of the KU Law Federalist Society chapter of not following the right procedure before inviting the lunch-time speaker—that the event was an "ambush." I find that plausible given what is clearly a closed and stifling culture of discourse at KU Law. Certainly nothing that transpired suggests that KU Law would have welcomed a discussion or debate with this speaker if the chapter had only followed proper procedure.
Of course, that doesn't justify a failure on the part of the Federalist Society chapter to be fully considerate of others. Two wrongs never a right make. The point is that the behavior on both sides indicates an institutional failure.
Consideration and respect for others is the common good bought and paid for by the sacrifices entailed in curating and maintaining a robust and vibrant liberal public square. We cannot have one without the other. And if the different sides of the societal conflicts we see all around us continue to anathemize each other before engaging in the hard, demanding, and sometimes tedious work required by the liberal public square, we are likely to see that square disappear entirely.
This is what I have seen play itself out at KU Law this fall—and it is especially concerning to see it take root within the leadership of the school. To the extent the movement calling itself Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion is an effort to encourage the imaginative effort on everyone's part to consider what it is like to walk that proverbial mile in another's shoes, it is laudable. But if—as demonstrated by KU Law's Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Committee—it is the operational arm of a bigger effort to silence large segments of our society, then it is an ideological movement committed to principles that are contrary to the principles of a free and equal society living under the rule of law.
There is a perennial temptation to cheat on the social contract—to shortcut or bypass the liberal public square on the road to achieving one's preferred outcomes. Such efforts are drawn to censorship, reprisals against those espousing disfavored views, and to dividing people based on shared group identities and characteristics. The result is likely to be the crushing viewpoint diversity, the elimination of a level and equal playing field, and the exclusion of disfavored individuals and groups—quite the opposite of the chosen aspirational name of the DEI movement.
I know all too well that these disturbing trends—and the authoritarianism at work behind them—are not limited to any one wing (or wings) of our political and cultural moment. So the tell-tale tricks and sleights-of-hand that mark such ideologies must be opposed wherever and whenever they are found—not only when practiced by those one disagrees with (and not only when it is easy or convenient to do so). Indeed, such ideologies threaten the foundational tenets of liberal democracy and the free and open society it enables—principles and practices such as a basic respect for all people as individual human beings; tolerance; openness; the free exchange of ideas without promises of favor or fear of reprisal; and privileging individual character and merit above group characteristics when rendering judgments.
Last year, for example, I took the unusual step of publicly defending a judicial nominee from those who sought to punish him for representing a despised minority in society—people charged with serious sex crimes. As I wrote in the Topeka Capital Journal [link -EV]:
At a time when different segments of society seem less and less inclined to give a fair hearing to voices, ideas and people they disagree with, it strikes me as imperative that we reacquaint ourselves with the majestic principles that serve as pillars of justice delivered under the rule of law. … In the face of hard disagreements—and unfair name-calling—the civic temperament demanded by the rule of law calls us to strive for the ideal of a public-spirited, deliberative and reasoned engagement with others. For a lawyer, this may mean speaking vigorously and boldly on behalf of a client or cause that society has turned against. … [A]t a time when many are wondering if our political structures are hopelessly broken, the American constitutional tradition of sheltering, protecting and cherishing an open public space for the full airing of all viewpoints and facts—even on behalf of unpopular people and ideas, and doing so with deliberation and reason—deserves the respect and support of all of us, together.
And here it must be added that these core commitments are likewise vital to the mission of a place like KU Law—the training and education of the next generation of lawyers who will become stewards of the institutions of law and democracy. Educated citizens of such a society have a minimum obligation to listen to opposing viewpoints and engage in reasoned dialogue. Lawyers have a heightened duty to do so—and are supposed to be receiving training and expertise in the skill set necessary to accomplish that difficult task.
KU Law is not serving its students well—nor is it preparing them to take their place as lawyers in the great conversation (or in Kansas courtrooms)—when it engages in bullying and censoring tactics, fosters a spirit of fear, drives dissent into a guerrilla posture, and gives institutional backing and support to overwrought grievances which can and do cripple a persons' ability to critically engage with ideas or people with whom they disagree….
In my view, KU Law owes its students (all of them, not just those in the Federalist Society chapter) and the future of the rule of law in Kansas better. And it is possible to course correct. But until that time, I can't continue to provide tacit support to the current direction through my teaching affiliation with KU Law. Not when that direction so clearly threatens the basic pillars of our profession—and not when the duty to ensure the great conversation continues is so clearly ours to shoulder….
The letter is long, so I took the liberty of excerpting it and (as I sometimes do) adding a few paragraph breaks; you can read the whole letter here.
I've asked the Dean for comment, and will pass along anything I get back; but an article on the subject at the Sunflower State Journal (paywalled) reports that the Dean had "declined comment" to that publication. The article does note, though, that a KU spokesperson responded, "The university takes pride in its role as a marketplace of ideas, and we strive to provide opportunities for various perspectives to be debated and discussed within our community."
[UPDATE, 11/30/22, 1:16 pm: The dean responded:
Thank you for your note. I received Justice Stegall's letter and replied to him shortly after. In my response I told him that I appreciate that he took the time to share his thoughts, I thanked him for his service to our school as an adjunct professor, and I assured him that his perspective is valued here.
The University takes pride in its role as a marketplace of ideas, and we strive to provide opportunities for various perspectives to be debated and discussed within our community.]
And here is the text of the KU Law Faculty/Staff Diversity, Including & Belonging Committee e-mail:
Green Hall Students, Faculty & Staff,
The Faculty/Staff Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging (DEIB) Committee is writing in response to the concerns expressed by many students in the Law School community regarding a Federalist Society event featuring an Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF)-affiliated speaker. The legal positions of the ADF -- particularly as they relate to the rights, freedoms and humanity of the LGBTQ+ community and its individual members -- do not align with the values of the law school. ADF has taken legal positions designed to criminalize homosexuality, demonize trans people, and degrade the civil rights of members of the LGBTQ+ community. As such, the interests and activities of ADF are antithetical to the inclusion and belonging we strive to achieve on our campus.
The University of Kansas School of Law unequivocally condemns hate speech, which is commonly defined as "any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability or national origin." As a school of law at a public university, we are bound by the tenets of the First Amendment and its protection of freedom of speech and expression, including hate speech. Student groups are empowered to invite speakers who express a variety of viewpoints. We will continue to cultivate in our students the ability to engage with different beliefs and operate in a world where people can speak and think freely.
As a committee devoted to fostering and promoting diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, our responsibility is to create an environment that recognizes the inherent dignity and value of each member of the KU Law community. We, therefore, urge all members of the KU Law School community to remember and reflect upon the values and responsibilities we hold as members and future members of the legal profession, including our obligation to promote justice for all people.
Sincerely,
The KU Law Faculty/Staff Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Belonging Committee
Thanks to Lance Kinzer for the pointer.
