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The Triumph of Respecting Marriage and Religious Liberty
With the votes of 12 Republicans and all Democrats, the Senate sets up the end of DOMA.
For those of us over forty, the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which preemptively barred federal recognition and benefits for married gay couples, seemed here to stay. It was adopted by nearly unanimous congressional majorities and signed by Bill Clinton in the heat of a presidential election year, even though there would be no such marriages for eight years. But more importantly it reflected the views of at least two-thirds of all Americans at the time. Even after the Supreme Court's decision in Obergefell, repealing DOMA was very low on the list of priorities for most LGBT-rights groups and at any rate surely could not get enough support to end a filibuster by Republicans in the Senate.
But today the Senate voted to close debate on the Respect for Marriage Act (RMA) (text here), repealing DOMA and requiring states to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states. I previously discussed the substantive provisions of the RMA here (my co-blogger Ilya recently discussed them here), and won't elaborate further. The Senate must still vote to approve the bill. The amended version will then have to pass in the House, where a large majority (including 47 Republicans) already backed it.
The last time I wrote about RMA, I noted that the bill did not exclude the protection of individual religious freedom under the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). That was notable because the centerpiece LGBT-rights legislation pending in Congress, the Equality Act (which is comatose), specifically excludes RFRA's religious protections.
Since July, a bipartisan group of Senators (led by Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) and Susan Collins (R-ME)) not only preserved RFRA, but worked with others to craft additional language assuaging the concerns of churches and religious charitable organizations that the bill might require them to provide services and goods to married gay couples. It also now provides that such groups won't lose their tax-exempt status as a result of the new law. It was always very unlikely that the bill would be interpreted to have such effects because its provisions apply only to "those acting under color of state law" (generally, government officials).
But as anyone who's worked on legislation can tell you, the other side doesn't always trust that courts will interpret language in the way it should be interpreted. (Sometimes, they're right about that.) Their fears may seem exaggerated but you often learn they are genuine, and if you really don't have the intention of producing or risking the result the other side fears (e.g., losing tax exemptions, requiring goods and services), and if you can address them with minimal harm to the substance of the bill, then it's both right and maybe politically necessary to do so. That's the spirit in which the Senators and their staffs negotiated the terms of a bill that will give a measure of reassurance in federal law to hundreds of thousands of married gay couples and to the millions of children gay people are raising.
This is an important step by many theologically conservative groups, which either supported the bill (like the LDS Church) or at least didn't object to it (like the Seventh-Day Adventists and the Orthodox Jewish Union). Prominent religious-liberty scholars like Doug Laycock, Tom Berg, and Robin Wilson supported it. You can also add the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities and the National Association of Evangelicals (see here). Of course, some advocacy groups will continue to oppose any legal recognition of same-sex marriage, regardless of religious protections (see here and here).
Perhaps just as importantly, this is a potentially important step for Democrats--all of whom voted for the bill. For the first time in the context of LGBT-rights legislation, progressive Democrats in Congress have voted: (1) to allow RFRA protections for people of faith (that's the effect of not explicitly carving out RFRA, as I explained in July); (2) to codify religious-liberty protections for social service organizations in providing goods and services; (3) to protect religious groups from losing their tax exemptions; and (4) to make the following finding, cribbing from Obergefell:
Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.
Can that same spirit of mutual respect and accomodation animate future discussions of LGBT policy issues?
It's going to be a lot tougher to pass comprehensive anti-discrimination legislation like the Equality Act or the Fairness for All Act. There are much more significant trade-offs involved for both Democrats and Republicans, and for both LGBT-rights supporters and religious conservatives, in bills that address housing, public accommodations, and federal funding. But even if the RMA isn't an unshakeable precedent, it's at least an important first step.
And it's the end of the road for a law that was preemptively cruel and reflects a view about "defending" marriage that 70% of Americans no longer support.
CORRECTION: I have been informed that my original post incorrectly stated the Seventh-Day Adventist Church supports the RMA. In fact, the Seventh-Day Adventists support the religious liberty provisions in the RMA but neither support nor oppose the RMA as a whole. I have edited the post to reflect the correction.)
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I think there are some RINOS needing to be primaried.
I can guess as to who the 12 Senate RINOs are, and losing any of them would not be a bad thing...
Ed, you’re so much like a progressive it’s astounding. Right down to the uncontrollable urge to punish wrongthink.
So it’s your position that Republicans are opposed to liberty?
Oh no! Persuasion and debate led to changes in laws using.. legislators?
Wth!
No peeking. Who do you think they are?
I think Dr Ed does not know what the word "RINO" means.
Let's hope it fails in the House.
Uh, the House has already passed its version. Any differences in the House and Senate versions of the bill will be reconciled in a conference committee, and the bill will go to the White House for President Biden's signature before Congress adjourns.
“repealing DOMA and requiring states to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states.”
Ah, not exactly. The operative language is this:
“‘(a) IN GENERAL.—No person acting under color of State law may deny— (1)full faith and credit to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State pertaining to a marriage between 2 individuals, on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals; or (2) a right or claim arising from such a marriage on the basis that such marriage would not be recognized under the law of that State on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals.”
OK so far. But then we come to
“‘§ 7. Marriage (a) For the purposes of any Federal law, rule, or regulation in which marital status is a factor, an individual shall be considered married if that individual’s marriage is between 2 individuals and is valid in the State where the marriage was entered into or, in the case of a marriage entered into outside any State, if the marriage is between 2 individuals and is valid in the place where entered into and the marriage could have been entered into in a State.”
As it happens, a fair number of states have no age restriction whatsoever on any marriage a judge is willing to approve. They simply rely on the judges being reasonable.
As it also happens, a fair number of countries (Rather culturally different from the US.) also approach things in the same way, having no formal age limit on marriages approved of by judges. And so, by the terms of this law, any marriage entered into in those countries would have to be considered valid for purposes of federal law.
It occurs to me that those countries’ judges may just have a slightly different idea of what is reasonable than US judges… I wonder if they really thought this through?
8 states have no official age minimum for marriage but they do have additional hurdles for those under the age of 18, to include parental consent and a judicial review meant to avoid the risk of abuse or coercion. Presumably, a foreign marriage would still have to qualify if one or both members of the couple are minors according to US law. But given that this sort of thing hasn’t been a noteworthy problem in the US for the many decades this has existed, I don’t see why adding same-sex couples to the party will change anything.
Unless, that is, you’re implying some unique relationship between homosexuals and children? Are you equally concerned about states that marry first cousins? (19 states allow.)
In the last twenty years, I've seen multiple attempts in various states up their minimum age to marry.
Do you know who is most vocal about defending no/low limits, every time? Evangelical Christians.
So, uh, plank in your own eye and all that jazz. Don't blame queers for straight people being groomers.
Meanwhile, those most vocal about removing or lowering age of consent laws are homosexuals.
Naturally it's the homosexuals.
Are you sure it's not the libertarians?
How did you jump from states to countries?
Because the standard for recognition of a foreign marriage is whether it "could have been entered into in a State.”
By reading the bill?
States are required to respect any marriage entered into in another state, but the federal government any marriage that could have been entered into under the laws of any state, and was legally entered into where it was performed.
I was just observing that some of the states rely on the judgement of judges, having no formal limit otherwise. But this provision opens the door to the federal government having to respect marriages approved by judges operating under different cultural standards.
I wonder what happens when somebody comes to the US with a marriage the federal government is legally obligated to respect, but which no state is?
Aside from the way your use of "cultural standards" makes my skin crawl...
