The Volokh Conspiracy
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Free Speech Rules, Free Speech Culture, and Legal Education: More on Teaching for Effective Lawyering
I was invited to participate in a Hofstra Law Review symposium on free speech in law schools, which will be happening in February, and I thought I'd serialize my current draft article; there's still plenty of time to improve it, so I'd love to hear people's comments. Here are some follow-up thoughts on what I think law schools should try to teach, though you can read the whole PDF, if you prefer:
[* * *]
C. Being Willing to Make Arguments That We Disagree With
Lawyers often also have to make arguments that, as independent thinkers, they might disagree with or otherwise find generally distasteful. A lawyer who rejects originalism or textualism may need to make originalist or textualist arguments; likewise, a committed originalist may need to make living constitutional arguments. A lawyer who deeply supports religious freedom may need to respond to the religious freedom claims raised against his client. A lawyer who thinks that practices that have a racially disparate impact are "structural racism" that needs to be fought may nonetheless sometimes need to make an argument that, for a particular client in a particular case, such disparate impact should not be seen as legally significant.
Again, it's normal (and may well be human nature) to view such actions with distaste. As scholars, for instance, we're generally expected to affirmatively make arguments only when we sincerely believe are correct. If we make arguments in our academic work that we believe are mistaken, just to win a point, we may well be condemned as "intellectually dishonest." Likewise, if our friends learn that we are trying to persuade them of something using arguments that we ourselves don't believe, they may view us as insincere and untrustworthy.
But lawyers' duty to their clients requires them to make the best arguments they can, regardless of whether they personally view those arguments as sound. Even if they believe that originalism is logically incoherent, they need to be able to make originalist arguments on their clients' behalf, when they think that the judge is most likely to be persuaded by those arguments. Law schools must thus teach students the kinds of arguments that are effective in various contexts (what Anup Malani has referred to as the educational institution's transmission of culture[1]), entirely apart from whether professors or students agree with all those arguments.
D. Tolerating People Who Hold Views We Condemn
Even beyond the arguments, lawyers need to be able to build a personal connection with the decisionmaker (or with the other party in a negotiation), a connection of cordiality and amity even if not of genuine fellow feeling.
Yes, we might think that people who take view X are horrible people. It is of course human nature (or at least a facet of human nature) to assume the worst of our ideological adversaries—to assume that they are not just mistaken but are "deplorables," fools, pigs, Nazis, Communists, corrupt, and so on. And of course this assumption may sometimes be accurate.
And yet there is the witness, who is a loyal adherent of X—but whose testimony can help keep our client out of jail or financial ruin. Our natural human reaction to the witness might be to want to make clear that we think he should be drummed out of decent society, or even locked up for hate speech or sedition or anti-American conspiracy or what have you. It is human nature to let our feelings show, to greet views and people we disapprove of with condemnation.
But of course what we need to do, as a matter of professional and moral duty to our client, is to build as much of a bridge as we can with the witness. To do that, we will often need to accentuate what we agree about (the importance of justice in this particular case, for example, and the value of telling the truth and remembering the facts as clearly as possible) rather than what we disagree about. And we will need to say all this with a smile and not a sneer.
The witness scenario is just one example. To effectively represent our client, we need to be able to interact effectively with opposing counsel, however reprehensible their views might be. To effectively argue to a judge or jury or arbitrator, we can't come across as people who think they are retrograde yahoos, however much we might disapprove of their views.
And sometimes the gulf between them and us might not be so great. Sometimes we might be able to bridge that gulf by just the right argument, which appeals to both sides' shared beliefs that we can find if we aren't too distracted by focusing on the divergent beliefs. Law schools must teach students to unlearn the habit of always assuming one's enemies are bad people, and to learn instead to be able to take a charitable perspective towards the other side—not because that perspective is always correct, but because it can help yield effective lawyering.
E. Learning from People We Disagree With
It's also human nature to shun people because of their bad actions or bad beliefs. But if we refuse to listen to an accomplished and successful lawyer because we disapprove of that lawyer's views—however morally right our disapproval might be—we lose an opportunity to figure out how best to respond to those views.
We likewise lose an opportunity to figure out how that lawyer managed to become successful despite what we view as his moral benightedness. Might the lawyer have figured out how to frame his views in a way that appeals (again, however wrongly) to important decisionmakers? If so, how can we use that to our advantage, whether to respond to his framing or to borrow it for our own views?
