The Volokh Conspiracy
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Surviving Home Invaders May Be Charged with Murder After Resident Shot and Killed One of Them in Self-Defense
Atlanta TV station 11alive (Addie Haney) reports:
Police now believe four people were involved in a shooting in east Atlanta's Gresham Park neighborhood and that it started as an attempted home invasion. One person has since died in connection to the shooting, according to police….
At this time, police said the shooting "appears justified" and no charges are expected to be filed against the the person who fired the shot.
The three surviving subjects are expected to be charged with felony murder because of the death of their alleged accomplice. The two adults will also be charged with home invasion.
What's with the murder charges?, you might ask. Here's the answer, from a very similar story from a 2015 Georgia Supreme Court case, Hill v. State:
[Jarmal Hill] and [Calvin] Lavant, … entered [an] apartment [in which a party was taking place] through an open sliding glass door. [Hill] was armed with a black handgun and Lavant had a silver revolver; both men were dressed in black clothes and wore caps along with bandanas covering their noses and mouths.
[Hill] and Lavant ordered everyone in the apartment to lie on the floor and took their wallets, cell phones, and other valuables. Two former United States Marines, Sean Barner and James Adams, were attending the party but had gone outside briefly a few minutes before the home invasion; when they returned, they too were ordered at gunpoint to lie on the floor, and [Hill] and Lavant took their cell phones, a wallet, and an iPod. [Note that Barner was, in fact, a Marine, not a former Marine, at the time of the events. -EV]
[Hill] and Lavant ransacked the apartment for other items of value, and then decided to separate their male and female prisoners. The men were forced at gunpoint to go into the back bedroom and lie on the floor there, and two of the female guests were forced into the other bedroom, while the other two female guests remained in the living room.
Lavant said to [Hill], "we are about to have sex with these girls, then we are going to kill them all." Barner heard [Hill] and Lavant discussing condoms and the number of bullets in their guns, and he decided that he needed to act. He had brought his book bag to the party, with his pistol in it, and, fortuitously, the bag was behind the bed in the bedroom where he was lying.
Barner took out his gun, stood up, and walked down the hallway into the living room with Adams following closely behind him. Barner saw [Hill] standing by the front door of the apartment looking out and opened fire on [Hill], who ran out the sliding glass door.
Barner then rushed back to the bedroom where Lavant was holding two of the women, shouted for everyone to get down, and broke down the door with his shoulder. Lavant had ordered the two women to bend over the bed, pulled one of the women's underwear aside, and placed a condom over his penis.
When Barner crashed into the room, Lavant started shooting at him. Barner fired back at Lavant, who fled through a window. Lavant was shot in the face and thigh, and one of the women in the room was hit in the arm and both legs, but she survived.

Lavant later died of his injuries—and Hill (the surviving home invader) was convicted not just of armed robbery, aggravated assault, false imprisonment, burglary and attempted rape, but also of Lavant's murder.
[1.] That's because in Georgia and in some other states, a felon can be guilty of murder if a victim (or a police officer or a bystander) kills the felon's accomplice. The basic legal principle is this: Many state murder statutes (including Georgia's) provide that someone is guilty of so-called "felony murder" "when, in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being." One can thus be guilty of murder in such a situation even if one doesn't intend to kill.
And "causes" is a capacious term. Obviously, shooting someone so that he immediately dies counts as causing death. But so could, for instance (to quote a Georgia Supreme Court decision's summary of an earlier case), "smash[ing] the victim's skull with a hatchet" even though "the victim die[s] nine months later from infection and gangrenous lung abscess." So could "throwing the drunken victim off a bridge into a river" if this causes the victim to drown. The criminal is guilty of felony murder so long as the "proximate cause" requirement is satisfied, which is to say that (1) the death wouldn't have happened but for the defendant's actions, and (2) the death was foreseeable.
So say that robber Rob and his accomplice Alec are robbing victim Vic, and Vic pulls out a gun and shoots and kills Alec. A jury might be able to find that the death wouldn't have happened but for Rob's actions (since Alec might have been unwilling to commit the crime by himself). And the jury could find that there was a reasonably foreseeable possibility (not certainty or even probability, but just a foreseeable possibility) that Vic would use deadly force to defend himself against Alec. In states that follow the "proximate cause" approach, Rob would then be guilty of murder, because "in the commission of a felony [robbery], he cause[d] the death" of Alec. The same would happen if it is police officer Polly who kills Alec.
[2.] But that's the minority view. The majority of states that have opined on this question follow the "agency" approach, under which felons are guilty of felony murder only if the immediate human cause of the death is one of the felons. If Alec kills Vic (even accidentally), then both Rob and Alec are guilty of felony murder. But if Vic kills Alec, Rob isn't guilty of the felony murder of Alec, since the immediate human cause of the death was Vic. One common argument for the agency view is that, when Vic kills Alec, that's not murder at all—that's Vic's justifiable defensive killing of Alec. Therefore, Alec's killing is not felony murder on the part of Rob (who is guilty of robbery and conspiracy to rob, but nothing more).
[3.] Okay, so we know what happens if Vic kills Alec—felony murder on Rob's part in the proximate cause states, not any crime on Rob's part in the agency states.
But what if Vic (or police officer Polly) shoots at Alec, but accidentally kills bystander Betty? In the proximate cause states, Rob is guilty, since that sort of unfortunate event is foreseeable (it's foreseeable that Vic would try to defend himself and that this self-defense in the heat of the moment will accidentally kill someone else). In the agency states, Rob isn't guilty, since Vic is the immediate human cause of the death.
Yet wait: There's a third, small category of states (which at least includes New York)—in those states, Rob would be guilty of felony murder for the death of bystander Betty, but wouldn't be guilty of felony murder for the death of accomplice Alec.
The focus in those third-way states is on who dies (felony murder if anyone dies other than one of the criminals). The focus in the agency states is on who kills (felony murder only if the immediate human cause of the death is one of the criminals). And in the proximate cause states, it's felony murder if anyone dies, so long as the death is foreseeable and wouldn't have happened if the defendant hadn't participated in the crime. (Actually, these requirements of foreseeability and but-for causation for a felony murder conviction would also apply in the non-proximate-cause states; it's just that in those other states there are also the extra requirements I discuss above.)
[* * *]
Back then to the Hill case. From 1981 to 2010, Georgia had precedents on the books making it an agency state; but in State v. Jackson (2010), the Georgia Supreme Court overruled those precedents—by a 4-3 vote—and adopted the proximate cause view. And because this sort of overruling of precedent can generally be applied retroactively (except when it can't, itself a complicated question), that decision was applied to Hill.
The jury found that Hill's participation was an actual cause of Lavant's death and that trying to rob the party could foreseeably lead to one of the victims killing Lavant. So though Barner justifiably killed Lavant, Hill murdered Lavant. And the same logic would apply to the case with which I started this post.
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So, what's the problem?
No problem. Just different approaches taken by different states.
The problem is that people are being charged with murder when they didn't murder anyone.
The non-problem is that people who criminally set up circumstances where somebody might be killed get charged with murder when it actually happens. It's just "strict liability" for the reasonably anticipated consequences of criminal acts, really.
Amen
I've never liked it.
This will not act as deterrent, it is upcharging non-murder crimes via rube-goldberg causality ('criminally set up circumstances...') for purely retributive reasons.
It lacks mens rea, and doesn't have the charactartistics that lend itself to strict liability.
It's pure retribution. The state should not be in that business.