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Liberals don’t want anyone with views that oppose theirs to speak on campus because then students might be able to hear their real views, rather than the ones the Liberals have painted (and tainted) them with.
"Illiberals", surely?
Leftists. They are way too intolerant to be considered "liberal."
Should have said “Liberals”, with quotes included.
Terminology is getting more fun all the time, like why are people from Brazil labeled Hispanic, when Spain didn’t colonize Brazil.
And why aren’t people whose ancestors are from Italy called Latin Americans?
And why aren’t people whose ancestors are from Italy called Latin Americans?
We got called many other colorful things instead.
Iberian Peninsula.
Portuguese are increasingly being defined as "Hispanic" -- this is particularly true in fishing communities where the immigrants arrived several generations ago, and were deliberately concealing their true identity.
Even today, Commercial Fishing is *the* most dangerous occupation in the US -- a century ago it was far worse, and no one asked questions about the background of someone willing to work.
Here's an excerpt from a 2019 Wall Street Journal article titled / subtitled "Fake News and Fake Education? / A new study suggests that distorted media reporting and academic instruction are encouraging Americans to dislike each other."
(The "new study" analyzed the extent to which people on both sides of the Republican / Democratic divide correctly understand the beliefs of their opponents.)
The Perception Gap
Notably Republicans don't come across very well in this study.
Though it does find that the more education a Democrat has, the less accurate their understanding of Republicans get, while Republican understanding of Democrats isn't effected one way or the other by increasing education, this is countered by the finding that Republicans misunderstand Democrats at much higher levels on average, so it takes a post-graduate degree for Democrats to be as bad at it as Republicans.
I find that interesting, because other studies have found that Republicans are much better at predicting Democrats' answers to questions than Democrats are at predicting Republican answers. Perhaps the difference is in the topics probed, or how the "perception gap" is defined?
Interesting. That does contradict multiple prior studies. Makes me curious about their methodology.
You nailed it. It is the methodology. Prior studies were based the capacity to describe and discuss the intricacies of other sides arguments. This study is classic soft "science" about how "feelings" towards political opponents run. I have no doubt that the distrust of hardcore team blue partizans is at least completely returned by hardcore team red partizans. What the team blue partizans do worse at than their team red brethren is accurately describing the opposing sides arguments.
You see it in action every day in these very pages. I suspect the Sarcastro archetype is a very common one in progressive circles.
Most such that I've seen show conservatives more correctly identifying liberal views than otherwise. This allows conservatives to claim they understand liberals better than libs understand cons.
A couple days ago here at Volokh Ilya Somin was arguing with Tyler Cowen about the difference between "classical liberals", who Somin equates with "libertarian, and the "New Right", which Somin equates with National Conservatism. Others might contest Somin's classification of libertarianism and National Conservatism. I love these taxonomies of conservatism. IIRC a couple year ago TAC did a series on what conservatism is. The various authors didn't agree with each other. Some didn't seem to agree with themselves. This is what those studies really say. Conservatives don't know what conservatives believe. How could liberals possibly know?
"Liberals" is a pretty broad tar-brush for someone claiming to be worried about hearing one's real views.
Flat Earth-ers and Klan members may have the right to speak, but that does not mean KU must welcome them. I don't know who this ADF speaker was, and I suppose one can argue about where his (?) views sit on the gradient between conventional wisdom and extremist hate speech. But surely an educational institution that desires constructive dialog need not sit idle if it thinks a speaker's message is closer to fringe hate speech than nuanced legal critique?
Given the breadth of the brush with which KU (and you) painted the student group and the ADF (notably, not addressing the particular speaker at all), I don't think you have any room to talk.
I said I do not know the speaker. I allowed that people might disagree about where the speech falls on a continuum.
Given that they are winning major legal cases, I think we have to agree that their views are within the legal mainstream even if not popular with KU students, faculty, or administration.
"Flat Earth-ers and Klan members may have the right to speak..."
And it's certainly possible that students might benefit from hearing Flat-Earthers or Klan members speak, whether you agree with their views or not.
Not my call to make. KU has the right to draw those lines, however. That is part of its educational mission, just as allowing contrary viewpoints is. They are allowed to try to strike the right balance.
Actually, KU is an organ of the state and it is far from clear it has any independent right to draw any lines.
So FedSoc members are flat earthers and Klan members?
They’re the other and must be destroyed. Rage isn’t nuanced.
Back to my original comment. If they don’t let them speak, you can call them anything, with no rebuttal.
Maybe some are, but that wasn't my point at all.
Dont you want the flat earthers to expose their warped views? Isn't that all part of the learning process? Part of the problem today concerning misinformation, is educational entities telling students what is relevant, meaningful, rather than exposure to broad ideas and teaching how to sort the reality from narrative. You need exposure to the extremes, or you have no idea they are extreme.
So what? Why shouldn't they get to decide who they listen to and who they don't listen to? What do you want to do, tie them down and put clamps on their eues like A Clockwork Orange?
I find myself disappointed that Justice Stegall chose to step aside from the relationship with KU Law rather than engaging even more energetically. Isn't that decision exactly the outcome the illiberal voices wish?
It is disappointing in one sense, as he gives the authoritarians what they want–silencing opinions different from theirs. But I would have taken the same action.
Pressuring the cancellation of an event because some intellectually timid and emotionally immature students felt physically threatened, is not a behavior that can be tolerated to be associated in any way with one's name.
The cowardice of the Dean in refusing to respond to the local press is further evidence of how authoritarian extreme left campus culture has become.
"…because some intellectually timid and emotionally immature students felt physically threatened…"
In order to justify violence against speakers, they make such a claim.
Some how adults have to push back. He is pushing back. Yale is finding out their law grades will fishing in a much smaller pool of potential judges...because of choices
It's hard for me at 78 to believe we as Americans with our wonderful traditions of free speech and open marketplaces of ideas have sunk into such a toxic morass.
We have.
This whole thing brings back bad memories of my days at Wiemar in Amherst, otherwise known as the University of Massachusetts at.
The FedSoc chapter leadership was wise to make sure that the entire group was behind them because what's not mentioned by the Judge (and I doubt he knew) is that meetings of this sort are commonly used to oust student leaders and replace them with those who are more favorable to the admin's position.
And the thing that amazes me is how "the community" has gone from simply wanting to be left alone to this -- IANAA but am I not correct that any lawyer who publicly called for people to be murdered would be in trouble with the bar? (If not arrested for attempting to incite a riot?)
It's hard for me at 78 to believe we as Americans with our wonderful traditions of free speech and open marketplaces of ideas have sunk into such a toxic morass.
1. bad gateway
2. gateway time out
You're getting that, too, lately? Only here, for me.
We made a fatal mistake after WWII: We purged all our public institutions of fascists, on account of having fought Hitler, but failed to do the same to the Communists, who after all had started WWII as Hitler's allies.
And the commies took over the schools, because conservatives really did think, "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach."
It's the sort of civilizational mistake you only get to make once, I suspect.
Absolute perfection, I have no notes.