And sometimes one's adversaries might have something of a point, even if only a partial point. I personally think, for instance, that Socialists' bottom line proposals are awful, and have caused untold death and misery; I support free markets, with only those regulations that are really necessary. And yet what regulations are necessary? Perhaps some of the Socialists' critiques of the existing system can help show that, even if their bottom line is wrong.
Likewise if you're trying to figure out the proper way of regulating abortion—even if you're confident that such regulations should be very slight—or of crafting affirmative action programs, or deciding when female-identifying athletes who nonetheless have bodies that are characteristic of males should be allowed to compete in women's sports. (Should just a statement of identification be enough? Should it require some time on testosterone suppressants? Something else?)
Our adversaries might also have a point that we may acknowledge, once we hear it and understand it, will likely sway a lot of people. We might then realize that, for our own proposal to be politically palatable, we'll need to make some modest compromises. Yet the more we keep the other side at a distance, the harder it will be for us to acquire those insights. Again, law schools need to teach students those sorts of skills, and the habits and attitudes—such as a willingness to listen, even to people whose views we loathe—that support them.
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Still to come, in future posts (or you can see it now in the PDF):
I. Teaching for Effective Lawyering
F. Building Coalitions
G. Unflappably Confronting Unpleasant Facts and Arguments
II. Specific Practices
A. Protecting Student Speech (and Speech of Invited Speakers)
B. Responding to Unpopular Views in Ways That Promote Discussion
C. Evenhandedly Encouraging Debates or Conversations Among People Who Disagree
D. Organizing Law-School-Sponsored Events That Model Thoughtful Disagreement on Controversial Topics
1. The value of law-school-organized events
2. The insufficiency of leaving such debates to the classroom
3. Focusing on real current debates
E. Inviting Leading Successful Advocates from All Points on the Ideological Spectrum
F. Encouraging Faculty to Express Dissenting Views
III. Responses to Some Possible Objections
A. Student Upset (Especially as to Views That Are Seen as Derogatory of Their Identities)
B. Vulnerability of Powerless Minority Groups
C. Risk of Persuasiveness
D. Risk of "Legitimizing" Certain Perspectives
E. Losing the Opportunity to Chill Political and Ideological Participation and Organization by the Other Side
[* * *]
[1] See Anup Malani, "Enforcing the First Amendment on Campus Won't, by Itself, Address the Problem of Academic Freedom," Volokh Conspiracy (Reason.com), Nov. 16, 2022, 12:13 pm, https://perma.cc/NM3C-U3AR.
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From the snippet posted here, this looks broadly useful, not only to lawyers, but to advocates in general. Causes outside the courtroom probably do need supporters who, en masse, march, chant and carry carry signs advocating without intent to negotiate compromise but, eventually, successful advocacy comes down to using the processes you describe to reach outcomes (or just whooping them in court).
Does FIRE sponsor people such as you to address the faculty and administrations of universities? That might be a useful complement to reacting to misdeeds.
It would be critical to have the diversity officers, and the president in the event. They are the ones causing the problems and most in need of education about the importance of free speech on campus.
I get the functional argument, but there is also a social/ethical obligation aspect. Refusing to engage is an important tool that one should not leave behind. See, e.g., Sartre's quote from The Jew and the Antisemite. And a simple floodgates of paradigms problem; you can’t spend forever understanding fringe perspectives or you’ll never formulate your own argument.
Accepting all points of views is not costless.
Sartre? Wasn’t he a communist sympathizer? Why should I care what he has to say, or engage with his views?
Do you quote Orwell? GTFO with your redbaiting nonsense.
And your ad hominem. Here is the nut of Sartre's point:
"Never believe that the anti-semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous, or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side.
He chooses to reason from passion, to reason falsely because of the longing for impenetrability. The rational man groans as he gropes for the truth; he knows that reasoning is no more than tentative, that other considerations may intervene to cast doubt on it. Anti-semites are attracted by the durability of a stone. What frightens them is the uncertainty of truth. Anti-semitism, in short, is fear of the human condition. The anti-semite is a man who wishes to be pitiless stone, a furious torrent, a devastating thunderbolt - anything except a man."
Thoughts?
I think you need to retire your handle if you can’t recognize sarcasm.
Who counts as the equivalent of an anti-semite in your metaphor?
As for Sartre’s comment, I presume you’re not trying to convert convinced anti-semites that they’re wrong, just exposing their arguments for the benefit of hypothetical fence-sitters – tell those fence sitters how bad the anti-semitic arguments are.