If it has to be legal in a State then that would, I presume, require that a judge in one of those states would have to review the marriage and determine that it is legal. If you assume venue shopping for such things, if any one state says "yes" then, it's legal. And that's how it works now for couples getting married anywhere in the US and its territories. I imagine (but now I'm definitely guessing) that we tend to treat married, foreign tourists as legitimately married for their short stay here as well.
"Aside from the way your use of “cultural standards” makes my skin crawl…"
That's your problem.
"If it has to be legal in a State then that would, I presume, require that a judge in one of those states would have to review the marriage and determine that it is legal."
Not what the law says.
If it's legal in one state, it's legal in all. Yes. The legality in states without a statutory minimum age is dependent upon judicial approval or other requirements. A foreign marriage that would require such an approval but does not have one would, at least textually, not meet the requirement.
A foreign marriage that would require such approval would have the approval from a foreign judge, is my point.
The judicial approval laws tacitly assume the judges are applying American cultural standards. But when judges approve under-aged marriage in other countries, they're using the local cultural standards, not American.
It's a loophole that can force federal recognition of foreign marriages that would never, as a practical matter, ever have been permitted here, though they technically meet the letter of the law.
We are both making an assumption here about how a judge-approved marriage would be handled in such a situation. My best guess is that the first time it comes up, it will have to be litigated.
Your continued use of "American cultural standards" echos of tiki torches and angry chanting.
So you were making a roundabout argument that this could nationalize child marriage?
I don't think that'll happen.
Well, yeah. Obviously. Now give me a reason why it wouldn't happen. It appears to be driven by the plain text of the law.
Because we don't much like child marriage in the US.
Your objection needs evidence of an actual factual problem. Insisting a law fix ever hypothetical problem you can come up with is just a good way to attack a law you don't like but don't want to explain the real reason why.
And most Americans didn't like same-sex "marriage" either. Not until the courts, intelligentsia, and media forced it on them.
It wouldn't happen because it hasn't happened. But suddenly, when LGBT marriages are added to the mix, it's a concern?
God is not mocked. This law, when enacted, will further corrupt our republic, and will lead to multi-partner and bestial "marriages." Secular progressives behave as if the universe were not ordered by our Creator, but they will be sad to learn that their opinions are worthless when they face the Eternal Judge.
How?
Bestial marriages is silly.
Multi-partner maybe should be legal. The Bible is fine with it.
While I think multi-partner marriages are a social nightmare, I'm hard pressed to make a good legal case against them. What the US government did with the Mormon church was about as clear cut a 1st amendment violation as it gets.
Wasn't these same arguments deployed about ending slavery? Or letting women vote?
You can't just declare that you know the mind of God better than everyone else and start making demands.
Well, you can, but no one will listen to you much.
And letting women vote has turned us into a liberal, socialist society. So it seems that the people who made those arguments were right.
Ending slavery was the right decision, but not repatriating the freed slaves was the wrong one.
What the heck is wrong with multi-partner marriage?
Shhhh ... we were assured only bigots would think plural "marriage" after gay "marriage" was created .... new talking points? Lies out of the closet????
Uh, no "we" weren't.
We were told the two things are different and plural marriage would have to do its own legwork and make its own case. There is nothing inherently wrong with plural marriages given that plural sexual relationships have been a thing as long as humans have existed.
Also, shouldn't the RFRA be a good defense of religiously based plural marriages?
The government has a compelling interest in preventing polygamous marriages. It is not a stable equilibrium for society. Polygamy is only an adaptive trait in a place where there is a heavy female to male ratio; otherwise, those societies have to artificially create such a ratio, either by expelling 'excess' unattached young men (which happens in the fundamentalist mormon communities that still practice it) or by engaging in wars to thin out the young male population. (And/or increase the female population through capture.)
Without disagreeing with your compelling interest argument, the government also had one for same sex marriage. A number of social norms changed and a long-term public relations battle ensued that convinced American voters that the governments’ compelling interest arguments were no longer compelling. That could, potentially, happen for plural marriages as well. I leave that up to people with more of a stake in that than I have to lead the charge. But as someone whose same sex relationship went from a felony in the 1990s to being legally married for several years in 2022, I am evidence that things can change.
As a practical matter?
You're almost always talking one guy, multiple women, and since the human sex ratio is near 1-1, if this becomes at all common, it implies that a lot of men have no chance at all of being married, as women tend to end up sharing the more desirable men.
Historically, this has all sorts of negative social consequences.
This assumes these relationship would become common. The thing is, it's already legal to enter these relationships and some Americans choose to do so; they just cannot get married. The lack of marriage isn't what likely prevents more of them from forming, though social attitudes may keep most of them discrete. These types of relationships can get messy and don't often last very long. Even in LGBT culture, where there is less of a taboo about such things, successful polygamous relationships are uncommon.
Given that, your argument reminds me of an oft-repeated reason for why same-sex marriages would ruin the world--if everyone did it there would be no children. "If" is carrying a lot of weight in both circumstances.
To those poor souls that cannot find a mate (InCels), the reason isn't because some hotter guy is out there cock-blocking you.
Religious nutjob muted.
God is mocked all the time. HTH.
"This law, when enacted, will further corrupt our republic, and will lead to multi-partner and bestial 'marriages.'”
Wrong. The bill by its own terms is expressly limited to "a marriage between 2 individuals". https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8404/text
In a great Australian show, "Rake", the story of a barrister with multiple issues but a keen legal mind, he defends a man charged with bigamy by pointing out that if he had just set up homes with the four women he married after his first marriage and not chosen to enter into a marriage with them, he would have been considered either a great lover or a jerk but would not have been charged with any crime. He got the jury to buy that defense.
“if you really don’t have the intention of producing or risking the result the other side fears (e.g., losing tax exemptions, requiring goods and services), and if you can address them with minimal harm to the substance of the bill, then it’s both right and maybe politically necessary to do so.”
But my dear professor, the bill *doesn’t* alleviate the concerns about “requiring goods and services.” The only *specific* provisions on this subject are for “nonprofit religious organizations.” We all know that for-profit small businesses have been subject to laws “requiring goods and services.” So why not make provision for these for-profit businesses? Why not say that “no person or organization” shall be required to provide goods and services for a same-sex wedding ceremony?
If you have a specific provision to protect religious nonprofits, that’s hardly reassuring to those operating for profit – especially since the whole country is aware of the cases involving for-profit bakers, florists, etc.
You’re leaving the rights of these for-profit small businesses at the mercy of litigation where they will be given the concession of invoking RFRA (whose meaning in this context remains unclear) – we could well be talking about protracted litigation which will prove very expensive to the victims even if they “win.”
This is hardly the way to go about dealing with the “fears” of the “other side.”
This was to protect churches and religious schools not for-profit businesses subject to public accommodation laws.
Bingo - so the makers of this bill *do* want to "requir[e] goods and services."
And, they accepted a compromise to exempt some providers. Isn't that how bipartisan legislation is supposed to work?
Then the good professor should avow that in one key respect he does in fact have “the intention of producing or risking the result the other side fears” – namely, compelling small businesses to cater gay weddings. His irenic rhetoric is, I’m sorry to say, going to produce the wrong impression if he is actually seeking one significant “result the other side fears.”
Also, the sponsors of the bill should admit they were only kidding when they wrote:
“Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.”
The bill’s sponsors want to dictate to small businesses on behalf of one particular vision of “the role of gender in marriage.” It adds insult to injury to claim that the people whom they are screwing over are acting on “decent and honorable…premises” and that their “beliefs are due proper respect.”