Purging people is not any part of the America I want, whether it is Joe McCarthy or today's cancel culture.
The xkcd crowd loves to say that freedom of speech just means the government can't arrest you for what you say -- it doesn't mean you are entitled to a platform. Or a job. Or a home.
No, the First Amendment means the government can't arrest you. The principle of freedom of speech is broader than merely government.
Indeed!
You may value unfettered speech. But much of society finds 4chan an unhelpful place to have reasoned dialog.
Indeed so. In fact, I am a member of that part of society, which is why I don’t frequent 4chan.
I also don’t think I will find nuanced discussion of public policy at the local bar, so I don’t go there. But I don’t try and have it closed.
And 4chan continues unabated. Precisely. However, academic institutions are not 4chan and don't want to be. They moderate their content. They even state the principles by which they moderate.
That's a very fetching shade of lipstick you are putting on this pig, but the university was wrong here. The invitee here wasn't Bill Ayers or Idi Amin. Universities aren't like my living room where I enforce whatever whims I want. They have a responsibility to society to welcome a broad range of viewpoints.
The university is less open to conflicting ideas than 4chan and a less likely place to find an interesting or intelligent perspective. But I understand why you're wedded to your progressive echo chamber.
Oh come on, you guys (Absaroka et al) and the good Justice Stegall are the crybabies in this scenario. As freakin’ always.
The event happened. The Federalist Society got to have their hate speaker.
The University also got to voice its opinion, which seems to be what’s pissing you off. But that’s been part of the justification all along for why it’s ok to require universities to host speech like this: the university can disavow the speech. It did. So… what’s the problem exactly? You want to censor / cancel the University now? God what a bunch of whiny dumbasses. This is what debate looks like, you sniveling losers.
Reallyniobob;
you keep saying the the Federalist Society is exactly equivalent to flat earthers
The same as the KKK
Share DNA with 4chan
Where are you getting your information. Because you so far off base, any reader has to question your IQ or honesty
And as a private citizen, you are free to spend as much time or as little as you like on 4chan.
What you can't do is abuse your authority as a government official (in this case, a public university administrator) to deny access to an otherwise-generally-available resource (in this case, university meeting space) solely on the basis of viewpoint.
Yes, they always forget that.
Dear God.
Even the Pope took Hitler's side against the center party in Germany because the Holy See was terrified of the Bolsheviks.
Maybe we should purge the Catholics. (/s because I recognize there are some actual anti-papists who comment here).
How much straw did you have to harvest to build that argument?
Catholics didn't purposely align with Hitler to bring down the United States and capitalism. The Communists did.
So you favor purges?
And you gleaned that from what I said exactly where? Care to try again?
Reallynotbob says purging Commies is as silly as purging Catholics.
You distinguish Catholics from Commies.
Why would you say that other than to argue that purging Commies would not be as silly as purging Catholics?
True, Father Coughlan and his ilk aligned with Hitler to bring down the United States and support capitalism. Capitalists were in on it too, of course.
The lesson being that Commies are even worse than Nazis, I suppose?
Precisely. Had we exterminated our leftists, the way Pinochet and other heroes did, they wouldn't have been around to infect our students.
Oh come on, Brett.
This is pretty far off the wall, even for you.
Support for communism in the United States was killed by the Cold War. The CPUSA last fielded a Presidential ticket in 1984. Even back in 1957, it had under 10,000 members--and 1,500 or so of those were FBI informants. I'm not sure what gives Brett the idea that our institutions are filled with Communists; perhaps he thinks anybody to the left of Biden is a Communist.
Brett has a secret list of 73 Communists in the State Department.
Only 73? And I highly doubt that they are being secret.
That is really shameful behavior by the state employees at the law school, to use the authority which they have been given by the people to harass and intimidate citizens exercising their right to free speech. Justice Stegall is much too charitable to credit the law school administration with good intentions: good intentions do not excuse evil acts. The Kansas legislature should fire those involved.
Sadly, shameful behavior by state employees at universities is all too common. The job seems to breed arrogance and self-righteousness.
Sorry, did you say public institutions have no right to speak freely also?
Threats from state officials are not protected speech. Specifically, university administrators have no right to threaten students' careers to punish them for the views they express.
It's amazing, the hypocrisy of liberals who rage about "microaggressions" one day, then shout down, threaten, and assault anyone they disagree with, all in the name of "inclusion."
Question: 42 USC 1983 liability?
Does damaging a student's career for the student's protected speech constitute "violation of civil rights under color of law"?
I know it has never been raised -- but maybe it should be.
Tolerate the intolerant is one thing. Offer the intolerant a platform, unchallenged, is another.
The Federalist Society is intolerant? I'll wait till you grow up and start offering evidence to support your prejudiced accusations, to take you seriously.
Your like a child that started off with a wildly wrong viewpoint, got corrected and showed the facts, but keep doubling down on stupid rather than admit you were ever wrong.
I don't see any evidence of threats.
The students were "pressured [by the administrators] to cancel the event," alerted to how many law professors disagreed with them, "warned about the impact the event could have on them," and told "to consider what this would do to their reputation." Those are pretty clear threats.
Those are pretty clear threats.
Are they, though? They could be, I agree, but they aren't necessarily. It depends on how they were delivered.
Associating with and endorsing bigots isn't a good look, and it certainly is the kind of thing that'll lose you friends and opportunities. I think it's appropriate to warn students of the potential consequences of their actions. When you tell a kid that they need to look both ways or risk getting hit by a car, it isn't a threat.
The Justice's own description of the meetings make them seem non-threatening:
Now, knowing the people involved, I can well imagine that there was no intent to threaten or coerce the board members of the student chapter.
Nice group you have here. It would be a shame, if anything happened to it. Amirite?
No, he didn't. Care to share where you gleaned that from?
One of these days, a sane-state legislature is going to step in and simply shut the institution down.
You mean like how Florida actually is government-censoring its universities? At least, it's trying to. Fortunately the feds aren't going to let it.
Y'all on the right can't see your own hypocrisy. The hate lawyer got to speak, and KU also got to speak. Isn't that what's supposed to happen? But you guys are all riled up because KU dared to disavow hate speech. Clodhoppers.
I don't see the Feds being able to do much to stop Florida.
As to the law school stating orthodox views, "[i]f there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion..." (West VA v. Barnette)
The law school can state its views. That doesn’t make them orthodox.
But of course, Florida's attempt to censor is a blatant attempt to define an orthodoxy.
And the feds already did stop Florida, so I guess you were wrong.
More DEI fuckery.
Watch as the plucky DEI heroes save vulnerable students from certain death caused by a speaker saying things that they don’t agree with in a room where they can’t hear them.
Makes sense if you think about it.
Lots of dumb academic admin decisions are not DEI related. But this seems to be one that is.
You’re right, stupid admin decisions aren’t limited to DEI, or even academic admins.