The worse the argument, the worse the person arguing, then the better case you have with those not already convinced.
Sticking with the anti-semitic analogy - IIRC when some politician went off babbling about Rothschild weather machines or whatever, some local Jewish community leaders invited him in for a friendly chat to try to dissuade him of his views. The assumption was the guy was naive and not acting in bad faith. If they try engagement with that guy, it might be more effective than you're assuming.
And, yes, what you and Jean-Paul say of anti-semites could just as well be said of communist sympathizers, but I've actually cited Sartre in discussions. That's because I'm not all that enthusiastic about disengagement.
I don't know how you interpret non-engagement, but I know how the establishment interprets the concept: ideas - and even facts - which are inconvenient to them are dismissed as hate, etc., and censored.
Anti-Semitism is, "inconvenient," for Jews?
I was thinking of ideas or information like "this virus might have originated in a lab," or "this politician's son has incriminating information on his laptop."
If these ideas are equivalent to anti-semitism, maybe the establishment should be trusted to root them out with censorship.
Prof. Volokh isn't talking about converting anyone either; he's talking about learning to argue against them. But that assumes a paradigm that as Satre points out may not actually be present.
Arguing logic versus emotionalism is a rookie mistake.
I want to be clear here - I'm not saying Prof. Volokh's arguments are wrong; I'm saying he is all benefit and no cost/risk, which is a limited view.
So I now have 3 potential costs:
1) Bad faith. This is about method more than viewpoint, but is strongly correlated with certain views. It is important not to get sucked into debates with those who are only using you to get clout; your victory condition is different than theirs and you will lose.
2) Social mores. Some viewpoints are against social mores. And part of free speech is understanding the role of social consequence remains.
To take a reductive example, the N word. Does this mean never say it? It does not! But it does mean there is a cost to consider in making the decision.
3) Bandwidth. You only have finite time, and there are nigh-infinite viewpoints. Sometimes you will need to prioritize.
I agree about the prioritization part - for the really bad-faith, out-there propagandist, I would undertake a rebuttal if (s)he is showing some signs of influencing fence-sitters.
As for your anti-semitism example (assuming we're not simply talking about critics of Israel - I'm sure we agree the two are not equivalent), antisemitic ideas have indeed found purchase among some people who haven't thought deeply about it and may be open to counterargument. The bad faith of the antisemitic propagandists would be *part* of the counterargument.
Of course, bring your best people, your best debaters and most knowledgeable people, if you want to counter experienced and ruthless propagandists.
All of the above is assuming you've actually identified a pernicious idea with no redeeming value. Not all ideas are that extreme. In fact, many advocates of pernicious ideas claim to be *fighting* hateful un-American propaganda.
I didn't mean to take antisemitism as an example, that's just where Sartre talks about bad faith. But it works!
Talk about antisemitism and why it's dumb. But don't do it by inviting an antisemite to class to debate; that's a win for them. Because to them, it isn't an argument.
Bring you best debaters? That's an extra win for them.
"They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. "
I was presupposing that they were starting to win converts. I was also presupposing maximum bad faith on their part.
But this elaborately-constructed hypothesis of a 100% bad faith propagandist doesn't represent the reality we'll usually encounter.
What if someone believes that there are two sexes, and you're stuck with your sex at birth? Would you be willing to say that, in *that* situation, engagement and debate would be appropriate?
What if someone believes that marriage is between a man and a woman and that public policy should reflect this?
Who's the equivalent of an anti-semite in your metaphor?
Seems to me like you're the one who is constructing an elaborate hypothetical. I didn't ask for or require any of that; I just noted that bad faith actors exist.
And to repeat myself for the third time, in your now very specifically tailored hypo where an idea is gaining steam and also it's 100% bad, then what you do is engage the idea not the people behind the idea.
I see you didn't reply to my other questions. Which is up to you, of course. But your silence has its own eloquence.
All of your questions are the same hypothetical I just answered with different flavors.
No, they aren't.
No need to specify any ideology in particular - the point is that there must be some limit, or you have the issue Sartre lays out.
If the bad ideologue is winning supporters, then it’s time to counter the propaganda in some way – if you’re into censorship and trust the would-be censors, go ahead, otherwise you’ll have to come up with some way to sway whoever is showing signs of believing the propaganda.
If you don't refute the propagandist, and you shun censorship as a cure worse than the disease, then the propagandist can boast that his case is unanswerable.