If a burglar brings a gun with him, or has an accomplice with a gun, there's your mens rea, the clear knowledge that someone may die.
By that logic, why not convict anyone who walks around with a gun?
...or drives a car? That's pretty bullshit even for you.
It is bullshit.
But it follows Alphabet's logic about carrying a gun.
Thus demonstrating that logic is itself bullshit.
Criminals in possession of a gun to facilitate is not the equivalent of a person legally carrying a gun for his own defense.
Alphabet's logic is fine.
As Mr Bumble says, the logic is fine, and such a clear difference that your pretense of not understanding the difference doesn't fool anyone.
No it does not, unless the person is carrying in the commission of a felony.
Why does that change the gun into something that indicates knowledge someone might die from just a tool?
You're adding a new rule because alphabet's logic was too simplistic.
Because the burglar was intent on committing a crime? Maybe that is meaningless. But his mens rea was to do something illegal, and included threatening death.
It's hard to take you seriously when you are so purposely pretending to be naive.
his mens rea was to do something illegal, and included threatening death.
Yes. So prosecute him for that.
Because because we generally distinguish between harmlessly exercising a civil right, and harmfully committing crimes?
So prosecute him for what he actually did.
Equating anyone carrying for self defense to men who carried to commit robbery, rape, and who expressed intent to kill their rape victims?
That's some serious antigun nuttery there.
I think there is different motive and intent between people who carry for self-defense and people who carry to commit crimes.
Yes. And what I'm advocating is that people should be prosecuted for the things they intended. (Translating the concept of mens rea into plain English.)
"It’s pure retribution. The state should not be in that business."
Why not? Who should be in that business?
"upcharging non-murder crimes via rube-goldberg causality"
That is pure question begging, assuming the conclusion that you wish to reach.
Which is bullshit. Remember the concept on men’s rea? This guy had zero intent as to murder.
If Charlie is driving a car without a driver’s license and gets run into by a drunk and the drunk is killed is Charlie then guilty of intoxication manslaughter?
We keep coming up with more and more bullshit reasons to put people in prison for longer and longer, and self identified liberty living conservatives cheer it on. Punish the guy for what he did, nothing more.
I guess y’all are just CINOs.
He had intent to commit a crime, where the crime could be reasonably anticipated to carry the risk of somebody dying.
Society has no reason to extend "you didn't intend that result" type reasoning to illegal and themselves wrongful acts.
Intent is no longer a component of a crime, then. Interesting.
So yes, Charlie would be guilty of intoxication manslaughter for being hit by the drunk driver?
Intent is absolutely a component of this crime. He intended to commit an armed home invasion. Do you think he didn't know that this carried the risk of someone dying, or that it wasn't legal?
The problem is that the actual shooter, knowing he is guilty, takes a plea deal while the accomplish doesn’t (as he didn’t kill anyone) and winds up serving a much longer sentence than the actual shooter.
EG: “Allen, 48, served 27 years in prison for his role in the 1994 murder of Purvis Bester during an attempted robbery in Brockton. Allen was in the other room when his friend stabbed Bester, and the friend, who took a plea deal, has since been released on parole. “
https://commonwealthmagazine.org/criminal-justice/governors-council-commutes-sentences-of-two-men-convicted-of-murder/
I agree that when THAT happens, it is a problem. One of the reasons I oppose the practice of plea bargaining. People should be charged with the exact offense they are reasonably thought to have committed, no more, no less, and then the state is obligated to prove it.
In the immediate case, of course, the shooter was a home owner lawfully defending themselves.
So accept that your intentional illegal actions caused someone's death and take a plea deal for it. Problem solved.
"Punish the guy for what he did, nothing more. "
They are, he participated in a murder, so gets charged for it.
"If Charlie is driving a car without a driver’s license and gets run into by a drunk and the drunk is killed is Charlie then guilty of intoxication manslaughter?"
A dumb comparison. The lack of a license had nothing to do with the drunk nor is a license actual proof of ability to drive.
"If Charlie is driving a car without a driver’s license and gets run into by a drunk and the drunk is killed is Charlie then guilty of intoxication manslaughter?"
In some states, he's guilty of misdemeanor manslaughter (which roughly tracks with felony murder).
"We keep coming up with more and more bullshit reasons"
Felony murder and misdemeanor manslaughter have been crimes since before the United States was a thing, and were the law in every colony and every state at inception. Some have ditched or weakened these laws, which is to say we've found fewer reasons, not more, in this specific context.
The only bull I see is you. How do you know his intent? You say he had zero, yet the conversation (believe it or not) they discussed killing everyone. Humm, what about rape? Guess that was ok to.
By the way, the defendant shot back. Are you shot he shot because he wasn't trying to murder anyone?
You know, maybe if these 2 didn't break into someone's house to you rob them, they wouldn't be on trial for murder.
Your Charlie scenario isn't even close to this. Charlie wasn't drunk so intoxication is off the table. Mansalughter, unless he is aiming for the guy - no.
You keep saying for the crimes he has done - so if I plan on murdering someone and I fail, I go free and can try again?
You said like a Lib who believes that it's all the victims fault.
I have zero problems with this, but ...
Only when the "non-murderer" accomplice came armed, or knew that his fellow criminals came armed. Committing a crime with arms to aid in the crime, to threaten the victims so they obey, comes with the known possibility that someone could die.
Or if the crime has a known chance of encountering an armed victim who might fight back, such as burgling a house at night or robbing a gas station. Not for, say, shoplifting or stealing an unoccupied car or burgling an empty closed store.
Far as I'm concerned, if you use, or pretend to use, lethal force as a threat in committing a crime, you are responsible for every death that occurs during that crime.
Don't threaten to kill people and then plead you didn't mean it, it was all a mistake, your gun was empty, it was an airsoft replica, it was a water pistol, it was your finger in your pocket.
Sounds pretty much standard, no surprises here: You set out to commit a crime which involves any risk of somebody dying, and somebody dies, expect to be charged with murder even if you didn't kill them.
And if you don't like that? Maybe don't set out to commit crimes.
It sounds standard because it used to be the law in California, the source of most of our TV and movies. But not everywhere. The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts decided in the 19th century that a death of a co-conspirator was not to be considered murder. What remained of the felony murder doctrine was essentially abolished here in 2017; it only serves now to elevate second degree murder to first degree murder if committed in the course of a felony punishable by life in prison.
For the same reason – California – it is common knowledge that the age of consent of 18. It is 18 in California, but 16 is quite common. (The scene that pops into my head is Robin Williams as Garp asking his babysitter how old she was.)
But murder implies intent. When people rob a store, there is no intent for a bystander, and definitely not one of the robbers to be murdered. If prosecutors must go that route, charging the criminals with reckless endangerment or a similar charge seems to make a lot more sense.
The common law theory was that the intent -- malice aforethought -- of the accompanying felony took the place of the intent to kill. It's a fiction, but in modern terms you can say the intent to engage in a highly dangerous criminal act -- armed robbery, arson, a few others -- is treated as the equivalent of intention to kill.
BTW, what's your view of transferred intent? I.e., I intend to kill X, whom I hate. Bullet misses, kills Y, who just happened to be walking by. Murder? (IIRC, in all states the answer is yes.)
But is it PREMEDITATED murder?
Murder does not have to be premediated. Just intent to kill. Although premeditation may up it to First Degree Murder in some states
Murder doesn't have to require intent. Depraved indifference - more or less an aggressive indifference as to whether others live or die - is sufficient in many states.