But this is so terminally ridiculous that I don’t understand how the DEI people - or the Dean - can take themselves seriously. Don’t they need to understand that they need to preserve their credibility so that when something actually bad comes along, which will almost certainly happen at some point, they will have the gravitas to deal with it? They are rendering themselves useless.
"The legal positions of the ADF—particularly as they relate to the rights, freedoms and humanity of the LGBTQ+ community and its individual members—do not align with the values of the law school."
Sounds like the members of the "KU Law Faculty/Staff Diversity, Including & Belonging Committee" are having difficulty distinguishing their personal values from the institutional values of the law school. Functioning adults need to be able to make this distinction.
Imagine being so fragile that, as a 20-something with aspirations to enter a demanding profession, you feel physically and emotionally harmed by the idea that someone who doesn't agree with you on everything might be permitted to speak publicly.
And then imagine being so fickle and timid that, as a 50- or 60-something leader of a law school, you place even a shred of validity on those sentiments.
Imagine running an institution that depends on attracting 20-somethings whose world view has, on average, moved on from certain forms of bigotry. Imagine selling the institution as one that fosters a dialog based on mutual respect and civility. Then imagine the problem presented when some of those students want to inject a speaker (probably correctly) perceived as disrespectful and uncivil.
It's a nuanced problem, but ignoring the mores of the customer is probably a poor business decision for the school. Free markets omg!
The ADF are not bigots. So when you start from an utterly stupid position like that, don't expect to be taken seriously. The fact that someone disagrees with these 20-somethings' opinions doesn't MAKE them bigots. Also these 20-somethings' "perception" is not reality when you START OUT with the assumption that if someone holds different views than you is "disrespectful and uncivil." The ironic thing is that it's disrespectful and uncivil to shut (or shout) down someone else's ability to speak.
Your comments in this thread prove the point made by the judge and the other commenters.
That's what I thought too -- this was the ADF, not the Westboro Baptist Church. The Fed Soc also was involved, and they aren't crazy either.
It's not like they were strafing the building with Kryptonite.
" The ADF are not bigots. "
Gay-bashers are bigots. Superstition neither improves that bigotry nor transforms it into anything other than bigotry.
I doubt anyone in the mainstream is in the market for pointers from right-wingers on free expression in this context. Conservatives turn essentially every campus they get their hands on into a censorship-shackled, academic freedom-rejecting, dogma-enforcing, speech and conduct code-imposing, loyalty oath-collecting, statement of faith-requiring, nonsense-teaching, intensely discriminatory, fourth-tier (or unranked) yahoo factory. That is most of the reason all of our nation's strongest teaching and research institutions are operated in, by, and for the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
ADF wants to criminalize homosexuality in the US and abroad.
So yes, they are bigots.
Criminalizing an activity, right or wrong, is not a form of bigotry.
Yeah, it very much can be.
Do you have any idea how homophobic your statement was?
The rational for claiming that all gay men were child molesters was that they would inevitably sodomize the children. Because they had no control over their actions.
Adults do have control over their actions.
Saying sexual orientation isn't a choice is not saying all gays are child molesters.
Sexual ACTIVITY is a choice!
Cute girl in a bikini.
Rape her, or control your activity?
A man having consensual sex with another man is not rape.
And banning such activity is banning a certain demographic from having sex.
That's bigotry.
You're a bigot.
S_0,
Do yourself a favor and mute. Mr. Ed.
“ADF wants to criminalize homosexuality in the US and abroad."
Bullpucky.
Link (to something fact-based, not just repetitions of this claim by others) or you’re a-lyin’.
You're the one building straw men now. Nobody is arguing that a mere difference in opinion equals bigotry...except you. That appears to be how you perceive 20-somethings, which says more about your world view than theirs.
The ADF absolutely are bigots. That's totally clear.
You don't get a religious waiver for bigotry. In fact, religious belief is a pretty common underlying cause of bigotry.
Now, you could argue that bigotry should be tolerated, or certain forms of it at least. That's essentially what KU did in this case. They allowed the event after all.
“Probably correctly”. You’ve got no clue if it’s exaggerated or not. Given that they are clearly exaggerating the outcome there’s a reasonable chance they’re exaggerating the views of the speaker.
But your political viewpoint is that the other side is Satan incarnate so anything said about them simply MUST be true, even though you don’t even know the speaker’s name, much less what his views are. Or if it’s even a he.
bevis, not knowing the speaker's identity is not a point in favor of this commentary. Just the opposite.
Of whose commentary? The speaker or the comment I was responding to?
I was criticizing the post I was responding to. I have no position as to the speaker because I know nothing about them. Other than, of course, they have the right to speak there if invited.
Except your lying about the leftist position and what is being considered bigotry. Now not putting race and sexuality before all other considerations on who is allowed to speak or have a valid opinion is considered bigotry to your ilk. That you see no issue with employing every mechanism of blunt force to bludgeon others into compliance says nothing good about you or the ideas you espouse.
It's the marketplace of ideas. If the tide of young people turn against the ADF's speech, that's a matter of evolving social norms. You can think their norms are silly. 150 years ago, phrenology was all the rage. 100 years ago, it was eugenics. Now, that speech is unwelcome. Excluding speakers with discarded values from University lunches--which is not even what happened here--does no violence to liberty or free speech.
You act as if you think the "tide of young people" is a monolith, which this situation demonstrates to be untrue.
And you're talking like a classic sensor - "good speech can be welcome while bad speech is forbidden". If you think you're on the side of liberty and free speech, you're delusional.
And your eugenics example demonstrates the stupidity of your post. Turns out popular opinion changes over time. If, back when eugenics was supported speech, how did that worm get turned? Speech against your example of popular speech was allowed, and it changed society.
Speech against your example of popular speech was allowed, and it changed society.
Just like the University's speech in this case. I mean, the event went on. Nobody was "sensored." What, exactly, is the problem?
The Federalist Society members are young people, and the law school administrators are not. You and they both resemble Lenin, a man in power hanging peasants in the name of advancing peasant interests.
"ignoring the mores of the customer is probably a poor business decision for the school. "
They have many, many more applicants than spaces.
People who go to law school at Kansas are going to the best school they can get into or can afford. They aren't going to stop coming because of a lunch speaker speaking to 20 people.
They will if they think the campus is intolerant, i.e. tolerant of the wrong things. KU competes for high achieving students, not just living ones.
"They will if they think the campus is intolerant, i.e. tolerant of the wrong things."
No they won't. If they had better options they would already be choosing them.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Many students choose between schools of similar stature. And perception factors into US News rankings, so "best" is always a moving target.
"KU competes for high achieving students, not just living ones."
Not any more they don't. Lots of high achieving students are turned away in favor of lower achieving students with desirable situational characteristics.
And again, even applying your logic you and the university are ignoring the desire of the high achieving admitted students who want to hear this particular speaker.
Seriously, dude, your attitude is a hell of a lot more of a Threat to Democracy than anything Trump has ever done. And I'm a Trump hater so don't even try to say differently.
They might feel that way. They might just be saying so. The overall message is to justify violence against speakers.