We all know that’s eyewash.
The actions of the bill's sponsors speak so loudly it's impossible to hear their protestations of respect for their opponents.
Without this bill, there is no protection for any providers. So, how can it be that this bill's intent is to force providers to service gay weddings?
Without this bill there's the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (at the federal level and in many states). Prof. Carpenter proudly boasts that his bill would "preserve[] RFRA." In other words, he thinks the bill's sponsors should get credit for not repealing pre-existing protections.
Protections which, however, boil down to the right of engaging in expensive litigation even if you "win."
So maybe you're right in the sense that RFRA will for many businesses prove illusory.
Of course, if you're a large religious nonprofit corporation you'd be sitting pretty under this bill - you keep your tax exemption, and can't be sued, if you uphold man/woman marriage.
Somehow, when the music stops, the large corporations tend to end up OK.
You keep missing the point that this bill need have nothing to do with anti-discrimination law. The compromise added protection from anti-discrimination law. And yet, you demand more!
I’ll confine myself to saying the professor oversells it. He tells us about the importance of conciliating the “other side,” the bill effusively praises the honor and sincerity of those who don’t agree with same-sex marriage, yet the “other side” remains un-conciliated on what both sides know is a key point – the rights of small businesses.
There’s a certain corporate favoritism in the bill – in favor of nonprofit religious corporations. For-profit small businesses have the right to invoke RFRA with no guarantee of the result, except that they’ll have to pay a bunch of legal fees. That part, I think, *will* be guaranteed.
The 12 Republicans who accepted this “compromise” are cheap dates. So long as corporations get theirs, Republicans are satisfied.
the “other side” remains un-conciliated on what both sides know is a key point – the rights of small businesses.
This doesn't sound like you understand how compromise works.
I’m fully aware that Congressional “compromise” tends to mean favors for large corporations and maybe a few crumbs tossed in the direction of small businesses.
In that sense there’s nothing unusual about it.
Setting everything else wrong with your position — the factual underpinnings, the logic, the (as noted) inability on your part to understand the concept of compromise — framing this in terms of "corporations" is loony.
The divide in the bill (which you overstate anyway) isn't between corporations and sole proprietorships, or between big corporations and small corporations. The line it draws is between religious organizations and commercial ones. Virtually all "corporations" are going to fall on the "wrong" (from your perspective) side of the line.
The bill protects large religious corporations. Do they protect a few other religious institutions? Sure they do. But they don't have express and unambiguous protection for those organizations of particular concern to those "honorable" dissenters on the "other side" whom the bill is supposedly trying to conciliate, namely, small businesses. The commenter on this very post make clear the alternatives they want to offer to such businesses - "if you want to follow your conscience, find another line of work!"
This from supposed supporters of a bill whose text, and whose supporters, profess so much respect for dissenters.
No, it protects all religious corporations. It says nothing whatsoever about their size.
(Also, “protects” isn’t exactly the right word. The bill confirms that those organizations are protected by the 1A.)
Intentionally conflating non-profit religious organizations (like churches and schools) with for-profit, commercial corporations run by people with religious beliefs isn't winning your argument.
"I object to this gay marriage law because it is too friendly towards churches" is certainly a take.
No, I object because it puts the jackboot on the neck of small businesses.
"But we exempt the churches!" How nice.
So do you think small businesses shouldn't be "jackbooted" by any laws at all, or just this one? Can an Uber driver drive 90 miles an hour through a school zone to get me to the airport on time? Can a greengrocer sell me 12 ounces of produce and tell me its a pound? Can a tattoo parlor tattoo a six year old's face without parental consent? And don't think those businesses couldn't come up with religious arguments to justify their conduct.
If you go into business, you are required to comply with laws that apply to your business, whether you agree with them or not.
” Can an Uber driver drive 90 miles an hour through a school zone” blah blah.
Would you require a business owner to recite the Communist Manifesto every day or else face closure? Ah, but that’s a silly example with only a tenuous connection to the subject under discussion.
So to return to the topic of violating the religious freedom of small business owners:
We’ve gone quite a distance from the title of this post – “The Triumph of Respecting Marriage and Religious Liberty.” We’ve seen how the law doesn’t actually respect religious liberty.
Of course, you aren't interested in the concerns of the "other side," but the author of this post says he is, and wants us to think that those concerns are addressed by the bill. You seem to recognize that those concerns aren't addressed.
The subject bill puts the jackboot on the neck of small businesses?
What does requiring one state's recognition of a marriage entered into in another state have to do with small businesses?
The bill has a clause exempting religious nonprofits in specific terms while relegating small businesses to the mercies of litigation where maybe they'd be able to invoke RFRA, which might or might not help them, and in any case RFRA won't pay their legal bills.
The bill protects religious nonprofits but not small businesses. That's a legislative choice.
Actually, if I were a policy maker, I would be fine with living in a world in which gay people can get married and no one is required to bake them a cake. They are separate issues and one is not dependent on the other for an answer.
The problem with your position, though, is that you're trying to use religion as a defense to laws that everybody else has to follow, which is why my examples were apt. Where exactly are you proposing to draw that line? If my religion says I should cheat people who aren't part of my religion (and I am familiar with at least one religion that teaches that), then who is the state to jackboot me into using honest weights and measures when an unbeliever comes into my store? What about my religious freedom? And your position would be far more persuasive if you could articulate a principled rationale for why businesses can't engage in religious cheating but can discriminate against gays and lesbians. In both cases, you're saying that laws that apply to everybody else shouldn't apply to you.
The law at issue says that if you're going to open a business, you have to serve everyone on equal terms. If you can't do that, then maybe baking cakes is not an occupation you should pursue.
Interestingly, this post *is* about what policymakers want to do.
I've cited the language in the post and bill boasting of the bill's support for religious freedom and the great respect for people with traditional marriage views.
So, *as a policy matter,* why doesn't the bill live up to its (as it were) billing and protect small business owners who hold the views the bill's language professes to respect? Why doesn't the bill live up to the post's own headline, "The Triumph of Respecting Marriage and Religious Liberty?" Why doesn't the bill do what the post claims it does - conciliate the "other side"?
This law does not impose any requirements of any sort on the necks — or elbows, navels, or shinbones — of any small businesses.
If the bill didn't have that clause, small businesses would face exactly the same situation.
Margrave, you've completely ignored my question about how to draw a principled line for which religious beliefs get you a free pass from obeying the law and which don't. You do agree, I hope, that there is no First Amendment right for a small business owner to launder crime proceeds even if his religion tells him to. What puts him on one side of the line and the baker on the other?
There's a long list of things you don't get to do even if your religion requires you to. If you want an exemption, the burden is on you to show why you're entitled to it.
As I mentioned, the bill is being sold in terms of religious freedom and deep respect for dissenters.
You’ve ignored that this post, and the bill, are policy issues, and that the bill is being pushed as a glorious accommodation of the religious freedom of the “other side.”
“You do agree, I hope, that there is no First Amendment right for a small business owner to launder crime proceeds even if his religion tells him to.”
And we agree, I suppose, that Congress can’t require children to recite from Mao's Little Red Book every day.
You should look up the RFRA standards, which have been extensively covered on this very blog, and then ask whether I disagree with those standards (spoiler: I agree with them).
But this is a policy question about a bill which is misleadingly promoted as respecting religious freedom.
It respects religious freedom for religious institutions.
The local Baptist church is in the business of selling Baptist religion, which includes opposition to gay rights. So, it would be wrong to require them to host gay weddings since doing so would violate the core of why the exist.