If you point a gun at a crowd, pull the trigger without aiming at anyone in particular, and pull the trigger until the gun is empty, that may not be an intent to kill, but it is assuredly willingness to do so for no particular reason.
Hence the talk about near inevitability of foreseeable consequences.
Wow--think about what you've written:
So I am minding my business, and some thug tries to kill someone, misses, and kills me, and it's not murder? OK--ever hear of transferred intent?
We're getting near a question that I was asked in college.
Dave and Jane, a married couple, are having an argument in their third floor apartment. At the same time Joe is on the ledge of his tenth floor apartment. Joe jumps intending to commit suicide. In the mean time Dave pulls out a gun intending to shoot Jane. Dave fires, missing Jane, but hitting and killing Joe as he falls past their window. Is Dave guilty of murder?
From a practical standpoint, it only takes 3-4 seconds for Joe to hit the ground, and then there is the Medical Examiner's evaluation of what actually killed Joe. It is theoretically possible for Joe to be mortally wounded and die from fall injuries.
Maybe Joe is guilty of reckless endangerment.
To answer the question: only if Joe was still alive when he was hit by Dave's bullet.
But the thugs in these cases weren't trying to kill anyone. That may seem like nuance, but it's pretty important nuance.
They were counting the number of bullets they had to see if they had enough to kill everybody. It sure sounds like they had the intent to kill. If I had a weapon I really wouldn't let them try before taking them out.
Wait, so since they didn't have time to murder people you are ok with them going. You give them a slap on the wrist, they go and rob again and murder someone right?
You know choices have consequences. They came with a gun. They forced themselves on women. Conversation if you believe it or not, stated they wanted to kill everyone.
This isn't you walking into a store saying I want to kill everyone and not taking action or having a weapon. You are trying to guess their intent here.
You keep throwing around intent. I don't think you understand that word. If I go to rob a store, there is always a possible of the clerk being killed. The intent is to force violence if I don't get want I want. You think it's only a robbery, yet to accomplish a robber violence is always there. Just because murders don't always happen doesn't mean it wasn't on the table.
If they "wanted to kill everyone" but failed for some reason, prosecute them for attempted murder.
I'm not defending criminals here, but the situation I wonder about is where Reckless Rick -- a police officer neither known for his judgment nor his marksmanship (such officers do exist) sends most of his clip into the adjacent unit, killing someone.
This I have a hard time "anticipating" -- and there is the issue of Furman v. Georgia as well, if you want to make this a capital offense.
Yeah, that's a different case with Police Immunity and stuff.
I don't disagree wtih you.
Given that the robbers were armed how could there not be a foreseeability that someone might die?
My position exactly. Bringing a gun implies you expect the possibility of shooting someone. They were both armed, they were overheard agreeing they would kill some or all of the victims.
Even if only one brought a gun -- if the other gunless criminal knew the other had a gun, he must have understood there was a possibility of his buddy shooting someone.
OK. And if the robbers were carrying unloaded guns, so they couldn't possibly shoot someone, and one of them was shot by the storekeeper. Would that qualify?
Yes, because it's well-known (or at least should be) that if you threaten someone with an empty gun, that person you threaten can respond with lethal force.
Why is everyone here eager to try to find borderline scenarios -- all of which are already well-established in self-defense law -- in trying to get the people explicitly threatening innocents with death off the hook for their criminal intent?
Well not everyone here a few. It's because nowadays it's the victims fault, and the criminal is just misunderstood.
People don't seem to realize there is a reason that Japan doesn't have much crime. There is a reason crime is growing in the US.
Yeah, I should have said "are so many" rather than "is everyone" -- I am, after all, here, so I'm my own counter-example, and I'm certainly not alone here, either!
The photograph shows Ensign Barner in a Navy, not Marine uniform, and there are no Ensigns in the Marines.
Further confused by the photo credit which lists USMC.
I was also reminded of the slogan "Once a Marine, always a Marine" -- one of my bosses emphasized that he was a retired Marine, not a former Marine or ex-Marine, and that the only ex-Marines are the ones in graveyards.
(He was conveniently glossing over those who were dishonorably discharged. While he is a nice guy and a good manager, I never did figure out how he got chops for engineering prowess.)
Sorry but either your boss explained it wrong or you are remembering it wrong.
An ex-Marine is one who was dishonorably discharged.
A retired Marine is one who served his/her full tour of service and re-upped enough times to qualify for (and is now receiving) military pension and retirement benefits.
A former Marine is one who served his/her full tour of service but either decided not to re-up or medicalled out before retiring.
Dying does not make you an ex-Marine.
I was curious about that too. I'm not sure, but it seems like he was first Sgt. Barner in the Marine Corps, then he was in the Navy ROTC at the time of the incident, then he was commissioned as an Ensign, which was his rank at the time the medal was awarded. But various sources don't all agree exactly.
One example::
"Navy and Marine Corps Medal awarded to GSU grad who is now an ensign
...
Marine Sgt. Sean Barner and a friend were returning to a birthday party at a College Park, Ga., apartment after going outside to get some fresh air when they saw the attendees sitting silently in the living room."
Indeed; I updated the caption accordingly. To quote a Marine Corps Times article, "At the time of the robbery, he was studying nearby at Georgia State University as part of the Marine Corps Enlisted Commissioning Education Program. He switched to the Navy's Seaman to Admiral-21 Program the next month."
The medal, as it happens, is awardable both to sailors and Marines: It's "the Navy and Marine Corps Medal," "the highest honor a sailor or Marine can received for valor in a non-combat situation."
"“At the time of the robbery, he was studying nearby at Georgia State University as part of the Marine Corps Enlisted Commissioning Education Program. He switched to the Navy’s Seaman to Admiral-21 Program the next month.”"
Depending on exactly what the Georgia State program was, he may not have even officially been in the Marines yet. I'm thinking of Army ROTC where for the first couple years, you're just a college student taking classes. Then they (Army) decides if it wants you and you decide if you want them -- and a formalized agreement is signed if both do, although you don't get your commission until graduation from the college.
What makes me suspicious is his switching to the Navy's program -- the Marines are part of the USN, and the Navy may have permitted this after he had already signed a contract with the Marines, but...
"Depending on exactly what the Georgia State program was, he may not have even officially been in the Marines yet."
In your experience, do people in ROTC, who have yet to be commissioned, generally hold the rank of sergeant?
Or, for goodness sake, google the hint EV gave:
"The MECEP gives enlisted Marines without a college degree the opportunity to attend a university while remaining on active duty. Accepted Marines attend a 10-week session at Officer Candidates School prior to starting their education. Marines in MECEP become attached to NROTC units where they act as additional staff members."
I wasn't aware of ACTIVE duty servicemen being able to attend a university. Is this a fairly new practice?
It isn't new. In 1985 I was a Third Class Petty Officer. I was accepted for Officer's Candidate School (think of the movie An Officer and a Gentleman). Upon completion of the school I would have been commissioned as an Ensign. After I served a three year assignment, the Navy would have paid for my College.
Of course my getting banged up and a medical re-enlistment code screwed this up.
re: "do people in ROTC, who have yet to be commissioned, generally hold the rank of sergeant"
Yes, once they sign their contract (usually in your junior year of college).
That does not appear to be the case here, however. It appears that he was an active Marine before joining college.
Far as I know, midshipmen at the Naval Academy do not choose Navy or Marines until they graduate, or possibly the last year or such.
Maybe an enlisted Marine sent to the Academy is no longer a Marine, just a midshipman.