Uh, violence?
Leftists use violence against speakers when they think they can get away with it. The claim that someone is "physically and emotionally harmed by [ideas]" is used to justify that violence.
Well let's be honest, the Assistant Dean didn't want the speaker at her law school anymore than the triggered students did. They provided her the excuse to try to shut it down, but not the motivation.
You can't know that. Even if you believe the "triggered students" overreacted, the dean has other interests to consider and stakeholders to satisfy.
Did he write "... the exciting task of becoming lawyers ..."?
!!!
I think many lawyers will tell you that law school was indeed exciting, whether or not they think practice was exciting.
I don't know if I would go so far as to call it "exciting," but I found law school significantly more interesting and intellectually stimulating than college.
Q: What was the purpose of this email?
A: https://reason.com/volokh/2020/10/07/why-a-broad-view-of-academic-freedom-is-essential/?comments=true#comment-8506704
The group pays lip service to The Marketplace of Ideas…because somebody is looking and you’re supposed to.
I keep hammering that a couple of years back, there was a concerted effort to re-visit the concept of “The Marketplace of Ideas” across several fronts. I guessed it wasn’t to support it, but to suggest some ideas were worthless, and therefore should be censored.
A week later, Radiolab hosted a debate, where literally one side’s end conclusion was exactly that.
Soon after, I started pointing out the value in the First Amendment isn’t in the value of everything said. Rather its value is in denying those in power the greatest tool of a tyrant: censorship.
For those “who feel attacked”, look around the world. China. Russia. Those are actual attacks, on a massive scale, by the same people doing the censoring.
The American principle to deny government powers, rather than fancy they can be safely wielded by democracy, holds solid still.
For now.
Oh yeah, Iran, too.
Good luck to freedom fighters in all those nations. Some here in The Land of the Free are envious of your oppressors' power to silence.
Great Scott, this is a SUMMARY of the letter? Why oh why do academics do this? The more words, the less the impact! Here is what should have been said:
"Your institution had failed in its duty to promote free inquiry and learning. I can no longer associate myself with you, and will do my utmost to warn others to steer clear of you as well."
The last thing a "traditionalist conservative" such as Justice Stegall wants (or will tolerate) is free inquiry and learning. Observe every campus operated by America's vestigial wingnuts.
This is twaddle:
"Of course, that doesn't justify a failure on the part of the Federalist Society chapter to be fully considerate of others. Two wrongs never a right make. The point is that the behavior on both sides indicates an institutional failure."
It isn't a wrong to invite speakers. And the Justice should be roundly criticized for even saying so--the idea that this was an "ambush" is so ridiculous that it is painfully obvious that this Justice is playing that "both sides" game. And why, pray tell, should the Federalist Society give a hoot about people's feelings in such a context? Ah, the specter of civility.
Years ago, when I was in ROTC, Philip Agee, a traitor, IMHO, was invited to speak. I sat in the front row, in uniform, and stared at him. He sent his message, and I sent mine. And I wouldn't have dreamed of trying to shout him down.
And there is the problem: we have a Gresham's Law of Society, where the ethical elements follow the accepted rules, and the anti-social elements will resort to any "the end justify the" means they feel effective. Bad drives out the good.
It's also not wrong to take legal positions disadvantageous for some people - even if those people are in the victim group du jour.
Maybe not always, but it can be. For example, advocating for the sterilization of trans people is a pretty disgusting legal position.
rloquitur — Put this instance aside. We don't even know who the invited speaker was.
On that basis, we have to take your commentary to mean no matter what a speaker might say, it is not wrong for a government run institution to encourage and promote advocacy to criminalize the identities of some people under its protection. That could be the very advocacy expected in Kansas. Given the ADF, that seems a reasonable expectation.
The history of Nazi purges of Jews from faculties of German universities is no worse than that, just farther along the sequence from advocacy to implementation. Do you advocate that people similarly targeted on university campuses in the U.S. should await implementation before resisting?
"The history of Nazi purges of Jews from faculties of German universities is no worse than that..."
Wow. Just wow.
Absaroka, I expect you will have to dust that one off quite a bit in the months to come. Fact is, there was notable collusion between German Nazis and anti-Roosevelt Republican capitalists in the 1940s.
The history of that episode does not match the present for particulars, but the resemblance of the alignments and tactical choices among the participants in the two eras remains impressive. Trump's supporters are pretty much point-for-point America Firster fascistic Americans, of the sort the German Nazis successfully sought to fund and encourage in the 1940s.
If Jack Smith does not encounter the same kind of political opposition from his own administration that killed the 1940s investigation of congressmen and senators connected to America First, I expect many notable points of comparison to be put before the public. It is remarkable, impressive, and puzzling that events so distant in time, involving an entirely different cast on all sides, should turn out to be ruled by such similar political dynamics. Anyone who can figure out how to explain that will earn my admiration and gratitude.
Lathrop, you're more aligned with fascist behavior than the people you're criticizing with this crap.
Huh?
The identity of the speaker can be discovered with a trivial amount of effort, but I will make it even easier for you:
https://lawrencekstimes.com/2022/10/19/ku-fedsoc-hosting-adf/
You shouldn't have done it in uniform!
Call me when the ADF doesn't have a history and present of supporting sodomy laws, in the US and internationally.
One can believe that sodomy is not constitutionally-protected without supporting laws against it.
That'd be a lot more relevant if that was their stance.
But nope. They objected to overturning sodomy laws not because of some claim about principles, but because they want homosexuality to be criminalized.
They really aren't subtle about this.
Show where.
I happen to believe that sodomy laws are constitutional, but that, perhaps, a desuetude argument could be made. I hate those laws, however. But we could turn around the argument--many support oppressive laws, but they arent subject to calumny.
Here.
Got me. I clicked that. *shakes fist*
Who was the speaker?
The speaker was a person with a right to be free to speak.
Freedom of speech is not the same as entitlement to platform.
You obviously don't understand forum rules.
If you think they apply here, neither do you.
Being invited by a recognized university group grants entitlement to platform.
Not at all.
You invited someone, great!
If that person is then entitled to the platform, you would not be able to --without violating their rights-- do any of the following:
Disinvite them.
Cut their mic.
Move the setting from an audience hall to a broom closet.
Not let you in the building.
Watch and do nothing as you're stopped at the border to Canada because your speech violates that country's hate speech laws.
and so-on.
But the fact is, the host can do all those things! An invitation is an invitation, no more, no less.
Now, many invitations for speaking engagements do include a contract (I'm unaware if this one did), often with payment (sometimes under various words so that everyone can politely say you aren't only there because they paid you). That contract might "entitle" you to something, most often some kind of guaranteed payment in case the host pulls out.
But no. Just because you have received an invitation does not mean you are entitled to anything. If you want that, you have to get a contract, and even then that'll be entitlement to damages, not to a platform.
When the host is a public entity and the forum is a limited public forum (both of which are the case here), the host can not legally do any of those things on the basis of viewpoint.