The business of the local baker is baking cakes. Telling him that he can't discriminate against gays does not go to the core purpose of why his business exists. And since promoting anti-gay prejudice is not a core part of baking cakes, his rights are far less than those of a business for whom it is a core part of why they exist.
I am aware that you’re not interested in conciliating the “other side,” but the author of this post claims he is, and that the bill is conciliatory. Indeed the language of the bill expresses deep respect for the sincerity of dissenters and their “decent and honorable…premises.”
So I am addressing myself to that – the bill omits the most obvious form of conciliation and doesn’t live up to its own hype of respecting the religious freedom of these concededly honorable people.
Your argument is "They say they respect me, but unless I get every single thing I want — even things completely unrelated to this bill — that proves they're liars."
I simply invite the reader to compare and contrast the rhetoric of this post and the bill with what the bill actually does.
If I had no interest in conciliating the other side, I would be arguing that Baptist churches should be required to perform gay marriages. But that is not my position. And there are people who do take that position, and your complaint simply ignores how much compromising that side did to get to this bill.
As David pointed out, your real argument is that religion should get 100% of everything it asks for, and in politics that never happens. What you're demonstrating is a massive sense of entitlement. This bill imposes no federal requirement that cake bakers make cakes for gay weddings; it leaves that question up to the states. And at the state level, this is a business regulation just like any other business regulation. Maybe some other baker doesn't want to comply with labeling requirements. Tough.
Usually when someone starts trying to explain what "your real argument" consists of, what follows is a silly distortion which can be safely dismissed.
OK, so explain how it's a distortion. What did I say that misrepresents your position?
The part where you claimed: "your real argument is that religion should get 100% of everything it asks for."
Nothing in the bill requires any business to provide goods or services to any wedding, irrespective of the sex or orientation of the marrying parties.
Sounds like you don't understand how legislation actually works.
You change law A. Law B's application depends on law A. Ergo, law B's application has changed, without law A having to say anything about law B.
Uh, statutory language matters. What word or group of words in the text of the proposed Senate bill do you claim requires any business to provide goods or services to any wedding? Please be specific.
Still waiting, Brett. For someone who claims to understand how legislation actually works, your silence speaks loudly.
No. Nothing in this law "requires" anything in that regard. It does not change the status quo.
The title of this post is “The Triumph of Respecting Marriage and Religious Liberty.” The bill under discussion makes a big deal of protecting religious nonprofits while protesting great respect for the sincerely-held beliefs of religious objectors.
The author of the post makes much of the bill’s attempt to conciliate the “other side.”
Yes, it’s relevant to consider whether the bill *really* conciliates the other side, or represents a triumph of religious freedom, or reflects great and enduring respect for the views of dissenters.
What the makers of the bill *want* to do is made quite clear. They're already telling us what exemptions they're willing to concede and which exemptions they're not willing to concede.
Is all of that a longwinded way of conceding that you were wrong when you said that the bill required goods and services?
I said the makers of the bill *want* to require goods and service, and I provided pretty good reasons to show why this is the case.
You did not. I mean, obviously many Democrats do want to add sexual orientation to all public accommodations laws; I'm not denying that. (Not enough to even bring such a bill to a vote; HRC¹ is still upset that the Equality Act has gone nowhere.) Many Democrats also want to outlaw fossil fuels. But neither one has anything to do with this bill.
¹That's Human Rights Campaign, the primary gay lobbying group, not Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Again, look at the rhetoric of this post, and the bill, and compare it to what the bill actually does. A study in contrasts. Not only that, it shows the SSM supporters’ idea of what generous concessions to the other side consist of.
The exemption of religious organizations is their idea of generosity to their “honorable” opponents. Even when they’re in a conciliating mood – and boasting of all the concessions they’re making to religious freedom – they *still* can’t bring themselves to give explicit and unambiguous protection to small business.
That’s as clear as it gets – there will be no concessions to small businesses except letting them roll the dice on RFRA litigation, paying the expenses, and *maybe* being allowed to keep the benefits of a judicial victory, *if* they get one.
What the bill "actually does" is repeal DOMA, protect validly-entered-into gay marriages, and also expressly confirm that religious institutions are not covered by public accommodations laws.
What the bill doesn't do: impose any requirements of any sort on any private business.
Check the rhetoric of the post and the reassuring language of the bill's preamble, and contrast it with what the bill actually does.
And look at the title of this post.
What the bill “actually does” is repeal DOMA, protect validly-entered-into gay marriages, and also expressly confirm that religious institutions are not covered by public accommodations laws.
What the bill doesn’t do: impose any requirements of any sort on any private business.
So this requires the bakers to make sodomy cakes?
Not if they’re religious nonprofit bakers.
No. It doesn't require anything of bakers.
"So this requires the bakers to make sodomy cakes?"
No. Read the bill. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8404/text
And what on earth is a sodomy cake? There was a movie a few years ago featuring an actor having his way with an apple pie. Is that the relevant antecedent?
Forcing people to violate their religious beliefs is hilarious!
The proposed law does not force anyone to violate religious beliefs. There is no penalty provision.
It's a cake to celebrate the "marriage" of two men who can only consummate their fake marriage through the putrid abuse of the digestive system.
Noory proposes the Defence Of Gastrointestinal Systems Act.
Bill has no protection for bakers or other service providers who want to exercise their freedoms.
It has no protections for robbery victims, New York Jets fans, or people who listen to smooth jazz, either. But since it doesn't do anything to them, why does it need to offer them protection?
Straight people sodomize each other as well. Do they get a cake too?
First thought; so when will states have to recognize each others' carry permits?
Next thought; when will the governments get out of the religious business of marriage?
This would have been a great cause for a Republican congress to pursue!
(It would have been an even better cause to pursue five years ago, but we missed that opportunity.)
I don't think you can really say that you "missed" something if you weren't trying to hit it, and the Republican congressional leadership weren't trying to hit a lot of targets Republican voters wanted them to.
They had the opportunity in 2000-2006 too. They were never serious about it. Even after Bruen, it's clear to me that the 6 or 7 far left states have no intention of ever doing anything to respect the ruling that a lower court doesn't force them to. So New York, California, Maryland, New Jersey and so on will never enter into any reciprocity agreement.
Both reasonable questions. However, I may be able to shed some light on the permit question by citing my state as an example. There are two types of concealed carry permits issued by my state. We also have “constitutional carry” laws but no permit is needed.
Anyway, to the two types of permits, one has reciprocity with other states where the laws are similarly written. The other has no reciprocity agreements. One supposes that senators would like to leave the issue to their state legislatures to recognize permits from other states on a state by state basis rather than have a blanket law requiring recognition.
It might for example require recognizing the permit my state issues that currently has no reciprocity.
As to the question of separating marriage and state, I have been arguing that since I first heard the idea years ago.
Yash the problem with that is that some states, in bad faith, will never agree to recognize other state's permits, because they want to make legally carrying as difficult as possible.
This law is pure symbolism.
If gay marriage is a constitutional right, as current Supreme Court precedent apparently holds, then this law changes nothing.
If gay marriage is not a constitutional right, then Congress has no legal authority to pass this law, and it is a nullity.
It would be ironic if this law were to provide the vehicle to overturn Obergfell where none existed previously.
Why not?
Because absent some constitutional hook, marriage is entirely a state matter?
Who says?
It has a bunch of federal policies already hanging off it.
There are two aspects to this. 1) the way the Federal government recognizes marriage for the purpose of federally managed programs including military members, employees, taxes, etc. And, 2) the full faith and credit clause in the Constitution that extends the "state matter" across state borders.