"At the time in 2009, Barner was an active duty Marine attending Georgia State University as part of the Marine Enlisted Commissioning Education Program (MECEP) before switching to the Navy’s Seaman to Admiral (STA-21) program, and a member of the Atlanta Consortium NROTC unit."
https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/519216/navy-ensign-awarded-medal-for-heroism/
Active duty attending Georgia State?
That’s a new one for me…
Although if the rule is that Officers have to have a college degree, perhaps the Marines are sending people to college.
Not sure about the Marines, but the Air Force has its Airman Education and Commissioning Program (AECP), where active duty Air Force enlisted personnel (have) the opportunity to earn a commission while completing their bachelor's degree.
https://www.liveabout.com/airman-education-and-commissioning-program-aecp-3331771
Did you read the award? It says for Navy and Marine medal.
In Minneapolis in 1986, two thugs tried an armed robbery at a pharmacy. The pharmacist shot and killed one and the other was charged with his murder. It was the first time that kind of case had been brought in minnesota.
I agree with other commenters that this is a pretty familiar consequence of the felony murder rule, and in fact a pretty standard example that people use to explain why it is bonkers.
1. As Prof. Volokh points out, it is not standard, because there are different ways in which the felony murder rule is applied, some of which would yield guilt, some not.
2. Nothing bonkers about it. If you set off a dangerous situation, you should be prepared to live with the consequences. If you set fire to a building -- even one you think is empty -- and then the fire spreads and someone dies, you are guilty of murder. That is in effect what these people did -- they engaged in a highly dangerous activity, armed robbery, where there was a high chance of someone being shot and then dying.
I didn't say it was "standard", I said it was familiar. Then I went on to say that it was a "standard example", as in: hypo, that people use to explain the felony murder rule. (As I myself have done many times on this blog when the felony murder rule has come up.)
And yes, we get it, you think that all felons should be locked up for life. Nobody ever lost an election by being tough on crime. yada yada yada
Land of the Free FTW!!!
“Nobody ever lost an election by being tough on crime. yada yada yada”
Yes, it turns out voters have a strong preference to not be murdered or otherwise the victim of violent crime, which realistically means keeping predators in cages. If you want to try to persuade voters that they should put predator interests ahead of their own, then you are welcome to do so. Predators vote too, of course, but are thankfully outnumbered by regular people. Good luck.
That sum is a lot easier if you disenfranchise felons and poor people...
Stop heaving the shit. Who do you think you are? Queen altamea or Nige?
But we don't disenfranchise poor people. Personally, I don't think we should disenfranchise felons, either, beyond the duration of their sentence. But the public preference for 'tough on crime' policies is robust enough that felon re-enfranchisement is hardly relevant.
Sure you don't. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/04/upshot/voting-wait-times.html
What is your problem with that point of view when an unlawful death is cause?
If you set off a dangerous situation, you should be prepared to live with the consequences.
You do understand that most of the rest of criminal law is not set up like this. Negligence as opposed to intent generally leads to lesser liability, not greater.
Arson is a great counterexample, except that it does not have the intervening cause that felony murder has.
It's not negligence, it's recklessness. Armed robberies often end up with people being killed. That's the "armed" part.
And recklessness doesn't usually get you a (first degree) murder conviction.
Except there is no required finding of recklessness required. The theory is strict liability, like statutory rape. Except the deterence theory is pretty weak in this case.
It is not "strict liability." That's ridiculous. As I pointed out, most jurisdictions limit the felony murder rule to highly dangerous felonies, usually a specified list.
In Georgia, for example, the felony has to be "inherently dangerous" AND that has to be determined on the facts of the case. For example, in one 2021 case, the Georgia Supreme Court held that possession of a gun by a felon might or might not qualify, depending on the facts of the case:
Moon v. State, 311 Ga. 421, 425–26, 858 S.E.2d 18, 22 (2021)
The harshest result possible in this case will be just, to the extent anything is bonkers it's that we're far too lenient on home invaders when they're lucky and their choices don't lead to death. Had it not been for the dead body, these predators would have been back on the streets in a few days and received at most some form of probation or a short sentence after pretending they were sorry to a judge. It's true the corpse means they'll face actual consequences, but the answer isn't to be softer on them; it's to be harder on predators even when their crimes don't lead to corpses.
By God, we are terribly lenient on crime. That’s why we lead the free world in incarceration. By a lot. We’re just not tuff enough on criminals.
We have more prisoners because we have more violent criminals. If you're troubled by that, then take it up with them. They could do anything with their lives and chose to be violent criminals. That's on them, not us. We could have a USA free of violent crime tomorrow if the criminals would just stop doing violent crimes. They refuse.
Americans are special because we're more violently criminal than everywhere else?
That's...a take.
Somebody's doing all the crime and it's not the crime fairy. It doesn't appear to be immigrants either, who have comparable rates of crime with natives. I don't like it either, but if you're troubled by this once again take it up with the violent criminals. They are the ones choosing to be violent criminals.
Legal immigrants are not in the same class as illegal aliens.
I wonder if they could try a criminal justice system that focuses on rehabilitation and not on profits for private prison corporations, maybe that would work.
"profits for private prison corporations"
This hoary chestnut. Only a tiny percentage of prisoners are housed in private prisons. It is not in any way a "focus" of our system.
"Private Prisons in the United States
By Mackenzie Buday and Ashley Nellis, Ph.D.
August 23, 2022
Twenty-six states and the federal government incarcerated 99,754 people in private prisons in 2020, representing 8% of the total state and federal prison population."
Facts confuse Nige.
"we are terribly lenient on crime"
In fact we are. We routinely let criminals get probation [or brief local jail sentence] for a series of crimes before they get a longer sentence. If we punished appropriately early, many victims would be spared.
This is a thing that isn't true, but maybe someone who spends all his time watching Tucker Carlson might think is true.
What is the un-bonkers felony murder rule in most European countries?
You arrest the home-owner for having an illegal gun.
Well yes, if they're not supposed to have a gun and they have one, is the police supposed to ignore that fact? I thought you were in favour of tough law enforcement?
The preferred outcome is the homeowner die in the noble cause of gun control.
"favour "
Learn to spell.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/favour
Learn to recognize that not everyone uses American spellings. And IIRC, Martinned is Dutch.
Humorous scold.
You mean humo[u]rless. God you're bad at this.
"While the spelling humour is preferred over humor in British English, humorous is standard in both American and British English, and humourous is nonstandard."
I'm ok with the spelling, personally. I reserve my disdain for people who pronounce "sch" the same as "sh".
The Spanish do that to my last name all the time.
It's British English. Think first, type later.
It's the "not supposed to have a gun" that gets stuck in the craw of most red-blooded Americans.
To many of us, the exceptions should be rare -- and if the gun is used in a context where innocent life is defended, it even angers us when the Prosecution still goes after someone for having a gun (eg, the person is a felon).
The hypo explicitly posited that it did not take place in the US.
And my comment is one commenting on the gun laws of other countries, and how they needlessly disarm people who shouldn't be disarmed.
There is no felony murder rule in any European country, as far as I am aware.
In Austria it's known as "constructive murder".
Ah, the argument from ignorance. It must be true because you personally have never looked into it.
The UK has joint enterprise murder, which as I understand it is similar but can cast a wider net since it doesn't require a felony predicate. I don't know about other European countries, but I'm very confident that you don't, either.
Joint criminal enterprise is the English law equivalent of conspiracy in the US. It's an entirely different concept.