Sartre, and I agree with him, does not believe that direct engagement with a bad faith actor will ever lead you to counter them.
That doesn't mean you can't engage with the concepts, if they are gaining traction. But if they are not, then you do society a disservice by foregrounding stuff so it can gain support.
I also really don't care for calling 'I'm not gonna talk to you' censorship.
I’m accepting your hypothesis of a totally evil bad faith propagandist whose ideas have no social value. If such evildoers are persuading people, then counterpersuasion – even public debate – seems one way to go, proportioned to the danger.
At the same time, I really don’t trust the establishment gatekeepers who tell us which ideas are out of bounds and undiscussable. It may be that, on consideration, some of the hated Other’s points may turn out to be valid (eg, the establishment belatedly acknowledging that maybe there was a lab leak and sure, the laptop is genuine).
What if such evildoers are not persuading people?
If you don't trust establishment gatekeepers, then you have a problem.
You can trust some other gatekeepers, in which case you're just inserting your own priors.
Or you are left without gates. Which is problematic for the 3 reasons I describe above.
“What if such evildoers are not persuading people?”
No need to engage them. Remember I’m accepting your hypothesis that they really *are* evil, unlike most real-life people who may have valid points but are denounced as evil by people who might well be evildoers themselves.
Would you agree that establishment gatekeepers were wrong about the laptop and maybe the lab? If they were, why do *you* trust them?
Or rather, were they wrong *then,* when they made those subjects outside the legitimate parameters of debate, or are they wrong *now,* when they say there was something to those stories after all?
Or were they somehow right both times? Or maybe we should put up with their errors for the higher good of fighting misinformation?
“What if such evildoers are not persuading people?”
No need to engage them.
I would agree. Prof. Volokh may disagree.
Would you agree that establishment gatekeepers were wrong about the laptop and maybe the lab?
I would not.
We heard nonstop about the laptop, and issues twitter had with it had nothing to do with the accuracy of the story. Plus the contents remain nebulous, with the right promising the moon.
And lab leak remains utterly unsupported, bolstered only by the relative weakening of alternatives - anyone saying it's a slam dunk remains a liar.
At the moment your examples remain right wing conventional wisdom and nothing more.
And, finally, you have not addressed my point about the logistical issues with your declaration against gatekeepers. Bring up as many right wing persecution complexes as you want - that's just you picking a different (and much much worse) gatekeeper.
"anyone saying it’s a slam dunk remains a liar."
Not what I said.
"Bring up as many right wing persecution complexes as you want – that’s just you picking a different (and much much worse) gatekeeper."
From 2020, here are the gatekeepers in whom you place such trust:
"House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-CA) said the Hunter Biden laptop stories are part of a Russia-spawned disinformation campaign targeting Biden. The FBI is currently investigating whether the materials in question were released as part of a possible foreign disinformation operation. More than 50 former senior intelligence officials have expressed their belief that the dump of emails allegedly belonging to Joe Biden’s son “has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.”"
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-state-media-is-desperately-trying-to-keep-the-hunter-biden-story-alive
And here's CBS, that notorious right-wing outlet:
"Data from a laptop that the lawyer for a Delaware computer repair shop owner says was left by Hunter Biden in 2019 – and which the shop owner later provided to the FBI under subpoena – shows no evidence of tampering or fabrication, according to an independent review commissioned by CBS News....
"The independent analysis, by two cyber investigators from Minneapolis-based Computer Forensics Services, found no evidence that the user data had been modified, fabricated or tampered with. Nor did it find any new files originating after April 2019, when store records indicate Biden dropped it off for repair....
"That everyday use of the laptop appears to have come to an abrupt halt in March 2019, according to the audit. That was a few weeks before the computer was brought in for repairs, apparently the result of liquid damage.
"The audit turned up more than 120,000 emails, approximately 30,000 text messages, as well as pictures, video, personal forms of identification and voicemails from the user profile data.
"Computer Forensics Services' chief technology officer, Mark Lanterman, said he believes it's clear the data was created by Hunter Biden."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hunter-biden-laptop-data-analysis/
"a different (and much much worse) gatekeeper"
I'm a bit confused by this...what gatekeeper are you referring to?
“What if such evildoers are not persuading people?”
I'm sort of curious how you know that.
"and issues twitter had with it had nothing to do with the accuracy of the story."