That means there is a "constitutional hook" (#2) and the Federal government itself is in the marriage-recognizing business in various ways so it, too needs a policy on how it goes about doing that.
To be clear, what's meant by it being a state matter is that it's up to a state what a state does about it.
Now, in theory "full faith and credit" is a constitutional hook, but it's one that seems to lack a barb in the case of many state actions, such as the noted concealed carry permits.
Because a marriage is just like a deadly weapon?
Because it is not within Congress' enumerated powers. It is essentially identical to the Defense of Marriage Act, only with the opposite directive. If one is unconstitutional, then the other must be as well.
Except that Obergefell wasn't about enumerated powers, it was about rights.
A law that infringes a right is unconstitutional.
The opposite law that reaffirms that right would not infringe, and thus not be unconstitutional.
Then this law is unnecessary, since the Supremes made it a constitutional right.
First, unnecessary does not mean unconstitutional.
Second, it's not unnecessary. Don't pretend to be simplistic. Gay marriage as a right is not safe now, and even if it were being doubly sure of a right for future generations is not a bad idea.
After Dobbs, many Republicans said to Democrats, "Oh, if abortion was so important to you, how come you didn't do anything in 50 years to protect it?" So here they're being proactive, just in case Obergefell is ever overturned.
(Which it will not be. That's just horror porn for the left.)
The prospect that Obergefell v. Hodges will be overruled is hardly "horror porn for the left." The reasoning in the opinion of the Court in Dobbs calls into question every individual liberty presently guaranteed by the substantive due process doctrine. Justice Thomas in his concurrence there merely said the quiet part out loud.
Abandoning Obergefell would not even require state legislation that would prohibit same sex marriage. The Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit, has affirmed the District Court's granting of summary judgment as to damages liability against Kimberly Jean Davis Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis for her refusal as County Clerk to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/22a0388n-06.pdf
When SCOTUS on October 5, 2020 denied Ms. Davis's petition for certiorari from the denial of her motion to dismiss, Justice Thomas, joined by Justice Alito, lambasted Obergefell. The instant denial of qualified immunity could furnish a rogue Court the opportunity to overrule that inconvenient precedent.
Here is a link to Justice Thomas's statement regarding denial of Ms. Davis's petition for certiorari. https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/10/05/100520zor3204.thomas.pdf
If Obergefell is ever overturned, the reason will be Obergefell itself, because it has no legal basis in the Constitution. Just like Roe. That's the actual horror porn, an act of raw judicial tyranny.
I'm not as worried as not guilty about the near near future, but it doesn't seem off the table farther out.
It seems even farther off the table farther out. The trend is going in the opposite direction. Gay marriage is less and less of an issue.
We just had 25% of the GOP caucus in Washington (25% of the GOP caucus in each house, to be clear) vote to repeal DOMA and codify protections for gay marriage.
DOMA was passed overwhelmingly just 25 years ago. The vote was 342-67 in the House, and 85-14 in the Senate. One Republican — a gay one — out of 277 in Washington voted against it. And now, 25% of the GOP caucus (a much crazier GOP caucus, at that!) is willing to repeal DOMA and enshrine its opposite, even though there's objectively no current need for such a law.
Roe is just not a model for what is going to happen with Obergefell. There's no mass movement to overturn gay marriage. It's becoming more popular.
I’m not citing Roe as a model, though I see how you’d think that. And, to be fair, there wasn't a mass movement against drag queens a few years ago. The right gets angry as a mass movement like it's their job. Which...kinda...
I do think that the Court seems already quite content with being pretty strongly against public opinion; I don’t think that’s the bullwark you take it for these days.
Odds are you’re right; I don’t mind hedging my bets though.
When a SCOTUS majority is willing to play Calvinball, popular support for individual liberties doesn't matter.
SCOTUS has never decided to reverse itself on what is or is not a constitutional right?
Your comment is proof that you don't pay attention and are inexcusably ignorant of current events.
Then you've proven F. D. Wolf's point, the law is pure symbolism. It protects nothing, because what it purports to protect was already protected by the Constitution itself.
It has the same effect as Congress passing law saying "we shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Do you even know how rights work? They're not handed down by Madame Constitution. They come from a Court interpreting said document.
That interpretation can change. Thus this law is doing something.
Do YOU know how rights work?
Here is a hint: The rights of one person can NEVER conflict with the rights of another. If two people think the same action violates their rights -- one of them is wrong.
Sorry, the hint isn't enough - I have no idea where you got that definition of rights from. Seems to ignore civil rights.
It's a standard feature of libertarian rights: The rejection of positive rights is specifically in order to achieve this result.
Rather like mathematicians refuse to divide by zero, libertarians won't acknowledge positive "rights": Because doing so leads to nonsensical and paradoxical results.
"Civil rights," as applied to private businesses, requires that you trample on the rights of private people and entities in order to grant such "rights" to the protected. That's not a right. A right is something that doesn't require the cooperation or resources of anyone else.
Then the law is still doing nothing, because a court that can remove the right to get married can just as easily declare this law unconstitutional in the same stroke. It makes no sense to assume they wouldn't if the court were to overturn Obergfell.
Do you mean in the Michael Scott "I declare bankruptcy!" sense? Otherwise, on what grounds could a court declare this law unconstitutional? Which provision of the constitution does it violate?
It makes perfect sense. "The Constitution is silent on gay marriage; therefore Obergefell is wrong" is not remotely the same thing as "Congress does not have the power to enact this law."
You possess rights by nature of your heartbeat. This preceeds government, which is to say, arrogant people with guns ordering you about because they have the guns.
Then you create a government and grant it certain powers, and no others.
Then you get a supermajority of the population to approve it, as that's the best we have, and if most people cannot agree on a power of government, it probably shouldn't have it. Democracy is just an abstraction of might makes right, and as such, is dangerous. Leaping a 50.1% bare majority is the charismatic demagogue's stock in trade, their superpower.
That's about it.
What you mention are mostly politics.
It's good to expand rights via that. This is in accordance with the above concepts.
It's bad to expand power of government beyond that, which is in violation of that concept.
Lawyers seldom see the difference, as, to the power hungry, my desire to be free from you is equally arbitrary to their desire to lord over me.
Administering federal programs and federal employees is within Congresses enumerated powers. Federal programs like taxes and estate law include provisions based on marital status. Federal employees get marital benefits.
Let’s assume DOMA is unconstitutional because defining marriage in opposition to a state’s definition goes beyond enumerated powers. RMA does not share this shortcoming because it does not define marriage. It only recognizes marriages as defined by the states.
But even if I am wrong, RMA still makes sense in the event that both DOMA and RMA are within Congress's enumerated powers. (as a bulwark against the reversal of Windsor and Obergefell).
It's not within the primary list of Congress' enumerated powers, in Article I, section 8. But it is spelt out in Article IV, section 1: "And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."
You’ve got a hole in your logic. Congress can pass any law they want that doesn’t involve constitutional rights. The limit on them is that they can’t pass a law that violates constitutional rights. Which this bill doesn’t do, so no problem.
"Congress can pass any law they want that doesn’t involve constitutional rights"
This is why the Constitution didn't originally include the Bill of Rights, the framers were concerned people would come to believe the government could do anything outside of enumerated rights, rather than not being able to do anything outside of their enumerated powers.
We've proven their fears justified.
It was astounding to learn that, that the battle was between those who thought a list would let future politicians claim those were the only rights, but that without it, others would claim even those didn't exist.
They did their best, but, you know, ink blots and stuff.