Well, most of them anyway. I have no idea what you're referring to with the Canadian border reference.
Someone who is invited is offered a platform and has a platform. If I have a platform, I don’t need to be "entitled to" it, I already have it. Entitlement is a non factor.
Speakers have a right to speak.
Does any student at a school have the authority to offer that school as a platform for any speaker, with no input from the school? Seems questionable to me.
Probably not. But whatever the criteria are this speaker apparently met them. Otherwise that would have been the (very persuasive) argument of the administration. Instead they went off into hyperbolic victimization garbage.
You're probably right. My comment was a response to Ben's more general statement, and not really about this specific case.
Any student? No. Officially recognized student groups? Yes.
More to the point, the school does have some rights to withdraw the platform but as an arm of the government (which this school is because it's a publicly-funded institution), they may not do so on the basis of viewpoint.
I want to know that too, ReaderY.
This guy:
https://fedsoc.org/contributors/jordan-lorence
It appears that the role of the “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” Committee is to exclude by inequitable means to preserve uniformity.
Excluding a speaker is not the same as creating uniformity of thought.
That's exactly what it is.
Well, the speaker wasn't excluded, so it's not clear what you're even talking about.
several students were so distraught over this event and afraid for their "physical and emotional safety" that they claimed they could not even be inside Green Hall at the same time as the speaker
The intent of this, broadly, is to justify violence against disfavored speakers. They started this a long time ago with that intent. It worked. Speakers have been the victims of violence and other speakers and the sponsors of their events must fear violence intended to shut those events down.
You will see a similar allusion to unsafety every time a non-leftist speaks on a campus, until only a single viewpoint is available. Or until the people disrupting events are summarily expelled or suffer other similarly serious consequence.
Those poor students who are so emotionally fragile that merely being inside the hall caused them distress should clearly receive counselling in resilience, and any other appropriate therapies, etc. - and it would be unreasonable to require them to continue their studies while being treated, so in their own interests, they should be granted a suspension until they're able to resume.
I disagree with even pretending to take them seriously.
They should be welcomed to feel uncomfortable, just like they’re happy to make the Ned Flanders' of the world feel uncomfortable.
The bigots of the religious right have rights, too.
And, apparently, an ardent defender at this blog.
Imagine taking pride in only defending the most agreeable members of society. Base cowardice.
Imagine telling free citizens they have no power to ostracize the least agreeable members of society.
Be careful. Several people on here appear to see your views as hateful and disagreeable. If anyone is subject to ostracism, then everyone is subject to ostracism
Ostracize away! God it would beat all the damn whining, that's for sure!
Not from public institutions they don't.
Now all they need is a "Delete Comment" button.
The framing, "hidden hostilities and carefully nursed grievances," gives the game away. That is not the language of liberalism, not directed at anyone. My advocacy is forthright, principled and open; your advocacy is based on hidden hostilities and carefully nursed grievances. Bullshit. Directed at people who, apparently justifiably, expect they will face advocacy to target them criminally, that is outrageous.
Their objections appear to have been forthright, not hidden, by the way, so Justice Stegall is less than forthright about that too.
Finally, how is it possible to feature this thread without naming the proposed speaker? That seems the least forthright of all. Had we known who this purported speaker was, we might have some basis to decide for ourselves, on the basis of, you know, information, whether folks who objected had plausible basis to fear the message. ADF's notion that it is God's design to put gay people in jail to defend marriage and family IS frightening. You do not need to be gay to recognize it as totalitarian.
Commentary on this thread is dismaying that it is somehow anti-freedom to object to government-run sponsorship of that kind of advocacy. But of course without reference to the particular speaker, and what the speaker is on record as advocating, it is always possible to pretend an intent to protect, "liberty."
"Had we known who this purported speaker was"
From a moment's googling, the speaker in question is Erin Hawley. You should like her, she's a fellow Yalie!
Perhaps I would like her better if she shared my status as a graduate of the Boise State University VoTech program. Yale has a lot more to answer for.
And she is considered radical hate speech person? Seriously?
The pupils (they cannot be considered students) and DEI both have a screw loose somewhere. Or 3-4 screws loose.
What makes you say that? The news stories I found indicate that the speaker is Jordan Lawrence. This article does reference objections to a recent Federalist Society event involving her, but it's at UVA, not Kansas.
Thank you, good catch, my bad ... was heading out to shovel snow ... again :-(.
"Their objections appear to have been forthright"
You actually believe that the students felt "physically threatened to be in the same building? Boy, are you gullible.
Leftists are NOT liberal. They are intolerant, nasty, foul-mouthed little totalitarians, whose first impulse is to silence any opposing opinion. They use the "flag abuse" button on reason.com. In real life, they use lawsuits, marches, demonstrations, boycotts, and when that doesn't shut conservatives up, they use violence.
I know. I had to deal with them up close and personally.
That's why conservatives have a moral obligation to strike first.
Think about it. Conservatives have all of the military experience, technical know how, and ability to grow food and produce energy. It wouldn't be hard for several million patriotic conservatives to build enough gas chambers to herd all 81 million Biden voters into.
No.
I neither know nor care if you are serious or not, we are better than this and it isn't funny....
Dude, you defended the ADF wanting to criminalize gay men in the US and abroad.
You may be better then "this", but not by much.
" That’s why conservatives have a moral obligation to strike first. Think about it. Conservatives have all of the military experience, technical know how, and ability to grow food and produce energy. It wouldn’t be hard for several million patriotic conservatives to build enough gas chambers to herd all 81 million Biden voters into. "
This is the following attracted -- and cultivated -- by a white, male, right-wing, partisan, bigot-friendly blog.
Carry on, clingers.
Professor Volokh has cultivated an audience of fans to back the notion that stupid, destructive advocacy is somehow socially valuable. And that social (not government) resistance to stupid and destructive advocacy is somehow anti-liberty. If that were true, the entire notion of a marketplace of ideas would collapse.
Most of the comments on this thread have been unreflective attacks, aimed to undermine, not support, the marketplace of ideas. More reflective commentary would at least notice the difference between government censorship and private counter-advocacy. Better still, would be commentary which was not so obviously angling toward turning every right-wing ambition into a 1A sanctioned, legally enforceable constitutional right.
✓ Like
“knowing the people involved, I can well imagine that there was no intent to threaten or coerce”
Kinda naive for a judge, no? Or shows a lack of imagination?
They certainly intended to "threaten or coerce”. To the applause of the tolerant libs posting here.
I read that as the judge being diplomatic. Remember that he (?) went out into harm’s way writing this and as there are only 8,045 lawyers in Kansas, I’m guessing that the legal community there is rather small, particularly on the upper levels.
What’s also not being said here is that having a judge teach classes is usually much desired by a law school because (a) it’s prestigious, (b) popular with students and (c) cheap — at most, the judge is getting an adjunct’s stipend, and some state’s bar ethics preclude even that.