And I apologise for only having direct knowledge of a handful of European countries' legal systems. I'll start brushing up on my Slovak right away, so that I can find out what they do in Slovakia.
Then explain: The German law
Mord, § 211, is used only if the case is especially severe, and is punished with life imprisonment
" ...whoever kills a human being out of murderous intent, to satisfy sexual desires, out of greed or otherwise base motives, insidiously or cruelly, or with means dangerous to the public, or in order to commit or cover up another crime..."
Yes, that's the dolus eventualis I mentioned in the first comment of the other thread.
"and in fact a pretty standard example that people use to explain why it is bonkers."
Which commonly fails in that use because it looks perfectly reasonable to a lot of people.
Fortunately I don't comment on the VC with the hope of actually convincing anyone.
Fortunately you don't.
Ohh Mr. Bumble, you so funny. Word!
Which takes us to the follow-up: There was a candlelight vigil for the deceased criminal, which was apparently shot up by other criminals, leading to another dead person. The culture of crime runs deep https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/17-year-old-killed-2-children-shot-at-candlelight-vigil-in-dekalb-county/85-3c6a5dc7-8dab-41db-923d-9d159a293d4e
"Funeral Shootings" are actually pretty common in Chicago. Street Coppers refer to 111th street, where there are multiple large cemeteries, as "The 7 Holy Tombs"" when a gang member's funeral is scheduled. Both "Drive Bys" and "Ambush" shootings by rival gangs are if not common, regular enough to require extra police presence.
Culture of crime is some racist shit. As though black people love criming and murder. Fuck off with that kind of dehumanization.
It's not a moral failing to have vigils for criminals; criminals are humans and have touched lives, and even experienced injustice.
Well, something is wrong with the culture when funeral shootings are a thing.
And before you reflexively scream 'racist', that's true whether the people doing it are black or white, Irish mob/Italian mob/Russian mob/Hatfields and McCoys/whatever.
How much of a thing are they, really?
Generalizing into a 'culture' is utterly unsupported.
Where do you think the culture of crime runs deep, if there was no race in that comment?
>How much of a thing are they, really?
Well, when I used to see the headlines in the local paper, what went through my head was 'Geez, another one'. And the local cops would lay on a lot of extra officers for the funerals, hoping to prevent them.
"Where do you think the culture of crime runs deep, if there was no race in that comment?"
Let me try once more: I don't care about the race/ethnicity/religion/sexual preferences/etc of murderers. And to spell it out, there are two components to that:
1)When, say, one mafiosi does a gangland hit, I don't say 'gee, those Italians are a bunch of crooks'.
2)When the Crips and Bloods have a shootout, I don't say 'gee, those blacks are a bunch of crooks' - *but* I also don't have to look the other way and pretend the Crips and Bloods are nice people.
For another example, outlaw motorcycle gangs are not nice people, even though they are mostly white (with a few Hispanics, depending on the gang). They have a violent culture.
1) So you don't generalize from anecdotes (and good on 'ya).
But taking this anecdote and going on about a culture of crime is OK, and isn't generalizing.
Outlaw motorcycle gangs have a pretty key word at the start of their name. But of course 'the culture of crime runs deep in those who shoot up funerals' doesn't really say much, does it?
You are defending generalization even though you seem to understand why it is a bad temptation to give into.
“You are defending generalization”
I am doing exactly the opposite.
Saying the Crips are bad isn’t saying all blacks are bad.
Saying the Hells Angels are bad isn’t saying all honkies are bad.
Saying Meyer Lansky was bad isn’t saying all Jews are bad.
I will admit to this generalization: if you make a habit of doing drivebys at funerals, you are bad.
“But of course ‘the culture of crime runs deep in those who shoot up funerals’ doesn’t really say much, does it? ”
It seems self explanatory to me. Shooting up funerals is bad. Those who do it are bad. I’m not sure why anyone would disagree. You say elsewhere "Plenty of fine folks attached to shitty people, and they can grieve as they want.". I agree. Even really bad people might have nice 7 year old nieces. That's why it's bad to do drivebys at funerals - you might hit the niece.
Nobody said anything about race, if you read "culture of crime" and thought "black" then you may wish to examine your own attitudes about race. The shooters and by extension their race is unknown, if you're saying the deceased criminal is black then I believe you, but I didn't know that until you said so.
And I don't think, bluntly, that the justification of the candlelight vigis really holds water. Jeffrey Dahmer was more than just his crimes and experienced injustice in the sense he was murdered in prison. Yet I'd look askance at anybody who held a candlelight vigil for him. Pretty much the same boat here, my sympathy is with the survivors, not the now-deceased predator.
No one said anything about race, but where is the culture of crime running deep, as you say? This is not a hard narrative to notice.
The culture among people holding a candlelight vigil for a deceased predator. That is deeply troubling and even moreso that an underage person was even in attendance, let alone murdered at such a thing.
Surely you can see, absent any racial consideration, that we are in trouble if vigils are for the predators instead of for the victims. Philosophers disagree whether killing a predator is morally praiseworthy or merely morally justifiable. A few pure pacifists might take the position we're required to capitulate to predators and allow them to murder us, but I’m aware of nobody seriously making the argument that crossing one off is an occasion for public mourning. And yet here we are.
You might read a book called 'Ghettoside', by Jill Leovy. She was a reporter that hung out with the LAPD homicide squad for a while. In one of the saddest moments in a sad book, she asked some young boys, like 11 or 12 years old, what they saw in their future. A common answer was 'join a gang and go to prison'. Because that was what they saw men do in their world. That's a culture of crime.
If you want to say they are helpless pawns being held down by honky society, I might partially agree with you. But denying there is a cultural problem there seems like being willfully blind. You can't fix what you won't acknowledge.
Ghettoside was excellent.
Another fascinating thing she talked about was how violent African-American society has been pretty much from its inception. A lot of it was the indifference/hostility of law enforcement, which required “private” justice in order for there to be any “justice” at all. Plus, law enforcement generally looked the other way at black-on-black violence, especially in the South, and did not even record it in the official statistics. During the Great Migration and then the migration to California in the 1940s, the people brought this culture with them.
ETA -- her discussion was very nuanced, so I am afraid I am not doing it justice with my summary.
You’re completely wrong – that’s a great summary ????
In suburbia today, if you have a beef with a neighbor – perhaps his dog defiles your lawn – you take it up with the HOA, or the cops, or call your lawyer. You don’t, under any circumstances, punch him in the face. A lot of suburbanites seem to assume that is the only possible culture, but it isn’t.
The 'honor culture' Leovy describes – where you don’t call the cops, but personally deal with the offender by punching him in the face or shooting him, as appropriate, is familiar to me – I grew up on the fringes (in time and space) of one in Appalachia.
Changing it requires a police/justice system that is effective enough that malefactors are actually held to account the majority of the time, and enough time for people to internalize that. It’s a tough chicken-n-egg problem – when the cops show up at a shooting, all too often nobody seen nuthin, because of the culture. But that means the cops can’t solve the murder, so the culture continues.
"It’s not a moral failing to have vigils for criminals"
In fact it is when they are killed during the commission of a crime. vigils are for the innocent
Oh so sad the criminal was killed. So sad.
Vigils are for the living. No one until you just now has ever said anything about vigils having to be for the 'innocent.' Who among us is actually innocent?
I know you think criminals are not like the rest of us, and are ontologically evil and thus all manner of things may be visited upon them.