Congress can only pass laws in areas they are specifically given the power to
Section 3 of the RMA is authorized by the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Section 4 does nothing more than accept the definition of marriage from the states for the purpose of federal programs which doesn't strike me as going beyond enumerated powers.
I actually agree -- if created by a state, the Full Faith and Credit Clause would protect such "marriages."
INAL, so my only question is if state constitutional amendments passed in the aughts apply (but I don't think that they can override Full Faith and Credit Clause protections.)
Assuming Obergefell is reversed and some states no longer will recognize same-sex marriages performed in their states (the RMA does not stop them from doing so), they must nonetheless recognize out-of-state same-sex marriages because either 1) the FF&C clause requires it irrespective of what Congress says, or 2) Congress required it in the RMA which was a power authorized by the FF&C clause.
So in your opinion DOMA has no basis to exist.
I think the bill is a statutory backup in the event that current law is reversed or modified by the federal judiciary. Congress has the authority to enforce the Equal Protection Clause vis-a-vis the states granted by the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 5.
The Supreme court has already ruled, IIRC, that Congress' Section 5 power doesn't extend to defending rights the Constitution doesn't protect in the first place.
The right to marry was recognized as being of constitutional dimension (albeit in dictum) 99 years ago. Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923).
You actually quoted the "If gay marriage is a constitutional right" language, and then go on to ignore it?
Uh, marriage -- not necessarily gay marriage -- is a constitutional right embraced by the liberty to which the Fourteenth Amendment refers. A state's treatment of marriage is subject to the Equal Protection Clause.
Except that the Equal Protection Clause was intended to protect similarly situated people in the same situation. It was intended to prevent one set of criminal laws for whites, and another for blacks, for example. It wasn't intended to do most of what the courts have held that it does. Reynolds v. Sims and Plylyer v. Doe being particularly egregious ones.
Does the protection for non-profit religious organizations supersede state law to the contrary? Or is this protection limited to causes of action in federal courts?
It’s amazing to me how many “conservatives” and republicans and self described libertarians are so bothered by freedom for other people.
I expect that out of the progs, but y’all are every bit as bad. At least they’re not running around babbling about the Tree of Liberty and then getting upset when someone actually has some.
As I’ve mentioned, this bill deliberately omits a key part of “freedom for other people,” namely, the right of businesses to decide for themselves whether to cater same-sex wedding ceremonies.
Nonprofit religious corporations – like the members of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities – don’t have to cater SSM ceremonies, but small family businesses, run for profit (or at least trying for a profit in this economy) have no such protection under the bill unless they’re willing to undergo lengthy litigation and find out if RFRA protects them. And even if they “win” they will have to pay considerable legal expenses for their "victory."
Whose freedom is at stake, then?
Demanding this law deal with this other issue you have that remains largely hypothetical is just looking for reasons to be against the law.
"largely hypothetical"
This is quite a remarkable assertion. This "largely hypothetical" issue included a real case which went up to the Supreme Court and is still going on.
"just looking for reasons to be against the law."
You're simply looking for reasons to overlook the problems of the law.
It is, as you admit below, 'a very minor and very rare problem.'
Courts deal with individualized fact patterns like that all the time. Insisting the legislature do so is not understanding how the two branches are different.
It was bevis the lumberjack who called it a very minor and rare problem.
Meanwhile, as I indicated, *if* it’s a minor and rare problem (a silly assumption which I'm only making for the purposes of argument), then there would be no harm in the bill’s authors exempting businesses, simply to reassure the “other side,” as the author of this post declares he wants.
And as I noted insisting that all minor and rare problems be expressly addressed by legislation is either dumb, or a poison pill.
And as I noted, you literally confused me with somebody else.
You seemed to accept bevis' point as given, but if you want to buck it you should consider having evidence.
Evidence of his position?
Just acknowledge you goofed and that you misattributed bevis' statement, which you put in quotes, to me.
Pregnancies resulting from rape and incest are very rare too, but your side has no issue politicizing those.
“A real case”. Yeah, that’s right. One case.
You can’t deny equal protection to an entire class of millions of people because a of a potential issue that might not even occur, and if it does it’ll be very rare and will be dealt with. I don’t understand your obsession with a very minor issue and it makes me wonder if you’re being sincere or hiding your real reason for being so opposed.
Homosexuals were never denied equal protection. They always had the same rights to marry one person of the opposite sex that heterosexuals did. The fact that this legal allowance didn't line up with their preferences doesn't change that
In the world according to Noorondoor, is Pace v. Alabama, 106 U.S. 583 (1883), still good law? The Alabama statutes there imposed the same penalties for miscegenation upon whites and blacks alike.
"Yeah, that’s right. One case."
Add the photographers, the other bakers, the tour guides, the T-shirt makers, and you get a number larger than 1.
Recall that this bill represents the utmost in concession that they want to give. Another poster said that he was making a compromise by allowing churches to operate in accordance with their own doctrines.
Churches and pastors/celebrants were already in the clear. This part of the RMA doesn't change the status quo in that regard. No one has forced a church to hire or keep and LGBT pastor if violated their beliefs.
The bill says nothing about for-profit services run by people with religious beliefs. This is a law about marriage being recognized by the federal and state governments with some compromise language to include churches because they believed same-sex marriages would be forced on them.
Individual congregants running businesses aren't churches. If you want to pass a law giving people's religious beliefs a "get out of being an asshole free card," make that case and pass that law.
“getting out of being an asshole”
Again, you’re not speaking to this particular bill, which admits that dissenters from SSM have “decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises.”
In their desperation to pass this bill, the SSM crowd is forfeiting its treasured monopoly on decency and honor. Sorry, you missed your chance to play the “asshole” card.
By your definition, religious nonprofits, including churches, would be run by assholes if they refuse to solemnize gay unions. Yet the bill protects them.
“compromise language to include churches because they believed same-sex marriages would be forced on them.”
You prove too much. If you admit it’s legitimate for this bill to conciliate those who fear "same-sex marriage would be forced on them," then I get to ask why the bill doesn’t extend to businesses as well as religious nonprofits.
"Individual congregants running businesses aren’t churches."
That's why they need specific protection.
A libertarian law would have let bakers and photographers decline to participate in offensive ceremonies. No, this is all about forcing the gay agenda on others.
No, it isn’t. It’s about allowing gays the same marriage rights as not gays. It’s that simple.
Y’all are focusing on a very minor and very rare problem and trying to use it to deny something to millions of people. Gay marriage has been the law for several years and how many of those service issues have occurred? 20? Maybe? All of our freedoms can lead to conflict with other people, so by your standards we shouldn’t be allowed any of them. Straight couples get into disputes with service providers all the time. Guess we should outlaw straight marriages too.
Bottom line is that your commitment to freedom only extends to people of whom you approve. Which means you don’t really believe in the principle of freedom.
If the harassment and legal vindictiveness toward small businesses is minor and rare, then the SSM side should have no trouble dropping the matter.
But try to cut small businesses some slack in these minor, rare cases and we hear cries of “Public accommodations! Jim Crow! Undermining civil rights!”
The very bill we’re discussing could have had an explicit carve-out for small business, if it was a minor matter. Why are they reserving the right to harass only twenty businesses?
They found time to exempt the big religious corporations, but not the 20 or so dissenting businesses?
A whole lot of 'will no-one think of the homophobes' going on here.'
I hate this good thing until you do this other thing is an *awful* argument.
"this good thing"
What's good about compulsory validation of other people's habits?
Is that what marriage is to you?