And just because he didn't publicly accuse them of an attempt to "threaten or coerce" doesn't mean he can't say that off the record, or that it isn't widely know in what (I presume) is a small community where everyone knows each other.
It's even possible that others "know the people involved" and little more needs to be said.
"the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging Committee"
Justice Caleb Stegall should have resigned the day this committee was authorized.
I have yet to hear of any of these committees doing anything but excluding people.
In other news, "Admissions Office Actually Rejects Most Applicants."
Also, "I have yet to hear of" is disqualifying. It means you have zero idea what those committees do.
Eugene, I am happy that you deemed fit to share the actual email shared by the DEI committee, since doing so helps to illustrate precisely how Stegall has mischaracterized it for his own polemical purposes. That further helps one to dismiss his disingenuous, inflated polemic for what it is.
And he does go on, doesn't he?
I am not sure that law students should be quaking in fear when an ADF representative walks the halls of KU Law (another classic EV bugaboo, there), but we also shouldn't pretend that the Federalist Society inviting an organization that is engaged in legal advocacy with the purpose of imposing Christian values on the country is just engaged in "honest debate." This phenomenon of giving academic platforms to right-wing pundits, polemicists, and extremists, is less about engaging with (or even challenging) their ideas than it is about giving them an institutional pedigree they haven't earned and don't deserve.
Sure it’s honest debate. You don’t want it. I don’t want it. But they’re free to speak.
Hell, open communists are free to team speak on campus. They’re regularly teaching on campus. We’ve got at least one serving in the Senate. Communism is respond for more human misery than any philosophy in the modern era. Where’s your objection to them speaking on campus if your worried about dangerous political systems being shut out of speaking.
Consider Ben Shapiro and Cornel West.
You don't invite Ben Shapiro to campus to engage in a thoughtful debate over social conservative issues. You invite him to campus so that he can mouth off, "trigger the libz," raise his profile.
Whereas, you invite Cornel West, you can put him in a room with an ideological opponent who can actually debate him, and he'll try to respond thoughtfully. You might not like what he has to say, you might think he's wrong, you might think his responses are gobbledygook, but you wouldn't be able to argue that the only point of his being there is to be there.
The Federalist Society used to stand for limited government, freedom, Burkean conservatism. ADF is a reactionary legal advocacy group that is cynically making use of our legal system to impose their vision of society on the rest of us. Some of their members might be able to string together an argument. But don't pretend that they're interested in speaking on campus because they want to engage in an honest debate over their mission.
Very well said, 100 percent correct.
This brought back bad memories from an earlier time in my life, when I defended undergrads wishing to bring in controversial speakers, and then had to defend myself from an inexorably-increasing wave of attacks on myself for doing so.
It's why I believe that academia is mortally wounded -- it might recover but I doubt it.
Sorry you don't know what mortally wounded means.
Point well taken.
Although EMS has improved so much over the past few decades that people aren't always dying of "mortal" wounds anymore. The wounds are defined as "mortal" on the same objective criteria as before -- except that people are now often savable.
That is the point I was trying to imply -- hopefully the education profession can be saved, but I highly doubt it.
"She turned me into a newt..."
[brief pause]
"...I got better."
...several students were so distraught over this event and afraid for their 'physical and emotional safety' that they claimed they could not even be inside Green Hall at the same time as the speaker.
Is this a lie, used to intimidate the school to ban speakers or do these people REALLY believe this????
Sadly, I suspect that they REALLY believe it.
The easiest way to understand some of this stuff is to review what happened in Danvers (not Salem) back in 1692.
Criminalizing sodomy is some beyond the pale theocracy. I absolutely agree with the school’s disgust at this speaker, and think the Federalist Society discredits itself by associating with this kind of crap. And the few on here arguing for such a point of view are showing both their atavism and their authoritarianism.
And this school understands the law – it’s gotta host if it’s public; no viewpoint discrimination.
But the methods the school used here – of *serious talks* about people’s careers followed by institutional speech for the purpose of shaming students is just dirty pool.
In individual mentor could maybe do that, if meant in good faith about the student’s career, but the school-as-institution can’t be using those methods. Which sucks for the school. And it’ll take some messaging to the student body to calm them down. And I’m sure is a marketing nightmare. But running a public school isn’t for wimps. Though it seems to select for such somehow.
Nobody agrees with it but they’ve got to be able to advocate for it or the 1A doesn’t work.
As I posted above, Communism is the political philosophy that has caused more human misery than any other in modern history. People openly advocate for it in the USA every day. Should we bu shutting those people up too?
There’s no consistency here. The school has to let it happen. If what is being said about what they advocate is true, then they’ve been advocating it for quite some time. It’ll be done and blow over and nothing will change. No harm done.
Strictly speaking, the school is letting it happen. But only in the most formalistic sense. Which to this functionalist does not fly at all.
I do think there is a cost, both to the school’s reputation, and in the school however unwillingly lending such reputation to this rot. But I could be wrong. And so could the school. Thus, as you noted in your first paragraph, that’s not a line you can allow institutions to draw.
Why shouldn't the school disavow speech it not only disagrees with, but which runs contrary to its mission and values? That seems totally fair.
It didn't just disavow - that would be fine. You see statements like that all the time.
It went after the students, both privately and publicly.
Did it, though? Where are you seeing that?
Eugene included the public letter. It doesn't disparage the students, it seems like a pretty typical disavowal.
Then even the Justice's description of the student meeting suggests they were warned but not threatened. I think there's a way to have that conversation which is positive and better than not having it. We don't know for sure, but based on the Justice's account and the innocuous public letter, it doesn't seem like there's much if anything to fault the University with here.
Upon re-reading, you are correct. It condemned the speaker, but the rest is all 'by implication.'
The private pressure is still inappropriate, but the public statement even as described in the letter actually seems fine to me.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion..." (West VA v. Barnette)
"Criminalizing sodomy is some beyond the pale theocracy"
A society that suppresses advocacy of criminalizing sodomy today is a society that could suppress advocacy of decriminalizing it in 1960.
I agree with you as to the case here. But lets drill into this a bit.
What do you mean by suppression? Some points of view are shameful by current social standards. Private consequence for being an asshole include loss of friends, employment opportunities, even access to some institutions.
Does this mean that someone on the side of gay rights would have had issues in the 1960s? Alas, yes. But hasn't it always been thus? You can criticize cancel culture all you want, but it's been a thing since before the written word. In the end, one cannot help but notice some viewpoint-based correlation with who gets mad at cancel culture. (Cf: 'which views?' 'Oh, you know the ones.')
The Founders surely knew and understood this when they made the 1A
And just as the power to censor is too much to give to the government, so to is the power to police broad acceptance of individual viewpoints and behavior.
But to return full circle, so what? If a private school pulled this kind of coercive nonsense even on an out-and-out Nazi speaker, it'd still be bad behavior. These are not appropriate methods to use on your own students.
I'm not even sure these facts are legally actionable; they just suck.
>What do you mean by suppression?