You revel in your lack of empathy, and you, more than some petty robber, are a real study in how people can become monsters.
By comparison to this guy? I certainly am, and I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you and most of the rest of the other posters here are too.
Well for one thing, given the extensive amount of American life that is criminalized, it is highly unlikely that anyone who lives long enough dies innocent of committing any and all crimes at some point. So who counts as innocent?
Also I don't think Sarc is using innocent in the technically legal sense. Literally everyone is a sinner according to some existing religious framework. And everyone has done something immoral or unethical under some framework at some point.
Setting aside de minimis ethical/moral transgressions, there are probably a lot more people who while technically legally innocent have behaved monstrously towards others. Abusive bosses. Toxic spouses and friends. Emotionally manipulative parents, etc. You can destroy a family all while doing nothing illegal. Does that count as innocent? Who's to say that the guy who ran off with his mistress and abandoned his kids (but still paid child support), shouldn't get a vigil? Not me, and certainly not Bob from Ohio whose own morals are so terrible its remarkable he has the nerve to classify anything as a moral failing.
Is it a crime to use your employers equipment and time to be posting comments here?
On my phone. And not since Van Buren. Also you have more posts than me. So logs eyes etc.
Didn't realize you wre counting my posts, which are done on my own device and my own time.
You also seem to have changed your story since you said last week that youe employer was fine with you posting and you claimed you got your got your assigned work completed so it was
OK.
Typical government employee.
Lol what is this new troll? You realize that there are way more prolific posters. Also it’s not hard to do Ctrl+F.
And yes I’m typical in that I’m well educated and competent so I get things done accurately and efficiently without the need for wasteful billing.
Dissemble and obfuscate. Very good.
"Well for one thing, given the extensive amount of American life that is criminalized, it is highly unlikely that anyone who lives long enough dies innocent of committing any and all crimes at some point. So who counts as innocent?"
Not me obviously! Not only have I jaywalked with malice aforethought, but I have engaged in felonious gun violence - to wit, after my father's burial at Arlington I (inadvertently, not that that is a defense!) rode through D.C. with one of the expended cartridges[1]. That's at least as bad as doing a home invasion and planning to rape the women and kill all the witnesses.
#AllFeloniesAreEquallyBad
#WayToMissNoscitursPoint
[1]After the 21 gun salute, they hand out the fired blanks to anyone who wants them. The tradition is to put the blank in the triangular case with the folded flag. And my brother missed the turn and ended up headed across the bridge into D.C., thus putting ordered liberty itself in danger.
What does it mean to be “innocent” then? Such that only the “innocent” deserve family vigils. Noscitur claimed he was innocent. Innocent of what? This crime? Probably. A transgression that would make it so he’s not innocent enough for a vigil? Again who’s to say. Certainly not Bob, that’s for damn sure.
Precisely so! Jaywalking and serial killing are both crimes, and so morally equivalent!
#It'sWrongToJudge!
Who gets to decide it’s wrong to publicly grieve for a loved one at a vigil? You? Bob? Noscitur?
You meant your hashtag sarcastically but in this case it’s true: it is wrong to judge the living for grieving the dead. It’s a shitty thing to do.
To be clear, I expect that Al Capone's widow (if he was married??) grieved over his death. Eva Braun would have no doubt grieved over Adolph's death if she hadn't died with him. Plus he liked his dog.
But your comment above "Well for one thing, given the extensive amount of American life that is criminalized, it is highly unlikely that anyone who lives long enough dies innocent of committing any and all crimes at some point. So who counts as innocent?" isn't about family members grieving their dear departed criminal kin. It is suggesting that hey, we're all crooks, guilty of jaywalking or rape/murder or something, so we're all really peas in a pod. And that is why you're getting pushback: some people don't view rape/murder and jaywalking as equivalent.
You’re pushback is straw manning because I literally never suggested an equivalence. Bob was claiming that innocents don’t deserve vigils. Sarc said no one is totally innocent. Nos pointed out he was. I pointed out that there’s no way to know that. Or what innocence counts for vigils.
So you’re arguing against something I never said. Classic strawman.
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
Okay. So what’s the level of “innocence” required to grieve your lost loved one?
There are times when that is a complex, nuanced, difficult, and vexing question.
There are also times when it's very easy.
This is one of those times. Whatever the level of culpability might be, this guy is well past it. And whatever misdeeds I might be guilty of, I am a better person than he was.
You don't have any problem declaring yourself superior to commenters here who disagree with you, judge who issue rulings you dislike on policy grounds, and so on. Why is it so hard for you to say it here?
Because You keep arguing against a straw man dude.
I never claimed there was a moral equivalence between crimes or acts. Let’s follow the conversation:
Sarc says: “It’s not a moral failing to have vigils for criminals”
Bob says: “In fact it is when they are killed during the commission of a crime. vigils are for the innocent.”
Sarc says “Vigils are for the living. No one until you just now has ever said anything about vigils having to be for the ‘innocent.’ Who among us is actually innocent?”
You say: “By comparison to this guy? I certainly am, and I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you and most of the rest of the other posters here are too.”
Then I ask the question who counts as innocent based on that convo. I never made an equivocation. You just claimed you were “innocent.” But why? Says who? And what’s the line for innocence when so much is criminalized? You’re better than that guy? So what? Why do you think his family doesn’t deserve a vigil and yours does? That’s the question I’m getting at.
And by the way it’s easy to declare yourself better than people here because the bar is so freaking low. Half of the commenters openly advocate for violence and bigotry. Others simply have terrible ethics that are Randian justifications for selfishness, or are based around childish pre-conventional moral reasoning: “bad guy hurt therefore good.”
It’s like comparing the reading skills of an average high school freshman to kindergartners, except with moral reasoning.
I'm not making a comparison.
Plenty of fine folks attached to shitty people, and they can grieve as they want.
And I'm also not comfortable setting a bright line beyond which you are bad and vigils are not for you.
Oh, I lack empathy for criminals. You got me. Guilty.
No. You lack empathy for people. The people at the vigil needed the empathy. Not the criminal. Yet here you are saying it was a moral failing to mourn someone they cared about. So who is the sanctimonious moral scold now, eh?
It's one thing to have a candlelight vigil for a monster who jumped into a river and died trying to rescue a drowning child. I could live with that.
It's another thing entirely to have a vigil for someone who died failing to rob, rape, and murder a family.
One is celebrating a hero despite being a monster. One is celebrating a monster.
Context is everything.
Yeah, it is sad for his family, friends, and community dumbass. If you cared for someone who was killed of course you'd go to a vigil, even if they did bad things, even if their bad things caused their death. That's just human nature. Caring about people.
"sad for his ... community"
Unlikely. A dead predator helps the community.
You don't know anything about his community or how they cared about this person.
And I notice you had to ignore the fact of family and friends to justify your position. Maybe you oughta rethink this one?
"You don’t know anything about his community"
All communities benefit from the killing of thugs who use armed force to invade a home, rob, then try to rape women before killing all the occupants.
Wow. Never thought I’d see you go this hard against members of our police and military.
But again. Ignoring the grief of friends and family.
The friends of the dead thug are hardly worth discussing.
Family benefits too from his death in the long run.
Dude. You’re just a bad person. Like it’s indisputable. No empathy for the grieving.
“Family benefits too from his death in the long run.”
You’d never dare say this if it was your family member.
"You’d never dare say this if it was your family member."
You assume too much. There are crimes so heinous that I'd be willing to pull the trigger on his execution, if my brother were obviously guilty of such a crime.