Compelling small businesses to cater same-sex ceremonies is a bad thing.
Homophobes have rights too, but the fear and paranoia of homophobes that they might one day be asked to bake a cake for a gay person is no reason not to protect gay marriage. After all, if one baker, somewhere, decided they were no longer going to bake cakes for straight people, that’d be no reason to dismantle straight marriage.
"that they might one day be asked to bake a cake for a gay person"
It's already been in the Supreme Court and was covered here.
https://reason.com/volokh/2018/06/04/the-masterpiece-cakeshop-decision-leaves/
Nothing in H.R. 8404 compels small businesses to cater same-sex ceremonies. Why drag this red herring across the trail?
The post boasts of the bill's protections for religious freedom, the bill makes specific exemptions for religious nonprofits, professes respect for dissenters, and makes a show of preserving RFRA (even though small businesses will have to wade through expensive litigation to assert their RFRA rights, with no guarantee of victory).
Why not ask the post's author, and the authors of the bill, why they included all this supposedly irrelevant material?
How about interracial marriages?
This bill exempts religious organizations from serving any marriage they don't want to. Do you want to see that extended to all businesses? Mike Lee has sponsored an amendment that extends protections, but only as applied to same-sex and polygamous marriages.
“How about interracial marriages?”
How about showing where they’re equivalent with same-sex unions.
I didn’t make an argument, one way or the other. I merely asked your opinion. That being said, it sounds like you think businesses should be given protection from having to serve same-sex marriages, but not from serving interracial marriages (i.e., you agree with Lee).
The distinction between SSM and interracial marriage seems clearly implied by the bill:
“Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.”
Obviously, they don’t say that about interracial-marriage opponents.
So, as acknowledged by the bill, dissenters on the subject of SSM, *unlike* opponents of interracial marriage, are “reasonable and sincere people [with]…decent and honorable…premises,” and they should get “proper respect.”
It seems that Lee and the others simply want to provide that “proper respect” with their amendment.
Would you like the “decent and honorable” language struck from the bill? I expect so. But while it’s there it’s a standing rebuke to your moral equivalence.
It appears your position is not what I thought it was at first: small businesses ought to have the right to pick and chose their customers (a libertarian view). Instead it appears you think they should only have that right when doing so is a manifestation of a "decent and honorable" belief - and that doesn't apply to interracial marriages.
While I'm not thrilled by the language, I am OK with it as part of the compromise. It does leave unanswered what "proper respect" ought to be for these "decent and honorable" beliefs. The unamended bill came to the conclusion that an exemption was the proper respect only for non-profit religious businesses.
You're not the intended audience for this bill. It's deliberately written so as to lure moderates into supporting it.
I say "lure" because the bill is not in fact moderate. It manifests the agenda of the sponsors to attack religious small business owners ("no, you're not supposed to notice that until we reach Phase 2!").
One person's attack on a business is another person's belief that having a service available takes precedence over the objections of the business. You endorsed the former for same-sex marriages, but the latter for interracial marriages. The bill's sponsors endorsed the latter for both. Different people draw the line at different places, no surprise there. And although you don't like it, those who agreed to vote for the bill because of the amendment drew the line at yet another place (requiring secular businesses is not attack, but requiring religious businesses is).
It's written to "lure moderates into supporting it" by… being moderate.
This goes beyond your loathing of the very idea of compromise to outright lying. This bill does nothing to affect small business owners, religious or otherwise. It affects them not one whit. There are no "phases." States that ban anti-gay discrimination don't need this bill to enforce those laws; states that don't ban anti-gay discrimination aren't affected by this law.
If all you have to go on are hysterical accusations, your case must be pretty weak.
The bill contains a clause that “Consistent with the First Amendment to the Constitution, nonprofit religious organizations…shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage”
Why is this language necessary? I mean, they're just repealing DOMA and having states recognize other states' marriages - by your logic that wouldn't affect religious organizations at all. Yet they provided these guarantees to religious organizations anyway.
Why no express guarantees for businesses? You would have the world believe that it's because they simply haven't gotten around to that issue yet, so it's irrelevant. But that proves too much, because by the same reasoning the exemption of religious nonprofits is irrelevant because they haven't gotten around to this issue yet.
"Can't you feel that nice, warm summer shower on your leg!"
It's not!
It was put in there to make at least 10 Republican senators feel politically safer about supporting the bill, making it harder to demagogue it by saying, "This bill is going to be used to force churches to marry gay people."
That would not be a correct statement of my position.
Could be. It's also possible they felt they had enough leverage to preemptively change the effect of the proposed Equality Act.
So you're acknowledging that the bill has religious-freedom provisions. I simply said these provisions are inadequate. You think they're unnecessary.
But read the post - here's the author's (Pollyannish, in my view) take on the bill:
"But as anyone who's worked on legislation can tell you, the other side doesn't always trust that courts will interpret language in the way it should be interpreted. (Sometimes, they're right about that.) Their fears may seem exaggerated but you often learn they are genuine, and if you really don't have the intention of producing or risking the result the other side fears (e.g., losing tax exemptions, requiring goods and services), and if you can address them with minimal harm to the substance of the bill, then it's both right and maybe politically necessary to do so."
The sponsors realized they had to have *some* language addressing the issue of "requiring goods and services" in order to get Republican votes. Irrelevant or not. And being cheap dates, the 12 Republicans accepted an inadequate provision on the subject.
If it is such a small issue, then why not offer freedom for non-gays? They don't. That tells me everything. It is not about allowing gays to have rights.
What? Non-gays can’t marry whoever they want? Oh, snap. I’ve been thinking my wife and I have been married for 38 years. You’re telling me it’s illegal?
"We'll bankrupt your small business, but at least we won't take your spouse away! We're generous like that."
Your complaint is that this law doesn't change the status quo regarding small businesses. Are they being bankrupted now? Sure doesn't look like it!
You take refuge in melodrama.
"First I will show that this isn't happening. Then I will show that it's just a few isolated incidents. Stay tuned for the next installment of my argument."
So this isn't presently even an issue; it's a slippery slope you're demanding be addressed before you lend your support to this thing you claim you support.
I'm beginning to think your hyperfocus is more about blinding yourself to the rest of the law than any actual manifest concern.
“this thing you claim you support”
When did I claim to support it? Or are you conflating me with Bevis the Lumberjack again?
Your reasons for supporting it don't stand up. At all.
So do you have different reasons, or no reasons at all?
“Your reasons for supporting it”
…don’t exist, because I oppose it.
As I've said before, the problem isn't that homosexuals are allowed to get married. The problem is that it's legal for men to insert their penises into other men's butts and ejaculate inside. That shouldn't be legal for anyone, married or unmarried.
No human, gay or straight, has thought about gay sex more then you.
Yep. Nothing says liberty like giving the government the power to say where you can and can’t put your penis.
The right to place your penis ends at the tip of my nose.
If that's where it ends up, the person on the other end of that penis must be drunk. They missed their mark by about two inches.
"As I’ve said before, the problem isn’t that homosexuals are allowed to get married. The problem is that it’s legal for men to insert their penises into other men’s butts and ejaculate inside. That shouldn’t be legal for anyone, married or unmarried."
Do you contend that it should be illegal for a man to insert his penis into a woman's butt and ejaculate inside? Many couples do that.
For the first ten years of my married life, my then-wife and I committed a felony punishable by not less than five and not more than fifteen years imprisonment each time we engaged in oral sex. See, Rose v. Locke, 423 U.S. 48 (1975). (The statute, which included no marital exception, was repealed in 1989 as part of a complete revision of Tennessee's criminal code.) What business did the State of Tennessee have in punishing that conduct, when engaged in voluntarily by adult participants?