If Fred says 'the sun rises in the west', it's OK to:
-say 'nope, I checked this AM, it was in the east'
-cancel your subscription to Fred's magazine
-vote against Fred if he runs for office
-not read Fred's blog/listen to his TV show/etc
Note these all involve either a)speaking in opposition or b)changing your own behavior.
It's not OK to:
-try to get Fred fired
-shout down Fred
-accost Fred in a restaurant
Note these involve a)trying to stop other people from hearing Fred (speak your own piece and let them decide!) or b)trying to harm Fred in various ways so other people will be afraid to say what Fred says.
Convince, don't suppress.
>If a private school pulled this kind of coercive nonsense even on >an out-and-out Nazi speaker, it’d still be bad behavior. These >are not appropriate methods to use on your own students.
>I’m not even sure these facts are legally actionable; they just >suck.
We're in fervid agreement here.
I want to be clear that it is *not* up to the government to police OK/not OK here. We are in the realm of social mores.
-try to get Fred fired.
I don't think this is viable as a general principle. Take, for a cliché, Fred is a Nazi. I will not judge anyone who as a private citizen points out to Fred's employer that he's a Nazi.
But of course this doesn't hold true for all viewpoints and behaviors. See the anti-Karen sentiment we see today.
-shout down Fred
Yes, heckler's veto is a pretty easy general case, though hard to implement for largely practical reasons.
-accost Fred in a restaurant
While some on the left would disagree, I think this is generalizable. Mostly due to third parties. I got no problem if Nazi Fred finds America kinda miserable due to Americans. (non-violently) Fuck Nazis, eh? But don't ruin everyone else's day to get your righteous jollies off.
I don't think it's realistic to declare naming and shaming not OK if there may be consequences. That seems not just ungeneralizable, but not implementable by average citizens.
"I will not judge anyone who as a private citizen points out to Fred’s employer that he’s a Nazi."
I always like to invert things, so my model is this: it's 1935 in Alabama. Fred speaks up to say blacks are people just like honkies are, and segregation is an abomination. What reactions is it OK for the community have towards Fred?
Whatever list you come up with, then it's OK - or at least morally consistent - to do to someone who has views, today, that are anathema to you.
I want Fred to have the chance to convince his neighbors that his position is correct, so I don't want anything done to him, other than counterarguments. In particular, I don't want him to lose his job. And he very much would have lost his job, and that kind of enforcement was a big factor in maintaining Jim Crow.
Segregationist communities suck because they're segregationist, not because they don't respect the privacy of anti-segregationists.
Your argument is that we need to keep Fred's Naziism private just in case an intolerant society does the same for their advocates of liberty?!
Nope; not buying it. Your flipping the script creates a contradiction in the hypothetical you cannot resolve.
Line drawing is not easy, nor is it elegant. But it is practical. You run into some real paradox of intolerance issues if you insist on a morality wherein protecting views from consequence is the highest virtue.
“Some points of view are shameful by current social standards. Private consequence for being an asshole include loss of friends, employment opportunities, even access to some institutions.”
Sure, but that’s for truly fringe views — whereas, what we have today is a lot of lefties just trying to *will* certain views to a status of “beyond the pale” that simply aren’t (or at least, aren’t yet…).
I fully support Lawrence v. Texas, but the people who criticized it on policy grounds (e.g., Santorum) or on legal grounds (e.g., Scalia) were absolutely deserving of civil discourse. Good and smart people can be misguided — it happens.
Unless/until there’s a genuine *consensus* on a matter, persuasion is the ONLY stable path for pursuing any consensus. Coercion or shaming or marginalization might work to enforce an *existing* consensus (notwithstanding any ethical issues w/ that…), but not to force one into existence in the first place.
I won't disagree that there is a decidedly illiberal portion of the left with a very narrow view of what speech they will allow. I've also heard just as bad in evangelical churches (though that is likely twitter nutpicking - I allow it is probably more common on the left).
Lawrence was fine to criticize when it came out. That was about 20 years ago. Things change, including social consensus.
Societies always enforce the current consensus - people hate change. That is, again, not new. And while I think it is virtuous to strive to be open minded to heterodox opinions, you and I seem to agree that there are limits where that goes from virtue to dumb. Just not where such limits are.
Which is fine, so long as neither of us gets the government involved!
"Lawrence was fine to criticize when it came out. That was about 20 years ago."
Fair point, but I think polling still shows that it hasn't quite reached a level that could be deemed a *consensus* yet.
And while Obergefell has now reached around 70% support, it's important to note that this includes people who think SSM should be a legal right but also still maintain their moral disagreements (and are thus concerned about bigotry in the *other* direction about that...although the recently passed Respect for Marriage Act is an encouraging gesture of pluralism in that regard...)
"...so long as neither of us gets the government involved!"
Agreed, if we're talking about government regulating speech itself...but I still want generally applicable antitrust laws and common carrier laws (which indirectly facilitate free speech).
I think polling still shows that it hasn’t quite reached a level that could be deemed a *consensus* yet.
I think part of the issue we are seeing is that different social opprobriums have different thresholds where they are appropriate. Not being invited to speak is a lower threshold than, say, the above trying to get someone to lose their job.
I would not want someone who wants to criminalize gay sex to lost their job, but I am fine if a Nazi does. And I'm fine if said gay sex criminalization wanter finds few opportunities to speak outside his own (hopefully increasingly sparse) circles.
So setting a threshold quantity, as is the case for so many morality issues, is too reductive an analysis.
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I'm talking about government regulation of individual actions here, though that does amount to business actions as well.
I'm good with common carriers, but require 1) a showing of necessity, and 2) associated government guarantees akin to a utility, since this amounts to a taking.
Dunno what antitrust has to do here, but I certainly want beefier antitrust laws than we have. Interesting caselaw recently about publishers merging, looking at authors as well as book buyers...
Uh, society did suppress advocacy of decriminalizing sodomy in 1960 and before.
Does the ADF support criminalizing sodomy? The SPLC rap sheet trying to promote it as a hate group shows one quote from a former officer in 2013 and the amicus brief they filed in Lawrence, which doesn’t seem like much of a foundation for that claim.
(To be clear, my views on gay people and how they should be treated under the law are unquestionably very different from those of most ADF members, and I don’t think much of their views on most religious “liberty” issues. But if you’re going to criticize their extreme positions, I think it’s worth verifying that those are, in fact, their positions.)
A brief Google shows ADF International seems into Jamaica banning sodomy.
Very interesting take with a lot of local context here. Particularly of note is the justice drawing attention to a Kansas Bar event with an ADF lawyer that also involved a KU law prof.
https://sentinelksmo.org/ks-supreme-court-justice-caleb-stegall-resigns-teaching-position-over-free-speech-issues/
"to speak to KU Law students about the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause."
That's what I strongly suspected the topic would be, as it is what the ADF concentrates on (and is known for).
Now, why didn’t Donald Trump think of that rationale in the context of justifying what must have been an occasion for much witty, sparkling repartee among his recent dinner guests?