I discovered that about myself several years ago, when I learned that someone I considered a friend had arranged for the murder of his wife, who I also consider a friend. I was disappointed he only got "Life Imprisonment".
Although rare, every so often I see someone make a comment from someone else who gets it, too: "I really wish my nephew didn't get shot, but what did he expect would happen in breaking into someone else's home?"
I guess you never heard of the Cosa Nostra, Camorra or, 'Ndrangheta
First of all, the felony-murder rule is awesome, and applying to accomplices is even more awesome. It: (1) incentivizes deterrence among the accomplices--as in "Hey man, don't kill them, I don't want a murder charge." (2) when you commit a serious crime, the felony-murder rule incentivizes you to take active measures to ensure that there are no deaths involved, and (3) it provides justice to victims.
Where an accomplice dies, there really isn't any reason not to have the felony-murder rule kick in.
Ah yeah, the subtle understanding of criminal law we all know people generally have.
Justice to victims? More like retribution. You haven't asked the victims, you're declaring on their behalf what justice looks like. And it looks like more harsh penalties.
Because for some, that's all they see. Criminals are a different species or something.
"Criminals are a different species or something."
People who are counting bullets to make sure they can kill all their soon-to-be rape victims may not be a biologically different species, but they are very different from me and I hope you.
Jesus Christ, Absaroka. Yes, there are evil people. But that set is way smaller than criminals.
You refer to a pretty rare group, hardly what we're talking about here, and not the group we should be tailoring our system to.
"hardly what we’re talking about here"
We are literally talking here about "People who are counting bullets to make sure they can kill all their soon-to-be rape victims".
Good grief, Sarcastr0, go back and read the OP.
"heard [Hill] and Lavant discussing condoms and the number of bullets in their guns"
Hill didn't intend to hurt anyone. Nope, total injustice to charge him with murder.
Sorry, yes.
I was tracking the discussion one thread above, which had moved well beyond the OP.
My bad.
But I still hold to the point that making policies based on the worst of us will make you end up with harsh and bad policies.
"But I still hold to the point that making policies based on the worst of us will make you end up with harsh and bad policies."
And making policies based on the best of us will also result in bad policies. It's almost like the punishment should fit the crime ... lenient penalties for minor crimes and the salvageable, harsh penalties for serious crimes and the incorrigible.
I think I stated the justifications pretty well--there's also the fact that it allows the prosecution to dispense with worrying about the criminals pointing out who actually pulled the trigger.
Anything that makes prosecution easier, eh?
Again, you're confusing conspiracy with felony murder.
retribution is justice
Global terrorism agrees.
"Justice to victims? More like retribution. You haven’t asked the victims, you’re declaring on their behalf what justice looks like. And it looks like more harsh penalties."
Justice and retribution are not opposites. And society benefits when those in the home invasion business are incarcerated, regardless of the motivation.
You've made the claim that the felony murder rule is not a deterrent. We know this how? Since the advent of MADD and the severe increases in the penalties for drunk driving, associated deaths are down by 2/3. Coincidence?
The incentive is once anybody dies you kill all the witnesses because 8 billion felony murders put you away for life the same as one.
Except criminals are not thinking about the broad form of the felony murder rule during crimes. It only adds a bit of randomness to the punishment they aren't expecting to suffer in the first place. A burglar has some control over whether he runs over a bystander while driving the getaway car (which could be felony murder under a narrow version). He has no control over whether the homeowner hits the target.
Your point is valid--the movie Heat provides a stark hypo. But I think it's "swamped" by the other policy drivers behind the felony murder rule. Criminals kill witnesses all the time.
Judging from your posts, you sure seem happy to embrace the criminals' perspective.
Yes, a lot of criminals are pure idiots and nothing is going to provide any disincentive to them to committing crimes. Other criminals are more savvy and know what at least the relevant laws are. You've never heard of a criminal not carrying a gun because he doesn't want the enhancement? Because I have. I've heard it from their own mouths. If there's a law and it's actually enforced regularly, the criminals who make a habit of committing related crimes WILL hear about it and might just alter their behavior because of it.
Furthermore, I have a lot of sympathy for concerns about "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" when the law in question involves whether or not you are transporting lobster in a cardboard box.
I have a lot less sympathy for concerns about "ignorance of the law is no excuse" when the so-called "randomness" injected into the system is the result of something that is obviously wrong -- such as, for example, arson being felony murder even if you didn't know anyone was inside the building, or being charged for felony murder because you were the driver for a getaway car for a home invasion.
Yes, we're over-regulated, and it's impossible for all of us to know all of the laws, let alone to keep them -- but those are, more or less, harmless regulations. Forceable Felony law is pretty standard, though, and not at all hard to understand.
Well put on all points.
The felony murder rule is sort of difficult to justify as a theory of punishment.
Retribution is out because intent to kill is not present. Therefore, there is no proportionality to the offense actually committed. Punishment without moral culpability serves no purpose under this rationale.
There is no rehabilitative purpose to longer punishment (even death!) under this particular rule. A person who committed a felony where someone is killed doesn't need more rehabilitative incarceration than someone who commits the same felony where no one is killed.
So that leaves deterrence. This is likely the policy rationale behind the rule. But it is not easy to identify what actually is being deterred. If it's just don't commit crime/don't commit felonies, then there would be no reason to have different punishments for different offense levels. All felonies could carry automatic 20 years. It could theoretically deter specific violent felonies like this, but the rule isn't necessarily so limited. And there are always tons of additional ways to stack charges or add firearms and brandishing specifications, etc. for this situation.
How are you supposed to deter someone from doing (?) something they didn't intend in the first place?
Seems like the only thing they didn't intend is for one of them to be shot. Counting bullets seems they planned to murder at least some of their victims.
Knowing that a home invasion could result in a death penalty case sure seems like a deterrent to me.
So does putting the death penalty on jaywalking
It is far less important to deter jaywalking, though, than it is to deter home invasion.
They both brought guns, they both knew the other was armed. What do you think their intent was?
They talked about killing their victims. They counted how many bullets they had. What do you think their intent was?
Oh wait, I get it -- their intent was to kill their victims, not each other. So that's all good then -- their deaths were not planned, so felony murder charges were inappropriate.
Yes. Glad to see you're making progress. If the criminals had actually killed someone, convicting them for murder would have made sense.
If you invade a home intent on murder, and you are convicted of murder because the potential victim shot your accomplice, I fail to see the problem -- even if the potential murderer didn't realize this was a possibility.
Killing someone -- even in pure self defense -- is no light matter. Just being put in danger is sufficient to cause significant psychological damage, even if the person's conscience is clear from the killing itself (which isn't always the case) -- why shouldn't a home invader be held responsible for putting people at risk of this, even if the result wasn't a death of the innocent, but one of the accomplices?
I would ask further -- to the degree we value the lives of the people who are killed, why shouldn't the intent of the people putting the ones killed into the situation they were in, be transferred to the death of the individuals? If the death of a murderer attempting murder warrants a candlelight vigil, as some people here have suggested, then surely justice for the death of the individual ought to be sought.
Everyone who caries guns intends to use them that day.
That would make for some pretty different gun control policies!
If you say you cannot distinguish the difference between intending to commit a crime, and intending to protect yourself from criminals ...
... you are lying.
Right. So they're guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. They're also guilty of burglary, either kidnapping or false imprisonment, conspiracy to commit rape... Easily enough that they aren't getting out. Is that somehow not good enough?