Well, their excuses had nothing to do with accuracy, anyway. Happily, Musk ended up with control of Twitter, and is shortly going to release the internal deliberations which led to the suppression. Ought to be interesting.
Margrave, you pivoted rights into right-wing talking points. How boring.
Brett, Margrave is into overdetermined hypotheticals. If you want a thesis more grounded in real world nuance, look at my OP.
-The hypotheticals were your own. I met you on your own terms.
-The right-wing propaganda outlets I cited were the Daily Beast and CBS.
-It would be less boring if you clarified your positions as I requested. Of course, you don’t have to say anything, but your silence is fairly loud.
“Never believe that the anti-semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies"
The absurdity is often intentional -- do not underestimate that fact.
Somewhat off-topic, but I just saw last night that the Supreme Court has granted ceritorari in a case concerning the scope of the Section 230 immunity. Gonzalez v. Google. You can see the docket here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/21-1333.html
Briefly, the plaintiffs are relatives and the estate of Nohemi Gonzalez, a 23-year-old U.S. citizen studying in Paris, France, who was murdered (along with 128 others) when three ISIS terrorists fired into a crowd of diners at La Belle Equipe bistro in Paris. Their chief complaint is against Youtube for allowing ISIS to post recruitment videos on Youtube. They assert this consisted of providing material assistance to, and aiding and abetting, ISIS, a terrorist organization, in violation of the federal Anti-Terrorism Act.
At SCOTUS, they concede that Youtube’s merely permitting ISIS to post videos is immunized by Section 230. But they also allege that Google’s algorithms affirmatively “recommend” these videos to certain users, and that this “recommending” function is beyond the Section 230 immunity, as that is not a normal editorial function immunized by Section 230.
Whether recommending enjoys Section 230 immunity is apparently very controversial both among appellate judges and academic commentators. That is ostensibly what the Supreme Court will decide. So we will see if Section 230 is reigned in somewhat.
Let me add my two cents. Section 230 does contain several exemptions. (I was counsel in the first case to litigate one of them, the intellectual property exception.) Another exception:
Terrorism is a federal crime, and in theory a website or ISP could be criminally prosecuted for assisting terrorism. Section 230 would not help. But federal law also provides for civil remedies for those who are victims of terrorism. 18 U.S.C. § 2333. (This is becoming more and more common — Congress appends civil remedies to criminal statutes. A bad trend, IMO.) Were I representing the plaintiffs, I would also argue that a civil action such as they bring is also “enforcement” of the criminal terrorism statutes, and is thus exempt from Section 230 immunity. In any case, I though this would be of interest to readers here.
Can't obstruct federal criminal statutes...what about state criminal statutes?
"Whether recommending enjoys Section 230 immunity is apparently very controversial both among appellate judges and academic commentators."
Ought to be, if you ask me. Section 230 immunity has to do with content originating with users. Recommendations aren't that.
"Terrorism is a federal crime, and in theory a website or ISP could be criminally prosecuted for assisting terrorism. Section 230 would not help."
Where is the line between reporting on terrorism and assisting terrorism? Back in the '70s & '80s, there were a lot of plane hijackings and the TV network news covered them in depth. They told their viewers who the terrorists were, what they wanted, why they were doing it, etc.
Free publicity is definitely of assistance to terrorism -- I often wondered if we would be better off if the media didn't report on hijacked airliners at all.
So what does this mean today? The First Amendment doesn't have an "only if you work for NBC News" exception in it -- and if we had those sorts of hijackings again, I'm sure bloggers and blog sites would be covering it.
The videos at issue were ISIS recruitment videos, not news reports on ISIS terrorist acts. The former likely does not enjoy 1st Amendment protection.
We could start with educating judges on how to take withering criticism from members of the bar.
Even if they believe that originalism is logically incoherent, they need to be able to make originalist arguments on their clients' behalf, when they think that the judge is most likely to be persuaded by those arguments.
So if you are in front of an originalist judge with minimal historical knowledge, and the originalist argument which will convince him demands lying about the historical record, it's not only okay, but necessary to do that?
"So if you are in front of an originalist judge with minimal historical knowledge, and the originalist argument which will convince him demands lying about the historical record, it’s not only okay, but necessary to do that?"
As an officer of the court, you are not supposed to lie.
Only applies to public defenders; everyone else can refuse the client.
Should you be allowed to?
Or is the price of enjoying limited access to the profession the ethical obligation to take on all payers? Medical Doctors are required to do that --- and can't dump a patient until they find someone else to take him.