Yes, I do contend that anal sex should be illegal for everyone. But it's relatively rare among heterosexual couples. For gay men, it's the cornerstone of their existence.
"Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another."
Relatively rare as a percentage of all heterosexual acts, perhaps.
But in raw incident numbers? Sorry dude, there are more straight butt-fuckers then gay people at all.
Dale Carpenter is a lying piece of shit
If you think there's something incorrect, maybe say what it is so people can talk about it with you.
Rather than just being a sad angry frustrated Internet man.
And in other news
Woman who married rag doll says relationship is 'hanging on a thread' after he 'cheated'
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/woman-who-married-rag-doll-28497632.amp
I have no appetite for LGBT activists using the term "cruel" in reference to their opponents, especially following the torment and harassment that they inflicted on Jack Phillips and his family for years.
Good thing your comment about Jack Phillips isn't true then.
They consider it "cruel" if told that no one wants to hear them whine in their flamboyant voice while dancing half naked at a parade, but not "cruel" to force a baker to make them a cake to celebrate their anal sex.
Cut then some slack. They're coming off many millenia of being killed for it, and jailed.
Is it surprising they screech loudly against that interminable oppression block, and take a few legal cheap shots to boot?
Scotty, noting the Klingon Empire was collapsing: "Sir, they're dying!"
Kirk: "THEN LET THEM DIE!"
Cruel bigots don't like being called cruel bigots. News at 11.
This is self-evidentiary, alright - just look at all the anti-semites that get upset by Bernstein's posts, or the racists that don't like being criticized for their ugly attacks on Thomas.
Always interesting to see one of the VC’ers trying to compliment Democrats when they do something the VC’ers wholeheartedly agree with in the face of (mostly) Republican opposition. Dale almost says they did the right thing. Almost!!
Well, they did almost do the right thing. What's wrong with noticing that?
Edit.
"Can that same spirit of mutual respect and accomodation animate future discussions of LGBT policy issues?"
Why the 'T?' I thought this was about gay marriage.
He who defines terms wins. Wake up.
And lesbian marriage. And bi marriage. And trans marriage. Probably why we just call it "marriage" or, if one must distinguish, "same-sex marriage."
"millions of children gay people are raising" - hyperbole or based in fact? I'd bet it's more like thousands, though it's immaterial to the article.
Going back through the comments here, there are a lot of people that seem confused on the status of non-discrimination in public accomodation law.
The US as a whole has such laws, they cover race, ethnicity, sex, national origin, religion, and a few other categories. They do not include sexual orientation or gender identity.
All US states have such laws that cover those same categories. Some go further, such as Colorado including sexual orientation and gender identity.
People get sued under these laws all the time. The vast majority of cases have nothing to do with gay folk. The whole baker/photographer/florist nonsense? Is a half-dozen cases over the last decade and change (Elane Photography got started in 2006, for example).
This status quo, that the federal government does not include sexual orientation or gender identity in it's non-discrimination in public accommodation laws, that some states do, and some states do not, is unchanged by this law.
Simply put, with or without this bill, refusing a customer for being gay is still legal in Texas and illegal in Colorado. If you are presenting this bill as changing that status quo, you are lying.
“The whole baker/photographer/florist nonsense? Is a half-dozen cases over the last decade and change (Elane Photography got started in 2006, for example).”
You may need to adjust your talking points. In fact, why not do a 180 and say that refusals of SSM service are so pervasive that it creates a situation urgently in need of legislation:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3726703
Of course, as far as I can discern from this study, over half of wedding businesses are willing to cater gay weddings, but think of the inconvenience of running across a business which is in the minority of objectors!
There’s the line you should take. It would certainly be more reality-based than claiming that it’s just a few cases.
I suppose it comes down to a value judgment on who should bear the burden of this situation.
Should same-sex couples have to take a bit more time to find wedding businesses willing to accommodate their tastes?
Or should the government threaten wedding businesses with crippling lawsuits and legal expenses if they won’t cater to same-sex couples, even if the business owners are acting based on what the bill under discussion acknowledges are “honorable religious or philosophical premises”?
creates a situation urgently in need of legislation.
You continue to be utterly frantic about a situation that appears only in your imagination.
I see why they call you Gaslightro.
Apart from the bigotry of what Jack Phillips refused to do, I have wondered about the wisdom of the gay couple wanting to purchase a food product from someone who likely loathed their very existence.
Could you be more specific?
I have wondered about the wisdom of the gay couple wanting to purchase a food product from someone who likely loathed their very existence.
I don't know for certain, but I would expect that there was a discrimination complaint filed when the couple was refused service, rather than them continuing to try and get a cake from that one baker. In other words, they didn't know his feelings about them until afterwards.
^ This.
For quite a few of us, it's easy to pass as straight. This is because straight people tend to assume everyone is just like them. So if I watch what I say and stick to non-specific pronouns for my partner, then I'll be treated just like every other straight dude in the store. But if I say anything that gives me away, things can change quickly. I've been refused service on multiple occasions, for example, because the business figured out my sexual orientation. One of those places was a Red Robin restaurant in Phoenix, AZ. I've never stepped foot in another Red Robin since.
Since we're often assumed to be straight, we are more likely to be surprised when, after multiple prior visits, our custom is refused because of our sexual orientation.
“with or without this bill, refusing a customer for being gay is still legal in Texas and illegal in Colorado”
The point is that the bill could have provided security for the future by disavowing any attempt to attack private businesses at some later date, an intent already proclaimed by lots of Congresscritters.
They did this with religious nonprofits. Why not just add a slight amendment applying this to businesses too?
Because you want to come along later and attack businesses in Texas and throughout the Union.
You just don't like anyone discussing Stage 2 while we're supposed to be discussing Stage 1.
After all, as I believe I’ve pointed out, this is a bill which is supposedly not only about recognizing out-of state SSM, but about giving advance assurances about religious freedom. This bill is sold as proactively avoiding future religious-freedom conflicts.
What is society’s benefit from protecting bigots that would like to withhold food, shelter, and medical treatment from people based on who their god(s) commands them to abuse? And if it’s only right to exempt religious people running private businesses from public accommodation laws if their victim is LGBT, then why wouldn’t we also want exempt religious people who wish to discriminate based on race, national origin, or even other religions? Why just narrowly target one’s LGBT neighbors for abuse by a narrow group of people? Let’s let the growing number of non-religious Americans deny cakes to gun-toting Christians!
I hear your pain, but you’re letting your personal anguish get in the way of clear thinking.
The bill doesn’t refer to “food, shelter and medical treatment.” It refers to “services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage.” So even if the bill applied to businesses and not just religious nonprofits, then it wouldn't deny anyone food/shelter/medical treatment.
(I have even heard it rumored that there are religious people dedicated to providing health care to others, and that this has included help to AIDS patients.)
And as I’ve pointed out before, the bill admits that opponents of SSM, unlike opponents of interracial marriage, can be “reasonable and sincere people [with]…decent and honorable…premises.”
I would amend the bill to accommodate these “decent and honorable” people even if they happen to run businesses. Others, I suppose, would want to amend the bill to remove the favorable references to SSM opponents and instead call them the 2nd incarnation of Adolf Hitler
Should the government buy them all ponies, too, just to prove it really likes them?
Leaving them alone is like buying them ponies? What a clown-world response.
The bill should simply live up to its own hype of protecting the religious freedom of these concededly “decent and honorable” people.