The OP scenario still works if the criminals didn't bring guns. Bringing guns is neither necessary nor sufficient to get convicted of felony murder under some US states' law.
And if you burgle a home, with a predictable chance of encountering an armed occupant, then you are still expecting the possibility of death.
I expect the possibility of death every day
Sigh...
You're ignoring situational probabilities. Your "possibility of death" from day-to-day living is significantly lower than your "possibility of death" when you're invading a home of random people, some of whom could be armed.
And, frankly, if the "possibility of death" for home invaders isn't significantly higher than day-to-day living in your country, there's something seriously wrong with your country.
And, frankly, if the “possibility of death” for home invaders isn’t significantly higher than day-to-day living in your country, there’s something seriously wrong with your country.
No. That means there is something seriously right. But I can see how you would struggle to understand that if you grow up in a country that is in the grip of a low-level civil war.
So you're saying that it should be perfectly safe for anyone to walk into any home at any time, and that the occupants of the home should welcome them? "Oh, Mr. Invader Sir, my wife is in the bedroom, and if you want to stab my children, the knives are in the kitchen drawer to the left of the fridge. Why don't I make you a cup of tea and some crumpets while you're here, Mr. Invader Sir?"
If this kind of thing is normal in your country, rather than one in the grip of a civil war of any type, your country deserves the fate of Carthage.
Well that's the problem. What are you deterring with the felony murder rule that isn't covered by punishments for the underlying felonies? Robbery is treated different than a burglary or a larceny precisely because one uses physical force to accomplish the goal.
The killing.
How? The punishment for purposeful murder was supposed to deter the killer. It did not in this case. The killing would have happened with or without the felony murder rule.
Yes, by definition, every time a crime occurs the law was inadequate to deter it.
Punishing criminals more when someone is foreseeably killed during their commission is an incentive not to participate in a crime that could foreseeably result in someone being killed.
That’s already accomplished by making armed robbery a crime with brandishing specifications.
Kind of begging the question here, aren’t you? I’d say that if you choose to commit a serious crime, it’s foreseeable that someone could get killed, you do it anyway, and someone does in fact get killed, you are in fact more deserving of punishment, even if the dead person is also a criminal.
To be a legitimate form of retributive punishment, the act needs to meet the mental state. In felony murder, there is no act and there is no associated mental state for some people who are charged beyond the one that they would already be punished for: armed robbery (with firearm specs for instance).
The Model Penal Code has already dealt with your issue by creating a rebuttable presumption of extreme-recklessness, a type of murder, for killings that occur during certain felonies:
The comment states:
“Section 210.2(1)(b) establishes a presumption that the requisite recklessness and indifference to the value of human life exist when a homicide is committed during the course of certain enumerated felonies. This presumption has the effect of abandoning the strict liability aspects of the traditional felony-murder doctrine but at the same time recognizing the probative significance of the concurrence of homicide and a violent felony.”
So it’s actually trying to get at the mental state problem, but not trying to do strict liability which doesn’t have a retributive purpose.
More deserving of punishment? OK, but more than *what*? Because under Georgia law, if I intentionally empty three clips at you but happen to miss anything vital, that's punished less harshly than if someone bystander shoots my accomplice. I'm sorry, but that's not right.
It's not like we think the death means nothing. It just shouldn't be *murder*. This is exactly why we have manslaughter laws.
But if we're going to do away with "transfer of intent", we couldn't even charge the accomplice with "manslaughter".
I, for one, am comfortable with the notion "If you go down a path where murder is an intention, and people die because of the path you traveled (assuming you don't turn away from it), then yes, you should be held to be a murderer because people die from your actions".
I say I am comfortable, but it's more than that: I think this is just -- and I think it's more just than letting criminals off the hook because a potential victim killed an accomplice. They created the circumstance where someone could very well die -- and where a potential victim realized they needed to use lethal force to defend their life -- so they should bear full responsibility for those circumstances.
I mean, *this* particular case does not present a huge injustice, since they did in fact intend murder. But this is not the typical use of the felony murder rule. You can have a transferred intent rule without having felony murder, anyway.
I really don't see the problem with automatically assuming that when someone is committing a forceable felony -- basically, a felony where deadly force is, at a minimum, implied, if not outright threatened -- that murder was the intention.
Indeed, it is this very assumption that almost automatically gives a homeowner to respond immediately to a break-in with deadly force, without even pausing to determine if the person breaking in is armed or not. I don't particularly lose sleep over a burglar breaking into a house "only" intending to steal things, because by merely breaking into a house (even one assumed to be occupied), they are implicitly threatening the people in that house with violence.
I would not support an attempted murder charge for every violent felony. That's ridiculous.
On the one hand, I'm not entirely sure why this is as ridiculous as you think it is. The threat of lethal force is, at its core, a threat to murder someone.
On the other hand, it may have already been done in many States: I have noticed that many States have stopped charging people with "attempted murder", and just replaced it with "aggravated assault". Apparently they decided to just prosecute people for using, or at least attempting to use, violence against other people, and just assume that it's an assault, rather than try to figure out whether or not it's actually attempted murder.
A threat to murder someone is not an attempt to murder someone.
Don't home invade, then you have no risk of being charged with murder.
Can I state it simply!
Home invaders have zero rights.
You are acting illegally and courting your death or someone else's. NO RIGHTS
Agreed. It must be one of the most frightening crimes to be the victim of.
No, you can't torture a home invader. No, you can't set up traps to kill them.
No rights is some populist authoritarian emotionalism.
Crap, I hate when you are right
Agreed, but home invasion by police is a much harder case. Even police with search warrants do not always identify themselves, or may be misbelieved. A homeowner who kills police invading his house will have a tough time using the stand your ground defense.
Often because in such cases the police see to it they don't survive long enough to ever see a court.
No one is saying home invaders shouldn't get prosecuted. The issue is whether you can prosecute them for murder when one of them is shot by the homeowner.
So under your "no rights" scenario could you bind, torture, and rape a home invader and then keep them trapped in your basement for decades?
It's a peculiar result of this rule that if Hill had actually pulled the trigger he would be able to use the same "defense of habitation" justification that is presumably available to Barner. In other words, he isn't simply at risk of a guilty verdict in spite of not being the shooter, but because he is not the shooter.
Why, yes, things would be legally different if, instead of having been part of a criminal gang's rape and murder plan gone wrong, he'd had a moment of moral clarity and defended their victims against his fellow perpetrators. Are you saying this shouldn't make a difference?
I said nothing about moral clarity. You would reach the same result if Hill were an avid VC reader and, seeing that Barner was about to shoot Lavant, quickly calculated that his best option was to shoot him first.
They have to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, right? "Might" isn't good enough.
First, overruling a precedent like this should not be done unless the first ruling was clearly erroneous. If the legislature doesn't like the precedent they can clarify the law.
Second, I know the Supreme Court says otherwise, but this amounts to an unconstitutional ex post facto law. A particular act was legally *not murder* and then, retroactively, it *was*. The law was just "passed" by the judiciary instead of the legislature.
Third, even if the court *can* legally make this retroactive, they *shouldn't*. The Constitution explicitly bans both the federal government and states from making ex post facto laws for good reason, and just because there's a loophole doesn't mean the court should use it.
What a strangely long explanation for a simple concept: If someone who would otherwise still be alive dies as a result of your felonious behavior then you are guilty of murder.
The confusion isn't about how the rule works, but about the theory of law/justice that would make it not completely bonkers.
I think it's completely bonkers that this isn't a universal rule.